Why Starmer can afford to be less timid on Brexit – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Yes, good examples.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The SDLP are supposed to be a "sister-party" to UK Labour, and the UUP have had a kind of "on-off" relationship with the Tories since 1972.EPG said:
A more tethered LD link would be harmful for Alliance as they would begin to ship blame inward from the "national" party. Itself a problematic word in NI, because around a third of voters don't feel nationally British and more on top of that don't feel mainstream British parties could represent them effectively. Most of the others think that mainstream British parties would overwhelm and betray their unionist priorities like in the 70s.Gardenwalker said:The Alliance is of course affiliated to the LDs and it would be great to see them form part of a progressive coalition.
In my view we need to “normalise” Northern Ireland and see some of their politicians in national roles.
The SDLP didn't get on with UK Labour in the 70s due to the security services policy. They also have a bad habit of on-off relationships with Irish Labour, Fianna Fáil and even liaisons with Fine Gael who used to get on best with the moderates in the Ulster Unionists.
The UUP didn't have much leverage even after Major was being tested by the Maastricht rebels. Part of the series of events that made unionists ask, what's the point of you?
Then there was UCUNF in 2010 which prompted the UUP's only MP to quit the party, and her voters agreed and chose her over UCUNF. The Conservatives now stand absentee paper candidates and hacked-off UUP exiters, and get two or three per cent of the CoI professional vote.1 -
Blair had been Shadow Home Secretary, Cameron was Shadow Education Secretary and involved in high level Westminster politics since advising Major and Lamont. Both were also of course Leader of the Opposition before being elected PMAndy_JS said:
She's almost the same age that Blair and Cameron were when they became prime minister, and obviously older than they were when they became party leader.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
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4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.
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Wouldn’t it be good if nobody cared about the religious leanings of anyone, whether in politics or not.HYUFD said:
Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.Carnyx said:
Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.Andy_JS said:
She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.Theuniondivvie said:Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.
Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM
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Please, enough about Gove’s Willie tonight.williamglenn said:
Gove could be her Willie Whitelaw.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.
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Hasn't it dawned on you that being a Minister under Mr Johnson is a positive demerit?HYUFD said:
Blair had been Shadow Home Secretary, Cameron was Shadow Education Secretary and involved in high level Westminster politics since advising Major and Lamont.Andy_JS said:
She's almost the same age that Blair and Cameron were when they became prime minister, and obviously older than they were when they became party leader.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.1 -
Even if he were a svengali figure, he might very quickly find himself booted once Kemi got started, as many svengalis before him have.Foxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.
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Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth0 -
Inexperienced is a fair criticism for people to hold - she has been an MP for only 5 years and Junior Minister for 2 years - but young is not.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.
She's the same age as RIshi, who only leaped into the Cabinet because his boss quit, and of Braverman, only 2 years younger than Cameron when he became PM.0 -
No, I am very interested in itFairliered said:
Wouldn’t it be good if nobody cared about the religious leanings of anyone, whether in politics or not.HYUFD said:
Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.Carnyx said:
Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.Andy_JS said:
She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.Theuniondivvie said:Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.
Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM0 -
On topic, there's a good reason that Starmer is timid on Brexit. He's made the judgement that the Tories will be desperate at the next GE to say that Labour backs the return of FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, and he's petrified of this because he thinks that if they succeed Labour will fail to win numerous marginal seats. Conversely, the Tories are convinced they'll get another majority if they can persuade the public that Labour wants FOM back. So Starmer's trying to kill it stone dead.
Talk about the Single Market, the Customs Union, close relations with the EU and so on are not the issue. Labour can't afford to be seen as advocating the return of FOM at the moment. So he's avoiding anything that could give the Tories the FOM ammunition - including SM, CU etc.
You may not like it (I'm not very keen myself, as a pro-EU chap). But it's good politics, because, unfortunately, he's probably right. For the next GE.1 -
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth2 -
On Kemi, I think she has promise, and I would be really interested to see her as Tory leader. But give her a few cabinet roles first, let her find her feet and build her profile and ideas.2
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I agree with all that, but it makes her a loose cannon, not a puppet.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.0 -
I would argue everything he has done has been "good politics" despite what people on here sayNorthern_Al said:On topic, there's a good reason that Starmer is timid on Brexit. He's made the judgement that the Tories will be desperate at the next GE to say that Labour backs the return of FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, and he's petrified of this because he thinks that if they succeed Labour will fail to win numerous marginal seats. Conversely, the Tories are convinced they'll get another majority if they can persuade the public that Labour wants FOM back. So Starmer's trying to kill it stone dead.
Talk about the Single Market, the Customs Union, close relations with the EU and so on are not the issue. Labour can't afford to be seen as advocating the return of FOM at the moment. So he's avoiding anything that could give the Tories the FOM ammunition - including SM, CU etc.
You may not like it (I'm not very keen myself, as a pro-EU chap). But it's good politics. For the next GE.1 -
No need to be dicktatorial about it.OnboardG1 said:
Please, enough about Gove’s Willie tonight.williamglenn said:
Gove could be her Willie Whitelaw.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.0 -
Wouldn’t it be good if MPs with principles, like Aaron, were able to defy national swings and get/stay elected. Sadly, history shows it rarely happens.rottenborough said:
Our Aaron turned on Johnson over the lying about parties in lockdown. iirc he had personal experience of missing a funeral or some such whilst Johnson was on the lash.ping said:
Yip.northern_monkey said:FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…
Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.Scott_xP said:TOP EXCL in today's Paper
Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.
Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/
I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.
On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.
That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.
She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?
Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.
Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.
The naïveté of Aaron Bell - and the other red wall tories who turned on Johnson is incredible. He was the best they were gonna get, policy-wise. They should have kept their head down, played the game and begged for pork. It was deeply unpleasant, but that was the game that had to be played.
I’ve never been a Johnson supporter, but called them out at the time - to universal derision on PB.
They’ve fked their constituents. And probably lost their seats.
Some things are are above the pork barrel.2 -
Spoke to my Local MP, who while he hasn't declared yet, said he is a big fan of Jeremy Hunt, said he is seen as the most competent and has good support amongst many back benchers, might be a bit of a dark horse for a flutter.1
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Agreed, personally I don't think anyone should be allowed to stand for PM who has not been a Cabinet Minister or Leader of the Oppositionnumbertwelve said:On Kemi, I think she has promise, and I would be really interested to see her as Tory leader. But give her a few cabinet roles first, let her find her feet and build her profile and ideas.
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And what happens if Raab C. Brexit is, for example, a Jedi Knight or a Free Presbyterian (Continuing) who doesn't hold with Erastian nonsense like letting Caesar have his paws on what is God?HYUFD said:
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth0 -
She might well be surprised if she ends up a front runner, and only wanted to get a promotion.numbertwelve said:On Kemi, I think she has promise, and I would be really interested to see her as Tory leader. But give her a few cabinet roles first, let her find her feet and build her profile and ideas.
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Rather surprised he's not standing for PM, all the same.Luckyguy1983 said:
No need to be dicktatorial about it.OnboardG1 said:
Please, enough about Gove’s Willie tonight.williamglenn said:
Gove could be her Willie Whitelaw.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.1 -
Should we read anything into having Laura Pidcock Grant Shapps and Rebecca Long Bailey all educated at Manchester Metropolitan University? Is it to become the new 'Oxford' for the political class?HYUFD said:
That is like switching your scientist of choice from Stephen Hawking to Richard Hammond!TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
It would also be quite a shock to have a PM educated at...Manchester Met1 -
Then the non Church of England PM has to appoint a new Church of England Lord Chancellor to replace themCarnyx said:
And what happens if Raab C. Brexit is, for example, a Jedi Knight or a Free Presbyterian (Continuing) who doesn't hold with Erastian nonsense like letting Caesar have his paws on what is God?HYUFD said:
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth0 -
All the candidates must believe they have at least around 30 supporters which is a mathematical impossibility given how many are supporting Sunak. So a lot of MPs must be telling porkies to various candidates about whom they're supporting.0
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Such a rule may be unnecessary in the sense in the modern era I don't think anyone ever has become PM without that experience anyway. MPs don't want someone without experience entirely (even Tugendhat has a chairmanship).HYUFD said:
Agreed, personally I don't think anyone should be allowed to stand for PM who has not been a Cabinet Minister or Leader of the Oppositionnumbertwelve said:On Kemi, I think she has promise, and I would be really interested to see her as Tory leader. But give her a few cabinet roles first, let her find her feet and build her profile and ideas.
There's always the unlikely scenario of a LOTO losing their seat even as their party wins an election you'd need to account for.1 -
Ashcroft seems to be a Kemi fan
That could be a help in Tory circles0 -
Most Conservatives are Conservative and Unionist. I suspect our friend @HYUFD is Unionist and Conservative.Cookie said:
Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.Carnyx said:
Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...FrankBooth said:
That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?EPG said:and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.
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I agree with you. Regardless of her merits, electing somebody like Badenoch may be a risk worth taking when in opposition. But when the election is for the PM, it isn't.HYUFD said:
Blair had been Shadow Home Secretary, Cameron was Shadow Education Secretary and involved in high level Westminster politics since advising Major and Lamont. Both were also of course Leader of the Opposition before being elected PMAndy_JS said:
She's almost the same age that Blair and Cameron were when they became prime minister, and obviously older than they were when they became party leader.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.5 -
Most people think this, yes, of course.Foxy said:
And it isn't the electoral kryptonite that the GBNews crowd think. Shapps and Mordaunt are pretty much in line with mainstream polling on this. Most people are fairly chilled about it as an issue. There are some complexities but basically most Britons think Trans people should be allowed to live as they choose, provided they are fairly polite about it.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed.dixiedean said:
It's the best answer I've heard to the question.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
I spoke to a pollster not so long ago and they said over the last year they must have polled 50,000 people and nobody has ever mentioned trans issues as the most important/top three issues facing the country.
It's the new phone hacking.
https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/research/britons-and-gender-identity/
Most people also think people who are clearly men but call themselves women should stay out of women's toilets or sporting events or hospital wards. And that we are perhaps being led down the wrong path when we are told about a flasher exposing 'her' penis. And that we ought be perhaps a tad concerned with the trans messaging being put about in schools, and wonder why so many autistic kids are transitioning.
There have been people who have genuinely changed sex for decades. They are not very numerous and not really an issue. But they are not really the nub of what 'trans matters' are about.4 -
Until they all become PM, no.Roger said:
Should we read anything into having Laura Pidcock Grant Shapps and Rebecca Long Bailey all educated at Manchester Metropolitan University? Is it to become the new 'Oxford' for the political class?HYUFD said:
That is like switching your scientist of choice from Stephen Hawking to Richard Hammond!TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
It would also be quite a shock to have a PM educated at...Manchester Met
Though we would need to keep an eye on OGH's blood pressure if he has to write thread headers on 'Why do almost all our PMs come from Man Met?' rather than 'Why do almost all our PMs come from Oxford (my alma mater)?'1 -
Part of the fun. You'd want to spread your bets in terms of possible future patronage, anyway.Andy_JS said:All the candidates must believe they have at least around 30 supporters which is a mathematical impossibility given how many are supporting Sunak. So a lot of MPs must be telling porkies to various candidates about whom they're supporting.
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Religion is not discussed in Scotland because it becomes too hard to track the Presbyterian denominations.Carnyx said:
And what happens if Raab C. Brexit is, for example, a Jedi Knight or a Free Presbyterian (Continuing) who doesn't hold with Erastian nonsense like letting Caesar have his paws on what is God?HYUFD said:
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth0 -
To a certain degree, calling all this stuff a 'culture war' actually trivialises it. It is important stuff.Cookie said:
I don't think we need to get caught up in some culture war either. But I don't feel like I'm on the side trying to have a culture war. I'm on the side which was fine with culture as it was.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
It has to be dealt with in a more subtle way though, not as the centrepiece of your whole electoral strategy.
6 -
If he got into the members vote he would lose, even to the guy who no one has heard of.MPartridge said:Spoke to my Local MP, who while he hasn't declared yet, said he is a big fan of Jeremy Hunt, said he is seen as the most competent and has good support amongst many back benchers, might be a bit of a dark horse for a flutter.
0 -
More correctly, only the RCs and Piskies tend to get quoted in the papers because the journos can never remember who is the Moderator of the Kirk of Scotland this year, never mind the Free Kirks.OnboardG1 said:
Religion is not discussed in Scotland because it becomes too hard to track the Presbyterian denominations.Carnyx said:
And what happens if Raab C. Brexit is, for example, a Jedi Knight or a Free Presbyterian (Continuing) who doesn't hold with Erastian nonsense like letting Caesar have his paws on what is God?HYUFD said:
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth1 -
Not really. Some religious practices indicate poor judgement, like a Scientologist candidate for PM. Others are more borderline but inspire at least curiosity (this is where I put Braverman - I'd like to know more about her organisation).Fairliered said:
Wouldn’t it be good if nobody cared about the religious leanings of anyone, whether in politics or not.HYUFD said:
Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.Carnyx said:
Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.Andy_JS said:
She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.Theuniondivvie said:Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.
Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM0 -
In other words, will your vote help the Tories get elected. If not, fuck off, your are irrelevant.HYUFD said:
So as I said you are not the key swing voters he needs ie voted Tory in 2019.Beibheirli_C said:
I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015HYUFD said:
Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voterBeibheirli_C said:If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories
Do you live in the top 150 Labour target seats needed for a Labour majority? If not again Starmer is not really interested in your views1 -
2
-
I think that does Kemi a massive disservice. Though it is true that any candidate would need to spread the load if yhey were to be successful in running the country.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.1 -
That’s a perfect description of Jackass.StuartDickson said:
Even the filthy bastard who poos in his own palm and then eats it?Carnyx said:
Just pick any chimp at Edinburgh Zoo: there are 15 to choose from. Any would be more popular in Scotland than Mr J.StuartDickson said:Penny Mordaunt is favourite for the Scottish Tory vote
Another Scottish Tory source said this regime had been “very divisive” and that Mordaunt would be a “unifying candidate”.
An influential figure among grassroots Scottish Tories said they believed Mordaunt, who was the first female defence secretary, would be “very sellable in Scotland”.
It is understood that Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader, is waiting to see the contenders before backing a candidate.
Yesterday he predicted that the contest would provide a “very strong positive debate” about the future of the party and suggested there should be an overhaul of the UK government to remove Johnson loyalists.
… Liz Truss, the foreign secretary… was met with scorn from several Conservative MSPs, who believe she would be “disastrous” for the Scottish party in a similar vein to Johnson, whose approval ratings dropped to a record low of -71 in Scotland last month.
(The Times; €)0 -
Agreed, when i tried telling him how unpopular Hunt is with the public, he seemed to turn off from the conversation and moved on.Foxy said:
If he got into the members vote he would lose, even to the guy who no one has heard of.MPartridge said:Spoke to my Local MP, who while he hasn't declared yet, said he is a big fan of Jeremy Hunt, said he is seen as the most competent and has good support amongst many back benchers, might be a bit of a dark horse for a flutter.
0 -
Separation of church and state by obfuscation.Carnyx said:
More correctly, only the RCs and Piskies tend to get quoted in the papers because the journos can never remember who is the Moderator of the Kirk of Scotland this year, never mind the Free Kirks.OnboardG1 said:
Religion is not discussed in Scotland because it becomes too hard to track the Presbyterian denominations.Carnyx said:
And what happens if Raab C. Brexit is, for example, a Jedi Knight or a Free Presbyterian (Continuing) who doesn't hold with Erastian nonsense like letting Caesar have his paws on what is God?HYUFD said:
The Lord Chancellor which is also Raabkjh said:
Just out of interest who does the appointing if we don't have a deputy pm (as we haven't for much the time)?HYUFD said:
Of course he is Roman Catholic, once baptised Catholic you are effectively always Catholic to the Vatican.SeaShantyIrish2 said:Boris Johnson - a (religious) faith that passeth all understanding? From his wiki bio:
Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England, but has said that his faith "comes and goes"and that he is not a serious practising Christian.
In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.
Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021. To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.
SSI - No statement by BJ that he's RC. And no requirement to be RC to get married in WC, given that his previous marriages were just rolls in the hay with heretical hussies according to Vatican cross-dressers.
He got married in a Roman Catholic Church not a Church of England Church and Anglican Raab now appoints C of E bishops as Johnson couldn't being loyal ultimately to the Pope not the Queen in religious terms in terms of the head of his church on earth0 -
Seriously that's your 'logo' Michael? Javid's is lame but at least he has a nickname to make use of (I'd have gone for 'Rise of The Saj'). Tugendhat's looks a bit cluttered to me, but at least he's gone for a logo, included his name, and a message to be clear.
0 -
I think I'd support Penny if I had a vote.williamglenn said:Allison Pearson for Penny
https://twitter.com/pennymordaunt/status/1546256620342202370
The nonsense about Oscar Pistorius accidentally having a blink and you miss it appearance in her campaign video shows how scared of her the competition is IMO...2 -
All she needs now is for Laurence Fox, JHB, and Farage to back her.williamglenn said:Allison Pearson for Penny
https://twitter.com/pennymordaunt/status/15462566203422023700 -
Sunak would probably win the members vote against Hunt. Would he win it against any of the other candidates, (excluding the likes of Chishti, Shapps, Braverman).0
-
Once we’re independent they can decide whether they want to join us.BlancheLivermore said:
I’m quite keen on Irish reunification. So long as the Irish unionists are given a home in Scotland. The Scots often say that they’d like more immigrants.Cookie said:
Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.Carnyx said:
Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...FrankBooth said:
That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?EPG said:and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.0 -
I'd say most Conservatives pick and choose which bits of Conservative ideology they like and which they can leave, whereas HYUFD believes fervently in all of them, even the bits like the CofE which are now thoroughly hostile to Conservatism.Fairliered said:
Most Conservatives are Conservative and Unionist. I suspect our friend @HYUFD is Unionist and Conservative.Cookie said:
Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.Carnyx said:
Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...FrankBooth said:
That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?EPG said:and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.1 -
In this case it was will your vote help Labour get elected in a marginal seat, if not F offFairliered said:
In other words, will your vote help the Tories get elected. If not, fuck off, your are irrelevant.HYUFD said:
So as I said you are not the key swing voters he needs ie voted Tory in 2019.Beibheirli_C said:
I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015HYUFD said:
Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voterBeibheirli_C said:If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories
Do you live in the top 150 Labour target seats needed for a Labour majority? If not again Starmer is not really interested in your views0 -
Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.0
-
Even the contradictory ideologies!Cookie said:
I'd say most Conservatives pick and choose which bits of Conservative ideology they like and which they can leave, whereas HYUFD believes fervently in all of them, even the bits like the CofE which are now thoroughly hostile to Conservatism.Fairliered said:
Most Conservatives are Conservative and Unionist. I suspect our friend @HYUFD is Unionist and Conservative.Cookie said:
Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.Carnyx said:
Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...FrankBooth said:
That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?EPG said:and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.1 -
She has Darren Grimes and Spiked-online on her side.Northern_Al said:
All she needs now is for Laurence Fox, JHB, and Farage to back her.williamglenn said:Allison Pearson for Penny
https://twitter.com/pennymordaunt/status/15462566203422023700 -
My MP (Kruger) has declared for Braverman
The only redeeming feature of this is that he might switch to Kemi if Suella gets knocked out first0 -
williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
So that’s what Victor Meldrew looked like when he was 40.williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/15462409220436951071 -
Freddie?BlancheLivermore said:My MP (Kruger) has declared for Braverman
One, two, Freddie's coming for you... 👀0 -
And he wants to bring back fox hunting. He really has fired up the random policy generator.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
This lot seem determined to disprove the theory that no one could be worse than Johnson.2 -
They aren't, Anglicans in England voted 30% more Tory than Labour in 2019 compared to a 12% Tory lead across the UK overallCookie said:
I'd say most Conservatives pick and choose which bits of Conservative ideology they like and which they can leave, whereas HYUFD believes fervently in all of them, even the bits like the CofE which are now thoroughly hostile to Conservatism.Fairliered said:
Most Conservatives are Conservative and Unionist. I suspect our friend @HYUFD is Unionist and Conservative.Cookie said:
Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.Carnyx said:
Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...FrankBooth said:
That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?EPG said:and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.
https://theconversation.com/britains-changing-religious-vote-why-catholics-are-leaving-labour-and-conservatives-are-hoovering-up-christian-support-157922
-1 -
Wouldn’t both sides say that?Cookie said:
I don't think we need to get caught up in some culture war either. But I don't feel like I'm on the side trying to have a culture war. I'm on the side which was fine with culture as it was.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/15460459993276088340 -
O/T
"Uber broke laws, duped police and secretly lobbied governments, leak reveals
More than 124,000 confidential documents leaked to the Guardian
Files expose attempts to lobby Joe Biden, Olaf Scholz and George Osborne
Emmanuel Macron secretly aided Uber lobbying in France, texts reveal
Company used ‘kill switch’ during raids to stop police seeing data
Former Uber CEO told executives ‘violence guarantees success’"
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-files-leak-reveals-global-lobbying-campaign0 -
I saw some research that suggested that Manchester was emerging as a clear second cluster for “future-tech” after London and its satellites, so hopefully skilled grads will ignore Jeremy Hunt.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
0 -
Probably. But that's why while some people are trying to make too much of a cultural war for partisan ends, we are in a cultural skirmish, it isn't simply an invention.ThePoliticalParty said:
Wouldn’t both sides say that?Cookie said:
I don't think we need to get caught up in some culture war either. But I don't feel like I'm on the side trying to have a culture war. I'm on the side which was fine with culture as it was.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/15460459993276088342 -
He's the MP who made the controversial statement about abortion IIRC.BlancheLivermore said:My MP (Kruger) has declared for Braverman
The only redeeming feature of this is that he might switch to Kemi if Suella gets knocked out first0 -
Penny's is the best there. You're instantly drawn to the arrow which looks intriguing...kle4 said:Seriously that's your 'logo' Michael? Javid's is lame but at least he has a nickname to make use of (I'd have gone for 'Rise of The Saj'). Tugendhat's looks a bit cluttered to me, but at least he's gone for a logo, included his name, and a message to be clear.
0 -
Given Gove’s face, that’s wise.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.1 -
IFairliered said:williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
So that’s what Victor Meldrew looked like when he was 40.williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country
forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
Don’t
Believe
It!
1 -
He’s a fiction clearly. This is like when that chap ran on to the pitch at the European final in a United kit.Fairliered said:williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
So that’s what Victor Meldrew looked like when he was 40.williamglenn said:
It’s a good thing he included a photo so that people who’ve never heard of him at least know what he looks like.Andy_JS said:"Rehman Chishti
@Rehman_Chishti
I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."
https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
1 -
He said that women don't have full autonomy over their bodiesAndy_JS said:
He's the MP who made the controversial statement about abortion IIRC.BlancheLivermore said:My MP (Kruger) has declared for Braverman
The only redeeming feature of this is that he might switch to Kemi if Suella gets knocked out first
Women don't. Women sometimes share their body with another body that it's illegal for them to abort
It wasn't as controversial as a lot of people wanted it to be4 -
Everyone needs a Willie, although most candidates are just dicks.williamglenn said:
Gove could be her Willie Whitelaw.HYUFD said:
She is too young and too inexperienced, not yet even a Cabinet Minister or Cttee chair. My point standsFoxy said:
No, I don't think she is anyone's puppet, and it is a bit derogatory to depict her as such.HYUFD said:
Badenoch would be the face, Gove would actually be running the countryrottenborough said:
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
4m
Kemi Badenoch is talented. But we’re taking about Prime Minister of the United Kingdom dealing with the Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, major industrial unrest and and a crisis in Northern Ireland. This isn’t a serious intervention from Michael Gove. It’s student politics.0 -
And there's a huge problem in a nutshell.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
A chunk of the Red Wall Brexit and Boris vote is about older people in small towns hating the way that their children and grandchildren have moved away.
But the world where people stayed in their hometown and worked in whatever the town's industry was and didn't need a degree isn't coming back. In part because young people don't want it that way. But also because the things that make Britain money don't work like that.
But hey, generating prosperity isn't as important as long as we all stay where we were born, eh?2 -
Off topic, but I've been to Trent Bridge today to watch England play India in the last game of the 2020 series. A few observations:
- Trent Bridge is gorgeous. My closest ground, Old Trafford, is many things, but not gorgeous. Trent Bridge, at least in parts, was like being in an idealised version of the 1930s. And the hanging baskets! There is no need, no commercial justification, for so many hanging baskets; they can be there only because people at Nottinghamshire clearly care very much about making the place look gorgeous.
- Indians: it is so deliciously easy to goad Indians into enthusiasm. What a fabulous crowd. There were a couple of fellas a few rows in front of me in traditional Indian dress - they must have been sweltering - who celebrated every 6 with what I can only describe as a Morris Dance, repeat with sticks. I know that one theory of the origin of Morris Dancing is that the name comes from 'Moorish' - 'Moorish', in those days being used to mean anywhere more exotic than France - I wonder if the ancestors of Morris are Indian? One for @Morris_Dancer?
- Notable how many families of India supporters had younger members supporting England. One young girl from a family of India supporters had come with a banner lengthily explaining how she loved both England and India. This made me happy. I think Norman Tebbit might also be grudgingly satisfied. I stick to my assertion the other day that cricket is a strong net positive for race relations in this country.
- Sat next to an 18 year old lad from Birmingham; English, of Anglo-Pakistani heritage. Very chatty, enthusiastic about everything. Sadly the only one of his mates interested in cricket; happily not dissuaded by this and quite happy to get a coach from Birmingham on his own and see who he got chatting to. He had been interested in cricket by T20 but got hooked on the game from the hundred last year. I have therefore slightly revised my opinion of the hundred upwards a bit. He was waiting for his A level results and hopes to do medicine at Birmingham and I hope he is successful. The world needs more people like him.6 -
There’s an opportunity for a thread header there, if you care to expand.HYUFD said:
No, I am very interested in itFairliered said:
Wouldn’t it be good if nobody cared about the religious leanings of anyone, whether in politics or not.HYUFD said:
Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.Carnyx said:
Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.Andy_JS said:
She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.Theuniondivvie said:Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.
Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM0 -
Hunt wants to bring back fox hunting?Foxy said:
And he wants to bring back fox hunting. He really has fired up the random policy generator.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
This lot seem determined to disprove the theory that no one could be worse than Johnson.
Not good news for you.1 -
I will have to go to ground.Northern_Al said:
Hunt wants to bring back fox hunting?Foxy said:
And he wants to bring back fox hunting. He really has fired up the random policy generator.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
This lot seem determined to disprove the theory that no one could be worse than Johnson.
Not good news for you.2 -
Though the need to move away, while it hasn't gone away, has become less acute with homeworking.Stuartinromford said:
And there's a huge problem in a nutshell.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
A chunk of the Red Wall Brexit and Boris vote is about older people in small towns hating the way that their children and grandchildren have moved away.
But the world where people stayed in their hometown and worked in whatever the town's industry was and didn't need a degree isn't coming back. In part because young people don't want it that way. But also because the things that make Britain money don't work like that.
But hey, generating prosperity isn't as important as long as we all stay where we were born, eh?
I'm not saying everyone should stay where they are. Far from it. But I am very interested in concepts of home; I am quite rooted in my own rather broad home territory, but I think those with stronger, deeper roots to a particular place - those who have always lived in the same few square miles, and whose parents are from there too, and so on - are very lucky indeed.0 -
Looking at that list, if any of my family wanted a career in politics, I would discourage them from attending Manchester Metropolitan University.HYUFD said:
Until they all become PM, no.Roger said:
Should we read anything into having Laura Pidcock Grant Shapps and Rebecca Long Bailey all educated at Manchester Metropolitan University? Is it to become the new 'Oxford' for the political class?HYUFD said:
That is like switching your scientist of choice from Stephen Hawking to Richard Hammond!TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
It would also be quite a shock to have a PM educated at...Manchester Met
Though we would need to keep an eye on OGH's blood pressure if he has to write thread headers on 'Why do almost all our PMs come from Man Met?' rather than 'Why do almost all our PMs come from Oxford (my alma mater)?'
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Serfdom it is.Stuartinromford said:
And there's a huge problem in a nutshell.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
A chunk of the Red Wall Brexit and Boris vote is about older people in small towns hating the way that their children and grandchildren have moved away.
But the world where people stayed in their hometown and worked in whatever the town's industry was and didn't need a degree isn't coming back. In part because young people don't want it that way. But also because the things that make Britain money don't work like that.
But hey, generating prosperity isn't as important as long as we all stay where we were born, eh?1 -
I can't help, at first glance, reading TT's slogan as 'A clean shirt'. Which is, you know, commendable, but leaves me wanting something more.GIN1138 said:
Penny's is the best there. You're instantly drawn to the arrow which looks intriguing...kle4 said:Seriously that's your 'logo' Michael? Javid's is lame but at least he has a nickname to make use of (I'd have gone for 'Rise of The Saj'). Tugendhat's looks a bit cluttered to me, but at least he's gone for a logo, included his name, and a message to be clear.
Team Saj's logo is rubbish.2 -
It's not happening. What PM is going to take up valuable time and political capital on such an issue? As an appeal it is clearly one he is not going to deliver on.Foxy said:
And he wants to bring back fox hunting. He really has fired up the random policy generator.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
.0 -
Why would anyone want to move to Manchester? It’s like London without the culture.EPG said:Hunt today included Manchester in the list of places to which it's unacceptable for people to move to be better-off. I get it electorally, but if you exclude basically anywhere with a university, you are going to collide with skilled graduate preferences and economic geography.
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Sajid ‘the Jav’ appears to be in trouble0
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Yes, and while both sides do say ghat, it is easy to tell which side is telling the truth and which side is simply gaslighting by looking at which side represents views which would have been taken as read until very recently and which side represents views which would be considered insane until very recently.kle4 said:
Probably. But that's why while some people are trying to make too much of a cultural war for partisan ends, we are in a cultural skirmish, it isn't simply an invention.ThePoliticalParty said:
Wouldn’t both sides say that?Cookie said:
I don't think we need to get caught up in some culture war either. But I don't feel like I'm on the side trying to have a culture war. I'm on the side which was fine with culture as it was.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
There is often a respectable argument for cultural change. But it needs to be far more convincing than "we're not the ones arguing for cultural change, you are".1 -
A couple observations.Cookie said:Off topic, but I've been to Trent Bridge today to watch England play India in the last game of the 2020 series. A few observations:
- Trent Bridge is gorgeous. My closest ground, Old Trafford, is many things, but not gorgeous. Trent Bridge, at least in parts, was like being in an idealised version of the 1930s. And the hanging baskets! There is no need, no commercial justification, for so many hanging baskets; they can be there only because people at Nottinghamshire clearly care very much about making the place look gorgeous.
- Indians: it is so deliciously easy to goad Indians into enthusiasm. What a fabulous crowd. There were a couple of fellas a few rows in front of me in traditional Indian dress - they must have been sweltering - who celebrated every 6 with what I can only describe as a Morris Dance, repeat with sticks. I know that one theory of the origin of Morris Dancing is that the name comes from 'Moorish' - 'Moorish', in those days being used to mean anywhere more exotic than France - I wonder if the ancestors of Morris are Indian? One for @Morris_Dancer?
- Notable how many families of India supporters had younger members supporting England. One young girl from a family of India supporters had come with a banner lengthily explaining how she loved both England and India. This made me happy. I think Norman Tebbit might also be grudgingly satisfied. I stick to my assertion the other day that cricket is a strong net positive for race relations in this country.
- Sat next to an 18 year old lad from Birmingham; English, of Anglo-Pakistani heritage. Very chatty, enthusiastic about everything. Sadly the only one of his mates interested in cricket; happily not dissuaded by this and quite happy to get a coach from Birmingham on his own and see who he got chatting to. He had been interested in cricket by T20 but got hooked on the game from the hundred last year. I have therefore slightly revised my opinion of the hundred upwards a bit. He was waiting for his A level results and hopes to do medicine at Birmingham and I hope he is successful. The world needs more people like him.
Folk from the Indian subcontinent are the nicest people in the world; even nicer than folk from the Caribbean.
Nottingham is a great place with great people.
The fact that you have to mention commercial justification is a sad reflection on today’s society.1 -
Let's face it The Saj is a waste of space. Always been massively over promoted...ThePoliticalParty said:Sajid ‘the Jav’ appears to be in trouble
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Ok, off to bed. Behave yourselves, folks.1
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Prediction time: I think the final two could be Mordaunt and Badenoch. Sunak will fade and the Stop Liz Truss vote will get behind Badenoch.6
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The thing is, 99% of the selectorate will see "A clean start" from this Candidate as = "cancel Brexit"Cookie said:
I can't help, at first glance, reading TT's slogan as 'A clean shirt'. Which is, you know, commendable, but leaves me wanting something more.GIN1138 said:
Penny's is the best there. You're instantly drawn to the arrow which looks intriguing...kle4 said:Seriously that's your 'logo' Michael? Javid's is lame but at least he has a nickname to make use of (I'd have gone for 'Rise of The Saj'). Tugendhat's looks a bit cluttered to me, but at least he's gone for a logo, included his name, and a message to be clear.
Team Saj's logo is rubbish.
"A clean start" might work for someone like Sue-Ellen but for Tom Tugandugan with con members "a clean start" looks ominous...0 -
I think this is very unlikely, but the mere fact you've predicted it gives me cheer. I will doff my metaphorical hat to you if you are right.williamglenn said:Prediction time: I think the final two could be Mordaunt and Badenoch. Sunak will fade and the Stop Liz Truss vote will get behind Badenoch.
My prediction is one which will give me no points whatever for soothsaying - never satisfying to predict the outcome which appears most obvious - that it will be a run off between Sunak and Truss, with Truss winning the membership vote.1 -
It's difficult to predict which of those two would win with the members.williamglenn said:Prediction time: I think the final two could be Mordaunt and Badenoch. Sunak will fade and the Stop Liz Truss vote will get behind Badenoch.
But I find it difficult to envisage Sunak not getting into the top two with MPs.0 -
I agree about Trent Bridge. I was lucky enough to be there on days 4 and 5 of the test match.Cookie said:Off topic, but I've been to Trent Bridge today to watch England play India in the last game of the 2020 series. A few observations:
- Trent Bridge is gorgeous. My closest ground, Old Trafford, is many things, but not gorgeous. Trent Bridge, at least in parts, was like being in an idealised version of the 1930s. And the hanging baskets! There is no need, no commercial justification, for so many hanging baskets; they can be there only because people at Nottinghamshire clearly care very much about making the place look gorgeous.
- Indians: it is so deliciously easy to goad Indians into enthusiasm. What a fabulous crowd. There were a couple of fellas a few rows in front of me in traditional Indian dress - they must have been sweltering - who celebrated every 6 with what I can only describe as a Morris Dance, repeat with sticks. I know that one theory of the origin of Morris Dancing is that the name comes from 'Moorish' - 'Moorish', in those days being used to mean anywhere more exotic than France - I wonder if the ancestors of Morris are Indian? One for @Morris_Dancer?
- Notable how many families of India supporters had younger members supporting England. One young girl from a family of India supporters had come with a banner lengthily explaining how she loved both England and India. This made me happy. I think Norman Tebbit might also be grudgingly satisfied. I stick to my assertion the other day that cricket is a strong net positive for race relations in this country.
- Sat next to an 18 year old lad from Birmingham; English, of Anglo-Pakistani heritage. Very chatty, enthusiastic about everything. Sadly the only one of his mates interested in cricket; happily not dissuaded by this and quite happy to get a coach from Birmingham on his own and see who he got chatting to. He had been interested in cricket by T20 but got hooked on the game from the hundred last year. I have therefore slightly revised my opinion of the hundred upwards a bit. He was waiting for his A level results and hopes to do medicine at Birmingham and I hope he is successful. The world needs more people like him.0 -
Her new tagline of 'website' is a bit cryptic though. I preferred 'a bit less about the leader, a lot more about the ship'.GIN1138 said:
Penny's is the best there. You're instantly drawn to the arrow which looks intriguing...kle4 said:Seriously that's your 'logo' Michael? Javid's is lame but at least he has a nickname to make use of (I'd have gone for 'Rise of The Saj'). Tugendhat's looks a bit cluttered to me, but at least he's gone for a logo, included his name, and a message to be clear.
1 -
The race is on. And a good debate in evidence here tonight.
Unfortunately though, (and notably after the lagershed), we regrettably see, once again, some PBers schoolboy humour emerging - with jokes about Willies etc!
PB is at it's best when we are modern and mature. Some posters comments tonight have been frankly DICKensian.4 -
Ukraine
Just a short note. The handful of HIMARS & the bigger MLRS270 long range rocket systems in Ukrainian service are working to effect. The reported anecdotal feedback from the Russian side is that sites thought safe are being flattened. Its the range but also the accuracy, the latter of which is unrivalled on the Russian side.
It appears the Russians dont have an answer to it so far. One of the features of the war has been the Russian military's inability to find things at night or when mobile, hence the remarkable lack of success in interdicting Westerns supplies whilst they transit UKraine. They have hit stores, but rarely anything on the move.
The problem may become more acute as these systems multiply in number. Put into use against frontline positions rather than at C3 & logistics, Russian forces in the most recently occupied regions of the Donbas will probably find it unsustainable to stay.6 -
First ballot on Wednesday 13th, second on Thursday 14th, third on the following Tuesday 19th, next day of voting on Wednesday 20th. But there could be two ballots on Tuesday 19th if necessary, ie. more than 3 candidates at that stage.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/1922-committee-rules-how-tories-will-elect-new-prime-minister/1 -
FPT:
Ruh roh!Benpointer said:
Apologies if I have missed this while being a long way up a misty moody Norwegian fjord but has the timetable been set yet?TheScreamingEagles said:💥 NEW: Senior Tories want to rapidly thin out the field of leadership candidates
One senior MP close to 1922 committee it was “likely” candidates must secure the support of at least 10% of the parliamentary party to get on to the ballot paper - 36 MPs
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1546214174883303427
Oldevatnet, Norway:
Here's one I took much earlier...
Where did Briksdalsbreen go? I know it was there, because I went for a walk on it. Glacial retreat!
I don't imagine Jostedalsbreen has disappeared, mind.
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I find it extremely odd that Truss’ telegraph piece is behind a paywall. Surely she could have negotiated with them to make it freely accessible?!
Amateur error.0 -
Pft. They’re making a dogs dinner out of it.Andy_JS said:First ballot on Wednesday 13th, second on Thursday 14th, third on the following Tuesday 19th, next day of voting on Wednesday 20th. But there could be two ballots on Tuesday 19th if necessary, ie. more than 3 candidates at that stage.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/1922-committee-rules-how-tories-will-elect-new-prime-minister/
They should have kept it simple - Monday/Wednesday/Friday at noon until there are only two left.0 -
The red wall would be crazy to vote anyone but Sunak. Even if his spend is unsustainable, every other candidate is promising to revert to pre-Johnson spending instincts that would split vulnerable coalitions in deprived and improving areas.0
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FWIW, I think the biggest loser this weekend has been Sunak.
It's clear he was looking for the momentum for him to be so strong that his coronation looked inevitable. Not only has that not happened but several other credible alternatives have come thorough and it's clear BoJo's team is out to get him. As has been noted, he's lived a charmed life up to now where has has never failed. What happens if things don't start going his way.
Re Badenoch, kicking myself for not backing her at the longer odds. However, I do wonder if Gove'a backing is a blessing or a curse - if she's seen as his puppet, that may put off a fair few MPs
Still thinking Hunt looks good odds.Andy_JS said:
It's difficult to predict which of those two would win with the members.williamglenn said:Prediction time: I think the final two could be Mordaunt and Badenoch. Sunak will fade and the Stop Liz Truss vote will get behind Badenoch.
But I find it difficult to envisage Sunak not getting into the top two with MPs.2 -
Latest WH odds:
1. Sunak 2.62
2. Mordaunt 4
3. Truss 5
4. Badenoch 11
5. Hunt 12
6. Tugendhat 13
7. Zahawi 17
8. Javid 21
9. Braverman 26
10.Patel 41
Shapps 67
https://sports.williamhill.com/betting/en-gb/politics0 -
Are you sure you've got your scientists the right way round? Shapps has got a lot more Cabinet experience than Tugendhat, who has never been a minister.HYUFD said:
That is like switching your scientist of choice from Stephen Hawking to Richard Hammond!TheScreamingEagles said:I'm switching my support from Tom Tugendhat to Grant Shapps.
Grant Shapps seemingly alone among Conservative candidates in dismissing the trans women question.
"Let people live their lives," he tells Sky.
"I just don't think we need to get caught up in some US-style debate and aggressive war on these issues. It's just not necessary."
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1546045999327608834
It would also be quite a shock to have a PM educated at...Manchester Met0
