Why Starmer can afford to be less timid on Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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edited July 2022 in General
imageWhy Starmer can afford to be less timid on Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    edited July 2022
    1st!

    Unlike honesty in the Tory party which appears to come last these days if mentioned at all
  • stjohn
    stjohn Posts: 1,910
    Liz has declared.

    In Liz we Truss!
  • CorrectHorseBattery
    CorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    Jesus Christ, more mythical tax cuts. WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    edited July 2022
    carnforth said:

    Except that it's the people not on that chart whose votes he needs to regain to win the next election.

    Yes, 'current Labour voters think Brexit was wrong' is up there with 'SNP voters mostly think there should be Sindyref II.'
  • EPG
    EPG Posts: 6,739
    Big unfunded tax cuts, except Sunak, who prefers unfunded benefits; performatively anti-youth culture politics, except Thingyhat and bizarrely Shapps; and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.
  • rottenborough
    rottenborough Posts: 66,865
    Candidates falling over themselves to cause a run on the £ frankly.
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    edited July 2022
    rottenborough said:

    Candidates falling over themselves to cause a run on the £ frankly.

    And the collapse of the public sector. Don't be ill, on benefits or in a school this autumn.
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Starmer is just a Tory wet. The Establishment like it that way.
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    edited July 2022
    God. This Tory Party race is depressing.
    It's unfunded tax cuts to pay for themselves as foretold. And continuity Boris policies.
    Will it win them another five years, as they once again run against the previous regime, blaming it for all travails?
    Probably.
    And that's the most depressing of all.
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    What do you mean by timid? Saying it was a terrible mistake? Wanting to rejoin the single market and customs union? I understand the frustration but what do people actually want Starmer to do?
  • rottenborough
    rottenborough Posts: 66,865
    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    Jesus Christ, more mythical tax cuts. WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM

    Fiscal headroom apparently.

    Short hand for unicorns on stilts.

  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    rottenborough said:

    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    Jesus Christ, more mythical tax cuts. WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM

    Fiscal headroom apparently.

    Short hand for unicorns on stilts.

    Is that a convoluted way of saying tax cuts give Tories the horn?
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    CorrectHorseBattery said:

    Jesus Christ, more mythical tax cuts. WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM

    The under 40s of course. More debt for them to clear.

    You need to understand how important it is to shovel more money into the banks and houses belong to the 70+ year olds that comprise the Tory core vote.
  • Wulfrun_Phil
    Wulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,784
    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    StuartDickson said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
    More like TSE's favourite Türkiyish conscript (I remember actually having to ask for it to be explained ... the shame ...).
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    edited July 2022
    Carnyx said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
    More like TSE's favourite Türkiyish conscript (I remember actually having to ask for it to be explained ... the shame ...).
    Actually that was Alastair Meeks.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/08/30/towards-a-rational-immigration-policy/
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    StuartDickson said:

    HYUFD said:

    StuartDickson said:

    For @Scott_xP

    Professor John Curtice says Scottish independence won't be hurt by resignation of Boris Johnson

    THE resignation of Boris Johnson will not impact on support for independence as his Brexit legacy will not disappear with him, Scotland’s leading pollster has said.

    As the Prime Minister who was dubbed the “best recruiting sergeant” for independence, questions have been raised over whether Johnson’s departure will make a difference to the campaign to leave the UK.

    (The National; €)

    It won't affect the UK government's refusal of an official indyref2 either!!
    You’d still be saying that if support for Scottish independence was 60%+, which seems to be the objective of current Conservative policy.
    Don't be ridiculous, Stuart. Surely even you don't think there's an objective to current Conservative policy?
    Fair point.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Did it have an element for the SNP, please?
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    You'd have thought Priti Patel would have decided by now whether or not to stand.
  • rottenborough
    rottenborough Posts: 66,865
    StuartDickson said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
    I don't know why one of them doesn't go feck it - we are scrapping income tax altogether. Bloody stupid 19th century idea.

    It only raises £200billion - we can save that by sacking civil servants and introducing departmental cost cutting efficiencies.

  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    edited July 2022
    No Starmer can't afford to be less timid on Brexit. He has a net +8% rating in redwall seats in a Sunday Times poll today, higher than all the Tory leadership contenders precisely as he has ruled out rejoining the EU and single market and free movement.

    Without winning back those redwall seats from the Tories Labour has zero chance of depriving the Tories of their majority and Starmer has zero chance of becoming PM.

    https://twitter.com/thom_brooks/status/1546148929229692930?s=20&t=6s-mAMl327v6ChyfYsFZWA

    Plus as Redfield showed earlier this month, 47% still want to stay out of the EU not rejoin

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1543321577181380609?s=20&t=zLWAsBhWuG8ZGqspbblFRg
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    EPG said:

    and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.

    That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    rottenborough said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
    I don't know why one of them doesn't go feck it - we are scrapping income tax altogether. Bloody stupid 19th century idea.

    It only raises £200billion - we can save that by sacking civil servants and introducing departmental cost cutting efficiencies.

    Although anyone who sacked the whole of the DfE would suddenly attract my interest.
  • Theuniondivvie
    Theuniondivvie Posts: 44,327
    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Yes. That's where I am.
    Was Brexit right or wrong? Wrong. I voted Remain, and haven't seen any reason why I ought to regret that.
    Do I want to waste another 5 years obsessing about it?
    No bloody way.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    edited July 2022
    FrankBooth said:

    EPG said:

    and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.

    That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?
    Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    rottenborough said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨EXCLUSIVE🚨

    THREE Tory leadership hopefuls reveal policy plans in @Telegraph

    * Liz Truss goes public with bid, vowing “day one” tax cuts

    * Zahawi signals cuts to corp tax, income tax, biz rates

    * Morduant: *halve* fuel VAT, raise i-tax thresholds
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/10/liz-truss-launches-leadership-bid-tax-cut-challenge-rishi-sunak/

    All desperate to give the economy the full stepmom.
    I don't know why one of them doesn't go feck it - we are scrapping income tax altogether. Bloody stupid 19th century idea.

    It only raises £200billion - we can save that by sacking civil servants and introducing departmental cost cutting efficiencies.

    Tax consumption instead of income/wealth creation? Fairy nuff. But if that’s what they mean then say it. It’s the silly lopsidedness that jars.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    stjohn said:

    Liz has declared.

    In Liz we Truss!

    Sober up!
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    edited July 2022
    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    dixiedean said:

    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Yes. That's where I am.
    Was Brexit right or wrong? Wrong. I voted Remain, and haven't seen any reason why I ought to regret that.
    Do I want to waste another 5 years obsessing about it?
    No bloody way.
    That puts Labour and Conservatives on the same page with the LibDems , SNP and Plaid the only pro EU parties
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Saint Anthony only missed it by a few weeks.

    And what about De Pfeffel?
  • ping
    ping Posts: 3,805
    edited July 2022
    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    Yip.

    The naïveté of Aaron Bell - and the other red wall tories who turned on Johnson is incredible. He was the best they were gonna get, policy-wise. They should have kept their head down, played the game and begged for pork. It was deeply undignified, but that was the game that had to be played.

    I’ve never been a Johnson supporter, but called them out at the time - to universal derision on PB.

    They’ve fked their constituents. And probably lost their seats.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    EPG said:

    Big unfunded tax cuts, except Sunak, who prefers unfunded benefits; performatively anti-youth culture politics, except Thingyhat and bizarrely Shapps; and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.

    Anyone against Rwanda yet?
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    Andy_JS said:

    You'd have thought Priti Patel would have decided by now whether or not to stand.

    She's crafty.
    I think she's manoeuvering to stay in post.
    I always get the impression she's actually self-aware. She knows she can't win.
    But she can strongly influence others with her words. Look at the bounce Gove's just given.
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    dixiedean said:

    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Yes. That's where I am.
    Was Brexit right or wrong? Wrong. I voted Remain, and haven't seen any reason why I ought to regret that.
    Do I want to waste another 5 years obsessing about it?
    No bloody way.
    That puts Labour and Conservatives on the same page with the LibDems , SNP and Plaid the only pro EU parties
    … and that suits us just fine! 😄
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    edited July 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.

    Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM

  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    Bloody hell. Guy Opperman on Westminster Hour.
    An Uber Loyalist with no one to be slavishly loyal to anymore.
    Be interested to hear him.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    edited July 2022
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    Yes, but they can channel huge donations to GB parties and campaigns without having to let on at all who they are (side effect of legislation intended for NI alone). Caused some grief during the Scottish independence referendum.

    Edit: tbf there are Alliance and the Greens.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,170
    dixiedean said:

    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Yes. That's where I am.
    Was Brexit right or wrong? Wrong. I voted Remain, and haven't seen any reason why I ought to regret that.
    Do I want to waste another 5 years obsessing about it?
    No bloody way.
    I think Starmer was right to rule it out for the next Parliament, along with the SM, but to rule it out forever is just daft.

    Not that he is going to last well in power, even if he scrapes in.
  • darkage
    darkage Posts: 5,398
    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    As far as I can see, the problem with Kemi Badenoch is that her Ministerial experience is very limited; it largely relates to culture war type issues. I think she has made a good effort on this front, and I am personally supportive of her stance; but it hasn't made that much of an impact, the culture war for the tories is far from won; in fact they seem to be losing it despite being in government. It has actually got to the point where tory MP's put up posts on facebook asking constituents to write to them about it, because it just isn't that salient. People don't care. They should care, but they don't care.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    Neil O'Brien MP has endorsed Kemi Badenoch.

    https://twitter.com/NeilDotObrien/status/1546140955681558529
  • Pro_Rata
    Pro_Rata Posts: 5,690
    I think Starmer's line is practical rather than anything else.

    A formal readmission to SM either which would either be via EFTA or reaccession or, perhaps, Swiss trilateralism will take time.

    Confirming closer SM alignment for goods that was never in reality torn down and getting easing of customs and equivalence requirements can start generating wins in the first few months, and does no harm to the possibilty of larger scale reversal further down the line.
  • rottenborough
    rottenborough Posts: 66,865
    ping said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    Yip.

    The naïveté of Aaron Bell - and the other red wall tories who turned on Johnson is incredible. He was the best they were gonna get, policy-wise. They should have kept their head down, played the game and begged for pork. It was deeply unpleasant, but that was the game that had to be played.

    I’ve never been a Johnson supporter, but called them out at the time - to universal derision on PB.

    They’ve fked their constituents. And probably lost their seats.
    Our Aaron turned on Johnson over the lying about parties in lockdown. iirc he had personal experience of missing a funeral or some such whilst Johnson was on the lash.

    Some things are are above the pork barrel.

  • eristdoof
    eristdoof Posts: 5,089
    If the sample is from a population of GE2019 Labour voters, I do not find the 88% thinking Brexit was wrong in hindsight unsurprising. I can imagine that over 75% of GE2019 Labour voters voted remain in the first place. Many Labour-Leavers voted for BJ in order to "get brexit done".
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    The SDLP, APNI and UUP are OK.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Johnson and Blair are both still officially Anglicans I think, despite being married to Catholics.
  • BlancheLivermore
    BlancheLivermore Posts: 6,502
    edited July 2022
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    Hamish Badenoch (Mr Kemi) stood for the NI Conservatives in Foyle at the 2015 GE

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foyle_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s

    ETA 132 votes, 0.4%
  • IshmaelZ
    IshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ping said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    Yip.

    The naïveté of Aaron Bell - and the other red wall tories who turned on Johnson is incredible. He was the best they were gonna get, policy-wise. They should have kept their head down, played the game and begged for pork. It was deeply unpleasant, but that was the game that had to be played.

    I’ve never been a Johnson supporter, but called them out at the time - to universal derision on PB.

    They’ve fked their constituents.
    What a difference a year makes. Back then we laughed at you. Now the tables are turned and we are virtually defiling ourselves with derision. You think AB was ever going to be the difference between phatboi surviving and not? Seriously? Really Seriously? LOL, it was only ever about where AB was going to end up after the always inevitable debacle.

    Your pork themed comments say a LOT about your morals and your intellect.
  • Pro_Rata
    Pro_Rata Posts: 5,690
    Andy_JS said:

    You'd have thought Priti Patel would have decided by now whether or not to stand.

    I'm starting to think she won't.
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.

    Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too

    And Braverman the first Buddhist.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Beibheirli_C said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015
    Obvs the wrong sort of Tory, like those who vote for PC.
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    You are not (and can never be) a LEAVER, because you voted REMAIN in 2016.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    edited July 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.

    Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM

    Braverman would be the first Buddhist PM. Grant Shapps is Jewish.
  • northern_monkey
    northern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    Andy_JS said:

    Neil O'Brien MP has endorsed Kemi Badenoch.

    https://twitter.com/NeilDotObrien/status/1546140955681558529

    He seemed sane, too. Must be the heat.
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    The SDLP, APNI and UUP are OK.
    SDLP has 2 MPs, Alliance has 1 MP and UUP have none. They are not exactly in a position to form a majority at Westminster. All of them need another few hundred MPs
  • kjh
    kjh Posts: 12,899
    Hi @hyufd You answered my subsidiary question on the last thread but not the main question.

    Why were constitutional experts and senior Tories worried about Boris trashing the constitution (as reported today) if there wasn't any issue.
  • Foxy
    Foxy Posts: 52,170
    edited July 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    She is divorced, living with her longstanding partner and is supportive of her gay twin brother, so certainly not a JRM level Catholic.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Johnson and Blair are both still officially Anglicans I think, despite being married to Catholics.
    Why do you think that? Mr J had to sign on the dotted line - IIRC also denying that he had been validly married before, if only by implication. Or am I missing something?
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    Which candidate will be the first to say the following, and how long before they all follow suit?

    "I would cut taxes massively, increase spending massively, and improve every government service (with half the staff) before the next election, and take no nonsense from any court (foreign or domestic).
  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    Pro_Rata said:

    I think Starmer's line is practical rather than anything else.

    A formal readmission to SM either which would either be via EFTA or reaccession or, perhaps, Swiss trilateralism will take time.

    Confirming closer SM alignment for goods that was never in reality torn down and getting easing of customs and equivalence requirements can start generating wins in the first few months, and does no harm to the possibilty of larger scale reversal further down the line.

    You don't envisage any divergence then?
  • Theuniondivvie
    Theuniondivvie Posts: 44,327
    edited July 2022
    StuartDickson said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    dixiedean said:

    Wulfrun_Phil said:

    Why should Keir Starmer change his current stance on Brexit, when that stance is heavily backed by supporters of all the main parties?

    i.e. Opinium VI poll 6th July 2022

    Question: Regarding Brexit, earlier this week Keir Starmer said that Labour’s policy would be to “sort out the poor deal Boris Johnson signed” but he said that a Labour government would NOT take Britain back into the EU’s single market or customs union or return to “free movement” of people between the UK and the EU. Do you think he was right or wrong to say this?

    Results: Right/Wrong to say this by current VI

    All 51% right, 23% wrong
    Con 63% right, 18% wrong
    Lab 56% right, 25% wrong
    LD 45% right, 30% wrong

    Yes. That's where I am.
    Was Brexit right or wrong? Wrong. I voted Remain, and haven't seen any reason why I ought to regret that.
    Do I want to waste another 5 years obsessing about it?
    No bloody way.
    That puts Labour and Conservatives on the same page with the LibDems , SNP and Plaid the only pro EU parties
    … and that suits us just fine! 😄
    Intriguing to analyse the difference between how a group of voters who (narrowly) voted for an issue with a crap outcome feel about it versus a group of voters who voted against it and had it imposed on them anyway. If only there were examples to consider.
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    darkage said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    As far as I can see, the problem with Kemi Badenoch is that her Ministerial experience is very limited; it largely relates to culture war type issues. I think she has made a good effort on this front, and I am personally supportive of her stance; but it hasn't made that much of an impact, the culture war for the tories is far from won; in fact they seem to be losing it despite being in government. It has actually got to the point where tory MP's put up posts on facebook asking constituents to write to them about it, because it just isn't that salient. People don't care. They should care, but they don't care.
    Yes. Badenoch would be an outrageous gamble.
    Almost a Hail Mary.
    She's utterly unknown and completely untested.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    edited July 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Johnson and Blair are both still officially Anglicans I think, despite being married to Catholics.
    No Blair converted to Rome in 2007.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/dec/22/labour.uk

    Johnson was baptised Roman Catholic and rejoined the Catholic Church to be married at Westminster Cathedral.

    Of the main Tory leadership candidates only Jeremy Hunt is Church of England, Badenoch is Christian but undefined denomination, likely Pentecostal
  • BlancheLivermore
    BlancheLivermore Posts: 6,502
    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    As far as I can see, the problem with Kemi Badenoch is that her Ministerial experience is very limited; it largely relates to culture war type issues. I think she has made a good effort on this front, and I am personally supportive of her stance; but it hasn't made that much of an impact, the culture war for the tories is far from won; in fact they seem to be losing it despite being in government. It has actually got to the point where tory MP's put up posts on facebook asking constituents to write to them about it, because it just isn't that salient. People don't care. They should care, but they don't care.
    Yes. Badenoch would be an outrageous gamble.
    Almost a Hail Mary.
    She's utterly unknown and completely untested.
    Bazball
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Beibheirli_C said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015
    So as I said you are not the key swing voters he needs ie voted Tory in 2019.

    Do you live in the top 150 Labour target seats needed for a Labour majority? If not again Starmer is not really interested in your views
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Penny Mordaunt is favourite for the Scottish Tory vote

    Another Scottish Tory source said this regime had been “very divisive” and that Mordaunt would be a “unifying candidate”.

    An influential figure among grassroots Scottish Tories said they believed Mordaunt, who was the first female defence secretary, would be “very sellable in Scotland”.

    It is understood that Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader, is waiting to see the contenders before backing a candidate.

    Yesterday he predicted that the contest would provide a “very strong positive debate” about the future of the party and suggested there should be an overhaul of the UK government to remove Johnson loyalists.

    … Liz Truss, the foreign secretary… was met with scorn from several Conservative MSPs, who believe she would be “disastrous” for the Scottish party in a similar vein to Johnson, whose approval ratings dropped to a record low of -71 in Scotland last month.

    (The Times; €)
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    She is divorced, living with her longstanding partner and is supportive of her gay twin brother, so certainly not a JRM level Catholic.
    Probably a damn sight more representative of your average Catholic, though.
  • SeaShantyIrish2
    SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rottenborough said:

    Candidates falling over themselves to cause a run on the £ frankly.

    So how is the BitCoin Trust backing? They've emerged this year in US as BIG albeit not especially successful (yet anyway) players re: campaign cash.
  • Applicant
    Applicant Posts: 3,379
    northern_monkey said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Neil O'Brien MP has endorsed Kemi Badenoch.

    https://twitter.com/NeilDotObrien/status/1546140955681558529

    He seemed sane, too. Must be the heat.
    Far from sane - he was a Zero Covidian nutter well into 2021.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Yes Johnson has already been our first Roman Catholic PM in office (Blair converted to Rome having left office). Tugendhat would be our second Roman Catholic PM in office, he is also part Jewish.

    Sunak would be our first Hindu PM too, Braverman the first Buddhist PM. Zahawi our first Muslim PM

    Braverman would be the first Buddhist PM. Grant Shapps is Jewish.
    Disraeli was our first Jewish heritage PM of course
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    kjh said:

    Hi @hyufd You answered my subsidiary question on the last thread but not the main question.

    Why were constitutional experts and senior Tories worried about Boris trashing the constitution (as reported today) if there wasn't any issue.

    As most of them were likely anti Brexit and anti Boris
  • ThePoliticalParty
    ThePoliticalParty Posts: 446
    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015
    So as I said you are not the key swing voters he needs ie voted Tory in 2019.

    Do you live in the top 150 Labour target seats needed for a Labour majority? If not again Starmer is not really interested in your views
    So you were wrong?
  • Beibheirli_C
    Beibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    FrankBooth said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    I think Starmer's line is practical rather than anything else.

    A formal readmission to SM either which would either be via EFTA or reaccession or, perhaps, Swiss trilateralism will take time.

    Confirming closer SM alignment for goods that was never in reality torn down and getting easing of customs and equivalence requirements can start generating wins in the first few months, and does no harm to the possibilty of larger scale reversal further down the line.

    You don't envisage any divergence then?
    We dare not diverge our standards from EU ones. We are in enough trouble as it is...
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    StuartDickson said:

    Penny Mordaunt is favourite for the Scottish Tory vote

    Another Scottish Tory source said this regime had been “very divisive” and that Mordaunt would be a “unifying candidate”.

    An influential figure among grassroots Scottish Tories said they believed Mordaunt, who was the first female defence secretary, would be “very sellable in Scotland”.

    It is understood that Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader, is waiting to see the contenders before backing a candidate.

    Yesterday he predicted that the contest would provide a “very strong positive debate” about the future of the party and suggested there should be an overhaul of the UK government to remove Johnson loyalists.

    … Liz Truss, the foreign secretary… was met with scorn from several Conservative MSPs, who believe she would be “disastrous” for the Scottish party in a similar vein to Johnson, whose approval ratings dropped to a record low of -71 in Scotland last month.

    (The Times; €)

    Just pick any chimp at Edinburgh Zoo: there are 15 to choose from. Any would be more popular in Scotland than Mr J.

  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    As far as I can see, the problem with Kemi Badenoch is that her Ministerial experience is very limited; it largely relates to culture war type issues. I think she has made a good effort on this front, and I am personally supportive of her stance; but it hasn't made that much of an impact, the culture war for the tories is far from won; in fact they seem to be losing it despite being in government. It has actually got to the point where tory MP's put up posts on facebook asking constituents to write to them about it, because it just isn't that salient. People don't care. They should care, but they don't care.
    Yes. Badenoch would be an outrageous gamble.
    Almost a Hail Mary.
    She's utterly unknown and completely untested.
    In April 2018, The Mail on Sunday obtained a video of an interview that Badenoch did with Core Politics, where she confessed to hacking into the website of a Labour MP in 2008.[31][32] The MP in question was Harriet Harman, who was then Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. Harman accepted Badenoch's apology, but the matter was reported to Action Fraud, the UK's cyber crime reporting centre.[33][34]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Badenoch
  • SeaShantyIrish2
    SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    She is divorced, living with her longstanding partner and is supportive of her gay twin brother, so certainly not a JRM level Catholic.
    So she believes in the teachings of Jesus, instead of what the Catholic Church stands for?
  • Cookie
    Cookie Posts: 15,685
    Carnyx said:

    FrankBooth said:

    EPG said:

    and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.

    That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?
    Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...
    Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.
    Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.
  • dixiedean
    dixiedean Posts: 30,317
    edited July 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Is Penny ‘Morduant’ some insider joke for the cool kids that I’ve missed? It’s getting as fckn hilarious as Sir Kier.

    She would be Britain's first Catholic PM although I don't think she's particularly religious.
    Eh? That can't be right, whether Anglican Catholic or Roman Catholic. Mr Johnson waves a hand re his marriage in a RC church, and his signing up to that kirk.
    Johnson and Blair are both still officially Anglicans I think, despite being married to Catholics.
    They are cool with that. As long as the kids are brought up Catholic.
    I'm one.
    Boris has certainly spread the influence of the one true Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    ThePoliticalParty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    HYUFD said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Starmer doesn't need your vote, you don't live in a Tory marginal seat and you didn't vote Labour in 2017 but Tory in 2019. You are not a swing voter
    I see you are wrong as usual. I voted LibDem in 2017 and did not vote in 2019. I voted Tory in 2010 and 2015
    So as I said you are not the key swing voters he needs ie voted Tory in 2019.

    Do you live in the top 150 Labour target seats needed for a Labour majority? If not again Starmer is not really interested in your views
    So you were wrong?
    No I wasn't, they did not vote Tory in 2019 and do not live in the top 150 Labour target seats I believe so are
    irrelevant to Starmer
  • StuartDickson
    StuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Penny Mordaunt is favourite for the Scottish Tory vote

    Another Scottish Tory source said this regime had been “very divisive” and that Mordaunt would be a “unifying candidate”.

    An influential figure among grassroots Scottish Tories said they believed Mordaunt, who was the first female defence secretary, would be “very sellable in Scotland”.

    It is understood that Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader, is waiting to see the contenders before backing a candidate.

    Yesterday he predicted that the contest would provide a “very strong positive debate” about the future of the party and suggested there should be an overhaul of the UK government to remove Johnson loyalists.

    … Liz Truss, the foreign secretary… was met with scorn from several Conservative MSPs, who believe she would be “disastrous” for the Scottish party in a similar vein to Johnson, whose approval ratings dropped to a record low of -71 in Scotland last month.

    (The Times; €)

    Just pick any chimp at Edinburgh Zoo: there are 15 to choose from. Any would be more popular in Scotland than Mr J.

    Even the filthy bastard who poos in his own palm and then eats it?
  • IshmaelZ
    IshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    dixiedean said:

    darkage said:

    northern_monkey said:

    FPT, cos I just spent ages typing it out…

    Scott_xP said:

    TOP EXCL in today's Paper
    Tory big beast (and king maker?) @michaelgove BACKS @KemiBadenoch to be the next Tory leader and PM.

    Writing for @TheSun he says Kemi has the "right stuff" to lead the UK

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19155009/gove-backs-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    Jesus Christ, Gove’s getting some good shit. He’s off his tits.

    I know Badenoch is unlikely to get through to the membership, but I’m worried she will by some fluke, and if she does the batshit crazy membership might just give it to her.

    On a positive note, it would be great to see a black woman as PM.

    That’s the only positive I can see. Well, maybe the other one would be to make the Tories unelectable. Nothing to do with her gender, or colour. Entirely to do with the fact that she’s absolutely fucking mental.

    She’s the Tory id personified, right there before our eyes. Reduce the state to its bare essentials? I wonder what she sees as essential and what can be happily sacrificed as non-essential. You can guess, can’t you?

    Johnson’s done his job for the Tories. The conventional wisdom is that he has used the party simply to achieve power. Perhaps with time we’ll come to think that it was the party that has used Johnson. An unconventional politician who appealed to Leavers across the traditional spectrum and got us out of the EU. Jettisoned when his magic started to fade along,
    perhaps, with any pretence of levelling up; the party can bin all the Brexit ‘benefits’ the Red Wall seem to think is their due, that Johnson is the hapless face of, and shamelessly return to cutting and slashing and reducing the services that mean so much to the Red Wallers.

    Tragic, really, and completely amoral. But, hey, Tories gonna Tory.

    As far as I can see, the problem with Kemi Badenoch is that her Ministerial experience is very limited; it largely relates to culture war type issues. I think she has made a good effort on this front, and I am personally supportive of her stance; but it hasn't made that much of an impact, the culture war for the tories is far from won; in fact they seem to be losing it despite being in government. It has actually got to the point where tory MP's put up posts on facebook asking constituents to write to them about it, because it just isn't that salient. People don't care. They should care, but they don't care.
    Yes. Badenoch would be an outrageous gamble.
    Almost a Hail Mary.
    She's utterly unknown and completely untested.
    In April 2018, The Mail on Sunday obtained a video of an interview that Badenoch did with Core Politics, where she confessed to hacking into the website of a Labour MP in 2008.[31][32] The MP in question was Harriet Harman, who was then Deputy Leader of the Labour Party. Harman accepted Badenoch's apology, but the matter was reported to Action Fraud, the UK's cyber crime reporting centre.[33][34]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Badenoch
    Funny and admirable.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    I hope Kemi doesn't want to scrap HS2. I'm in favour.
  • IshmaelZ
    IshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    Hi @hyufd You answered my subsidiary question on the last thread but not the main question.

    Why were constitutional experts and senior Tories worried about Boris trashing the constitution (as reported today) if there wasn't any issue.

    As most of them were likely anti Brexit and anti Boris
    That is definitely it.
  • MPartridge
    MPartridge Posts: 174
    With Rehman Chishti now running, this takes us too 11 declared candidates (possible 12 is Patel runs as well)

    This has now overtaken Tory 2019 campaign as the most candidates ever for a UK major party leadership election.
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    StuartDickson said:

    Carnyx said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Penny Mordaunt is favourite for the Scottish Tory vote

    Another Scottish Tory source said this regime had been “very divisive” and that Mordaunt would be a “unifying candidate”.

    An influential figure among grassroots Scottish Tories said they believed Mordaunt, who was the first female defence secretary, would be “very sellable in Scotland”.

    It is understood that Douglas Ross, the Scottish Conservative leader, is waiting to see the contenders before backing a candidate.

    Yesterday he predicted that the contest would provide a “very strong positive debate” about the future of the party and suggested there should be an overhaul of the UK government to remove Johnson loyalists.

    … Liz Truss, the foreign secretary… was met with scorn from several Conservative MSPs, who believe she would be “disastrous” for the Scottish party in a similar vein to Johnson, whose approval ratings dropped to a record low of -71 in Scotland last month.

    (The Times; €)

    Just pick any chimp at Edinburgh Zoo: there are 15 to choose from. Any would be more popular in Scotland than Mr J.

    Even the filthy bastard who poos in his own palm and then eats it?
    Well, perhaps not that one!
  • Malmesbury
    Malmesbury Posts: 55,723
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    The SDLP, APNI and UUP are OK.
    SDLP has 2 MPs, Alliance has 1 MP and UUP have none. They are not exactly in a position to form a majority at Westminster. All of them need another few hundred MPs
    The people of NI have deliberately picked the extremists. Because the U.K. government and the Dublin government listened to the extremists concerns, and gave them concessions. The UUP and SDLP were told to sit at the back of the room and not make too much noise. Alliance was ignored completely.
  • Andy_JS
    Andy_JS Posts: 36,292
    edited July 2022
    "Rehman Chishti
    @Rehman_Chishti

    I’m standing to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and your Prime Minister. For me it’s about aspirational conservatism, fresh ideas, fresh team for a fresh start taking our great country forward. (Full video on my Facebook page)."

    https://twitter.com/Rehman_Chishti/status/1546240922043695107
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    FrankBooth said:

    EPG said:

    and every single one wants a to fight the EU to impose a locally unpopular policy on a province they don't care about.

    That's the real mystery. I wonder if they think their grassroots will deem it a surrender to the EU? Are Tory members interested in Ulster?
    Wings over Scotland commissioned some polling years back which IIRC showed that Tories (I think voters) would rather have Brexit than NI. Which is some way to being fulfilled, given that NI is still in the EU and distinctly semi-detached ...
    Aside from HYUFD, I don't think Tory voters (or anyone in England) cares strongly either way whether NI is in the UK. It is a foreign land of which we know little. Losing it isn't going to change the map of the country in any way we might notice. It costs us money and gives us no great advantage that we can see. And even the ones there who nominally want to remain attached seem constantly furious with us. We'll have them, while a majority want to stay with us, but I don't think there is any great emotional connection. Of course there is a greater commitment to Brexit than to NI. I suspect there is a greater commitment to a lot of issues than there is to NI. To pick an example out of thin air, I suspect if you told English people they would have to change the colour of their postboxes for the sake of the union with NI a solid majority would happily wave it goodbye.
    Scotland is different. For the English, we've mostly been to Scotland. There's an emotional connection even when there isn't a rational connection.
    That is not true, 49% of Tory voters would be upset if NI left the UK just 8% pleased.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

    Brexit has already been delivered
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    Beibheirli_C said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    Carnyx said:

    Beibheirli_C said:

    If Starmer starts to undo Brexit then I may vote Labour. If he maintains his current stance then he (and Labour) can go to hell along with the Tories

    Which is a particularly interesting point from a Scottish point of view. Not to mention NI.
    NI is disenfranchised anyway. No one living there can vote for a GB party. All they have to choose from is ex-terrorists and religious nutters who can never form a government in their own right.
    The SDLP, APNI and UUP are OK.
    SDLP has 2 MPs, Alliance has 1 MP and UUP have none. They are not exactly in a position to form a majority at Westminster. All of them need another few hundred MPs
    I was just pointing out they are NOT lapsed terrorists or religious nutters.
This discussion has been closed.

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