Odd how there seems to be a strong correlation between those who think England is disliked in other countries and having a particular opinion on Brexit.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. [Edit] We'd call it an internment camp today. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
Odd how there seems to be a strong correlation between those who think England is disliked in other countries and having a particular opinion on Brexit.
I think Brexit was a huge error and wished it had never happened as it was helping us be reintegrated into the world. I’m a for,er member of the LDs and hugely regret not campaigning for Remain. Sadly Brexit has just made the English the pariah of the world again, reversing some of the progress we made. It’s so sad and depressing. Rejoining would help it they’ll never let us back.
Kelloggs has lost its court case over banned sugary cereal offers in supermarkets. Its defence was that if you took milk into account, there was less sugar per rod, pole or perch. Kelloggs lost because:-
Judge Mr Justice Linden said Kellogg's cereals "do not come with instructions for preparation which say that they should be consumed with milk". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62034220
Cue Kelloggs adding a helpful panel on the back of each packet of cereal.
.. they don't?
Don't eat cereal these days but I do remember my Special K saying something like "nutritional information for 30g with 125 ml semi-skimmed milk" or somesuch.
Also often had a picture of a bowl of cereal with milk, and in small letters "Serving Suggestion". I assume this was insisted on by a lawyer to prevent anyone suing them upon not finding milk inside the box...
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
If a grassed catch is definitely not out, then it ought to be reversed. If it stands with the soft signal, then the third umpire couldn't definitively say out or not out.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
Another is that people in the EU don’t want them in. Like England,
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
I think there is a big difference between their view of the English and the government of the UK. Perfidious Albion is back in the historical mind because successive governments have been shown to refuse to negotiate in good faith and keep their word on agreements made. I'm certain they have no issue with the people or, more importantly, the businesses based in the UK. It is the inability to trust the government: partly because of this Conservative party, but also partly because the constitutional demand our parliament has to rip up any agreement it makes at any time it wants without recourse.
But that is seen as an English trait, one shared by all of us. They hate us as a people, a concept.
Unusually your posts are slightly off the wall today.
I think they are confused and baffled by us at times, and recognise we've always been semi-detached, but I don't think there's any hatred for us on the continent.
The member state who'd likely to be most difficult is France.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Again, as someone with Irish and English family, this is an extremely weird take. Ireland relies heavily on British tourists. I don't think the Irish don't welcome the English - whereas if you're being a lad painting a Union Jack on your face / wearing a flag shirt it may be noticed and commented on.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
In understand the reasoning given, but that is stupid reasoning when the umpire himself is calling for a TV replay (rather than a player reviewing).
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
Hmm, there was a rather obvious snag in SKS's speech:
Mr Blackford (quoted in Graun feed):
'The Labour Party are now indistinguishable from the Tories on Brexit. By running scared of the Tories and mutating into a pale imitation of Boris Johnson, Starmer is offering no real change at all.
With this hard Brexit U-turn Keir Starmer has perfectly encapsulated why Scotland needs to escape from Westminster control. Regaining Scotland’s place in Europe will be at the heart of the independence referendum.'
(and, of course, this recalls the broken promises of 2014, from *both* Unionist parties in chorus)
This is why Scotland would oppose England rejoining the EU. There would be an element of English control with MEPs and Commissioners - and English voters - having an (albeit diluted) say in Scots affairs. The Scots don’t want to leave one Union with England to join another. Then there would be the inability to stop the English flooding Scotland. That’s why there would be a veto. You can’t divorce the English and then move into a shared house with them. Blackford has said, basically, an Indie Scotland is would veto the application of the rUK.
I'm not sure I buy this argument. Union with England in the UK is an entirely different proposition to membership with England and 28 other countries in the EU
It’s about identity. The Scots need and want space from their geopolitical and ancestral enemy. They would be forced to cooperate and be friendly with England and the English in the EU. Further there would be no opportunity to stop the English moving there.
Like the French were forced to cooperate and be friendly with the UK during our membership ? As a motive for an independent Scotland vetoing English/rUK membership, that seems extraordinarily thin.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
So the thing I never knew about the Great Hunger was that the potato blight was something that hit the entire continent, but that the specific impact on Ireland was so harsh due to the farming methods demanded on leaseholders due to the British method of landlordism that was prevalent on the island.
Unusually your posts are slightly off the wall today.
I think they are confused and baffled by us at times, and recognise we've always been semi-detached, but I don't think there's any hatred for us on the continent.
The member state who'd likely to be most difficult is France.
And that's only for the politics. (Same as when Boris has a pop at the EU) Nice easy 5% uplift in the polls in France if you slag off the roast beefs.
Odd how there seems to be a strong correlation between those who think England is disliked in other countries and having a particular opinion on Brexit.
Is Leavers are patriots, Remainers are traitors the theme you had in mind?
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Again, as someone with Irish and English family, this is an extremely weird take. Ireland relies heavily on British tourists. I don't think the Irish don't welcome the English - whereas if you're being a lad painting a Union Jack on your face / wearing a flag shirt it may be noticed and commented on.
Nonsense. I went to my brother’s wedding to an Irish lady in a place called Bunratty on the West Coast. The hostility to our side of the family was palpable. Most visitors from England are those with family there already rated than tourists. Quite rightly given the history.
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
In understand the reasoning given, but that is stupid reasoning when the umpire himself is calling for a TV replay (rather than a player reviewing).
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
Its not ludicrous. The on field umpire is saying "I think it was out, but I'm not certain", or alternatively "I think it was not out, but I'm not certain". The third umpire then reviews the tape and says "it was definitely out" or "it was definitely not out" or "I can't tell for certain either, stick with your original decision". If the third umpire can't tell for certain, then the original decision is the reasonable one to stand by, especially for catches were the on field umpire can have a better view of the catch than TV cameras do (as they're at a much better angle so lens foreshortening comes into play less).
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
Kilmainham gaol welcomes English tourists.
Ireland would love us back in the EU. Solves all sorts for them.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
Kilmainham gaol welcomes English tourists.
Ireland would love us back in the EU. Solves all sorts for them.
Being put in prison is not exactly the most inviting prospect.
“It’s costing me £300 a week before I even get to work and earn anything,” “We had to leave those jobs because it was costing us £380 a week just to get to and from work.
How far are these people living from their place of work ? What on earth are they driving ?
Rather does beg the question of how they afforded it beforehand? Hadn't they ever thought of finding work closer? Or moving nearer?
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
If you believe that the sins of the fathers must be visited on the sons then maybe. By the same token Japanese should never visit Korea or China, Germans should stay away from Poland, Mongols shouldn’t venture out of the steppe and no Spaniard should go anywhere near South or Central America.
If you believe humans are humans and should be neither proud nor ashamed of what people from the same region did generations ago then you don’t buy this kind of blood guilt nonsense. But the not proud side of the bargain is important too.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
In understand the reasoning given, but that is stupid reasoning when the umpire himself is calling for a TV replay (rather than a player reviewing).
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
Its not ludicrous. The on field umpire is saying "I think it was out, but I'm not certain", or alternatively "I think it was not out, but I'm not certain". The third umpire then reviews the tape and says "it was definitely out" or "it was definitely not out" or "I can't tell for certain either, stick with your original decision". If the third umpire can't tell for certain, then the original decision is the reasonable one to stand by, especially for catches were the on field umpire can have a better view of the catch than TV cameras do (as they're at a much better angle so lens foreshortening comes into play less).
No. Why does he have to give any signal before reviewing the tape? Why can't he just watch the tape, then make a decision afterwards if he so wishes?
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
Another is that people in the EU don’t want them in. Like England,
It's a mutually convenient fiction. But it is a mistake to think that this is solely a case of the Europeans stringing the Turks on. EU entry is not particularly popular in Turkey; Erdogan has absolutely no desire to be constrained; the country has being going backwards on the accession criteria; and the Cypriots and the Greeks would almost certainly veto them at the last, even if every other European country was in favour.
“It’s costing me £300 a week before I even get to work and earn anything,” “We had to leave those jobs because it was costing us £380 a week just to get to and from work.
How far are these people living from their place of work ? What on earth are they driving ?
Rather does beg the question of how they afforded it beforehand? Hadn't they ever thought of finding work closer? Or moving nearer?
£380 would be ~ 4 tanks of fuel for me. Each tank is about 600 miles. 2,400 miles = 480 miles a day. 240 each way. @60 average, 8 hours commuting per day. I agree with the cause but they seem to have found the petrol equivalents of Steve Bray here.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
Kilmainham gaol welcomes English tourists.
Ireland would love us back in the EU. Solves all sorts for them.
Being put in prison is not exactly the most inviting prospect.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
Another is that people in the EU don’t want them in. Like England,
It's a mutually convenient fiction. But it is a mistake to think that this is solely a case of the Europeans stringing the Turks on. EU entry is not particularly popular in Turkey; Erdogan has absolutely no desire to be constrained; the country has being going backwards on the accession criteria; and the Cypriots and the Greeks would almost certainly veto them at the last, even if every other European country was in favour.
The Cypriots and Greeks are to Turkey what the Irish, French, and likely the Scots, are to England. They would veto - as would many others
@Beibheirli_C Hi just for clarity my comments on the last thread weren't aimed at you. I realise it might appear so, so if you took it to be so, sorry. It was a general comment about some people in the 60s and 70s.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
Another is that people in the EU don’t want them in. Like England,
It's a mutually convenient fiction. But it is a mistake to think that this is solely a case of the Europeans stringing the Turks on. EU entry is not particularly popular in Turkey; Erdogan has absolutely no desire to be constrained; the country has being going backwards on the accession criteria; and the Cypriots and the Greeks would almost certainly veto them at the last, even if every other European country was in favour.
I can't wait until I hear a blackmailer use that defence: No, your honour, I was not extorting him. I was acting in a pastoral role.
The whips don't want you to stop having embarrassing secrets. They want to use your embarrassing secrets to ensure loyalty.
Jamie Wallis MP on 30 March:
I’ve had a lot of support from the Whips since I was elected. Not for the reasons you might think, but there’s a lot that goes on in MPs lives and the Whips play an important wellbeing role – as far as I’ve seen they try their best to support and help MPs who are having a tough time. Well they’ve certainly earned their keep with me.
"Having a tough time? Gambling debts piling up? Is your secretary pregnant with your child? Did you steal from your local Conservative Association? We're here for a sympathetic ear, a comforting word, and the absolute certainty that any past indiscretions will be used to ensure your future loyalty."
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
In understand the reasoning given, but that is stupid reasoning when the umpire himself is calling for a TV replay (rather than a player reviewing).
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
Its not ludicrous. The on field umpire is saying "I think it was out, but I'm not certain", or alternatively "I think it was not out, but I'm not certain". The third umpire then reviews the tape and says "it was definitely out" or "it was definitely not out" or "I can't tell for certain either, stick with your original decision". If the third umpire can't tell for certain, then the original decision is the reasonable one to stand by, especially for catches were the on field umpire can have a better view of the catch than TV cameras do (as they're at a much better angle so lens foreshortening comes into play less).
No. Why does he have to give any signal before reviewing the tape? Why can't he just watch the tape, then make a decision afterwards if he so wishes?
What are you talking about? The on field umpires never review the tapes, they've not got TV screens with them. That's the third umpire's job. And the third umpire never makes the original calls.
The on field umpire makes calls, the third umpire reviews the tapes, that's how its broken down. On field umpires never do so, they make the original calls.
The soft signal is excellent because lens foreshortening is a well known problem, so having the on field decision first is an extremely sensible solution to handle that. Margin of error goes to the umpire (not the batter as is often mistakenly claimed).
“Scoop: I obtained an email from the equity manager of Oregon's state health agency—she delayed a community meeting and then justified this on grounds that "urgency is a white supremacy value."”
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
If you believe that the sins of the fathers must be visited on the sons then maybe. By the same token Japanese should never visit Korea or China, Germans should stay away from Poland, Mongols shouldn’t venture out of the steppe and no Spaniard should go anywhere near South or Central America.
If you believe humans are humans and should be neither proud nor ashamed of what people from the same region did generations ago then you don’t buy this kind of blood guilt nonsense. But the not proud side of the bargain is important too.
The Chinese aren't great fans of the Japanese at all, tbf. This is a one China policy. It pervades the PRC and Taiwan.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Even the Viceroy's House (Indian director) managed to do this five years ago.
We were simultaneously criticised for having been there too long and for cutting and running in the same film.
Blaming all of India's ills on the English, regardless of what they are, is very common there.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
I left Scotland at 18 and spent part of my childhood in the NE of England, and have English parents. My Scottish accent has gone AWOL and most people meeting me would assume I am English and I don't usually correct them. My wife and kids sound unambiguously English. I have never encountered this hostility that you apparently find in every corner of the globe. I don't want to victim blame, but if everyone you meet hates you I do wonder...
I have a relative.... she's on her fourth job in ten years. Every job she leaves, citing they're all arseholes!
I've said to my wife, quietly..... "If everyone is the arsehole, it's not them.... it's you."
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
I think there is a big difference between their view of the English and the government of the UK. Perfidious Albion is back in the historical mind because successive governments have been shown to refuse to negotiate in good faith and keep their word on agreements made. I'm certain they have no issue with the people or, more importantly, the businesses based in the UK. It is the inability to trust the government: partly because of this Conservative party, but also partly because the constitutional demand our parliament has to rip up any agreement it makes at any time it wants without recourse.
But that is seen as an English trait, one shared by all of us. They hate us as a people, a concept.
Unusually your posts are slightly off the wall today.
I think they are confused and baffled by us at times, and recognise we've always been semi-detached, but I don't think there's any hatred for us on the continent.
The member state who'd likely to be most difficult is France.
I'm just glad to see you're safe, CR.
@rcs1000 said earlier that you'd been shot in Montenegro.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
What do you mean?
Back to Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, the English are best I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!... The English are noble, the English are nice And worth any other at double the price!... The English are moral, the English are good And clever and modest and misunderstood!"
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
That's fine, as long as we consider both sides of the ledger and use it as a basis for having the confidence to call out others for their poor behaviour today as well.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
What do you mean?
Back to Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, the English are best I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!... The English are noble, the English are nice And worth any other at double the price!... The English are moral, the English are good And clever and modest and misunderstood!"
We’re not good or moral or any of that stuff. Which is why we are, in an excellent phrase upthread, the Millwall of the world.
“It’s costing me £300 a week before I even get to work and earn anything,” “We had to leave those jobs because it was costing us £380 a week just to get to and from work.
How far are these people living from their place of work ? What on earth are they driving ?
Rather does beg the question of how they afforded it beforehand? Hadn't they ever thought of finding work closer? Or moving nearer?
£380 would be ~ 4 tanks of fuel for me. Each tank is about 600 miles. 2,400 miles = 480 miles a day. 240 each way. @60 average, 8 hours commuting per day. I agree with the cause but they seem to have found the petrol equivalents of Steve Bray here.
The Cornish guy is claiming it costs him £770 a month for 4 round trips to London. Also segues into a whinge about his son missing him. Which has nowt to do at all with the price of fuel. Everything to do with his lifestyle choices.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
“It’s costing me £300 a week before I even get to work and earn anything,” “We had to leave those jobs because it was costing us £380 a week just to get to and from work.
How far are these people living from their place of work ? What on earth are they driving ?
Rather does beg the question of how they afforded it beforehand? Hadn't they ever thought of finding work closer? Or moving nearer?
£380 would be ~ 4 tanks of fuel for me. Each tank is about 600 miles. 2,400 miles = 480 miles a day. 240 each way. @60 average, 8 hours commuting per day. I agree with the cause but they seem to have found the petrol equivalents of Steve Bray here.
The Cornish guy is claiming it costs him £770 a month for 4 round trips to London.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
???? The Congo would like a word.
Would that be the Belgian Congo or the French Congo?
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
If you believe that the sins of the fathers must be visited on the sons then maybe. By the same token Japanese should never visit Korea...
Well that animus still very much a thing, on both sides - but at the same time Japan is the most popular tourist destination by far for South Koreans, and there is considerable trade and increasing defence cooperation between the two nations.
History is complicated, and its shadow can be very long indeed, but no one should stay a prisoner of it.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
What do you mean?
Back to Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, the English are best I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!... The English are noble, the English are nice And worth any other at double the price!... The English are moral, the English are good And clever and modest and misunderstood!"
We’re not good or moral or any of that stuff. Which is why we are, in an excellent phrase upthread, the Millwall of the world.
I believe the "Song of Patriotic Prejudice" was meant to be a deeply ironic tale of English empire.
Don't forget Michael Flander's daughter is left-wing economist Stephanie.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
???? The Congo would like a word.
Would that be the Belgian Congo or the French Congo?
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
I once met an Irish guy in Clifton Connemara who showed me the “famine fields” - bare fields with oddly ribbed pasture which shows up in a slanted evening light. They are the marginal fields furrowed by people before the Famine, and never tilled since
Very moving. He showed me these with historical passion, and because he thought I might be interested (I was) and then we had a few drinks together. Revealed not an iota of animosity, not even when we were both drunk. Cracking bloke
If he could do all that without showing any animosity to the Englishman then I dunno where others are finding the hate
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that the on-field umpires are making the initial call and the third umpire only reverses it if they clearly made a mistake.
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
In understand the reasoning given, but that is stupid reasoning when the umpire himself is calling for a TV replay (rather than a player reviewing).
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
Its not ludicrous. The on field umpire is saying "I think it was out, but I'm not certain", or alternatively "I think it was not out, but I'm not certain". The third umpire then reviews the tape and says "it was definitely out" or "it was definitely not out" or "I can't tell for certain either, stick with your original decision". If the third umpire can't tell for certain, then the original decision is the reasonable one to stand by, especially for catches were the on field umpire can have a better view of the catch than TV cameras do (as they're at a much better angle so lens foreshortening comes into play less).
No. Why does he have to give any signal before reviewing the tape? Why can't he just watch the tape, then make a decision afterwards if he so wishes?
What are you talking about? The on field umpires never review the tapes, they've not got TV screens with them. That's the third umpire's job. And the third umpire never makes the original calls.
The on field umpire makes calls, the third umpire reviews the tapes, that's how its broken down. On field umpires never do so, they make the original calls.
The soft signal is excellent because lens foreshortening is a well known problem, so having the on field decision first is an extremely sensible solution to handle that. Margin of error goes to the umpire (not the batter as is often mistakenly claimed).
What I am talking about is I would hope clear. Why can't the onfield (and third) umpire review the tape before making a soft signal when they themselves have called for the tape BECAUSE THEY ARE DOUBTFUL.
In Crawley's case just now, neither umpire was clear. So they called for the tape. But, they still had to give a signal first.
More logical, if they are doubtful, is to give them the option of reviewing the tape before they make any signal, should they so wish.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
Indeed, it is a while since I was last there, but no hostility, nor when visiting Scotland. Neither have I found any resentment in the former British colonies that I have visited in Asia, Africa, Caribbean and Australasia. Not in Continental Europe too.
Perhaps people who are twattish gits get treated contemptuously in these places and blame their reception on being English.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
I once met an Irish guy in Clifton Connemara who showed me the “famine fields” - bare fields with oddly ribbed pasture which shows up in a slanted evening light. They are the marginal fields furrowed by people before the Famine, and never tilled since
Very moving. He showed me these with historical passion, and because he thought I might be interested (I was) and then we had a few drinks together. Revealed not an iota of animosity, not even when we were both drunk. Cracking bloke
If he could do all that without showing any animosity to the Englishman then I dunno where others are finding the hate
He was very rude about Catholic priests, tho
The Irish Times says there is a “hate the English” attitude in Ireland. I’m not making this up -
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
If you believe that the sins of the fathers must be visited on the sons then maybe. By the same token Japanese should never visit Korea or China, Germans should stay away from Poland, Mongols shouldn’t venture out of the steppe and no Spaniard should go anywhere near South or Central America.
If you believe humans are humans and should be neither proud nor ashamed of what people from the same region did generations ago then you don’t buy this kind of blood guilt nonsense. But the not proud side of the bargain is important too.
The Chinese aren't great fans of the Japanese at all, tbf. This is a one China policy. It pervades the PRC and Taiwan.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
???? The Congo would like a word.
Would that be the Belgian Congo or the French Congo?
Belgian/Leopold - 10 million deaths.
They will have caught up that number since independence.....
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
There were no specific death camps, but there were continued administrative decision to allow millions of Indians to die of starvation rather than feed them with food grown in their own country, something that was a repetition from the Great Hunger of Ireland. The Bengal Famine under Churchill alone led to 3 million dead, and there was available food for Indians grown on Indian soil, it was just held in reserve for soldiers.
That would come as news to Archibald Wavell who as Viceroy from September 1943 went to extraordinary lengths to alleviate the famine, and indeed was praised for it subsequently.
The problem arose due to the incompetence and corruption of the provincial Bengal government who prioritised the urban middle class, and the Government of India left left them to it for too long as they were focused on the armed forces.
Comparison to the Nazis is offensive and this hyperbolic sensationalising of history does no-one any favours.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Are you trolling us, or serious?
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
I see those ads. They should read “Visit Ireland and be met by barely concealed hostility, you murdering bastards”.
This is genuine and frankly worrying paranoia.
It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.
Well I must be hugely insensitive cos I go to Ireland all the time and I never noticed anyone being out to get me.
Indeed, it is a while since I was last there, but no hostility, nor when visiting Scotland. Neither have I found any resentment in the former British colonies that I have visited in Asia, Africa, Caribbean and Australasia. Not in Continental Europe too.
Perhaps people who are twattish gits get treated contemptuously in these places and blame their reception on being English.
I don’t know. Perhaps. It’s been a while since I went. Last time I was in the US my wife’s aunt accused my mother, who is the grandmother to two Irish grandkids, and a doting one at that, of being anti-Irish. Since then I have stayed home. I can’t face that sort of unwarranted hostility.
Kelloggs has lost its court case over banned sugary cereal offers in supermarkets. Its defence was that if you took milk into account, there was less sugar per rod, pole or perch. Kelloggs lost because:-
Judge Mr Justice Linden said Kellogg's cereals "do not come with instructions for preparation which say that they should be consumed with milk". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62034220
Cue Kelloggs adding a helpful panel on the back of each packet of cereal.
.. they don't?
Don't eat cereal these days but I do remember my Special K saying something like "nutritional information for 30g with 125 ml semi-skimmed milk" or somesuch.
Milk is full of sugar. If you wanted to cut down on thr sugar, you would have it without milk, though due to the water content of milk, the percentage of sugar in the overall dish would fall.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake.
The other question is whether our former colonies have governed themselves any better or more humanely overall since independence? African dictators have given the idea of asset stripping whole new meanings, love playing tribes off against each other, and even committing mass killings or genocide. And after the Chinese government's recent treatment of Hong Kong, who can seriously say that that territory is better off now than under our absent-minded, benevolent post-war rule?
Some countries have done better since independence, some have not, which is why you see occasional politicians or opinion polls wishing that they were still part of our empire.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. [Edit] We'd call it an internment camp today. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
There were no extermination camps in South Africa and of course the Boers themselves introduced Apartheid
Odd how there seems to be a strong correlation between those who think England is disliked in other countries and having a particular opinion on Brexit.
I think people are amenable to you wherever you go.
I've just got back from Bulgaria and my wife's father is now very Eurosceptic (he says he's jealous of us) and both her aunt and her brother said they'd have voted Leave had they been British too. Only her brother's wife expressed reservations about Brexit. But I didn't invite any of it.
Also, her parents next door neighbours came out with their children to play with my daughter because they heard "an English girl was in the village" and were excited to meet her.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
I'm more familiar with the potato famine in the Highlands and Islands, and the wider social and economic issues there, but it's certainly time I read up some more about An Gorta Mór as my Irish friend calls it.
It’s a good reason for English people to stay out of Ireland.
If you believe that the sins of the fathers must be visited on the sons then maybe. By the same token Japanese should never visit Korea or China, Germans should stay away from Poland, Mongols shouldn’t venture out of the steppe and no Spaniard should go anywhere near South or Central America.
If you believe humans are humans and should be neither proud nor ashamed of what people from the same region did generations ago then you don’t buy this kind of blood guilt nonsense. But the not proud side of the bargain is important too.
The Chinese aren't great fans of the Japanese at all, tbf. This is a one China policy. It pervades the PRC and Taiwan.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
There were no specific death camps, but there were continued administrative decision to allow millions of Indians to die of starvation rather than feed them with food grown in their own country, something that was a repetition from the Great Hunger of Ireland. The Bengal Famine under Churchill alone led to 3 million dead, and there was available food for Indians grown on Indian soil, it was just held in reserve for soldiers.
The 'Bengal Famine' was in the middle of WW2 when British forces were themselves running out of food, the alternative was Japan and the Nazis won WW2
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
I do think this is part of the English psyche - that accepting empire was bad for the countries invaded by the UK means that they must hate us. I don't think any of these places hate us, they just know the history of imperialism. The UK is has such a fantabulous and childish view of it's own role in world history that any level of acceptance of how bad the empire was by other countries is, in turn, internalised by us as hatred of us now. Similar to how many right wing Americans can't accept criticism of the US of the past without it hurting their feelings about the US of the present or their own individual identity.
Brit fragility.
Quite. It goes hand in hand with the Churchill hero worship and such. Like, say what you want about Germany (for example), but they have made it a core part of their education to learn about the atrocities committed in their name and have instilled a desire not to repeat that. Whereas the UK education system is specifically and politically designed to prevent that, and so you have MPs saying we should threaten Ireland with famine over Brexit with 0 understanding how absolutely outrageous that is just in context of our history.
I’m in the odd position, perhaps, of being a liberal who thinks that Churchill was great, the Empire an often glorious enterprise, and I much happier that the British helped create the modern age than competing traditions.
But there is still, to me, a pompous little England-ism that seems to think the UK is uniquely virtuous, that there’s nothing to learn from foreigners, and that they can’t be trusted besides. You see it on here most days, expressed as bizarre, ignorant, and often paranoiac tripe about the EU, Germany, France, the US, etc, etc.
I’d say the cure is travel, but actually the British are pretty well-travelled. Perhaps compulsory learning of a foreign language from infancy is required.
I think you're correct that the British Empire helped create the modern age, but that's no good thing in my mind. The asset stripping of other countries, the playing locals against each others and engineering of internal conflict, the mass death and destruction of communities and environments left in the wake. Would any other great powers' Empire have been better; of course not - the French Empire have their crimes, Belgium and the Congo, Japanese imperialism etc. But we have a responsibility to understand and come to terms with our history, not others; that's their responsibility.
Ok, but this always seems to come with the implication that the British were uniquely bad, or white people uniquely rapacious, and that I am to feel some sense of shame thereby.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
I don't think we need to feel a specific sense of shame, but we should at least be aware of the truth of the history. And I do think that European imperialism was significantly brutal and, most importantly, still relevant to our modern world.
English imperialism was the worst which is why we’re not very welcome most places.
???? The Congo would like a word.
Would that be the Belgian Congo or the French Congo?
Belgian/Leopold - 10 million deaths.
They will have caught up that number since independence.....
The underreporting of African wars and conflicts is one of the 'twas ever thus of modern times.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Again, as someone with Irish and English family, this is an extremely weird take. Ireland relies heavily on British tourists. I don't think the Irish don't welcome the English - whereas if you're being a lad painting a Union Jack on your face / wearing a flag shirt it may be noticed and commented on.
Nonsense. I went to my brother’s wedding to an Irish lady in a place called Bunratty on the West Coast. The hostility to our side of the family was palpable. Most visitors from England are those with family there already rated than tourists. Quite rightly given the history.
That's just you. You've started to notice it now, and it will find you, and you will find it. A person without your notions would walk into the same room and have a totally different experience.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
The EU don't trust Johnson, with good reason, but I think would be much more open to negotiating a closer relationship with a different PM who approached the negotiations in a cooperative and honest spirit. I think they would be overjoyed if we rejoined , what better way to demonstrate the attractiveness of EU membership than to welcome us back into the fold, but they would want to see a stable pro-EU majority in place first as there is no appetite to go through this time-wasting shitshow again.
He’s made it worse deeper than Johnson. It’s a dislike and distrust of the English nation. They hate us with a passion. That’s why they’re so keen on getting the Scots in. Always have to an extent but Johnson’s given them the opportunity to express it openly.
What is your evidence for this assertion? I interact fairly regularly with current and former EU officials and most are Anglophiles, whose overwhelming emotional response to Brexit has been sadness, coupled with irritation that the UK government is trying to renegotiate its own deal and is once again using up bandwidth when there are more serious things to focus on. They do have a genuine loathing for Johnson for being so dishonest, but then that has also become the settled view on this side of the channel too.
Interaction with current and former EU officials, current politicians and EU citizens. There is a visceral shiver when an English person enters the room. Largely due to Johnson bringing it to the fore
Is there anyone in your view who doesn't harbour a visceral hatred of the English? Or have you become the Millwall of Europe?
Most countries hate us. Al Murray did a series on it.
In my experience most countries hate the English a lot less than you might think they would have reason to. I would put Ireland, India and the countries of the Anglophone Caribbean at the top of this list of cutting the English a lot more slack than they probably deserve.
Indian TV and film routinely depicts the English the way Anglophone media depicts WW2 Germans. Either bungling or irredeemably evil.
This has noticeably intensified with rise of Modi/BJP.
Modern, or for that period? Because for the colonial period, the British occupation of the Indian sub continent is definitely comparable to the horrors of Nazi rule- in body count, political oppression, economic destruction etc. The UK only ignore it because we view ourselves as the good guys in WW2 and we killed people at a slower pace compared to the death camps. Inglorious Empire is a highly enlightening read to understand what the Empire did to the continent.
Not that Modi has any moral high ground.
What a load of rubbish. British rule in India was not perfect but in no way whatsoever was it comparable to the Nazis and Holocaust.
There was no mass genocide of Indians, no extermination camps for Hindus
Quite
The slur on Our Empire suggesting that it treated Indians as if they were a lot of Africans is intolerable
HYUFD is quite right on one detail, the extermination camps were for Christians. But in Africa (Southern). ,Vide the "concentration camp" (c) British Empire, 2nd Boer War. Shocking, and if not intentional then hardly unsurprising, mortality throigh overcrowding, disease and bad food.
I also recommend this podcast discussing the Great Hunger in Ireland and how the British Government engineered it:
The famine is the main reason English visitors are so unwelcome in Ireland - quite rightly. It’s not right English people should go there,
Again, as someone with Irish and English family, this is an extremely weird take. Ireland relies heavily on British tourists. I don't think the Irish don't welcome the English - whereas if you're being a lad painting a Union Jack on your face / wearing a flag shirt it may be noticed and commented on.
Nonsense. I went to my brother’s wedding to an Irish lady in a place called Bunratty on the West Coast. The hostility to our side of the family was palpable. Most visitors from England are those with family there already rated than tourists. Quite rightly given the history.
That's just you. You've started to notice it now, and it will find you, and you will find it. A person without your notions would walk into the same room and have a totally different experience.
I’m pretty sure it would be impossible to put a positive spin on some of the things that were said.
I left Scotland at 18 and spent part of my childhood in the NE of England, and have English parents. My Scottish accent has gone AWOL and most people meeting me would assume I am English and I don't usually correct them. My wife and kids sound unambiguously English. I have never encountered this hostility that you apparently find in every corner of the globe. I don't want to victim blame, but if everyone you meet hates you I do wonder...
I have a relative.... she's on her fourth job in ten years. Every job she leaves, citing they're all arseholes!
I've said to my wife, quietly..... "If everyone is the arsehole, it's not them.... it's you."
When I was at Goldman, my bosses (plural) ran through five PAs in less than two years. And - by the way - with overtime, this was an extremely well paid administrative role, where it was quite possible in the late 90s to earn 60-80k p.a. (which was more than the junior analyst got...)
As they bemoaned how difficult it was to get staff, I gently noted that none of the other teams seemed to have burned through as many secretaries as they did. And maybe... just maybe... the problem wasn't entirely with the secretaries.
What is the point of the soft signal rule? If the umpire is going to the TV replay anyway, why should he have to give any signal whatsoever before reviewing the tape?
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
The point is that a decision has to be made whether the video replay is conclusive or not and so you go with the on-field umpires best judgement if there isn't string evidence to go against it.
After Labour's capitulation on Brexit NOT having Boris Johnson is Labour's only remaining USP.
It’s not a capitulation, Roger, it’s reality. The EU are not letting us back. Labour can only repair relations. Johnson reinforced the pre-existing Anglophobia in the EU and turned it into a loathing that can never heal. It’s over. We can’t go back after pissing on the doormat on the way out. It’s sad but it’s the reality.
FOM and a single market on the other should be an imperative.
Labour are all over the place. Useless!
FOM would be a hostage to fortune - the squeeze on low end employee availability will eventually ease, as business adapt. If that coincides with an FOM deal, then the two will be linked inextricably.
The removal of FOM is why we have no HGV drivers, not enough educated blue collar workers, and shortages in care and health services, let alone the fact that we can't up-sticks and live unfettered in Spain or the South of France like we could before we lost that right.
I am not demanding re-join, but this policy is absurd. It is pandering to the terminally stupid.
It takes two to tango. Why do you think an SM option is open to us? We are not rejoining the SM - we can’t. We are too hated, too despised elsewhere in Europe. We are not trusted is an understatement. It’s over. I’m sad about it but we’re not going to be allowed back.
I agree we are never going back, but the EU would be insane if they didn't welcome us back into a friction free trading area that includes FOM. When the alternative is Johnsonian chaos, breaching international treaties and subduing our own and EU reciprocal trade I believe they would bite our hand off.
If this capitulation to RedWall morons is the best Labour can do we might as well continue voting Johnson just for the giggles.
Why? Why would they want us in the SM? There’s no benefit in having England in it. Better to get the Scots in and the Welsh and choke England economically and strategically until it’s an unviable entity. No more England, no more English = no more Johnson’s. Everyone’s happy.
Do you genuinely think that the European Union wouldn't jump at the chance of having the world's fifth largest economy (and if the UK split, England would still be top 10 on its own) moving back into its orbit purely out of spite? You've parroted this line out all day but bureaucracy doesn't see emotion. Any member state that opposed for political point scoring would be bullied into line as well.
As it happens, I don't agree with us rejoining the SM or the CU. I think it would cement long term decline as we'd be signing up to follow rules we didn't have any real say in making, although I'd be open to concessions including FOM if it made things easier outside the SM or CU as I was never against things like FOM. The best deal we could have had with the EU was the one we had, but that ship has long sailed and if we can't have a say in the decisions that are made, we should keep the EU at arms length.
Yes. I do. They’ve keep out Turkey for less justified reasons.
Ummm: one of the reasons being that Turkey has never been particularly serious about satisfying the Aquis.
Another is that people in the EU don’t want them in. Like England,
It's a mutually convenient fiction. But it is a mistake to think that this is solely a case of the Europeans stringing the Turks on. EU entry is not particularly popular in Turkey; Erdogan has absolutely no desire to be constrained; the country has being going backwards on the accession criteria; and the Cypriots and the Greeks would almost certainly veto them at the last, even if every other European country was in favour.
The Cypriots and Greeks are to Turkey what the Irish, French, and likely the Scots, are to England. They would veto - as would many others
If we - for a moment - pretend that the Turks were serious about becoming EU members (which they're not), and met the accession criteria (which they do not), and that Erdogan was prepared to make appropriate democratic and rule of law reforms (which he won't), then I suspect that the rest of the EU would allow Cyprus to veto the Turks while shrugging their shoulders and adopting a "well, watcha know" stance.
Comments
Makes for farcical scenes like the two grassed catches (neither of which were out) but only one of which was given because the 'soft signal' was out.
Nevertheless, justice done with Crawley's non-wicket just then.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/part-one-that-time-britain-did-a-genocide-in-ireland/id1373812661?i=1000557220919
For catching close to the ground and for LBWs there's a margin of error where its impossible for the third umpire to definitively say out or not out, so in those instances the umpire's call (soft signal) stands.
If a grassed catch is definitely not out, then it ought to be reversed. If it stands with the soft signal, then the third umpire couldn't definitively say out or not out.
I think they are confused and baffled by us at times, and recognise we've always been semi-detached, but I don't think there's any hatred for us on the continent.
The member state who'd likely to be most difficult is France.
In cases where – just as now – the umpire is calling for TV, he should be allowed to review the tape BEFORE giving any signal IMO. Otherwise you have a ludicrous 'clear and obvious error' stipulation when no such stipulation is necessary. Daft.
As a motive for an independent Scotland vetoing English/rUK membership, that seems extraordinarily thin.
You seem to think that everyone hates us, and that's not true. The French would likely veto English/UK accession, as they did once before, but that's because their vision and our vision of Europe are very, very different and they'd like to get their own way. Not because of hatred.
No reason English people shouldn't go to Ireland and many do go on holiday there every single year. Irish firms spend a lot of money advertising in England every year, "Irish Ferries" are always advertising on the radio it seems.
Nice easy 5% uplift in the polls in France if you slag off the roast beefs.
I've not heard that before.
Ireland would love us back in the EU. Solves all sorts for them.
I personally don’t buy into any of that.
It was much easier in Christian times, perhaps, when we understood that sin is an inescapable part of the human condition, but that so are kindness, charity, courage and glory.
Hadn't they ever thought of finding work closer? Or moving nearer?
If you believe humans are humans and should be neither proud nor ashamed of what people from the same region did generations ago then you don’t buy this kind of blood guilt nonsense. But the not proud side of the bargain is important too.
I agree with the cause but they seem to have found the petrol equivalents of Steve Bray here.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/02/eu.france
The on field umpire makes calls, the third umpire reviews the tapes, that's how its broken down. On field umpires never do so, they make the original calls.
The soft signal is excellent because lens foreshortening is a well known problem, so having the on field decision first is an extremely sensible solution to handle that. Margin of error goes to the umpire (not the batter as is often mistakenly claimed).
https://twitter.com/robbysoave/status/1543332193988132864?s=21&t=IURk5oABDs1VkJc4t8TUtg
Yes, my mortgage payment is 3 months late, and what of it? Are you a white supremacist??
This is a one China policy. It pervades the PRC and Taiwan.
We were simultaneously criticised for having been there too long and for cutting and running in the same film.
Blaming all of India's ills on the English, regardless of what they are, is very common there.
@rcs1000 said earlier that you'd been shot in Montenegro.
Back to Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!...
The English are noble, the English are nice
And worth any other at double the price!...
The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood!"
Also segues into a whinge about his son missing him.
Which has nowt to do at all with the price of fuel.
Everything to do with his lifestyle choices.
History is complicated, and its shadow can be very long indeed, but no one should stay a prisoner of it.
Don't forget Michael Flander's daughter is left-wing economist Stephanie.
Very moving. He showed me these with historical passion, and because he thought I might be interested (I was) and then we had a few drinks together. Revealed not an iota of animosity, not even when we were both drunk. Cracking bloke
If he could do all that without showing any animosity to the Englishman then I dunno where others are finding the hate
He was very rude about Catholic priests, tho
*Urgent edit: that comment re TSE was intended to indicate that he was the one sober exception, not the other way round. Apologies.
In Crawley's case just now, neither umpire was clear. So they called for the tape. But, they still had to give a signal first.
More logical, if they are doubtful, is to give them the option of reviewing the tape before they make any signal, should they so wish.
Perhaps people who are twattish gits get treated contemptuously in these places and blame their reception on being English.
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/generation-emigration/we-need-to-rethink-our-innate-hate-the-english-attitude-1.2383834
Taiwan, Japan ruling parties discuss China, military cooperation
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-japan-ruling-parties-discuss-china-military-cooperation-2021-08-27/
Taiwan-Japan military ties possible
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2022/05/21/2003778542
Democracies tend not to be the prisoners of history, even when it's relatively recent and raw.
The problem arose due to the incompetence and corruption of the provincial Bengal government who prioritised the urban middle class, and the Government of India left left them to it for too long as they were focused on the armed forces.
Comparison to the Nazis is offensive and this hyperbolic sensationalising of history does no-one any favours.
Barely had any empire at all but still managed to squeeze in two, maybe three holocausts in Namibia alone
And there were genuine holocausts. Genocides. One German officer proclaimed an explicit “extermination order”
Vernichtungsbefehl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
Some countries have done better since independence, some have not, which is why you see occasional politicians or opinion polls wishing that they were still part of our empire.
I've just got back from Bulgaria and my wife's father is now very Eurosceptic (he says he's jealous of us) and both her aunt and her brother said they'd have voted Leave had they been British too. Only her brother's wife expressed reservations about Brexit. But I didn't invite any of it.
Also, her parents next door neighbours came out with their children to play with my daughter because they heard "an English girl was in the village" and were excited to meet her.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1543964967573020678
Both Mordaunt and Wallace beat Truss
Liz Truss: 38 per cent.
Penny Mordaunt: 44 per cent.
Liz Truss: 19 per cent.
(779 votes cast)
–
Liz Truss: 33 per cent.
Ben Wallace: 51 per cent.
Don’t know: 16 per cent.
(777 votes cast)
https://conservativehome.com/2022/07/04/next-tory-leader-play-offs-third-liz-truss/
Wallace then beats Mordaunt to emerge as the clear favourite for next Tory leader and PM if Boris loses a VONC
Penny Mordaunt: 30 per cent.
Ben Wallace: 54 per cent.
Don’t know: 15 per cent.
(777 votes cast)
https://conservativehome.com/2022/07/04/next-tory-leader-play-offs-first-ben-wallace-second-penny-mordaunt/
As they bemoaned how difficult it was to get staff, I gently noted that none of the other teams seemed to have burned through as many secretaries as they did. And maybe... just maybe... the problem wasn't entirely with the secretaries.