Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Tamworth – the next by-election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 10 in General
imageTamworth – the next by-election? – politicalbetting.com

So far at least Mr. Pincher (which seems an unfortunate name given the circumstances) has not resigned as an MP and we await the inquiry into what actually happened that caused this whole affair to explode yesterday.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,008
    Inconsistent and unfair treatment of offenders is always a good way to make a scandal worse.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,191
    New YouGov MRP: Tories set to lose 26 of their 64 their Con-Lib Dem battleground seats, including Dominic Raab and Jeremy Hunt's constituencies

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/07/02/conservatives-set-lose-26-their-64-lib-dem-battleg https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1543133517957275649/photo/1
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,391
    I’ve been saying for a while on here that the Midlands is now the Tory heartland. Outside of the big cities and a few university towns like Leamington and Warwick, Labour remains deeply toxic and will do so for a while yet. That makes Tamworth a guaranteed Tory hold. The interesting bit would be the size of the majority.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,191
    NEW: Tory rebels step up plans to get rid of Boris Johnson in wake of Pincher allegations https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/johnson-returns-to-an-angry-rebellious-tory-party
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. This doesn't seem likely to lead to a criminal conviction. The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    I would prefer that we had a stronger recall mechanism so that the voters of Tamworth had a means to make their views known without waiting for a general election.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598

    I’ve been saying for a while on here that the Midlands is now the Tory heartland. Outside of the big cities and a few university towns like Leamington and Warwick, Labour remains deeply toxic and will do so for a while yet. That makes Tamworth a guaranteed Tory hold. The interesting bit would be the size of the majority.

    🔸?.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,191

    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. ... The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    Why would that help?

    Assault is assault, wherever it happens, surely?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786
    Oh dear, Ireland
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,286
    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598

    I’ve been saying for a while on here that the Midlands is now the Tory heartland. Outside of the big cities and a few university towns like Leamington and Warwick, Labour remains deeply toxic and will do so for a while yet. That makes Tamworth a guaranteed Tory hold. The interesting bit would be the size of the majority.

    Ok, why is that?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    edited July 2
    The curse of the new thread! Posted this at the end of the last one but I thought I'd repost it!

    ydoethur said:
    » show previous quotes
    Labour have held it before, not that long ago.

    And Pincher has been a very bad MP, and is not personally popular. Easy to imagine a better candidate might get a boost (if they can find one, but I happen to know one is available).

    But the real significance of Tamworth is the electorate it represents. The not affluent but property owning, solid, manufacturing based, perhaps slightly unambitious but very dependable backbone of middle England. The Tories' safe heartland.

    If the Tories were to lose it, they would have lost in the Red Wall (Wakefield) the commuter belt (Chesham) the rural blue wall (Tiverton and Oswestry) and the skilled working areas (Tamworth). At this point, you would begin to wonder what seats they *could* rely on.\

    My comment was:
    Without wishing to go all Epping, Chris Pincher has increased his vote-share at all of the recent elections I don't know Tamworth; I've only ever been there once, but it did seem the sort of seat that the modern Conservatives ought to hold!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755
    Jonathan said:

    With Chris Pincher MP on the way out, how long before the spotlight falls on Sir Richard Fiddler MP and Roger Rogerson QC MP?

    I find there is actually an Aussie radio called Richard Fidler.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Fidler

    What were his parents thinking?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,008
    edited July 2
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    Nevertheless, that is problematical. Edit} Asssuming that there was indeed a substantial offence, to do as you outline would, I think, be perceived as letting Mr Pincher off lightly after the summary treatment of Mr Parish, which latter is now irreversible. (Even if it is impossible to give any precise comparative valuations in the calculus of moral opprobrium.)

    The perceived implication is that it depends how much dirt one knows about on one's superiors. And/or how many chums one has in the Parliamentary Party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755
    And my reply to his Venerable Cheerful Majesty was:

    ydoethur said:

    theakes said:

    By Election at Tamworth? Cons will hold, also do not think there will be a Lib Dem quiet campaign for Labour.

    Labour have held it before, not that long ago.

    And Pincher has been a very bad MP, and is not personally popular. Easy to imagine a better candidate might get a boost (if they can find one, but I happen to know one is available).

    But the real significance of Tamworth is the electorate it represents. The not affluent but property owning, solid, manufacturing based, perhaps slightly unambitious but very dependable backbone of middle England. The Tories' safe heartland.

    If the Tories were to lose it, they would have lost in the Red Wall (Wakefield) the commuter belt (Chesham) the rural blue wall (Tiverton and Oswestry) and the skilled working areas (Tamworth). At this point, you would begin to wonder what seats they *could* rely on.
    Without wishing to go all Epping, Chris Pincher has increased his vote-share at all of the
    recent elections I don't know Tamworth; I've only ever been there once, but it did seem the sort of seat that the modern Conservatives ought to hold!
    They've increased their vote share in I think every seat in Staffordshire in that time. That isn't unique to Tamworth.

    I entirely agree they should hold it, if only because there's no real tradition of Liberal Democrat strength (unlike Lichfield) and Labour are more or less moribund. I was thinking more about the implications if they were to lose it.

    But then, they should have held North Shropshire and didn't, and there wasn't a strong Lib Dem tradition there either.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,339
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    Oh sweet summer child. Politicians are not humans, they are pawns in Operation Save Big Dog's chess game. If Boris wants to keep Pincher, the compassionate line you advocate will be taken, but if CCHQ's Australian gurus, angry backbenchers or Carrie make it clear Pincher must go, we will have a new betting opportunity.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,741
    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    How is there going to be a by-election? Surely that would require "Cock" Pincher to resign and he doesn't seem like the resigning type.

    BoZo can put him in the Lords instead
    Baron Pincher of Drunken Bottom (South Oxfordshire)

    https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/local/drunken-bottom-south-oxfordshire
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,286
    Talking about flawed human beings the trial I am doing at the moment is before Judge Hughes who had to take a morning off to deal with former SNP MP Natalie McGarry.

    I was told (not by him obviously) that her trial took far longer than it should because she was wanting to speak about her views on how women are treated in politics and her views on Scottish independence. I understand from some involved in the trial, and indeed her previous trial, that she was pretty annoying, very much of the we are doing the right thing, who are you to question us, school.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179
    ydoethur said:

    And my reply to his Venerable Cheerful Majesty was:

    ydoethur said:

    theakes said:

    By Election at Tamworth? Cons will hold, also do not think there will be a Lib Dem quiet campaign for Labour.

    Labour have held it before, not that long ago.

    And Pincher has been a very bad MP, and is not personally popular. Easy to imagine a better candidate might get a boost (if they can find one, but I happen to know one is available).

    But the real significance of Tamworth is the electorate it represents. The not affluent but property owning, solid, manufacturing based, perhaps slightly unambitious but very dependable backbone of middle England. The Tories' safe heartland.

    If the Tories were to lose it, they would have lost in the Red Wall (Wakefield) the commuter belt (Chesham) the rural blue wall (Tiverton and Oswestry) and the skilled working areas (Tamworth). At this point, you would begin to wonder what seats they *could* rely on.
    Without wishing to go all Epping, Chris Pincher has increased his vote-share at all of the
    recent elections I don't know Tamworth; I've only ever been there once, but it did seem the sort of seat that the modern Conservatives ought to hold!
    They've increased their vote share in I think every seat in Staffordshire in that time. That isn't unique to Tamworth.

    I entirely agree they should hold it, if only because there's no real tradition of Liberal Democrat strength (unlike Lichfield) and Labour are more or less moribund. I was thinking more about the implications if they were to lose it.

    But then, they should have held North Shropshire and didn't, and there wasn't a strong Lib Dem tradition there either.
    You know the area much better than I, so I expect you are right.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755

    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    How is there going to be a by-election? Surely that would require "Cock" Pincher to resign and he doesn't seem like the resigning type.

    BoZo can put him in the Lords instead
    Baron Pincher of Drunken Bottom (South Oxfordshire)

    https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/local/drunken-bottom-south-oxfordshire
    Well, he's as drunk as a lord, but surely Pett Bottom would be more - apt?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pett_Bottom
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    Scott_xP said:

    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. ... The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    Why would that help?

    Assault is assault, wherever it happens, surely?
    If it happened on the Parliamentary estate then there would be a greater chance of him receiving a suspension from the Commons as punishment, triggering the recall petition if the suspension was long enough. It's the factor that did for tractor porn guy.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,250
    Covid is a funny old bug. Day three of testing positive and each day I have developed new symptoms, presumably as it works it's way through my system. The only persistent symptom I have had is the headache.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755

    ydoethur said:

    And my reply to his Venerable Cheerful Majesty was:

    ydoethur said:

    theakes said:

    By Election at Tamworth? Cons will hold, also do not think there will be a Lib Dem quiet campaign for Labour.

    Labour have held it before, not that long ago.

    And Pincher has been a very bad MP, and is not personally popular. Easy to imagine a better candidate might get a boost (if they can find one, but I happen to know one is available).

    But the real significance of Tamworth is the electorate it represents. The not affluent but property owning, solid, manufacturing based, perhaps slightly unambitious but very dependable backbone of middle England. The Tories' safe heartland.

    If the Tories were to lose it, they would have lost in the Red Wall (Wakefield) the commuter belt (Chesham) the rural blue wall (Tiverton and Oswestry) and the skilled working areas (Tamworth). At this point, you would begin to wonder what seats they *could* rely on.
    Without wishing to go all Epping, Chris Pincher has increased his vote-share at all of the
    recent elections I don't know Tamworth; I've only ever been there once, but it did seem the sort of seat that the modern Conservatives ought to hold!
    They've increased their vote share in I think every seat in Staffordshire in that time. That isn't unique to Tamworth.

    I entirely agree they should hold it, if only because there's no real tradition of Liberal Democrat strength (unlike Lichfield) and Labour are more or less moribund. I was thinking more about the implications if they were to lose it.

    But then, they should have held North Shropshire and didn't, and there wasn't a strong Lib Dem tradition there either.
    You know the area much better than I, so I expect you are right.
    Just because I know it well doesn't make me right! If the last few months have shown anything it's that we can't rely on old style understandings of politics.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    With Chris Pincher MP on the way out, how long before the spotlight falls on Sir Richard Fiddler MP and Roger Rogerson QC MP?

    I find there is actually an Aussie radio called Richard Fidler.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Fidler

    What were his parents thinking?
    I knew a Richard Edwards at school (he wore it well, he had no choice) and a friends uncle was Michael Hunt. Again, what were the parents thinking?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,286
    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,008

    Scott_xP said:

    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. ... The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    Why would that help?

    Assault is assault, wherever it happens, surely?
    If it happened on the Parliamentary estate then there would be a greater chance of him receiving a suspension from the Commons as punishment, triggering the recall petition if the suspension was long enough. It's the factor that did for tractor porn guy.
    Was it not rather that that particular part of the Estate was the green benches of the HoC in front of female colleagues?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,880
    So the older men on here think this is all just a bit of drunken bants. Females, including tory MPs beg to differ.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542829182719229952

    It's pretty staggering that someone like DavidL still needs to be educated on an issue like this.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    edited July 2

    I’ve been saying for a while on here that the Midlands is now the Tory heartland. Outside of the big cities and a few university towns like Leamington and Warwick, Labour remains deeply toxic and will do so for a while yet. That makes Tamworth a guaranteed Tory hold. The interesting bit would be the size of the majority.

    In the event of a byelection party positioning would be difficult for them and fun for us.

    Obvs the Tories must win it: do the maths; Midlands; Peel. (But list too long to adumbrate renders them unelectable)
    Obvs Labour must win it: they held it till 2010 and are the only challenger, (But boundary changes and Labour not v good at byelections ATM)
    Obvs LD must win it: they come from third to win in NS, and T and H. That's what they are good at. (But vote share closer to zero than 11%)

    On the face of it all of them will win it, and all of them will lose it.
    What larks. And perhaps betting opportunities.

    Expect a good deal of expectation management "LDs losing here" etc.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786
    Jeez. I thought the All Blacks had finally produced a poor team

    😮
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,191

    if CCHQ's Australian gurus, angry backbenchers or Carrie make it clear Pincher must go, we will have a new betting opportunity.

    Interesting quote in the Polhome article upthread.

    He apparently asked Tory MPs who they wanted to appear in their constituency to bolster their vote during an election campaign, and their answer was still BoZo.

    Really?

    The man who was booed at the jubilee? They want him standing next to them in a campign? Maybe while they hide in a fridge...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755
    edited July 2
    algarkirk said:

    I’ve been saying for a while on here that the Midlands is now the Tory heartland. Outside of the big cities and a few university towns like Leamington and Warwick, Labour remains deeply toxic and will do so for a while yet. That makes Tamworth a guaranteed Tory hold. The interesting bit would be the size of the majority.

    In the event of a byelection party positioning would be difficult for them and fun for us.

    Obvs the Tories must win it: do the maths; Midlands; Peel. (But list too long to adumbrate renders them unelectable)
    Obvs Labour must win it: they held it till 2010 and are the only challenger, (But boundary changes and Labour not v good at byelections ATM)
    Obvs LD must win it: they come from third to win in NS, and T and H. That's what they are good at. (But vote share closer to zero than 11%)

    On the face of it all of them will win it, and all of them will lose it.
    What larks. And perhaps betting opportunities.



    One advantage of Tamworth over Oswestry for any party in a by-election is it has excellent transport links. You can be pretty much anywhere in England from Tamworth in four hours. It's at the junction (near enough) of the M42 and M6Toll, and it's where the cross country line crosses the WCML in the biggest interchange between Rugby and Stafford.

    Easy to get activists there. And once they're there, it's a helpfully compact seat.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616
    Leon said:

    Jeez. I thought the All Blacks had finally produced a poor team

    😮

    It’s not the greatest NZ side, but at Eden Park, and with the potent ability to sniff out quarter chances and convert into tries, you have to be absolutely on it at all times. The Irish have been too lose in possession and it’s cost them. They are a long way from the Aviva fortress.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Revenge. Kiwis do not take losing well, and three out of five defeats against the Irish has hurt them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    edited July 2
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. ... The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    Why would that help?

    Assault is assault, wherever it happens, surely?
    If it happened on the Parliamentary estate then there would be a greater chance of him receiving a suspension from the Commons as punishment, triggering the recall petition if the suspension was long enough. It's the factor that did for tractor porn guy.
    Was it not rather that that particular part of the Estate was the green benches of the HoC in front of female colleagues?
    My feeling is that if it had been in from of the same people, but on a train, that it would have been less damaging than it was in Parliament. The not owning up to it straight away, leading to speculation about the identity of tractor porn guy was also damaging - Pincher at least didn't make that mistake.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598
    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,905
    What about Somerton and Frome? Isn't that the most likely next by election?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,162
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    I suspect there is more to it than that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755
    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786

    Leon said:

    Jeez. I thought the All Blacks had finally produced a poor team

    😮

    It’s not the greatest NZ side, but at Eden Park, and with the potent ability to sniff out quarter chances and convert into tries, you have to be absolutely on it at all times. The Irish have been too lose in possession and it’s cost them. They are a long way from the Aviva fortress.
    Agreed

    Thoughts on England? I fear they are fragile
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    DavidL said:

    Talking about flawed human beings the trial I am doing at the moment is before Judge Hughes who had to take a morning off to deal with former SNP MP Natalie McGarry.

    I was told (not by him obviously) that her trial took far longer than it should because she was wanting to speak about her views on how women are treated in politics and her views on Scottish independence. I understand from some involved in the trial, and indeed her previous trial, that she was pretty annoying, very much of the we are doing the right thing, who are you to question us, school.

    Amateurs when put against England's finest:


    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/lord-judge-signs-off-with-attack-on-ambush-advocate/5037941.article


    The entire judgement is a gem.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,286
    Heathener said:

    So the older men on here think this is all just a bit of drunken bants. Females, including tory MPs beg to differ.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542829182719229952

    It's pretty staggering that someone like DavidL still needs to be educated on an issue like this.

    I completely agree with that letter. The inconsistency with which these episodes are treated is a part of the problem as is the truly remarkable lack of clear rules of conduct (other than common sense and decency, of course). I also agree that this is damaging the government.

    I am not suggesting that it gets swept under any carpet but I am suggesting that the offender should be treated compassionately if there are explanations for his behaviour. Is that so awful?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,008

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There are two aspects which should help Pincher. ... The event didn't happen on the Parliamentary estate.

    Why would that help?

    Assault is assault, wherever it happens, surely?
    If it happened on the Parliamentary estate then there would be a greater chance of him receiving a suspension from the Commons as punishment, triggering the recall petition if the suspension was long enough. It's the factor that did for tractor porn guy.
    Was it not rather that that particular part of the Estate was the green benches of the HoC in front of female colleagues?
    My feeling is that if it had been in from of the same people, but on a train, that it would have been less damaging than it was in Parliament. The not opening up to it straight away, leading to speculation about the identity of tractor porn guy was also damaging - Pincher at least didn't make that mistake.
    Point 1: interesting, but not valid, surely. A fully public site has its own sensitivities - children could have been present, for instance - compared to a work site.

    Point 2: That is true. But that is from the purely selfish point of view of your average Tory MP, already under suspicion of having a non-trivial chance of being a sex pest.

    Also: if there were earlier events, then where were they alleged to have happened? I haven't been following the details, though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,755
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile it's also unsurprising that Pincher got an easy ride from Boris Johnson. Anyone who thinks it's fine to grope and seduce women or get an F.O. staffer to give them a blowjob at the office is unlikely to understand what the words 'moral compass' even mean.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1542919039420358656

    https://twitter.com/notavocation/status/1542929931742617600

    Those words 'my current wife' are chilling.

    How on earth the tory party elected this wicked clown is amazing. That they didn't remove him from office last month even more so.

    Sadly, it isn't amazing, just depressing.

    It isn't amazing because far too many of them are just as bad as he is, and it's depressing...for exactly the same reason, actually.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,043
    edited July 2
    On the Wakefield swing even if there was a by election in Tamworth the Tories would hold it from Labour
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,043
    Scott_xP said:

    New YouGov MRP: Tories set to lose 26 of their 64 their Con-Lib Dem battleground seats, including Dominic Raab and Jeremy Hunt's constituencies

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/07/02/conservatives-set-lose-26-their-64-lib-dem-battleg https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1543133517957275649/photo/1

    Plus Labour set to gain Kensington and Cities of London and Westminster
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,741
    HYUFD said:

    On the Wakefield swing even if there was a by election in Wakefield the Tories would hold it

    That's a speedy recovery..
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jeez. I thought the All Blacks had finally produced a poor team

    😮

    It’s not the greatest NZ side, but at Eden Park, and with the potent ability to sniff out quarter chances and convert into tries, you have to be absolutely on it at all times. The Irish have been too lose in possession and it’s cost them. They are a long way from the Aviva fortress.
    Agreed

    Thoughts on England? I fear they are fragile
    Not sure, but marginally think Aussie by 7 today. The squad and Jones seem to be in an odd place with regard to who is in charge, pace the recent stuff about intensity in training. I know we have had the wood on Australia for a while now, but we’ve been shit since 2019 in the games that matter.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,905
    edited July 2

    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    I suspect there is more to it than that.
    Yes. I was actually of @DavidL view, but it does now appear that there is more of a history to this stuff.

    PS @DavidL I find that I struggle to find any difference between our views on just about anything, yet we have supported different parties most of the time. I wonder why?. My only thought is, is it the underlying philosophy of the parties we support rather than the desired end result.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,286
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking about flawed human beings the trial I am doing at the moment is before Judge Hughes who had to take a morning off to deal with former SNP MP Natalie McGarry.

    I was told (not by him obviously) that her trial took far longer than it should because she was wanting to speak about her views on how women are treated in politics and her views on Scottish independence. I understand from some involved in the trial, and indeed her previous trial, that she was pretty annoying, very much of the we are doing the right thing, who are you to question us, school.

    Amateurs when put against England's finest:


    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/lord-judge-signs-off-with-attack-on-ambush-advocate/5037941.article


    The entire judgement is a gem.
    Wow, I'd not heard of that, thanks.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,191
    Over the next few hours and days were going to get a lot of deflection from Boris and his supporters. It's important to stay focused on a simple fact. He claimed he didn't know about Pincher. He did know about Pincher. And he appointed him anyway.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1543144352330964992
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598
    edited July 2
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    DavidL said:

    Heathener said:

    So the older men on here think this is all just a bit of drunken bants. Females, including tory MPs beg to differ.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542829182719229952

    It's pretty staggering that someone like DavidL still needs to be educated on an issue like this.

    I completely agree with that letter. The inconsistency with which these episodes are treated is a part of the problem as is the truly remarkable lack of clear rules of conduct (other than common sense and decency, of course). I also agree that this is damaging the government.

    I am not suggesting that it gets swept under any carpet but I am suggesting that the offender should be treated compassionately if there are explanations for his behaviour. Is that so awful?
    I think the suggestion being made is that this person has been treated compassionately on prior occasions and failed to reform their behaviour. That would indicate a need for more robust action now. However, like you, I have not gone into all the sordid detail on this.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    If your are over 20 stone you get a double vote under the Fat Person's Voting Act, and can vote from the sofa while eating double portions of fish and chips which explains the voting trend in Tamworth in recent decades.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    FWIW, I get the impression from the reporting that he’s quite possibly a serial offender.
    A proper investigation rather that quietly brushing it under the carpet seems essential. I take your point about compassion, but that surely should not extend to ignoring possible criminal offences of this nature ?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 2,931
    A funny old place, Tamworth. I know it well. Lots of history and beautiful castle grounds. An old, well kept town centre, good leisure facilities and the large Ventura retail park. A similar size to Lichfield, but much more working class. An extraordinarily high proportion of obese people, with the high street crawling with mobility scooters. No Lib Dem tradition at all, but I'd have thought that Labour might stand a chance of taking it back.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598
    edited July 2
    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    edited July 2
    DavidL said:

    Heathener said:

    So the older men on here think this is all just a bit of drunken bants. Females, including tory MPs beg to differ.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542829182719229952

    It's pretty staggering that someone like DavidL still needs to be educated on an issue like this.

    I completely agree with that letter. The inconsistency with which these episodes are treated is a part of the problem as is the truly remarkable lack of clear rules of conduct (other than common sense and decency, of course). I also agree that this is damaging the government.

    I am not suggesting that it gets swept under any carpet but I am suggesting that the offender should be treated compassionately if there are explanations for his behaviour. Is that so awful?
    Yes. He's a man. So obviously he doesn't deserve compassion. How can you even ask, you sexist gammon(?)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,854
    Scott_xP said:

    Over the next few hours and days were going to get a lot of deflection from Boris and his supporters. It's important to stay focused on a simple fact. He claimed he didn't know about Pincher. He did know about Pincher. And he appointed him anyway.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1543144352330964992

    And?

    Neither "Johnson appoints terrible people" nor "Johnson tells fibs" is news, is it?

    Or has Dan Hodges only just noticed?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking about flawed human beings the trial I am doing at the moment is before Judge Hughes who had to take a morning off to deal with former SNP MP Natalie McGarry.

    I was told (not by him obviously) that her trial took far longer than it should because she was wanting to speak about her views on how women are treated in politics and her views on Scottish independence. I understand from some involved in the trial, and indeed her previous trial, that she was pretty annoying, very much of the we are doing the right thing, who are you to question us, school.

    Amateurs when put against England's finest:


    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/lord-judge-signs-off-with-attack-on-ambush-advocate/5037941.article


    The entire judgement is a gem.
    Wow, I'd not heard of that, thanks.
    SFAICS the judgement has vanished from BAILII (I may be wrong) but can be found I think in full here:

    https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff71c60d03e7f57ea7af5

    Henriques will dine out on it for his entire retirement.



  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,569
    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    They used to say that in many parts of the Red Wall round me.

    I agree with you no longer the case
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,174
    I am something of a philistine as I’d never heard of this guy, but I’m now tempted to acquire a copy of his 4000 page Oxford History of Western Music.

    Richard Taruskin, Vigorously Polemical Musicologist, Dies at 77
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/arts/music/richard-taruskin-dead.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,043
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Fabricant is one of the most colourful MPs and has a big personal vote in Lichfield too
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,156
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Fabricant is one of the most colourful MPs and has a big personal vote in Lichfield too
    By "colourful", you mean he's a bit of a twat?
    I want entertainers to be colourful. I prefer MPs to be competent, honest and decent.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Fabricant is one of the most colourful MPs and has a big personal vote in Lichfield too
    Like I say, he’s a puzzle. If he hadn’t made it to Westminster, he would have been the town character collecting trolleys in the car park.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,156

    Scott_xP said:

    Over the next few hours and days were going to get a lot of deflection from Boris and his supporters. It's important to stay focused on a simple fact. He claimed he didn't know about Pincher. He did know about Pincher. And he appointed him anyway.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1543144352330964992

    And?

    Neither "Johnson appoints terrible people" nor "Johnson tells fibs" is news, is it?

    Or has Dan Hodges only just noticed?
    I suppose one should make an effort to stay shocked.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
    That's the point. Voters really are the last resort. Not parties, not candidate selectors. In democracy 'voters' is the answer to the question of who guards the guards.



    "After the uprising of the 17th of June
    The Secretary of the Writers' Union
    Had leaflets distributed on the Stalinallee
    Stating that the people
    Had forfeited the confidence of the government
    And could only win it back
    By increased work quotas. Would it not in that case be simpler
    for the government
    To dissolve the people
    And elect another?"

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,156
    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
    A little less independent thought from Fabricant would be welcome imo.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,162
    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
    Didn't you stand to me an MP once?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    A majority of seats are completely safe even with the changes over the last 4 elections.

    Regardless, changes (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be the point. More that individual merits are irrelevant and changes will or wont happen pretty much purely due to party label.

    Can't really see a solution. Its damn near impossible to assess whether they dova good job and most won't be well known.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,598

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
    Didn't you stand to me an MP once?
    I did indeed. Learned a lot. It’s a weird experience. Great fun, but you do meet some interesting people.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    To think that 'omov' democracy has, or should have, outcomes that that are narrowly pre-described by PBers is a failure of reason.

    That PBers are a self selected group who are automatically going to think that voters are a bit dim (they are) is more or less what Kant would call an a priori synthetic truth but it doesn't change what democracy is for or which group of people (all voters) are ultimately accountable.

    All alternatives, without exception, build in authoritarianism of some sort.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,611
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=because reasons
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    https://www.waterstones.com/book/because-internet/gretchen-mcculloch/9781529112825
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,616
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    https://www.waterstones.com/book/because-internet/gretchen-mcculloch/9781529112825
    Nothing wrong with language changing and evolving. If it didn’t there would be no point scholars learning medieval language.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Over the next few hours and days were going to get a lot of deflection from Boris and his supporters. It's important to stay focused on a simple fact. He claimed he didn't know about Pincher. He did know about Pincher. And he appointed him anyway.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1543144352330964992

    And?

    Neither "Johnson appoints terrible people" nor "Johnson tells fibs" is news, is it?

    Or has Dan Hodges only just noticed?
    I suppose one should make an effort to stay shocked.
    Genuinely important. High standards cannot always be maintained in politics as in life, but it doesn't mean we should just ignore them completely.

    Politics might be inevivitably a bit grubby, as the saying goes, but it is not required that you cover yourself in shit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,407
    Did Putin really respond to a comment about him not starting a war if he was a woman by pointing to Thatcher and the Falklands? I suppose he would see someone responding to an invasion as 'starting' it, come to think of it.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,233
    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    A majority of seats are completely safe even with the changes over the last 4 elections.

    Regardless, changes (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be the point. More that individual merits are irrelevant and changes will or wont happen pretty much purely due to party label.

    Can't really see a solution. Its damn near impossible to assess whether they dova good job and most won't be well known.
    It used to be said that in North West Durham a donkey with a red rosette would get elected. However, sticking one on Laura Pidcock was just a step too far.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,520
    edited July 2
    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    A majority of seats are completely safe even with the changes over the last 4 elections.

    Regardless, changes (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be the point. More that individual merits are irrelevant and changes will or wont happen pretty much purely due to party label.

    Can't really see a solution. Its damn near impossible to assess whether they dova good job and most won't be well known.
    STV, or an open-list PR system, gives the power to the voter to vote on a party basis and between candidates for each party. It would make it a lot harder for MPs like Pincher to hang on as they would be competing for votes against other Conservatives, not just candidates from other parties.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,162
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.

    It seems that the ideal MP candidate is ambitious, but flawed and controllable. Articulate, but incapable of independent thought.

    As a result, you end up with some genuinely odd people.
    Didn't you stand to me an MP once?
    I did indeed. Learned a lot. It’s a weird experience. Great fun, but you do meet some interesting people.
    I could have gone down that road. Even had a couple of Tory MPs implore me to apply for the list.

    Glad I didn't.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,281
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    It is deeply annoying. I’ll add it to the list.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    How was Kennedy treated that he should not have been? I can't see that a drunk in public office is anything other than fair game. It's fine to be as compassionate as fuck once they have stood down to sort themselves out.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,028
    edited July 2
    DavidL said:

    I've really not troubled myself about getting the sordid details of this but the impression from afar is that this is someone who has got drunk and made a bit of a tit of himself. Which is, of course, not a good thing. I also get the impression, based on his apparent history, that he might have a bit of a drink problem too. Which is not a good thing either but perhaps needs a bit of compassion, especially after the way that Kennedy was treated.

    My guess is that there will be regrets, a brief suspension, some treatment/therapy and back into the fold once more. Even politicians are human beings, after all.

    No.

    He's a Tory so it's an existential threat to the continued existence of democratic civilisation :smile: . Or at least that's what Angela Rayner says. Ish.

    No problem with an investigation, but if there is sanctimonious crapulating from places where a similar suspension has not been applied, then fingers should be pointed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179

    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    A majority of seats are completely safe even with the changes over the last 4 elections.

    Regardless, changes (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be the point. More that individual merits are irrelevant and changes will or wont happen pretty much purely due to party label.

    Can't really see a solution. Its damn near impossible to assess whether they dova good job and most won't be well known.
    STV, or an open-list PR system, gives the power to the voter to vote on a party basis and between candidates for each party. It would make it a lot harder for MPs like Pincher to hang on as they would be competing for votes against other Conservatives, not just candidates from other parties.
    Pincher's, or the Tory, vote has gone up steadily at the last few elections in Tamworth. Is that the 'Midlands thing' or is there a personal element?

    On the Guardian's point about obesity is there a correlation between levels of obesity in the population and the Conservative vote? I don't see a lot of obese people in Witham!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,281

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jeez. I thought the All Blacks had finally produced a poor team

    😮

    It’s not the greatest NZ side, but at Eden Park, and with the potent ability to sniff out quarter chances and convert into tries, you have to be absolutely on it at all times. The Irish have been too lose in possession and it’s cost them. They are a long way from the Aviva fortress.
    Agreed

    Thoughts on England? I fear they are fragile
    Not sure, but marginally think Aussie by 7 today. The squad and Jones seem to be in an odd place with regard to who is in charge, pace the recent stuff about intensity in training. I know we have had the wood on Australia for a while now, but we’ve been shit since 2019 in the games that matter.
    It’s a quasi-friendly so we’ll probably squeeze past Australia under the tedious, odious Jones.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,148
    Heathener said:

    So the older men on here think this is all just a bit of drunken bants. Females, including tory MPs beg to differ.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1542829182719229952

    It's pretty staggering that someone like DavidL still needs to be educated on an issue like this.

    Reposting this. As relevant now, more so, in fact, as it was then.

    Enjoy!

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/11/06/the-pb-cynics-dictionary-especially-complied-for-the-times/
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,905
    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    I give you David Tredinnick who only stood down in 2019 and who held his seat from 1987 and in the last 20 years kept increasing his majority (so the period you talk of). Yet he was as mad as a box of frogs and in fairness that is libeling the box of frogs.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575
    kle4 said:

    Applicant said:

    Jonathan said:

    algarkirk said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    If there is a by-election, is there a man in the white suit option?

    Michael Fabricant in the neighbouring constituency should be in a straitjacket.

    Oh, sorry, is that not what you meant?
    Fabricant is an enigma, a barometer for a broken parliamentary system.

    How he became.and remains and MP is a mystery. You would have thought someone along the way, be they a Tory selector or a voter would have said hang on, this is not necessarily the best person to represent us.

    (There are others like this, but he stands out as a big Why?)
    Only voters can sort these things.

    But they don’t. When it comes to a general election, if you pin a rosette to a turd only the colour of the rosette matters. It’s a fundamentally broken system.
    It amazes me that people can have seen the changes at general elections over the last decade and still think this way.

    A majority of seats are completely safe even with the changes over the last 4 elections.

    Regardless, changes (or lack thereof) didn't seem to be the point. More that individual merits are irrelevant and changes will or wont happen pretty much purely due to party label.

    Can't really see a solution. Its damn near impossible to assess whether they dova good job and most won't be well known.
    There isn't a solution because there isn't a problem. If your problem is about how voters vote in an 'omov' free society, that's not a problem, it's an opinion.

    You can't resolve problems in democracy by anything other than the instruments of democracy; campaigning, persuading, standing for election, party organisation, voting.

    All other solutions are basically imposing opinions in an authoritarian manner.

    When it comes to 'safe seats', most people's thinking is backwards. They look at the current maths and declare this seat is 'safe'. All that means is that voters as a whole have acted a certain way. They are entitled to. It is in their power. Unless it binds their future decisions in a way which forces them they remain free next time to do as they will.

    Tamworth is a safe Tory seat. But it was Labour only recently.

  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,230
    If we’re going to do the “but the mens” argument, it’s worth pointing out that he is accused of groping three men in two incidents while pissed out of his skull. To say “the matter is closed” because he resigned his sinecure and apologised for being drunk is disrespectful of the potential victims.

    The principle has been set with Parish et Al: withdraw the whip, conduct the investigation, return the whip or crack it depending on the outcome. Trying to brush it aside because this guy is one of your pals is boorish nepotism. Tractor Man has a right to be cross.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,575

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    It is deeply annoying. I’ll add it to the list.
    "Train station" replacing "station".

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,786

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Oh dear, Ireland

    Still haven't found the plug?
    Could be messy 2nd half. They’ve waited for this match a long time.
    For revenge you mean? Or because Covid?
    Genuine and extremely important question - is this a PB thing, dropping the "of" after "because"?

    I see it quite a lot on here but rarely anywhere else.
    It is deeply annoying. I’ll add it to the list.
    Rage, rage, against the dying of the light…
This discussion has been closed.