Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
Please, enough already.
Keeping (relatively) quiet about my views on this is causing me untold mental anguish. Ask not what your country can do for you....
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
That's a pretty low bar, but it will give Cameron's successor (assuming he is still around by 2015) something positive to focus on amid the infighting I guess
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Correct. If the result is 52/48 No, that's an extremely good outcome for Scottish nationalism.
It's not a win, but it forces us to thoroughly reconsider how the UK is governed.
Oh what the heck...I'm going to predict that the actual result will be No winning by a comfortable 10%.
Even 55/45 requires us to reconsider. 45% voting to leave a successful State in peacetime is an awful lot.
While I doubt it will be that large a win if somehow No does manage to succeed, you are quite correct. I've never really thought about a FederalUK until this year, but something in that vein seems the only possible solution to keeping the Union together in the long term, and even that not guaranteed.
Without the intermediate poll YouGov would be applying company showing a 14 point lead evaporation onto a 4 post lead inside a month, with last weekends poll they are now saviors of the union. The hubridsin here is palpable.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
Perhaps you'd like to merge the Churches of England and Scotland and English and Scottish law as well plus the English and Scottish educational systems and dozens of other things.
That might have been a good idea in the 18th century but its not going to happen now.
So in other words your rebuttal of the Union not being dead is rather wrongheaded.
Though I dare say there would be many Scots amused to see Glasgow Rangers having to play in the Conference North.
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
Of the seats that would go Tory if the results go as last Baxtered the longest shot is Edinburgh South at 66/1. A very long shot, but there are a lot of financial sector workers who are suddenly converted to the cause of Unionism...
That always struck me as a rather anti-Thatcherite show - oppressed Liverpudlians forced to fiddle their welfare payments to survive etc. Though I do remember some anti-Islamic jokes ('Shiite Muslim' repeatedly mispronounced) that the BBC would never countenance today.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
BTW I'd pass your idea onto the Spanish government if I was you.
All they have to do is get Real Madrid and Barcelona to play in the same League and Catalan nationalism will doubtless die.
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Indeed
It seems commonplace on here to consider steady progress from those they disagree with as failure
That's a good point that's not made often enough on here.
Thankfully I am not the only one that thinks Scotland being split down the middle a week out is cause for worry. I think No will edge it but this isn't going away. Also men decisively in favour so there is a gender split too.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
If either side wins by less than 10% they should hold another referendum every five years until someone does
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
Perhaps you'd like to merge the Churches of England and Scotland and English and Scottish law as well plus the English and Scottish educational systems and dozens of other things.
That might have been a good idea in the 18th century but its not going to happen now.
So in other words your rebuttal of the Union not being dead is rather wrongheaded.
Though I dare say there would be many Scots amused to see Glasgow Rangers having to play in the Conference North.
If Rangers ever play in the premier league, it would be the end of the SNP. And that's the point, the greater the number of bonds between scotland and england the more difficult it is for the SNP's existence.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
Perhaps you'd like to merge the Churches of England and Scotland and English and Scottish law as well plus the English and Scottish educational systems and dozens of other things.
That might have been a good idea in the 18th century but its not going to happen now.
So in other words your rebuttal of the Union not being dead is rather wrongheaded.
Though I dare say there would be many Scots amused to see Glasgow Rangers having to play in the Conference North.
If Rangers ever play in the premier league, it would be the end of the SNP (and that's the point).
But if Rangers got relegated to the Championship, as is more than likely...
The 'fall' is only from a previous 'up' so the rather sad (although perhaps sarcastic) use of 'scare' is hardly apt.
Someone on the previous thread said ... 'I am surprised Better Together have not highlighted the division, bitterness and emnity sown in Scottish society by the SNP ...' Fortunately this is because the 'better together' crowd are in fact being much more circumspect then the Nats. Too circumspect I agree. Its pretty weak of the Nats to respond to facts with the venom they do.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
Perhaps you'd like to merge the Churches of England and Scotland and English and Scottish law as well plus the English and Scottish educational systems and dozens of other things.
That might have been a good idea in the 18th century but its not going to happen now.
So in other words your rebuttal of the Union not being dead is rather wrongheaded.
Though I dare say there would be many Scots amused to see Glasgow Rangers having to play in the Conference North.
If Rangers ever play in the premier league, it would be the end of the SNP (and that's the point).
But if Rangers got relegated to the Championship, as is more than likely...
@BBCNewsnight: .@TogetherDarling "When I find people who are frightened... to put posters up - I don't think people want to live like that." #newsnight
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Indeed
It seems commonplace on here to consider steady progress from those they disagree with as failure
That's a good point that's not made often enough on here.
Thankfully I am not the only one that thinks Scotland being split down the middle a week out is cause for worry. I think No will edge it but this isn't going away. Also men decisively in favour so there is a gender split too.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
If either side wins by less than 10% they should hold another referendum every five years until someone does
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
It's worth thinking about. If No wins 52-48, in line with this poll, just under half the adults in the country will have been denied independence. How is a country even manageable in that state?
That always struck me as a rather anti-Thatcherite show - oppressed Liverpudlians forced to fiddle their welfare payments to survive etc. Though I do remember some anti-Islamic jokes ('Shiite Muslim' repeatedly mispronounced) that the BBC would never countenance today.
Those jokes wouldn't be allowed on here... But some that are disgustingly crude and in the worst taste seem to be ok
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Indeed
It seems commonplace on here to consider steady progress from those they disagree with as failure
That's a good point that's not made often enough on here.
Thankfully I am not the only one that thinks Scotland being split down the middle a week out is cause for worry. I think No will edge it but this isn't going away. Also men decisively in favour so there is a gender split too.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
If either side wins by less than 10% they should hold another referendum every five years until someone does
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
It's worth thinking about. If No wins 52-48, in line with this poll, just under half the adults in the country will have been denied independence. How is a country even manageable in that state?
It would lead to a divided Scotland in my opinion, and with no hope of change, aggro will follow
If Rangers ever play in the premier league, it would be the end of the SNP. And that's the point, the greater the number of bonds between scotland and england the more difficult it is for the SNP's existence.
Oh God, we're not going to re-run PB's greatest numbnuts Scottish hits are we?
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
I never said it was on here. It is not projecting when a single poll in the lead (and one very close) is taken as evidence by the Yes campaign of the absolute proof that the momentum is with them and that No are fighting a desperate and pathetic last stand. (all please read the next paragraph rather than stopping here) (and yes I am paraphrasing, give me a break)
I remind you I think they do have the momentum and that I think they will win, but I do not see how it is controversial to state that using that one poll as a basis to make such grandiose claims about momentum was and is silly of me and Yes, just as it was silly of No (and me) to lose their heads over it and any other subsequent single poll.
I honestly don't know what this objection to stating both sides get overexcited is about sometimes, all sides seem to have trouble accepting they and their opponents overreact to things sometimes. They have good reasons to overreact to every little thing, every little person or business that backs their own particular argument, this is an emotional fight, so why this conceit sometimes that when X crows about the inevitability of their victory on the basis of some single poll or event it is just natural cheer, but when Y does it, their are hysterical, as if it is not the same thing.
All very encouraging. Just completed a very satisfactory evening canvass in Moray. Truth be told, always going to be a good No area but it always nice to have people practically falling on you with gratitude for knocking on their door. The Yessers have the posters. We have the voters.
(In all seriousness, we will be fighting this right to the finish. No complacency. Salmond remains a dangerous and formidable politician. But I reckon the No voters are seriously motivated.)
I might have to change my prediction for Moray, which I had down as a narrow Yes based on it being an SNP seat since 1987 (among other factors).
So did Romney. But like Yes, Romney was consistently under 50% and that was enough. Yes have ONE poll. Just one.
That is true. Whatever, if it's tight it's going to be a dreadful mess afterwards. As others have said, we might have to federalise the UK simply to keep the Union together.
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
Does Stuart Dickson spamming the board with the words 'tipping point' count?
Lib Dems hold Abingdon Dunmore with a big swing from Con to LD
LD 745 Con 501 UKIP 90 Lab 87
That was the ward where I used to live! Perhaps we shouldn't count on Nicola Blackwood being a dead certainty to retain Oxwab next May. Can't say I would miss her as she is one of the Tories most on board with the whole AGW nonsense - whether that's her personal opinion or kow-towing to the Green elements in the Oxford part of the seat is hard to say, but I wouldn't miss her were she to lose at the GE.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
When a majority of people feel as you do (and it is at the very least close to that in Scotland, that is true), then the Union will indeed have no purpose, but that is hopefully not the case.
Its clear that a majority of people in Scotland do feel separate from England.
Whether enough of those can be scared into voting NO is all that remains to be seen.
But even if they are (and I expect a NO vote) they're not going to start feeling 'British' again. What is much more likely is that all the future problems Scotland faces will be blamed on the Union.
@bbcnickrobinson: To all tweeting about me saying that @AlexSalmond did not answer me : He DID answer re RBS but did NOT re why trust him not company bosses
@IAG80: @bbcnickrobinson@AlexSalmond hang ur head in shame. That was shocking & sickening "reporting". Simply disgusting. You'll get what's coming.
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
Of the seats that would go Tory if the results go as last Baxtered the longest shot is Edinburgh South at 66/1. A very long shot, but there are a lot of financial sector workers who are suddenly converted to the cause of Unionism...
Best bets for Tories: Berwickshire, West Aberdeenshire. I don't think Edinburgh South is feasible for the party.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
When a majority of people feel as you do (and it is at the very least close to that in Scotland, that is true), then the Union will indeed have no purpose, but that is hopefully not the case.
Its clear that a majority of people in Scotland do feel separate from England.
Whether enough of those can be scared into voting NO is all that remains to be seen.
But even if they are (and I expect a NO vote) they're not going to start feeling 'British' again. What is much more likely is that all the future problems Scotland faces will be blamed on the Union.
They may well not, hence why I said big changes will be required even in the event of a No vote in order to, hopefully, foster such a sense. I am pessimistic it will work - I think if it is a No win we will be back here again in not that many years and Yes will win that time, particularly as I imagine the English will be even more hostile to the Union than now - but it is the only thing I can see that might have a chance at success at least.
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
Does Stuart Dickson spamming the board with the words 'tipping point' count?
That would equate to about half an hour of Seant's bouncing needle.
Whilst all the bank moves and their bronze plates were the news, an interesting sector to mention are the Scottish based stockbrokers & DFMs - an english client with money invested with one of them has received a letter this week, saying the offices and people will move to England should independence happen.
I've not seen the letter but is that because the FCA/FSCS/FOS wouldn't cover the firm if it was in an independent Scotland? Genuine question and indeed one I need to find out damn quick for my client(s)....will try and get hold of the letter!!
Probably right - the key point I think is the FSCS - all EU countries have to have such a scheme for €100,000 however Scotland won't be in the EU come independence and won't have the resources to fund compensation claims should a major financial institution go down. So companies will have to move to the rUK so that rUK customers can be sure that their money is protected - otherwise they will switch to rUK companies (Witness the problems with Icelandic Banks).
As an insurance broker I would not be happy if my hard earned money was going to protect the citizens of a foreign country. In some respects not having the FCA would be a bonus (reducing costs) but that is not a real problem for customers (Many rUK residents insure their cars through companies based in Gibraltar) and the FOS only deals with complaints - but is a valuable aid in ensuring customers are treated fairly.
Lib Dems hold Abingdon Dunmore with a big swing from Con to LD
LD 745 Con 501 UKIP 90 Lab 87
That was the ward where I used to live! Perhaps we shouldn't count on Nicola Blackwood being a dead certainty to retain Oxwab next May. Can't say I would miss her as she is one of the Tories most on board with the whole AGW nonsense - whether that's her personal opinion or kow-towing to the Green elements in the Oxford part of the seat is hard to say, but I wouldn't miss her were she to lose at the GE.
Nicola Blackwood will win IMO, although the LD vote won't collapse like it will in most constituencies.
Without the intermediate poll YouGov would be applying company showing a 14 point lead evaporation onto a 4 post lead inside a month, with last weekends poll they are now saviors of the union. The hubridsin here is palpable.
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Indeed
It seems commonplace on here to consider steady progress from those they disagree with as failure
That's a good point that's not made often enough on here.
Thankfully I am not the only one that thinks Scotland being split down the middle a week out is cause for worry. I think No will edge it but this isn't going away. Also men decisively in favour so there is a gender split too.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
If either side wins by less than 10% they should hold another referendum every five years until someone does
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
It's worth thinking about. If No wins 52-48, in line with this poll, just under half the adults in the country will have been denied independence. How is a country even manageable in that state?
The Quebecois coped with a 51/49 vote against Quebec independence. And they are not known for their docility.
Well, 'coped' just about covers it, Sean, but I'm afraid the Quebec experience doesn't bode terribly well for what happens next in Scotland.
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Indeed
It seems commonplace on here to consider steady progress from those they disagree with as failure
That's a good point that's not made often enough on here.
Thankfully I am not the only one that thinks Scotland being split down the middle a week out is cause for worry. I think No will edge it but this isn't going away. Also men decisively in favour so there is a gender split too.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
If either side wins by less than 10% they should hold another referendum every five years until someone does
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
It's worth thinking about. If No wins 52-48, in line with this poll, just under half the adults in the country will have been denied independence. How is a country even manageable in that state?
The Quebecois coped with a 51/49 vote against Quebec independence. And they are not known for their docility.
Scotland is much more of a country than Quebec, arguably. Quebec has no representation on the international stage - the fact that Scotland fields its own sports teams may sound trivial but counts for a lot. It's an ever present appeal to patriotism, and an eternal reminder of its lack of statehood.
Weird, I see the most read story is "Scotland 'on cusp of making history' ". That Bread star is nowhere on the BBC top 10 read pieces.
However it is on No.13 most popular stories on the Clacton and Frinton gazette website.
Hmm and or oops... is there a most read table in the politics section of the BBC site then, it was definitely top of that table if so .... not quite the same as the whole beeb site!
Given how crazily happy Yes got, and how crazily despondent No got, on the strength of a single poll, I would find any Yes criticism of No's craziness at a newer poll being better news for them, more than a little silly. At least No seems to realize their own rapid mood swings on the strength of single polls is silly.
You appear to be doing a bit of projecting. What are your examples of crazily happy Yessers on here?
Does Stuart Dickson spamming the board with the words 'tipping point' count?
Yes supporters never overreact. They also never insult No supporters despite the intense provocation they receive from some on the No side, only No supporters insult. To suggest certain behaviours are found on both sides to some degree is just projection
If Rangers ever play in the premier league, it would be the end of the SNP. And that's the point, the greater the number of bonds between scotland and england the more difficult it is for the SNP's existence.
Oh God, we're not going to re-run PB's greatest numbnuts Scottish hits are we?
Well...yes. From here to the referendum day, it'll be one extreme to the other. I'm calling Sunday as a 'No is doomed' day, that'll be enough time for the latest more positive news for No to have dimmed.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
The Union is not dead. The only reasons of the SNP's existence is oil, scotish sports and scotish media. The oil will run out in 10 years and you only need a law to merge the premier league and the scottish league and to unify the scotish media with english media.
BTW I'd pass your idea onto the Spanish government if I was you.
All they have to do is get Real Madrid and Barcelona to play in the same League and Catalan nationalism will doubtless die.
Hmmm ....
Well this went completely unreported in our media today:
Separation, as I said a couple of nights ago, is on the rise everywhere across Europe. It is all inter-linked - people feeling a sense of helplessness over the lack of say in decisions in their lives, and wanting to bring that power closer to where they live. Its a perfectly natural urge against the mindless centralisation of power that Westminster and at a wider level the EU have foisted upon us over the past 30-40 years or so.
Tories saying nice things about Gordon Brown. Labour in Scotland praising the Tories on the NHS and Ulster Unionists decrying fences and borders. Ruth Davidson and George Galloway now the best of friends. The world is truly turned upside down.
Weird, I see the most read story is "Scotland 'on cusp of making history' ". That Bread star is nowhere on the BBC top 10 read pieces.
However it is on No.13 most popular stories on the Clacton and Frinton gazette website.
Hmm and or oops... is there a most read table in the politics section of the BBC site then, it was definitely top of that table if so .... not quite the same as the whole beeb site!
It's no.1 read for me as well, on the main news webpage.
Scots to me are FAMILY, part of the British FAMILY. We share a beautiful, rugged, scruffy, rain-lashed, gloriously storied island, and we share, in the main, a magnificent culture and a spectacular language. Making us foreigners, to each other, is insane.
Cutting this island in half so we can have different passports is NUTS.
Yes we differ. Yes they are probably a bit more left wing, up there, than us lot down here, but I am happy to be sometimes governed by leftwing governments elected by us all (including them), even if I hate these governments, because I feel our nationhood is more important. Likewise, they have to accept that, sometimes, they will get Tory governments they dislike.
Plus they have Devolution, so they are significantly shielded from London governments they abhor. This is a good deal.
Enough. The world is full of terror and fear. We should be happy that we are blessed to live, in relative peace, on this lucky island, as a united family, for all our bickering.
SeanT turns into SpanielT.
Change a few words and you could have been saying the same about Irish independence a century ago.
I have no idea why, on seeing the Yes-winning Yougov poll, everyone went for some vague idea of "momentum", mostly without bothering to put together any kind of explanation for what was driving it.
Especially since the counter-momentum factor- debates tending to lead to short-lived bounces rather than long-term changes- is well known.
Enough. The world is full of terror and fear. We should be happy that we are blessed to live, in relative peace, on this lucky island, as a united family, for all our bickering.
I said much the same last night and all I got in reply was comments like "Tell that to the Rotherham 1400".
There are people who would find fault in Paradise....
Weird, I see the most read story is "Scotland 'on cusp of making history' ". That Bread star is nowhere on the BBC top 10 read pieces.
However it is on No.13 most popular stories on the Clacton and Frinton gazette website.
After his experiences in 'Bread' I'm sure he'll be ready to be a bit-part player in the by election
When he gets a good hiding in the election the Clacton Tories will be toast!
Very droll,
But he is a local councillor, supporter of the theatre and charities and seems a very good candidate in ordinary circumstances. It will be an interesting contest. I wonder what his position on the EU is.
There was another election planned in four years... When's the next referendum?
And there will be a general election next year and another Scottish parliament election shortly thereafter. It's called democracy. The result will stand for a generation. Otherwise, dear isam, lover of all things ukip and hater of all things EU... you're suggesting we keep asking the Scots until they give the right answer, how very dare you?
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
Of the seats that would go Tory if the results go as last Baxtered the longest shot is Edinburgh South at 66/1. A very long shot, but there are a lot of financial sector workers who are suddenly converted to the cause of Unionism...
Best bets for Tories: Berwickshire, West Aberdeenshire. I don't think Edinburgh South is feasible for the party.
Argyll & Bute constituency is number 3 if there is a swing from the LD to the Tories If there is a swing from the SNP to the Tories then it could be Angus or Perth.
I have no idea why, on seeing the Yes-winning Yougov poll, everyone went for some vague idea of "momentum", mostly without bothering to put together any kind of explanation for what was driving it.
Especially since the counter-momentum factor- debates tending to lead to short-lived bounces rather than long-term changes- is well known.
I think the follow up of a poll neck and neck meant it confirmed the worst fears of pessimistic No supporters like myself, even as it made (or makes, if as I still fear it is genuine momentum) little sense for it to be in response to arguments and the like, which have hardly shifted at all the whole time.
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
Of the seats that would go Tory if the results go as last Baxtered the longest shot is Edinburgh South at 66/1. A very long shot, but there are a lot of financial sector workers who are suddenly converted to the cause of Unionism...
Edinburgh South going Tory?!! Give me a break, it was lost in 1987 at the height of Thatcherism. Even if the Yes campaign narrowly loses the referendum, I still think there will be a surge in support next May for the SNP which will make it harder for either Labour or the Tories to get a majority at the next GE. The forces of separation are rising everywhere, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Scots choose to say we want none of Team Westminster to command a majority government, in order to weaken their power base further - its a perfectly a logical response
Strange how perceptions change. If 3 months ago I'd said there would be a 52N-48Y Yougov a week before the referendum I'd have been laughed off here.
Correct. If the result is 52/48 No, that's an extremely good outcome for Scottish nationalism.
It's not a win, but it forces us to thoroughly reconsider how the UK is governed.
Oh what the heck...I'm going to predict that the actual result will be No winning by a comfortable 10%.
Even 55/45 requires us to reconsider. 45% voting to leave a successful State in peacetime is an awful lot.
It would not surprise me if it was 33% - But that is not the point. 33% might be considered remarkable. The fact is Scotland does have a long history of being an independent country. So it does have its own identity and it should not be surprising that some might want to revert back. But the arguments being used are a bit thin and to put it mildly disingenuous. I would find it truly remakable if the Scots voted for the pig in a poke being offered by Salmond but for some it is a bit of a cult.
Without the intermediate poll YouGov would be applying company showing a 14 point lead evaporation onto a 4 post lead inside a month, with last weekends poll they are now saviors of the union. The hubridsin here is palpable.
Did you trade poorly today ?
Thanks to the thirty seconds of heads up from this here website I traded rather well.
Still, good work by Brown. He does seem to come into his own during crisis situations
I have no love for Gordo. I hated him as PM, and delighted when he was defenestrated, but... the thought of him at Holyrood smacking Eck around is not unattractive.
Agreed. Would give him a new purpose too, rather than languishing on the back benches, and probably a lot more exciting than being in the lords. Although, re: SeanT's idea, can an ennobled person be FM? :')
Yes, if Lord Steel can be the Presiding Officer then no problemo.
However, having followed Gordon's history for many years, I can not really see him wanting to be ennobled let alone knighted. He actually is more honest and sincere than most people give him credit for or believe possible.
If any guy on this site could chuck a very attractive, wealthy, red headed Romanian Princess in your younger student days because it would interfere with your beliefs, then you too, could be a Gordon Brown.
If you turned up at a major University dinner to give a speech and you put on a bow tie over a white polo neck, or gave a Mansion House speech as Chancellor wearing a suit rather than black tie, then you could be a Gordon Brown.
Broon saved the world in 2009. In 2014, he saved the United Kingdom.
What a man !
Thats the tragedy of Brown, under it all, at root he is a decent man whos heart is in the right place, worth ten blairs, cleggs, or camerons. Wholly wrong type of person to be PM though in my opinion and he had to go.
If the SNP implodes, Brown might become scottish first minister.
If No wins and Salmond is left as a busted flush, I cannot see the SNP doing well in 2015 GE. The Tories may do well, particularly with the LDs also doing poorly. The Tories seem re-energised by their campaigning, so may be some gains.
I predict the Tories will gain 2 or 3 seats in scotland in 2015. The only region in Britain where they will gain seats and votes.
Of the seats that would go Tory if the results go as last Baxtered the longest shot is Edinburgh South at 66/1. A very long shot, but there are a lot of financial sector workers who are suddenly converted to the cause of Unionism...
Edinburgh South going Tory?!! Give me a break, it was lost in 1987 at the height of Thatcherism. Even if the Yes campaign narrowly loses the referendum, I still think there will be a surge in support next May for the SNP which will make it harder for either Labour or the Tories to get a majority at the next GE. The forces of separation are rising everywhere, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Scots choose to say we want none of Team Westminster to command a majority government, in order to weaken their power base further - its a perfectly a logical response
It was the poll Baxtered that flagged Edinburgh South as a Tory gain.
But if Yes lose, then a lot of the bile and venom that is being directed at No, will turn internally in the SNP. revolutions tend to consume their own in the end.
If they can time no.2 for election day, that's all they need.
Has there ever been a campaign in history where the winner had been ahead in 1 out of 50ish polls? Could happen but seems unlikely.
I'm a glass half empty sort. I've had this paranoia about the referendum ending up like the 2010 F1 season, where despite never having led the championship the entire season, Vettel won it in the final race, IIRC.
No it makes no sense to make it analogous to a political campaign, I know.
There was another election planned in four years... When's the next referendum?
And there will be a general election next year and another Scottish parliament election shortly thereafter. It's called democracy. The result will stand for a generation. Otherwise, dear isam, lover of all things ukip and hater of all things EU... you're suggesting we keep asking the Scots until they give the right answer, how very dare you?
I'm not suggesting that, I'm suggesting keep asking until there is a significant majority... I don't care one way or the other who wins by the way, so I wouldn't start accusing me of being on either side
You are making my point for me by mentioning elections. If elections were every forty years, an election won by a wafer thin margin would be a disaster for the country. That's why they're every four or five years
Had forgotten it was the last night of the proms this weekend. What was Salmond thinking with his timing? Surely a late swin to NO as everyone sings Rule Britannia.
Seriously it'll be interesting to see how it goes. If you've ever watched it they go around the country with lots of people waving Union flags. Wonder how it will be in Scotland?
Had forgotten it was the last night of the proms this weekend. What was Salmond thinking with his timing? Surely a late swin to NO as everyone sings Rule Britannia.
As a committedly British person...I've not even noticed when it was Last night of the proms for more years than I can remember.
Could be worth some amusement at how it goes though, either way.
Weird, I see the most read story is "Scotland 'on cusp of making history' ". That Bread star is nowhere on the BBC top 10 read pieces.
However it is on No.13 most popular stories on the Clacton and Frinton gazette website.
After his experiences in 'Bread' I'm sure he'll be ready to be a bit-part player in the by election
When he gets a good hiding in the election the Clacton Tories will be toast!
Very droll,
But he is a local councillor, supporter of the theatre and charities and seems a very good candidate in ordinary circumstances. It will be an interesting contest. I wonder what his position on the EU is.
I agree though about Bread. It was a bit lame.
He will get a spanking
Ukip will have won the euros and have an MP by the autumn... Where did 2014 all go wrong for them?
Had forgotten it was the last night of the proms this weekend. What was Salmond thinking with his timing? Surely a late swin to NO as everyone sings Rule Britannia.
As a committedly British person...I've not even noticed when it was Last night of the proms for more years than I can remember.
Could be worth some amusement at how it goes though, either way.
I was on the train out of London on the night of the Last Night, and there were people with union jacks all over the place!
A key reason for the renewed doubts about independence is fear of what might happen to people’s bank accounts. The biggest single advantage of the Union cited by “no” voters is that the UK would have the resources to step in if Scotland faced another crisis of the kind that erupted in 2008.
By remaining in the union, Scotland would be heading head long into a sovereign debt crisis with the rest of the UK which begins from October next year. And the UK have the resources to step in - total debt to GDP in the whole of the UK is around 500%. Try seeing how many economic resources are available when economic confidence turns down. One of the many reasons why Scotland would be better off independent.
BT can try to scare people all they like, but when its based on half truths at best, it really isn't much of a campaign platform. The Scottish people are better than that, all BT wish to do is tell them they're second rate citizens that can't go it alone - what an incredible insult which deserves contempt and rebelling against at every opportunity, particularly a week today.
At work a discussion as to who to use for the company pension scheme.
One requirement it is agreed is preferable on such a long term item is that the pensions provider is not Scottish.
Even if the vote is NO I suspect long term damage has been done to what might be called British national consciousness.
England and Scotland are now separated, the only decision will be whether they live in different houses or unhappily share the same house.
I think proper and full separation is now for the best.
However, a win for No may revive a common patriotism.
A common patriotism about what ???
The United Kingdom had a purpose when it was about defending the Protestant religion or stopping a foreign invasion or building an Empire.
Now its about nothing more than attempting to live at the expense of the other lot.
The Union is DEAD, its time to bury it.
Scots are now to me somewhere between Northern and Southern Irish in their degree of foreignness. The ScotsNats recognise this, the BritNats don't.
When a majority of people feel as you do (and it is at the very least close to that in Scotland, that is true), then the Union will indeed have no purpose, but that is hopefully not the case.
Its clear that a majority of people in Scotland do feel separate from England.
Whether enough of those can be scared into voting NO is all that remains to be seen.
But even if they are (and I expect a NO vote) they're not going to start feeling 'British' again. What is much more likely is that all the future problems Scotland faces will be blamed on the Union.
In Edinburgh there has been a minority, but noticeable movement to putting union flags in windows. These aren't Orangemen, by the way, and I think they themselves would have been surprised even a even a couple of months earlier to think they would do such a thing. I believe some people have discovered a latent nationality with the campaign.
Comments
Keeping (relatively) quiet about my views on this is causing me untold mental anguish. Ask not what your country can do for you....
Yes have ONE poll. Just one.
That Bread star is nowhere on the BBC top 10 read pieces.
However it is on No.13 most popular stories on the Clacton and Frinton gazette website.
That might have been a good idea in the 18th century but its not going to happen now.
So in other words your rebuttal of the Union not being dead is rather wrongheaded.
Though I dare say there would be many Scots amused to see Glasgow Rangers having to play in the Conference North.
All they have to do is get Real Madrid and Barcelona to play in the same League and Catalan nationalism will doubtless die.
Hmmm ....
Or prepare for almost half the nation feeling angry and hopeless
And that's the point, the greater the number of bonds between scotland and england the more difficult it is for the SNP's existence.
Someone on the previous thread said ... 'I am surprised Better Together have not highlighted the division, bitterness and emnity sown in Scottish society by the SNP ...' Fortunately this is because the 'better together' crowd are in fact being much more circumspect then the Nats. Too circumspect I agree. Its pretty weak of the Nats to respond to facts with the venom they do.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28992601
He might have wanted to cover them.
???? think the lib dems will hang on in their south Western strongholds??? or make gains from the tories???? Now that is some prediction...
LD 745 Con 501 UKIP 90 Lab 87
I remind you I think they do have the momentum and that I think they will win, but I do not see how it is controversial to state that using that one poll as a basis to make such grandiose claims about momentum was and is silly of me and Yes, just as it was silly of No (and me) to lose their heads over it and any other subsequent single poll.
I honestly don't know what this objection to stating both sides get overexcited is about sometimes, all sides seem to have trouble accepting they and their opponents overreact to things sometimes. They have good reasons to overreact to every little thing, every little person or business that backs their own particular argument, this is an emotional fight, so why this conceit sometimes that when X crows about the inevitability of their victory on the basis of some single poll or event it is just natural cheer, but when Y does it, their are hysterical, as if it is not the same thing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/11/scottish-independence-darth-vader-music_n_5804224.html
Which reminds me of Billy Connolly about the terror attack on Glasgow airport (why not have Connolly on the NO campaign? ) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gMJBQoHJ4E
Whether enough of those can be scared into voting NO is all that remains to be seen.
But even if they are (and I expect a NO vote) they're not going to start feeling 'British' again. What is much more likely is that all the future problems Scotland faces will be blamed on the Union.
@bbcnickrobinson: To all tweeting about me saying that @AlexSalmond did not answer me : He DID answer re RBS but did NOT re why trust him not company bosses
@IAG80: @bbcnickrobinson @AlexSalmond hang ur head in shame. That was shocking & sickening "reporting". Simply disgusting. You'll get what's coming.
@bbcnickrobinson: .@IAG80 Do tell me - what is coming that I'll get?
Illegitimate result... Cue revolution
err..
As an insurance broker I would not be happy if my hard earned money was going to protect the citizens of a foreign country. In some respects not having the FCA would be a bonus (reducing costs) but that is not a real problem for customers (Many rUK residents insure their cars through companies based in Gibraltar) and the FOS only deals with complaints - but is a valuable aid in ensuring customers are treated fairly.
Well, 'coped' just about covers it, Sean, but I'm afraid the Quebec experience doesn't bode terribly well for what happens next in Scotland.
There was another election planned in four years... When's the next referendum?
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/09/11/1-8-million-protest-in-spain-demanding-separation-like-scotland/
Separation, as I said a couple of nights ago, is on the rise everywhere across Europe. It is all inter-linked - people feeling a sense of helplessness over the lack of say in decisions in their lives, and wanting to bring that power closer to where they live. Its a perfectly natural urge against the mindless centralisation of power that Westminster and at a wider level the EU have foisted upon us over the past 30-40 years or so.
Labour in Scotland praising the Tories on the NHS and Ulster Unionists decrying fences and borders.
Ruth Davidson and George Galloway now the best of friends.
The world is truly turned upside down.
56 polls during 2014, YES 1, NO 55.
Change a few words and you could have been saying the same about Irish independence a century ago.
I have no idea why, on seeing the Yes-winning Yougov poll, everyone went for some vague idea of "momentum", mostly without bothering to put together any kind of explanation for what was driving it.
Especially since the counter-momentum factor- debates tending to lead to short-lived bounces rather than long-term changes- is well known.
There are people who would find fault in Paradise....
Lab 364
Con 212
UKIP 208
LD 121
Green 42
But he is a local councillor, supporter of the theatre and charities and seems a very good candidate in ordinary circumstances. It will be an interesting contest. I wonder what his position on the EU is.
I agree though about Bread. It was a bit lame.
Otherwise, dear isam, lover of all things ukip and hater of all things EU... you're suggesting we keep asking the Scots until they give the right answer, how very dare you?
If there is a swing from the SNP to the Tories then it could be Angus or Perth.
Lab +1.09
Con +3.41
UKIP -0.95
LD +1.87
Green -3.03
The fact is Scotland does have a long history of being an independent country. So it does have its own identity and it should not be surprising that some might want to revert back. But the arguments being used are a bit thin and to put it mildly disingenuous. I would find it truly remakable if the Scots voted for the pig in a poke being offered by Salmond but for some it is a bit of a cult.
However, having followed Gordon's history for many years, I can not really see him wanting to be ennobled let alone knighted. He actually is more honest and sincere than most people give him credit for or believe possible.
If any guy on this site could chuck a very attractive, wealthy, red headed Romanian Princess in your younger student days because it would interfere with your beliefs, then you too, could be a Gordon Brown.
If you turned up at a major University dinner to give a speech and you put on a bow tie over a white polo neck, or gave a Mansion House speech as Chancellor wearing a suit rather than black tie, then you could be a Gordon Brown.
He really doesn't care about fripperies.
But if Yes lose, then a lot of the bile and venom that is being directed at No, will turn internally in the SNP. revolutions tend to consume their own in the end.
But we shall see...
No it makes no sense to make it analogous to a political campaign, I know.
You are making my point for me by mentioning elections. If elections were every forty years, an election won by a wafer thin margin would be a disaster for the country. That's why they're every four or five years
Seriously it'll be interesting to see how it goes. If you've ever watched it they go around the country with lots of people waving Union flags. Wonder how it will be in Scotland?
@SkyNews: THE SCOTSMAN FRONT PAGE: "Company chiefs in Yes vote warning" #skypapers http://t.co/mp54qP9aB2
I watched some of the presser with the sound off. His bobbing and weaving at the lectern is peculiar
Could be worth some amusement at how it goes though, either way.
Ukip will have won the euros and have an MP by the autumn... Where did 2014 all go wrong for them?
BT can try to scare people all they like, but when its based on half truths at best, it really isn't much of a campaign platform. The Scottish people are better than that, all BT wish to do is tell them they're second rate citizens that can't go it alone - what an incredible insult which deserves contempt and rebelling against at every opportunity, particularly a week today.