Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

What to do with a cornered rat. – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,697
edited March 2022 in General
What to do with a cornered rat. – politicalbetting.com

Maps: Tracking the Russian Invasion of Ukraine https://t.co/qvIdv8Pe91

Read the full story here

«13456711

Comments

  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    First, like PB to the issues
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762
    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    There’s no evidence for “vast majority” support for the war, and some (see the polling conducted by Navalny’s supporters, and the willingness of thousands to risk severe punishment for protesting) that there’s significant opposition.

    But I admit disagree with the rest.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,057
    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762
    .

    I know nothing but this all has a kind of a believing our own bullshit vibe to it.

    There's no sign Putin feels like his power is threatened; If he thought he was losing, it's not obvious why he couldn't negotiate a face-saving settlement and withdraw while staying on in Russia; He can say whatever he wants and the media will repeat it, and it was only supposed to be a "special operation" so there's nothing wrong with not conquering the whole country. If he hasn't cut his losses, it's because he doesn't think he's lost. And since his army seems to make a little bit of progress every day on the map even as I scroll through my timeline full of little Ukrainian victories I wouldn't like to jump to any conclusions about the eventual military outcome.

    Given that he's apparently paranoid about an imaginary threat from NATO, it's kind of ridiculous to think he'd trust Western countries to let him retire to a little place in Syria, rather than - say - helping complete the overthrow of Assad in Syria and letting a mob give him the Muammar Gaddafi treatment.

    Probably true, but it does no harm to think about and discuss it, just as with possible negotiated settlements.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Good morning, everyone.

    A cat, terrier, or flamethrower would all seem appropriate options.
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    First .. According to Russian state media.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    JACK_W said:

    First .. According to Russian state media.

    Less reliable than a Lib Dem election graph...
  • Options
    JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 651
    Scott_xP said:

    JACK_W said:

    First .. According to Russian state media.

    Less reliable than a Lib Dem election graph...
    It a close run thing.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,057
    Putin's regime (I think it's correct to call it that now, rather than the 'Russian government', will desperately be trying to divide the west, to put cracks in the sanctions that they can exploit.

    I hope they doesn't succeed. The sanctions need to remain.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    Good morning one and all.

    Not quite sure that Spring has sprung, but it's beginning to look as though it might have.

    How 'loyal' are Putin's generals going to be faced, faced with decreasing supplies? If, indeed, that is the situation.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    Putin's regime (I think it's correct to call it that now, rather than the 'Russian government', will desperately be trying to divide the west, to put cracks in the sanctions that they can exploit.

    I hope they doesn't succeed. The sanctions need to remain.

    I think the West is holding together pretty well and while there is criticism within countries (eg UK & refugees) there is very little criticism between countries - for example when the UK & US were clearly keener on SWIFT suspension than the EU both Biden and Johnson focussed on unity rather than point scoring.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    I know nothing but this all has a kind of a believing our own bullshit vibe to it.

    There's no sign Putin feels like his power is threatened; If he thought he was losing, it's not obvious why he couldn't negotiate a face-saving settlement and withdraw while staying on in Russia; He can say whatever he wants and the media will repeat it, and it was only supposed to be a "special operation" so there's nothing wrong with not conquering the whole country. If he hasn't cut his losses, it's because he doesn't think he's lost. And since his army seems to make a little bit of progress every day on the map even as I scroll through my timeline full of little Ukrainian victories I wouldn't like to jump to any conclusions about the eventual military outcome.

    Given that he's apparently paranoid about an imaginary threat from NATO, it's kind of ridiculous to think he'd trust Western countries to let him retire to a little place in Syria, rather than - say - helping complete the overthrow of Assad in Syria and letting a mob give him the Muammar Gaddafi treatment.

    I agree with the last paragraph and, in any event, he probably would not trust the West (probably rightly) not to renege on the agreement.

    I disagree with some of the first though. We don't know how threatened he feels (the Western Intel seems to have dried up) but, from a common sense standpoint, it is clearly not going well for him as (1) his troops were supplied for a limited number of days with no clear back-up suggesting they were thinking of a clear victory (2) he can no longer rely on Belarus for military support at least given the use of Belarussian troops has not happened (3) even using the independent numbers on who has lost what, a large proportion of Russian losses appear to be abandoned / captured, which suggests low morale (4) the map tells you that there has been little progress and (5) the economy is clearly suffering, especially with a lack of goods.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    However, for a contrary view:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/08/sanctions-vladimir-putin-kremlin-russian-oligarchy

    Russian oligarchs will not put pressure on Putin, not now and not anytime soon. They stay silent, even as they watch their assets and fortunes dwindle. We should have expected this. The west misunderstands the concept of oligarchy in modern Russia, which leaves these powerful actors more beholden to the state – or president – than any outside influence, and prevents the jet-set tycoons we see in the western media from wielding real political power.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    This is what a "hostile environment" looks like

    The family of ex London bus driver Yakiv Voloshchuk were twice detained by UK Border Force officials in Calais, made 8 trips to the UK visa centre in Paris, 2 trips to the UK consulate and 1 trip to the UK embassy before being allowed to travel to UK

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/ukrainian-family-describe-trauma-of-uk-visa-processing
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    When does the same happen to Priti?
    I see Sir Roger Gale and Rory Stewart were, yesterday, talking about her 'misleading' the House and suggesting it was a resigning matter.

    Not, I think, that she will! Or be sacked.

    I'm meeting with some friends from the Witham u3a tomorrow to discuss 'current affairs'. Sadly, from the point of a sensible discussion, none of us voted for her.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Given the natural resources Russia has, how much difference will this make?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095

    Given the natural resources Russia has, how much difference will this make?

    See the thread above. Natural resources but little manufacturing
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    When does the same happen to Priti?
    I see Sir Roger Gale and Rory Stewart were, yesterday, talking about her 'misleading' the House and suggesting it was a resigning matter.

    Not, I think, that she will! Or be sacked.

    I'm meeting with some friends from the Witham u3a tomorrow to discuss 'current affairs'. Sadly, from the point of a sensible discussion, none of us voted for her.
    That she did is unquestionable. She stated the existence of visa centres which didn't exist, and her later correction also proved to be untrue.
    Either she is a flat out liar like the PM, or massively incompetent. Or both.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,019
    I don't think VVP's position is remotely under threat. He gets to define what victory is and can therefore declare it at any time.

    It is interesting how he never says shit about Turkey who are providing more help than anybody outside the US. TuAF have regular A400M movements between Ankara and Rzesow in Poland to bring more TB2s and MAM-Ls.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Given the natural resources Russia has, how much difference will this make?
    What use are natural resources you cannot sell for hard currency?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    When does the same happen to Priti?
    I see Sir Roger Gale and Rory Stewart were, yesterday, talking about her 'misleading' the House and suggesting it was a resigning matter.

    Not, I think, that she will! Or be sacked.

    I'm meeting with some friends from the Witham u3a tomorrow to discuss 'current affairs'. Sadly, from the point of a sensible discussion, none of us voted for her.
    That she did is unquestionable. She stated the existence of visa centres which didn't exist, and her later correction also proved to be untrue.
    Either she is a flat out liar like the PM, or massively incompetent. Or both.
    When all evidence points to both being true - assume both to be true.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    .@EmmanuelMacron first round poll lead is now the highest seen in a 🇫🇷 presidential election since 1965 - the first direct presidential election of the 5th Republic

    https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/elections/presidentielle/emmanuel-macron-gagne-8-5-points-dans-les-intentions-de-vote-au-premier-tour-selon-un-sondage-elabe_VN-202203080667.html
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    Which he hilariously seeks to downplay ignoring what they say theyd have recommended were he still an MP. Odious little creep.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    On topic you squish it with a long handled broom. Rats are a pest and so is Putin.

    I thought Ben Wallace was excellent about this yesterday.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    DavidL said:

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.

    When you look at the other people BoZo ennobled, it clearly was vindictive.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    Scott_xP said:

    Given the natural resources Russia has, how much difference will this make?

    See the thread above. Natural resources but little manufacturing
    Little manufacturing but also few natural resources as when the machines break down that extract the resource the parts won't be available to repair them.

    Now I suspect your typical Russian mine doesn't use a just in time repair system but that probably only gives them a few months rather than a few weeks.

    Not that it matters if Russia is refusing to export things to the West..
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,049
    Scott_xP said:

    .@EmmanuelMacron first round poll lead is now the highest seen in a 🇫🇷 presidential election since 1965 - the first direct presidential election of the 5th Republic

    https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/elections/presidentielle/emmanuel-macron-gagne-8-5-points-dans-les-intentions-de-vote-au-premier-tour-selon-un-sondage-elabe_VN-202203080667.html

    While I agree Macron has had a good crisis, simultaneously supporting Ukraine while listening to Putin's bullshit, that polling is also bullshit.

    That is, he's in the low 30s, and his lead is a consequence of him facing the seven dwarves.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Lol. Nobody will apologise. It was a stick to beat Boris with, not active support for Bercow.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    DavidL said:

    On topic you squish it with a long handled broom. Rats are a pest and so is Putin.

    I thought Ben Wallace was excellent about this yesterday.

    I'd call someone else to deal with a cornered rat. Wouldn't want to dirty my broom.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    Especially given any lowlife scumbag crook has them. They have don ehim a favour and made themselves look like the petty crooks they are, scared to say anything to his face but happy to snipe from teh shadows, lowlifes and cowards.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    .@EmmanuelMacron first round poll lead is now the highest seen in a 🇫🇷 presidential election since 1965 - the first direct presidential election of the 5th Republic

    https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/elections/presidentielle/emmanuel-macron-gagne-8-5-points-dans-les-intentions-de-vote-au-premier-tour-selon-un-sondage-elabe_VN-202203080667.html

    While I agree Macron has had a good crisis, simultaneously supporting Ukraine while listening to Putin's bullshit, that polling is also bullshit.

    That is, he's in the low 30s, and his lead is a consequence of him facing the seven dwarves.
    Low thirties is still better than a president has got for awhile. Never forget some have gotten below 20.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,745
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Perhaps worth analysing why Parliament was so dysfunctional that it chose him as speaker. Perhaps also think about a proven bully remains in charge of the Home Office. There is a lot wrong with a system that promotes bully's.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    As usual our rating agencies well behind the curve. The Russians announced their own default yesterday by stating they were going to repay foreign creditors in roubles. How these organisations survived 2008 more or less intact is one of the great mysteries.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762
    IanB2 said:

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    However, for a contrary view:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/08/sanctions-vladimir-putin-kremlin-russian-oligarchy

    Russian oligarchs will not put pressure on Putin, not now and not anytime soon. They stay silent, even as they watch their assets and fortunes dwindle. We should have expected this. The west misunderstands the concept of oligarchy in modern Russia, which leaves these powerful actors more beholden to the state – or president – than any outside influence, and prevents the jet-set tycoons we see in the western media from wielding real political power.
    That's not really an opposing view.

    Carlotta's link is about the extreme vulnerability of the Russian economy to sanctions as a result of its criminal/oligarchical structure.
    The most powerful oligarchs are thugs like Putin, and their futures tied to him.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.

    When you look at the other people BoZo ennobled, it clearly was vindictive.
    Perhaps his motive was vindictive, but it has also been vindicated by the outcome (which was not certain) so in the end his motive has not mattered on this occasion.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.

    When you look at the other people BoZo ennobled, it clearly was vindictive.
    Greased piglet time again. Got lots of ennoblings wrong but, at the moment anyway, people are talking about this one.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Perhaps worth analysing why Parliament was so dysfunctional that it chose him as speaker. Perhaps also think about a proven bully remains in charge of the Home Office. There is a lot wrong with a system that promotes bully's.
    Bully’s what? Your last sentence was cut short.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Perhaps worth analysing why Parliament was so dysfunctional that it chose him as speaker. Perhaps also think about a proven bully remains in charge of the Home Office. There is a lot wrong with a system that promotes bully's.
    I agree. The response to this report and the response to a very similar report in respect of the HS is marked. She is not fit for office in a variety of ways of which bullying is certainly one.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,422
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 BREAKING 🚨

    An expedition in Antarctica has found the shipwreck of Endurance, the ship which carried Ernest Shackleton and his crew into disaster in 1915. #Endurance22
    https://twitter.com/HackBlackburn/status/1501452732238123012/photo/1

    Massive find
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.

    When you look at the other people BoZo ennobled, it clearly was vindictive.
    Greased piglet time again. Got lots of ennoblings wrong but, at the moment anyway, people are talking about this one.
    wealthy Russians, brother of PM, guys who lend their luxury villa to PM - anyone but a HoC speaker
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095

    Massive find

    The wreck is coherent, in an astonishing state of preservation. The Antarctic seabed does not have any wood eating micro organisms, the water has the clarity of distilled water. We were able to film the wreck in super high definition. The results are magical
    #Endurance22 https://twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/1501455797766733825/photo/1
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,745
    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Never has the saying "when you go seeking revenge, first dig two graves" been so true. Putin is destroying two countries.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think VVP's position is remotely under threat. He gets to define what victory is and can therefore declare it at any time.

    It is interesting how he never says shit about Turkey who are providing more help than anybody outside the US. TuAF have regular A400M movements between Ankara and Rzesow in Poland to bring more TB2s and MAM-Ls.

    He wants a new cold war between him and the West it seems. Emphasising UK and other Europeans replays the glory days for him more than focusing on Erdogan and his own complex relations with the West
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
  • Options
    So whilst I get that the right are delighted that Bercow has been found to be a bully and disgraced, I am confused as to how the same people can also be delighted that Patel has been found to be a bully and remains Home Secretary.

    Standards apply equally or they are not standards.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,276
    IanB2 said:

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    However, for a contrary view:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/08/sanctions-vladimir-putin-kremlin-russian-oligarchy

    Russian oligarchs will not put pressure on Putin, not now and not anytime soon. They stay silent, even as they watch their assets and fortunes dwindle. We should have expected this. The west misunderstands the concept of oligarchy in modern Russia, which leaves these powerful actors more beholden to the state – or president – than any outside influence, and prevents the jet-set tycoons we see in the western media from wielding real political power.
    Both are kind of true?

    The Russian economy will collapse AND Putin isn't afraid of any oligarchs - they are afraid of him and are anyway a bunch of gangsters. But still their assets should be seized.

    Maybe there's a remote chance the Russian military will say "enough is enough, we have achieved our objectives of securing the breakaway republics and Crimea, but Putin has become mentally ill - ordering us to shell our fellow Russians in Ukraine and threatening nuclear holocaust so we've put him under house arrest. And by the way, we just found out he's been stealing billions from the Russian people which we will give back to you". No doubt a fantasy.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,276
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
    Sclerotic?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    edited March 2022
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Perhaps worth analysing why Parliament was so dysfunctional that it chose him as speaker. Perhaps also think about a proven bully remains in charge of the Home Office. There is a lot wrong with a system that promotes bully's.
    It doesn't require much analysis as the answer is obvious and the same in each case - political expediency. No one cares about bullies on their side so long as they feel they are still of use.

    Some might feel a line has been crossed sooner, but the same defenses would be trotted out. Hearsay, its opponents complaining, not the time for this, learned their lesson, take your pick.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    It's going to be a bit tedious wading through all the fulsome apologies of those who claimed Boris was being vindictive in not giving him a peerage though.
    Lol. Nobody will apologise. It was a stick to beat Boris with, not active support for Bercow.
    Really?? 😉
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,914

    So whilst I get that the right are delighted that Bercow has been found to be a bully and disgraced, I am confused as to how the same people can also be delighted that Patel has been found to be a bully and remains Home Secretary.

    Standards apply equally or they are not standards.

    It just shows up the left for being just as willing to turn a blind eye as the right. I sense a parallel with Salmond.

    This is more of a problem for the "good guys"; no one expects the Tories to be saints (especially this iteration).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think VVP's position is remotely under threat. He gets to define what victory is and can therefore declare it at any time.

    It is interesting how he never says shit about Turkey who are providing more help than anybody outside the US. TuAF have regular A400M movements between Ankara and Rzesow in Poland to bring more TB2s and MAM-Ls.

    Perhaps Poland should fly in their MIGs via Turkey ...

    Putin is under no threat from his close circle. But that doesn't mean there isn't the remotest threat to him.
    He now has little control over how the economy fares, or over how many Russian mothers' sons die in his war.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    kamski said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
    Sclerotic?
    Well done, Mr L, to your daughter.
    On the general point, how many 'Windrush' cases have been satisfactorily dealt with?
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,914
    Cicero said:

    I think it is important to recognise that the situation is increasingly dynamic. Tickets on the buses from St. Petersburg to Tallinn routes are selling for hundreds, even thousands of Euros. Every train or bus is full, so it is clear than large numbers of Russians are getting out as quickly as they can.

    Friends over the border are reporting that panic buying has literally emptied supermarkets, and the availability of foreign goods as basically stopped. The banking system is under considerable pressure as people try to retrieve whatever cash they can get. Hard currency has disappeared from the banking system and a black market for hard currency offers rates for cash that are way below whatever official market rates may be. Industry is discovering just how integrated into western supply chains that Russia is. In a matter of maybe three months large chunks of Russian industry will no longer be able to function.

    It is only now that the majority of Russians are beginning to sense that there is something seriously wrong. The Russian media continues to push the propaganda bullshit of the regime, but rumours of horrific losses are beginning to cut through, albeit very slowly.

    In Tallinn, Blinken came last night and continued to make the point that any attack in this direction would be answered with full force. In fact the Baltic now feels like a pretty safe place to be and neither does it feel like the "West Berlin" of Richard Milnes piece in the FT today. More troops and air cover are coming, and in any event the nearest viable Russian attack force is over a thousand miles away.

    We are bedding down for a long crisis, with preparations for long stays for the Ukrainian refugees, it will be a struggle to cope with large numbers, given that the population of Estonia is only 1.3 million. Yet, the country has come together, with even the Russian speakers now recognising that Putin is our collective enemy. The horror at the barbaric actions of the Russian army is deeply felt, and Ukrainian colours are everywhere.

    This crisis might last quite a while. The popularity of the PM, Kaja Kallas, has rocketed and many have said to me how relieved they are that she is in charge. All the attempts by Putinist subversion to promote the populist right wing over the past few years have come to nothing.

    Estonia is ready to deal with whatever next this crisis throws up.

    Could we end up with a Russian refugee crisis? I think we should really turn the screw now.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,668
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Busy day dealing with war and stuff, but just wanted to laugh out loud at the bully Bercow finally getting his comeuppance.

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    When does the same happen to Priti?
    I see Sir Roger Gale and Rory Stewart were, yesterday, talking about her 'misleading' the House and suggesting it was a resigning matter.

    Not, I think, that she will! Or be sacked.

    I'm meeting with some friends from the Witham u3a tomorrow to discuss 'current affairs'. Sadly, from the point of a sensible discussion, none of us voted for her.
    That she did is unquestionable. She stated the existence of visa centres which didn't exist, and her later correction also proved to be untrue.
    Either she is a flat out liar like the PM, or massively incompetent. Or both.
    @leon Do you still think this is some Twitter focused issue only (ps I don't use twitter). This is a national embarrassment. Families of British people who can't get visas. Can't get appointments for visas.

    Talk of riot in Poland as they are locked out of a warm office and queue in freezing weather. French families providing accommodation in Calais. France providing free transport from Calais to Paris to get to the office for visas that we couldn't be arsed to set up for them locally. I am so embarrassed. It is not as if there can be many related to British nationals and presumably easy to prove.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,762

    So whilst I get that the right are delighted that Bercow has been found to be a bully and disgraced, I am confused as to how the same people can also be delighted that Patel has been found to be a bully and remains Home Secretary.

    Standards apply equally or they are not standards.

    I'd be pleased to see the back of both of them, irrespective of any sympathy I had for some of Bercow's rulings in the Commons.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    It seems we are doing our usual trick of not supporting local embassy staff when things go pearshaped (see Afghanistan for the previous example).

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-embassy-staff-diplomats-uk-b2031024.html
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    kamski said:

    DavidL said:

    kamski said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
    Sclerotic?
    Far too generous. It is designed to make it as difficult as possible in the hope that people go elsewhere. That doctor had been living in a hotel room with his wife and 2 kids along with 2 unconnected adult men. It is a measure of his desperation that he is still here.

    How anyone thought that an organisation with that mindset was going to wave Ukranians through bewilders me.
    Yes, sorry I was being snarky. I also have family with really shitty experience of the Home Office. Priti Patel is a disgrace, but these issues predate her by quite a long time.
    Theresa May's tenure at the Home Office didn't give many examples of Christian charity!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    Nigelb said:

    So whilst I get that the right are delighted that Bercow has been found to be a bully and disgraced, I am confused as to how the same people can also be delighted that Patel has been found to be a bully and remains Home Secretary.

    Standards apply equally or they are not standards.

    I'd be pleased to see the back of both of them, irrespective of any sympathy I had for some of Bercow's rulings in the Commons.
    Indeed. As the report suggested if history judges him a good Speaker that wouldn't have requires his personal professional conduct.

    Lord Lisvane described Bercow's reaction as hysterical petulance, which seems right. Such histrionic self martyrdom. Classic response of a bully.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Never has the saying "when you go seeking revenge, first dig two graves" been so true. Putin is destroying two countries.
    It's actually worse than that - as a collective the west will do what it can to help the Ukraine recover (heck we need it to for grain if nothing else) while few firms will rush to return to Russia - the risks are too great.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,827
    Very much agree with Cyclefre's thinking. It was morally awkward, but back in the day many a dangerous leader was usurped to go and live a quiet life of modest luxury in some far off region, or alternatively Surrey/Berkshire, and it served a purpose. It need not be a Russia 'friendly' country who takes on the task either, Patagonia would suit Putin down to the ground.

    If that is what it took, I'd not object to our making such a deal, even if a date with the ICC would better suit natural justice.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Never has the saying "when you go seeking revenge, first dig two graves" been so true. Putin is destroying two countries.
    It's actually worse than that - as a collective the west will do what it can to help the Ukraine recover (heck we need it to for grain if nothing else) while few firms will rush to return to Russia - the risks are too great.
    The canary in that call mine will be Trafigura. Watch what they do....
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
    I also don't believe that. To turn away from refugees he would have to had turned towards them in the first place. Nor is this Home Office incompetence acting against the instructions of the Bully Patel. It is policy. Lets consider actions so far:

    0. Refugees may apply to pick our fruit, tweets immigration minister
    1. Of course we aren't taking refugees like the EU says Raaaaab - they are close, we are far away. Yet Ireland took 3,500% more than we did in that initial phase
    2. Ukrainian refugees are declared as are a security threat to Britain if they travel to Ireland and then onwards to the UK via the system set up by the Tories for that very purpose
    3. Patel says we are opening up safe lanes for refugees
    4. Johnson says we are not opening up safe lanes for refugees
    5. Patel says we will open up a humanitarian route to Britain for refugees.
    6. Johnson says we are not opening up a humanitarian route to Britain for refugees
    7. Patel says we have a "very generous" visa processing scheme in Calais (cue Leon screaming WHY ARE THEY GOING TO CALAIS - VERY SUSPICIOUS!!!)
    8. Downing Street admits there is no such thing in Calais
    9. We put up posters in Calais saying "no visas here, go away"
    10. Patel says we would like to offer visas in Calais, "we are planning one" and invites refugees to call the "free application hotline"
    11. Which only works if you are already in the UK and isn't free
    12. Patel invites refugees to go Paris or Brussels
    13. Patel insists reports that we have not let in hardly any refugees is wrong. Then confirms that we have let in hardly any refugees

    But be rest assured, the Big Dog lies that our unique "scheme" is world-leading.

    In the real world our actions are shaming and a disgrace. Uniquely we refuse to let refugees seek sanctuary in our country, lie about it, have desperate women and children going up and down seeking visas they can't get.

    Seriously, why are you providing succour to this disgrace?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Pro_Rata said:

    Very much agree with Cyclefre's thinking. It was morally awkward, but back in the day many a dangerous leader was usurped to go and live a quiet life of modest luxury in some far off region, or alternatively Surrey/Berkshire, and it served a purpose. It need not be a Russia 'friendly' country who takes on the task either, Patagonia would suit Putin down to the ground.

    If that is what it took, I'd not object to our making such a deal, even if a date with the ICC would better suit natural justice.

    I personally do not see Putin getting out of Russia alive.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 BREAKING 🚨

    An expedition in Antarctica has found the shipwreck of Endurance, the ship which carried Ernest Shackleton and his crew into disaster in 1915. #Endurance22
    https://twitter.com/HackBlackburn/status/1501452732238123012/photo/1


    “For scientific discovery, give me Scott; for speed and efficiency of travel, give me Amundsen; but when you are in a hopeless situation, when you are seeing no way out, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton”
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    BREAKING - Fitch cuts Russia's rating, says debt default imminent​ - Reuters News
    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1501321502469230593

    Given the natural resources Russia has, how much difference will this make?
    What use are natural resources you cannot sell for hard currency?
    What use are natural resources you cannot extract as you can not acquire or repair the complex machinery required to extract them?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited March 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    However, for a contrary view:
    I’d call them complimentary rather than contrary - Putin’s mafia state is based on extractive industries which the oligarchs dominate. Russian manufacturing on the other hand relies almost completely on imports - there’s an amusing story about a bureaucrat who got promoted for creating a “Russian” tractor - all they did was import it in kit form. The manufacturing economy will already be struggling, and extractive industries will shortly follow.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,325
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
    FWIW I was reading the comments of a British expat working out in Russia (who is keeping his head down and hoping to stay out there) on another forum; his take is that there is tremendous support for Putin amongst Russians, based on their proud nationalism and obsession with WWII as great as ours. He reckons that when the truth (about the casualties and lack of military success) finally reaches Russians, rather than blame Putin they'll mostly blame the West, and we'll be in a new cold war.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    .@EmmanuelMacron first round poll lead is now the highest seen in a 🇫🇷 presidential election since 1965 - the first direct presidential election of the 5th Republic

    https://www.bfmtv.com/politique/elections/presidentielle/emmanuel-macron-gagne-8-5-points-dans-les-intentions-de-vote-au-premier-tour-selon-un-sondage-elabe_VN-202203080667.html

    While I agree Macron has had a good crisis, simultaneously supporting Ukraine while listening to Putin's bullshit, that polling is also bullshit.

    That is, he's in the low 30s, and his lead is a consequence of him facing the seven dwarves.
    Banned from Parliament, Bercow is now seeking to be the French President?
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    kamski said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson is turning away Ukranian refugees to appease his anti-immigrant base support and shore up votes for the next election, according to a former Conservative minister.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1aade802-9f29-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=7bd1edcb6fb2bb3d2e69e5101efe21a4

    Don't believe that. It is bound to take time for a department entirely focused on bureaucratic impediments and built on a default disbelief of any story, no matter how compelling and vouched, to an open door policy. And this starts from the top.

    On the positive side a client my daughter was helping through her charity work got refugee status yesterday. He and his family were here from Aleppo (seriously). It took the system more than 2 years to give him that status which allows him to work. In Syria he was a qualified doctor. Everyone loses from a system like that.
    Sclerotic?
    Far too generous. It is designed to make it as difficult as possible in the hope that people go elsewhere. That doctor had been living in a hotel room with his wife and 2 kids along with 2 unconnected adult men. It is a measure of his desperation that he is still here.

    How anyone thought that an organisation with that mindset was going to wave Ukranians through bewilders me.
    Instruct Border Force staff to pass Ukraininan women and children. Its that simple. Yes, getting a fast visa scheme working is beyond them. But we are the ONLY EUROPEAN COUNTRY demanding they apply for visas. Just let them in. Do the decent thing.

    So, the right cheering the downfall of the Bully Bercow. Do the same rules apply to the Bully Patel and we now expect her dismissal? If not dismissed for having been found to be a bully, can we have her dismissed for lying to the House about her visa processing centre in Calais, then lying to the house in response to her lies about it?

    No? Standards aren't what they used to be.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Mr. Sandpit, quite the fall from grace, from in charge of the House of Commons to not allowed a pass to get in the building.

    Appointing him rather than the excellent Sir George Young was yet another bit of New Labour hubris that has unravelled after doing a hell of a lot of damage. Prescott, Brown and the others are even further discredited today.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    Massive find

    The wreck is coherent, in an astonishing state of preservation. The Antarctic seabed does not have any wood eating micro organisms, the water has the clarity of distilled water. We were able to film the wreck in super high definition. The results are magical
    #Endurance22 https://twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/1501455797766733825/photo/1
    That is truly incredible.

    In all the darkness happening at the minute, that is something truly brilliant.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    That’s fascinating - and plausible.

    It also implies that “damaging” Ukraine may be sufficient - conquest not necessary
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,745
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
    FWIW I was reading the comments of a British expat working out in Russia (who is keeping his head down and hoping to stay out there) on another forum; his take is that there is tremendous support for Putin amongst Russians, based on their proud nationalism and obsession with WWII as great as ours. He reckons that when the truth (about the casualties and lack of military success) finally reaches Russians, rather than blame Putin they'll mostly blame the West, and we'll be in a new cold war.
    Russians respect a strong guy, and have great admiration for their military, but what happens when that strong guy has been shown to be a failure, and the military has been shown as a failure?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Roberts, something I saw which raised a smile the other day was an extinct species of plant being brought back to life after seeds in a clay jar from millennia ago were discovered:

    https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1501040257004818434
  • Options
    Dead right, Cyclefree. I'd be up for that.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,388
    What are the circumstances in which Putin might be forced out?

    A coup is possible, perhaps but Putin seems to have worked hard to prevent alternative centres of power from existing.

    A popular uprising, then? For all that the protests by Russians against the war are admirable and courageous, it seems to be a minority position. It could take years of war to change that.

    There seem to me to be broadly two scenarios.

    1. An early end to the war is possible at any time, when Putin decides he is happy to bank his gains. For example, this might happen as soon as Mariupol is taken, and the land bridge to Crimea secured. The Ukraine left under Ukrainian control is largely shattered by the war. To what extent does the West provide support to rebuild Ukraine, when round 3 of the conflict could kick off at any time?

    2. The war might drag on for a very long time. This seems most likely to result in a Russian defeat, on the assumption that Ukraine is receiving more war material from the West than Russia is able to produce for itself. But this defeat would be akin to the German defeat in WWI - a defeat only on foreign land. It's a defeat that wounds Russia, leaving it to tend its grievances, and to come back later to seek revenge. And the destruction to Ukraine is all the greater.

    I struggle to see a good ending. We are likely, soon, to see the number of refugees who have left Ukraine exceed 4 million, and keep increasing. At this point there will be fewer than 40 million people left in Ukraine. Will the country ever recover to have a population greater than 40 million again?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,745

    IanB2 said:

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    However, for a contrary view:
    I’d call them complimentary rather than contrary - Putin’s mafia state is based on extractive industries which the oligarchs dominate. Russian manufacturing on the other hand relies almost completely on imports - there’s an amusing story about a bureaucrat who got promoted for creating a “Russian” tractor - all they did was import it in kit form. The manufacturing economy will already be struggling, and extractive industries will shortly follow.
    Sanctions can reinforce a leader though, as with Saddam. When all essentials are rationed, those in charge of the rationing have a lot of control.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
    FWIW I was reading the comments of a British expat working out in Russia (who is keeping his head down and hoping to stay out there) on another forum; his take is that there is tremendous support for Putin amongst Russians, based on their proud nationalism and obsession with WWII as great as ours. He reckons that when the truth (about the casualties and lack of military success) finally reaches Russians, rather than blame Putin they'll mostly blame the West, and we'll be in a new cold war.
    He cant compete so he shoots for isolation and relying on that kind of sentiment. It has logic to it.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    On topic - the arguments about this go back to Pinochet and beyond.

    Remember in the world we live, the terrorists of NI are specifically protected from prosecution - because they have made it clear that is the one thing that would get them away from their 6 figure salaries and back to the Armalites... The occasionally exception is jailed for an old offence - those are the ones that don't have friends anymore.

    What is one more deal with one more devil?

    The problem is getting him to take such an "out" - he will, following the pattern of all such leaders, have got to the stage of identifying himself with the State. The destruction of Putin, according to Putin, will mean the destruction of Russia.

    In a way, it is true. The Greater Russia he and his ilk propose cannot live in peace with it's neighbours - the whole point of GR is that it doesn't live in *peace* with its neighbours. More, that they live in fear.

    It is quite clear that the acceptable results, for the West (and probably Ukraine) are either Russia gives up it's Imperial ambitions in Ukraine, or that Ukraine is given military guarantees. These guarantees would have to be of the level of what Israel gets from the US.

    To a Greater Russian Nationalist, either situation is unacceptable. So, the price of peace is the end of Greater Russian Nationalism dominating Russian politics.....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947

    Thread on Putin’s “Mafia State” and why that will heighten the impact of sanctions:

    Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient🧵

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388?s=21

    That’s fascinating - and plausible.

    It also implies that “damaging” Ukraine may be sufficient - conquest not necessary
    Not sure it ever was, despite his grandiose pronouncements. A glorified raid and small seizure perhaps.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
    FWIW I was reading the comments of a British expat working out in Russia (who is keeping his head down and hoping to stay out there) on another forum; his take is that there is tremendous support for Putin amongst Russians, based on their proud nationalism and obsession with WWII as great as ours. He reckons that when the truth (about the casualties and lack of military success) finally reaches Russians, rather than blame Putin they'll mostly blame the West, and we'll be in a new cold war.
    If my son had been killed in Ukraine with a British supplied anti tank system I would be pretty bitter about it for a long time and I wouldn't just blame mad Vlad. A new cold war looks pretty inevitable.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The 'hard' problem is this: it is not all about Putin. His leadership and regime is supported by a vast majority. What we are seeing is in part the will of the people. In the end, the will and resolve of its people, and their imperial delusions and claims over large parts of Europe, have to be broken. I think it is an error to think that this is necessarily over if/when Putin and Lavrov get removed.

    In a way, yes.

    But in a way, no.

    Putin's regime has spent two decades demolishing press freedoms in Russia. The media has slowly become the regime's mouthpiece - or else. Therefore much of the Russian public is fed Putin's worldview, and not any opposing view.
    The situation is what it is. People are protesting against Putin's regime, but they are a minority. Even if it is a significant minority, it is still a minority. There are deeper nationalist forces at play. It feels a bit like China 3 decades ago and Tiannamen Square - a country decisively moving in one direction. Of course we have sympathy for the 'losers' in such a scenario, but it shouldn't impact on how we view the threat from the regime.

    There are big differences, though.
    China wasn't prosecuting a war of aggression which it was in danger of losing. Nor was its economy collapsing as a result of western sanctions.
    And there was no real opposition within the existing state structure (Navalny and his followers).
    FWIW I was reading the comments of a British expat working out in Russia (who is keeping his head down and hoping to stay out there) on another forum; his take is that there is tremendous support for Putin amongst Russians, based on their proud nationalism and obsession with WWII as great as ours. He reckons that when the truth (about the casualties and lack of military success) finally reaches Russians, rather than blame Putin they'll mostly blame the West, and we'll be in a new cold war.
    A relative of mine publicly (Facebook and elsewhere) denounced the invasion. All her friends and former colleagues in Russia sued up to denounce her. Hard to know, of course, if that is just "Soviet times" denunciation, but she thinks it is real and heart felt.

    Threats of murder are something - when they come from retired senior military, that is something again....
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. L, it already existed.

    Not the first time the West has been dangerously complacent.
This discussion has been closed.