"Multi-billionaire oligarchs at heart of corruption cases have been welcomed by our financial institutions with open arms... It shows the cynical greed of lawyers and spin doctors getting rich as Vladimir Putin cronies' cheerleaders"
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
I agree with all of this, except Macron isn't a preening peacock. If anyone's capable of and placed to rally Europe in the upcoming time, it's him.
Our sanctions should be so heavy that we feel pain, let alone Russia. Such an act of unprovoked war in Europe cannot go unpunished and we should be collectively willing to pay some sacrifice to make sure Russia suffers for these actions.
Freeze and start legal action to confiscate assets of anyone linked to Putin. Ban anyone in the West from holding Russian government or Ruble denominated debt. Cut access to Swift. Sanction all Russian banks. Implement a energy plan that makes Europe independent of Russian oil/gas as soon as possible.
Agreed. We need a complete and 100% isolation of Russia akin to and beyond what happened to the Apartheid South Africa. Ban them from finance, from sports, from anything and everything.
On the latter, not to be replaced with "I can't believe it's not Russia" Olympic teams ... Banned full stop. Cut off entirely from the world.
So, about yesterday's debate where you were dead against freezing Russian assets and suspected Russian assets in the UK...
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
I agree with all of this, except Macron isn't a preening peacock. If anyone's capable of and placed to rally Europe in the upcoming time, it's him.
Indeed. Hard to see the Putin loving Le Pen getting a look in now.
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
I agree with all of this, except Macron isn't a preening peacock. If anyone's placed to rally Europe in the upcoming time, it's him.
Well I am glad to hear it. I had been assured on here that Macron's diplomacy was literally preening, and far inferior to the efforts of the Big Dog and his cosplay FS.
To me, the atrocity of shooting down a commercial airline was amongst the worst.
But what did we do? Bugger all, effectively. We continued to rinse Putin's money.
And that same year our Prime Minister Boris Johnson played tennis with Putin's ex finance minister because his wife donated £160,000 to the Conservative Party.
Many of you tories stink. (Not TSE who seems to have a moral compass). I think you know it deep down too.
What has become apparent over the last decade or so is that, for all its problems, Putin's Russia has a far greater degree of self confidence than the west. By contrast the west is mired in confusion, cowardice and self hate. There was nothing more emblematic of this than the Afghanistan debacle, now followed by the invasion of Ukraine. The west is collapsing in the face of illiberal, undemocratic and authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately, there is nothing about NATO that means it will ultimately prevail against this wave of change.
I hate to be depressing, and get as angry about the situation as everyone else; but the reality of this is that not many of us really want to fight Russia, which is why we are where we are in Ukraine.
Let’s see how much happens - Ukraine Foreign Minister
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT 2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats 3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine 4. Financial assistance 5. Humanitarian assistance
"Multi-billionaire oligarchs at heart of corruption cases have been welcomed by our financial institutions with open arms... It shows the cynical greed of lawyers and spin doctors getting rich as Vladimir Putin cronies' cheerleaders"
To me, the atrocity of shooting down a commercial airline was amongst the worst.
But what did we do? Bugger all, effectively. We continued to rinse Putin's money.
And that same year our Prime Minister Boris Johnson played tennis with Putin's ex finance minister because his wife donated £160,000 to the Conservative Party.
Many of you tories stink. (Not TSE who seems to have a moral compass). I think you know it deep down too.
I've said for a while that we need to significantly ramp up defence spending and restore the power of our armed forces to actually be effective. Now that we surely are at the point of decision is there anything practical we can do?
Three buckets: cyber security, personnel, equipment. On cyber security we seem to have acquiesced to the threat and won't even accept it is real and has already been deployed. If Russia wanted to bring down the national grid or our banking system can we stop them? On personnel do we have the ability to train "we want you" recruits even if we decide to go for it? And then what kit are they to be given - do we have the ability to manufacture more tanks / jets / boats etc?
Chamberlain - for all the criticism - gave us time to rearm. So that when the balloon went up we just about had sufficient resources to repel them. We need a similar period of time, and we need to rearm just as we did back then. I don't want war, but as we have learned repeatedly one way to avoid it is to be prepared for it. And we are not.
Domestically, this should: 1. End the access Farage and co have had to mainstream media outlets. 2. Finish off the flow of Russian money into the Conservative party. 3. Kill off London as a haven for Russian investors. 4. End the careers of all Labour Stop the War apologists. Sadly, the likelihood is that none of this will happen.
Let’s see how much happens - Ukraine Foreign Minister
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT 2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats 3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine 4. Financial assistance 5. Humanitarian assistance
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
What I'm afraid of is an alliance between Russia and China against the West. Taiwan for example.
That would mean war. Taiwan is absolutely critical to our economy. They supply more than half our computer chips. America will defend it for national self interest reasons.
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
If not today then soon. Do we have the ability to defend against them? Downing Street won't even accept that there has been long-standing low scale cyber warfare going on.
.@TomTugendhat withering on @BBCr4today about @BorisJohnso Brexit boasts: "One of the reasons I was were given for leaving the European Union was that we could do independent sanctions. That's what I was told by the then Foreign Secretary in 2018. Well let's see them."
"Multi-billionaire oligarchs at heart of corruption cases have been welcomed by our financial institutions with open arms... It shows the cynical greed of lawyers and spin doctors getting rich as Vladimir Putin cronies' cheerleaders"
I've said for a while that we need to significantly ramp up defence spending and restore the power of our armed forces to actually be effective. Now that we surely are at the point of decision is there anything practical we can do?
Three buckets: cyber security, personnel, equipment. On cyber security we seem to have acquiesced to the threat and won't even accept it is real and has already been deployed. If Russia wanted to bring down the national grid or our banking system can we stop them? On personnel do we have the ability to train "we want you" recruits even if we decide to go for it? And then what kit are they to be given - do we have the ability to manufacture more tanks / jets / boats etc?
Chamberlain - for all the criticism - gave us time to rearm. So that when the balloon went up we just about had sufficient resources to repel them. We need a similar period of time, and we need to rearm just as we did back then. I don't want war, but as we have learned repeatedly one way to avoid it is to be prepared for it. And we are not.
Re - your last paragraph. That is exactly the position taken in the recent film on Chamberlain. I think it is on Netflix. I must try and catch it.
To me, the atrocity of shooting down a commercial airline was amongst the worst.
But what did we do? Bugger all, effectively. We continued to rinse Putin's money.
And that same year our Prime Minister Boris Johnson played tennis with Putin's ex finance minister because his wife donated £160,000 to the Conservative Party.
Many of you tories stink. (Not TSE who seems to have a moral compass). I think you know it deep down too.
Domestically, this should: 1. End the access Farage and co have had to mainstream media outlets. 2. Finish off the flow of Russian money into the Conservative party. 3. Kill off London as a haven for Russian investors. 4. End the careers of all Labour Stop the War apologists. Sadly, the likelihood is that none of this will happen.
None of that will happen. (Ditto China/Chinese money).
What will happen is a huge wave of migrants/refugees into the EU.
And then countries will find reasons why they don't want Ukrainian migrants.
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
If not today then soon. Do we have the ability to defend against them? Downing Street won't even accept that there has been long-standing low scale cyber warfare going on.
I think that with GCHQ we probably have one of the best defences in the world but it is a hell of a lot easier to disrupt than it is to protect.
I've said for a while that we need to significantly ramp up defence spending and restore the power of our armed forces to actually be effective. Now that we surely are at the point of decision is there anything practical we can do?
Three buckets: cyber security, personnel, equipment. On cyber security we seem to have acquiesced to the threat and won't even accept it is real and has already been deployed. If Russia wanted to bring down the national grid or our banking system can we stop them? On personnel do we have the ability to train "we want you" recruits even if we decide to go for it? And then what kit are they to be given - do we have the ability to manufacture more tanks / jets / boats etc?
Chamberlain - for all the criticism - gave us time to rearm. So that when the balloon went up we just about had sufficient resources to repel them. We need a similar period of time, and we need to rearm just as we did back then. I don't want war, but as we have learned repeatedly one way to avoid it is to be prepared for it. And we are not.
Alas you are right. We need a big stick. I listened to his speech. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, once that’s done the pressure will be on the Baltic states and Poland. They will be asked to renounce NATO in return for peace. And so on until the Russian empire is restored.
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
Naval sources tell me that Russian submarines are often around here trying to tap into the comms cables that run across the Channel, and the C5 documentary 'Life on a Warship' included an episode where one was found doing the same with the transatlantic cables. Perhaps we will find out what they have been up to?
Let’s see how much happens - Ukraine Foreign Minister
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT 2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats 3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine 4. Financial assistance 5. Humanitarian assistance
Yes, all of that.
We also have to work out what we need to do to ensure that we can defend the Baltic States even if a Trumpist US withdraws and then do it. We have consistently been behind events, reacting poorly to Putin's actions. It's time that we got ahead of events.
"Multi-billionaire oligarchs at heart of corruption cases have been welcomed by our financial institutions with open arms... It shows the cynical greed of lawyers and spin doctors getting rich as Vladimir Putin cronies' cheerleaders"
See, the fuming against Putin by the right-wingers on here absolves them from their responsibilities.
We have washed dirty money in London and our sanctions are feeble. Rant and rage against Putin (he's an evil man, or is that just he's a man?).
Anything to deflect from the stinking corruption of rinsing Putin's money which has been fostered under this utterly corrupt Conservative Party.
"their responsibilities" ?
This conflict is the responsibility of Putin. He is to blame. He's wanted this war for years.
It should be noted that you just wrote a comment which in its entirety was about *our* supposed wrongdoing, as if nothing was happening in Ukraine.
I won't go as far as Heathener, but there is a point being made. Putin has spent a decade plus undermining the west. Not only are we on the tit for his gas and for their money, we don't seem bothered by the flooding of social media by Russian agents manipulating the way we think and act. Indeed when the narrow scope ISC investigation found both evidence of direct Russian meddling and recommended defences against more, this Prime Minister refused to accept that or take any action other than keep welcoming Russian money into London.
That is literally providing succour to Putin. And its far far worse in America where the President in the south declares his continued love for Putin. So yes. Their responsibilities in making the west a neutered mess that Putin can now ignore with impunity.
We can fix all that and turn it around. BDS. But as we propose such measures to even use our existing laws to do so, its banning free speech, its blood and soil racism, its political point scoring.
Either Putin and Russia are the enemy or they are not. What kind of enemy gets to be allowed to broadcast propaganda, to sponsor football tournaments, to rinse billions in dirty money through London, to directly influence our political system? This has to stop. Or we cannot stop Putin.
One thing I do is negotiate deals. You can't successfully do so without fully understanding the counterparty. Their position. Their expectations. Their opinions. "He's evil" isn't remotely enough, especially when you're telling him he isn't evil by continuing to have your society on the hook to him.
Putin has put his regime at risk by launching this attack. The West needs to start thinking about the circumstances in which it would be willing to see him fall from power (obvious benefits, but also a risk of turmoil in the country with the world's largest nuclear arsenal).
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
This all sounds plausible when you put it like that but I'm just trying to think what it means in practice.
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because they have a rational fear of it escalating into nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
I shall leave the bellicose, and understandably very angry, armchair generals to their fuming.
Putin is evil. I've never thought any different. So is Boris Johnson. So is Donald Trump. So is Nigel Farage.
Have a good day.
Utter whataboutery - which sovereign states have any of them invaded? Troll!
I think you called me a troll yesterday as well. I always see accusing a regular of being a troll as a weak sign that you've run out of anything useful to say except be insulting and rude. It's the last resort of a feeble mind.
I don't share your right-wing bellicosity but I won't call you a troll.
There are many evil people in the world, mostly men. Putin is one but only one.
I enjoy my life by distancing myself as much as I can from those who cause harm. As a Buddhist I don't generally believe in conflict. If I was in Ukraine now what would I do? Probably let them invade without bloodshed. It's awful, I know.
And for those on the far right on here ... I may have got it wrong about this invasion (because I didn't think Putin was that stupid) but I've called it correctly about Boris Johnson. I didn't think he would be removed this side of the General Election when some of you were so certain he would be. He will find another crisis to lurch to and latch onto and, before we know it, we'll be at the eve of the election.
This is very grim for Ukraine. Putin is an evil man but this isn't WWIII.
You have no idea whatsoever of the fear across Ukraine, its people and children, and the pictures of gridlock as people attempt to leave with their families to safeguard their lives
It is horrific and it is Putin and nobody else who is responsible for waging war against innocent, men, women and children
First the great financial crisis, then Covid, now this. It's an awful world.
We've still got the World Cup to look forward to this year.
If Ukraine beat Scotland (lol) and Russia beat Poland (without invading them with the elite 22nd Mechanised Rapist Division) then the finals of the UEFA play off for qualification could be Russia vs Ukraine in Moscow. Football, bloody hell!
The quicker that world sporting bodies remove Russia the better. Sorry Vlad, you can't invade places and then still get to advertise Gazprom and send your teams out like we're all friends.
Were the US and the allies removed from world sport for the invasion of Iraq ?
Or the Soviets for the invasion of Afghanistan.
Or the Chinese for the treatment of the Uighurs.
Of course not. Sport only seems to take sanction when political bodies interfere in the admin of sporting adminstrations.
What has become apparent over the last decade or so is that, for all its problems, Putin's Russia has a far greater degree of self confidence than the west. By contrast the west is mired in confusion, cowardice and self hate. There was nothing more emblematic of this than the Afghanistan debacle, now followed by the invasion of Ukraine. The west is collapsing in the face of illiberal, undemocratic and authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately, there is nothing about NATO that means it will ultimately prevail against this wave of change.
I hate to be depressing, and get as angry about the situation as everyone else; but the reality of this is that not many of us really want to fight Russia, which is why we are where we are in Ukraine.
On the contrary, this is not evidence of self confident Russia, this is evidence of a deeply paranoid and insecure Russia.
My only trip to Russia was to St Petersburg and Moscow for the 2018 World Cup. My boys and I had a great time, and the locals were very welcoming. It wasn't a self confident country though.
The desire for Western consumerism was obvious, and quite the cultural cringe at times. There was a deeply ambivalent attitude to the Soviet period, with great pride in the military. Yesterday was the Russian equivalent to Armistice day, and strange to see Putin laying a wreath at the War memorial that we too had paid our respects to.
Let’s see how much happens - Ukraine Foreign Minister
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT 2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats 3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine 4. Financial assistance 5. Humanitarian assistance
Yes, all of that.
We also have to work out what we need to do to ensure that we can defend the Baltic States even if a Trumpist US withdraws and then do it. We have consistently been behind events, reacting poorly to Putin's actions. It's time that we got ahead of events.
We can only defend these states by going to war with Russia. The is the reality. Will that happen?
I have the sense that NATO will soon be tested, and it may well disappoint people.
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
Naval sources tell me that Russian submarines are often around here trying to tap into the comms cables that run across the Channel, and the C5 documentary 'Life on a Warship' included an episode where one was found doing the same with the transatlantic cables. Perhaps we will find out what they have been up to?
The idea that we will impose “devastating” sanctions and Russia will not respond fiercely is for the birds. This is not a weak Middle Eastern country we can hurt with impunity. They will respond.
Let’s see how much happens - Ukraine Foreign Minister
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT 2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats 3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine 4. Financial assistance 5. Humanitarian assistance
Yes, all of that.
We also have to work out what we need to do to ensure that we can defend the Baltic States even if a Trumpist US withdraws and then do it. We have consistently been behind events, reacting poorly to Putin's actions. It's time that we got ahead of events.
We can only defend these states by going to war with Russia. The is the reality. Will that happen?
I have the sense that NATO will soon be tested, and it may well disappoint people.
You don’t have to go to war. We managed to avoid that 1945-1990. But you do need to be strong.
Domestically, this should: 1. End the access Farage and co have had to mainstream media outlets. 2. Finish off the flow of Russian money into the Conservative party. 3. Kill off London as a haven for Russian investors. 4. End the careers of all Labour Stop the War apologists. Sadly, the likelihood is that none of this will happen.
Agree on all and on your conclusion. Look at the debate on here yesterday. RT appear to be in clear breach of their license. Calls to have them taken off air get countered with accusations of breaking the law in doing so. Of gagging free speech. Lord Haw Haw isn't broadcasting lies from Moscow on a scratchy radio, he is sat in a studio in London with banking facilities provided by a partially state-owned bank.
Putin has put his regime at risk by launching this attack. The West needs to start thinking about the circumstances in which it would be willing to see him fall from power (obvious benefits, but also a risk of turmoil in the country with the world's largest nuclear arsenal).
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
This all sounds plausible when you put it like that but I'm just trying to think what it means in practice.
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because have a rational fear of nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
The one thing that I think we might have done differently would have been to put 100,000+ NATO troops into Ukraine at some point between 2014 and now, with a willingness to fight in the scenario of this invasion.
I don't see how there is any other way of deterring further expansionism. At some point we have to show that we have the means and the willingness to fight. And, from January 2025 onwards, we have to be prepared to do that without the US.
We are a long way from having the capability, but we have time to do the work and make the changes to be ready.
Over the years - and in different ways - the Conservative party, the Labour party, UKIP, the SNP, Alba and many other prominent political groups have all enabled Putin and his mates. So have a number of UK law and accountancy firms, businesses and other institutions. There should be a reckoning. There won’t be.
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
This all sounds plausible when you put it like that but I'm just trying to think what it means in practice.
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because they have a rational fear of it escalating into nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
Good question. I think we do need to bluntly recognise that (a) this is straightforward aggression by Putin, and appears remarkably stupid and (b) it's not likely that the most balanced and intelligent Western leadership could have prevented it. I'm not inclined to blame Johnson or anyone else in the West at this point.
I hope the dozen Labour MPs who signed the letter against NATO are on their feet complaining about the NATO invasion of the Ukraine. Surely, Young Labour will be arranging a demo at the least?
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
This all sounds plausible when you put it like that but I'm just trying to think what it means in practice.
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because they have a rational fear of it escalating into nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
Good question. I think we do need to bluntly recognise that (a) this is straightforward aggression by Putin, and appears remarkably stupid and (b) it's not likely that the most balanced and intelligent Western leadership could have prevented it. I'm not inclined to blame Johnson or anyone else in the West at this point.
Blame is stupid. Learning lessons fast and changing is essential.
To me, the atrocity of shooting down a commercial airline was amongst the worst.
But what did we do? Bugger all, effectively. We continued to rinse Putin's money.
And that same year our Prime Minister Boris Johnson played tennis with Putin's ex finance minister because his wife donated £160,000 to the Conservative Party.
Many of you tories stink. (Not TSE who seems to have a moral compass). I think you know it deep down too.
And yet the upshot works for Johnson. This war allows Mr Johnson to raise the ghosts of WW2 and Churchill. His own private fantasy can play out publicly in front of us.
He is totally unsuited to his role ahead, he has surrounded himself with equally unsuitable "yes" men and women. A programme for war based on bolstering the Leader's popularity is not optimal. Nonetheless he is lucky, so let's hope fortune shines on him (and indeed on the rest of us).
What has become apparent over the last decade or so is that, for all its problems, Putin's Russia has a far greater degree of self confidence than the west. By contrast the west is mired in confusion, cowardice and self hate. There was nothing more emblematic of this than the Afghanistan debacle, now followed by the invasion of Ukraine. The west is collapsing in the face of illiberal, undemocratic and authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately, there is nothing about NATO that means it will ultimately prevail against this wave of change.
I hate to be depressing, and get as angry about the situation as everyone else; but the reality of this is that not many of us really want to fight Russia, which is why we are where we are in Ukraine.
On the contrary, this is not evidence of self confident Russia, this is evidence of a deeply paranoid and insecure Russia.
My only trip to Russia was to St Petersburg and Moscow for the 2018 World Cup. My boys and I had a great time, and the locals were very welcoming. It wasn't a self confident country though.
The desire for Western consumerism was obvious, and quite the cultural cringe at times. There was a deeply ambivalent attitude to the Soviet period, with great pride in the military. Yesterday was the Russian equivalent to Armistice day, and strange to see Putin laying a wreath at the War memorial that we too had paid our respects to.
But the Russian people have risen up against Putin several times, and at great risk and cost to themselves, and failed. The authority of the Russian state is based in its ability to provide security and promote a coherent sense of belonging and identity. The latter is in strong decline in the west.
This manifests itself in the confidence to undertake military expeditions, which does not exist in the west.
I am not a Putin supporter at all, I make these points to try and explain the prevailing situation. Our cowardice in international affairs is closely linked to cultural confusion and self loathing.
Our Prime Minister, for example, is a compulsive liar, a charlatan and unfit for office. What he is not is a genocidal neo-imperialist maniac.
That's only because Johnson lacks the energy and competence of Putin. He'd like to be just as evil he just doesn't know how and can't be arsed.
This isn't the time for comments like this IMO.
It bloody well is. Putin has played the long game. Throw time and money at destabilising the west so that when he breaks international law in very specific and limited way he isn't facing western countries at the height of their powers. Instead he faces defanged pygmies like Johnson and absolute lunatics like Trump (not in office but clearly still holding power and authority over US politics) and preening peacocks like Macron.
Putin looks at all our leaders and sees them as puny idiots. His assessment - and how that drives his decision making - is absolutely the thing we need to be discussing now. Because unless the west recognises its weak position and does something about it, Putin might think there really are no barriers to retaking the ex Soviet NATO states.
Which would be bad.
This all sounds plausible when you put it like that but I'm just trying to think what it means in practice.
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because they have a rational fear of it escalating into nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
What it means in practice is the attempt to extinguish a democratic nation of 44m people by military force. Should it succeed the country next door to him is then in NATO.
Most of us here have lived our entire lives under the certainties of an international order set up after WWII. If this war of aggression succeeds, then that is quite possibly over. The strategic balance of the Cold War no longer exists, either; a multi polar world is a much less stable place.
I think that we will have cyber attacks today. This could escalate very quickly. The man is mad.
Naval sources tell me that Russian submarines are often around here trying to tap into the comms cables that run across the Channel, and the C5 documentary 'Life on a Warship' included an episode where one was found doing the same with the transatlantic cables. Perhaps we will find out what they have been up to?
The idea that we will impose “devastating” sanctions and Russia will not respond fiercely is for the birds. This is not a weak Middle Eastern country we can hurt with impunity. They will respond.
But we still need to act.
An unpopular point, but I will still make it.
I was repeatedly told that organising something like a League of Nations/United Nations plebiscite in the disputed territories of Luhansk and Donetsk was "impractical" -- even though such plebiscites have repeatedly been organised in disputed areas in time of conflict.
By not doing something reasonably straightforward, we now have a much, much more dangerous situation for everyone.
My own view is that Belarus and Ukraine were always regarded very differently by the Russian leadership than, say, Poland or Bulgaria. The former have lots of Russians in them.
So, Putin won't overrun the former Eastern Bloc countries.
The Baltic states, I really don't know. But in practice, they probably cannot be realistically defended by NATO.
I'm not going to go on about this, and nor will I name names. But I have seen at least one person tell off another for saying it won't happen who were firmly in the "Russia is no threat" gang in the autumn.
Please consider how far behind the curve you were before you complain about others being even further behind.
Crystal clear threat to use nuclear weapons from Putin. Bone-chilling to listen to.
It was always obvious that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were never going to be the only and final victims. Who’ll be No.3?
It does not bear thinking about but never before has our nuclear deterrent been as important
Well it hasn't deterred Putin thus far.
I would say it is totally useless against Putin. Mutually assured nuclear destruction is no threat to someone who doesn't give a ****!
Indeed.
Of the five men who (officially) have their fingers on the nuclear button, only Macron instils confidence. The other 4 are malicious liars, fools, incompetents and shits.
While not unexpected, still rather horrible to wake up to a new war in Europe.
Did you ever expect to write that post?
I did.
David Cameron (pbuh) did warn us all that if Brexit happened the peace we've known in Europe after WWII was at risk.
(I mean he didn't say that but the reaction of Brexiteers was hilarious to the spin Gove put on the speech before it happened.)
There was a foreign country that not only cheered Brexit on, but helped to pay for the campaign. I'll have to check back to see which it was.
Brexit and what Putin has just done have nothing to do with each other.
On the contrary, Putins strategy of fomenting divisions in other countries is longstanding. CheerleadingTrumpism, Le Pen, Orban, Brexit, the troll farms, the support of Wikileaks, the antivax movement, the Ottawa protests etc are all part of a destabilisation campaign. It is one seamless foreign policy.
Also, to those who have been surprised by events who are reaching for the "Putin is mad" trope - I think you are wrong. He certainly wrong and probably evil by any reasonable measure, but that doesn't make him mad.
The nervousness of Putin's cronies on their public display of support on Monday makes a lot more sense now we know the decision to launch a full invasion had already been signed off. The potential consequences of this really are quite scary.
What has become apparent over the last decade or so is that, for all its problems, Putin's Russia has a far greater degree of self confidence than the west. By contrast the west is mired in confusion, cowardice and self hate. There was nothing more emblematic of this than the Afghanistan debacle, now followed by the invasion of Ukraine. The west is collapsing in the face of illiberal, undemocratic and authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately, there is nothing about NATO that means it will ultimately prevail against this wave of change.
I hate to be depressing, and get as angry about the situation as everyone else; but the reality of this is that not many of us really want to fight Russia, which is why we are where we are in Ukraine.
On the contrary, this is not evidence of self confident Russia, this is evidence of a deeply paranoid and insecure Russia.
My only trip to Russia was to St Petersburg and Moscow for the 2018 World Cup. My boys and I had a great time, and the locals were very welcoming. It wasn't a self confident country though.
The desire for Western consumerism was obvious, and quite the cultural cringe at times. There was a deeply ambivalent attitude to the Soviet period, with great pride in the military. Yesterday was the Russian equivalent to Armistice day, and strange to see Putin laying a wreath at the War memorial that we too had paid our respects to.
But the Russian people have risen up against Putin several times, and at great risk and cost to themselves, and failed. The authority of the Russian state is based in its ability to provide security and promote a coherent sense of belonging and identity. The latter is in strong decline in the west.
This manifests itself in the confidence to undertake military expeditions, which does not exist in the west.
I am not a Putin supporter at all, I make these points to try and explain the prevailing situation. Our cowardice in international affairs is closely linked to cultural confusion and self loathing.
But we have had the confidence to undertake military expeditions, rather a lot of them in fact over the last 20 years!
Liberal democracies are slower to react to these challenges, but stronger as a result. Being slow to anger is not a fault, it is a strength.
While the UK is being criticised for not doing enough:
Diplomats tell us following sanctions are tricky: - ITA, AUS, DE concerned abt broad banking-sector sanctions - ITA resistant to sanctions that include railways - ITA wants carve-out for luxury goods - BEL wants carve-out for diamonds + broad reluctance to sanction energy sector
I hope the world of sport reacts strongly. No Russians in the Giro or Tour. No football tournaments. No ice hockey. Ban 100% of Russian competitors, all the way down to junior level. Give them the full South Africa apartheid treatment.
Comments
We have washed dirty money in London and our sanctions are feeble. Rant and rage against Putin (he's an evil man, or is that just he's a man?).
Anything to deflect from the stinking corruption of rinsing Putin's money which has been fostered under this utterly corrupt Conservative Party.
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1496747742906957824
https://twitter.com/SamuelSokol/status/1496748486343102464
There is no settling at this point
https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1496734064593674240
But what did we do? Bugger all, effectively. We continued to rinse Putin's money.
And that same year our Prime Minister Boris Johnson played tennis with Putin's ex finance minister because his wife donated £160,000 to the Conservative Party.
Many of you tories stink. (Not TSE who seems to have a moral compass). I think you know it deep down too.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-admits-he-did-play-160000-tennis-match-with-exrussian-ministers-wife
I hate to be depressing, and get as angry about the situation as everyone else; but the reality of this is that not many of us really want to fight Russia, which is why we are where we are in Ukraine.
1. His poor reputation undermines British diplomacy.
2. He will be big on faux Churchillian rhetoric, but won’t organise logistics.
Shame Tory MPs missed the moment. No doubt folks will say rally around him, which whilst understandable today. will undermine us long term.
The world must act immediately. Future of Europe & the world is at stake. To do list:
1. Devastating sanctions on Russia NOW, including SWIFT
2. Fully isolate Russia by all means, in all formats
3. Weapons, equipment for Ukraine
4. Financial assistance
5. Humanitarian assistance
This conflict is the responsibility of Putin. He is to blame. He's wanted this war for years.
It should be noted that you just wrote a comment which in its entirety was about *our* supposed wrongdoing, as if nothing was happening in Ukraine.
We might be facing mass migrations of populations in the next few weeks and months, whoever 'wins'.
(Hint: no-one 'wins'. Everyone loses. Any victory will by pyrrhic.)
Bizarre.
Three buckets: cyber security, personnel, equipment. On cyber security we seem to have acquiesced to the threat and won't even accept it is real and has already been deployed. If Russia wanted to bring down the national grid or our banking system can we stop them? On personnel do we have the ability to train "we want you" recruits even if we decide to go for it? And then what kit are they to be given - do we have the ability to manufacture more tanks / jets / boats etc?
Chamberlain - for all the criticism - gave us time to rearm. So that when the balloon went up we just about had sufficient resources to repel them. We need a similar period of time, and we need to rearm just as we did back then. I don't want war, but as we have learned repeatedly one way to avoid it is to be prepared for it. And we are not.
1. End the access Farage and co have had to mainstream media outlets.
2. Finish off the flow of Russian money into the Conservative party.
3. Kill off London as a haven for Russian investors.
4. End the careers of all Labour Stop the War apologists.
Sadly, the likelihood is that none of this will happen.
"One of the reasons I was were given for leaving the European Union was that we could do independent sanctions. That's what I was told by the then Foreign Secretary in 2018. Well let's see them."
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1496749388848316416
What will happen is a huge wave of migrants/refugees into the EU.
And then countries will find reasons why they don't want Ukrainian migrants.
Will you be appearing on RT again?
We also have to work out what we need to do to ensure that we can defend the Baltic States even if a Trumpist US withdraws and then do it. We have consistently been behind events, reacting poorly to Putin's actions. It's time that we got ahead of events.
Politics is a game to me. A source of entertainment. Brexit, the great recession, Trump, have had no real bearing on my life.
First time I've had politics hit me in the gut like an exam failure or a break-up.
Germany did well with the surprise Nordstream decision. We now need to surprise Putin in much the same way. Hit Belarus?
https://twitter.com/er1cmau/status/1496753918050975746
That is literally providing succour to Putin. And its far far worse in America where the President in the south declares his continued love for Putin. So yes. Their responsibilities in making the west a neutered mess that Putin can now ignore with impunity.
We can fix all that and turn it around. BDS. But as we propose such measures to even use our existing laws to do so, its banning free speech, its blood and soil racism, its political point scoring.
Either Putin and Russia are the enemy or they are not. What kind of enemy gets to be allowed to broadcast propaganda, to sponsor football tournaments, to rinse billions in dirty money through London, to directly influence our political system? This has to stop. Or we cannot stop Putin.
One thing I do is negotiate deals. You can't successfully do so without fully understanding the counterparty. Their position. Their expectations. Their opinions. "He's evil" isn't remotely enough, especially when you're telling him he isn't evil by continuing to have your society on the hook to him.
Putin has put his regime at risk by launching this attack. The West needs to start thinking about the circumstances in which it would be willing to see him fall from power (obvious benefits, but also a risk of turmoil in the country with the world's largest nuclear arsenal).
7:41 AM · Feb 24, 2022"
https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1496752041741459459
Putin is going to invade the country next door to him which isn't in NATO, and western countries are going to put a load of sanctions on Russia which will cost him a lot of money, which is presumably a price he's willing to pay. But they're not going to go to war to stop him, not least because they have a rational fear of it escalating into nuclear armageddon.
If we imagine the western countries were all united and at the height of their powers and run by sane yet strong leaders, what would the said united western countries be doing differently?
It is horrific and it is Putin and nobody else who is responsible for waging war against innocent, men, women and children
Or the Soviets for the invasion of Afghanistan.
Or the Chinese for the treatment of the Uighurs.
Of course not. Sport only seems to take sanction when political bodies interfere in the admin of sporting adminstrations.
My only trip to Russia was to St Petersburg and Moscow for the 2018 World Cup. My boys and I had a great time, and the locals were very welcoming. It wasn't a self confident country though.
The desire for Western consumerism was obvious, and quite the cultural cringe at times. There was a deeply ambivalent attitude to the Soviet period, with great pride in the military. Yesterday was the Russian equivalent to Armistice day, and strange to see Putin laying a wreath at the War memorial that we too had paid our respects to.
I have the sense that NATO will soon be tested, and it may well disappoint people.
But we still need to act.
David Cameron (pbuh) did warn us all that if Brexit happened the peace we've known in Europe after WWII was at risk.
(I mean he didn't say that but the reaction of Brexiteers was hilarious to the spin Gove put on the speech before it happened.)
We can't even do the basics.
I don't see how there is any other way of deterring further expansionism. At some point we have to show that we have the means and the willingness to fight. And, from January 2025 onwards, we have to be prepared to do that without the US.
We are a long way from having the capability, but we have time to do the work and make the changes to be ready.
It was always obvious that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were never going to be the only and final victims. Who’ll be No.3?
He is totally unsuited to his role ahead, he has surrounded himself with equally unsuitable "yes" men and women. A programme for war based on bolstering the Leader's popularity is not optimal. Nonetheless he is lucky, so let's hope fortune shines on him (and indeed on the rest of us).
This manifests itself in the confidence to undertake military expeditions, which does not exist in the west.
I am not a Putin supporter at all, I make these points to try and explain the prevailing situation. Our cowardice in international affairs is closely linked to cultural confusion and self loathing.
Who’d’ve thunk it?
I would say it is totally useless against Putin. Mutually assured nuclear destruction is no threat to someone who doesn't give a ****!
Most of us here have lived our entire lives under the certainties of an international order set up after WWII. If this war of aggression succeeds, then that is quite possibly over.
The strategic balance of the Cold War no longer exists, either; a multi polar world is a much less stable place.
I was repeatedly told that organising something like a League of Nations/United Nations plebiscite in the disputed territories of Luhansk and Donetsk was "impractical" -- even though such plebiscites have repeatedly been organised in disputed areas in time of conflict.
By not doing something reasonably straightforward, we now have a much, much more dangerous situation for everyone.
My own view is that Belarus and Ukraine were always regarded very differently by the Russian leadership than, say, Poland or Bulgaria. The former have lots of Russians in them.
So, Putin won't overrun the former Eastern Bloc countries.
The Baltic states, I really don't know. But in practice, they probably cannot be realistically defended by NATO.
Please consider how far behind the curve you were before you complain about others being even further behind.
Of the five men who (officially) have their fingers on the nuclear button, only Macron instils confidence. The other 4 are malicious liars, fools, incompetents and shits.
I feel like crying.
It will eventually present a buying opportunity.
Cash is a depreciating asset. Unless you can beat inflation.
@DPJHodges
For all the robust language, we've basically woken up in 1938 this morning. Ukraine is Czechoslovakia. Appeasement has failed again."
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1496759209181908993
Liberal democracies are slower to react to these challenges, but stronger as a result. Being slow to anger is not a fault, it is a strength.
Diplomats tell us following sanctions are tricky:
- ITA, AUS, DE concerned abt broad banking-sector sanctions
- ITA resistant to sanctions that include railways
- ITA wants carve-out for luxury goods
- BEL wants carve-out for diamonds
+ broad reluctance to sanction energy sector
https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1496758467943866374