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Betting on a Conservative poll lead before the first of March – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited March 2022 in General
imageBetting on a Conservative poll lead before the first of March – politicalbetting.com

One of the many good things Smarkets have done is regularly have a market up on opinion poll leads. With eight days left in February I can just about understand these odds but my inclination is to back a Conservative lead this month.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    Anything is possible if Putin opts for war.
  • Options
    Oh, and first.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    edited February 2022
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    I'm not saying TSE is wrong but we did have an identical thread to this in November, just before Labour began posting double digit leads.

    So if these quarterly threads are anything to go by we should be betting on Labour to go back into double digits :wink:

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/11/21/why-boris-johnson-and-the-tories-may-soon-experience-a-surge-in-the-polls/
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    An extremely niche question - but I'm trying to work out whether France has an equivalent to the British marked register (when you vote in the UK, your name is marked on a copy of the electoral register. This copy is then saved by the local authority and made available for political parties to purchase). Does anyone know if this is the case, or if there is a better place to ask? Google is being very unhelpful.
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    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047
    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Didn't Swinney do the FM job, or lead the SNP for a wheel and make a bit of a bog of it? Or have I mis-remembered?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904
    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047

    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Didn't Swinney do the FM job, or lead the SNP for a wheel and make a bit of a bog of it? Or have I mis-remembered?
    Predictive text made the wheel come on. Should have read 'for a while'.
    Must remember that proof-reading is essential, for me anyway, before hitting 'Post'!
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Didn't Swinney do the FM job, or lead the SNP for a wheel and make a bit of a bog of it? Or have I mis-remembered?
    He was SNP leader for four years between Salmond's terms. They lost about a quarter of their seats in 2003 and he had to resign the following year after he said 'tell the Brits to get off.'

    He was also a dismal Education Secretary who was rather fortunate that Gavin Williamson helpfully stepped into every single elephant trap his mistakes had flagged up, rather diverting attention from him.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Yes, there are weather warnings out for today and tomorrow, even if it won't be as bad as last week.
  • Options
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JohnL, aye, rainy and 40mph winds here. Which is as bad as it's been, but obviously way lighter than many other places had it.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,047
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Didn't Swinney do the FM job, or lead the SNP for a wheel and make a bit of a bog of it? Or have I mis-remembered?
    He was SNP leader for four years between Salmond's terms. They lost about a quarter of their seats in 2003 and he had to resign the following year after he said 'tell the Brits to get off.'

    He was also a dismal Education Secretary who was rather fortunate that Gavin Williamson helpfully stepped into every single elephant trap his mistakes had flagged up, rather diverting attention from him.
    So predictive text was right, and the wheel did come off during his leadership?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    - ”If we see a Conservative poll lead this month then it might keep Boris Johnson in office for the rest of the parliament.”

    In that case, time for Smarkets or AN Other to put up a market on next Scottish Conservative leader, because Douglas Ross’s jaiket is on a shooglie peg.

    Apart from his enmity with the Prime Minister, he’s doing a dire job of challenging the First Minister and her team:

    Best prices - Next First Minister

    Angus Robertson (SNP) 5/2
    Kate Forbes (SNP) 8/1
    John Swinney (SNP) 9/1
    Humza Yousaf (SNP) 10/1
    Joanna Cherry (SNP) 16/1
    Anas Sarwar (SLab) 16/1
    Keith Brown (SNP) 17/1
    Douglas Ross (SCon) 18/1

    John Swinney and Humza Yousaf third and fourth favourites?

    And I thought Welsh politics had a dearth of talent…
    Morning all. Still blowy, and one wouldn't call it bright and spring like either.

    Didn't Swinney do the FM job, or lead the SNP for a wheel and make a bit of a bog of it? Or have I mis-remembered?
    He was SNP leader for four years between Salmond's terms. They lost about a quarter of their seats in 2003 and he had to resign the following year after he said 'tell the Brits to get off.'

    He was also a dismal Education Secretary who was rather fortunate that Gavin Williamson helpfully stepped into every single elephant trap his mistakes had flagged up, rather diverting attention from him.
    So predictive text was right, and the wheel did come off during his leadership?
    In more ways than one...
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,670
    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.
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    Mr. kjh, yikes.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Good luck
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    In Raab's case, only if he can find a working phone.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Grim. I hope your house is OK at least.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,294
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Hope you can get it all sorted and your house is okay.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    Of course, Farage’s crude poster wasn’t my cup of tea, nor many other people’s.

    The issue was the Remain side then going really hard on it, saying it was a lie, complete rubbish, disgusting that you even suggest it might be happening, oh and by the way we’re having a summit on Turkish membership of the EU next week.
  • Options
    The Turkey situation is a quite good example of why pro-EU politicians here greatly aided the cause of those who wanted us to leave.

    There was an understanding Turkey would never join, because Greece would say no, meaning the UK and others didn't really have to do anything. But they ostensibly supported Turkey joining at some point. Then grew annoyed with this was pointed out during the campaign.

    Too clever by half.
  • Options
    Scotland's most senior councillor ditches Labour to stand as independent election candidate

    Evison did not mention Labour’s opposition to indyref2 as a reason for her departure, but she has backed a second referendum.

    She wrote in 2019: “It’s straightforward to me: democracy must be at the core of all we do.

    “Recently it has become fragile and we must strengthen it again.

    “We can strengthen it by enabling the voice of Scotland to be heard through its formal processes and that must mean a referendum on independence.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotlands-most-senior-councillor-ditches-26272283
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    Yep it's pathetic to behold
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Nightmare. Good luck. Sounds like an insurance case.

    I have many mature trees in and around our garden with complex ownership/liability issues. Some are very tall and close to the building. I was observing them on Friday with great anxiety. I've concluded the ones close to the house must come down. We took down a lime tree that was annoying the neighbour a couple of years ago and the cost was £1200, that was 3 people and 1 days work, with a truck and industrial sized chipper. I guess these people will be busy for the next few months.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    Kjh sorry to hear that. Hope you can recover as much as possible from the wreckage and the tidy up goes okay.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Oh crap. Good luck getting everything sorted and hope there isn’t too much damage. Whatever you do, don’t risk being under a half-fallen tree, have the insurance company send a lumberjack out, even if there’s a bit of a wait at the moment.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    Yep it's pathetic to behold
    Far better just to roll over and allow Putin to occupy and oppress million of other people.

    All in the name of peace, of course.

    Your position is shameful and pathetic to behold.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336

    The Turkey situation is a quite good example of why pro-EU politicians here greatly aided the cause of those who wanted us to leave.

    There was an understanding Turkey would never join, because Greece would say no, meaning the UK and others didn't really have to do anything. But they ostensibly supported Turkey joining at some point. Then grew annoyed with this was pointed out during the campaign.

    Too clever by half.

    They were stuffed by Turkey.

    Their sauce bread contempt.

    Their problems sprouted from Brussels.

    The whole thing was a plum pudding (that's enough - Ed).
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    Yep it's pathetic to behold
    Far better just to roll over and allow Putin to occupy and oppress million of other people.

    All in the name of peace, of course.

    Your position is shameful and pathetic to behold.
    No I don't go in for bellicose macho posturing.

    World peace is generally maintained when we don't play global moral crusaders. The last time the US-UK did it, on the pretext of false intelligence, lies and the desire to remove a dictator we managed to destabilise the world for at least a century.

    So, yes, I'm afraid you have to look at the bigger picture. Drop the global moralising and focus closer to home e.g. our disgraceful facilitation of Russian money and property laundering in the UK.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    edited February 2022
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting, if I'm honest. She's hardly going to say, 'it's bollocks to think Ireland will ever reunite so we should make the best of it.' It's always been Sinn Fein policy to reunite Ireland eventually, it's only the timing they're uncertain about. 'Senior Sinn Fein MLA restates commitment to United Ireland and asks government to be ready for it' is the equivalent of Nicola Sturgeon saying 'I think Scotland should have another referendum.'

    Had it been a senior Unionist politician that would have been a very different matter. But paradoxically the thought of a government in the Republic led by Sinn Fein will probably make them less likely to say it.

    Edited because she's not an MP.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    But StillWaters I think the other point you missed, or chose to ignore, was that we were commenting specifically on Boris Johnson's blatantly obvious attempts to raise WWII rhetoric and channel the spirit of Churchill.

    Which has bugger all to do with whether he cares about Ukrainian skins and everything to do with his own skin.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    I am relieved to see that the "Brexit is over, don't mention it ever again" crew are persisting with their whining that the resultant shitshow is due to those people who didn't want it, campaign for it or vote for it.

    You won!

    Suck it up.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    I voted remain but was not particularly aggrieved by the 'Turkey' situation. Even if Cameron would have vetoed Turkey joining the EU, there is no guarantee that a future UK government would take the same approach. It drew attention to a problem that the UK government was not on the whole trusted on matters relating to the remit of the EU, as it had continuously ceded powers to the EU, without consulting the electorate. Brexit was ultimately the responsibility of the UK government policy and the decisions it took from around 1990-2016, where fundamental constitutional change took place without consultation with the people, most notably resulting in mass immigration from accession countries which a large group of people didn't want. That the establishment was ultimately kicked in the teeth over this was no surprise, and quite enjoyable to watch, even though I still think it wasn't the right decision.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    It was just another example of the arrogant stupidity of remainers and indeed their friends and allies in Brussels. As an example of we will do what we want, we will create our own reality and your views don't count it was irresistable.

    Anyway, these arguments are now ancient history. Today's problem is Ukraine. It is not looking good.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    edited February 2022
    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    Yep it's pathetic to behold
    You have the interesting prospect of Truss, the great Thatchrite statesman attempting to outshine Johnson, the great Churchillian statesman. Personally, I think Liz is on a hiding to nothing

    I suspect TSE is correct in the header and the polls tighten in the event of a Ukrainian invasion. Lots of photo opportunities with military hardware and heads of state await.

    Partygate. What gate? Big Dog is saved. Can't say I'm pleased, but any yet to be seen pictures of Johnson downing lockdown yards of ale and dancing the Conga, should they exist, all look rather trivial (even though that should not be the case- he appears to have mislead Parliament) now, in the grand scheme of things. Johnson is indeed a lucky General. Let us hope the rest of us are as lucky too.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Here's the stupidest picture in my recent memory. It's dumb on many levels, but I fear it says something about H Saps.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    edited February 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting
    The difference now is that there's a fair chance she is about to become first minister.

    If you don't find the current situation in Northern Ireland interesting then fair enough but most people who have studied the province and its troubles for the past 70 years will not agree with you. And the prospect of a Sinn Fein first minister is ... well, wow.

  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    Seeing as this is a betting site would you have backed Turkey to join the EU by say 2025 at 5/1? 10/1? 25/1?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,670
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Oh crap. Good luck getting everything sorted and hope there isn’t too much damage. Whatever you do, don’t risk being under a half-fallen tree, have the insurance company send a lumberjack out, even if there’s a bit of a wait at the moment.
    Thanks for that advice. I had already thought about trying to get to the shed and then decided it was far too dangerous. Unless they prop the tree over the shed up when they cut it the shed will become matchwood (if it isn't already).
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,296
    Wes streeting appears to be getting fat. Definite chubbier face (on Trevor Phillips now).
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797
    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    There is nothing inevitable about this. The Irish government will proceed with extreme caution. This is mainly because of money, due to the general economic situation in Northern Ireland. And they are probably also reluctant to inherit a large protestant population who would not accept the situation, and who have a long history of violence. I would guess that the ambiguous position of Northern Ireland will just continue to evolve without reunification.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    This Matthew Parris piece suggests @BorisJohnson will trigger Article 16 if the Met Police report proves to be a problem for @10DowningStreet. Not at all my basecase - & unclear how well informed the speculation is. But worrying all the same

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/06252a12-90f1-11ec-8d28-50e05b644342?shareToken=00ce42c823d3bf0e4b9e16dddcb1bd81
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting
    The difference now is that there's a fair chance she is about to become first minister.

    If you don't find the current situation in Northern Ireland interesting then fair enough but most people who have studied the province and its troubles for the past 70 years will not agree with you. And the prospect of a Sinn Fein first minister is ... well, wow.

    I tend to get "off topiced" by a particular Unionist poster when I throw my tuppence into the Northern Ireland hat, but I don't think Stormont sits with the prospect of Michelle O'Neill as FM.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,792
    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Sounds as though your house is safe (?), but sad news for what sound like rather splendid trees on your property. As others have said, don’t be tempted to investigate too closely, and leave it to the professionals.

    And don’t argue with the enormous neighbours.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    Heathener said:

    But StillWaters I think the other point you missed, or chose to ignore, was that we were commenting specifically on Boris Johnson's blatantly obvious attempts to raise WWII rhetoric and channel the spirit of Churchill.

    Which has bugger all to do with whether he cares about Ukrainian skins and everything to do with his own skin.

    Do you still think that Putin isn't going to invade and that this is all a feint?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why is Boris ramping war and linking again to WW2?

    "We shall fight on the beaches..."
    Yep it's pathetic to behold
    You have the interesting prospect of Truss, the great Thatchrite statesman attempting to outshine Johnson, the great Churchillian statesman. Personally, I think Liz is on a hiding to nothing

    I suspect TSE is correct in the header and the polls tighten in the event of a Ukrainian invasion. Lots of photo opportunities with military hardware and heads of state await.

    Partygate. What gate? Big Dog is saved. Can't say I'm pleased, but any yet to be seen pictures of Johnson downing lockdown yards of ale and dancing the Conga, should they exist, all look rather trivial (even though that should not be the case- he appears to have mislead Parliament) now, in the grand scheme of things. Johnson is indeed a lucky General. Let us hope the rest of us are as lucky too.
    It may well come down to whether Cummo has anything that can prove that the liar hasn't been 100% truthful in filling in his Met Police questionnaire
  • Options
    Toms said:

    Here's the stupidest picture in my recent memory. It's dumb on many levels, but I fear it says something about H Saps.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html

    Hitchens calls Liz Truss a lefty liberal, and has a pop at army cuts:-

    Now, as we posture as the defenders of Europe against a much-touted Russian threat which may or may not exist, Britain has a mere 227 Challenger tanks and is busy reducing its Army from 82,000 personnel – already a record low in modern times – to 73,000.

    If we really believed the speeches we made, would we actually be cutting our Armed Forces as we are?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    edited February 2022
    BBC showing a Public Information Film (older PB'ers will remember them from our youth?) telling people to open the window.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,336
    edited February 2022
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting
    The difference now is that there's a fair chance she is about to become first minister.

    If you don't find the current situation in Northern Ireland interesting then fair enough but most people who have studied the province and its troubles for the past 70 years will not agree with you. And the prospect of a Sinn Fein first minister is ... well, wow.

    Anyone who has followed it sufficiently closely to note demographic changes and the divisions among the Unionists will be much less than surprised. In fact, they would regard Sinn Fein topping the poll at some point as more or less inevitable. Whether power sharing will function or whether the DUP will have (another) ejection of toys from many prams at that point is another question.

    But just as Salmond's majority in 2011 did not lead to an independent Scotland, so a Sinn Fein FM or for the matter of that a Sinn Fein Taoiseach (which also seems very likely) does not inevitably mean a reunited Ireland.

    I repeat, 'politician repeats founding principles of party' is neither surprising nor interesting.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338

    Heathener said:

    But StillWaters I think the other point you missed, or chose to ignore, was that we were commenting specifically on Boris Johnson's blatantly obvious attempts to raise WWII rhetoric and channel the spirit of Churchill.

    Which has bugger all to do with whether he cares about Ukrainian skins and everything to do with his own skin.

    Do you still think that Putin isn't going to invade and that this is all a feint?
    Correct.

    As you may recall I've suggested he might opt for limited incursions but I still think his aim is to force concessions.

    But I may be wrong. If I am then at least I got one storm right :wink:
  • Options

    Wes streeting appears to be getting fat. Definite chubbier face (on Trevor Phillips now).

    That's a common problem for people who have had cancer isn't it?

    Rapid weight losses and gains.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    IanB2 said:

    It may well come down to whether Cummo has anything that can prove that the liar hasn't been 100% truthful in filling in his Met Police questionnaire

    Minister on TV this morning says it doesn't matter
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,296
    IanB2 said:

    BBC showing a Public Information Film (older PB'ers will remember them from our youth?) telling people to open the window.

    This is living with Covid. Personal responsibility. Removing legal mask mandates hasn’t stopped people wearing masks. I hope and expect that in future people with disease symptoms will isolate. If you have a snotty nose and cough, wear a mask.
    But isolating when not ill? No more please.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,793
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    It was just another example of the arrogant stupidity of remainers and indeed their friends and allies in Brussels. As an example of we will do what we want, we will create our own reality and your views don't count it was irresistable.

    Anyway, these arguments are now ancient history. Today's problem is Ukraine. It is not looking good.
    Replaced by the arrogant stupidity of Leavers, who see everything via the prism of WW2.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Heathener said:

    But StillWaters I think the other point you missed, or chose to ignore, was that we were commenting specifically on Boris Johnson's blatantly obvious attempts to raise WWII rhetoric and channel the spirit of Churchill.

    Which has bugger all to do with whether he cares about Ukrainian skins and everything to do with his own skin.

    Do you still think that Putin isn't going to invade and that this is all a feint?
    It can't be ruled out
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,797

    Toms said:

    Here's the stupidest picture in my recent memory. It's dumb on many levels, but I fear it says something about H Saps.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html

    Hitchens calls Liz Truss a lefty liberal, and has a pop at army cuts:-

    Now, as we posture as the defenders of Europe against a much-touted Russian threat which may or may not exist, Britain has a mere 227 Challenger tanks and is busy reducing its Army from 82,000 personnel – already a record low in modern times – to 73,000.

    If we really believed the speeches we made, would we actually be cutting our Armed Forces as we are?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html
    "I note there is also an official drive to double the number of women in the British Army and to ‘tackle its male-dominated culture’. Well, such quotas usually lead to a lowering of physical standards, and, as most women aren’t especially keen on being soldiers, the main outcome is that more weedy men can join up.

    I can promise you that the Russian Army continues to have a ‘male-dominated culture’, to put it gently, and does not plan to tackle it any time soon, and I am concerned about what might happen if our feminist forces ever actually clash with it."
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    It was just another example of the arrogant stupidity of remainers and indeed their friends and allies in Brussels. As an example of we will do what we want, we will create our own reality and your views don't count it was irresistable.

    Anyway, these arguments are now ancient history. Today's problem is Ukraine. It is not looking good.
    Please don't insult me as a Remainer. I didn't set the date of the EUReferendum, I would have taken George Osborne's advice that promising an EU Referendum was fraught with danger. I wouldn't have contradicted myself by attacking the EU for the twelve months prior to the EU Referendum before becoming the standard bearer for Remain. I would not have run such a negative, half-hearted and unconvincing campaign. Don't blame me, blame the gentleman currently counting his Greensill shares.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited February 2022
    I am not expecting a Conservative lead anytime soon. Boris has cut the Labour lead from about 10%+ last month after partygate to about 5% now. However that has mainly come from the Tories rallying their core vote through the ending of Covid restrictions, requiring teachers to be neutral in the classroom etc which has bought back some RefUK voters and DKs to the Conservatives.

    However the Conservatives are still no higher than 34% in any poll ie still lower than the Tory voteshare at any general election since 2005 and Labour at 37% or over are still at least 5% up on their 2019 total and polling higher than they have at any general election since 2001 apart from 2017. Indeed Comres have Labour on 41% still ie even higher than the 40% they got in 2017. The halving of Labour's lead might be enough for Boris to save his leadership and premiership for now and for a few Tory MPs to save their seats, it is still not enough for the Tories to be re elected however and keep their majority

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,296

    Wes streeting appears to be getting fat. Definite chubbier face (on Trevor Phillips now).

    That's a common problem for people who have had cancer isn't it?

    Rapid weight losses and gains.
    After 5 weeks on hospital food plus chemotherapy I lost three stone. Sadly return to nice food, coupled with taste buds recovering, meant it all came back.
    In Streetings case it just struck me today that he suddenly looked a lot fatter.
  • Options
    Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    On the other hand, a vacuum cleaner might be ideal to clear up the messes this government is making, both figuratively and literally after each party.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to quit if he receives a FPN over partygate, says James Cleverly

    “I don’t think what the country needs right now is a vacuum at the centre of government"

    Tory MPs I spoke to this week believe a FPN would trigger 54 letters


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/fpn-boris-johnson-leadership-crisis-conservative-party
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    There is nothing inevitable about this. The Irish government will proceed with extreme caution. This is mainly because of money, due to the general economic situation in Northern Ireland. And they are probably also reluctant to inherit a large protestant population who would not accept the situation, and who have a long history of violence. I would guess that the ambiguous position of Northern Ireland will just continue to evolve without reunification.
    Apart from the point that the Catholic population is growing in the north relative to the Protestant one, I think the canvas was totally torn up when Johnson threw NI under the bus. Brexit has totally changed the landscape. Not only are many in the north utterly pissed off with the tories, they are utterly pissed off with the DUP for getting into bed with the dishonest liar in No.10.

    Sinn Fein are in the ascendancy and, yes, I do see them having a first minister. What's really interesting at the moment is that both SF and the DUP are calling for the people to have their say in an early election. I'm not sure how long Brandon Lewis can hold this off and the more he does, the more it will make everyone in the north from whatever background angry with London.

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,296
    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    I’d buy you thesis a bit more if we were the only country doing this. Did I imagine Macron meeting Putin? Did I imagine Biden?
    I think your hatred is colouring your judgement. Sometimes people do stuff for the right reasons.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Who had 'not a time for a change' on their bingo card?

    Its the classic phony catch 22 - if theres no crisis no need to change leaders; if there is a crisis too risky to change leaders.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    The Sunday Rawnsley:

    Britain is not unfamiliar with scandals of political and royal varieties, but this combination goes to the apex of the state in a way without precedent. We have the prime minister and the [an? ed] heir to the throne involved in investigations by the Metropolitan police, itself so poisoned with scandal that Dame Cressida Dick has been forced to quit as commissioner of the Met. This is happening at a time when the reputations of many other estates of the realm are severely corroded.

    These multiple crises in multiple institutions have features in common. One overarching theme is a paucity of high-calibre personnel. Where are the leaders with the quality and strength of character to infuse the organisations they head with decent values? The Johnson government was guaranteed to be engulfed in opprobrium from the moment that Tory MPs decided to give the premiership to an amoral man. The Queen commands huge public respect, but she is notoriously reluctant to confront issues within her family.

    Other shared characteristics of dysfunctional institutions are hostility to legitimate criticism, an unwillingness to acknowledge mistakes and a resistance to being held accountable. All these were factors in the Post Office scandal.

    The political scientist David Runciman identified another pathology of sickly institutions when he wrote that degeneration is often sourced in “a growing sense of impunity among small networks of elites. As British society has become more unequal it has created pockets of privilege whose inhabitants are tempted to think that the normal rules don’t apply to them.” He wrote that eight years ago and it rings even truer today.

    Once upon a time, Britons would have been astonished and appalled to find scandal simultaneously bespoiling their royal family, prime minister and largest police force. We are less shockable now. Where once jaws would have dropped, grotesque misconduct in public life often provokes no more than a fleeting furore or a resigned shrug. That makes us part of the problem, too. When we expect to be let down, we settle for further decay. The British won’t get better service from their institutions until they start demanding it and so insistently that they can’t be ignored.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    HYUFD said:

    I am not expecting a Conservative lead anytime soon. Boris has cut the Labour lead from about 10%+ last month after partygate to about 5% now. However that has mainly come from the Tories rallying their core vote through the ending of Covid restrictions, requiring teachers to be neutral in the classroom etc which has bought back some RefUK voters and DKs to the Conservatives.

    However the Conservatives are still no higher than 34% in any poll ie still lower than the Tory voteshare at any general election since 2005 and Labour at 37% or over are still at least 5% up on their 2019 total and polling higher than they have at any general election since 2001 apart from 2017. The halving of Labour's lead might be enough for Boris to save his leadership and premiership for now, it is still not enough for the Tories to be re elected however

    Johnson realises Putin offers him an opportunity. At such time people feel most comfortable with the familiar. If this situation escalates even further, as seems highly likely, Johnson's star ascends. If Putin decided to step back from the brink, Johnson claims credit. It all has to be very much to Johnson's advantage. Don't you think?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    Seeing as this is a betting site would you have backed Turkey to join the EU by say 2025 at 5/1? 10/1? 25/1?
    Not without some huge sea-change regarding Cyprus. Probably a sea-change that sank it into the Med....
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    It was just another example of the arrogant stupidity of remainers and indeed their friends and allies in Brussels. As an example of we will do what we want, we will create our own reality and your views don't count it was irresistable.

    Anyway, these arguments are now ancient history. Today's problem is Ukraine. It is not looking good.
    Please don't insult me as a Remainer. I didn't set the date of the EUReferendum, I would have taken George Osborne's advice that promising an EU Referendum was fraught with danger. I wouldn't have contradicted myself by attacking the EU for the twelve months prior to the EU Referendum before becoming the standard bearer for Remain. I would not have run such a negative, half-hearted and unconvincing campaign. Don't blame me, blame the gentleman currently counting his Greensill shares.
    It's a completely fair point. I certainly was not having a go at all remainers. It was their leadership that was inept. Many, many remainers clearly believed that the UK's best interests were served by being an important player in the EU as it grew to statehood. Some stll do.

    I was ambivalent. I did nothing to campaign for vote leave. It was a complicated question with good arguments on both sides. But those in Brussels seemed determined not to help the remain campaign here, that is for sure.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,793
    darkage said:

    Toms said:

    Here's the stupidest picture in my recent memory. It's dumb on many levels, but I fear it says something about H Saps.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html

    Hitchens calls Liz Truss a lefty liberal, and has a pop at army cuts:-

    Now, as we posture as the defenders of Europe against a much-touted Russian threat which may or may not exist, Britain has a mere 227 Challenger tanks and is busy reducing its Army from 82,000 personnel – already a record low in modern times – to 73,000.

    If we really believed the speeches we made, would we actually be cutting our Armed Forces as we are?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10275333/PETER-HITCHENS-Posing-one-tanks-Liz-Truss-not-Iron-Lady.html
    "I note there is also an official drive to double the number of women in the British Army and to ‘tackle its male-dominated culture’. Well, such quotas usually lead to a lowering of physical standards, and, as most women aren’t especially keen on being soldiers, the main outcome is that more weedy men can join up.

    I can promise you that the Russian Army continues to have a ‘male-dominated culture’, to put it gently, and does not plan to tackle it any time soon, and I am concerned about what might happen if our feminist forces ever actually clash with it."
    Considering the recruitment and retention problems of the forces, recruiting from a wider population pool seems wise. In many technical branches brute strength is not the key performance.

    Worth noting that the male dominated army hasn't had a great track record in recent times.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    He has not created this situation. Whatever his own response that remains true, and more relevant than getting about quotes and photos.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    edited February 2022
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting
    The difference now is that there's a fair chance she is about to become first minister.

    If you don't find the current situation in Northern Ireland interesting then fair enough but most people who have studied the province and its troubles for the past 70 years will not agree with you. And the prospect of a Sinn Fein first minister is ... well, wow.

    The latest Northern Ireland Stormont polling has SF on just 23% ie clearly below the 27% they got in 2017. The only reason they might come first is the DUP have fallen even further from 28% in 2017 to 19% now as they have leaked votes to TUV, who are still on 6% despite a small DUP recovery from their nadir of 13% last summer.

    The combined Unionist vote of the DUP, UUP and TUV however is 39% still clearly ahead of the combined Nationalist vote of SF and SDLP of 32%. So the Unionists will still comfortably win most MLAs under the PR STV system Stormont uses and vote down a border poll
    https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2022/02/14/news/new-opinion-poll-puts-sinn-fe-in-in-pole-position-2588053/
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,793

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    Seeing as this is a betting site would you have backed Turkey to join the EU by say 2025 at 5/1? 10/1? 25/1?
    Not without some huge sea-change regarding Cyprus. Probably a sea-change that sank it into the Med....
    So you are saying that Turkey will never join?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    I’d buy you thesis a bit more if we were the only country doing this. Did I imagine Macron meeting Putin? Did I imagine Biden?
    I think your hatred is colouring your judgement. Sometimes people do stuff for the right reasons.
    Exactly, Boris is not to blame for this crisis. And nor is he taking advantage of it, in my eyes. He seems to be acting quite properly (for once).
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    kjh said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    Retuned home from Southwold to carnage. Two enormous neighbours firs have fallen into my garden. One has sheered through an ancient ash taking off a branch the size of most trees. The other has fallen into our Walnut tree (another huge tree taller than our house) Half the Walnut tree is devastated but it is holding the fir up which may or may not be useful as underneath it is a large shed, 3 water butts, wood store, wheel barrows etc and in the shed is a motor mower and all my hedge cutting power tools. I have no idea if any of this still exists or smashed to bits.

    Oh crap. Good luck getting everything sorted and hope there isn’t too much damage. Whatever you do, don’t risk being under a half-fallen tree, have the insurance company send a lumberjack out, even if there’s a bit of a wait at the moment.
    Thanks for that advice. I had already thought about trying to get to the shed and then decided it was far too dangerous. Unless they prop the tree over the shed up when they cut it the shed will become matchwood (if it isn't already).
    Good to hear. Sadly, we’ll probably hear of fatalities caused by such secondary accidents in the coming days, a combination of frustration with delays and thinking that it’s no longer dangerous as the storm has passed. Definitely something best left to the professionals with the right cutting and strapping equipment. If the contents of the shed are worth more than the cost of getting a crane to hold up the tree while they empty it out…
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    I’d buy you thesis a bit more if we were the only country doing this. Did I imagine Macron meeting Putin? Did I imagine Biden?
    I think your hatred is colouring your judgement. Sometimes people do stuff for the right reasons.
    Biden having screwed up Afghanistan and Macron with a tight election around the corner are in the same boat. Germany, having had an election, and with more direct issues on their doorstep in the event of a Ukrainian invasion is more circumspect
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a moral vacuum at the centre of government, but here we are anyway.
    Yes, if Cleverly didn't want a vacuum at the centre of government, he should have been cleverly enough not to have put him there.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NeilVW said:

    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Not Sunak nor Truss.

    Mordaunt looks a better bet.

    Definitely a value bet.
    I think this is pb at work. I really like Penny which for a leftie like me is saying something.

    And that's why I don't think she will get it. She's far too pleasant. Too much in touch with the common people. Too with it. Too savvy.

    This isn't me being snide. It's because the people who elect the next Conservative leader are 1. Tory MPs and 2. Conservative Members.

    If it was the public, or pb.com, very different story.

    Oh and tory MPs are pretty misogynistic. After what they deem the nightmare of Theresa May (I thought she was okay) I don't believe they will elect another woman for a long time.
    Frankly, you have no idea about the Conservative Party! We had a woman as Conservative leader in 1975. 47 years on, after two, the Labour Party still hasn't had one. You really want to talk misogyny in political parties?
    Not only have they not had one, but no woman has ever beaten any man in any Labour leadership election.

    It seems scarcely believable when put that way.
    Not when you look at the calibre of those involved.

    As a woman let me be the first to say that this shouldn't be about tokenism and I don't think it's the place of men to call out misogynism.

    I think Rachel Reeves looks a really good prospect. I personally really like Angela Rayner but she would be too gobby for the right wing media.

    Penny Mordaunt would make a great Labour leader in the Keir Starmer real politik.
    I found this on Penny Mordaunt "Passionate Brexiteer Mordaunt has committed one major political gaffe, when she wrongly claimed Britain would not be able to veto Turkey joining the EU, which got her a furious dressing-down from then boss Mr Cameron".

    We need another lying Prime Minister like a hole in the head
    Considering Britain was one of the leading countries advocating Turkish accession, its not remotely plausible that Britain would veto Turkey joining after advocating it for a long time period.

    That's why the Turkish thing was able to cut through: Cameron was on the record as saying Turkey should join the EU, then suddenly people think Leavers were lying as saying Turkey could. Funny that.
    It's all moot. There's no way France would let Turkey in.
    More of an issue with Greece, wasn’t there?
    The reality is:

    (a) the Turks don't really want to join
    (b) the Europeans don't really want them to join
    (c) The Greeks and Cypriots would never let them join

    But there has always been this fiction that the EU membership was on the table, which is a relic of the Cold War, when the EEC was all powerful in Europe and Turkey was even poorer.
    This is all political interpretation and judgment. The reality is that Turkey was formally in the process for joining the EU. It is therefore accurate to say they were joining the EU. The idea this is a "lie" is completely ridiculous and showed the Remainer bias of the media. Meanwhile the BBC repeatedly claimed the EU was the biggest trading bloc in the world, even though NAFTA was 20% bigger. I complained to the BBC multiple times over this and they kept coming back with ridiculous arguments like citing the EU's press releases stating they were the biggest. That just shows the BBC complaints process is a bunch of biased hacks.
    I'm not sure what the second part of your answer is about... But the first is clearly rubbish.

    Anyone can apply to join the EU.

    But actual accession requires a treaty signed by all members. Anyone can veto.

    There has never been any serious likelihood of Turkey joining the EU.

    Edit to add:

    It is clearly not a lie to point out that Turkey is - and was - an EU membership applicant.

    But is is also not a lie to note that Turkey became a membership candidate before Cyprus became an EU state. Which - even ignoring the fact that Turkish membership would be extremely unpopular in 28 out of 28 EU countries - would veto Turkish membership of the EU.

    Indeed, Turkey could not technically join the EU right now, because it does not even recognise the government of Cyprus and therefore could not enter into a treaty with it.
    Watching David Cameron try and deny that Turkey was joining the EU, when there was a summit on Turkish membership of the EU two days before the referendum, was rather amusing.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682306/EU-referendum-Brexit-Turkey-membership-talks-European-Union

    That summit followed up on another summit three months earlier, which was picked up by the Leave side.
    So, yes, Turkey was in the process of joining. But no, it wasn't going to join any time soon, or without becoming a very different place.

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true, thunderingly misleading, and impossible to clarify in a three word slogan.

    All's fair in love, war and democratic politics, and it helped get the result, but it's not really a message to be proud of, or amused at.
    "So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically true"

    So saying "Turkey is joining" is technically not a lie either.

    Turkey was exploring the possibilities of joining. The EU were exploring the possibilities of Turkey joining. There was rather more to it than saying I am exploring how to spend my Euromillions jackpot win.

    As ever, it is less painful for Remainers to continually explore how their opponents beat them than consider how they still bankrupted their casino when the roulette wheel was fixed and the cards marked....

    *Remainers chose the date of the Referendum
    *Remainers chose the question of the Referendum
    *Remainers had Govt. supplied and paid for propaganda sent to every house in the land
    *Remainers had every major political party saying Vote Remain

    Yet, the questionable of status of Turkey's application to join the EU lost it for you. Titter....
    Seeing as this is a betting site would you have backed Turkey to join the EU by say 2025 at 5/1? 10/1? 25/1?
    Not without some huge sea-change regarding Cyprus. Probably a sea-change that sank it into the Med....
    So you are saying that Turkey will never join?
    Well obviously not, since the EU is on the brink of collapse anyway. Or was that another lie? Hard to keep track.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    Sometimes people do stuff for the right reasons.

    When you discover as big a shit as Johnson you realise that there is nothing he does that doesn't involve thinking all about himself. I sussed this with him quite a while back. So did most people on here. And increasingly so are the British public.

    It's why HYUFD is correct. Under Boris Johnson the tories will not win a majority.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Meanwhile, I posted this yesterday but Michelle O'Neill's interview with Sky News is interesting. She's urging the Irish Government to prepare for a united Ireland.

    Ever since Boris Johnson threw the north under his Brexit bus, the dye was cast for a united Ireland. It's just a question of when.

    Which raises the intriguing prospect for rejoiners who wish to be EU citizens that if they live in the north then even without Irish ancestry they might be carried back into the EU.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sinn-fein-deputy-leader-michelle-oneill-urges-irish-government-to-prepare-for-a-united-ireland-12545895

    I don't think that's terribly surprising or interesting
    The difference now is that there's a fair chance she is about to become first minister.

    If you don't find the current situation in Northern Ireland interesting then fair enough but most people who have studied the province and its troubles for the past 70 years will not agree with you. And the prospect of a Sinn Fein first minister is ... well, wow.

    Anyone who has followed it sufficiently closely to note demographic changes and the divisions among the Unionists will be much less than surprised. In fact, they would regard Sinn Fein topping the poll at some point as more or less inevitable. Whether power sharing will function or whether the DUP will have (another) ejection of toys from many prams at that point is another question.

    But just as Salmond's majority in 2011 did not lead to an independent Scotland, so a Sinn Fein FM or for the matter of that a Sinn Fein Taoiseach (which also seems very likely) does not inevitably mean a reunited Ireland.

    I repeat, 'politician repeats founding principles of party' is neither surprising nor interesting.
    Its not inevitable, and people are very lazy about portraying it that way or as a simple case of of course an island should be unified in one country (an argument not generally made one island over by the same people), but those two happenings are at least symbolic and the lack of interest and emotion from rUK about the area probably makes it more likely.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a moral vacuum at the centre of government, but here we are anyway.
    Yes, if Cleverly didn't want a vacuum at the centre of government, he should have been cleverly enough not to have put him there.
    A braverman would have behaved differently.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,143
    Farooq said:

    And nor is he taking advantage of it, in my eyes. He seems to be acting quite properly (for once).

    He is arguing that breaking a law is not a resigning matter during this crisis

    If that is not taking advantage I am not sure what is
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    edited February 2022

    Wes streeting appears to be getting fat. Definite chubbier face (on Trevor Phillips now).

    That's a common problem for people who have had cancer isn't it?

    Rapid weight losses and gains.
    He's on the BBC now, and doesn't look fatter to me. Maybe turbo's screen settings are making things wider?

    He could do with calming down a little, tho. Permanent shouty agitation doesn't come across well.
  • Options

    Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election.

    I'm not sure. First, I've long expected Boris to resign before the next election, especially if there is a risk he loses. Paradoxically, attempts to force him out might have made that less likely.

    But Boris is not out of the woods yet. As Donald Trump discovered with several judgments against him last week, dangers can converge from several directions. For Boris, partygate lingers on with the Gray report and Met Police investigations running; wallpapergate seems dead; cash for honours is concentrated on the Prince of Wales but can surely spread; the closely-related cash for access lurks in the Sunday papers; Brexit and the Northern Ireland protocol are unresolved; levelling up is merely a slogan; prices are up; taxes are up; and he might have lied to parliament.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    Which is precisely the point of ramping up the Ukraine response. Masses of photo ops, pictures on tanks, tons of overseas trips, bellicose blowing on his horn, spirit of Churchill, World War II, World War III, gravest situation since 1945, nuclear threat on London ... etc. etc. etc. etc.

    Johnson will stop at nothing to save his own skin
    Sometimes people do stuff for the right reasons.

    When you discover as big a shit as Johnson you realise that there is nothing he does that doesn't involve thinking all about himself. I sussed this with him quite a while back. So did most people on here. And increasingly so are the British public.

    It's why HYUFD is correct. Under Boris Johnson the tories will not win a majority.
    They probably won't win another majority under Sunak either, though they might still win most seats
  • Options
    Mr. Observer, it's that possibility that made me opt to back Starmer as next PM when he was... 12. Even the 8 he is now is value. Sunak way too short.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,793
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson shouldn't have to resign if he receives a fixed penalty notice for breaching his coronavirus laws, James Cleverly tells @RidgeOnSunday: “I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a vacuum at the centre of government.”
    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1495320446702694400

    I don’t think what the country needs at the moment is a moral vacuum at the centre of government, but here we are anyway.
    Good piece today from Rawnsley. It isn't just our government that is a moral vacuum, but all our major institutions. The culture of an elite who can behave with impunity and cover up for each other is a characteristic of all our power structures.

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1495316097855275011?t=3fzFHJcjDRnW7m0k64plvA&s=19
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,338
    Scott_xP said:

    Farooq said:

    And nor is he taking advantage of it, in my eyes. He seems to be acting quite properly (for once).

    He is arguing that breaking a law is not a resigning matter during this crisis

    If that is not taking advantage I am not sure what is
    Indeed!

    I assure everyone that Boris Johnson will be silently hoping, praying even, that Putin invades Ukraine.

    Appalling but undeniably the case.
This discussion has been closed.