Starmer has to defang Brexit as an election issue, because he has to win over some of the 84% of Tory 2019 voters who agree with his latest statement.
His hope will be that he can keep irreconcilable Remainers on board by promising to cooperate with Europe, rather than grandstand and pick fights.
Yes, I'm an Rejoiner in principle and might have said "No" too to that very hardline statement that there is "no case", but I do see that of course we're not going to rejoin in the next Parliament, and Starmer absolutely has to nail that down. I think most Rejoiners will feel the same way.
I see he's going to make a speech definitively distancing himself from previous manifestos and commitments net week, which will no doubt annoy some of us Corbynites further, but to be honest the same applies there. If Starmer said "We might still renationalise water" I wouldn't believe it, and I'd rather he was honest about what we will do without trying to flirt with all sides.
The CLP has a guest talk from John McDonnell on Thursday (we are eclectic - had Jess Phillips recently putting a no-nonsense centrist view). Will be interesting to see what he makes of it.
There is no money to renationalise anything. Starmer may well be battling a full blown currency crisis if he wins in 2024.
Couldn't you just renationalise the railways by letting the franchises lapse?
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
Status quo is not implausible, its extremely plausible.
People may like to gripe and grumble but there's no overwhelming evidence of people wanting a change or to refight Brexit debates. Sheer inertia leads to the status quo being the default.
That only a plurality, not even a majority, think that Brexit is a mistake let alone want to reverse it means that inertia will rule the roost for many years to come - and as time goes on people will forget about Brexit and look to other fights of the future instead of the old ones of the past.
No, the current arrangement is a foot stamping on a human face for ever. It will have to be radically revised sooner or later. The market forces and the will of the people will see to that.
The longer we are out the more difficult it will be to convince people to rejoin, especially if we are members of the CPTPP which seems increasingly likely
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
Its been self-evident for a long-time that you really support RefUK and not the Conservatives, even if you won't admit it yet.
Doesn't mean the rest of us want to join in with those loons, but on current polls RefUK would win 0 seats under many forms of PR since they wouldn't even reach the threshold to be entitled to any seats under systems like Germany's PR.
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
Status quo is not implausible, its extremely plausible.
People may like to gripe and grumble but there's no overwhelming evidence of people wanting a change or to refight Brexit debates. Sheer inertia leads to the status quo being the default.
That only a plurality, not even a majority, think that Brexit is a mistake let alone want to reverse it means that inertia will rule the roost for many years to come - and as time goes on people will forget about Brexit and look to other fights of the future instead of the old ones of the past.
They appear to want a change from the unflushable Mr Brexit.
We haven't had any significant queues at holiday airports yet.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You supported Britain remaining in the EEA during the referendum, which needless to say is a much weaker form of Brexit than the TCA.
That's a result of the EU's behaviour towards us since leaving. Going back into the EEA would now put us at their mercy, a position I wouldn't want us to ever be in. There is no doubt that the EU would use it's executive power to enact hostile regulations just to fuck us over.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
Some progress there, I think, young HY. Keep going.....
Starmer has to defang Brexit as an election issue, because he has to win over some of the 84% of Tory 2019 voters who agree with his latest statement.
His hope will be that he can keep irreconcilable Remainers on board by promising to cooperate with Europe, rather than grandstand and pick fights.
Yes, I'm an Rejoiner in principle and might have said "No" too to that very hardline statement that there is "no case", but I do see that of course we're not going to rejoin in the next Parliament, and Starmer absolutely has to nail that down. I think most Rejoiners will feel the same way.
I see he's going to make a speech definitively distancing himself from previous manifestos and commitments net week, which will no doubt annoy some of us Corbynites further, but to be honest the same applies there. If Starmer said "We might still renationalise water" I wouldn't believe it, and I'd rather he was honest about what we will do without trying to flirt with all sides.
The CLP has a guest talk from John McDonnell on Thursday (we are eclectic - had Jess Phillips recently putting a no-nonsense centrist view). Will be interesting to see what he makes of it.
There is no money to renationalise anything. Starmer may well be battling a full blown currency crisis if he wins in 2024.
Couldn't you just renationalise the railways by letting the franchises lapse?
Isn't that pretty much the present government's policy?
The very mixed messages in the local elections, for the Conservatives at least, must be making it very tricky for those Tory MPs wondering if they should put in a letter. It might yet get even more confusing for these Bears of Very Little Brain. The results in May might not be too bad (given they are mostly not the strongest Tory areas, so not too many seats to lose) and were truly awful last time because it was the height of Theresa May's kicking by the voters.
But the national polling picture may still be awful because, well, Boris. These MPs might need even longer to think about it....
There are two sides to the equation, of course. "Can Boris bounce back?" and "Could Keir catch a cold?" Chances of the latter would be improved by a revival of Nellism. All eyes on Erdington for a pointer.
Now I have lost four of the ridge tiles from the top of the house, which are smashed all over the road.
Better get on to the insurers pronto, to get the assessor booked before you get stuck in the backlog.
Good advice; they are however already swamped, as you envisaged, and are only accepting emergency claims right now. There’s authority to go ahead with up to £2000 of weather related damage without waiting, but that may not be enough. Anyhow the whole island is being hit so god knows how long it will take to get a builder.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
FPTP is an anachronism. How does anyone even start to put together an argument in it's favour? The normal one is "Oh it gives stable government". Like feck it does! The constituency boundaries are ludicrous and bear no relationship to anything. It is essentially a con trick on the electorate by the two dominant parties.
Now I have lost four of the ridge tiles from the top of the house, which are smashed all over the road.
Better get on to the insurers pronto, to get the assessor booked before you get stuck in the backlog.
Good advice; they are however already swamped, as you envisaged, and are only accepting emergency claims right now. There’s authority to go ahead with up to £2000 of weather related damage without waiting, but that may not be enough. Anyhow the whole island is being hit so god knows how long it will take to get a builder.
Be prepared to pay top dollar. There are still fences and trees down here from Arwen. Traders can take their pick of work. Commiserations.
Eunice is an interesting name for a storm that gives a good blow.
I wonder if there will ever be one called Monica?
Have we had a storm C*rrie?
Or on a grand old Duke of admitting no liability theme, Storm Sarah. I believe as a chalet girl she had the nickname Lollipop for a very specific reason.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
FPTP is an anachronism. How does anyone even start to put together an argument in it's favour? The normal one is "Oh it gives stable government". Like feck it does! The constituency boundaries are ludicrous and bear no relationship to anything. It is essentially a con trick on the electorate by the two dominant parties.
It’s for those who wish to change the status quo, to make their case in favour of the change.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
FPTP is an anachronism. How does anyone even start to put together an argument in it's favour? The normal one is "Oh it gives stable government". Like feck it does! The constituency boundaries are ludicrous and bear no relationship to anything. It is essentially a con trick on the electorate by the two dominant parties.
For electing a local representative, there is nothing wrong with "most votes wins".
But it's the right policy. What's he supposed to do - put up a bad policy and try to justify something he doesn't believe in?
Those who imagine we are rejoining the EU are deluded. The EU wouldn't let us back in, and even if they did it would be on much worse terms than we previously enjoyed.
It's over. Forget it. Starmer is right to move the Party on.
Indeed and as time goes on we're only going to diverge further and further from the EU.
We are now in the final phase of trade talks for accession to the CPTPP, which once we join would be a larger trade bloc than even the European Union which would no longer be even in the top 3 trade zones in the world anymore. Plus the CPTPP is much faster growing and has more growth potential too.
To rejoin the EU would mean not just reversing our decision (and convincing them to let us back in) but accepting much worse terms and also reversing all the benefits we accrue from divergence as time goes on.
As time goes on, we’re only going to converge closer and closer with the EU because all the arguments about free trade and reducing red tape with our nearest neighbours still apply. The Leavers promised we’d be in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey, business wants that, the electorate want it too, so I imagine we will gravitate towards that.
Eunice is an interesting name for a storm that gives a good blow.
I wonder if there will ever be one called Monica?
Have we had a storm C*rrie?
I guess there must have been somewhere. Let's face it Carrie was the name of a 1976 horror movie.
Then, of course there was the surprisingly quite good "Carrie doesn't live here anymore" by Cliff Richard. Hopefully that is a song number 10 staff might be singing in a few weeks time.
But it's the right policy. What's he supposed to do - put up a bad policy and try to justify something he doesn't believe in?
Those who imagine we are rejoining the EU are deluded. The EU wouldn't let us back in, and even if they did it would be on much worse terms than we previously enjoyed.
It's over. Forget it. Starmer is right to move the Party on.
Indeed and as time goes on we're only going to diverge further and further from the EU.
We are now in the final phase of trade talks for accession to the CPTPP, which once we join would be a larger trade bloc than even the European Union which would no longer be even in the top 3 trade zones in the world anymore. Plus the CPTPP is much faster growing and has more growth potential too.
To rejoin the EU would mean not just reversing our decision (and convincing them to let us back in) but accepting much worse terms and also reversing all the benefits we accrue from divergence as time goes on.
As time goes on, we’re only going to converge closer and closer with the EU because all the arguments about free trade and reducing red tape with our nearest neighbours still apply. The Leavers promised we’d be in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey, business wants that, the electorate want it too, so I imagine we will gravitate towards that.
Not necessarily, the cost of reducing friction is too high. The EU wants to bind the UK into forever alignment which the government has correctly refused. As it stands the trade friction with the EU has a lower cost than what it would take to reduce it. It would take the EU to move toward not requiring alignment for us to reduce friction, which may happen but probably not for a few years.
The very mixed messages in the local elections, for the Conservatives at least, must be making it very tricky for those Tory MPs wondering if they should put in a letter. It might yet get even more confusing for these Bears of Very Little Brain. The results in May might not be too bad (given they are mostly not the strongest Tory areas, so not too many seats to lose) and were truly awful last time because it was the height of Theresa May's kicking by the voters.
But the national polling picture may still be awful because, well, Boris. These MPs might need even longer to think about it....
Except the national polling picture is not awful. Labour has just a 5% poll lead in the latest poll today,. that is far closer than the true nadir of Tory fortunes in 1997 and 2001
Yes really mixed picture I think. Johnson is probably only toast if the Tories do really badly in the West Midlands in places like Dudley in May, where Labour is now in a much weaker position than 2012.
The only really concerning result for the Tories last night was probably the Oundle by election as a large chunk of those LD voters could vote Labour in Corby constituency a GE.
I agree with Burgessian that the Tories are likely to hold up well in Scotland and it's easy to see how the Tories can exceed expectations in London.
I don't expect more than 5-10% Labour lead for the foreseeable future but we will see what happens. It's an interesting paradox for Starmer in that he does need to do better in real elections but the polling is good for him in that he doesn't want the Tories to do too badly.
But it's the right policy. What's he supposed to do - put up a bad policy and try to justify something he doesn't believe in?
Those who imagine we are rejoining the EU are deluded. The EU wouldn't let us back in, and even if they did it would be on much worse terms than we previously enjoyed.
It's over. Forget it. Starmer is right to move the Party on.
Indeed and as time goes on we're only going to diverge further and further from the EU.
We are now in the final phase of trade talks for accession to the CPTPP, which once we join would be a larger trade bloc than even the European Union which would no longer be even in the top 3 trade zones in the world anymore. Plus the CPTPP is much faster growing and has more growth potential too.
To rejoin the EU would mean not just reversing our decision (and convincing them to let us back in) but accepting much worse terms and also reversing all the benefits we accrue from divergence as time goes on.
As time goes on, we’re only going to converge closer and closer with the EU because all the arguments about free trade and reducing red tape with our nearest neighbours still apply. The Leavers promised we’d be in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey, business wants that, the electorate want it too, so I imagine we will gravitate towards that.
You are aware that we have applied to join CPTPP and it is looking promising and even possible in the next 12 - 18 months
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
The best that I think we can hope to achieve in the short term is two things:
1. Knock some of the hard corners off. Little details here and there that have a disproportionate impact, where we can reach technical agreements with the EU.
2. Sort ourselves out. The UK was in a mess, with serious long-term problems in all sorts of areas in 2016, and these have mostly got worse in the past six years. If we can make any sort of progress on Education, Housing, Productivity, etc, then I think we'd achieve a lot more than any amount of angst about our relationship with the EU.
In or Out, these were problems caused by mistakes in Britain that require solutions in Britain. Brexit has primarily been a massive waste of time.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
Its been self-evident for a long-time that you really support RefUK and not the Conservatives, even if you won't admit it yet.
Doesn't mean the rest of us want to join in with those loons, but on current polls RefUK would win 0 seats under many forms of PR since they wouldn't even reach the threshold to be entitled to any seats under systems like Germany's PR.
However I do not support RefUK no. I voted Remain in 2016 (though I respected the result), you voted Leave. I did not vote for Farage in the European elections unlike you in Spring 2019 but for May's Tories and I accepted with reluctance the NI rise to fund the NHS post Covid, you and Tice and Max opposed the NI rise.
You were also generally pretty anti Covid restrictions, also a RefUK issue. So I can assure you you are more likely to vote RefUK than me. Just if you had PR it would not be a wasted vote, same as Green voters outside Brighton would not find their vote a wasted vote either or LD voters outside a handful of constituencies would not see their vote wasted as well
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
Who knows? (My previous post on this topic was pointing out an alternative way of viewing things rather than a prediction.) My guess (hope?) is a Switzerland option: not quite in the EEA, endless haggling over the headline stuff that voters notice, but in practice close cooperation on day-to-day stuff.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
FPTP is an anachronism. How does anyone even start to put together an argument in it's favour? The normal one is "Oh it gives stable government". Like feck it does! The constituency boundaries are ludicrous and bear no relationship to anything. It is essentially a con trick on the electorate by the two dominant parties.
Two dominant parties do their political work in the open air before an election and offer the voters a choice of programmes. Multi-parties campaign for a variety of special issues then cook up a deal behind closed doors afterwards.
But it's the right policy. What's he supposed to do - put up a bad policy and try to justify something he doesn't believe in?
Those who imagine we are rejoining the EU are deluded. The EU wouldn't let us back in, and even if they did it would be on much worse terms than we previously enjoyed.
It's over. Forget it. Starmer is right to move the Party on.
Indeed and as time goes on we're only going to diverge further and further from the EU.
We are now in the final phase of trade talks for accession to the CPTPP, which once we join would be a larger trade bloc than even the European Union which would no longer be even in the top 3 trade zones in the world anymore. Plus the CPTPP is much faster growing and has more growth potential too.
To rejoin the EU would mean not just reversing our decision (and convincing them to let us back in) but accepting much worse terms and also reversing all the benefits we accrue from divergence as time goes on.
As time goes on, we’re only going to converge closer and closer with the EU because all the arguments about free trade and reducing red tape with our nearest neighbours still apply. The Leavers promised we’d be in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey, business wants that, the electorate want it too, so I imagine we will gravitate towards that.
You are aware that we have applied to join CPTPP and it is looking promising and even possible in the next 12 - 18 months
I suspect the only tangible benefit of that will be to allow Liz to do another foreign photoshoot in a silly hat.
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Given how rubbish the BBC is now at big state occasions, wouldn't be surprised if a YouTube stream with a few historians will be more popular for London Bridge than the official coverage.
But it's the right policy. What's he supposed to do - put up a bad policy and try to justify something he doesn't believe in?
Those who imagine we are rejoining the EU are deluded. The EU wouldn't let us back in, and even if they did it would be on much worse terms than we previously enjoyed.
It's over. Forget it. Starmer is right to move the Party on.
Indeed and as time goes on we're only going to diverge further and further from the EU.
We are now in the final phase of trade talks for accession to the CPTPP, which once we join would be a larger trade bloc than even the European Union which would no longer be even in the top 3 trade zones in the world anymore. Plus the CPTPP is much faster growing and has more growth potential too.
To rejoin the EU would mean not just reversing our decision (and convincing them to let us back in) but accepting much worse terms and also reversing all the benefits we accrue from divergence as time goes on.
As time goes on, we’re only going to converge closer and closer with the EU because all the arguments about free trade and reducing red tape with our nearest neighbours still apply. The Leavers promised we’d be in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey, business wants that, the electorate want it too, so I imagine we will gravitate towards that.
You are aware that we have applied to join CPTPP and it is looking promising and even possible in the next 12 - 18 months
I suspect the only tangible benefit of that will be to allow Liz to do another foreign photoshoot in a silly hat.
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Why do we think they were going so hard for Joe Rogan and Spotify?
MSM are losing out to new media, citizen journalists, and people with interesting jobs and hobbies - and don’t know what to do about it!
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Why do we think they were going so hard for Joe Rogan and Spotify?
MSM are losing out to new media, citizen journalists, and people with interesting jobs and hobbies - and don’t know what to do about it!
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
Who knows? (My previous post on this topic was pointing out an alternative way of viewing things rather than a prediction.) My guess (hope?) is a Switzerland option: not quite in the EEA, endless haggling over the headline stuff that voters notice, but in practice close cooperation on day-to-day stuff.
That looks like it's where Starmer is heading. I'm not convinced that it works, but it's a sensible next step which is enough to see out his putative Premiership.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
FPTP is an anachronism. How does anyone even start to put together an argument in it's favour? The normal one is "Oh it gives stable government". Like feck it does! The constituency boundaries are ludicrous and bear no relationship to anything. It is essentially a con trick on the electorate by the two dominant parties.
Two dominant parties do their political work in the open air before an election and offer the voters a choice of programmes. Multi-parties campaign for a variety of special issues then cook up a deal behind closed doors afterwards.
Yet not even that always applies now.
In 2 out of 4 of the last general elections under FPTP we have had hung parliaments, with the Tories and LDs in 2010 and the Tories and DUP in 2017 cooking up deals behind closed doors afterwards.
Current polls show we will have a hung parliament most likely at the next general election too, probably with Labour this time cooking up the deals with the SNP or LDs
There's that Sherlock Holmes line about "eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Utter tosh outside the puzzle piece world of detective fiction. The trouble the UK has is that pretty much every option looks, if not impossible, implausible.
Staus quo is implausible- a hefty majority think Brexit is going badly, a comfy plurality think it's a mistake, a significant minority would rejoin tomorrow given a chance. In democratic politics (unlike family mis-planning), we seek to reverse mistakes.
A Brexit on top of the Brexit is implausible- it does nothing to solve the actual problems.
Full-fat rejoin is implausible- partly because of Schengen and the Euro, partly because of the mutual lack of trust, partly because Brexit is all some Boomers have achieved in their lives and they are desperate to protect their legacy.
EEA, even EEA-alike, is implausible- it's one thing for Norway (population 5 million) to give up its direct political input to have more independent action. The idea that the UK (population 70 million) could do the same and not experience it as an embarassment is for the birds. Whatever it is, it's not Taking Back Control.
And yet, once the Hannan fantasy of the UK leading some other like-minded nations out of the EU (with the UK leading, natch), those are basically the full spectrum of options. All of them are implausible to impossible, and yet one of them (or something like them) has to happen next.
Status quo is not implausible, its extremely plausible.
People may like to gripe and grumble but there's no overwhelming evidence of people wanting a change or to refight Brexit debates. Sheer inertia leads to the status quo being the default.
That only a plurality, not even a majority, think that Brexit is a mistake let alone want to reverse it means that inertia will rule the roost for many years to come - and as time goes on people will forget about Brexit and look to other fights of the future instead of the old ones of the past.
Status quo is unsustainable on so many levels: 1 Border Operating Model doesn't work. And thats before we impose the rest of it 2 Customs division of GB and NI politically impossible. 3 Cost and red tape imposition making British business less competitive is politically unsustainable.
So we will end up having to make changes. You are a big "trigger Article 16" advocate - which would force a change to the status quo.
I have three red lines when it comes to the next election.
1. Not going to vote for Boris in any way, shape or form. 2. Won't vote for a party that tries to dilute the TCA or move closer to the EU or rejoin. 3. Won't vote for a party that doesn't support women's rights properly.
I don't know who will fit that bill.
You look a perfect voter for Tice's ReformUK party, it ticks all 3 boxes!
Yet that seems extremely unlikely.
Well stop complaining then, there is a party that meets your criteria so you can't complain you don't have any choice. RefUK even opposed the NI rise you also were against
Tice's joke of a 'party' is not a real party to anyone but you it seems. As much as you try and big them up.
My thinking is very much along the lines of Max's too, on all 4 of his point (including the 3 plus not RefUK).
It would be if we had PR, even on current polls RefUK would win about 30-40 seats with PR.
If you and Max support FPTP don't whinge when you only get a choice of Labour or Tory in the vast majority of seats, if we had PR you would have a much wider choice of parties to support who could win seats.
I have always been agnostic on PR, I even voted for AV in the referendum on voting reform in 2011, I am not a FPTP diehard
Its been self-evident for a long-time that you really support RefUK and not the Conservatives, even if you won't admit it yet.
Doesn't mean the rest of us want to join in with those loons, but on current polls RefUK would win 0 seats under many forms of PR since they wouldn't even reach the threshold to be entitled to any seats under systems like Germany's PR.
However I do not support RefUK no. I voted Remain in 2016 (though I respected the result), you voted Leave. I did not vote for Farage in the European elections unlike you in Spring 2019 but for May's Tories and I accepted with reluctance the NI rise to fund the NHS post Covid, you and Tice and Max opposed the NI rise.
You were also generally pretty anti Covid restrictions, also a RefUK issue. So I can assure you you are more likely to vote RefUK than me. Just if you had PR it would not be a wasted vote, same as Green voters outside Brighton would not find their vote a wasted vote either or LD voters outside a handful of constituencies would not see their vote wasted as well
I never voted for Farage, as I've said before I voted to expel Farage from the European Parliament not elect him to it. If you can't understand the difference, you're wilfully thick and never will.
However as much as you big up Tice's loons I will never vote for them. It doesn't matter how many issues they have in similar with me, no "party" that is willing to cozy up with antivaxxers is ever going to get my vote.
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
I did step outside briefly abotu 1/2 hour ago to check some damage, and its the first time in my life I've ever been physically pushed back by a gust of wind. Scary! Bloke came by to shore up the scaffolding outside, just clamered up no worries (albeit its lighter now)
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Anyone else remember the Jeremy Vine disaster for the local elections, way back?
At about 3am in the morning in the election count, J. Vine was prancing around the studio in a weird cowboy outfit. The program basically failed to announce the actual results. The BBC claimed, when people complained, that they were trying to be inclusive....
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
It's a pretty impressive concert venue. Guessing you don't like it just because it was New Labour? I mean it was vacuous Blair vanity at the time but certainly isn't now.
I think it would be a shame to dismantle everything about Cool Britannia. It was the last occasion when Britain had anything Great about it. All downhill since.
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
We cannot even get agreement from parliamentarians to stop parliament falling to bits while they work in it, can't say I have much more confidence in someone properly demolishing and replacing that site.
Mr. kle4, mildly surprised to hear that. I've had to struggle to stay on my feet a few times over the years, and got blown into the air (only a little) once. Less than delightful.
I did step outside briefly abotu 1/2 hour ago to check some damage, and its the first time in my life I've ever been physically pushed back by a gust of wind. Scary! Block came by to shore up the scaffolding outside, just clamered up no worries (albeit its lighter now)
I was walking down from Skegness to Gibraltar Point along the beach in a strong southerly. Progress was very difficult, but worse, sand was being blown up into my eyes. Not a very pleasant experience.
I also once saw a bird flying backwards through a beallach in Scotland during a gale. I was hoping my tent pegs were secure....
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Why do we think they were going so hard for Joe Rogan and Spotify?
MSM are losing out to new media, citizen journalists, and people with interesting jobs and hobbies - and don’t know what to do about it!
LOL at the plane spotter guy taking calls from mainstream media, who appear to be wanting him to drop what he’s doing - with 185,000 watching - to speak to them!
Yup - this where the future lies. MSM is screwed unless they start employing people like him freelance.
Why do we think they were going so hard for Joe Rogan and Spotify?
MSM are losing out to new media, citizen journalists, and people with interesting jobs and hobbies - and don’t know what to do about it!
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
It's a pretty impressive concert venue. Guessing you don't like it just because it was New Labour? I mean it was vacuous Blair vanity at the time but certainly isn't now.
I think it would be a shame to dismantle everything about Cool Britannia. It was the last occasion when Britain had anything Great about it. All downhill since.
PMSL.
So that joke of a site is more "Great" than the 2012 Olympics to name a more recent example?
Mr. kle4, mildly surprised to hear that. I've had to struggle to stay on my feet a few times over the years, and got blown into the air (only a little) once. Less than delightful.
Well, I'm dumpy and quite close to the ground, so that might help.
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
We cannot even get agreement from parliamentarians to stop parliament falling to bits while they work in it, can't say I have much more confidence in someone properly demolishing and replacing that site.
Sad that the dome is taking a battering, but relieved that Eunice decided to wait until after I went there last weekend.
Anyway, that venue brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. Unlike the Palace of Westminster. And I wouldn't like to bet which of the two buildings will remaining standing for the longest, at the rate things are going.
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
It's a pretty impressive concert venue. Guessing you don't like it just because it was New Labour? I mean it was vacuous Blair vanity at the time but certainly isn't now.
I think it would be a shame to dismantle everything about Cool Britannia. It was the last occasion when Britain had anything Great about it. All downhill since.
PMSL.
So that joke of a site is more "Great" than the 2012 Olympics to name a more recent example?
You're a joke.
Come on Philip. Is that kind of aggression really necessary? The 02 is an amazing concert venue. I doubt from your post that you've ever been.
I think the Olympics was amazing. Not a venue as such but amazing. That was also a Cool Britannia outcome and owed a huge amount to Tessa Jowell amongst others (whatever Boris tried to claim).
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
It's a pretty impressive concert venue. Guessing you don't like it just because it was New Labour? I mean it was vacuous Blair vanity at the time but certainly isn't now.
I think it would be a shame to dismantle everything about Cool Britannia. It was the last occasion when Britain had anything Great about it. All downhill since.
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
We cannot even get agreement from parliamentarians to stop parliament falling to bits while they work in it, can't say I have much more confidence in someone properly demolishing and replacing that site.
Sad that the dome is taking a battering, but relieved that Eunice decided to wait until after I went there last weekend.
Anyway, that venue brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. Unlike the Palace of Westminster. And I wouldn't like to bet which of the two buildings will remaining standing for the longest, at the rate things are going.
I love the Houses of Parliament and consider it a globally iconic structure that must be preserved ideally as a working parliament, but it does seem to have been put together pretty shoddily, as the bulk of it is not very old.
Brilliant that a guy with a camcorder, microphone, humongous battery and equally humongous data plan, sitting in a field in Hatton, has a quarter of a million people watching him on a stormy day.
You'd end up going from an intact eyesore to a dilapidated eyesore, hardly an improvement.
Demolish it and build something useful on the site.
We cannot even get agreement from parliamentarians to stop parliament falling to bits while they work in it, can't say I have much more confidence in someone properly demolishing and replacing that site.
Anyway, that venue brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. .
Sure does.
Philip seems like one of those zealots who can't believe anything good can come from those of opposing politics. Ironic really because as I wrote I personally think the original millennium exhibition was vacuous. But what they then made of it as a concert venue was fantastic. Seen some great shows there and I know so many others who have.
I particularly love the Jubilee line link straight in and you can take the boat too, even after a concert which is really cool.
Brilliant that a guy with a camcorder, microphone, humongous battery and equally humongous data plan, sitting in a field in Hatton, has a quarter of a million people watching him on a stormy day.
Give people what they want - amazing that nobody else had thought of it!
Comments
Doesn't mean the rest of us want to join in with those loons, but on current polls RefUK would win 0 seats under many forms of PR since they wouldn't even reach the threshold to be entitled to any seats under systems like Germany's PR.
Thankfully we don't have PR though, so its moot.
Commiserations.
I believe as a chalet girl she had the nickname Lollipop for a very specific reason.
Time to make like a jumble sale for the neighnbours.
Roof tiles ... £5 a tile that matches. All to charity.
Then, of course there was the surprisingly quite good "Carrie doesn't live here anymore" by Cliff Richard. Hopefully that is a song number 10 staff might be singing in a few weeks time.
It would be impossible for an independent Scotland to join the euro without first establishing its own currency.
The euro can only be adopted via ERM II. Obviously sterling cannot join ERM II.
https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1494626337331556355?s=21
The only really concerning result for the Tories last night was probably the Oundle by election as a large chunk of those LD voters could vote Labour in Corby constituency a GE.
I agree with Burgessian that the Tories are likely to hold up well in Scotland and it's easy to see how the Tories can exceed expectations in London.
I don't expect more than 5-10% Labour lead for the foreseeable future but we will see what happens. It's an interesting paradox for Starmer in that he does need to do better in real elections but the polling is good for him in that he doesn't want the Tories to do too badly.
1. Knock some of the hard corners off. Little details here and there that have a disproportionate impact, where we can reach technical agreements with the EU.
2. Sort ourselves out. The UK was in a mess, with serious long-term problems in all sorts of areas in 2016, and these have mostly got worse in the past six years. If we can make any sort of progress on Education, Housing, Productivity, etc, then I think we'd achieve a lot more than any amount of angst about our relationship with the EU.
In or Out, these were problems caused by mistakes in Britain that require solutions in Britain. Brexit has primarily been a massive waste of time.
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/7za8e4puku/TheTimes_VI_211220_W.pdf
However I do not support RefUK no. I voted Remain in 2016 (though I respected the result), you voted Leave. I did not vote for Farage in the European elections unlike you in Spring 2019 but for May's Tories and I accepted with reluctance the NI rise to fund the NHS post Covid, you and Tice and Max opposed the NI rise.
You were also generally pretty anti Covid restrictions, also a RefUK issue. So I can assure you you are more likely to vote RefUK than me. Just if you had PR it would not be a wasted vote, same as Green voters outside Brighton would not find their vote a wasted vote either or LD voters outside a handful of constituencies would not see their vote wasted as well
https://twitter.com/RobinFlavell/status/1494654594647040005
MSM are losing out to new media, citizen journalists, and people with interesting jobs and hobbies - and don’t know what to do about it!
https://www.flightradar24.com/SVA112/2adc4074
An example - If you want to know about space flight, go to https://www.nasaspaceflight.com
Started by an interested amateur. Now has insane levels of access to the industry.
In 2 out of 4 of the last general elections under FPTP we have had hung parliaments, with the Tories and LDs in 2010 and the Tories and DUP in 2017 cooking up deals behind closed doors afterwards.
Current polls show we will have a hung parliament most likely at the next general election too, probably with Labour this time cooking up the deals with the SNP or LDs
1 Border Operating Model doesn't work. And thats before we impose the rest of it
2 Customs division of GB and NI politically impossible.
3 Cost and red tape imposition making British business less competitive is politically unsustainable.
So we will end up having to make changes. You are a big "trigger Article 16" advocate - which would force a change to the status quo.
No webcam lol.
However as much as you big up Tice's loons I will never vote for them. It doesn't matter how many issues they have in similar with me, no "party" that is willing to cozy up with antivaxxers is ever going to get my vote.
https://twitter.com/BJFHubbard/status/1494650749896339458?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1494650749896339458|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2022/feb/18/storm-eunice-london-added-to-red-weather-warning-as-met-office-urges-millions-to-stay-indoors-live-news-updates
Just a few bits of canvas missing at present.
Anything else would be political suicide.
At about 3am in the morning in the election count, J. Vine was prancing around the studio in a weird cowboy outfit. The program basically failed to announce the actual results. The BBC claimed, when people complained, that they were trying to be inclusive....
"Australia’s largest coal-fired power plant will close seven years earlier than originally planned. That’s because its operator, Origin Energy, says it’s unable to compete with renewables."
https://electrek.co/2022/02/17/why-australias-largest-coal-fired-plant-will-close-seven-years-early/
I doubt my roof is going to be mended for ages.
Meanwhile Big Jet TV is getting a plug on R4.
I think it would be a shame to dismantle everything about Cool Britannia. It was the last occasion when Britain had anything Great about it. All downhill since.
I also once saw a bird flying backwards through a beallach in Scotland during a gale. I was hoping my tent pegs were secure....
https://twitter.com/fergieweather/status/1494656352236486657
Jordan Malthouse
@jordanellam123
The greater good
So that joke of a site is more "Great" than the 2012 Olympics to name a more recent example?
You're a joke.
One of the Brittany Ferries is doing circles off shore - looks like it’s too windy to come into port.
Anyway, that venue brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. Unlike the Palace of Westminster. And I wouldn't like to bet which of the two buildings will remaining standing for the longest, at the rate things are going.
I think the Olympics was amazing. Not a venue as such but amazing. That was also a Cool Britannia outcome and owed a huge amount to Tessa Jowell amongst others (whatever Boris tried to claim).
Leave off the personal abuse okay?
Philip seems like one of those zealots who can't believe anything good can come from those of opposing politics. Ironic really because as I wrote I personally think the original millennium exhibition was vacuous. But what they then made of it as a concert venue was fantastic. Seen some great shows there and I know so many others who have.
I particularly love the Jubilee line link straight in and you can take the boat too, even after a concert which is really cool.