politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two weeks to go in Scotland and NO edges up on the exchange
The widely reported news at the start of the week of the dramatic polling changes from YouGov in Scotland led inevitably to the money on the £3m Betfair markets to edge more towards YES. At one stage YES touched being a 26.5% chance but that has now started to recede with NO moving back upwards.
Comments
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First!0
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OGH clearly smart - a lot of "emotional" money going on this from both sides. Timing is everything. Postal ballots are being posted. Tick Tock....0
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Hm, where did my comments go? Nothing controversial in them guvn'r!0
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It's noticeable that 12 of the 18 faces on the front of the Daily Record are female (excl. Darling). Fits in with the narrative that women are more likely to vote No.0
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FPT:
Eastleigh UKIP are due to select their candidate later today. I don't know if Diane James is on the shortlist.0 -
To pick up on yesterday's thread and this, no-one cares what the Scots do. I'm not interested and I don't know anyone else south of the border who is either.
You may think this is very bad, but I just don't care.0 -
What does this suggestion of "capital controls" in the event of a yes vote actually mean in practice? Even if it were possible to restrict movement between "Scottish" and English banks, how on earth would they distinguish between people simply moving money about (and out of Scotland) and genuine necessary transactions? Large English firms doing payroll, people paying mortgages etc etc0
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The days of the printed media being a serious influence on public opinion are surely long in the past.
Daily Records circulation is down something like 70% from peak0 -
That applies across the board. The Daily Mirror currently sells less than a million copies, versus over 5 million copies in the 1960s.asjohnstone said:The days of the printed media being a serious influence on public opinion are surely long in the past.
Daily Records circulation is down something like 70% from peak0 -
Its a nice gimmick for the Daily Record and their sales are absolutely focussed on the key demographic of less prosperous Labour voters who will decide this thing so I would not underestimate their influence. The fact that Salmond gets his turn tomorrow shows that the paper is aware that their readership is not of one mind in this.
I am going to hear Ruth Davidson in Perth today at a Forces rally. This is another segment which will be strongly no and who will feel rather less shy about being proud of their country than Labour politicians are willing to admit to being when it has a Tory government.0 -
The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.Charles said:@RodC
FPT
No question on the Elgin Marbles
The British Museum bought them from the Earl of Elgin: they are owned by the trust behind the museum.
And the Earl was given them by the Imperial Sultan...
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.0 -
Then why do other parts of the media (eg the BBC) get so excited when there’s a ludicrous story in, again eg, the Mail?asjohnstone said:The days of the printed media being a serious influence on public opinion are surely long in the past.
Daily Records circulation is down something like 70% from peak0 -
If we end up with Little Scotland, what happens to the Great Scone?
It belongs to the UK, so does the UK get to keep 92% of it?
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The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.0 -
I wonder if the pollsters take account of the fall off in newspaper circulation when doing their weighting.
There is some disparity in the fall-off in circulation figures since 2010, the election year.
The Star -37.25%
Guardian -31.20%
Daily Record -29.70%
The Sun -26.37%
Daily Express -25.82%
The Times -24.39%
Daily Telegraph -21.20%
Daily Mirror -18.56%
Daily Mail -16.02%
Obviously other factors will be at play, such as online readership, but in essence it would seem that sales, and therefore readership identifiability is down by some 25% .0 -
Because for many they have huge numbers of online readers. I haven't bought an actual newspaper for at least 5 years but I read several each day online.OldKingCole said:
Then why do other parts of the media (eg the BBC) get so excited when there’s a ludicrous story in, again eg, the Mail?asjohnstone said:The days of the printed media being a serious influence on public opinion are surely long in the past.
Daily Records circulation is down something like 70% from peak0 -
We need a decent poll from a decent pollster. Come on ICM or Yougov - get yer fingers out!0
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FPT, SeanT, I certainly think that the political centre of gravity in rUK would be to the right of where it is in the UK as a whole. But, the loss of one third of the country would make this a very hollow victory, IMO.0
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Check out the new World Economic Forum international competitiveness rankings. The UK is 9th:
http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/economies/#economy=GBR
A quick look at the UK's spider chart tells us we'd be pretty much the world's most competitive economy but for our sorry public finances - thanks Gordon.0 -
I think it pretty unlikely that the Greeks would turn the acropolis into a military base! They may have been at risk when Greece was being oppressed by the Ottomans, but would not be now.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
The marbles should be seen in context, and a new museum to show them would be a great boost to Greek morale.0 -
It is doubtful that the perfidious Turks would be allowed to use the Parthenon as a munitions store again, but you never know. Or for the belligerent Venetians to lob a few shells at it.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
However there are other arguments for keeping the Marbles here in the UK. We saved them: if they had been left in place, it is unlikely that many would still be there. In the century before Elgin purchased them, many had been removed and burnt to make lime. Worse, the remaining slabs were left in place until the 1990s, exposing them to the weather, acid rain, accidental damage and vandalism.
Removing the marbles actually made Greece understand what they had; they darned well did not care for it before.
More importantly, although the Greeks have made a museum to house the marbles, and care for the Parthenon and Acropolis site, they are not exactly doing a good job of preserving the rest of their ancient history. In particular, the need to prevent the uncontrolled destruction and looting of sites.
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.0 -
Quite. I buy a paper on Saturdays, primarily for the comment and magazine sections, but I think that’s as much for old times sake.felix said:
Because for many they have huge numbers of online readers. I haven't bought an actual newspaper for at least 5 years but I read several each day online.OldKingCole said:
Then why do other parts of the media (eg the BBC) get so excited when there’s a ludicrous story in, again eg, the Mail?asjohnstone said:The days of the printed media being a serious influence on public opinion are surely long in the past.
Daily Records circulation is down something like 70% from peak
It’s a serious problem though, for the papers though; how to generate an income from us.0 -
Yes that is why they are shedding nearly 2000 readers a weekDavidL said:Its a nice gimmick for the Daily Record and their sales are absolutely focussed on the key demographic of less prosperous Labour voters who will decide this thing so I would not underestimate their influence. The fact that Salmond gets his turn tomorrow shows that the paper is aware that their readership is not of one mind in this.
I am going to hear Ruth Davidson in Perth today at a Forces rally. This is another segment which will be strongly no and who will feel rather less shy about being proud of their country than Labour politicians are willing to admit to being when it has a Tory government.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Thanks to those who posted (somewhat unexpectedly) on the longevity of states on the previous thread. I had to disappear shortly after my last post, hence the lack of replies there.0 -
JosiasJessop said:
Even those can be a bit shabby. I was at the temple of Knossos in May, expecting something grander and better presented than the reality.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.0 -
The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/10 -
Knossos does need extensive renovation, but that is hard to justify with Greek finances as they are.
I would like to see the marbles returned, they were saved when at risk under the Ottomans, but that would be different now. Greeks are very proud of their history and I would suggest that part of the gift was an agreement that the money raised by the new museum would go to restoring other architectural sites .
The 200th anniversary of a decisive British led bail out of the Greeks is coming up:
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/navalbattles1800s/p/narvarino.htm
A good time to help our Greek friends and allies again with a magnanimous gesture!0 -
Better Together Banks ranked at 89th on World List , well below banana republics , money launderers etc
http://www.cityam.com/1409746217/scottish-independence-fresh-data-could-give-boost-salmonds-plans-keep-pound0 -
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/10 -
It is also noticeable that their are no normal people , all BT officials , has been politicians etc.AndyJS said:It's noticeable that 12 of the 18 faces on the front of the Daily Record are female (excl. Darling). Fits in with the narrative that women are more likely to vote No.
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You could not make it up , can these BT numpties really be so stupid
Jim murphy calls on BBC to call off sinister audience booing his answers0 -
Malcolm, what proportion of your fellow-countrymen do you expect to vote "No"? Do you have any respect, any respect at all, for even a single one of them?malcolmg said:
It is also noticeable that their are no normal people , all BT officials , has been politicians etc.AndyJS said:It's noticeable that 12 of the 18 faces on the front of the Daily Record are female (excl. Darling). Fits in with the narrative that women are more likely to vote No.
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Mr. Foxinsox, they've mooted a Greek F1 race again. I don't see the point. It almost certainly won't happen and if it did it would be a disgrace, considering the nation's finances.0
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Morning all and on thread, I suspect the vast majority of the money spent on betting the IndyRef result is by people in England who don't actually have a vote or will have any involvement in the result. A great many YES voters will have no idea you can bet on political outcomes.
As for the lack of polls, probably has much to do with the fact the vast majority of people in England at best have a slight knowledge that something is happening in Scotland this month and at worst simply couldn't care less. Therefore there is no incentive for the English press to fund expensive polls which wont really interest their readers. Money would be better spent on polling on whether people think Judy Murray will win Strictly!0 -
I believe Kellner has said there will be 3 Yougovs between now and the 18th (ht to Alex on the site which can't be named).0
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Mr. Divvie, good to know. I'm also glad there's not a constant river of polls. Hope that's the case at the General Election but doubt it will be.
On the Sky paper review Daisy McAndrew and Stig Abell[sp] reckoned a Yes meant both a certain Cameron resignation *and* a delay to the 2015 election. Must say I disagree with both (the latter's possible but not certain).0 -
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/10 -
My postal vote hasn't arrived yet! Most of my friends returned theirs last week.CarlottaVance said:OGH clearly smart - a lot of "emotional" money going on this from both sides. Timing is everything. Postal ballots are being posted. Tick Tock....
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You would have thought they would have learnt the lesson of their Olympics. What should have been a national showcase was a national disaster, and they cannot even agree how much they cost.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Foxinsox, they've mooted a Greek F1 race again. I don't see the point. It almost certainly won't happen and if it did it would be a disgrace, considering the nation's finances.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/may/09/athens-2004-olympics-athletes-home
In F1 news, I see Renault are calling for the engine freeze to be lifted. Given that Renault-powered cars have won three races this year, they should be told to go away and procreate elsewhere.0 -
Special pleading - "I think I could look after your house better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the built environment, y'know."JosiasJessop said:
It is doubtful that the perfidious Turks would be allowed to use the Parthenon as a munitions store again, but you never know. Or for the belligerent Venetians to lob a few shells at it.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
However there are other arguments for keeping the Marbles here in the UK. We saved them: if they had been left in place, it is unlikely that many would still be there. In the century before Elgin purchased them, many had been removed and burnt to make lime. Worse, the remaining slabs were left in place until the 1990s, exposing them to the weather, acid rain, accidental damage and vandalism.
Removing the marbles actually made Greece understand what they had; they darned well did not care for it before.
More importantly, although the Greeks have made a museum to house the marbles, and care for the Parthenon and Acropolis site, they are not exactly doing a good job of preserving the rest of their ancient history. In particular, the need to prevent the uncontrolled destruction and looting of sites.
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.
We're not exactly so poor in our own history that we need to keep someone else's - yes, I know the argument that we hold them kind of legally but the reality is perfectly plain: we're sitting on someone else's relics. If we are genuinely worried about the preservation of the Marbles, we can set conditions on their protection and I dare say UNESCO would shell out a bit to help.
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For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.Innocent_Abroad said:
Malcolm, what proportion of your fellow-countrymen do you expect to vote "No"? Do you have any respect, any respect at all, for even a single one of them?malcolmg said:
It is also noticeable that their are no normal people , all BT officials , has been politicians etc.AndyJS said:It's noticeable that 12 of the 18 faces on the front of the Daily Record are female (excl. Darling). Fits in with the narrative that women are more likely to vote No.
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I imagine Miliband's price for delaying the 2015 poll would be a "grand coalition". (Why would he settle for anything less?) And it would be far too risky for the present coalition partners to do it without Labour consent.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, good to know. I'm also glad there's not a constant river of polls. Hope that's the case at the General Election but doubt it will be.
On the Sky paper review Daisy McAndrew and Stig Abell[sp] reckoned a Yes meant both a certain Cameron resignation *and* a delay to the 2015 election. Must say I disagree with both (the latter's possible but not certain).
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Come on Nick, that's patently ridiculous.NickPalmer said:
Special pleading - "I think I could look after your house better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the built environment, y'know."JosiasJessop said:
It is doubtful that the perfidious Turks would be allowed to use the Parthenon as a munitions store again, but you never know. Or for the belligerent Venetians to lob a few shells at it.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
However there are other arguments for keeping the Marbles here in the UK. We saved them: if they had been left in place, it is unlikely that many would still be there. In the century before Elgin purchased them, many had been removed and burnt to make lime. Worse, the remaining slabs were left in place until the 1990s, exposing them to the weather, acid rain, accidental damage and vandalism.
Removing the marbles actually made Greece understand what they had; they darned well did not care for it before.
More importantly, although the Greeks have made a museum to house the marbles, and care for the Parthenon and Acropolis site, they are not exactly doing a good job of preserving the rest of their ancient history. In particular, the need to prevent the uncontrolled destruction and looting of sites.
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.
We're not exactly so poor in our own history that we need to keep someone else's - yes, I know the argument that we hold them kind of legally but the reality is perfectly plain: we're sitting on someone else's relics. If we are genuinely worried about the preservation of the Marbles, we can set conditions on their protection and I dare say UNESCO would shell out a bit to help.
I look forward for you calling on all British museums to be emptied as items are returned to their origin countries - after all, every piece of art produced abroad is someone else's relic.
We are most certainly not talking about war loot here.
I am not worried about the preservation of the marbles. I'm worried about the rest of Greek archaeology (and don't get me started on the state of Turkish archaeology).0 -
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
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Holyrood magazine @HolyroodDaily 15 hrs
STV denies it 'ran away' from Cameron. Invite to take part in programme meeting undecided voters still stands, the broadcaster says
I'm sure Dave will first apologise for any misunderstanding, and then clear a space in his diary.0 -
You are aware that the Marbles which were left in Athens have rotted from pollution, and the new museum is in a terrible state, meaning that the majority of the pieces are now boxed away and not open to the public?foxinsoxuk said:
The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.Charles said:@RodC
FPT
No question on the Elgin Marbles
The British Museum bought them from the Earl of Elgin: they are owned by the trust behind the museum.
And the Earl was given them by the Imperial Sultan...
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
In London they are cared for and accessible to everyone0 -
There's a poll in RedBox (the Times daily online chatterbox) on what the public think of "Western values", following a disagreement that I missed between Cameron (protect them) and Ashdown (don't diss other cultures). The response was a bit meh, as perhaps befits the vague concept. 34% thought the term meaningful and positive, 27% couldn't assign any particular meaning to it, 21% thought it had a meaning but didn't know if they were in favour or against, 7% thought it had a meaning and they were against it, and a mystery 11% said they thought it had "another meaning".0
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It is probably true that most of the Betfair money comes from outside Scotland but 100% of Betfair money on US presidential elections comes from outside the US. American punters are barred from the site for fear of upsetting the Feds - something that ultimately did for Intrade. That didn't stop outside punters analysing the data available and (in 2012 at least) calling the result. The major difference is that there was far far more detailed polling data available in the US in 2012 than there is for this campaign. If the market is wrong it's for that reason. You don't risk emotional money on matters where, in your words, you "couldn't care less".Easterross said:Morning all and on thread, I suspect the vast majority of the money spent on betting the IndyRef result is by people in England who don't actually have a vote or will have any involvement in the result. A great many YES voters will have no idea you can bet on political outcomes.
As for the lack of polls, probably has much to do with the fact the vast majority of people in England at best have a slight knowledge that something is happening in Scotland this month and at worst simply couldn't care less. Therefore there is no incentive for the English press to fund expensive polls which wont really interest their readers. Money would be better spent on polling on whether people think Judy Murray will win Strictly!
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BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.0
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I think Alex Salmond is a pompous, blustering windbag who would tell any fib to pull the wool over the eyes of Scottish voters in order to win the vote.malcolmg said:
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/1
But I cannot recall applauding any caricatures!
My mental image of yourself is a cartoon though:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundskeeper_Willie0 -
I fear Mick Pork has eaten it.Easterross said:
My postal vote hasn't arrived yet! Most of my friends returned theirs last week.CarlottaVance said:OGH clearly smart - a lot of "emotional" money going on this from both sides. Timing is everything. Postal ballots are being posted. Tick Tock....
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But surely you wouldn't disagree with - "I think I could look after your money better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the broader economy, y'know." ;-)NickPalmer said:
Special pleading - "I think I could look after your house better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the built environment, y'know."JosiasJessop said:
It is doubtful that the perfidious Turks would be allowed to use the Parthenon as a munitions store again, but you never know. Or for the belligerent Venetians to lob a few shells at it.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
However there are other arguments for keeping the Marbles here in the UK. We saved them: if they had been left in place, it is unlikely that many would still be there. In the century before Elgin purchased them, many had been removed and burnt to make lime. Worse, the remaining slabs were left in place until the 1990s, exposing them to the weather, acid rain, accidental damage and vandalism.
Removing the marbles actually made Greece understand what they had; they darned well did not care for it before.
More importantly, although the Greeks have made a museum to house the marbles, and care for the Parthenon and Acropolis site, they are not exactly doing a good job of preserving the rest of their ancient history. In particular, the need to prevent the uncontrolled destruction and looting of sites.
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.
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A more interesting "poll" - if that sort of thing could be dignified with the term - question might be: "do you think the Earth is big enough for both 'Western values' and Islam?"NickPalmer said:There's a poll in RedBox (the Times daily online chatterbox) on what the public think of "Western values", following a disagreement that I missed between Cameron (protect them) and Ashdown (don't diss other cultures). The response was a bit meh, as perhaps befits the vague concept. 34% thought the term meaningful and positive, 27% couldn't assign any particular meaning to it, 21% thought it had a meaning but didn't know if they were in favour or against, 7% thought it had a meaning and they were against it, and a mystery 11% said they thought it had "another meaning".
(FWIW, I don't. Too many Muslims believe that they can only practise their religion in a country Muslims have conquered, which rather stretches our "Western" belief in religious tolerance to the limit, if not beyond.)
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Patrick said:
Isn't much of the modern site actually a slightly dodgy "reconstruction" by Sir Arthur Evans and his team?JosiasJessop said:
Even those can be a bit shabby. I was at the temple of Knossos in May, expecting something grander and better presented than the reality.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.0 -
My in-laws had their postal vote, and have voted.
No of course..0 -
For those interested, here's my piece on state survival (a small bit of it's about Scotland and the referendum, so it's veering towards almost being an approximation of on-topic):
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html0 -
I am not disputing legal ownership, and neither as I understand does NP.Charles said:
You are aware that the Marbles which were left in Athens have rotted from pollution, and the new museum is in a terrible state, meaning that the majority of the pieces are now boxed away and not open to the public?foxinsoxuk said:
The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.Charles said:@RodC
FPT
No question on the Elgin Marbles
The British Museum bought them from the Earl of Elgin: they are owned by the trust behind the museum.
And the Earl was given them by the Imperial Sultan...
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
In London they are cared for and accessible to everyone
The marbles should be returned as a gift to celebrate the Greek bicentennial, with some proper funding to display them well.
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In this case, it's reasonable. The Marbles weren't stolen, and are well cared for. Greece is a basket case, right now.NickPalmer said:
Special pleading - "I think I could look after your house better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the built environment, y'know."JosiasJessop said:
It is doubtful that the perfidious Turks would be allowed to use the Parthenon as a munitions store again, but you never know. Or for the belligerent Venetians to lob a few shells at it.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
However there are other arguments for keeping the Marbles here in the UK. We saved them: if they had been left in place, it is unlikely that many would still be there. In the century before Elgin purchased them, many had been removed and burnt to make lime. Worse, the remaining slabs were left in place until the 1990s, exposing them to the weather, acid rain, accidental damage and vandalism.
Removing the marbles actually made Greece understand what they had; they darned well did not care for it before.
More importantly, although the Greeks have made a museum to house the marbles, and care for the Parthenon and Acropolis site, they are not exactly doing a good job of preserving the rest of their ancient history. In particular, the need to prevent the uncontrolled destruction and looting of sites.
The Greeks need to show they care for their rich archaeological heritage besides the tourist-attracting moneypots.
We're not exactly so poor in our own history that we need to keep someone else's - yes, I know the argument that we hold them kind of legally but the reality is perfectly plain: we're sitting on someone else's relics. If we are genuinely worried about the preservation of the Marbles, we can set conditions on their protection and I dare say UNESCO would shell out a bit to help.
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Go and have aeronautical intercourse with a rolling doughnut.Life_ina_market_town said:
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
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Sausage-Fingers on formatting of last post - Wrong quotes
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No hopers then, cowed and broken with no hope and no vision unable to think for themselves.Slackbladder said:My in-laws had their postal vote, and have voted.
No of course..0 -
Mr. Easterross, I hope it turns up soon.
Mr. Jessop, aye, Ferrari and Renault both agreed to the restrictions. It's pathetic bleating.
0 -
I'm sorry, you want to return them for free, but also pay the Greeks to display them?foxinsoxuk said:
I am not disputing legal ownership, and neither as I understand does NP.Charles said:
You are aware that the Marbles which were left in Athens have rotted from pollution, and the new museum is in a terrible state, meaning that the majority of the pieces are now boxed away and not open to the public?foxinsoxuk said:
The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.Charles said:@RodC
FPT
No question on the Elgin Marbles
The British Museum bought them from the Earl of Elgin: they are owned by the trust behind the museum.
And the Earl was given them by the Imperial Sultan...
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
In London they are cared for and accessible to everyone
The marbles should be returned as a gift to celebrate the Greek bicentennial, with some proper funding to display them well.
How long would that last? After all, the Greeks would have us over a barrel: continue paying for the marbles or they'll go into dusty boxes in a basement somewhere.
Utter madness.
Also realise what this would mean for other legally-collected items in our collections.0 -
They love you too Malcolm.malcolmg said:
No hopers then, cowed and broken with no hope and no vision unable to think for themselves.Slackbladder said:My in-laws had their postal vote, and have voted.
No of course..0 -
Personally I think you are an insular Little Englander who is unable to educate himself on the topic and just resorts to insulting Alex Salmond rather than address the topic. You typify the unionist in that you have no interest in Scotland and perfectly show why we are where we are today.foxinsoxuk said:
I think Alex Salmond is a pompous, blustering windbag who would tell any fib to pull the wool over the eyes of Scottish voters in order to win the vote.malcolmg said:
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/1
But I cannot recall applauding any caricatures!
My mental image of yourself is a cartoon though:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundskeeper_Willie0 -
They have a new museum - a mess - and have not taken care of their existing marblesfoxinsoxuk said:
I think it pretty unlikely that the Greeks would turn the acropolis into a military base! They may have been at risk when Greece was being oppressed by the Ottomans, but would not be now.Life_ina_market_town said:
The Parthenon has been used by continentals as an arms dump before, with tragic and irreparable consequences. Who is to say the same would not reoccur if we returned the marbles? Let them be kept safe and sound in London.foxinsoxuk said:The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
The marbles should be seen in context, and a new museum to show them would be a great boost to Greek morale.0 -
Would that gather moss?malcolmg said:
Go and have aeronautical intercourse with a rolling doughnut.Life_ina_market_town said:
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
0 -
"As a result of Carswell’s defection, Eurosceptics now have an exit threat. One of them explains: ‘What this means is that when ten of us go in to see the Prime Minister to ask him to give more details on his renegotiation package, he knows that if he doesn’t give us what we want, more of us will defect.’"
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9304752/revolt-on-the-right/0 -
If you are right in supposing that a "yes" in the referendum means the end of the British identity (I am not convinced) then an unintended consequence will be an identity crisis in our black and brown communities, none of whom see themselves as English (let alone any kind of Celt) but as British.Morris_Dancer said:For those interested, here's my piece on state survival (a small bit of it's about Scotland and the referendum, so it's veering towards almost being an approximation of on-topic):
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html
0 -
Hang on, Malcolm, a few minutes ago you said that ordinary NO voters were poor misguided souls. Now you've done an about face and decided you do despise them after all...malcolmg said:
No hopers then, cowed and broken with no hope and no vision unable to think for themselves.Slackbladder said:My in-laws had their postal vote, and have voted.
No of course..
0 -
Morning all,
Peter Oborne has interesting piece in Telegraph about Cameron's options with UKIP. Once again though a commentator fails to understand that many UKIPers see Tory and Labour as all as bad each other. This is anti-politics, not anti-Cameron.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11072727/David-Cameron-can-chart-a-course-past-Nigel-Farage-the-revolutionary.html0 -
Garbage. Many do see themselves as English. Support England and wear England shirts. You might be right that the majority see themselves as British but to say Englishness is rejected by all of them is risible rubbish.Innocent_Abroad said:
If you are right in supposing that a "yes" in the referendum means the end of the British identity (I am not convinced) then an unintended consequence will be an identity crisis in our black and brown communities, none of whom see themselves as English (let alone any kind of Celt) but as British.Morris_Dancer said:For those interested, here's my piece on state survival (a small bit of it's about Scotland and the referendum, so it's veering towards almost being an approximation of on-topic):
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html
0 -
Its a bit like the way you insult everybody who questions Yes whilst gladly supporting Salmond who out-rightly refuses to educate the Scottish electorate about his currency proposals. Talk about insular! ;-)malcolmg said:
Personally I think you are an insular Little Englander who is unable to educate himself on the topic and just resorts to insulting Alex Salmond rather than address the topic. You typify the unionist in that you have no interest in Scotland and perfectly show why we are where we are today.foxinsoxuk said:
I think Alex Salmond is a pompous, blustering windbag who would tell any fib to pull the wool over the eyes of Scottish voters in order to win the vote.malcolmg said:
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/1
But I cannot recall applauding any caricatures!
My mental image of yourself is a cartoon though:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundskeeper_Willie
0 -
Not a great deal of "Western values" on display on PB on an everyday basis. Wild western values perhaps. Liberalism and tolerance in fairly short supply.Innocent_Abroad said:
A more interesting "poll" - if that sort of thing could be dignified with the term - question might be: "do you think the Earth is big enough for both 'Western values' and Islam?"NickPalmer said:There's a poll in RedBox (the Times daily online chatterbox) on what the public think of "Western values", following a disagreement that I missed between Cameron (protect them) and Ashdown (don't diss other cultures). The response was a bit meh, as perhaps befits the vague concept. 34% thought the term meaningful and positive, 27% couldn't assign any particular meaning to it, 21% thought it had a meaning but didn't know if they were in favour or against, 7% thought it had a meaning and they were against it, and a mystery 11% said they thought it had "another meaning".
(FWIW, I don't. Too many Muslims believe that they can only practise their religion in a country Muslims have conquered, which rather stretches our "Western" belief in religious tolerance to the limit, if not beyond.)0 -
Damning article about Cameron in the Spectator
"Certainly, Cameron’s management of his party’s internal coalition has been appalling. Even before the Carswell defection, one Tory MP had nicknamed him Sir David Peel, a nod to the last leader to split the Tories. One long-serving Tory MP complains that what makes Cameron’s handling of the party so galling is ‘that we can see how he turns on the charm with the Libs, but he just won’t bother with us’. Even one Cameron loyalist bemoans how the Prime Minister has put himself at risk of ‘suffering death from a thousand slights’.
The Cameron leadership failed to grasp that the era of command and control politics was coming to an end. As one more reflective cabinet minister remarks, ‘Cameron became leader in the age of Blair and the pager. But he’s ended up as Prime Minister in the age of Twitter, when everyone is on broadcast — not receive — mode.’
In office, Cameron hasn’t changed. He stands accused of being an incompetent Namierite — an insider who doesn’t know the inside track. For instance, no one in No. 10 fully realised the damage that sacking Owen Paterson — the reforming, right-wing and well respected Environment Secretary — would inflict on Cameron’s relations with various parts of the Conservative family. All of this explains why so many on the right struggle to feel sympathy for Cameron now. A strikingly large number of backbenchers talk with glee about the leadership contest that so many of them expect next summer."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9304712/divide-and-dont-rule/0 -
I forget the name of the actress who started the campaign to get our marbles back in the 80s - but it was entirely to do with her political career (she was advised to "own an issue" and selected this one).NickPalmer said:
We're not exactly so poor in our own history that we need to keep someone else's - yes, I know the argument that we hold them kind of legally but the reality is perfectly plain: we're sitting on someone else's relics. If we are genuinely worried about the preservation of the Marbles, we can set conditions on their protection and I dare say UNESCO would shell out a bit to help.
I got told a funny story, though, about a visit she made to the British Museum. She threw herelf on the floor in front of a wonderful collection of marbles, expostulating about how it rended her very soul to see them imprisoned in London rather than in Athens.
The Director let her carry on for five of six minutes before gently pointing out that they were Assyrian and the Elgin marbles were in the next room...0 -
Malcolm
"The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture......"
and here's the the YES campaign in one picture.....
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FD3Rj1yAXK8/UPIS6PCiHYI/AAAAAAAAC6w/Vb7QY30Sk-A/s1600/braveheartrev032.jpg0 -
Return them for a price. A couple of the nicer Dodecanese Islands.foxinsoxuk said:
I am not disputing legal ownership, and neither as I understand does NP.Charles said:
You are aware that the Marbles which were left in Athens have rotted from pollution, and the new museum is in a terrible state, meaning that the majority of the pieces are now boxed away and not open to the public?foxinsoxuk said:
The legal ownership may be as you state, but these are an exceptional piece of greek art, and would be best seen in Athens.Charles said:@RodC
FPT
No question on the Elgin Marbles
The British Museum bought them from the Earl of Elgin: they are owned by the trust behind the museum.
And the Earl was given them by the Imperial Sultan...
The bicentenial of Greek independence is near, It would be a great anniversary gift.
In London they are cared for and accessible to everyone
The marbles should be returned as a gift to celebrate the Greek bicentennial, with some proper funding to display them well.0 -
lol - nice riposte. There are actually rather few politicians who don't favour taxation at all...Gadfly said:
But surely you wouldn't disagree with - "I think I could look after your money better than you do, so I'll take it off you. It's in the interest of the broader economy, y'know." ;-)
That, I fear, is a distortion of what I said. I don't think legal ownership should be used as an excuse if in reality you're sitting on someone else's goods. I'm not suggesting that the Greeks should seize the marbles through an extension of the European Arrest Warrant, merely that we should give them back because it's the right thing to do.JosiasJessop said:BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.
0 -
You have to wonder whether the British Museum's aim to return many of the Nimrud Ivories to Iraq is in any way a good idea, given the region's history and recent events.Charles said:
I forget the name of the actress who started the campaign to get our marbles back in the 80s - but it was entirely to do with her political career (she was advised to "own an issue" and selected this one).NickPalmer said:
We're not exactly so poor in our own history that we need to keep someone else's - yes, I know the argument that we hold them kind of legally but the reality is perfectly plain: we're sitting on someone else's relics. If we are genuinely worried about the preservation of the Marbles, we can set conditions on their protection and I dare say UNESCO would shell out a bit to help.
I got told a funny story, though, about a visit she made to the British Museum. She threw herelf on the floor in front of a wonderful collection of marbles, expostulating about how it rended her very soul to see them imprisoned in London rather than in Athens.
The Director let her carry on for five of six minutes before gently pointing out that they were Assyrian and the Elgin marbles were in the next room...0 -
As it is rolling very unlikelyJosiasJessop said:
Would that gather moss?malcolmg said:
Go and have aeronautical intercourse with a rolling doughnut.Life_ina_market_town said:
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
0 -
I hope you're right. I think, on reflection, that you may well be in respect of the "third generation" who are more often of mixed race (like my son's girlfriend) and who have parents who were educated in this country. So my comment is a good deal less true than it was thirty years ago (when I got hold of the notion). Old age. Oh dear.HanDodges said:
Garbage. Many do see themselves as English. Support England and wear England shirts. You might be right that the majority see themselves as British but to say Englishness is rejected by all of them is risible rubbish.Innocent_Abroad said:
If you are right in supposing that a "yes" in the referendum means the end of the British identity (I am not convinced) then an unintended consequence will be an identity crisis in our black and brown communities, none of whom see themselves as English (let alone any kind of Celt) but as British.Morris_Dancer said:For those interested, here's my piece on state survival (a small bit of it's about Scotland and the referendum, so it's veering towards almost being an approximation of on-topic):
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html
0 -
But if they were legally purchased, then they are not the original person's goods.NickPalmer said:
That, I fear, is a distortion of what I said. I don't think legal ownership should be used as an excuse if in reality you're sitting on someone else's goods. I'm not suggesting that the Greeks should seize the marbles through an extension of the European Arrest Warrant, merely that we should give them back because it's the right thing to do.JosiasJessop said:BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.
0 -
You stupid thick turnip do you ever read posts. I do not support Alex Salmond I support YES. For thick stupid cretins like you, there is a very big difference there.Gadfly said:
Its a bit like the way you insult everybody who questions Yes whilst gladly supporting Salmond who out-rightly refuses to educate the Scottish electorate about his currency proposals. Talk about insular! ;-)malcolmg said:
Personally I think you are an insular Little Englander who is unable to educate himself on the topic and just resorts to insulting Alex Salmond rather than address the topic. You typify the unionist in that you have no interest in Scotland and perfectly show why we are where we are today.foxinsoxuk said:
I think Alex Salmond is a pompous, blustering windbag who would tell any fib to pull the wool over the eyes of Scottish voters in order to win the vote.malcolmg said:
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/1
But I cannot recall applauding any caricatures!
My mental image of yourself is a cartoon though:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundskeeper_Willie0 -
So a week after the Rotherham report and still no meaningful response from Cameron.
Compare his comment yesturday to those he made in May 2012 about abuse in Rochdale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dfPgnjD7s
They key part is between 26:00 and 26:30.
It would be interesting to know what Cameron and his newly appointed Communities Minister Sayeeda Warsi felt would be the priorities for her department.
0 -
There's a strong argument for saying such things are inherently inalienable, and no purchase of them could be legal.JosiasJessop said:
But if they were legally purchased, then they are not the original person's goods.NickPalmer said:
That, I fear, is a distortion of what I said. I don't think legal ownership should be used as an excuse if in reality you're sitting on someone else's goods. I'm not suggesting that the Greeks should seize the marbles through an extension of the European Arrest Warrant, merely that we should give them back because it's the right thing to do.JosiasJessop said:BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.
0 -
Very true. It's not like America is going to give Alaska back to Russia after it bought it.JosiasJessop said:
But if they were legally purchased, then they are not the original person's goods.NickPalmer said:
That, I fear, is a distortion of what I said. I don't think legal ownership should be used as an excuse if in reality you're sitting on someone else's goods. I'm not suggesting that the Greeks should seize the marbles through an extension of the European Arrest Warrant, merely that we should give them back because it's the right thing to do.JosiasJessop said:BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.
0 -
Forsyth misuses the term "Namierite". It does not mean an insider, but an adherent to the thesis of The Structure of Politics at the Accession of George III. In that sense, to be accused of being a Namierite should be regarded as a compliment, not as an insult. That Cameron would nevertheless not be remotely out of place in the Structure of Politics is one of the more depressing things about British public life since Blair.isam said:Damning article about Cameron in the Spectator
0 -
Burt a doughnut is not a stone. We all know a rolling stone gathers no moss, but surely the sticky-sugar coating on a doughnut would attract all sort of crud: dirt, pebbles and even moss.malcolmg said:
As it is rolling very unlikelyJosiasJessop said:
Would that gather moss?malcolmg said:
Go and have aeronautical intercourse with a rolling doughnut.Life_ina_market_town said:
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
Methinks an experiment is in order. I'll have to buy a variety of doughnuts in Cambridge and roll them down Castle Hill, then categorise everything they've gathered. Although the experiment might be hindered by some of the doughnuts disappearing en route.
I'll get my coat.0 -
Careful you may end up your own orifice with all your stupid twisting and turning.Innocent_Abroad said:
Hang on, Malcolm, a few minutes ago you said that ordinary NO voters were poor misguided souls. Now you've done an about face and decided you do despise them after all...malcolmg said:
No hopers then, cowed and broken with no hope and no vision unable to think for themselves.Slackbladder said:My in-laws had their postal vote, and have voted.
No of course..
Where did I say I despise anyone perchance. I feel sorry for lots of people who are needy and have to have others make decisions for them but you lying and making up things is beyond the pale but not unexpected.0 -
Care to expand on that argument?Ishmael_X said:
There's a strong argument for saying such things are inherently inalienable, and no purchase of them could be legal.JosiasJessop said:
But if they were legally purchased, then they are not the original person's goods.NickPalmer said:
That, I fear, is a distortion of what I said. I don't think legal ownership should be used as an excuse if in reality you're sitting on someone else's goods. I'm not suggesting that the Greeks should seize the marbles through an extension of the European Arrest Warrant, merely that we should give them back because it's the right thing to do.JosiasJessop said:BTW, note Nick Palmer's admission below: legal ownership does not, in his mind, matter.
0 -
Dyedwoolie Monitor Final Sindy prediction.
No 48.7, Yes 51.3
Scotland is an independent nation.0 -
If the Marbles are returned to Greece, what next - the Rosetta stone to Egypt ?
Certain places in the world are simply more stable than others - the British Museum is in London which is basically a world city anyway.0 -
So you have never defended Salmond's currency plans, and are perfectly happy to vote Yes without knowing what currency an independent Scotland would use. I think it could be you who is the stupid thick turnip ;-)malcolmg said:
You stupid thick turnip do you ever read posts. I do not support Alex Salmond I support YES. For thick stupid cretins like you, there is a very big difference there.Gadfly said:
Its a bit like the way you insult everybody who questions Yes whilst gladly supporting Salmond who out-rightly refuses to educate the Scottish electorate about his currency proposals. Talk about insular! ;-)malcolmg said:
Personally I think you are an insular Little Englander who is unable to educate himself on the topic and just resorts to insulting Alex Salmond rather than address the topic. You typify the unionist in that you have no interest in Scotland and perfectly show why we are where we are today.foxinsoxuk said:
I think Alex Salmond is a pompous, blustering windbag who would tell any fib to pull the wool over the eyes of Scottish voters in order to win the vote.malcolmg said:
But zoonies like you applaud the carcitures of Alex Salmond etc all the time as being great.foxinsoxuk said:
The Yes campaign is summed up by the idiocy of that cartoon. Project fib indeed!malcolmg said:The No Campaign summed up in 1 picture
twitter.com/JamesMcLeary/status/507378637092315136/photo/1
But I cannot recall applauding any caricatures!
My mental image of yourself is a cartoon though:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundskeeper_Willie
0 -
Matthew Goodwin (@GoodwinMJ)
04/09/2014 09:05
Is Ukip beginning to own immigration issue? For the 2nd time this year "other" is the preferred party on immigration pic.twitter.com/DLYK24Am250 -
http://mic.com/articles/76321/9-priceless-artifacts-museums-should-return-to-their-home-countries
Not just an argument I'd apply to British Museum artifacts either - #1 on the list from Babylon - surely much safer in Berlin than Iraq right now !0 -
Stick to testing the doughnut part however , the aeronautical intercourse could be dangerous especially as your testing it at speed going downhillJosiasJessop said:
Burt a doughnut is not a stone. We all know a rolling stone gathers no moss, but surely the sticky-sugar coating on a doughnut would attract all sort of crud: dirt, pebbles and even moss.malcolmg said:
As it is rolling very unlikelyJosiasJessop said:
Would that gather moss?malcolmg said:
Go and have aeronautical intercourse with a rolling doughnut.Life_ina_market_town said:
Enter the old Marxist line that people who disagree with you are suffering from "false consciousness". Although the Marxists did maintain that it was nationalism which was a "false consciousness", securing the allegiance of the proletariat and lumpenproletariat to the economic interests of the ruling class.malcolmg said:For ordinary misguided people who are entitled to their opinion YES, to these lying troughers NO. It si made up of failed politicians, rich business people and BT officials because they have NO normal people to put up.
Methinks an experiment is in order. I'll have to buy a variety of doughnuts in Cambridge and roll them down Castle Hill, then categorise everything they've gathered. Although the experiment might be hindered by some of the doughnuts disappearing en route.
I'll get my coat.0