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In 1829, yes. South Ossetia was internationally recognised as part of Georgia during the Russian invasion.Sunil_Prasannan said:
And East Prussia was part of Germany?Socrates said:Oh - and South Ossetia was part of Georgia.
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If the objective is purely to cut spending then there is no point looking at anything other than welfare and possibly NHS spending. If the objective to to define what the government should support than of course all areas should be looked at.Luckyguy1983 said:
But surely it will need us to look at 'small' cost savings as well as large?Charles said:
Because the £350m the Arts Council costs will make the squar root of bugger all different (and it's already been cut by c. 20%). To impact a £100bn deficit we need to some very big decisions about resource allocation.HurstLlama said:
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"Alanbrooke said:
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?rcs1000 said:
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.peter_from_putney said:The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
Overseas aid is an example. There is a clear value in some aid, but increasing spending to his an arbitrary target at a time like this seems odd. I'm sure you could easily save £3bn+ without makng a real diffence in terms of impact.
However, to cut £100bn you need to look at health, welfare (including tax credits) and pensions.
Personally I have no problem with spending the equvalent of about £6 per annum per person on the arts (as long as that money is used to provide good quality arts to a goood proportion of the public)
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I agree absolutely, I'm not trying to defend them. But as you said, people are drawing a political angle from it, and from that perspective it seems to me like a pretty crucial question. Because if their fear was unjustified, then they were motivated by racism- "those people all stick together to such an extent they'll defend terrible child abuse" or something similar. So the problem would be one of institutional racism. Whereas if it was justified, then the wider political angle would be about having communities with values so wildly different than the norm for the country.HurstLlama said:
Why should they even ask the question? "A child is being raped. Should I interfere to stop it happening? Hang on I must consider the implications of me doing so on community relations"
Either way, though, once you get away from that political angle, of course you have to completely condemn and lay full responsibility on the individuals involved.0 -
This is where Cameron needs to be audacious. Lose the by-election, proclaim that although he always supported two-party politics the people have spoken and insist on four, legislate right away for PR without a referendum. Next election comes, Lab + Lib get less than 50%, coalition with UKIP, PM Cameron for five more years, maybe ten.Pulpstar said:
I agree ! But can it be changed as Justine measures up the curtains in No 10 ? Doubt it.HurstLlama said:
Actually there was. There were certainly letters to the editor of the Times and if I recall articles about it in both the Times and the Telegraph.. A big fuss was a lot more low key in those days.Pulpstar said:
Was a big fuss made in February 1974 about Wilson not winning the popular vote ?HurstLlama said:fitalass said:Unbelievable! Your dismissing a female voter, and one who voted three times for Labour in the recent past. Plato, and many other voters like her who switched from Labour at the last GE are exactly the demographic that the Labour party needs to win back if they are aiming to return to power any time soon.
Not really, Mrs Lass. The 35% strategy sees Labour back in power without attracting anyone they don't already have. Such is the wonder of our so-called democracy. How anyone with a sense of decency can support it is beyond me.
How ever, you seem to have made a leap from the point I was trying, somewhat hamfistedly no doubt, to make. A system that confers a majority and, virtually dictatorial powers, on the basis of 35% of the votes cast by 60% of the electorate can scarcely be called a democracy.
Cameron really should have offered up something a bit better than the alternative vote, as well as not allowing himself to be outplayed on the boundaries by Clegg et al.
He'll only have himself to blame.0 -
Would you say the people there are Ukrainian speaking too?Socrates said:
In 1829, yes. South Ossetia was internationally recognised as part of Georgia during the Russian invasion.Sunil_Prasannan said:
And East Prussia was part of Germany?Socrates said:Oh - and South Ossetia was part of Georgia.
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Look after the £10 millions and the Billions will look after themselvesLuckyguy1983 said:
But surely it will need us to look at 'small' cost savings as well as large?Charles said:
Because the £350m the Arts Council costs will make the squar root of bugger all different (and it's already been cut by c. 20%). To impact a £100bn deficit we need to some very big decisions about resource allocation.HurstLlama said:
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"Alanbrooke said:
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?rcs1000 said:
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.peter_from_putney said:The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
Overseas aid is an example. There is a clear value in some aid, but increasing spending to his an arbitrary target at a time like this seems odd. I'm sure you could easily save £3bn+ without makng a real diffence in terms of impact.
However, to cut £100bn you need to look at health, welfare (including tax credits) and pensions.0 -
Socrates,
"Nick Palmer's circulars might be socially and politically unusual?"
More likely, they are polite (typical Brits) and don't like to bring up a sensitive subject with 'that nice man who asks us our views.'0 -
Hmmm.... just as Kashmir was internationalised by the presence of "pro-Pakistani" forces in 1947?Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.0 -
Mr Volcano - I am sure Cameron can say more but he has already started. On 23 Jan 2013volcanopete said:As Tories bang on about Europe,will/can Dave reveal his shopping list for renegotiation?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_med
''First, the problems in the eurozone are driving fundamental change in Europe. Second, there is a crisis of European competitiveness, as other nations across the world soar ahead. And third, there is a gap between the EU and its citizens which has grown dramatically in recent years. And which represents a lack of democratic accountability and consent that is - yes - felt particularly acutely in Britain.
"If we don't address these challenges, the danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift towards the exit. ''
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158316
Apologists for UKIP and journalists desperate to run any sort of eye-catching story all want to ignore that speech. But I think the point of it is both evident and indeed sound. I agree with it but am sure that certainly some might want to take it further.
However .... The big story is not what Cameron has said or will say or should say. The big story is what Miliband has said.
ie Sweet FA.
But thick skulled right wing tories and ludicrously stupid UKIPers only want to undermine the only party that will and could give us a referendum.
Loony Toon right wingers have no answer to this point, their contortions on the issue are ludicrous to behold.0 -
It is interesting how these judgements of worth are made and, perhaps, somewhat sinister that they are not made public.Charles said:
Believe the standard government value of a young adult is £1m. A child could be more, ppose but don't know.Pulpstar said:
Key word here - advisingbondegezou said:advising against therapies that may offer hope, but don't offer any realistic probability of actually helping.
The proton treatment may well not work, could well be a waste of £100,000... but the parents can try it if they wish to do so.
THere is an interesting question here - how much does the NHS value the child's life, and how much do the parents. To the parents I would suggest their son's life has an almost infinite monetary worth, and so even if the chances of survival are raised from 0.1% to 0.11% by the proton beam treatment which would value his life at £1Bn - that is a price worth paying for the parents. Clearly the NHS could not afford to value each life at (effectively) £1 Bn as it just doesn't have that much money.
The 0.1 and 0.11% chances I have made up (Perhaps it is 30%/35% ?) but there simply must have to be a value placed on people's lives in the NHS, as heartless as it sounds. It could be the marginal benefit of this treatment is simply not cost effective.
My kidneys went splat when I was in my forties and without any hesitation or even a conversation with me I was put on the transplant list, which thank God turned out to be unnecessary. A few months ago, nearly twenty years later, on one of my check up visits I was chatting about that with the quack and he said well you wouldn't be put on the list today, you are retired.
I have no complaint about the decision, kidneys are in short supply and they should go to the people who can make best use of them. I just wonder whether the NHS rationing schemes shouldn't be made public.0 -
While I agree that more attention should be paid to the McCann's, I don't think anyone other than you is suggesting there is enough evidence yet to call for their arrest.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Contrast their treatment with that of the McCanns.Flightpath said:
A typically pathetic and hysterical response to parfents taking a child away from expert medical treatment on a whim and with no one having a clue if they have correct medication or anything for him. Pretty disgusting too that you blatanly use it for political, purposes.isam said:
British Nanny State getting their citizens banged up abroad for doing what they thinks best for their dying childMarkHopkins said:
Time for a change
For all anyone knew they could have been taking the child away for an assisted suicide.
If the parents had been Jehovas (we think we know best) Witnesses refusing a blood transfusion then where should your nanny state have stood then.
The courts are able to decide these matters without parents taking the law into their own hands.
http://suesspiciousminds.com/2013/01/15/the-role-of-the-court-in-assessing-alternative-medical-treatment/
''It involves a child who is seven years old and has cancer, and a mother who disagreed with the proposed medical treatment and removed him from hospital. You may recall that the mother and child then went missing, and the High Court took the unusual step of identifying them in the press so that they could be located, and an interim care order was made to convey the child to hospital''
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He won't though.edmundintokyo said:
This is where Cameron needs to be audacious. Lose the by-election, proclaim that although he always supported two-party politics the people have spoken and insist on four, legislate right away for PR without a referendum. Next election comes, Lab + Lib get less than 50%, coalition with UKIP, PM Cameron for five more years, maybe ten.Pulpstar said:
I agree ! But can it be changed as Justine measures up the curtains in No 10 ? Doubt it.HurstLlama said:
Actually there was. There were certainly letters to the editor of the Times and if I recall articles about it in both the Times and the Telegraph.. A big fuss was a lot more low key in those days.Pulpstar said:
Was a big fuss made in February 1974 about Wilson not winning the popular vote ?HurstLlama said:fitalass said:Unbelievable! Your dismissing a female voter, and one who voted three times for Labour in the recent past. Plato, and many other voters like her who switched from Labour at the last GE are exactly the demographic that the Labour party needs to win back if they are aiming to return to power any time soon.
Not really, Mrs Lass. The 35% strategy sees Labour back in power without attracting anyone they don't already have. Such is the wonder of our so-called democracy. How anyone with a sense of decency can support it is beyond me.
How ever, you seem to have made a leap from the point I was trying, somewhat hamfistedly no doubt, to make. A system that confers a majority and, virtually dictatorial powers, on the basis of 35% of the votes cast by 60% of the electorate can scarcely be called a democracy.
Cameron really should have offered up something a bit better than the alternative vote, as well as not allowing himself to be outplayed on the boundaries by Clegg et al.
He'll only have himself to blame.
Amusingly if true PR came in I would expect the Lib Dems to fare worse at the next GE than they are already going to as long term Labour voters on Lib Dem holiday in Lib-Con marginals head back to Labour.
6% under PR maybe, 9% under FPTP. They'd have more seats however..0 -
Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.0
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I don't know enough about the pro-Pakistani forces in 1947 Kashmir to comment.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hmmm.... just as Kashmir was internationalised by the presence of "pro-Pakistani" forces in 1947?Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.0 -
Um, where did I say that, I was just quoting the article!rcs1000 said:
While I agree that more attention should be paid to the McCann's, I don't think anyone other than you is suggesting there is enough evidence yet to call for their arrest.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Contrast their treatment with that of the McCanns.Flightpath said:
A typically pathetic and hysterical response to parfents taking a child away from expert medical treatment on a whim and with no one having a clue if they have correct medication or anything for him. Pretty disgusting too that you blatanly use it for political, purposes.isam said:
British Nanny State getting their citizens banged up abroad for doing what they thinks best for their dying childMarkHopkins said:
Time for a change
For all anyone knew they could have been taking the child away for an assisted suicide.
If the parents had been Jehovas (we think we know best) Witnesses refusing a blood transfusion then where should your nanny state have stood then.
The courts are able to decide these matters without parents taking the law into their own hands.
http://suesspiciousminds.com/2013/01/15/the-role-of-the-court-in-assessing-alternative-medical-treatment/
''It involves a child who is seven years old and has cancer, and a mother who disagreed with the proposed medical treatment and removed him from hospital. You may recall that the mother and child then went missing, and the High Court took the unusual step of identifying them in the press so that they could be located, and an interim care order was made to convey the child to hospital''
They were harshly criticized for having left their children alone despite the availability of Ocean Club babysitters and an evening crèche...
[T]he argument ran that a working-class couple might have faced child-abandonment charges, but a group of doctors on a posh holiday had been let off the hook.
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Really?Socrates said:
I don't know enough about the pro-Pakistani forces in 1947 Kashmir to comment.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hmmm.... just as Kashmir was internationalised by the presence of "pro-Pakistani" forces in 1947?Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.
I thought you were PB's resident expert on international affairs, Socrates!
I am shocked! Shocked I tell you!
Here you go then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict
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Today's thread is GO's legacy.
Discussion used to be about the economy - now a Con earned recovery is assumed as the default status and not a political topic worth discussion.
Posters now preoccupied about which religion is the nastiest.
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Take health.Charles said:
Because the £350m the Arts Council costs will make the squar root of bugger all different (and it's already been cut by c. 20%). To impact a £100bn deficit we need to some very big decisions about resource allocation.HurstLlama said:
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"Alanbrooke said:
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?rcs1000 said:
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.peter_from_putney said:The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
Overseas aid is an example. There is a clear value in some aid, but increasing spending to his an arbitrary target at a time like this seems odd. I'm sure you could easily save £3bn+ without makng a real diffence in terms of impact.
However, to cut £100bn you need to look at health, welfare (including tax credits) and pensions.
Take a look at the increases it had going up to 2010. Since then its been ring fenced and had a 20 billion efficiency drive. Health inflation is always higher than 'ordinary' inflation. So health has had a big real terms cut when previously it was having a big real terms increase. The difference between the two is stark.
I don't expect the Left to like all that but quite why the far right should chose to ignore the govts successes - well you might think that a bit mysterious.0 -
Russian troops that no one seems able to locate despite the extensive surveillance coverage as countless well as journalists on the ground.Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/08/31/hoaxes-hype-and-hysteria/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11067351/Ukraine-battles-Russian-tank-column-near-Luhansk-ahead-of-Minsk-peace-talks.html
Poroshenko's claims so slavishly followed by the media. Propaganda.
https://twitter.com/MarkBartalmai
Journalist on the ground with militia unit at airport. Reality.
Russian troops aren't needed.
http://russeurope.hypotheses.org/2706
Ukraine and NATO claims Russian tank column invades from Russia.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/mariupol-yeah-were-going-to-take-mariupol-all-of-it-30549550.html
Journalist on the ground with militia unit in Novoazovsk. Reality.
Its pretty obvious what animates the likes of Nudelman-Kagan and Brzezinski.0 -
ROFLTGOHF said:Today's thread is GO's legacy.
Discussion used to be about the economy - now a Con earned recovery is assumed as the default status and not a political topic worth discussion.
Posters now preoccupied about which religion is the nastiest.
which economic miracle is this H ?
The economy's as unbalanced as ever.0 -
If Germany had won, might not they be saying similar things about us? British intelligence may have mopped up the German agents but was itself riddled with KGB spies who didn't need to be vetted because they wore the right old school ties, so Enigma/Ultra decrypts and recipes for atom bombs were forwarded to Uncle Joe. The RAF was dedicated to bombing European fields rather than anti-submarine operations. The army's major success in the first part of the war was being evacuated by a bunch of weekend sailors. And so on and so forth.Flightpath said:
They are not the same people. Several generations separate them.SeanT said:So much for German efficiency. At Frankfurt airport you have to queue outside to get a bus to the train station. Like Luton.
Hard to believe these are the same people who ran such an efficient train network in occupied Poland, in the early 1940s
The train network in Poland went to Auschwitz - so what are you trying to say?
It is extremely fortunate for us that the Nazis in the '40s were in fact quite inefficient and backward in many ways and organisationally inept. They proved incapable of producing tanks and planes in suitable numbers and wasted all manner of resources on crackpot schemes. The only way they could beat us was with submarines and they allowed us to break their codes and never produced decent ocean going boats. Nazi Germany was idiotic and corrupt from top to bottom. Thankfully.0 -
You must really suck at shopping lists.Flightpath said:
Mr Volcano - I am sure Cameron can say more but he has already started. On 23 Jan 2013volcanopete said:As Tories bang on about Europe,will/can Dave reveal his shopping list for renegotiation?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_med
''First, the problems in the eurozone are driving fundamental change in Europe. Second, there is a crisis of European competitiveness, as other nations across the world soar ahead. And third, there is a gap between the EU and its citizens which has grown dramatically in recent years. And which represents a lack of democratic accountability and consent that is - yes - felt particularly acutely in Britain.
"If we don't address these challenges, the danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift towards the exit. ''
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158316
Apologists for UKIP and journalists desperate to run any sort of eye-catching story all want to ignore that speech. But I think the point of it is both evident and indeed sound. I agree with it but am sure that certainly some might want to take it further.
However .... The big story is not what Cameron has said or will say or should say. The big story is what Miliband has said.
ie Sweet FA.
But thick skulled right wing tories and ludicrously stupid UKIPers only want to undermine the only party that will and could give us a referendum.
Loony Toon right wingers have no answer to this point, their contortions on the issue are ludicrous to behold.0 -
He doesn't actually give any reasons why the poll might be bogus. All he's saying is that he doesn't like the result.isam said:
Nick Tyrone @NicholasTyrone · 4h
How and why the poll giving #Carswell and #UKIP a 44 percent lead in #Clacton is utterly bogus......http://bit.ly/1njOk4t
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Amusingly if true ...Pulpstar said:
He won't though.edmundintokyo said:
This is where Cameron needs to be audacious. Lose the by-election, proclaim that although he always supported two-party politics the people have spoken and insist on four, legislate right away for PR without a referendum. Next election comes, Lab + Lib get less than 50%, coalition with UKIP, PM Cameron for five more years, maybe ten.Pulpstar said:
I agree ! But can it be changed as Justine measures up the curtains in No 10 ? Doubt it.HurstLlama said:
Actually there was. There were certainly letters to the editor of the Times and if I recall articles about it in both the Times and the Telegraph.. A big fuss was a lot more low key in those days.Pulpstar said:
Was a big fuss made in February 1974 about Wilson not winning the popular vote ?HurstLlama said:fitalass said:Unbelievable! Your dismissing a female voter, and one who voted three times for Labour in the recent past. Plato, and many other voters like her who switched from Labour at the last GE are exactly the demographic that the Labour party needs to win back if they are aiming to return to power any time soon.
Not really, Mrs Lass. The 35% strategy sees Labour back in power without attracting anyone they don't already have. Such is the wonder of our so-called democracy. How anyone with a sense of decency can support it is beyond me.
How ever, you seem to have made a leap from the point I was trying, somewhat hamfistedly no doubt, to make. A system that confers a majority and, virtually dictatorial powers, on the basis of 35% of the votes cast by 60% of the electorate can scarcely be called a democracy.
Cameron really should have offered up something a bit better than the alternative vote, as well as not allowing himself to be outplayed on the boundaries by Clegg et al.
He'll only have himself to blame.
Amusingly if true PR came in I would expect the Lib Dems to fare worse at the next GE than they are already going to as long term Labour voters on Lib Dem holiday in Lib-Con marginals head back to Labour.
6% under PR maybe, 9% under FPTP. They'd have more seats however..
http://www.spectator.co.uk/cartoons/9299772/0 -
One sure way to bring down the cost of the NHS would be to remove minimum pricing on alcohol, encourage fatties to eat loads of lard, pies, sugar, coca-cola and chips - and excercise little or not at all:
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/healthcare/dear-dr-sarah-wollaston-mp/0 -
The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.0 -
The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
Classic Cameroon posting when faced with a question they can't answer. Post a speech that completely fails to address the points made then spend a couple of paragraphs throwing out random insults at anyone who might disagree.Flightpath said:
Mr Volcano - I am sure Cameron can say more but he has already started. On 23 Jan 2013volcanopete said:As Tories bang on about Europe,will/can Dave reveal his shopping list for renegotiation?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=cameron-does-not-have-as-much-time-as-hed-like-on-european-reform&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_med
''First, the problems in the eurozone are driving fundamental change in Europe. Second, there is a crisis of European competitiveness, as other nations across the world soar ahead. And third, there is a gap between the EU and its citizens which has grown dramatically in recent years. And which represents a lack of democratic accountability and consent that is - yes - felt particularly acutely in Britain.
"If we don't address these challenges, the danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift towards the exit. ''
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158316
Apologists for UKIP and journalists desperate to run any sort of eye-catching story all want to ignore that speech. But I think the point of it is both evident and indeed sound. I agree with it but am sure that certainly some might want to take it further.
However .... The big story is not what Cameron has said or will say or should say. The big story is what Miliband has said.
ie Sweet FA.
But thick skulled right wing tories and ludicrously stupid UKIPers only want to undermine the only party that will and could give us a referendum.
Loony Toon right wingers have no answer to this point, their contortions on the issue are ludicrous to behold.
No wonder no one takes you seriously.0 -
"The astronomical lead makes it obviously questionable."Sean_F said:
He doesn't actually give any reasons why the poll might be bogus. All he's saying is that he doesn't like the result.isam said:
Nick Tyrone @NicholasTyrone · 4h
How and why the poll giving #Carswell and #UKIP a 44 percent lead in #Clacton is utterly bogus......http://bit.ly/1njOk4t
Is it necessary to have no statistical knowledge or sense in order to become a political hack ?
If a poll was taken in East Ham and Labour were found to have a 44 point lead would he question that ?
"political media types are generally extremely psephologically unsound."
He's going to have proven his point in a big way when the by election result comes in.
I suspect the Blairite commentators are going to go into apoplexy when Carswell wins.
It will dawn on Dan Hodges he'd better start looking for a Nigel Farage mask to cover his modesty.0 -
Socrates, isn't it true that the USA (or at least the US east of the Mississippi and north of Florida) was once "internationally recognised" as British territory?Socrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Obviously, the presence of "pro-American militias" internationalised the conflict 0 -
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/august/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op.aspxSocrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
Tedious.
0 -
This is where Cameron needs to be audacious. Lose the by-election, proclaim that although he always supported two-party politics the people have spoken and insist on four, legislate right away for PR without a referendum. Next election comes, Lab + Lib get less than 50%, coalition with UKIP, PM Cameron for five more years, maybe ten.
1) Labour are on course to win the FPTP election. Why on earth would they vote through legislation that would put them out of power?
2) Labour were instrumental in ensuring that the AV+ vote was defeated why would Labour MP's opposed to such a change on principle vote for the legislation.
3) The Trade Unions would force Miliband to oppose it or get rid of him. There is no point keeping politicians who don't want to win elections.
4) Many Tories are opposed to PR. Why would they vote for PR?
5) Currently conservatives have around 45% of the seats on 36 % of the vote.. PR will probably reduce their share of the vote (it kills the vote UKIP get Labour argument). Why would Cameron or his party adopt a voting system that could reduce Tory representation by anything up to 33% . Surely Tory MPs fearing losing their seat under the system would vote against it
6) PR could provide UKIP with anything between 50 and 175 MPs on current boundaries and recent election results and polling, far more than then they will achieve in 2015 by FPTP currently. Why would any of the establishment parties vote for a voting system that allowed UKIP to become a significant force at Westminster overnight?
7) Worse still it is just possible that given UKIP have proved that they can poll in the mid to high twenties in elections it is just possible that UKIP could out poll the Tories in a general election if the FPTP constraints to UKIP winning seats were removed. Then where would Cameron be?
Frankly rather than 'audacious' it sounds like political suicide to me. Until the UKIP situation no longer obscures and destabilises the position of the establishment parties I cannot see any of the establishment parties making many noises about PR.0 -
Bercow announces a modest pause in the selection process for next Common's Clerk in order to hear MPs views and to find a mutually agreeably solution.0
-
If only the "powers that be" were this quick in taking action in Rotherham!isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
A good primer on what a Russian invasion would look like. Not what a couple of thousand volunteers having crossed the border looks like.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/september/01/top-ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine.aspx0 -
I never referred to the committees. I'm talking about the actual burials. Burials that are unreported in the Russian press, and cause journalists to get beaten up when they look into them.FalseFlag said:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/august/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op.aspxSocrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
Tedious.
You can't even deny the fact that you're anti-Semitic. It's pathetic.0 -
If someone accuses other journalists of having no knowledge about polling, it's reasonable to expect him to demonstrate some knowledge about polling.Pulpstar said:
"The astronomical lead makes it obviously questionable."Sean_F said:
He doesn't actually give any reasons why the poll might be bogus. All he's saying is that he doesn't like the result.isam said:
Nick Tyrone @NicholasTyrone · 4h
How and why the poll giving #Carswell and #UKIP a 44 percent lead in #Clacton is utterly bogus......http://bit.ly/1njOk4t
Is it necessary to have no statistical knowledge or sense in order to become a political hack ?
If a poll was taken in East Ham and Labour were found to have a 44 point lead would he question that ?
"political media types are generally extremely psephologically unsound."
He's going to have proven his point in a big way when the by election result comes in.
I suspect the Blairite commentators are going to go into apoplexy when Carswell wins.
It will dawn on Dan Hodges he'd better start looking for a Nigel Farage mask to cover his modesty.
0 -
You've just been complaining about people smearing 'the right' as racist -so now when someone contradicts you, you meltdown into a tirade accusing someone of being a racist, anti-semitic homophobe? Bizarrely hypocritical and totally unacceptable, and you know it.Socrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.0 -
Cam may get back an MP in 2015 to replace the one he lost last week.David_Evershed said:Bercow announces a modest pause in the selection process for next Common's Clerk in order to hear MPs views and to find a mutually agreeably solution.
0 -
Where are the cries of doom then ?Alanbrooke said:
ROFLTGOHF said:Today's thread is GO's legacy.
Discussion used to be about the economy - now a Con earned recovery is assumed as the default status and not a political topic worth discussion.
Posters now preoccupied about which religion is the nastiest.
which economic miracle is this H ?
The economy's as unbalanced as ever.
Economic debate in the Uk is over.
0 -
Sunil, you're a nice chap, but you're not making any sense here. Until the French intervened after Saratoga, it wasn't an internationalised conflict. The Russians have been behind the militias in eastern Ukraine from the beginning. Being a "pro-American militia" isn't equivalent to being "pro-Russian militia" in Ukraine, because the US did not exist as a country yet, and certainly wasn't a foreign power trying to set up a puppet state.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Socrates, isn't it true that the USA (or at least the US east of the Mississippi and north of Florida) was once "internationally recognised" as British territory?Socrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Obviously, the presence of "pro-American militias" internationalised the conflict0 -
Dan Hodges is probably already writing an article about how Carswell winning Clacton is bad news for Ed Miliband.Pulpstar said:
I suspect the Blairite commentators are going to go into apoplexy when Carswell wins.
It will dawn on Dan Hodges he'd better start looking for a Nigel Farage mask to cover his modesty.
0 -
The way in which this case is indirectly emphasizing the inaction of the police in Rotherham and other northern towns will be striking to many people.isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
0
-
A search is fine, an EAW an over-rection. Now youe found him, the kid is safe, drop the case. Don't extradite.JosiasJessop said:
Why do you think they did?Charles said:
Parents state clear intention to seek alternative, legitimate, treatment for their kid.JosiasJessop said:
Again, I ask what you expected the hospital to do in this situation? And the police?Socrates said:
A sick child has been separated from his parents, those parents have been arrested for seeking treatment elsewhere, and all of this has happened because of an international arrest warrant that didn't respect traditional liberties or need evidence of an actual crime.hucks67 said:I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
This is the crap that Theresa May has opted into. She's truly a useless Home Secretary.
Since when did the NHS get to decide that was against the law?
Remember what we believe happened here: a seriously ill child left hospital for a few hours with his parents. When he did not return and the hospital could not contact the parents, they were faced with two actions:
1) Launch a search for him; initially on the hospital grounds, then later involving the police.
2) Ignore the fact a child is missing, and assume everything is fine.
Are people really saying option 2) is the right one?0 -
Fair points, Mr L, but they don't take away from the thrust of Mr. Path's arguments. Nazi Germany was horrendously inefficient and corrupt, thank God. I was reading up on the activities of the Twenty Committee, almost the definition of gentleman amateurs, but compared to their opposition in the Abwehr they were towering professionals.DecrepitJohnL said:
If Germany had won, might not they be saying similar things about us? British intelligence may have mopped up the German agents but was itself riddled with KGB spies who didn't need to be vetted because they wore the right old school ties, so Enigma/Ultra decrypts and recipes for atom bombs were forwarded to Uncle Joe. The RAF was dedicated to bombing European fields rather than anti-submarine operations. The army's major success in the first part of the war was being evacuated by a bunch of weekend sailors. And so on and so forth.Flightpath said:
They are not the same people. Several generations separate them.SeanT said:So much for German efficiency. At Frankfurt airport you have to queue outside to get a bus to the train station. Like Luton.
Hard to believe these are the same people who ran such an efficient train network in occupied Poland, in the early 1940s
The train network in Poland went to Auschwitz - so what are you trying to say?
It is extremely fortunate for us that the Nazis in the '40s were in fact quite inefficient and backward in many ways and organisationally inept. They proved incapable of producing tanks and planes in suitable numbers and wasted all manner of resources on crackpot schemes. The only way they could beat us was with submarines and they allowed us to break their codes and never produced decent ocean going boats. Nazi Germany was idiotic and corrupt from top to bottom. Thankfully.0 -
You appear to have missed the "smiley" on the end of my commentSocrates said:
Sunil, you're a nice chap, but you're not making any sense here. Until the French intervened after Saratoga, it wasn't an internationalised conflict. The Russians have been behind the militias in eastern Ukraine from the beginning. Being a "pro-American militia" isn't equivalent to being "pro-Russian militia" in Ukraine, because the US did not exist as a country yet, and certainly wasn't a foreign power trying to set up a puppet state.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Socrates, isn't it true that the USA (or at least the US east of the Mississippi and north of Florida) was once "internationally recognised" as British territory?Socrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Obviously, the presence of "pro-American militias" internationalised the conflict 0 -
It's much easier to 'take action" against a single family compared to larger numbers of people.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If only the "powers that be" were this quick in taking action in Rotherham!isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
0 -
In the long term, the rise of UKIP might not be very good for labour, if the WWC class they take for granted have an alternative.Oliver_PB said:
Dan Hodges is probably already writing an article about how Carswell winning Clacton is bad news for Ed Miliband.Pulpstar said:
I suspect the Blairite commentators are going to go into apoplexy when Carswell wins.
It will dawn on Dan Hodges he'd better start looking for a Nigel Farage mask to cover his modesty.
UKIP might be the one true (English) one nation party, more so than labour or the tories, both of which have large areas of the country where they are detested.0 -
I presume you are against Israel's unilateral annexation of the Golan in 1981 (which, unlike the Territories, was part of a sovereign state, in this case Syria).Socrates said:
I never referred to the committees. I'm talking about the actual burials. Burials that are unreported in the Russian press, and cause journalists to get beaten up when they look into them.FalseFlag said:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/august/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op.aspxSocrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
Tedious.
You can't even deny the fact that you're anti-Semitic. It's pathetic.0 -
If he wishes to deny the fact he is anti-Semitic and says that he doesn't believe the Jews are secretly controlling the US, then I'll be quite happy to retract the allegation. FalseFlag has regularly used the anti-Semitic language of referring to Victoria Nuland as "Nudelman" and has said that he admires Russia because Putin keeps the social values of the 1950s USA, which he said the USA lost in the 1960s. If I have somehow mistaken his views here, then I will apologise, but FalseFlag has not corrected me on any of them.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just been complaining about people smearing 'the right' as racist -so now when someone contradicts you, you meltdown into a tirade accusing someone of being a racist, anti-semitic homophobe? Bizarrely hypocritical and totally unacceptable, and you know it.Socrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
It's also frankly bullshit that when someone contradicts me I accuse them of this stuff. Both you and Sunil have disagreed with me about this issue, but neither of you have made postings implying support for anti-Semitism, racism and homophobia, so I have never accused either of you of such things.0 -
I'm sure you might have an opinion on that..TGOHF said:
Posters now preoccupied about which religion is the nastiest.0 -
Yes, I am.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I presume you are against Israel's unilateral annexation of the Golan in 1981 (which, unlike the Territories, was part of a sovereign state, in this case Syria).Socrates said:
I never referred to the committees. I'm talking about the actual burials. Burials that are unreported in the Russian press, and cause journalists to get beaten up when they look into them.FalseFlag said:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/august/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op.aspxSocrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
Tedious.
You can't even deny the fact that you're anti-Semitic. It's pathetic.0 -
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
0 -
Will it though? Is there even a baying mob out there any more? Or have we been so deliberately desensitized, dumbed down, and cowed by mass media that even chucking bricks at a pediatrician is an expression of political engagement and intelligence too far?AndyJS said:
The way in which this case is indirectly emphasizing the inaction of the police in Rotherham and other northern towns will be striking to many people.isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court
0 -
Hodges:
"Each time one of these fresh abuses comes to light we undergo the same ritual. A report will be issued, and a sombre statement read out in the House of Commons. We will be stunned by what is revealed, and say to ourselves “How can this have happened? Here? In Britain? In 2014?”
Then two armies will mobilise. The ranks of one of those armies will be filled primarily with hardcore racists and professional Islamophobes. Their bile will spew forth, overtly and subliminally, as they summon up images of Britain’s green and pleasant land being turned into the West’s first Islamic caliphate.
They will quickly be met in battle by representatives of the Muslim community, Muslim commentators and some of their colleagues in the liberal commentariat. They will point to their opponents, conjure their own apocalyptic images of a white, anti-Muslim backlash, and push the original abuses to the side."0 -
Has the extradition been requested under the EAW? That can only be used for extradition for criminal prosecution not investigation I thought?
0 -
TGOHF said:
Cam may get back an MP in 2015 to replace the one he lost last week.David_Evershed said:Bercow announces a modest pause in the selection process for next Common's Clerk in order to hear MPs views and to find a mutually agreeably solution.
How so? Are you suggesting that Bercow will not be Speaker by the time of the 2015 general election and so will not stand in Buckingham?0 -
No-one wants to see a baying mob, but you would have expected one or two demonstrations in Rotherham over this. Just shows how apathetic people are these days.Luckyguy1983 said:
Will it though? Is there even a baying mob out there any more? Or have we been so deliberately desensitized, dumbed down, and cowed by mass media that even chucking bricks at a pediatrician is an expression of political engagement and intelligence too far?AndyJS said:
The way in which this case is indirectly emphasizing the inaction of the police in Rotherham and other northern towns will be striking to many people.isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.0 -
Is it?TGOHF said:
Where are the cries of doom then ?Alanbrooke said:
ROFLTGOHF said:Today's thread is GO's legacy.
Discussion used to be about the economy - now a Con earned recovery is assumed as the default status and not a political topic worth discussion.
Posters now preoccupied about which religion is the nastiest.
which economic miracle is this H ?
The economy's as unbalanced as ever.
Economic debate in the Uk is over.
Shock drop in UK manufacturing growth - are the finest days of UK recovery over?
A weaker outlook for the manufacturing sector has led some analysts to suggest that the best days of the UK recovery have now passed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11067413/Shock-drop-in-UK-manufacturing-growth-are-the-finest-days-of-UK-recovery-over.html
0 -
If Carswell wins a huge landslide in the by-election, people will be watching very closely to see how Roger Gale reacts. He knows his seat is one of the top 10 best constituencies in the country for UKIP.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
0 -
No comments allowed!isam said:Dan Hodges speaking sense
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danhodges/
Looks like the Telegraph fears the comments they're likely to get from one of the factions Dan talks about!0 -
Labour will win Rotherham in May 2015.0
-
Hodges doesn't know why integration hasn't happened when he was a cheerleader for the party that encouraged multiculturalism? Pricelessisam said:Dan Hodges speaking sense
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danhodges/0 -
Olympic rower contests Uxbridge seat
Olympic gold medallist James Cracknell is preparing to stand against Boris Johnson as a prospective Tory candidate in the Uxbridge seat.
Mr Cracknell, who this year narrowly missed out on becoming a Conservative MEP for the South West, will contest the party’s nomination alongside the current Mayor of London, the Daily Mail reports.
Tory HQ confirmed “about 100” people have applied for the candidature, which is due to be decided at a meeting on 12 September. (PoliticsHome)
If Uxbridge choose Cracknell over Boris, will Boris plump for Clacton?
0 -
They had been effectively lost in 1967 - why was that again ?Sunil_Prasannan said:
I presume you are against Israel's unilateral annexation of the Golan in 1981 (which, unlike the Territories, was part of a sovereign state, in this case Syria).Socrates said:
I never referred to the committees. I'm talking about the actual burials. Burials that are unreported in the Russian press, and cause journalists to get beaten up when they look into them.FalseFlag said:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/august/30/russian-soldiers-mothers-committees-a-us-covert-op.aspxSocrates said:The Russian troops are right there fighting in unmarked uniforms. The ones that are dying are being buried on the quiet back home, and the Russians are attacking journalists visiting their graves:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Oh, and let's not forget the Russian soldiers actually captured 30km inside Ukraine
You're "there's no evidence the Russians are there" is laughable. You are not governed by facts or evidence. You are governed by a deep love of Vladimir Putin, because he beats on the gays. You much prefer the values of the 1950s USA, when the Jews and the blacks were kept in their place.
Tedious.
You can't even deny the fact that you're anti-Semitic. It's pathetic.0 -
By the same standard you should cease comment on Ukraine.Socrates said:
I don't know enough about the pro-Pakistani forces in 1947 Kashmir to comment.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hmmm.... just as Kashmir was internationalised by the presence of "pro-Pakistani" forces in 1947?Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.
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You'll find the Telegraph blocks comments on vast numbers of their articles (most of those regarding Rotherham recently I believe for example) not just those from fallen Blairites....BenM said:
No comments allowed!isam said:Dan Hodges speaking sense
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/author/danhodges/
Looks like the Telegraph fears the comments they're likely to get from one of the factions Dan talks about!0 -
Surely Hodges already knows the answer? The religion is a supremacist one, which believes it is right and everyone else is wrong. Compromise is impossible.Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.0 -
I totally disagree. You make the small, relatively painless cuts first. For example, the DSA should be sold off. Ludicrous having it as a Government agency. Save a fortune.
If the objective is purely to cut spending then there is no point looking at anything other than welfare and possibly NHS spending. If the objective to to define what the government should support than of course all areas should be looked at.
Personally I have no problem with spending the equvalent of about £6 per annum per person on the arts (as long as that money is used to provide good quality arts to a good proportion of the public)
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"Suzanne Evans
@SuzanneEvans1
Ashya King's parents should be freed now, says Ukip MEP Atkinson http://shar.es/117jS6 via @BelTel"
twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/5064239087198167070 -
It was always about realism, sensible people have been saying that for years.Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.0 -
It makes a distinct contrast with those who have thrown in the towel that he at the age of 71 (perhaps his age will be an advantage) is still planning to battle on. I think the demographics in Thanet North are a little more favourable for him than they are for his countepart in Thanet South but even so it will be some battle.AndyJS said:
If Carswell wins a huge landslide in the by-election, people will be watching very closely to see how Roger Gale reacts. He knows his seat is one of the top 10 best constituencies in the country for UKIP.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
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Me neither, but it would be somewhat of a sign of life.AndyJS said:
No-one wants to see a baying mob, but you would have expected one or two demonstrations in Rotherham over this. Just shows how apathetic people are these days.Luckyguy1983 said:
Will it though? Is there even a baying mob out there any more? Or have we been so deliberately desensitized, dumbed down, and cowed by mass media that even chucking bricks at a pediatrician is an expression of political engagement and intelligence too far?AndyJS said:
The way in which this case is indirectly emphasizing the inaction of the police in Rotherham and other northern towns will be striking to many people.isam said:The parents of Ashya King have not accepted the extradition and will be held in custody for 72 hours
Ashya has been made a ward of court0 -
I'd imagine he'd have strong personal incumbency, particularly with the otherwise UKIP-inclined.manofkent2014 said:
It makes a distinct contrast with those who have thrown in the towel that he at the age of 71 (perhaps his age will be an advantage) is still planning to battle on. I think the demographics in Thanet North are a little more favourable for him than they are for his countepart in Thanet South but even so it will be some battle.AndyJS said:
If Carswell wins a huge landslide in the by-election, people will be watching very closely to see how Roger Gale reacts. He knows his seat is one of the top 10 best constituencies in the country for UKIP.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
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Hodges column is brilliant? Really? He acknowledges that over the centuries we have welcomed immigrants from all faiths and all races and they have integrated successfully. He then suggests a Royal Commission or some such to investigate our failure to get some of the Muslims living here to integrate. Eh? When did it become our failure?Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.0 -
a defection would also help the UKIP candidate in Thanet South, no doubt...AndyJS said:
If Carswell wins a huge landslide in the by-election, people will be watching very closely to see how Roger Gale reacts. He knows his seat is one of the top 10 best constituencies in the country for UKIP.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
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Well, they cut the grant-in-aid by 20%. (£100m) and eliminated additional overheads. A chunk of the remainder (something like £100m) is committed to support the major international institutions (eg the NG, the NPG, etc). While I'd prefer those organisations to be allowed to diversify their revenue streams, the government, in its infinite wisdom, has decided that charging may not even be dreamt about. So, in theory, you could eliminate the remaining £250m - but at the cost of doing massive damage to the UK's cultural sector. The cuts have already forced the ACE to be much more thoughtful about that they do - and are say you could probably squeeze them an additional £50m or so - but equally we have an obligation to beautify society as well. By comparison, £250m would be about 0.15% of the NHS's annual budget - so easy to find.HurstLlama said:
Yup, but when you need to cut expenditure first you cut the "nice to haves", the optional extras.Charles said:
The £350m the Arts Council costs will make the square root of bugger all different (and it's already been cut by c. 20%). To impact a £100bn deficit we need to some very big decisions about resource allocation.
Overseas aid is an example. There is a clear value in some aid, but increasing spending to his an arbitrary target at a time like this seems odd. I'm sure you could easily save £3bn+ without makng a real diffence in terms of impact.
However, to cut £100bn you need to look at health, welfare (including tax credits) and pensions.
Chopping arts funding would clearly save a tiny fraction of what is needed, but unless you do that then you can't reasonably go after the big sums (health, welfare and pensions). Increasing spend on overseas aid to meet an arbitrary target is clearly a total nonsense but it does show where Cameron's heart is.
Cameron, like Blair in 1997, has missed a massive opportunity and for the same reasons (cowardice combined with personal ambition). I suspect he will be out on his ear in 8 months time and deservedly so. Of course, the down-side to that is we are going to get Miliband who will be even worse.
The problem is so large you need to hit the big numbers otherwise it all becomes a futile exercise.
(Although the best option, IMHO, would be to give the NG, etc £3bn as a foundation and then cut them off from state support). Fund it from relatively cheap debt and then eliminate the ongoing financial obligation0 -
But as far as I know it is only the Muslims that get involved in beheadings, gang child rape, stonings, perpetual jihad, honour killings and all the rest - with a brazen 'two fingers' to the rest of us. Britain is a wonderfully tolerant and receptive host culture - and has been for centuries. But this one may be an integration too far. Delighted to have people of Pakistani ethnicity here. The fundamentlists can eff off ta v much.Socrates said:Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.
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Yes, and I don't think Roger Gale would have any problem holding Thanet North whichever of the two parties he stands for.RodCrosby said:
a defection would also help the UKIP candidate in Thanet South, no doubt...AndyJS said:
If Carswell wins a huge landslide in the by-election, people will be watching very closely to see how Roger Gale reacts. He knows his seat is one of the top 10 best constituencies in the country for UKIP.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, he says he'll be standing, although actuarially speaking he may not be right...manofkent2014 said:
Has Roger Gale yet stated whether he is standing again in Thanet North?AndyJS said:Contrary to some reports, the fact Tony Baldry is standing down as MP for Banbury is a surprise, because he had been reselected to stand again for the seat in 2015 not long ago. This suggests recent developments have made him change his mind about staying on in the Commons.
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New thread.0
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Because I don't soak up the information from crank websites and the Kremlin's propaganda outlets? Laughable.FalseFlag said:
By the same standard you should cease comment on Ukraine.Socrates said:
I don't know enough about the pro-Pakistani forces in 1947 Kashmir to comment.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Hmmm.... just as Kashmir was internationalised by the presence of "pro-Pakistani" forces in 1947?Socrates said:
Says the guy that tries to discredit American officials by referring to them by their family's prior Jewish name...FalseFlag said:
I have never claimed such a thing, there is a distinct Donbass culture and the Donabss has a strong Russian ethnic population as well as being linguistically Russian despite numerous Ukrainisation campaigns.Socrates said:
The Russia invasion has already materialised. We have satellite photos of Russian artillery in Ukraine.FalseFlag said:
Must be true, along with that Russian invasion that has yet to materialise. If they weren't in Donbass they wouldn't have been killed.Socrates said:Hundreds of Ukrainian troops are feared to have been massacred by pro-Russian forces who allegedly reneged on a deal to allow them to retreat.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-ukrainian-troops-massacred-pro-russian-4142110
Why are you concerned about soldiers being killed in battle but not civilians killed by shelling?
Where they burned alive like those people in Odessa?
Your credibility on this entire issue was shot when you started trying to claim there was an ethnically "Donbass people", contrary to every census ever collected in Ukraine.
You have no credibility due to your wild comments, lack of any knowledge and uncritical acceptance of Kiev's hysterical claims attempting to internationalise the conflict as well as NATO's repeats ludicrous claims to justify its existence.
The situation is already internationalised by the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.0 -
Neither you, or Hodges, is correct in my opinion, because you are both blaming antecedents (in this case Islam) as opposed to consequences. Consequences dictate behaviour, because all behaviour is predicated on the anticipated consequence. The positive reinforcers of this child rape were depraved gratification, the chance to attack and dominate perceived 'immodest' girls, and probably the thrill of getting away with it. The negative consequences of it were zero. If the negative consequences of shoplifting were zero, the shelves in the shops would be empty.AndyJS said:
Surely Hodges already knows the answer? The religion is a supremacist one, which believes it is right and everyone else is wrong. Compromise is impossible.Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.
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Of course it's 'our' (the state's) failure. Our failure not to require, demand, and enforce integration, and to preserve and protect and develop our own national cultural identity -absorbing and evolving from different waves of immigration, but as a whole.HurstLlama said:
Hodges column is brilliant? Really? He acknowledges that over the centuries we have welcomed immigrants from all faiths and all races and they have integrated successfully. He then suggests a Royal Commission or some such to investigate our failure to get some of the Muslims living here to integrate. Eh? When did it become our failure?Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.
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That is correct. Having spoken to young Muslims, there does appear to be teaching by imans in the UK, that their faith is superior to all others and the only way of life for all people is an Islamic one. But most people who attend Mosques don't take too seriously everything said to them or they don't interpret it in the wrong way. But there are some that do obviously take it all very seriously and they can access extremist material online.AndyJS said:
Surely Hodges already knows the answer? The religion is a supremacist one, which believes it is right and everyone else is wrong. Compromise is impossible.Socrates said:Hodges column is brilliant:
So then we move on. But as we do so we leave behind a gaping – and widening – fissure between ourselves and Britain’s Muslims.
We live in the age of the public inquiry. Hillsborough. Bloody Sunday. Phone hacking. Jimmy Savile. Each of those represents an important issue. But none of them is surely as important or as fundamental as the fact that in front of our eyes an entire section of British society is in danger of being left to break off and simply drift away.
I have no idea what the best model would be. A public inquiry. A Royal Commission. It doesn’t really matter. But we need a proper, comprehensive, formal examination of our failure to effectively integrate the British Muslim community.
Yes, such an inquiry would face accusations of racism. But this is not about racism, it is about realism. Britain is home to dozens of different races. Each has their own unique culture. Many have their own religions. All have experienced prejudice, stigmatisation and discrimination. Yet none have had the same issues in integrating with their host society as Britain’s Muslims.
Most people in the UK who are Muslims live a normal life, just like any other British resident. But there are a lot of younger people who have grown up with access to extremist materials and preachings, which needs to be dealt with. How you deal with this, needs to be carefully considered.
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Mr. Charles, if I read you correctly, I think you finally get there in the last paragraph - cut them off from state support. Osborne's salami slicing will never produce the savings that are necessary. HMG has to withdraw from areas that it does not need to be involved in and seriously rationalise its expenditure for those remaining areas.Charles said:
Well, they cut the grant-in-aid by 20%. (£100m) and eliminated additional overheads. A chunk of the remainder (something like £100m) is committed to support the major international institutions (eg the NG, the NPG, etc). While I'd prefer those organisations to be allowed to diversify their revenue streams, the government, in its infinite wisdom, has decided that charging may not even be dreamt about. So, in theory, you could eliminate the remaining £250m - but at the cost of doing massive damage to the UK's cultural sector. The cuts have already forced the ACE to be much more thoughtful about that they do - and are say you could probably squeeze them an additional £50m or so - but equally we have an obligation to beautify society as well. By comparison, £250m would be about 0.15% of the NHS's annual budget - so easy to find.
The problem is so large you need to hit the big numbers otherwise it all becomes a futile exercise.
(Although the best option, IMHO, would be to give the NG, etc £3bn as a foundation and then cut them off from state support). Fund it from relatively cheap debt and then eliminate the ongoing financial obligation
As for the arts specifically, well we are told that there are lots more billionaires and millionaires in this country than ever before. They can fund them if they want to. You can't move at Glyndebourne for big motor cars and people willing to spend vast sums on inferior fizzy plonk, let them pay an extra £10 a ticket or whatever. Re-introduce museum fees would be another good move, the places are now over-run with tourists if they were paying a few quid ahead they would cover their costs easily.0 -
I believe they are - it's the estimated number of Quality Adjusted Life Years that the treatment will give you vs the cost. Look at the NICE website.HurstLlama said:
It is interesting how these judgements of worth are made and, perhaps, somewhat sinister that they are not made public.Charles said:
Believe the standard government value of a young adult is £1m. A child could be more, ppose but don't know.Pulpstar said:
Key word here - advisingbondegezou said:advising against therapies that may offer hope, but don't offer any realistic probability of actually helping.
The proton treatment may well not work, could well be a waste of £100,000... but the parents can try it if they wish to do so.
THere is an interesting question here - how much does the NHS value the child's life, and how much do the parents. To the parents I would suggest their son's life has an almost infinite monetary worth, and so even if the chances of survival are raised from 0.1% to 0.11% by the proton beam treatment which would value his life at £1Bn - that is a price worth paying for the parents. Clearly the NHS could not afford to value each life at (effectively) £1 Bn as it just doesn't have that much money.
The 0.1 and 0.11% chances I have made up (Perhaps it is 30%/35% ?) but there simply must have to be a value placed on people's lives in the NHS, as heartless as it sounds. It could be the marginal benefit of this treatment is simply not cost effective.
My kidneys went splat when I was in my forties and without any hesitation or even a conversation with me I was put on the transplant list, which thank God turned out to be unnecessary. A few months ago, nearly twenty years later, on one of my check up visits I was chatting about that with the quack and he said well you wouldn't be put on the list today, you are retired.
I have no complaint about the decision, kidneys are in short supply and they should go to the people who can make best use of them. I just wonder whether the NHS rationing schemes shouldn't be made public.
The £1m I remember from the debate about the cost of implementing safety improvements post Paddington: a £250m investment needs to save 250 lives over its lifetime to be worthwhile, etc0 -
Agreed the parents should be released and court/police actions stopped. They should concentrate their efforts in making sure a 5 year old boy receives the best healthcare they can. This may not be in the UK, however great we think the NHS is. The NHS hospital and local council appear to have ignored the rights of the parents, believing the parents actions were not in the interest of the child. Perhaps the hospital Doctors communications and actions were not as good as they should have been.AndyJS said:"Suzanne Evans
@SuzanneEvans1
Ashya King's parents should be freed now, says Ukip MEP Atkinson http://shar.es/117jS6 via @BelTel"
twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/506423908719816707
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Socrates said:
Because I don't soak up the information from crank websites and the Kremlin's propaganda outlets? Laughable.
And how reliable are our own homegrown outlets? I showed you that not a single UK media outlet reported the explosive story of Turkey's proposed false flag attack and invasion of Syria. In response all you could find was an outlet outside UK jurisdiction. There has been wall to wall coverage of Syria's chemical weapons attacks, the Malaysian Airline's downing etc., all banging the drums of war, then the stories quietly dropped when it became obvious that the evidence pointed to neither Assad in the first case, nor Putin in the second.
Then there was that 'crank' site where you challenged something written about flouride in the water -evidence was for their claim found in about 5 minutes.
The most ridiculous thing is, according the agenda of our mass media, *you* are a crank. As a UKIP supporter you have been on the receiving end of our 'free press' -surely you can join the dots and see that if they're prepared to be utterly unscrupulous in their editorial policies toward a legitimate political party, they would have no compunction in being cheerleaders for NATO. I'm constantly astonished by your utter failure to see the (gaping) flaws in our own media coverage of recent international events. An anti-establishment firebrand at home, a craven neocon abroad -it can only end in profound disillusionment.0
![[Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/d2ea526b1b06ed109333f390c7ae956b_100.png)
