Several bookies are offering a market on which Premier League club will sign the most players today, deadline day, before the summer transfer window closes at 11.00pm tonight. Crystal Palace are known to be chasing 3,4 or even 5 players and if the logistics of actually doing the deals hold up, they look very much the justified favourites at odds of 5/2 with Betfred, Ladbrokes and Hills. DYOR.
It seems pretty obvious that Farage et al have spotted a gap in the market for a nasty product - a racist p00f-hating 1950s tribute loony party - and have cynically filled it, aiming simply to trouser as much lo££y as possible for as long as possible.
Laughably desperate.
And tragic that after we've all seen the damage in Rotherham of throwing the racist card about, people are still doing it to smear their political opponents.
I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
Absolute rubbish.
If an ill child goes missing from hospital, do you expect the hospital just to sit on its hands and do nothing?
If a hospital reported a child missing to the police, how do you expect the police to react? If the police find the boy's been taken abroad, do you honestly say they should not have tried tracking them down?
JJ
Are you sure that the child was actually missing or had been taken out of hospital by its parents who were in disagreement with the doctors at that hospital.
On Today R4 this morning, a reputable oncologist from another hospital said that in such cases the NHS often refers such cases for treatment outside of the UK as the NHS does not have the required facilities.
From what I heard on the radio when it was first reported, the boy was discovered missing. The impression was (and whether this is correct or not, goodness knows) they did not know where the boy was at that time. Only later was it discovered they'd got on a cross-channel ferry.
The NHS may refer such cases for treatment outside the UK; a referral is very different to the parents taking their child. For one thing, would the new treatment centre have all the child's medical records and history?
Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) 01/09/2014 07:41 "Cameron increasingly looks like a man of straw, driven into ill-considered decisions." @trevor_kavanagh today bit.ly/1qTuNZN
Makes you wonder if the Sun might back UKIP in the GE2015...
I’m in the business of changing people’s lives, not offering them false hope. That’s why I get so angry when Alex Salmond and the Nationalists dismiss legitimate questions about the currency and our economy. These aren’t debating points – this is about people’s lives.
I can see her point since she's the MP for a constituency with some of the lowest life and health outcomes in Western Europe. One might ask how the 70 odd years the constituency (or its equivalent) returned a Labour mp helped these peoples' lives. No doubt she'll blame any deficit on the 2 years the SNP held the seat.
Look on the bright side - the SNP Government are copying Westminster and introducing private provision of services :
Alex Salmond accused of 'hypocrisy' over warnings about privatisation of NHS Scotland's First Minister is criticised for claiming the health service would be saved from privatisation by a yes vote after it emerged Glasgow's health bosses have awarded a big private contract
On "straws in the wind" just had a lifelong and very tribal Glasgow Labour friend come out for Yes - more despite the SNP (which he heartily loathes) than because of it....
I think the Scottish NHS use of private suppliers has risen this year from 0.6% to 0.9%, a razor thin end of the wedge. However I still deplore it.
Re. your friend, the recurring phrase of my canvassing, discussions with friends etc is 'I wouldn't vote for Salmond or the SNP in a million years, but...'
I think the Scottish NHS use of private suppliers has risen this year from 0.6% to 0.9%, a razor thin end of the wedge. However I still deplore it.
Scotland better avoid trying to become a Nordic society then, as private suppliers are widely used across Scandinavia... there goes another part of the SNP vision for independence.
I’m in the business of changing people’s lives, not offering them false hope. That’s why I get so angry when Alex Salmond and the Nationalists dismiss legitimate questions about the currency and our economy. These aren’t debating points – this is about people’s lives.
I can see her point since she's the MP for a constituency with some of the lowest life and health outcomes in Western Europe. One might ask how the 70 odd years the constituency (or its equivalent) returned a Labour mp helped these peoples' lives. No doubt she'll blame any deficit on the 2 years the SNP held the seat.
Look on the bright side - the SNP Government are copying Westminster and introducing private provision of services :
Alex Salmond accused of 'hypocrisy' over warnings about privatisation of NHS Scotland's First Minister is criticised for claiming the health service would be saved from privatisation by a yes vote after it emerged Glasgow's health bosses have awarded a big private contract
On "straws in the wind" just had a lifelong and very tribal Glasgow Labour friend come out for Yes - more despite the SNP (which he heartily loathes) than because of it....
I think the Scottish NHS use of private suppliers has risen this year from 0.6% to 0.9%
That's a 50% increase!
(albeit from half of bugger all to three quarters.....)
Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) 01/09/2014 07:41 "Cameron increasingly looks like a man of straw, driven into ill-considered decisions." @trevor_kavanagh today bit.ly/1qTuNZN
Makes you wonder if the Sun might back UKIP in the GE2015...
The Sun backs winners.....so Redward it may well be.
I suspect we are still quite some way off a UKIP government.....
I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
Absolute rubbish.
If an ill child goes missing from hospital, do you expect the hospital just to sit on its hands and do nothing?
If a hospital reported a child missing to the police, how do you expect the police to react? If the police find the boy's been taken abroad, do you honestly say they should not have tried tracking them down?
JJ
Are you sure that the child was actually missing or had been taken out of hospital by its parents who were in disagreement with the doctors at that hospital.
On Today R4 this morning, a reputable oncologist from another hospital said that in such cases the NHS often refers such cases for treatment outside of the UK as the NHS does not have the required facilities.
From what I heard on the radio when it was first reported, the boy was discovered missing. The impression was (and whether this is correct or not, goodness knows) they did not know where the boy was at that time. Only later was it discovered they'd got on a cross-channel ferry.
The NHS may refer such cases for treatment outside the UK; a referral is very different to the parents taking their child. For one thing, would the new treatment centre have all the child's medical records and history?
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
An aside: compare and contrast the police action over the Kings to that of South Yorkshire over the Rotherham disgrace. Seeking medical treatment for a child (albeit without informing the hospital first) seems to get more attention than raping children in care.
The lack of media follow-up to the Rotherham disgrace is also depressing.
Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) 01/09/2014 07:41 "Cameron increasingly looks like a man of straw, driven into ill-considered decisions." @trevor_kavanagh today bit.ly/1qTuNZN
Makes you wonder if the Sun might back UKIP in the GE2015...
The Sun backs winners.....so Redward it may well be.
I suspect we are still quite some way off a UKIP government.....
I can't see how the Sun can back labour given the current situation over press etc. The Sun backs winners which will give them influence, and Miliband will hardly give that.
If the Sun see's a chance to help bring in UKIP MPs, then that will be much more valuable to them in the long term.
"Let the market take over health care!" declared a 1997 headline in Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's leading daily newspaper, with a circulation of around 350,000. Surprisingly, this quote didn't come from an economist or a right-wing policy wonk; it came from the chairwoman of Sweden's National Union of Nurses, Eva Fernvall. The majority of her union's 120,000 members backs her "health care pluralism," mostly out of self-interest – under Sweden's nationalized system, nurses had been stiffed on wages.
This openness to market solutions for medicine, remarkable in a health-sector union whose counterparts in North America and the rest of Europe fiercely oppose them, didn't come about by accident. Eight years ago in Stockholm, a centre-right coalition holding power on the Greater Council – the regional governing authority – decided to try a little competition to stimulate the Swedish capital's underperforming civic service monopolies. For more than two years, the Greater Council licensed private providers in parts of the government sector. The result: Competitive contracting of public transit in greater Stockholm has cut taxpayer costs by roughly 25%, and its ambulance service costs have dropped 15%. Meanwhile, overall service quality has increased noticeably.
... on the tail of the mysterious egg-thrower. ...
Jim Murphy's main accusation against Yes Scotland is not that he was prevented from speaking,but he and the public face organised intimidation laid on by sections within the Yes Scotland campaign. Alex Salmond came on yesterday to condemn intimidation in general, which is progress of sorts, but ruined the effect by conflating organised intimidation by his campaign with a death threat against him by a lone lunatic, and saying I don't make a big fuss about it.
The typical attitude displayed by "cybnernats" over the last couple of days is that Jim Murphy gets what he deserves because, in their view, he's a miserable specimen of a human being. There's a massive arrogance to think that you get the right to prevent your opponents speaking and the public to listen, if they want to.
Another one that does not like democracy and would have free speech banned. What a plank.
Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) 01/09/2014 07:41 "Cameron increasingly looks like a man of straw, driven into ill-considered decisions." @trevor_kavanagh today bit.ly/1qTuNZN
Makes you wonder if the Sun might back UKIP in the GE2015...
What's Uncle Rupert's view of the EU? I daresay he's fairly hostile. And James probably thinks UKIP a bit leftie.
A little bird tells me that, in addition to the police, at least one investigative journalist is on the tail of the mysterious egg-thrower. Word on the street is that the guy is not an opponent of Jim Murphy.
If you recognise any of the people in the photos, please inform the police.
One of the people I was canvassing with yesterday was there with Jim Murphy on the day of the egg incident and had been for a while. It was extremely unpleasant with a strong undertone of violence on many occasions as can be seen in the Youtube video and Murphy was eventually told to stop campaigning on police advice. Why these idiots think this is helping the Yes campaign is truly beyond me.
Murphy is very unpleasant so he should have felt at home. If he goes about spouting lies in public he should be able to take being hit with an egg. A big unionist jessie.
I'm not particularly a fan of Murphy, but whenever I hear his name I think of the Clutha Bar incident last year. His reaction was genuinely moving.
Nothing to do with his political position though, he is a thoroughly unpleasant politician and would lie to his granny. He may be nice outside politics but freedom of speech should not be suspended just because he was involved in Clutha.
One reason the political class is not hearing the debate properly is that, on each side, there are mismatched political leaderships and tin-eared campaign groups. On the yes side, many of the young people I spoke to despise Alex Salmond. On the no side, it's fair to say Alistair Darling is not hugely representative of a coalition that includes people from the Orange lodges and the Scottish Tories, and the gay clubbers I met who were firm no voters.
If, on the morning of 19 September, we wake up and that 4/1 horse of independence has come in, the levels of shock in official circles will be extreme. The Conservatives will have presided over the breakup of the Union. Even compared with handing Zimbabwe to Zanu-PF, and Hong Kong to the Chinese Communist party, that will be a major psychological moment.
Even more traumatised will be Labour. The prospect of a majority Labour government at Westminster after 2016 will be remote. The party in Scotland will likely go into meltdown, with a Podemos-style left emerging among the pro-independence Labour camp, the Greens and the progressives around groups like Common Weal.
An aside: compare and contrast the police action over the Kings to that of South Yorkshire over the Rotherham disgrace. Seeking medical treatment for a child (albeit without informing the hospital first) seems to get more attention than raping children in care.
The lack of media follow-up to the Rotherham disgrace is also depressing.
Had the media really moved on from this story already?
An aside: compare and contrast the police action over the Kings to that of South Yorkshire over the Rotherham disgrace. Seeking medical treatment for a child (albeit without informing the hospital first) seems to get more attention than raping children in care.
The lack of media follow-up to the Rotherham disgrace is also depressing.
It's obscene. The NHS couldn't cover the proton beam treatment for their son so they went to Spain to sell their property so they could afford to get the treatment privately in Eastern Europe. Now the UK government is extraditing them to the UK - based on no evidence whatsoever - while their son continues to not get the proton beam treatment. Their son remains in a Spanish hospital, separated from his family. Meanwhile their whole personal ordeal has been splashed across the papers.
On my way to the Rhineland. Just popping by to say what a pleasure it is, being able to count malcolmg and Roger as keen and regular readers of my Telegraph blogs.
Every time they visit, my stats improve, and I make more money.
Thanks guys!
If they'd have just viewed it on Google cache, they could have avoided giving you the hits!
Socrates , he is kidding himself if he thinks I read it on the Telegraph.
I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
Absolute rubbish.
If an ill child goes missing from hospital, do you expect the hospital just to sit on its hands and do nothing?
If a hospital reported a child missing to the police, how do you expect the police to react? If the police find the boy's been taken abroad, do you honestly say they should not have tried tracking them down?
JJ
Are you sure that the child was actually missing or had been taken out of hospital by its parents who were in disagreement with the doctors at that hospital.
On Today R4 this morning, a reputable oncologist from another hospital said that in such cases the NHS often refers such cases for treatment outside of the UK as the NHS does not have the required facilities.
From what I heard on the radio when it was first reported, the boy was discovered missing. The impression was (and whether this is correct or not, goodness knows) they did not know where the boy was at that time. Only later was it discovered they'd got on a cross-channel ferry.
The NHS may refer such cases for treatment outside the UK; a referral is very different to the parents taking their child. For one thing, would the new treatment centre have all the child's medical records and history?
The parents are being charged with neglect for making the decision to take their childs health into their own hands by removing the child form a British hospital, & selling a property in Spain to pay for treatment in the Czech Republic
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
From a BBC report:
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
Mr. Sulphate, have you heard much of it today or yesterday?
F1: from the BBC gossip colum, it sounds like the New Jersey race is off due to lack of money. Good. It would've been another tedious street circuit in a country which already has a race (and a rather good one at that).
Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal - Panorama
Today on BBC1 from 8:30pm to 9:00pm
Panorama investigates why the police and council ignored warnings about the abuse that affected more than 14 hundred children.
Speaking of which, SeanT's comment on the subject in the Telegraph tops 2,000 shares. - I doubt Panorama will have reached the same conclusions however.
Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal - Panorama
Today on BBC1 from 8:30pm to 9:00pm
Panorama investigates why the police and council ignored warnings about the abuse that affected more than 14 hundred children.
Speaking of which, SeanT's comment on the subject in the Telegraph tops 2,000 shares. - I doubt Panorama will have reached the same conclusions however.
Patriotism is morally vicious. That's why Sean Thomas was unable to quote any of the world's great religious leaders in support of his argument.
What an absurd argument. Most 'great' religious leaders are in international organisations so wish to play down national identity. Plenty of great men, from Abraham Lincoln to William Wilberforce, were patriots.
Well, I agree with your quotation marks. Neither Lincoln nor Wilberforce would have seen themselves as a religious leader. You might have quoted Gandhi against me: Hinduism is probably the least "internationalist" (to use your word) of religions - you can't convert to it, you have to be born into it.
I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
I am not up to speed on this but one of the headlines I saw said that the parents are Jehovah's Witnesses, who AIUI oppose (eg) blood transfusions. Is the issue here that their idea of "being looked after properly" excludes some significant aspect of the treatment?
My first conclusion is that they refused a blood transfusion or whatnot - but the issue is that they want to try a "proton beam" therapy which doctors here will say have no effect (The parents want to give it a try anyway)
The family have bought the wheelchair and the feedtube that Ashya needs for his care and it seems are prepared to fund the £100k cost for his treatment.
I think cases such as this have to be judged individually, and it seems that legally the family were entitled to take the boy from the hospital and "morally" they are just trying to do the best for their son.
It seems to my mind an arrest warrant is both legally and morally wrong here, certainly now they are in contact and realise they are on shaky legal ground and the fact the child is safe and well and the parents are obviously seeking treatment the extradition hearing should be dropped forthwith.
Tom Newton Dunn (@tnewtondunn) 01/09/2014 07:41 "Cameron increasingly looks like a man of straw, driven into ill-considered decisions." @trevor_kavanagh today bit.ly/1qTuNZN
Makes you wonder if the Sun might back UKIP in the GE2015...
What's Uncle Rupert's view of the EU? I daresay he's fairly hostile. And James probably thinks UKIP a bit leftie.
The Murdochs are currently trying to merge BSkyB, Sky Italia, and Sky Deutchland to create Sky Europe. (I suspect they'd like to add Canal Plus in France to that as well). This would enable them to tie up pan-European rights for Sports and Movies.
A cross border merger of this size, which would create a dominant purchaser of media rights across the EU, requires both national and EU approval.
I think their desire to create Sky Europe is greater than their desire to make a political point.)
(As an aside, James Murdoch is much less rightwing than his dad, and is a little bit 'green'.)
I’m in the business of changing people’s lives, not offering them false hope. That’s why I get so angry when Alex Salmond and the Nationalists dismiss legitimate questions about the currency and our economy. These aren’t debating points – this is about people’s lives.
I can see her point since she's the MP for a constituency with some of the lowest life and health outcomes in Western Europe. One might ask how the 70 odd years the constituency (or its equivalent) returned a Labour mp helped these peoples' lives. No doubt she'll blame any deficit on the 2 years the SNP held the seat.
Look on the bright side - the SNP Government are copying Westminster and introducing private provision of services :
Alex Salmond accused of 'hypocrisy' over warnings about privatisation of NHS Scotland's First Minister is criticised for claiming the health service would be saved from privatisation by a yes vote after it emerged Glasgow's health bosses have awarded a big private contract
On "straws in the wind" just had a lifelong and very tribal Glasgow Labour friend come out for Yes - more despite the SNP (which he heartily loathes) than because of it....
I think the Scottish NHS use of private suppliers has risen this year from 0.6% to 0.9%
a 50% increase!
I believe that was the headline in the Tele, Scotsman etc.
I’m in the business of changing people’s lives, not offering them false hope. That’s why I get so angry when Alex Salmond and the Nationalists dismiss legitimate questions about the currency and our economy. These aren’t debating points – this is about people’s lives.
I can see her point since she's the MP for a constituency with some of the lowest life and health outcomes in Western Europe. One might ask how the 70 odd years the constituency (or its equivalent) returned a Labour mp helped these peoples' lives. No doubt she'll blame any deficit on the 2 years the SNP held the seat.
Look on the bright side - the SNP Government are copying Westminster and introducing private provision of services :
Alex Salmond accused of 'hypocrisy' over warnings about privatisation of NHS Scotland's First Minister is criticised for claiming the health service would be saved from privatisation by a yes vote after it emerged Glasgow's health bosses have awarded a big private contract
On "straws in the wind" just had a lifelong and very tribal Glasgow Labour friend come out for Yes - more despite the SNP (which he heartily loathes) than because of it....
As we have said it is NOT about the SNP. Unionists just do not seem to be able to grasp that.
So the people who have rightly berated the police and authorities for not taking action to protect children thought to be at risk in Rotherham are now berating the police and authorities for taking action to protect a child thought to be at risk in a place unknown. The difference being that the latter involves a process originating in the EU... well it's a view I guess.
Mr. Sulphate, have you heard much of it today or yesterday?
F1: from the BBC gossip colum, it sounds like the New Jersey race is off due to lack of money. Good. It would've been another tedious street circuit in a country which already has a race (and a rather good one at that).
I live abroad so I don't always know what is happening in the media. Normally big stories last about 3-5 weeks, I remember the pasty story going on for over a month. If the media have dropped this after a couple of days then that's pretty depressing.
How does the UK’s situation differ from other West European countries. Do Germans, French etc, once elected to their respective Parliaments find themselves treated in this fashion?
I really can't say. Maybe Nick could give some input on this.
My vague impression is that they are generally regarded as more prestigious and respected. The collateral damage done by the expenses scandals in this country has clearly had a significant long term impact.
Most European countries seem to have a significant number of ministers who are not a part of the Parliament. They are accountable to it but not in it. We use the Lords for this of course but I wonder if we should think about allowing governments to appoint more technocrats like the excellent Andrew Adonis without giving them silly titles?
MPs are reasonably respected in most countries - you get the same talk about "politicians not listening" etc. but the individuals are treated as interesting people doing a worthwhile job. You do still get that in Britain at a personal level - people still stop me in the street to wish me luck and say I tried to help them 10 years ago, do I remember? (Sadly the truthful answer is often no.) But they conclude that because their local MP or ex-MP apparently isn't a scoundrel, "it must be tough being with all those other scoundrels".
To put a serious response to flockers' brilliant piece - reasons to like being an MP are:
* You aren't there for yourself, any more than any of us bother to vote hoping for personal benefit. You're there because you think your party, movement or strain of thought will improve the country or even the world. A life without being part of a cause is limited, and being an MP you've making a reasonably significant contribution.
* The direct positive feedback is huge. You can help about half the people who come to your surgeries, just by being a well-connected well-educated champion for people in difficulty. They are generally really, really nice about it. Sure, it's not in the job description, but it's satisfying anyway.
* The whole of public policy is open to you to explore. Whatever your interests, you have unrivalled research facilities and a platform to express whatever conclusions you reach. Everyone has partly-baked ideas on what should be done on this or that. As an MP, you can take the time to make them fully-baked and potentially (that's the rub) get them part of what is actually implemented.
I have an interesting job doing something important to me which has lots of travel and variety. If I'm elected I'll take a pay cut again and a more uncertain situation. I don't care.
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
From a BBC report:
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
"Let the market take over health care!" declared a 1997 headline in Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's leading daily newspaper, with a circulation of around 350,000. Surprisingly, this quote didn't come from an economist or a right-wing policy wonk; it came from the chairwoman of Sweden's National Union of Nurses, Eva Fernvall. The majority of her union's 120,000 members backs her "health care pluralism," mostly out of self-interest – under Sweden's nationalized system, nurses had been stiffed on wages.
This openness to market solutions for medicine, remarkable in a health-sector union whose counterparts in North America and the rest of Europe fiercely oppose them, didn't come about by accident. Eight years ago in Stockholm, a centre-right coalition holding power on the Greater Council – the regional governing authority – decided to try a little competition to stimulate the Swedish capital's underperforming civic service monopolies. For more than two years, the Greater Council licensed private providers in parts of the government sector. The result: Competitive contracting of public transit in greater Stockholm has cut taxpayer costs by roughly 25%, and its ambulance service costs have dropped 15%. Meanwhile, overall service quality has increased noticeably.
A very interesting article Mr. Socrates, thanks for sharing it with us. So many parallels with our own health service from both Sweden and Canada.
This bit from the final paragraph struck me, "politicians prepare to toss billions more dollars into our own besieged medicare system – despite evidence that more money without structural reform will have little appreciable positive effect on patient outcomes". Exactly what we did in the early years of this century.
Mr. 56, the parents should've informed the hospital.
I fail to see why you're criticising the view that it's insane more police action has been taken to arrest two parents taking their own child than over 1,400 cases of sexual abuse against children.
Mr. Sulphate, quite. The pasty bullshit got more sustained attention, as did the yacht nonsense.
Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal - Panorama
Today on BBC1 from 8:30pm to 9:00pm
Panorama investigates why the police and council ignored warnings about the abuse that affected more than 14 hundred children.
Speaking of which, SeanT's comment on the subject in the Telegraph tops 2,000 shares. - I doubt Panorama will have reached the same conclusions however.
Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal - Panorama
Today on BBC1 from 8:30pm to 9:00pm
Panorama investigates why the police and council ignored warnings about the abuse that affected more than 14 hundred children.
Speaking of which, SeanT's comment on the subject in the Telegraph tops 2,000 shares. - I doubt Panorama will have reached the same conclusions however.
Patriotism is morally vicious. That's why Sean Thomas was unable to quote any of the world's great religious leaders in support of his argument.
What an absurd argument. Most 'great' religious leaders are in international organisations so wish to play down national identity. Plenty of great men, from Abraham Lincoln to William Wilberforce, were patriots.
Well, I agree with your quotation marks. Neither Lincoln nor Wilberforce would have seen themselves as a religious leader. You might have quoted Gandhi against me: Hinduism is probably the least "internationalist" (to use your word) of religions - you can't convert to it, you have to be born into it.
I didn't call Lincoln or Wilberforce religious leaders. I claimed the religious bit was irrelevant and that once you removed that criteria, there were lots of great leaders that qualified.
"Let the market take over health care!" declared a 1997 headline in Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's leading daily newspaper, with a circulation of around 350,000. Surprisingly, this quote didn't come from an economist or a right-wing policy wonk; it came from the chairwoman of Sweden's National Union of Nurses, Eva Fernvall. The majority of her union's 120,000 members backs her "health care pluralism," mostly out of self-interest – under Sweden's nationalized system, nurses had been stiffed on wages.
This openness to market solutions for medicine, remarkable in a health-sector union whose counterparts in North America and the rest of Europe fiercely oppose them, didn't come about by accident. Eight years ago in Stockholm, a centre-right coalition holding power on the Greater Council – the regional governing authority – decided to try a little competition to stimulate the Swedish capital's underperforming civic service monopolies. For more than two years, the Greater Council licensed private providers in parts of the government sector. The result: Competitive contracting of public transit in greater Stockholm has cut taxpayer costs by roughly 25%, and its ambulance service costs have dropped 15%. Meanwhile, overall service quality has increased noticeably.
A very interesting article Mr. Socrates, thanks for sharing it with us. So many parallels with our own health service from both Sweden and Canada.
This bit from the final paragraph struck me, "politicians prepare to toss billions more dollars into our own besieged medicare system – despite evidence that more money without structural reform will have little appreciable positive effect on patient outcomes". Exactly what we did in the early years of this century.
Sweden also did a very good job of 'commercialising' its railways.
I don't believe that the hospital has done anything wrong. It's the police I'm criticising. It was right for the hospital to take their duty of care seriously and alert the police. The police should have then raised the alarm and tried to track down the parents (since they know the kid was in their custody). What is wrong is the issue of an arrest warrant and the subsequent arrest and extradition of his parents. A proper extradition system with adequate checks would have stopped this.
I think the case of a very ill childs parents being treated by Police as criminals, will make the UK look really cruel and heartless. If parents have been driven to take a child from an NHS hospital, because they did not feel they were being looked after properly, it could indicate very poor communications by the Doctors concerned. Now the hospital are saying that alternative treatment will be considered, but I wonder whether they have been made to do this, due to what has happened.
I am not up to speed on this but one of the headlines I saw said that the parents are Jehovah's Witnesses, who AIUI oppose (eg) blood transfusions. Is the issue here that their idea of "being looked after properly" excludes some significant aspect of the treatment?
My first conclusion is that they refused a blood transfusion or whatnot - but the issue is that they want to try a "proton beam" therapy which doctors here will say have no effect (The parents want to give it a try anyway)
The family have bought the wheelchair and the feedtube that Ashya needs for his care and it seems are prepared to fund the £100k cost for his treatment.
I think cases such as this have to be judged individually, and it seems that legally the family were entitled to take the boy from the hospital and "morally" they are just trying to do the best for their son.
It seems to my mind an arrest warrant is both legally and morally wrong here, certainly now they are in contact and realise they are on shaky legal ground and the fact the child is safe and well and the parents are obviously seeking treatment the extradition hearing should be dropped forthwith.
Why did the parents not tell the hospital what they were doing? (presuming they did not) Why were they uncontactable when it was first clear he went missing and the hospital tried to contact them? Why flee to France?
It's clear they had not organised the proton beam treatment: they were 'hoping' to get it in the Czech Republic. (1) Which, it should be added, is in the opposite direction from Spain.
I fail to see, given the parents' actions, what else the hospital or police could have done. The boy's safety was paramount, and they could not be sure that the boy was safe.
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
So the people who have rightly berated the police and authorities for not taking action to protect children thought to be at risk in Rotherham are now berating the police and authorities for taking action to protect a child thought to be at risk in a place unknown. The difference being that the latter involves a process originating in the EU... well it's a view I guess.
No, the difference is that the children in Rotherham were with adult strangers that were raping them, while the child in this case is with his legal guardians trying to get him better healthcare treatment. I would have thought this difference was bloody obvious.
Mr. 56, the parents should've informed the hospital.
I fail to see why you're criticising the view that it's insane more police action has been taken to arrest two parents taking their own child than over 1,400 cases of sexual abuse against children.
Mr. Sulphate, quite. The pasty bullshit got more sustained attention, as did the yacht nonsense.
I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist, but the timing of the UKIP defection does seem a little odd doesn't it?
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
From a BBC report:
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
Whilst in hospital , the parents remain the legal guardians of a child unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over the legal guardianship of that child . Therefore your statement that the parents had been "allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period of time " is legally false . As legal guardians they did not need the hospital's permission to remove him whether for a short period of time or permanently .
I don't believe that the hospital has done anything wrong. It's the police I'm criticising. It was right for the hospital to take their duty of care seriously and alert the police. The police should have then raised the alarm and tried to track down the parents (since they know the kid was in their custody). What is wrong is the issue of an arrest warrant and the subsequent arrest and extradition of his parents. A proper extradition system with adequate checks would have stopped this.
Did they 'know' the child was in the parents' custody, at least at first? Could they be sure? Did they know that the parents had the child's best interests at heart? Might there have been an accident?
It's a mess, and no-one would want to be in the current position. But breaking it all down step-by-step as it probably happened, then it seems clear that the authorities did the right thing at every stage.
So the people who have rightly berated the police and authorities for not taking action to protect children thought to be at risk in Rotherham are now berating the police and authorities for taking action to protect a child thought to be at risk in a place unknown. The difference being that the latter involves a process originating in the EU... well it's a view I guess.
No, the difference is that the children in Rotherham were with adult strangers that were raping them, while the child in this case is with his legal guardians trying to get him better healthcare treatment. I would have thought this difference was bloody obvious.
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
Another stonking Osborne success.
Cue a list of apologists telling us why this is tremendous news.
His worry must now be can he keep the ship upright until May next year.
I don't believe that the hospital has done anything wrong. It's the police I'm criticising. It was right for the hospital to take their duty of care seriously and alert the police. The police should have then raised the alarm and tried to track down the parents (since they know the kid was in their custody). What is wrong is the issue of an arrest warrant and the subsequent arrest and extradition of his parents. A proper extradition system with adequate checks would have stopped this.
Did they 'know' the child was in the parents' custody, at least at first? Could they be sure? Did they know that the parents had the child's best interests at heart? Might there have been an accident?
It's a mess, and no-one would want to be in the current position. But breaking it all down step-by-step as it probably happened, then it seems clear that the authorities did the right thing at every stage.
For once.
They were publicly advertising on the news that the child was with his parents when they said they were applying for the arrest warrant, so yes.
And right now, we know what the parents were trying to do, and we're still extraditing them. It's incredible.
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
From a BBC report:
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
Whilst in hospital , the parents remain the legal guardians of a child unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over the legal guardianship of that child . Therefore your statement that the parents had been "allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period of time " is legally false . As legal guardians they did not need the hospital's permission to remove him wither for a short period of time or permanently .
But the hospital have a duty of care towards the patient. If a patient goes missing, especially when unwell, then the hospital has to try to find out where they are and if they are safe.
Your alternative seems to be that patients can just disappear off wards with no follow-up. I'm not sure that's a good idea.
I don't believe that the hospital has done anything wrong. It's the police I'm criticising. It was right for the hospital to take their duty of care seriously and alert the police. The police should have then raised the alarm and tried to track down the parents (since they know the kid was in their custody). What is wrong is the issue of an arrest warrant and the subsequent arrest and extradition of his parents. A proper extradition system with adequate checks would have stopped this.
Did they 'know' the child was in the parents' custody, at least at first? Could they be sure? Did they know that the parents had the child's best interests at heart? Might there have been an accident?
It's a mess, and no-one would want to be in the current position. But breaking it all down step-by-step as it probably happened, then it seems clear that the authorities did the right thing at every stage.
For once.
As far as I remember, it was known from the start that the parents had taken him. There was never a chance that he had been abducted by others
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.
Mr. 56, the parents should've informed the hospital.
I fail to see why you're criticising the view that it's insane more police action has been taken to arrest two parents taking their own child than over 1,400 cases of sexual abuse against children.
Mr. Sulphate, quite. The pasty bullshit got more sustained attention, as did the yacht nonsense.
Mr Dancer, I merely comment on what strikes me as a superficially inconsistent stance until one realises that the protagonist merely seeks the opportunity to push an agenda, namely that anything to do with the EU is to be criticised whatever the context. To be fair, this is consistent with Farage's response to the question why he never votes in the EP.
As a hypothetical, it would be interesting to see the response should the European arrest warrant be used to extradite a suspect in a Rotherham child sexual exploitation investigation...
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
JJ
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
Whilst in hospital , the parents remain the legal guardians of a child unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over the legal guardianship of that child . Therefore your statement that the parents had been "allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period of time " is legally false . As legal guardians they did not need the hospital's permission to remove him wither for a short period of time or permanently .
But the hospital have a duty of care towards the patient. If a patient goes missing, especially when unwell, then the hospital has to try to find out where they are and if they are safe.
Your alternative seems to be that patients can just disappear off wards with no follow-up. I'm not sure that's a good idea.
No one is suggesting the latter alternative. That's a complete strawman. We're not suggesting the authorities should have done nothing. They should absolutely have tried to find out what happened. But that's a big difference to arresting and extraditing parents, and splitting a sick child off from his legal guardians.
He said: "After that I realised I can't speak to the oncologist at all, because if I actually ask anything or give any doubt I wasn't in full accord with them, they were going to get a protection order which meant in his deepest, darkest hour I wouldn't be there to look after him, and neither would my wife - they would prevent us from entering the ward. "That's such a cruel system I decided I to start looking at the proton beam myself." He added: "We decided to try and sort it out ourselves but now we're refugees almost. "We can't do anything. The police are after us. The things we want to do to raise the money to pay for the proton beam, they've prevented it now." Mr King explained that the family had been intending to seek proton beam treatment for Ashya in the Czech Republic. "Proton beam is so much better for children with brain cancer," he said. "It zones in on the area, whereby normal radiation passes right through his head and comes out the other side and destroys everything in his head. "We pleaded with them (in Southampton) for proton beam treatment. They looked at me straight in the face and said with his cancer - which is called medulloblastoma - it would have no benefit whatsoever. "I went straight back to my room and looked it up and the American sites and French sites and Switzerland sites where they have proton beam said the opposite, it would be very beneficial for him."
Seems it was the hospital's way or the highway, the parents could not tell the hospital they were taking him as they would have been obstructed from doing so.
they were 'hoping' to get it in the Czech Republic. (1) Which, it should be added, is in the opposite direction from Spain.
Perhaps they have holidayed in Spain before and so are familiar with the area, and thus could use it as a base to attempt to raise cash for the treatment ?
The distance from Spain to Czech Republic isn't an issue, they can fly.
I fail to see, given the parents' actions, what else the hospital or police could have done. The boy's safety was paramount, and they could not be sure that the boy was safe.
Yes the hospital was correct to do everything in it's power to find him, but
Now he is safe, and well and had appropriate medical aids with him can the case not be dropped ?
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
From a BBC report:
A spokesman for the hospital, which contacted police six hours after they left, said: "Ashya was a long-term patient who was permitted to leave the ward under the supervision of his parents as part of his ongoing rehabilitation.
"When the length of time he had been absent became a cause of concern to staff yesterday afternoon they contacted police after a search of the site and attempts to contact the family were unsuccessful."
(1)
/blockquote>
Whilst in hospital , the parents remain the legal guardians of a child unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over the legal guardianship of that child . Therefore your statement that the parents had been "allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period of time " is legally false . As legal guardians they did not need the hospital's permission to remove him wither for a short period of time or permanently .
But the hospital have a duty of care towards the patient. If a patient goes missing, especially when unwell, then the hospital has to try to find out where they are and if they are safe.
Your alternative seems to be that patients can just disappear off wards with no follow-up. I'm not sure that's a good idea.
It may not be a good idea that patients can just discharge themselves ( or their parents can do so to a minor ) but that is the legal position ( unless as previously stated the hospital has applied for a court order to take over legal guardianship of a patient ) . Yes in unclear circumstances the hospital can and should report a missing patient to the police but to issue arrest warrants for someone who were legally entitled to remove someone in their guardianship lays both the hospital and the police open to being sued for substantial damages .
So the people who have rightly berated the police and authorities for not taking action to protect children thought to be at risk in Rotherham are now berating the police and authorities for taking action to protect a child thought to be at risk in a place unknown. The difference being that the latter involves a process originating in the EU... well it's a view I guess.
That's an incredible interpretation.
In Rotherham the police generally turned a blind eye even when the parents of some of the girls abused asked them to intervene. I this case, the police have taken actions that could lead to a child's parents not being with their son when he dies of cancer.
"... the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations. "
Really? In which document can this policy be found? Under what legislation are the police removed from their individual oaths of office and slavishly bound to some hidden policy?
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
JJ
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
Yeah it does seem a bit heavy handed.
At first it was a clear child protection issue. You can't go overruling your kids doctors just because you've done a bit of googling.
But now they've been found, and don't seem unreasonable, it seems like something that could be resolved over a cuppa rather than legal proceedings.
Mr. Sulphate, I don't think it was a conspiracy, just Carswell trying to save his political career, even if that meant a volte-face from what he'd been saying immediately beforehand. He's like a Roman army declaring Farage emperor. Even if he wins the battle, the real victor is the barbarian, or the Parthian/Persian Empire.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I'm struggling to see on what grounds the parents are being charged and extradited, to be honest.
NHS hospitals are not prisons and doctors are not jailers. If the parents of the boy want to take him out of NHS care and try something else that's a matter entirely for them. As long as the boy isn't being ill-treated/neglected (which he clearly isn't) then in my view it's entirely up to his guardians how they want his treatment to proceed.
Given he is reportedly terminally ill and the treatment being offered by the NHS can't cure him, I really can't see what is to be lost by trying this Proton Radiation Therapy.
It's a wretched situation all round, but the authorities have gone OTT, IMO.
Waiting for Populus- Should be our first real guide to where public opinion stands since "The Rights" decided it was going to destroy itself.
Expecting Labour to go above 40% in the polls this week.
Why would the Labour vote go above 40%. If a poll shows Labour over 40%, it will be a sample drawn from either the high side of the Margin of Error to the true position, or an 'outlier'.
I fully expect Labour seepage from now till the GE. But the Tories will ship just as much support and under our FPTP system they have more UKIP-vulnerable seats on the east coast. So the net benefit will be positive for Labour. THey ain't going to gain any MORE support from here on out though, the 2010 Lib Dems are fully priced into the Labour true position of ~ 35%.
Labour most seats coming in whilst they lose Rotherham would be damned funny come election night however.
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
Why did the parents not tell the hospital what they were doing? (presuming they did not) Why were they uncontactable when it was first clear he went missing and the hospital tried to contact them? Why flee to France?
Seems it was the hospital's way or the highway, the parents could not tell the hospital they were taking him as they would have been obstructed from doing so.
they were 'hoping' to get it in the Czech Republic. (1) Which, it should be added, is in the opposite direction from Spain.
Perhaps they have holidayed in Spain before and so are familiar with the area, and thus could use it as a base to attempt to raise cash for the treatment ?
The distance from Spain to Czech Republic isn't an issue, they can fly.
I fail to see, given the parents' actions, what else the hospital or police could have done. The boy's safety was paramount, and they could not be sure that the boy was safe.
Yes the hospital was correct to do everything in it's power to find him, but
Now he is safe, and well and had appropriate medical aids with him can the case not be dropped ?
I disagree with much of what you wrote above; for instance going to Spain with a seriously ill boy whilst they try to raise funds is nonsensical, as is your assumption that they could necessarily fly with a seriously ill child. Likewise, the father seems to think that the proton beam treatment would work and is pinning all his hopes on it, when the hospital and experts seemed to think it would not work.
You're also quoting the father's side of the story. It's quite possible that the hospital views the matter and events differently.
It's clear that all trust between parents and hospital broke down long before this. The question is why, and who was at fault?
Your last question is the most important one at the moment. What is the best thing for Ashya? Will the current court cases help him at all? From this distance we cannot tell, but it looks doubtful at the moment. That does not mean that the authorities did anything wrong in getting to this stage. Or that we have the whole story about why the authorities think it best to get him back.
You can't go overruling your kids doctors just because you've done a bit of googling.
Actually you can unless there's a court order against you. I know three separate cases among family and friends of parents overruling their doctors on their kids' treatment where the parents turned out to be right.
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
JJ
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
At first it was a clear child protection issue. You can't go overruling your kids doctors just because you've done a bit of googling.
The legal position is clear . Yes you can legally go overruling your kids doctors for whatever reason you like or no reason at all . You are the legal guardians unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over that legal guardianship .
I'm not getting the EAW angle on this Jehovah's Witness case. The objection is normally that it allows dodgy foreign police to snaffle people from Britain without due process, which may be right, but IIUC in this case it's British doing the snaffling, so if the parents had run away to Croydon instead of Spain it would have had the same result? In which case the argument is that we should generally throw sand in the gears of law enforcement because they often bollocks things up?
PS Given that the recent actions of the British police seem to range from ignoring thousands of child rape offences to trying to frame a cabinet minister, the argument that Britain should stay out of the EAW to make it easier for honest British citizens to escape from British law enforcement may have some merit...
Your last question is the most important one at the moment. What is the best thing for Ashya? Will the current court cases help him at all? From this distance we cannot tell, but it looks doubtful at the moment. That does not mean that the authorities did anything wrong in getting to this stage. Or that we have the whole story about why the authorities think it best to get him back.
From what @MarkSenior of this parish is saying it seems the parents are legally in the right at any rate.
Court cases will not help anyone in this position. All that is going to happen is that the Gov't are going to be landed with a big legal bill when they are sued or whatnot by the parents.
They knew that the boy's parents - his legal guardians - had been the ones that removed him from hospital. Questions over the appropriate dispersal of medical records are something for the parents to worry about. It's appalling that a sick child has been separated from his family and his parents arrested, when no crime has taking place.
they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
JJ
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
At first it was a clear child protection issue. You can't go overruling your kids doctors just because you've done a bit of googling.
The legal position is clear . Yes you can legally go overruling your kids doctors for whatever reason you like or no reason at all . You are the legal guardians unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over that legal guardianship .
Are you sure?
So you can, say, refuse to give your diabetic kid insulin because you think nettle soup is more effective, and it doesn't legally count as neglect of some sort?
If they had run away to Croydon, an arrest would have quickly proven to be stupid and they would have been released within hours as no crime has been committed. Extradition is something that takes days and their dying child is being separated from them long term as a result. Just wait until these parents get back to the UK - there's no way the police will be able to keep them in custody.
Mr. Sulphate, I don't think it was a conspiracy, just Carswell trying to save his political career, even if that meant a volte-face from what he'd been saying immediately beforehand. He's like a Roman army declaring Farage emperor. Even if he wins the battle, the real victor is the barbarian, or the Parthian/Persian Empire.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I don't understand why he couldn't have waited a week or two before jumping.
And how long will this child be delayed from getting the Proton Beam treatment in Czechia? This whole heavy-handedness could cost this child his life.
Having seen a few interviews with experts, they are saying that this Proton treatment may not be appropriate for the tumour location. It is a new form of treament and there are several medical test trials going on at the moment in the US.
But I accept that the parents should have more say on what happens to their child, than an NHS Doctor who is only offering one option i.e death. If the parents can gain expert treatment elsewhere it is their choice as parents.
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
I have no problem with the government continuing to fund the Arts Council, but if the government can't cut spending by enough in five years to balance the books it should at least have the honesty to raise taxes by enough to do so instead.
Yes , I am sure . This is why in some cases , Jehovahs Witnesses refusing blood transfusions for example , the hospital will apply for and get legal guardianship of a patient .
So you can, say, refuse to give your diabetic kid insulin because you think nettle soup is more effective, and it doesn't legally count as neglect of some sort?
Child neglect is a law of which you are guilty when it can be shown you have not met your child's basic needs as part of your duty of care. If your kid goes into, or is about to go into a diabetic coma then the police can show that is evidence of neglect. However, disagreement with doctors is not enough to show that. Taking your kid abroad for medical treatment certainly doesn't constitute neglect.
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
There are two sides to every story; people seem to be taking the father's words as gospel, yet I would not be surprised if the hospital have a very different take on what happened.
As I've said below, it's clear that all trust broke down between parents and hospital.
My main reactions have been to people claiming that the hospital and police did something wrong in the search. As I've argued below, I cannot see what else they could have done. It would be good if (and it is an 'if') the situation can now be resolved without recourse to legal means. But it is possible we do not have the whole story.
Mr. Sulphate, I don't think it was a conspiracy, just Carswell trying to save his political career, even if that meant a volte-face from what he'd been saying immediately beforehand. He's like a Roman army declaring Farage emperor. Even if he wins the battle, the real victor is the barbarian, or the Parthian/Persian Empire.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I don't understand why he couldn't have waited a week or two before jumping.
I suspect it was timed to coincide with the latest immigration figures, as UKIP knew they would show the Tories were failing. The press conference was known for several days beforehand - Farage had said it was to announce a new UKIP donor.
So you can, say, refuse to give your diabetic kid insulin because you think nettle soup is more effective, and it doesn't legally count as neglect of some sort?
Initially YES (nobody can see what people are doing in their own Honmes after all)
However, when the child goes into a diabetic coma it's quite probable the hospital would call in social services and possibly section the parents under the mental health act.
Were the child to die the parents would be facing criminal charges.
All situations are different. What put's me on the side of the parents here is that conventional NHS treatment seems not to be able to offer a cure for Ashya so I don't see what's to be lost by trying something else.
The parents probably went about it the wrong way, but now the authorities have tracked them down and made sure the boy is OK (as OK as it's possible to be when your terminally ill) they should be left alone and wished well for their Son's treatment.
The Markit U.K. manufacturing purchasing managers’ index fell to 52.5 last month from a downwardly revised 54.8 in July. It was the lowest reading since June 2013. Analysts had expected the index to tick up to 55.0.
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
PMIs this morning are pretty weak (except in Ireland and Greece) across the board. There's no doubt that concerns about Ukraine (further sanctions, possibly worse) are weighing on activity everywhere in Europe.
I'd say the more concerning bit is if this is approaching the peak of the cycle ( we're now 6 years from the downturn ) and we're STILL borrowing £100bn ish, what happens when the next downturn comes ?
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
" what happens when the next downturn comes ?"
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
OK. A traditional economic cycle looks (broadly) like this.
Growth in demand causes companies to borrow to invest in capacity. This borrowing and investment causes growth to accelerate, and further borrowing and investment in capacity. Eventually new capacity exceeds demand, and prices fall. This causes firms who have over-invested and over-borrowed to lay off workers or go bust, increasing unemployment. Debt levels fall as firms concentrate on repaying debt rather than investment. Capacity falls more quickly than demand, so at some point firms find growth returning.
Rinse and repeat.
In a normal economic cycle, six years in, corporate sector debt levels would be rising as firms invested in new capacity. This has not happened in the UK (or Europe more generally for that matter). In fact, in the UK corporate debt levels are still falling, and there has been very little corporate capital expenditure.
We are therefore not facing an excess capacity led recession.
The UK consumer, however, does remain over-levered (consumer debt to GDP is one of the highest levels in the world - and is roughly 3x the level of France, Italy or Germany, for instance). Therefore, we could see a recession driven by falling consumer spending (perhaps driven by increased borrowing costs squeezing disposible income). Our high consumer debt levels also make UK banks particularly vulnerable to a slowdown.
"The state is responsible for the upbringing of children
Just as housework withers away, so the obligations of parents to their children wither away gradually until finally society assumes the full responsibility. Under capitalism children were frequently, too frequently, a heavy and unbearable burden on the proletarian family. Communist society will come to the aid of the parents. In Soviet Russia the Commissariats of Public Education and of Social Welfare are already doing much to assist the family. We already have homes for very small babies, creches, kindergartens, children’s colonies and homes, hospitals and health resorts for sick children. restaurants, free lunches at school and free distribution of text books, warm clothing and shoes to schoolchildren. All this goes to show that the responsibility for the child is passing from the family to the collective."
So you can, say, refuse to give your diabetic kid insulin because you think nettle soup is more effective, and it doesn't legally count as neglect of some sort?
Child neglect is a law of which you are guilty when it can be shown you have not met your child's basic needs as part of your duty of care. If your kid goes into, or is about to go into a diabetic coma then the police can show that is evidence of neglect. However, disagreement with doctors is not enough to show that. Taking your kid abroad for medical treatment certainly doesn't constitute neglect.
They did not take him abroad for medical treatment. They had none organised, had not organised the money for it, and they fled to a country at the other side of Europe from their supposed destination.
Can we be sure that, the feeding tube aside, that the child was getting full and proper care?
It's madness. It's probably madness brought on by fear and compassion, but madness nonetheless.
Mr. Sulphate, I don't think it was a conspiracy, just Carswell trying to save his political career, even if that meant a volte-face from what he'd been saying immediately beforehand. He's like a Roman army declaring Farage emperor. Even if he wins the battle, the real victor is the barbarian, or the Parthian/Persian Empire.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I don't understand why he couldn't have waited a week or two before jumping.
I suspect it was timed to coincide with the latest immigration figures, as UKIP knew they would show the Tories were failing. The press conference was known for several days beforehand - Farage had said it was to announce a new UKIP donor.
It is hardly impossible to postpone a press conference I wouldn't have thought. It just seems strange to interrupt such a big story that deserves a lot of media attention. Especially one that could get UKIP a foot in the door in a lot of Labour constituencies up North.
It's interesting, because since inflation targeting set in, what happens is that when demand goes too far past capacity in the frenzy, we raise interest rates and apply the breaks early, before too much debt is accumulated. This worked very well for a while. However what we did in the UK was to import large numbers of poor people at the same time, which kept wages down and held down prices. Interest rates continued to stay low, causing debt to pile up much more than it should have done.
10:58: Clare Woodling Newsreader, BBC Radio Oxford In the news at 11:00: The North Oxfordshire MP Sir Tony Baldry has announced he will stand down at the next General Election. The 64-year-old has been telling BBC Radio Oxford "no-one can go on forever".
Mr. Sulphate, I don't think it was a conspiracy, just Carswell trying to save his political career, even if that meant a volte-face from what he'd been saying immediately beforehand. He's like a Roman army declaring Farage emperor. Even if he wins the battle, the real victor is the barbarian, or the Parthian/Persian Empire.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I don't understand why he couldn't have waited a week or two before jumping.
I suspect it was timed to coincide with the latest immigration figures, as UKIP knew they would show the Tories were failing. The press conference was known for several days beforehand - Farage had said it was to announce a new UKIP donor.
It is hardly impossible to postpone a press conference I wouldn't have thought. It just seems strange to interrupt such a big story that deserves a lot of media attention. Especially one that could get UKIP a foot in the door in a lot of Labour constituencies up North.
Yeah funny how no one is talking about the Rotherham story anymore and Carswells defection is still making all the news.. Theres even a Panorama special on it tonight at half eight
Comments
'A blind man on a galloping camel could tell you that the man with the ear-piece isn't the same man who is wearing the earpiece!'
Sorry should read 'Throwing the egg'. (Interrupted mid sentence)
Several bookies are offering a market on which Premier League club will sign the most players today, deadline day, before the summer transfer window closes at 11.00pm tonight.
Crystal Palace are known to be chasing 3,4 or even 5 players and if the logistics of actually doing the deals hold up, they look very much the justified favourites at odds of 5/2 with Betfred, Ladbrokes and Hills.
DYOR.
And tragic that after we've all seen the damage in Rotherham of throwing the racist card about, people are still doing it to smear their political opponents.
The NHS may refer such cases for treatment outside the UK; a referral is very different to the parents taking their child. For one thing, would the new treatment centre have all the child's medical records and history?
Re. your friend, the recurring phrase of my canvassing, discussions with friends etc is 'I wouldn't vote for Salmond or the SNP in a million years, but...'
(albeit from half of bugger all to three quarters.....)
I suspect we are still quite some way off a UKIP government.....
An aside: compare and contrast the police action over the Kings to that of South Yorkshire over the Rotherham disgrace. Seeking medical treatment for a child (albeit without informing the hospital first) seems to get more attention than raping children in care.
The lack of media follow-up to the Rotherham disgrace is also depressing.
If the Sun see's a chance to help bring in UKIP MPs, then that will be much more valuable to them in the long term.
"Let the market take over health care!" declared a 1997 headline in Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's leading daily newspaper, with a circulation of around 350,000.
Surprisingly, this quote didn't come from an economist or a right-wing policy wonk; it came from the chairwoman of Sweden's National Union of Nurses, Eva Fernvall. The majority of her union's 120,000 members backs her "health care pluralism," mostly out of self-interest – under Sweden's nationalized system, nurses had been stiffed on wages.
This openness to market solutions for medicine, remarkable in a health-sector union whose counterparts in North America and the rest of Europe fiercely oppose them, didn't come about by accident. Eight years ago in Stockholm, a centre-right coalition holding power on the Greater Council – the regional governing authority – decided to try a little competition to stimulate the Swedish capital's underperforming civic service monopolies. For more than two years, the Greater Council licensed private providers in parts of the government sector. The result: Competitive contracting of public transit in greater Stockholm has cut taxpayer costs by roughly 25%, and its ambulance service costs have dropped 15%. Meanwhile, overall service quality has increased noticeably.
http://www.iedm.org/fr/2476-how-swedish-socialists-chose-private-health-care
He may be nice outside politics but freedom of speech should not be suspended just because he was involved in Clutha.
One reason the political class is not hearing the debate properly is that, on each side, there are mismatched political leaderships and tin-eared campaign groups. On the yes side, many of the young people I spoke to despise Alex Salmond. On the no side, it's fair to say Alistair Darling is not hugely representative of a coalition that includes people from the Orange lodges and the Scottish Tories, and the gay clubbers I met who were firm no voters.
If, on the morning of 19 September, we wake up and that 4/1 horse of independence has come in, the levels of shock in official circles will be extreme. The Conservatives will have presided over the breakup of the Union. Even compared with handing Zimbabwe to Zanu-PF, and Hong Kong to the Chinese Communist party, that will be a major psychological moment.
Even more traumatised will be Labour. The prospect of a majority Labour government at Westminster after 2016 will be remote. The party in Scotland will likely go into meltdown, with a Podemos-style left emerging among the pro-independence Labour camp, the Greens and the progressives around groups like Common Weal.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/scottish-independence-yes-vote-turnout-polls
Doesn't seem right to me. Wa aren't communists
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
(1): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28978655
F1: from the BBC gossip colum, it sounds like the New Jersey race is off due to lack of money. Good. It would've been another tedious street circuit in a country which already has a race (and a rather good one at that).
The family have bought the wheelchair and the feedtube that Ashya needs for his care and it seems are prepared to fund the £100k cost for his treatment.
I think cases such as this have to be judged individually, and it seems that legally the family were entitled to take the boy from the hospital and "morally" they are just trying to do the best for their son.
It seems to my mind an arrest warrant is both legally and morally wrong here, certainly now they are in contact and realise they are on shaky legal ground and the fact the child is safe and well and the parents are obviously seeking treatment the extradition hearing should be dropped forthwith.
A cross border merger of this size, which would create a dominant purchaser of media rights across the EU, requires both national and EU approval.
I think their desire to create Sky Europe is greater than their desire to make a political point.)
(As an aside, James Murdoch is much less rightwing than his dad, and is a little bit 'green'.)
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
(1): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28978655
And now he has been found safe and well with the appropriate equipment for his care, and the family prepared to fund his treatment out of their own pocket the case should be dropped.
This bit from the final paragraph struck me, "politicians prepare to toss billions more dollars into our own besieged medicare system – despite evidence that more money without structural reform will have little appreciable positive effect on patient outcomes". Exactly what we did in the early years of this century.
I fail to see why you're criticising the view that it's insane more police action has been taken to arrest two parents taking their own child than over 1,400 cases of sexual abuse against children.
Mr. Sulphate, quite. The pasty bullshit got more sustained attention, as did the yacht nonsense.
I don't believe that the hospital has done anything wrong. It's the police I'm criticising. It was right for the hospital to take their duty of care seriously and alert the police. The police should have then raised the alarm and tried to track down the parents (since they know the kid was in their custody). What is wrong is the issue of an arrest warrant and the subsequent arrest and extradition of his parents. A proper extradition system with adequate checks would have stopped this.
Why were they uncontactable when it was first clear he went missing and the hospital tried to contact them? Why flee to France?
It's clear they had not organised the proton beam treatment: they were 'hoping' to get it in the Czech Republic. (1) Which, it should be added, is in the opposite direction from Spain.
I fail to see, given the parents' actions, what else the hospital or police could have done. The boy's safety was paramount, and they could not be sure that the boy was safe.
(1): http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/brain-cancer-patient-ashya-back-in-hospital-as-parents-are-arrested-after-twitter-appeal-9701996.html
Oh dear, that's pretty bad news!
It sounds like the parents had been allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period, and he was not returned (or, worse, they could not be sure if he had been returned and had gone missing afterwards).
So they searched the grounds, and attempted to contact the parents, to no avail.
Now, imagine what the hospital would have been thinking. They have a duty of care to a young boy, who has gone missing out of their care. Perhaps the parents had decided to take him to the seaside and had had a car crash; as the boy needed batteries for his feeding system, it seems sensible to find him PDQ.
Then they discover the family are on a ferry. They cannot be sure why he is on that ferry, or what their intentions are.
The hospital had a duty of care towards a patient.
I know you hate the EAW, and I'm hardly a fan of it, but I fail to see what else could have been done.
(1): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28978655
Whilst in hospital , the parents remain the legal guardians of a child unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over the legal guardianship of that child . Therefore your statement that the parents had been "allowed to remove him from hospital for a short period of time " is legally false . As legal guardians they did not need the hospital's permission to remove him whether for a short period of time or permanently .
It's a mess, and no-one would want to be in the current position. But breaking it all down step-by-step as it probably happened, then it seems clear that the authorities did the right thing at every stage.
For once.
Cue a list of apologists telling us why this is tremendous news.
His worry must now be can he keep the ship upright until May next year.
And right now, we know what the parents were trying to do, and we're still extraditing them. It's incredible.
But the hospital have a duty of care towards the patient. If a patient goes missing, especially when unwell, then the hospital has to try to find out where they are and if they are safe.
Your alternative seems to be that patients can just disappear off wards with no follow-up. I'm not sure that's a good idea.
As a hypothetical, it would be interesting to see the response should the European arrest warrant be used to extradite a suspect in a Rotherham child sexual exploitation investigation...
It is early so I will forgive your passionate support for the Police and Hospital concerned, by reacting to say that a comment was absolute rubbish.
Yes the Police did not have much choice, as there is a set way of dealing with such situations.
But now that the Child has been found, it is important that the parents are not seen to be treated as criminals. They believe that they were told by Doctors that their Son was likely to die and a new treatment used elsewhere would not be appropriate.
Now, we don't know exactly what was said by Doctors, but they don't appear to have discussed with the parents, the option of gaining other expert opinions as a matter of urgency. If the parents believed that the hospital Doctors were going to let their Son die, without exploring other options, I expect that many parents would have considered taking their child away from the Hospital.
As far as I can see it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the parents for neglect in this situation. The Police and the NHS should now concentrate in making sure the parents and child receive as much professional support as they require.
Your alternative seems to be that patients can just disappear off wards with no follow-up. I'm not sure that's a good idea.
No one is suggesting the latter alternative. That's a complete strawman. We're not suggesting the authorities should have done nothing. They should absolutely have tried to find out what happened. But that's a big difference to arresting and extraditing parents, and splitting a sick child off from his legal guardians.
And how long will this child be delayed from getting the Proton Beam treatment in Czechia? This whole heavy-handedness could cost this child his life.
Seems it was the hospital's way or the highway, the parents could not tell the hospital they were taking him as they would have been obstructed from doing so. The hospital in England was categorically not going to give him it Perhaps they have holidayed in Spain before and so are familiar with the area, and thus could use it as a base to attempt to raise cash for the treatment ?
The distance from Spain to Czech Republic isn't an issue, they can fly. Yes the hospital was correct to do everything in it's power to find him, but
Now he is safe, and well and had appropriate medical aids with him can the case not be dropped ?
Maybe 2015 is another elction worth losing.
Yes in unclear circumstances the hospital can and should report a missing patient to the police but to issue arrest warrants for someone who were legally entitled to remove someone in their guardianship lays both the hospital and the police open to being sued for substantial damages .
Waiting for Populus- Should be our first real guide to where public opinion stands since "The Rights" decided it was going to destroy itself.
Expecting Labour to go above 40% in the polls this week.
In Rotherham the police generally turned a blind eye even when the parents of some of the girls abused asked them to intervene. I this case, the police have taken actions that could lead to a child's parents not being with their son when he dies of cancer.
You have lost all sense of proportion.
They went to Spain to sell their property so they could use the money for the treatment.
http://www.banburyguardian.co.uk/news/local-news/breaking-banbury-mp-sir-tony-to-stand-down-at-next-general-election-1-6271127
Really? In which document can this policy be found? Under what legislation are the police removed from their individual oaths of office and slavishly bound to some hidden policy?
Populus, YouGov and hopefully the ComRes phone poll today.
Really? Despite Rotherham et all?
Why?
At first it was a clear child protection issue. You can't go overruling your kids doctors just because you've done a bit of googling.
But now they've been found, and don't seem unreasonable, it seems like something that could be resolved over a cuppa rather than legal proceedings.
But who knows. We're all experts eh.
Mr. Gin, quite. Carswell's defection has greatly helped Miliband *unless* there's an astounded Conservative victory in Clacton. But, if Carswell wins as expected, it'll help drive away potential UKIP voters from the left whilst attracting more from the right, helping UKIP a little, dealing great harm to the Conservatives and rolling out a red carpet for Miliband's entry to Downing Street.
Not unlike when John Cantacuzenus and John V finally reached an understanding, by the time that the Conservatives and UKIP realise they should be on the same side it may be too late.
I'm struggling to see on what grounds the parents are being charged and extradited, to be honest.
NHS hospitals are not prisons and doctors are not jailers. If the parents of the boy want to take him out of NHS care and try something else that's a matter entirely for them. As long as the boy isn't being ill-treated/neglected (which he clearly isn't) then in my view it's entirely up to his guardians how they want his treatment to proceed.
Given he is reportedly terminally ill and the treatment being offered by the NHS can't cure him, I really can't see what is to be lost by trying this Proton Radiation Therapy.
It's a wretched situation all round, but the authorities have gone OTT, IMO.
I fully expect Labour seepage from now till the GE. But the Tories will ship just as much support and under our FPTP system they have more UKIP-vulnerable seats on the east coast. So the net benefit will be positive for Labour. THey ain't going to gain any MORE support from here on out though, the 2010 Lib Dems are fully priced into the Labour true position of ~ 35%.
Labour most seats coming in whilst they lose Rotherham would be damned funny come election night however.
We are fecked, old son. But then when you have the likes of Mr. Charles arguing on here that we should continue to borrow money to fund the Arts Council there is little we can hope to do about it.
You're also quoting the father's side of the story. It's quite possible that the hospital views the matter and events differently.
It's clear that all trust between parents and hospital broke down long before this. The question is why, and who was at fault?
Your last question is the most important one at the moment. What is the best thing for Ashya? Will the current court cases help him at all? From this distance we cannot tell, but it looks doubtful at the moment. That does not mean that the authorities did anything wrong in getting to this stage. Or that we have the whole story about why the authorities think it best to get him back.
Yes you can legally go overruling your kids doctors for whatever reason you like or no reason at all .
You are the legal guardians unless the hospital has applied for and obtained a court order for them to take over that legal guardianship .
PS Given that the recent actions of the British police seem to range from ignoring thousands of child rape offences to trying to frame a cabinet minister, the argument that Britain should stay out of the EAW to make it easier for honest British citizens to escape from British law enforcement may have some merit...
*If* you are referring to my previous comment, the quoting got mucked up. I've fixed it now.
Court cases will not help anyone in this position. All that is going to happen is that the Gov't are going to be landed with a big legal bill when they are sued or whatnot by the parents.
So you can, say, refuse to give your diabetic kid insulin because you think nettle soup is more effective, and it doesn't legally count as neglect of some sort?
If they had run away to Croydon, an arrest would have quickly proven to be stupid and they would have been released within hours as no crime has been committed. Extradition is something that takes days and their dying child is being separated from them long term as a result. Just wait until these parents get back to the UK - there's no way the police will be able to keep them in custody.
F1: Williams only 7 to top score. Was hoping for twice that. Hmm. I shall ponder the Ladbrokes' markets this morning.
But I accept that the parents should have more say on what happens to their child, than an NHS Doctor who is only offering one option i.e death. If the parents can gain expert treatment elsewhere it is their choice as parents.
Yes , I am sure . This is why in some cases , Jehovahs Witnesses refusing blood transfusions for example , the hospital will apply for and get legal guardianship of a patient .
As I've said below, it's clear that all trust broke down between parents and hospital.
My main reactions have been to people claiming that the hospital and police did something wrong in the search. As I've argued below, I cannot see what else they could have done. It would be good if (and it is an 'if') the situation can now be resolved without recourse to legal means. But it is possible we do not have the whole story.
However, when the child goes into a diabetic coma it's quite probable the hospital would call in social services and possibly section the parents under the mental health act.
Were the child to die the parents would be facing criminal charges.
All situations are different. What put's me on the side of the parents here is that conventional NHS treatment seems not to be able to offer a cure for Ashya so I don't see what's to be lost by trying something else.
The parents probably went about it the wrong way, but now the authorities have tracked them down and made sure the boy is OK (as OK as it's possible to be when your terminally ill) they should be left alone and wished well for their Son's treatment.
Growth in demand causes companies to borrow to invest in capacity.
This borrowing and investment causes growth to accelerate, and further borrowing and investment in capacity.
Eventually new capacity exceeds demand, and prices fall.
This causes firms who have over-invested and over-borrowed to lay off workers or go bust, increasing unemployment.
Debt levels fall as firms concentrate on repaying debt rather than investment.
Capacity falls more quickly than demand, so at some point firms find growth returning.
Rinse and repeat.
In a normal economic cycle, six years in, corporate sector debt levels would be rising as firms invested in new capacity. This has not happened in the UK (or Europe more generally for that matter). In fact, in the UK corporate debt levels are still falling, and there has been very little corporate capital expenditure.
We are therefore not facing an excess capacity led recession.
The UK consumer, however, does remain over-levered (consumer debt to GDP is one of the highest levels in the world - and is roughly 3x the level of France, Italy or Germany, for instance). Therefore, we could see a recession driven by falling consumer spending (perhaps driven by increased borrowing costs squeezing disposible income). Our high consumer debt levels also make UK banks particularly vulnerable to a slowdown.
Just as housework withers away, so the obligations of parents to their children wither away gradually until finally society assumes the full responsibility. Under capitalism children were frequently, too frequently, a heavy and unbearable burden on the proletarian family. Communist society will come to the aid of the parents. In Soviet Russia the Commissariats of Public Education and of Social Welfare are already doing much to assist the family. We already have homes for very small babies, creches, kindergartens, children’s colonies and homes, hospitals and health resorts for sick children. restaurants, free lunches at school and free distribution of text books, warm clothing and shoes to schoolchildren. All this goes to show that the responsibility for the child is passing from the family to the collective."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1920/communism-family.htm
Can we be sure that, the feeding tube aside, that the child was getting full and proper care?
It's madness. It's probably madness brought on by fear and compassion, but madness nonetheless.
It's interesting, because since inflation targeting set in, what happens is that when demand goes too far past capacity in the frenzy, we raise interest rates and apply the breaks early, before too much debt is accumulated. This worked very well for a while. However what we did in the UK was to import large numbers of poor people at the same time, which kept wages down and held down prices. Interest rates continued to stay low, causing debt to pile up much more than it should have done.