Rees-Mogg’s belittling the Scottish CON leader was dumb – politicalbetting.com

Northern_Al said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

tlg86 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This, a million times.

Leaving aside the politics. My biggest concern about 'party-gate' is the growing number of institutions at risk of getting burnt up in the storm - the reputation of the civil service, trust in the police, the integrity of the Union. Things which when lost are so hard to win back.

https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1481674012816293896

Given the invite was sent by a fucking civil servant, I think the reputation has already been burnt.

The civil servant in question, Martin Reynolds, was hand-picked by Boris, with whom he worked when the latter was Foreign Secretary. All the senior CS at No. 10 are hand-picked. The problem is the politicisation of the CS by the current government (starting with Cummings), not the CS itself.

That isn't a recent phenomenon. It was certainly politicised under Blair. A case could even be made that it began with Thatcher's post-Falklands attempt to set up what amounted to a parallel foreign office under Parsons.

A bigger problem seems to be that so many of them are just self evidently dumb and ignorant and yet unshakeably convinced of their own brilliance (rather like Cummings himself).

I don't agree with much of that. Under Blair, we knew who was a Civil Servant and who was a SPAD - mainly because the CS quietly got on while the SPADs hit the airwaves. He didn't clear out all the long-standing Senior CS, nor did they all run for the hills. Under this government, the distinction between SPADs and Senior CS has become (deliberately) blurred - do you know who's a SPAD and who's a CS?. Many of the best Senior CS were cleared out by Boris, Patel and others, or left because they no longer felt they could fulfil their neutral duty of advising ministers without fear or favour.

Foxy said:

IshmaelZ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases tax again or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

watch this space

BETTING POST Lab maj at 5/1 looks screaming value to me

Nah. Too many seats to gain for a majority. Largest party perhaps, but a minority government.

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up income tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

See also May's disastrous dementia tax in 2017 that lost her her majority.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

That's odd because my taxes are going up in April along with 30m other people's tax. By your own black and white statements the Tories are no longer election winning.

National insurance is going up briefly to repay the extra money the NHS needed due to Covid. Other taxes are not and hopefully by the next general election tax will be cut again

Isnt Brexit supposed to be paying for this? *innocent face*

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

HYUFD said:

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up income tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

See also May's disastrous dementia tax in 2017 that lost her her majority.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

That's odd because my taxes are going up in April along with 30m other people's tax. By your own black and white statements the Tories are no longer election winning.

National insurance is going up briefly to repay the extra money the NHS needed due to Covid. Other taxes are not and hopefully by the next general election tax will be cut again

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

IshmaelZ said:

NickPalmer said:

IshmaelZ said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

Sorted...

Boris Johnson plans big shake-up of Downing Street team - https://@FTXft.com/3Gt90XA via @FT

If it doesn't start with himself, it's a waste of time.

Or a call to a shit hot divorce lawyer

Actually Carrie is by no means as bad as her misogynistic critics paint her. I hear she is devoting all her time to a charity for rescuing doggies from warzones full of awful poor brown people. The Blondi Trust.

She's highly rated in the animal welfare community - we see her as totally genuine.

Yes, Nick. You also rate doggies higher than darkies. That is implicit in that judgment.

And there isn't an "animal welfare community" for which you speak anyway. I am reponsible for the wellbeing of 9 equines (7 of them unridden and unrideable, as I am sure you think riding a horse is a refined form of abuse) and any number of dogs. I am guessing you aren't. Frankly I have you down as a borderline psychopath after your cynical deceit of this site throughout GE 2015 (tick tock) and your subsequent enthusiasm for the jew hater Corbyn. Surely animal welfare was only ever a career opening?

RobD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

Does it really matter? That was a lifetime ago, and there's absolutely zero chance of it changing.

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up income tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

See also May's disastrous dementia tax in 2017 that lost her her majority.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

That's odd because my taxes are going up in April along with 30m other people's tax. By your own black and white statements the Tories are no longer election winning.

National insurance is going up briefly to repay the extra money the NHS needed due to Covid. Other taxes are not and hopefully by the next general election tax will be cut again

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

tlg86 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This, a million times.

Leaving aside the politics. My biggest concern about 'party-gate' is the growing number of institutions at risk of getting burnt up in the storm - the reputation of the civil service, trust in the police, the integrity of the Union. Things which when lost are so hard to win back.

https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1481674012816293896

Given the invite was sent by a fucking civil servant, I think the reputation has already been burnt.

The civil servant in question, Martin Reynolds, was hand-picked by Boris, with whom he worked when the latter was Foreign Secretary. All the senior CS at No. 10 are hand-picked. The problem is the politicisation of the CS by the current government (starting with Cummings), not the CS itself.

That isn't a recent phenomenon. It was certainly politicised under Blair. A case could even be made that it began with Thatcher's post-Falklands attempt to set up what amounted to a parallel foreign office under Parsons.

A bigger problem seems to be that so many of them are just self evidently dumb and ignorant and yet unshakeably convinced of their own brilliance (rather like Cummings himself).

I don't agree with much of that. Under Blair, we knew who was a Civil Servant and who was a SPAD - mainly because the CS quietly got on while the SPADs hit the airwaves. He didn't clear out all the long-standing Senior CS, nor did they all run for the hills. Under this government, the distinction between SPADs and Senior CS has become (deliberately) blurred - do you know who's a SPAD and who's a CS?. Many of the best Senior CS were cleared out by Boris, Patel and others, or left because they no longer felt they could fulfil their neutral duty of advising ministers without fear or favour.

As I recall - and I'm working from memory so I may be wrong - Campbell and Whelan were both appointed civil servants and SPADs were given powers to manage departments.

This article would seem to partially at least bear that out:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/jul/20/uk.Whitehall

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up income tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

See also May's disastrous dementia tax in 2017 that lost her her majority.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

That's odd because my taxes are going up in April along with 30m other people's tax. By your own black and white statements the Tories are no longer election winning.

National insurance is going up briefly to repay the extra money the NHS needed due to Covid. Other taxes are not and hopefully by the next general election tax will be cut again

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Anjd, as with the former Duke of York being descended from all the others without mass adultery, illegitimacy and incest, your ijnterpretation of history is so awful that you are completey trashing your post.

" Tory PM Wilberforce".

Even '1066 and all that' would be more accurate.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

It was not Conservative policy at the time. I am not going to say I supported it as I am not going to allow you to say I must therefore also support Scottish independence. The Conservative Party opposed Indian independence until Attlee had granted it, once given post Indian independence they accepted it as do I.

Note too Scotland is not a colony unlike Scotland otherwise we would have no Scottish MPs at Westminster

Carnyx said:

RobD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

Does it really matter? That was a lifetime ago, and there's absolutely zero chance of it changing.

It does in terms of what HYUFD thinks about giving independence to various nations when it is technically (on his definition) not necessary.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

RobD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

Does it really matter? That was a lifetime ago, and there's absolutely zero chance of it changing.

It does in terms of what HYUFD thinks about giving independence to various nations when it is technically (on his definition) not necessary.

It was a Tory PM who went to war with the American colonies to prevent their independence, only a Liberal PM who gave Ireland independence and only a Labour PM who gave India independence.

The Tories only started giving nations independence under Macmillan once India and much of the Enpire had already gone

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Anjd, as with the former Duke of York being descended from all the others without mass adultery, illegitimacy and incest, your ijnterpretation of history is so awful that you are completey trashing your post.

" Tory PM Wilberforce".

Even '1066 and all that' would be more accurate.

I am trying to watch a TV programme while replying to your usual Nat rants, obviously I meant the other way round

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Not relevant to my point. YOu still won't say if you think it was good or bad to let India be independent. Always, always, blaming someone else.

It was not Conservative policy at the time. I am not going to say I supported it as I am not going to allow you to say I must therefore also support Scottish independence. The Conservative Party opposed Indian independence until Attlee had granted it, once given post Indian independence they accepted it as do I.

Note too Scotland is not a colony unlike Scotland otherwise we would have no Scottish MPs at Westminster

Oh, so it's not a colony? Today, we've had Mr Rees Mogg telling us that the Scottish elected politicians don;t count at all and that only the Colonial Exarch appointed by Mr Johnson counts. Today. Specifically for all Scots, including Tories.

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: Longtime Brexiteer Tory MP Andrew Bridgen submits letter of 'no confidence' in Boris Johnson over 'moral vacuum' in government.
Bridgen becomes the fifth Tory to say Johnson must go.
Listen on Chopper's Politics podcast:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/13/brexiteer-becomes-fifth-tory-mp-week-submit-boris-johnson-no/
@ChoppersPodcast

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: Longtime Brexiteer Tory MP Andrew Bridgen submits letter of 'no confidence' in Boris Johnson over 'moral vacuum' in government.
Bridgen becomes the fifth Tory to say Johnson must go.
Listen on Chopper's Politics podcast:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/13/brexiteer-becomes-fifth-tory-mp-week-submit-boris-johnson-no/
@ChoppersPodcast

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

It was a Tory PM who went to war with the American colonies to prevent their independence,

And was it a successful venture?

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Anjd, as with the former Duke of York being descended from all the others without mass adultery, illegitimacy and incest, your ijnterpretation of history is so awful that you are completey trashing your post.

" Tory PM Wilberforce".

Even '1066 and all that' would be more accurate.

I am trying to watch a TV programme while replying to your usual Nat rants, obviously I meant the other way round

You are a Natdionalist. I am pro-independence.

And we are not mindreaders. You tell us that black is white, we are quite entitled to draw the immediate conclusion.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

@HYUFD
And by the way, DLG did go to war over Ireland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

That's got to be it. Can't disrespect the Queen in that way and still stay on as PM.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

This is shocking and heads need to roll - what on earth was their mindset

Apparently Boris had left to go to Chequers but just adds to the narrative

Boris gone by the end of the month looks very possible

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

That's got to be it. Can't disrespect the Queen in that way and still stay on as PM.

He is hardly going to have personally attended a party where one of the attendees broke his son's swing

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

This is shocking and heads need to roll - what on earth was their mindset

Apparently Boris had left to go to Chequers but just adds to the narrative

Boris gone by the end of the month looks very possible

So Boris was at Chequers and not even at No 10 the whole evening!

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

That's got to be it. Can't disrespect the Queen in that way and still stay on as PM.

He is hardly going to have personally attended a party where one of the attendees broke his son's swing

SandyRentool said:

So is Priti positioning herself as the "Continuity Bozo" candidate?

I can't see that being a winning strategy.

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

This is shocking and heads need to roll - what on earth was their mindset

Apparently Boris had left to go to Chequers but just adds to the narrative

Boris gone by the end of the month looks very possible

So Boris was at Chequers and not even at No 10 the whole evening!

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up income tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

See also May's disastrous dementia tax in 2017 that lost her her majority.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

That's odd because my taxes are going up in April along with 30m other people's tax. By your own black and white statements the Tories are no longer election winning.

National insurance is going up briefly to repay the extra money the NHS needed due to Covid. Other taxes are not and hopefully by the next general election tax will be cut again

But once the NHS Covid bulge is through, the increased NI / new HSC levy (which will cost Mr and Mrs Voter just as much) is meant to be going to Social Care forever. The money hasn't quite been spent yet, but there's a very strong commitment.

I don't think anyone is expecting the massive economic boom that would render the increase unnecessary, and the idea that there are £12 billion of efficiency saving to be made in the public sector is for the birds.

turbotubbs said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

FFS. Will anyone defend this? Really?

Eabhal said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

This is shocking and heads need to roll - what on earth was their mindset

Apparently Boris had left to go to Chequers but just adds to the narrative

Boris gone by the end of the month looks very possible

So Boris was at Chequers and not even at No 10 the whole evening!

It was his house man!

His swing ffs!

The Queen or Boris. Let's see where your loyalties lie.

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Malmesbury said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

MarkH said:

I sense a shifting of the the political tectonic plates. The next Tory leader must lance the boil of the ERG/Covid Recovery Group as Kinnock did with Momentum, although will probably face a similar fate.
Since the CRG rebellion, the Rees-Moggs etc believe they have free reign, appealing to the c100,000 party members but increasingly alienating UK voters. As with Johnson, any new leader will be in thrall to the CRG unless they call a GE and remove the whip, so they can't stand, as Johnson did with Tory moderates.
Johnson irretrievably lost any authority over his party with the CRG revolt against Plan B so was already a dead man walking. Even before 'party gate'.
Previous PMs have been able to turn their tenure into filthy lucre. This option is no longer open to Johnson as he has already rewarded his acolytes and will have no traction as a columnist, expert meeting chair or lobbyist and will become. effectively homeless, on loss of office. Even as an after-dinner speaker to software salesmen, his appeal as the 'dim-sounding-but-actually-very-clever' speaker will fail if just one person suffered a bereavement during lockdown.
Starmer must be hoping he'll cling on, with every PMQs 'he said this then, he said that then' which one is the truth? will resonate. Starmer has been collecting and collating receipts for 18 months now.
His awkward squad, (Corbynite/Momentum) is easier to control. Without the whip, Corbyn faces a future of cultivating his allotment while collecting his pension. While his wife would advocate this course, his lifetime of 'tilting against windmills' will probably mean him setting up his own party. Without the party whip he cannot stand as an MP. Membership or support for such a new party would mean expulsion from Labour/removal of whip for Starmer's awkward squad.
And then there is running a de facto 'progressive alliance' between Lib Dems and Labour where, as we have seen, there has already been an implicit pact in by-elections.

Welcome to PB!

On one of your points, think you're under-estimating Boris Johnson post-PM prospects. Certainly he would be a big draw in USA, as former premier AND as a Benny Hill impersonator. No BoJo fatigue over here! Heck, most of us barely know who he is. Certainly we have no real antipathy (or love) for him, just another Brit twit politico/talking head.

Am NOT talking chump change, but LOTS of greenback dollars, at least for a few years on (what used to be called) the rubber chicken circuit.

I've tipped Boris to become a moosehead professor at one of your well-heeled universities. He can teach a 2-hour course on British politics, and another on Ancient Greece. Seven figures for a week's work, if that. Here is an extract from his Rome vs Greece debate against Prof Mary Beard:-

Boris Johnson: "The Romans were bastards"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0qchnptckA

To be absolutely fair, the Romans were utter bastards.

What, you mean like compared to the bubonic plague?

When they conquered people they conquered them, but I'm pushed to find an act of vindictive genocide anywhere near the one decreed by the hugely overrated C5th Athens for the Mytilenians and actually carried out on the Melians. And they managed to interact with the Jews without murderous antisemitism, which lots of people find quite tricky.

Siege of Jerusalem AD70, for a start?

Plenty of others, I think.

Mytilene and Melos were fellow Greeks and nominal allies. The decrees in both cases were for execution of adult males. Sure, Rome crushed rebellions of the theoretically subjugated, but there's a difference. And if it's not much of a difference, why the differential status granted to the Athenians?

I would say Athens tends to get a free pass because of the sheer volume of intellectual output. That's not to say it wasn't capable of brutality, ofcourse.

Yebbutnobutyeah

Plato was undoubtedly (I think) the crown of the output, but it seems perverse to credit him to the political system when he was rabidly antidemocratic anyway, and look what happened to Socrates.

Some of the literature was pretty good*, but if you are going to treat it as a credit to the politics you have to do the same for Shakespeare, Milton, Dante, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn... And if you say the Parthenon, same for St Peters, the Duomo, Taj Mahal, English cathedrals....

And the Mitylene and Melos decisions were at least as psychotically cruel as any Persian tyrant could have managed. A real advertisement against democracy.

And the universities built themselves on the theory that knowing Greek was the pinnacle of academic aspiration, and Athens was the standard by which everything should be judged (that is literally why "the classics" are called that), and what we end up with, is Boris.

* I have read all the surviving plays, in the original, so you don't have to. Trust me, a lot of it is fcking hard going.

But it was also the sheer range and versatility of output. At the top Plato was a political-metaphysical thinker, for instance, as well as in a way a literary one, so there was no need for reflected glory from one part of society to the other. Again and again it's this multidimensionality which sets Athens apart, I would say, and sets many of our modern parameters. Its military and rituals could still be as brutal as any other, ofcourse.

I'd also hesitate to use Boris, and empty prestige and affectation among the wealthy, as the inevitable historical result of Athens. The Enlightenment wasn't just an affectation of the wealthy.

Yes, but Plato was despite the political set up, not because of it. And Pericles Senior "the many not the few" has to be read in the light of the mob's (the many's) casual judicial murder of his son over Arginusae.

But this versatility was also built into the political structure. You were just required and expected to be many things simultaneously as a citizen, so it was natural that many of its intellectual innovators would also innovate in multiple areas simultaneously. I don't think there's any way round this intellectual plurality and versatility as something pretty exceptional.

I agree that doesn't mean we should skate over Athenian violence and brutality where it took place, though, or imagine them as some sort of perfect civilisation like whitewashed marble.

Very innovative to vote elderly philosophers to death because you've had enough of experts.

Had it coming, he did.

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

WhisperingOracle said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Malmesbury said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

MarkH said:

I sense a shifting of the the political tectonic plates. The next Tory leader must lance the boil of the ERG/Covid Recovery Group as Kinnock did with Momentum, although will probably face a similar fate.
Since the CRG rebellion, the Rees-Moggs etc believe they have free reign, appealing to the c100,000 party members but increasingly alienating UK voters. As with Johnson, any new leader will be in thrall to the CRG unless they call a GE and remove the whip, so they can't stand, as Johnson did with Tory moderates.
Johnson irretrievably lost any authority over his party with the CRG revolt against Plan B so was already a dead man walking. Even before 'party gate'.
Previous PMs have been able to turn their tenure into filthy lucre. This option is no longer open to Johnson as he has already rewarded his acolytes and will have no traction as a columnist, expert meeting chair or lobbyist and will become. effectively homeless, on loss of office. Even as an after-dinner speaker to software salesmen, his appeal as the 'dim-sounding-but-actually-very-clever' speaker will fail if just one person suffered a bereavement during lockdown.
Starmer must be hoping he'll cling on, with every PMQs 'he said this then, he said that then' which one is the truth? will resonate. Starmer has been collecting and collating receipts for 18 months now.
His awkward squad, (Corbynite/Momentum) is easier to control. Without the whip, Corbyn faces a future of cultivating his allotment while collecting his pension. While his wife would advocate this course, his lifetime of 'tilting against windmills' will probably mean him setting up his own party. Without the party whip he cannot stand as an MP. Membership or support for such a new party would mean expulsion from Labour/removal of whip for Starmer's awkward squad.
And then there is running a de facto 'progressive alliance' between Lib Dems and Labour where, as we have seen, there has already been an implicit pact in by-elections.

Welcome to PB!

On one of your points, think you're under-estimating Boris Johnson post-PM prospects. Certainly he would be a big draw in USA, as former premier AND as a Benny Hill impersonator. No BoJo fatigue over here! Heck, most of us barely know who he is. Certainly we have no real antipathy (or love) for him, just another Brit twit politico/talking head.

Am NOT talking chump change, but LOTS of greenback dollars, at least for a few years on (what used to be called) the rubber chicken circuit.

I've tipped Boris to become a moosehead professor at one of your well-heeled universities. He can teach a 2-hour course on British politics, and another on Ancient Greece. Seven figures for a week's work, if that. Here is an extract from his Rome vs Greece debate against Prof Mary Beard:-

Boris Johnson: "The Romans were bastards"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0qchnptckA

To be absolutely fair, the Romans were utter bastards.

What, you mean like compared to the bubonic plague?

When they conquered people they conquered them, but I'm pushed to find an act of vindictive genocide anywhere near the one decreed by the hugely overrated C5th Athens for the Mytilenians and actually carried out on the Melians. And they managed to interact with the Jews without murderous antisemitism, which lots of people find quite tricky.

Siege of Jerusalem AD70, for a start?

Plenty of others, I think.

Mytilene and Melos were fellow Greeks and nominal allies. The decrees in both cases were for execution of adult males. Sure, Rome crushed rebellions of the theoretically subjugated, but there's a difference. And if it's not much of a difference, why the differential status granted to the Athenians?

I would say Athens tends to get a free pass because of the sheer volume of intellectual output. That's not to say it wasn't capable of brutality, ofcourse.

Yebbutnobutyeah

Plato was undoubtedly (I think) the crown of the output, but it seems perverse to credit him to the political system when he was rabidly antidemocratic anyway, and look what happened to Socrates.

Some of the literature was pretty good*, but if you are going to treat it as a credit to the politics you have to do the same for Shakespeare, Milton, Dante, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn... And if you say the Parthenon, same for St Peters, the Duomo, Taj Mahal, English cathedrals....

And the Mitylene and Melos decisions were at least as psychotically cruel as any Persian tyrant could have managed. A real advertisement against democracy.

And the universities built themselves on the theory that knowing Greek was the pinnacle of academic aspiration, and Athens was the standard by which everything should be judged (that is literally why "the classics" are called that), and what we end up with, is Boris.

* I have read all the surviving plays, in the original, so you don't have to. Trust me, a lot of it is fcking hard going.

But it was also the sheer range and versatility of output. At the top Plato was a political-metaphysical thinker, for instance, as well as in a way a literary one, so there was no need for reflected glory from one part of society to the other. Again and again it's this multidimensionality which sets Athens apart, I would say, and sets many of our modern parameters. Its military and rituals could still be as brutal as any other, ofcourse.

I'd also hesitate to use Boris, and empty prestige and affectation among the wealthy, as the inevitable historical result of Athens. The Enlightenment wasn't just an affectation of the wealthy.

Yes, but Plato was despite the political set up, not because of it. And Pericles Senior "the many not the few" has to be read in the light of the mob's (the many's) casual judicial murder of his son over Arginusae.

But this versatility was also built into the political structure. You were just required and expected to be many things simultaneously as a citizen, so it was natural that many of its intellectual innovators would also innovate in multiple areas simultaneously. I don't think there's any way round this intellectual plurality and versatility as something pretty exceptional.

I agree that doesn't mean we should skate over Athenian violence and brutality where it took place, though, or imagine them as some sort of perfect civilisation like whitewashed marble.

Very innovative to vote elderly philosophers to death because you've had enough of experts.

Had it coming, he did.

HYUFD said:

RobD said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

FUCKING HELL.

EXCLUSIVE

Number 10 held two boozy parties the night before the Queen mourned Prince Philip alone.

Staff drank and at points danced until the early hours of the night of April 16.

Hours later, the Queen went to a socially-distanced funeral for Philip.

https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1481741378262638604

This is shocking and heads need to roll - what on earth was their mindset

Apparently Boris had left to go to Chequers but just adds to the narrative

Boris gone by the end of the month looks very possible

So Boris was at Chequers and not even at No 10 the whole evening!

But these are his employees, so he has some share of responsibility.

No their line managers do.

This is just like having a party when your parents, in this case read the Johnsons, were away

Northern_Al said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

ydoethur said:

Northern_Al said:

tlg86 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

This, a million times.

Leaving aside the politics. My biggest concern about 'party-gate' is the growing number of institutions at risk of getting burnt up in the storm - the reputation of the civil service, trust in the police, the integrity of the Union. Things which when lost are so hard to win back.

https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1481674012816293896

Given the invite was sent by a fucking civil servant, I think the reputation has already been burnt.

The civil servant in question, Martin Reynolds, was hand-picked by Boris, with whom he worked when the latter was Foreign Secretary. All the senior CS at No. 10 are hand-picked. The problem is the politicisation of the CS by the current government (starting with Cummings), not the CS itself.

That isn't a recent phenomenon. It was certainly politicised under Blair. A case could even be made that it began with Thatcher's post-Falklands attempt to set up what amounted to a parallel foreign office under Parsons.

A bigger problem seems to be that so many of them are just self evidently dumb and ignorant and yet unshakeably convinced of their own brilliance (rather like Cummings himself).

I don't agree with much of that. Under Blair, we knew who was a Civil Servant and who was a SPAD - mainly because the CS quietly got on while the SPADs hit the airwaves. He didn't clear out all the long-standing Senior CS, nor did they all run for the hills. Under this government, the distinction between SPADs and Senior CS has become (deliberately) blurred - do you know who's a SPAD and who's a CS?. Many of the best Senior CS were cleared out by Boris, Patel and others, or left because they no longer felt they could fulfil their neutral duty of advising ministers without fear or favour.

As I recall - and I'm working from memory so I may be wrong - Campbell and Whelan were both appointed civil servants and SPADs were given powers to manage departments.

This article would seem to partially at least bear that out:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/jul/20/uk.Whitehall

No, Campbell and Whelan were never Civil Servants, always SPADs. But Blair did give them too much power, including the power to order civil servants around. An error, I agree. But they never concealed that they were political appointees doing a political job.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

MaxPB said:

This new No. 10 reorganisation is another purge of dissenters. Anyone who responded that they thought the party was a bad idea or didn't attend will be sacked. Any person who has muttered that the PM should have known better will be hounded out. Boris values loyalty and fealty above all else, he will see anyone who isn't as guilty as him or anyone who had reservations about all the partying as disloyal and a risk.

The UK is no more than a fiefdom with a paralysed Tory party unable or unwilling to pull the trigger. The one thing they used to be good at seems to have been lost.

As people said at the time Boris was elected - Boris will completely trash the Tory party as he destroys support from all directions.

The Tories are still polling higher than May's Tories were after she failed to deliver Brexit or Major's Tories were by 1995 v New Labour

So not scraping the bottom of the barrel just yet. Keep on digging...

Unless the government increases income tax or inheritance tax or imposes new restrictions on the vaccinated I doubt it will go much lower polling wise

But it has to increase income tax and inheritance tax to be a fiscally prudent Conservative party.

It was George Bush Snr putting up tax against his pledge not to in 1988 that saw him fall to just 38% in the 1992 presidential election and Perot get 19% of the vote while Bill Clinton won comfortably.

Similarly the Progressive Conservative government in Canada introducing a new national goods and sales tax before the 1993 election saw them collapse to just 18% and 2 MPs under Kim Campbell who had taken over from Brian Mulroney as PM. They ended up even behind the populist right Reform Party as the Liberals won a landslide.

Election winning Conservatives do not raise tax

Who gives a primate's eructation about what the Americans and the Canadians do? You might as well inquire what the Fon of Bafut, and the Chinese Communist Party, do.

We are here in the UK, whether we like it or not.

And you still won't tell me if you think that the UK giving India independence was a good or bad thing. That's a lot closer to home that some Canadian person.

Where the same principle applies, see the Tories collapse post 1993 after imposing VAT on fuel. Or after May's dementia tax. Conservatives do not like tax rises.

I told you quite clearly Conservatives opposed Indian independence before 1948 but have accepted it since Attlee gave it. I was not born until 40 years after Indian independence view on it beyond factual comment on it is irrelevant

In other words, you would refuse to say that you approved of the abolition of slavery because etc etc.

There were no slaves in British India and Tory PM Wilberforce worked with Pitt to abolish it

Anjd, as with the former Duke of York being descended from all the others without mass adultery, illegitimacy and incest, your ijnterpretation of history is so awful that you are completey trashing your post.

" Tory PM Wilberforce".

Even '1066 and all that' would be more accurate.

I am trying to watch a TV programme while replying to your usual Nat rants, obviously I meant the other way round

You are a Natdionalist. I am pro-independence.

And we are not mindreaders. You tell us that black is white, we are quite entitled to draw the immediate conclusion.

No you are a Scottish Nationalist and always will be, hence you support the Scottish National Party