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VONCing Boris – politicalbetting.com

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  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,199
    BigRich said:

    I suspect that fairly soon the everybody who what's a booster will have had one, and we will be surprised at how many say no thanks, not anti-vaxers as they had the first 2 jabs, just board with this.

    On that subject My booster is booked for next Friday, but over the last week I have had 7 text messages requesting that I book one. should I be suspishas that my original booking has not worked? or is this just a system that is not joined up? or are they trying to encourage me to move my booking earlier. if its the latter the messages are not worded that way.
    My wife, my younger son, and myself all received boosters on 30 October, but are all receiving regular texts and emails inviting us to book.

  • DougSeal said:

    Of course not. It would mean that the Civil Servants at the party would equally be immune from speeding tickets.
    Strange response. We're not arguing about the actions of individuals in their own cars, but whether an employer, which us the Crown in this case, is holding an illegal party on Crown premises.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Guidance is not the same as the law, as I kept saying ad nauseam last year.

    A "potential breach" is a marvellously elastic phrase.

    It is presentationally very bad for the PM because it looks contemptuous and also because of the stupid lies around it all - and the fact that seemingly every government department was doing the same thing.

    But the risk for Labour now is that they will over-egg it and make it seem as if wearing tinsel in the office is somehow a criminal offence for which people should be locked up.

    They should stay on the PM one rule for him, another rule for you, and no-one should trust the PM attack lines.

    Even if he was banged to rights and evidence easy to find, there is zero chance the police, CPS and courts will all prosecute anyway so why bother with the law.
  • Nigelb said:

    Interestingly it was the obvious dishonesty over it, rather than the sinking itself, which most annoyed people.
    Whether or not it was sailing towards the task force (it wasn't) it still represented a threat and its sinking was perfectly legitimate. Thatcher, uncharacteristically, got that detail wrong.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Adam Brooks
    @EssexPR
    ·
    2h
    The Government has tried to make the Lateral Flow test the softener to Vaccine Passports, but almost everywhere in Europe that option is later removed..
    Don’t be fooled, these ARE Vaccine Passports.

    Can you guarantee that testing would remain
    @nadhimzahawi
    ?

    Yes or NO

    If you take the position that there's any value at all in having vaxports then, logically, you must also remove the LFT get out clause.

    Self-administered and self-reported LFT results can be falsified without any fear of detection or consequence, and therefore render the whole effort totally pointless.

    I would go so far as to say that the vaxport proposal that the Government is making is, therefore, a transparent and obvious waste of public money.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    Gadfly said:

    My wife, my younger son, and myself all received boosters on 30 October, but are all receiving regular texts and emails inviting us to book.

    Mrs C and I have had our boosters, but no reminders. Have we been written off?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038

    I'm sure you cannot draw that conclusion about the position of Conservative voters vis a vis the EU in the late 90's. Farage was still a City trader, seen as odd by his peers.
    And, looking at the figures, had the Conservatives not voted with the Government over Iraq, but had instead voted against the War, the Government would have been defeated and we would not have been dragged into war.

    One can, of course, argue, that the average Iraqi is better off without Saddam but they've gone through, and are still going though much suffering to reach that point, and I'm not sure that they'd all agree with you.
    Tory voters by the late 1990s and early 2000s were strongly eurosceptic. Blair still introduced the EU social chapter, signed the Nice and Amsterdam treaties towards an EU constitution and of course introduced free movement without restriction in 2004, none of which was supported by Tory voters.

    He then annoyed leftwing voters with the Iraq War. So as I said he tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing almost nobody, neither Tories nor his leftwing core vote. He still appealed to some centrist Blairites but by 2007 Labour were ready to dump him in favour of Brown who was more appealing to their base
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited December 2021
    pigeon said:

    If you take the position that there's any value at all in having vaxports then, logically, you must also remove the LFT get out clause.

    Self-administered and self-reported LFT results can be falsified without any fear of detection or consequence, and therefore render the whole effort totally pointless.

    I would go so far as to say that the vaxport proposal that the Government is making is, therefore, a transparent and obvious waste of public money.
    Not if it encourages more people to get vaccinated. LFT are mainly to protect the unvaccinated and those who have not had their boosters, so the unvaccinated are more likely to do them and require their friends to do them if they want to go out to large events
  • Mrs C and I have had our boosters, but no reminders. Have we been written off?
    I keep getting letters saying I need to book for a booster.

    I had one a month ago.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,254
    edited December 2021
    Gadfly said:

    My wife, my younger son, and myself all received boosters on 30 October, but are all receiving regular texts and emails inviting us to book.

    Probably need another one by March at this rate so maybe book in for then!

    As far as I can tell there are texts from NHS central and your GP, neither seems to know your vaccination appointments with the other one?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295

    More photos coming, BoJo breaking in person

    Do Labour really want to get rid of Johnson though? Whoever replaces him might have a better chance of winning the next election.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,536
    HYUFD said:

    Enoch Powell was also honest, same with Tony Benn, those on the political extremes often are as they never compromise
    Hmmm...there remain very serious question marks over the lady he referenced in 'Rivers of Blood.' Yes, there is a possible candidate but if she was the model he changed a very large number of details.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,536
    pigeon said:

    If you take the position that there's any value at all in having vaxports then, logically, you must also remove the LFT get out clause.

    Self-administered and self-reported LFT results can be falsified without any fear of detection or consequence, and therefore render the whole effort totally pointless.

    I would go so far as to say that the vaxport proposal that the Government is making is, therefore, a transparent and obvious waste of public money.
    Like most of their proposals.
  • pigeon said:

    If you take the position that there's any value at all in having vaxports then, logically, you must also remove the LFT get out clause.

    Self-administered and self-reported LFT results can be falsified without any fear of detection or consequence, and therefore render the whole effort totally pointless.

    I would go so far as to say that the vaxport proposal that the Government is making is, therefore, a transparent and obvious waste of public money.
    The LFT get out is being promised to try and reduce the backbench rebellion on Tuesday.

    They will drop it later on and it will just be vaxports.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180

    The last totally honest politician I can think of was Ian Paisley. He never said anything he did not believe even when it made things difficult for him. Even his political enemies admitted that and, in Northern Ireland politics, that is quite an admission.

    I still regard him as a nutter, but an honest one...
    He was a good example of another problem though. He believed stuff that was so obviously wrong that it really didn't matter if he was telling the truth (as he saw it) or not.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    DavidL said:

    The consequences of Nicola's latest restrictions are going to be horrendous and put many struggling businesses in the entertainment and retail sectors out of business permanently, especially given the lack of financial support this time around.

    But Nicola will be able to delay her demands for a second Indyref that she doesn't think she can win for a few more months and that is what matters.
    She can also blame all the business failures on the refusal of the UK Treasury to provide more funds, absolving herself and creating a new grievance into the bargain. It's quite convenient.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    Perhaps we can have a new Sunday game, guessing how the weeks media narrative will go and seeing how many we get right? 🙂

    I’ll go first.

    Monday - Inflation hit 8%, amid market panic, emergency meeting at BoE raises interest rates 0.17%.
    BBC NEWS coverage (under new BBC Director General ‘Dilyn’) is dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Tuesday - Scientists rolled out from first light to explain how Omicron will take one loved one from each family this Christmas unless restrictions are passed by Parliament. Gove makes compromise to rebels: pub passports or no pub, the nation is watching you; Rebellion fizzles out. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Wednesday - Having used Ukraine as diversion, Putin invades UK. UK ministries slow to respond due to being at “unofficial gathering in Santa hat”/WFH (delete according to which media outlet you work for).
    NATO respond by releasing their UFO files. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Thursday - the last available magic mixies cauldron identified in store in West Midlands; police erect barriers to prevent loss of life, but barriers overrun in late afternoon. The Christmas panic buying riots begin. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out. In late sports news, Liverpool (now known as Putingrad Rovers) manage to blow a 3 goal lead to Newcastleburg and lose - Eagles posts expletives many of us have never even heard of before.
    Friday - Boris wins by election sending the Conservative Party home for Christmas in happy spirits.
    BBC NEWS coverage dominated by “invincible Boris” the most electorally successful Conservative in history.

    Have a good Sunday everyone 🙋‍♀️
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    HYUFD said:

    Tory voters by the late 1990s and early 2000s were strongly eurosceptic. Blair still introduced the EU social chapter, signed the Nice and Amsterdam treaties towards an EU constitution and of course introduced free movement without restriction in 2004, none of which was supported by Tory voters.

    He then annoyed leftwing voters with the Iraq War. So as I said he tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing almost nobody, neither Tories nor his leftwing core vote. He still appealed to some centrist Blairites but by 2007 Labour were ready to dump him in favour of Brown who was more appealing to their base
    Not sure whence comes your evidence for 'strongly' eurosceptic in the mid to late Blair years. Not my recollection.
    And gung-ho Tories were all for the Iraq invasion.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,518
    edited December 2021

    That's a really good question. Perhaps they fiddle the figures in different ways to ours. ;)

    But I wonder if it all depends on what you count as healthcare spending - for instance we might include things they do not, such as some aspects of social care, dentistry etc. Or our NHS might be really inefficient.
    There's such little difference in life expectancy between Western European countries it makes me wonder how much the different health systems have an effect.

    Or whether other factors somehow cancel them and each other out - more obesity in the UK cancelling out more smoking in France for example.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Cyclefree said:

    Guidance is not the same as the law, as I kept saying ad nauseam last year.

    A "potential breach" is a marvellously elastic phrase.

    It is presentationally very bad for the PM because it looks contemptuous and also because of the stupid lies around it all - and the fact that seemingly every government department was doing the same thing.

    But the risk for Labour now is that they will over-egg it and make it seem as if wearing tinsel in the office is somehow a criminal offence for which people should be locked up.

    There clearly was a law that some have been found gulity of breaking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59600519

    I obviously can't say whether the 'gatherings' at No 10 breach the same law, that is for a court to decide. In the absence of a proper investigation and prosecution, public opinion will inevitably be the arbiter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804
    pigeon said:

    If you take the position that there's any value at all in having vaxports then, logically, you must also remove the LFT get out clause.

    Self-administered and self-reported LFT results can be falsified without any fear of detection or consequence, and therefore render the whole effort totally pointless.

    I would go so far as to say that the vaxport proposal that the Government is making is, therefore, a transparent and obvious waste of public money.
    Not really vaxports if there's an easy testing alternative. Allowing me to (just about) claim I was right all along in saying vaxports were never happening here.
  • In this matter, the question of law-breaking is a separate issue for the police to deal with.

    Regardless of the legalities, what this does is to poison the Conservative brand and Boris in particular.

    Even if he is found innocent, the reputational damage is still done
    Indeed, I don't think using an argument based on the technicality of Crown Immunity or Crown property exemption from Coronavirus regulations is helpful. The question is whether No 10 was doing something which would be against the rules and potentially illegal for anyone else.

    But I'm a pedant and think people shouldn't bang on about something being illegal when, in fact, it isn't. It's potentially just as much a lie as some of the things Boris spouts.

    Similarly, when someone is sentenced for a crime I like to be told what crime they have actually committed. Sometimes it is obvious, but sometimes not and we are told for example that two policemen have been sent to prison for sharing photos on WhatsApp. No they haven't, they were sent to prison for misconduct in public office.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    The LFT get out is being promised to try and reduce the backbench rebellion on Tuesday.

    They will drop it later on and it will just be vaxports.
    Oh absolutely, that makes complete sense.

    It's all more something-must-be-done-ism anyway, though. The current, limited proposals will make no difference.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    IshmaelZ said:

    I think just bored is right.

    I queued for 3.5 hours for my booster but I am increasingly reminded of the story of Jim callaghan in the navy in ww2. He religiously wrote his life jacket all day every day for years. On the day he was demobbed he took it off and chucked it overboard. It sank like a stone.
    The lifejackets back then had a short life, especially when worn continuously - which they weren't designed for. The flotation material would absorb water, rot and become useless.

    He should have "lost" his life jacket every few months.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Do Labour really want to get rid of Johnson though? Whoever replaces him might have a better chance of winning the next election.
    Sky have just said today's photo actually show Boris in a zoom meeting complying with the covid regulations, but that Boris's problem is the vote on Tuesday and the by election on Thursday

    I have had a quiet morning this morning away from the political shenanigans and to be honest it is really pleasant to step back from the present cauldron of debate

    I am quite clear Boris should resign, but no matter how much we 'howl into the wind' this is a matter for his mps and only they can bring about the change
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,199

    Probably need another one by March at this rate so maybe book in for then!

    As far as I can tell there are texts from NHS central and your GP, neither seems to know your vaccination appointments with the other one?
    That's my interpretation. We were all jabbed by the local GPs (and my medical record confirms mine) but the reminders are coming from a national system.
  • @Farooq I've looked at your links now and for the reasons I said above and more they are not evidence in my eyes that mask mandates work long term.

    There's a difference between saying masks work, in certain environments, and that mask mandates work for an endemic disease.

    Again getting those who are bothered about the virus, like Foxy, to wear a quality and well fitted FFP2 or better mask like Foxy does at the football would achieve far more.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,624

    There clearly was a law that some have been found gulity of breaking.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59600519

    I obviously can't say whether the 'gatherings' at No 10 breach the same law, that is for a court to decide. In the absence of a proper investigation and prosecution, public opinion will inevitably be the arbiter.
    No, the media will be the arbiter and try to drive public opinion accordingly. They’ve sat in this for a while. What else have they got and not just on the blue team.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Guidance is not the same as the law, as I kept saying ad nauseam last year.

    A "potential breach" is a marvellously elastic phrase.

    It is presentationally very bad for the PM because it looks contemptuous and also because of the stupid lies around it all - and the fact that seemingly every government department was doing the same thing.

    But the risk for Labour now is that they will over-egg it and make it seem as if wearing tinsel in the office is somehow a criminal offence for which people should be locked up.

    Wise words and the danger for labour and others is they start to look as if we cannot enjoy ourselves in this difficult environment and to be honest in my company wearing tinsel and santa hats by the staff in December was normal practice
  • Whether or not it was sailing towards the task force (it wasn't) it still represented a threat and its sinking was perfectly legitimate. Thatcher, uncharacteristically, got that detail wrong.
    Indeed. We were at war. It was a legitimate target, and would have been even if it had been in harbour.

    Similarly, I never understood the kerfuffle about the British ISIS members killed by drones. They were enemy combatants and just as legitimate a target as all the Iraqis and Syrians we were killing by drones.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    Indeed, I don't think using an argument based on the technicality of Crown Immunity or Crown property exemption from Coronavirus regulations is helpful. The question is whether No 10 was doing something which would be against the rules and potentially illegal for anyone else.

    But I'm a pedant and think people shouldn't bang on about something being illegal when, in fact, it isn't. It's potentially just as much a lie as some of the things Boris spouts.

    Similarly, when someone is sentenced for a crime I like to be told what crime they have actually committed. Sometimes it is obvious, but sometimes not and we are told for example that two policemen have been sent to prison for sharing photos on WhatsApp. No they haven't, they were sent to prison for misconduct in public office.
    Carry on in this vein and you'll end up like me - pedantically pointing out facts!

    And that would never do in an era when "feelings" and "perception" no matter how daft are the only things that count.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    Nigelb said:

    Interestingly it was the obvious dishonesty over it, rather than the sinking itself, which most annoyed people.
    Because people concentrated on Thatcher, they have completely missed what really happened with respect to the Belgrano.

    The "cover-up" was actually aligning stories to protect naval officers. Who did the right thing.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,319

    Perhaps we can have a new Sunday game, guessing how the weeks media narrative will go and seeing how many we get right? 🙂

    I’ll go first.

    Monday - Inflation hit 8%, amid market panic, emergency meeting at BoE raises interest rates 0.17%.
    BBC NEWS coverage (under new BBC Director General ‘Dilyn’) is dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Tuesday - Scientists rolled out from first light to explain how Omicron will take one loved one from each family this Christmas unless restrictions are passed by Parliament. Gove makes compromise to rebels: pub passports or no pub, the nation is watching you; Rebellion fizzles out. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Wednesday - Having used Ukraine as diversion, Putin invades UK. UK ministries slow to respond due to being at “unofficial gathering in Santa hat”/WFH (delete according to which media outlet you work for).
    NATO respond by releasing their UFO files. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out.
    Thursday - the last available magic mixies cauldron identified in store in West Midlands; police erect barriers to prevent loss of life, but barriers overrun in late afternoon. The Christmas panic buying riots begin. BBC NEWS coverage dominated by how scary Omicron is and how brilliant the booster roll out. In late sports news, Liverpool (now known as Putingrad Rovers) manage to blow a 3 goal lead to Newcastleburg and lose - Eagles posts expletives many of us have never even heard of before.
    Friday - Boris wins by election sending the Conservative Party home for Christmas in happy spirits.
    BBC NEWS coverage dominated by “invincible Boris” the most electorally successful Conservative in history.

    Have a good Sunday everyone 🙋‍♀️

    It's not too late to delete this.
  • pigeon said:

    That's an interestingly worded response. Have you formally given up on the Union now and joined the independence camp?

    Anyhow, I refer to my previous response. Maintaining a more cautious approach since July has, at best, helped Scotland around the margins (it certainly didn't prevent the collapse of the Scottish ambulance service, for example, and nor has it spared the Scottish Government from the general panic over new restrictions now,) and doesn't appear to have done Wales any good at all.

    Ultimately, what works best against this disease is radical self-isolation - keeping away from human contact completely - or, if you really must meet people rather than spending the remainder of your days communicating exclusively via Zoom or WhatsApp, only doing so outdoors. And the easier it becomes to catch the illness, the more acute this problem will get. We can't keep this going indefinitely.
    I referred to England and Scotland as separate with regards to Covid because they are.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939
    Gadfly said:

    That's my interpretation. We were all jabbed by the local GPs (and my medical record confirms mine) but the reminders are coming from a national system.
    It's belt and braces. Better than the alternative.
    I am receiving 3 or 4 emails a day from test and trace even though I spoke to them on the phone.
    Much rather this than miss people. Or ignore them after a couple of reminders.
  • Farooq said:

    How is it I missed this post earlier?

    Firstly, the science in the review is not "out of date", and the medical mask shortage cited is not really part of the science, it's context. The context has changed, yes, but the science hasn't. Masks work, even cloth masks. That is the only point I wanted to make.
    if you argue for people choosing a better grade of masks, agreed. If you're saying that vaccines are MORE important, agreed. But you did exactly what I thought you would. You glanced at it, found a non-reason to dismiss it all, and moved on.

    Can you please look at the science in there and just admit one thing: masks work. Because that is the only point, the only thing I want you to grasp.
    I never disputed that masks work. I advocated for cloth masks last year when we were pre vaccines and when decent masks were in short supply.

    I do dispute that mask mandates work over the long term.

    There's a difference. The two are not the same thing.
  • In Shropshire North, the by-election is now being very clearly reported as a two horse race between the LDs and Conservatives. Those are the conditions required for a Labour tactical squeeze.

    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/politics/north-shropshire-by-election/2021/12/08/north-shropshire-by-election-odds-bookies-install-lib-dems-as-favourites/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Strange response. We're not arguing about the actions of individuals in their own cars, but whether an employer, which us the Crown in this case, is holding an illegal party on Crown premises.
    The Crown can't be prosecuted for this but the individuals attending the party can. Hard to see how any corporate employer would meet the threshold of criminal liability under the relevant regulations. It's on the employees. I remember the police having words with people working at a supermarket in Herne Bay after they had a party following their shift last Christmas. Not the supermarket itself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038

    Wise words and the danger for labour and others is they start to look as if we cannot enjoy ourselves in this difficult environment and to be honest in my company wearing tinsel and santa hats by the staff in December was normal practice
    Starmer is undoubtedly a roundhead Puritan Labour leader, whereas Boris is definitely a fun loving Cavalier.

    Indeed it is the clearest contrast between a roundhead Labour leader and a Cavalier Tory leader since Brown v Cameron, albeit under May the Tories had more of a roundhead leader themselves
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is undoubtedly a roundhead Puritan Labour leader, whereas Boris is definitely a fun loving Cavalier.

    Indeed it is the clearest contrast between a roundhead Labour leader and a Cavalier Tory leader since Brown v Cameron, albeit under May the Tories had more of a roundhead leader themselves
    OMG! Bottom meet Barrel

    Anyway, if that's your opinion, what are you doing here? Essex was Puritan territory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited December 2021

    Not sure whence comes your evidence for 'strongly' eurosceptic in the mid to late Blair years. Not my recollection.
    And gung-ho Tories were all for the Iraq invasion.
    Well for starters Tory members overwhelmingly voted for the eurosceptic IDS over the pro EU Ken Clarke even as early as 2001 and the Tories under IDS and the equally eurosceptic Howard still got over 30%.

    You are yet again missing the point completely on Iraq as Blair lost his leftwing base over that.

    So my point stands, Blair tried to please everyone in 1997, by 2007 he had neither Tories or his leftwing base and while he still had some centrists that was not enough for him to keep the Labour leadership and stop Brown replacing him as PM and as a more leftwing Labour leader
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,785
    HYUFD said:

    The hunting ban, the minimum wage, devolved parliaments and the EU social chapter, taxes on pension funds, ending assisted places at private schools etc were certainly not delivering what Tory voters voted for in 1997 even if he was much less leftwing than most Labour PMs. After Blair invaded Iraq he annoyed leftwing voters too.

    Blair is therefore the classic example of someone who tried to please everyone, ended up pleasing almost noone
    Well, he pleased enough people to win three general elections. What a failure.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    So, Hamilton or Verstappen? I fear that pole yesterday is going to be decisive and that the latter will claim it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939

    Wise words and the danger for labour and others is they start to look as if we cannot enjoy ourselves in this difficult environment and to be honest in my company wearing tinsel and santa hats by the staff in December was normal practice
    You weren't an undertaker I take it?
  • Has Boris resigned yet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited December 2021

    OMG! Bottom meet Barrel

    Anyway, if that's your opinion, what are you doing here? Essex was Puritan territory.
    At the moment we are part Essex roundhead, part Cavalier, as we are also partly in Oxford which was firmly Cavalier and indeed the royalists HQ.

    However the division runs across party lines eg Blair was a cavalier as much as Boris and Cameron and Osborne are as is Portillo and Heseltine and Mandelson. Thatcher was a roundhead as was IDS and Ann Widdecombe say as is May and as was Brown and as is Starmer.

    Corbyn was part cavalier, part roundhead
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,629
    edited December 2021
    Morning all.

    Has BJ gone yet?

    Two titbits:

    1 - UK has stated that the 'current round of fish negotiations is concluded', with about 10-15% of remaining Macron demands fulfilled. Presumably they scraped some evidence together, or made firm decisions where they could.

    Jersey taking a similar position. Now moving on to individual quotas etc.
    https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/news/130-french-boats-can-stay-33-must-go-fishing-negotiations-come-close/#.YbXp-L3P1EY

    So presumably more tantrums incoming soon from Petit Putin.

    UK govt as ever not being proactive enough in pushing back wrt this. Should have done this back in June.

    So Truss's desk is slightly more clear than it was last week.

    2 - France up in arms about a Pres. candidate who has insulted Macron:

    Then this astoundingly contemptuous tirade against Macron: "We will leave in his window this plastic mannequin, this automaton which wanders in a labyrinth of mirrors, this faceless mask which disfigures ours. We will leave this adolescent to seek himself eternally."
    https://twitter.com/frasermatthew/status/1467789119912873986

    Seems rather more polite than the stuff Macron comes out with about elected leaders who won't do what he wants.
  • dixiedean said:

    You weren't an undertaker I take it?
    Not something I could have done to be honest
  • Starmer is now not keen on vaccine passports, pitching as reluctantly going with plan B, only last month he didn't think they went far enough and wanted passport++ scheme.
  • Is Max Ver-Crash-en going to take Lewis out?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment we are part Essex roundhead, part Cavalier, as we are also partly in Oxford which was firmly Cavalier and indeed the royalists HQ.

    However the division runs across party lines eg Blair was a cavalier as much as Boris and Cameron are as is Portillo and Heseltine, Thatcher was a roundhead as was IDS and Ann Widdecombe say as is May and as was Brown and as is Starmer.

    Corbyn was part cavalier, part roundhead
    Could I put it to you that maybe none of these people are Roundheads or Cavaliers because those groups ceased to exist over 400 years ago!

    Just saying.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,359
    DavidL said:

    So, Hamilton or Verstappen? I fear that pole yesterday is going to be decisive and that the latter will claim it.

    I just hope it's a good race. In some ways they both deserve the title; in some ways (IMV) Verstappen does not.

    I've got a bottle of red wine to watch the race live (thanks to Sky and Ch4), and Mrs J is downstairs cooking with the little 'un, and I've got permission to eat in front of the TV.

    But I hope the race is uncontroversial, if not boring, and that the title race is well won.

    I fear I'm going to be disappointed.
  • DavidL said:

    Having lived through it Thatcher equivocated a lot more at the time than her subsequent reputation suggests. There was also the Belgrano nonsense where she was not exactly straightforward (if entirely correct).
    Mrs Thatcher denied plans to double VAT. Though technically she was correct as 8 to 15 per cent is not quite double. Let's call it a political promise.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited December 2021

    Well, he pleased enough people to win three general elections. What a failure.
    By 2005 however once he had lost the left as well he got the lowest voteshare of any re elected PM since WW2 and Labour then swiftly forced him out as leader in favour of Brown
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939

    Could I put it to you that maybe none of these people are Roundheads or Cavaliers because those groups ceased to exist over 400 years ago!

    Just saying.
    Although I do think both strands have more of an influence on our society and politics than we often care to recognise.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    I referred to England and Scotland as separate with regards to Covid because they are.
    For all the good that it's done the latter.

    Comparing the overall Covid death rate for England over the entire pandemic with that for Scotland - and Scotland's is indeed lower - we could conclude that the Edinburgh Government's more cautious approach has saved 1,800 Scots who would otherwise have died if devolved policy did not exist - and that's a crude calculation that doesn't take into account a variety of factors that mitigate against Scotland (a somewhat older and sicker population) but also against England (higher population density and a much more ethnically diverse population,) or the deleterious socio-economic effects that stricter regulation has visited upon Scotland throughout most of that period.

    Northern Ireland, overall, has done better than Scotland and Wales has fared worse than England for per capita Covid mortality, but we're none of us a million miles apart. So, if the UK Government really has been as grossly negligent as you seem to want to imply then that hardly reflects well on the devolved administrations, either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    HYUFD said:

    Well for starters Tory members overwhelmingly voted for the eurosceptic IDS over the pro EU Ken Clarke even as early as 2001 and the Tories under IDS and the equally eurosceptic Howard still got over 30%.

    You are yet again missing the point completely on Iraq as Blair lost his leftwing base over that.

    So my point stands, Blair tried to please everyone in 1997, by 2007 he had neither Tories or his leftwing base and while he still had some centrists that was not enough for him to keep the Labour leadership and stop Brown replacing him as PM and as a more leftwing Labour leader
    60:40. Overwhelming?

    Blair never really had a 'left-wing' base. And it was always understood that Blair would at some point give way to Brown.

    Politics is rarely black and white; wholly good vs wholly evil. Nor does it stand still; it's a living thing and, like all such changes and evolves.
    Something which almost 70 years of watching, sometimes involved, sometimes not has taught me.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2021
    @Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".

    For me, as many cases as happen naturally occur is a GOOD thing. Especially if those who are bothered about the virus are protected by wearing a quality FFP2 etc mask while those who aren't, are not wearing one.

    That segments the risk so that the right people are getting immunity more, which raises the herd immunity levels for the benefit of everyone including those having to wear a mask because they're afraid.

    I don't accept the premise that preventing "cases" is a good thing. It may have been early on in the pandemic pre vaccines but it isn't anymore. I don't want cases reduced by NPIs, so them being reduced by NPIs isn't a benefit.

    The BMJ article says how states (and nations) with mask mandates have had lower case rates. That is an argument AGAINST mask mandates for me. Those states have failed to get immunity.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073
    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not too late to delete this.
    Not the response I was hoping for. What have I done wrong 😟
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296
    Dura_Ace said:

    It's not too late to delete this.
    It was actually; you only get 6 mins to edit.
  • It shows the time in Moscow ?
    My guess is the pixellated clock-blocker is a photo of young Wilf.
  • Could I put it to you that maybe none of these people are Roundheads or Cavaliers because those groups ceased to exist over 400 years ago!

    Just saying.
    Indeed (my favourite word today, it seems) and the distinction was always a poor one. Plenty of Parliamentarians came from the Cavalier class and plenty of Royalists came from the lower classes (the term referred to the lower classes not wearing their hair fashionably long).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited December 2021

    60:40. Overwhelming?

    Blair never really had a 'left-wing' base. And it was always understood that Blair would at some point give way to Brown.

    Politics is rarely black and white; wholly good vs wholly evil. Nor does it stand still; it's a living thing and, like all such changes and evolves.
    Something which almost 70 years of watching, sometimes involved, sometimes not has taught me.
    60 40 is a landslide on any definition.

    Labour tolerated Blair as long as he won general elections by big majorities, they never really felt he was leftwing enough.

    As soon as much of his leftwing base deserted him for the LDs in 2005 they forced him out as leader and PM swiftly after in 2007 in favour of Brown
  • Could I put it to you that maybe none of these people are Roundheads or Cavaliers because those groups ceased to exist over 400 years ago!

    Just saying.
    HYUFD has never moved on from the 1750s.

    He actually means it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,481
    edited December 2021
    The leaked photos, they must be able to work out who leaked them. Its a tv on the wall of a clearly identifiable room i.e. the clocks and the art work. Very dumb by whoever took them.

    There can't have been that many people in that room, even by the standards of covid breaking habits of the staff.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Is Max Ver-Crash-en going to take Lewis out?

    There's pretty strict penalties for trying to make the sport interesting.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296

    Not the response I was hoping for. What have I done wrong 😟
    Hyperbole. The truth is bad enough.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,629
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer is undoubtedly a roundhead Puritan Labour leader, whereas Boris is definitely a fun loving Cavalier.

    Indeed it is the clearest contrast between a roundhead Labour leader and a Cavalier Tory leader since Brown v Cameron, albeit under May the Tories had more of a roundhead leader themselves
    May is CofE if I recall :smile:

    But indeed, Essex was Puritan for a bit, and indeed had a Protestant Sect known as the "Peculiar People":
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People

    Founded by James Banyard, no less.

    (quotes badly messed up)
  • HYUFD said:

    60 40 is a landslide on any definition.

    Labour tolerated Blair as long as he won general elections by big majorities, they never really felt he was leftwing enough.

    As soon as his much of his leftwing base deserted him for the LDs in 2005 they forced him out as leader swiftly after in 2007 in favour of Brown
    No-one ever thought Brown was left-wing. He co-founded New Labour and was Blair's BFF (until he wasn't). The difference is Brown was a Party man and Blair was a Blair man.
  • If Hamilton gets fastest lap then he and Vercrashen go out, who is champion? Does Hamilton win the fastest lap point or does he need to finish the race to get that?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296

    HYUFD has never moved on from the 1750s.

    He actually means it.
    1650s shirley?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment we are part Essex roundhead, part Cavalier, as we are also partly in Oxford which was firmly Cavalier and indeed the royalists HQ.

    However the division runs across party lines eg Blair was a cavalier as much as Boris and Cameron and Osborne are as is Portillo and Heseltine and Mandelson. Thatcher was a roundhead as was IDS and Ann Widdecombe say as is May and as was Brown and as is Starmer.

    Corbyn was part cavalier, part roundhead
    Part muppet.
  • @Farooq your problem is you seem to be, like Rochdale, incapable of seeing past "cases = BAD".

    It is a bit rich when you start telling people to deal with their blind spots!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    MattW said:

    May is CofE if I recall :smile:

    But indeed, Essex was Puritan for a bit, and indeed had a Protestant Sect known as the "Peculiar People":
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People

    Founded by James Banyard, no less.

    (quotes badly messed up)
    There was a Peculiar People chapel not too far from where I lived as a boy. And in later life, as an election agent, I used to have to deal with an election official who was a PP deacon. Nice chap; honest and cheerful.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,481
    edited December 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Funny to think that if Owen Paterson had just taken a 30 day suspension on the chin he'd be (nearly) back in the Commons by now.

    Nobody would have remembered either.

    But then its like Big Dom blowing himself up. If he had given it the water works, said he made a terrible mistake because he was scared for his family, resigned, a few soft soap interviews about how he has been targeted by the hate mob and thought he wouldn't be able to protect his family etc, and then 6-12 months, he would have been back.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038

    1650s shirley?
    Indeed, 1750s is a bit too modern for me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038

    No-one ever thought Brown was left-wing. He co-founded New Labour and was Blair's BFF (until he wasn't). The difference is Brown was a Party man and Blair was a Blair man.
    Brown as PM raised the top rate of income tax to 50%, something Blair never contemplated and also spent more than Blair, withdrew the last British forces from Iraq and was less in favour of using the private sector in public services
  • glwglw Posts: 10,365

    Starmer is now not keen on vaccine passports, pitching as reluctantly going with plan B, only last month he didn't think they went far enough and wanted passport++ scheme.

    Starmer's been consistently inconsistent throughout the pandemic. I'm not convinced he'd do a better job than Johnson. May likely would have been on the ball.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,481
    edited December 2021
    He can see the BBC threatened with being slimmed down, at the same time Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Disney throw huge amounts of money at anyone with a scintilla of talent. He sees the BBC's strength in not having budgets, just creativity and letting people get on with it, He notes that at HBO he only has to talk to two people, but at the BBC it's more like eighteen.
    ....
    He also talked about the two notes he got from the BBC when making The Thick Of It, one was to remove Michael Tucker's line "That's as inevitable as what they'll find in Jimmy Savile's basement." Pre-Savile death, of course.

    https://bleedingcool.com/tv/armando-iannucci-says-bbc-needs-to-tell-the-government-to-fck-off/
  • HYUFD said:

    Indeed, 1750s is a bit too modern for me
    Talking of which, anyone heard from Jack W recently?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited December 2021
    Gadfly said:

    I am not trying to defend what happened, but was interested to see this article, which ventures to suggest no laws were broken...

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/did-the-downing-street-party-break-the-law
    The article is premised on a mis-reading of the law as I understand it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,536
    edited December 2021

    If Hamilton gets fastest lap then he and Vercrashen go out, who is champion? Does Hamilton win the fastest lap point or does he need to finish the race to get that?

    You need to finish, in the top ten, for the FL point.

    Crudely, Hamilton will win if he finishes ahead of Verstappen.

    Unless it's a one point place difference and Verstappen has a FL, but I don't think that's feasible.
  • German police start measuring distances between people with folding rulers in public.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1469983528100188160?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,782
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Has BJ gone yet?

    Two titbits:

    1 - UK has stated that the 'current round of fish negotiations is concluded', with about 10-15% of remaining Macron demands fulfilled. Presumably they scraped some evidence together, or made firm decisions where they could.

    Jersey taking a similar position. Now moving on to individual quotas etc.
    https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/news/130-french-boats-can-stay-33-must-go-fishing-negotiations-come-close/#.YbXp-L3P1EY

    So presumably more tantrums incoming soon from Petit Putin.

    UK govt as ever not being proactive enough in pushing back wrt this. Should have done this back in June.

    So Truss's desk is slightly more clear than it was last week.

    2 - France up in arms about a Pres. candidate who has insulted Macron:

    Then this astoundingly contemptuous tirade against Macron: "We will leave in his window this plastic mannequin, this automaton which wanders in a labyrinth of mirrors, this faceless mask which disfigures ours. We will leave this adolescent to seek himself eternally."
    https://twitter.com/frasermatthew/status/1467789119912873986

    Seems rather more polite than the stuff Macron comes out with about elected leaders who won't do what he wants.

    A superb description of Macron. Zemmour can write. I’d vote for him if I were - god forfend - French
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,481
    edited December 2021
    Its rather telling that Zahawi is doing the media rounds this morning talking about Omicron / vaccinations and not the vaccine minister.....
  • Alistair said:

    The article is premised on a mis-reading of the law as I understand it.
    The article is written by a barrister and they are always wrong 50% of the time (one side has to lose in a judgement :wink: ), but it misses the point. People laughing about social distancing and not doing it whilst out in the country people were skipping funerals or watching loved ones die via Zoom or through perspex screens.

    People will not be voting this week on the finer points of law, they will be influenced by what they saw, how they felt and how many friends or family they have lost to the plague
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    edited December 2021

    He can see the BBC threatened with being slimmed down, at the same time Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Disney throw huge amounts of money at anyone with a scintilla of talent. He sees the BBC's strength in not having budgets, just creativity and letting people get on with it, He notes that at HBO he only has to talk to two people, but at the BBC it's more like eighteen.
    ....
    He also talked about the two notes he got from the BBC when making The Thick Of It, one was to remove Michael Tucker's line "That's as inevitable as what they'll find in Jimmy Savile's basement." Pre-Savile death, of course.

    https://bleedingcool.com/tv/armando-iannucci-says-bbc-needs-to-tell-the-government-to-fck-off/

    The problem is that in the BBC, as in much of the public sector, any attempt at efficiency or reducing headcount is fought by slashing the people who do the work, in an attempt to create a backlash.

    I recall an incident where an email from a very stupid administrator in the NHS was published. She boasted that, to push back against administrative savings, she'd put most of the nurses in the cancer section of St Ormund's Street Hospital on notice.

    An interesting thing in the reaction to this was a general sense of "yeah, that's bad, but she was just doing what you do. Look, squirrel", in the press.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,563
    'Bye everyone. Luncheon, and family duties, call. Have fun!
  • GO GO GO GO GO GO
  • Max Ver-Crash-En....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,820
    Drama!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,820
    No investigation necessary!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    Big call by the stewards. Remarkable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    Leon said:

    A superb description of Macron. Zemmour can write. I’d vote for him if I were - god forfend - French
    Macron is a classic of the French Establishment who marketed himself as the polite kind of populist. One would would be acceptable in the fashionable salons as well as the local corner bar. He turned out to be popular in neither.

    He rather reminds me of Blair. Only lesser.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,536
    And so the World Championship will finish in the courts.
  • Michael Masi and the stewards are awesome.
  • My guess is the pixellated clock-blocker is a photo of young Wilf.
    Why does everyone assume that the TV picture shown is actually on the leaker's wall?

    If I was the leaker I would photoshop my TV picture onto a photo of someone else's wall and then obscure something in the picture to give it veracity.

    How many politicians have 3 world clocks on their mantelpiece?
This discussion has been closed.