The Channel Migrant tragedy on many of the front pages – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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The only grain of comfort in this whole tragedy is that it reduces the chances of the Pritster succeeding BoZononeoftheabove said:We also need to educate the electorate better. Because even if somehow Johnson and Macron grew up, someone else would quickly fill the void and realise exploiting tensions between the two countries = more votes and we would be back to square one with different leaders.
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Does it?Scott_xP said:
The only grain of comfort in this whole tragedy is that it reduces the chances of the Pritster succeeding BoZononeoftheabove said:We also need to educate the electorate better. Because even if somehow Johnson and Macron grew up, someone else would quickly fill the void and realise exploiting tensions between the two countries = more votes and we would be back to square one with different leaders.
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The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/14641567781664235523
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Stopping these migrants is her job right now, and she can't do it.noneoftheabove said:Does it?
Why would she get a promotion?0 -
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
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Can I remind you that the most incompetent Foreign Secretary in living memory ( Mrs Zaghari Ratcliffe and Rudyard Kipling say hello) was promoted way, way beyond his ability.Scott_xP said:
Stopping these migrants is her job right now, and she can't do it.noneoftheabove said:Does it?
Why would she get a promotion?4 -
I am not the right person to understand how the Tory selectorate minds work, and with respect I am not sure you are in tune with their mindset either. I am not saying this helps her, but I would caution against assuming it damages her. Media coverage where she is being tough but the French obstinate may well be fine even if the outcome is ineffective.Scott_xP said:
Stopping these migrants is her job right now, and she can't do it.noneoftheabove said:Does it?
Why would she get a promotion?3 -
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.2 -
It depends who her opponent is.noneoftheabove said:I am not the right person to understand how the Tory selectorate minds work, and with respect I am not sure you are in tune with their mindset either. I am not saying this helps her, but I would caution against assuming it damages her. Media coverage where she is being tough but the French obstinate may well be fine even if the outcome is ineffective.
If they promise to be harder on immigrants without her history of failure she is in trouble0 -
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)6 -
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
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French stopping one person crossing the Channel... https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/14641588871128555740
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Yes, despite the naive claims that “we love Europe, not the EU”, Brexit was always going to fracture relationships with our neighbours and - to the extent we need those relationships - pisspoor outcomes.Jonathan said:
Nationalism is bullshit whichever side of the channel it comes from. One of my worries about Brexit was that it would revive this historic English-French nonsense. It's depressing that politicians have seized upon this so readily. They need to grow up.turbotubbs said:
Absolutely. And yet we are not the only ones doing this. Remember the hoopla about AZ earlier in the year from our European friends and allies. We all need to be better.Jonathan said:
Avoid cheap political point scoring for domestic purposes and find ways to work together. That’s a good place to start.NerysHughes said:
I wonder what people think the UK can do when the French police stand and watch the boats leave France.eek said:
It's not creating a conflict, it's just telling France that we aren't going to do anything.SouthamObserver said:
Why anyone would expect anything more from this PM is beyond me. He has had an incredibly difficult fortnight. Now he has an opportunity to deliver a further conflict with the French to his base. Of course he is going to take it. And it will work like a charm.Scott_xP said:If you tried to write a letter designed to irritate France, this would be it:
1 self-congratulate and take moral high ground
2 make letter public, to enhance 1
3 tell France and EU to do more to patrol a border that the UK left EU in order to regain control over
Breathtaking
https://twitter.com/PedderSophie/status/1464139057915650061
As we all know it's an impossible situation which means Boris has to blame France as that's the only optioon he has left.4 -
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control0 -
John Bull
@garius
We've hit the point where Johnson knows his survival depends on starting an actual war with France.
As any EU4 player knows, this is going to end with them taking Kent and 10% of our annual income as war reps.
9:03 AM · Nov 26, 2021·Talon Android
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John Bull
@garius
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@garius
Which is going to be super fucking annoying, as I don't see why the Brexity people of Chatham should get to be EU citizens again while I don't.5 -
"Why did he publish it?" A question that will be answered by the incoming opinion poll (re) crossover.Northern_Al said:
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.2 -
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.0 -
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.Northern_Al said:
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.5 -
It was of course Merkel too in opening the borders from Syria to Europe so widely rather than settling asylum seekers in safe havens in the Middle East which likely played some role in the swing which pushed Leave over the line in 2016eek said:
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)0 -
Good morning
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better0 -
Sorry but people have been camping outside Calais since the early 2000's well before 2016.HYUFD said:
It was of course Merkel too in opening the borders from Syria to Europe so widely rather than settling asylum seekers in safe havens in the Middle East which likely played some role in the swing which pushed Leave over the line in 2016eek said:
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)0 -
Meanwhile the drownings continue.HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
I don't dispute both are as bad as each other. Xenophobia and petty nationalism prevail. Whatever happened to the post-war dream?1 -
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands0 -
I love the idea that people don't assume that very local issues and personalities are never factors in local council byelections - it's always national politics and that day's news story.Big_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better2 -
The Bedford (Wandsworth) by-election result is not what an opposition should ge getting, holding on by one vote with a big swing to the current governing party who have just been through a very difficult month.Big_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better
I remember the Mid 90s, Labour would have won this seat by 40%.:
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Likely also to be multilingual. Refugees and immigrants are more likely to set up businesses too.OldKingCole said:
Young or relatively young people keen to to provide better lives for themselves and their dependents. And prepared to go through considerable difficulties to do so.Charles said:
On what basis are you making the judgement in the second paragraph? (The one about being an asset to the country). Interested in your evidentiary support.OldKingCole said:
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.Sandpit said:
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.CarlottaVance said:French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
https://twitter.com/simonjonesnews/status/1464130103630344197?s=21
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.0 -
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views4 -
Forget push and pull factors, for a moment.
At the end of the day, the government needs to properly fund the necessary patrol and processing operations.
By all means figure out a better partnership with France, but that is a side issue. The more Boris or Priti talk about France, the less they are interested in addressing the issue.0 -
In keeping with his love of British childrens TV characters he is paying homage to Bungle.IanB2 said:
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.Northern_Al said:
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.5 -
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.Dura_Ace said:
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views0 -
People say that the 'migrant issue' is an intractably difficult, hard problem. But it is actually pretty simple.
There are billions of people in the world who undoubtedly live in unsavoury regimes with human rights problems, who fear for their personal safety; and thus have a legitimate reason to try and migrate to the west, the UK included.
Should they all have a theoretical right to migrate to the UK?
If the answer is yes, then you have to deal with a rapid population increase and all the social, environmental and political consequences that entails.
If the answer is no, then you have to stop people coming in at all;deport them back from where they came, or put them in a prison camp; as they do in certain other countries.
The problem is absolutely horrible. But it won't go away.
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They do have an incentive. Stopping the flow will mean many of the migrants don't head to France in the first place. Apparently many are coming from Belgium/Netherlands etc. So the French do have an interest in shutting this down.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
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Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.HYUFD said:
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?2 -
Johnson Patel and BrexitMexicanpete said:
Meanwhile the drownings continue.HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
I don't dispute both are as bad as each other. Xenophobia and petty nationalism prevail. Whatever happened to the post-war dream?1 -
Ms Patel's parents come to mind.rkrkrk said:
Likely also to be multilingual. Refugees and immigrants are more likely to set up businesses too.OldKingCole said:
Young or relatively young people keen to to provide better lives for themselves and their dependents. And prepared to go through considerable difficulties to do so.Charles said:
On what basis are you making the judgement in the second paragraph? (The one about being an asset to the country). Interested in your evidentiary support.OldKingCole said:
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.Sandpit said:
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.CarlottaVance said:French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
https://twitter.com/simonjonesnews/status/1464130103630344197?s=21
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.0 -
Remove the word 'diplomatic', I suggest.IanB2 said:
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.Northern_Al said:
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.0 -
Yes. Dealing with the presenting micro problems is a substitution activity for real thought about the real problems. And, like bad governance elsewhere, kills people while we are doing it.darkage said:People say that the 'migrant issue' is an intractably difficult, hard problem. But it is actually pretty simple.
There are billions of people in the world who undoubtedly live in unsavoury regimes with human rights problems, who fear for their personal safety; and thus have a legitimate reason to try and migrate to the west, the UK included.
Should they all have a theoretical right to migrate to the UK?
If the answer is yes, then you have to deal with a rapid population increase and all the social, environmental and political consequences that entails.
If the answer is no, then you have to stop people coming in at all;deport them back from where they came, or put them in a prison camp; as they do in certain other countries.
The problem is absolutely horrible. But it won't go away.
The starting point must be that every regime from which people are fleeing is a fellow member of the UN, but the UN imposes a disparity of obligations, which places an enormous burden on some regimes, a politically sticky one on others (including UK and France) while Assad and North Korea and the Taliban do exactly as they like while retaining the benefits but not the burdens of UN membership.
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Mr. Walker, the lack of funding for such patrols is curious, given they're in the south and nowhere near Leeds.0
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Lack of available workers and Nimbys.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Walker, the lack of funding for such patrols is curious, given they're in the south and nowhere near Leeds.
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The letter, by the way, was not for France.
It was for the Daily Mail.
Boris has no intention whatsoever of addressing this issue.2 -
Well the range of views go fromGardenwalker said:
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.Dura_Ace said:
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here
Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)0 -
Shorter sea crossing, of course. Can see the French coast, as someone upthread point out, from Dover.Omnium said:
They do have an incentive. Stopping the flow will mean many of the migrants don't head to France in the first place. Apparently many are coming from Belgium/Netherlands etc. So the French do have an interest in shutting this down.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
I can assure everyone that you couldn't see the Dutch coast from Harwich, even if the Dutch coast had cliffs.
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Patel has continued to announce scaled up activity on the Channel, but there hasn’t been any.
The reason is that it costs money.0 -
Kettle: Boris Johnson’s CBI speech may prove to be one of those moments that damningly define a prime minister in the public mind and which they can never shake off. Many will hope that something reputation-puncturing happened to Johnson this week. And perhaps it did.
Kuenssberg is too important and reliable a reporter for these ["it's just not working"] remarks to have been either casual asides or unrepresentative whinging. Their message is a devastating one, that Johnson and his team are not up to the job. They imply that changes are required at the centre if the Conservatives are to emerge, from a winter dominated by the cost of living, Covid and the Channel migration crisis, in a position to win the next general election.
Britain’s embrace of Johnsonism in 2016 and 2019 is now confronted by Johnsonism’s in-built unworkability in practice. Faced with an irreconcilable, the Tory party will eventually have to make a choice. Either it will bet the farm on Johnsonism, or it will try to rein it in.
While Germany is about to make a seamless transition to Olaf Scholz’s chancellorship, Britain faces a governmental emergency. No 10’s lack of a team, a structure and a shared ethos adds up to a humiliating verdict on this country’s politics. Solving the problem posed by the chaotic Johnson court is the priority of the day. The question is whether, in the light of the way that Johnson has governed since 2019, it is even remotely possible to solve.0 -
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/14641469811362611222 -
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?Mexicanpete said:
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.HYUFD said:
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?1 -
Apparently the meeting on Sunday that Patel is not now going to includes France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and the EU and it is the EU expressing concern, not only about the channel crossings but the pull factor through Belarus into the EU overwhelming their own policies, and making the channel coast problems much worse as the UK is the migrants main destination.
Ultimately the UK has to be part of these discussions and let's hope cooler heads prevail0 -
At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.1 -
Theoretically, there are a “range of views”.Malmesbury said:
Well the range of views go fromGardenwalker said:
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.Dura_Ace said:
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here
Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
In practical terms, 99% desire zero channel crossings.
Even those who are open to more asylum seekers don’t think dangerous channel crossings are the way to do it.
So, over to you Boris/Priti.0 -
I find the attempts to er.... de-toxify the people smugglers... interesting.
1 -
Yes because Libya was so great under Gaddaffi and Iraq was so great under Saddam? Refugees still came from Syria even when we didn't intervene.Mexicanpete said:
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.HYUFD said:
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
The fact is as long as you can earn far more in western Europe than African migrants will still come even if they are peaceful democracies. What we need is somewhere to process the claims so we only allow in those in genuine fear of persecution and those whose skills we genuinely need0 -
I find the character of Captain Renard interesting. Rapist, murderer, swindler, corrupt policeman, works for the Fascists willingly, only changes sides after the Gestapo take the piss out of his self importance.NickPalmer said:
Absolutely, and very well put.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Not many days go by that I don't muse on Casablanca, the greatest film ever made. It's one of those films that covers so many themes and whose humanity and heart is so deep that it has something to say on pretty much anything you care to think of. Certainly it has a message on refugees and migration. Not just the Bulgarian couple escaping oppression there ("the devil has the people by the throat") who Rick rescues from the awful moral compromise they are almost forced into in order to escape, but the elderly Austrian couple speaking only English ("what watch? Such much!") in preparation for their trip, who Carl reassures will "get along beautiful in America".Foxy said:I was musing on the classic 1942 film Casablanca the other day. There are several plot strands but perhaps the most interesting is the "letters of transit" stolen by the Peter Lorre character and hidden by Bogarts character Rick, who later passes them on. These stolen documents permit the bearer free travel to neutral Portugal, and then onwards to the USA.
Is Rick the most celebrated "People Trafficker" in movie history? And should the Lazlos had to claim asylum in Portugal rather than the USA?
The greatest irony of the film is that the actor who plays Major Strasser, the Nazi baddie, was himself a refugee from Nazi Germany. Indeed, the whole film was made by European emigrees, which perhaps explains why it is so sympathetic to the plight of refugees.0 -
Morning all! Glad to see the status quo is preserved - virtue-signalling to ghouls against the enemy is worth more than trying to actually work multilaterally on a solution.0
-
Tony Blair: Reject Corbynism and the culture wars — how Labour can win again
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/32c29612-4e0d-11ec-9bc6-5abf98655bc4?shareToken=3c583a532e665a02b1fa9a73ca039882
https://institute.global/policy/red-walls-red-bridges-rebuilding-labours-voter-coalition?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=red-walls-26nov0 -
Sadly, (1) is a moral hazard that will simply make the issue worse.Philip_Thompson said:At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
It is obvious we are left with variants of (2).1 -
Yep. Mass loss of life in the Channel and he prioritizes bad faith, nakedly self-serving "Boris tells Macron to sort it" media coverage and a high profile bust up with France over any serious attempt to work with them on a practical response. I try and squash my expectations of PM Boris Johnson sufficiently to avoid being disappointed by him but it's like chasing my own tail.SouthamObserver said:
Johnson needs another row with France to take minds off all his other troubles. The letter he wrote to Macron yesterday was designed to achieve that - and it has succeeded. His only interest is in keeping his voting coalition together. This is the way to do it.OldKingCole said:
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.Sandpit said:
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.CarlottaVance said:French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
https://twitter.com/simonjonesnews/status/1464130103630344197?s=21
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.2 -
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.MalcolmDunn said:Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
2 -
Emmanuel Macron on Boris Johnson's letter/Twitter thread: ‘I am surprised by the methods when they are not serious, we do not communicate by tweets’ https://twitter.com/bfmtv/status/14641651693413867590
-
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.0 -
I'm not so sure.Gardenwalker said:
Theoretically, there are a “range of views”.Malmesbury said:
Well the range of views go fromGardenwalker said:
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.Dura_Ace said:
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here
Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
In practical terms, 99% desire zero channel crossings.
Even those who are open to more asylum seekers don’t think dangerous channel crossings are the way to do it.
So, over to you Boris/Priti.
1) The Royal Navy is short of sailors.
2) The migrants are demonstrating considerable seamanship.
3) Pick them up at the UK 3 mile limit, and conscript them into the Royal Navy.
4) Send them on a nice long deployment, immediately.0 -
Even if it were true about applying in the first safe country (it’s not):RochdalePioneers said:
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.MalcolmDunn said:Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
should-a, could-a, would-a
as they say on Judge Judy.1 -
They seem nice enough peopleMalmesbury said:I find the attempts to er.... de-toxify the people smugglers... interesting.
Smuggler shot migrant in the kneecaps when he refused to board boat
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/bit-like-drowning-scene-film-titanic/0 -
The Greens almost let the Tories in last night in Wandsworth
Bedford (Wandsworth) by-election result:
LAB: 40.2% (-9.8)
CON: 40.2% (+5.7)
GRN: 13.6% (+4.3)
LDEM: 6.0% (-0.2)
Labour HOLD.
One vote in it!
Chgs. w/ 2018
0 -
Maybe you could learn from MacronScott_xP said:Emmanuel Macron on Boris Johnson's letter/Twitter thread: ‘I am surprised by the methods when they are not serious, we do not communicate by tweets’ https://twitter.com/bfmtv/status/1464165169341386759
'We do not communicate by tweets'
The irony in that post is so amusing2 -
The difference between "can" and "should" - they "can" apply anywhere, but "should" they apply for asylum when they are already in a safe country?RochdalePioneers said:
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.MalcolmDunn said:Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
0 -
Same person
“A woman accused of indecent exposure, masturbating in public and using a sex toy in a public place, will stand trial early next year.
Chloe Thompson, of Borough Road, Middlesbrough, appeared at Teesside Magistrates' Court on Wednesday after denying the offences.
She is charged with committing a public nuisance by indecently exposing her penis to other members of the public, whilst masturbating from a property window.”
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-woman-accused-using-sex-22260053
Ten years earlier…
“ A FORMER serviceman who touched a pre-teenage schoolgirl was jailed for a year, prompting loud gasps in court.
Andrew Douglas McNab, 31, took advantage of the underage girl when he sexually assaulted her.
He said he molested her in a “moment of madness” while weak and mentally scarred from his Army service, Teesside Crown Court heard.”
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/sex-assault-shame-teesside-ex-soldier-3692966
1 -
Funny, I don't recall Rick doing that in Casablanca.....IshmaelZ said:
They seem nice enough peopleMalmesbury said:I find the attempts to er.... de-toxify the people smugglers... interesting.
Smuggler shot migrant in the kneecaps when he refused to board boat
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/bit-like-drowning-scene-film-titanic/0 -
Not unless you think Scott XP is trying to negotiate with France too.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe you could learn from MacronScott_xP said:Emmanuel Macron on Boris Johnson's letter/Twitter thread: ‘I am surprised by the methods when they are not serious, we do not communicate by tweets’ https://twitter.com/bfmtv/status/1464165169341386759
'We do not communicate by tweets'
The irony in that post is so amusing
Your hero Boris has been caught playing to the gallery again.
Not obvious perhaps if you are the gallery.1 -
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.0 -
It seems like a normal series of administrative fuck-ups, namely:OldKingCole said:
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?Mexicanpete said:
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.HYUFD said:
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
- Ship full of ammonium nitrate has mechanical or financial problems, docks in Beirut
- Owner goes bankrupt, government takes ownership of ship over unpaid fines
- Ship in danger of sinking, government unloads the ammonium nitrate and sticks it in a warehouse not really designed for it
- Customs tries to get legal permission to sell the stuff, judge never gets around to it because developing-nation legal systems so it just sits there for years
- Somebody maybe decided to store some fireworks in the building too for good measure
- Doors need some welding work done
- Boom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion2 -
It's in the Director's CutMalmesbury said:
Funny, I don't recall Rick doing that in Casablanca.....IshmaelZ said:
They seem nice enough peopleMalmesbury said:I find the attempts to er.... de-toxify the people smugglers... interesting.
Smuggler shot migrant in the kneecaps when he refused to board boat
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/bit-like-drowning-scene-film-titanic/0 -
Which is why even if we had an agreement that the UK border force could patrol in France, they are not keen to do soIshmaelZ said:They seem nice enough people
Smuggler shot migrant in the kneecaps when he refused to board boat
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/bit-like-drowning-scene-film-titanic/0 -
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.DecrepiterJohnL said:
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1464146981136261122
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.0 -
Boris is no hero of mine but then that decision is upto his mpsGardenwalker said:
Not unless you think Scott XP is trying to negotiate with France too.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe you could learn from MacronScott_xP said:Emmanuel Macron on Boris Johnson's letter/Twitter thread: ‘I am surprised by the methods when they are not serious, we do not communicate by tweets’ https://twitter.com/bfmtv/status/1464165169341386759
'We do not communicate by tweets'
The irony in that post is so amusing
Your hero Boris has been caught playing to the gallery again.
Not obvious perhaps if you are the gallery.
I would be happy to see Rishi in place today0 -
Indeed. If people are crossing into the UK they should be doing so via legal routes on planes, not via sinkable dinghies.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, (1) is a moral hazard that will simply make the issue worse.Philip_Thompson said:At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
It is obvious we are left with variants of (2).0 -
The key fact is the Tory vote went up more than the Greens, despite everything that has happened in the past month.isam said:The Greens almost let the Tories in last night in Wandsworth
Bedford (Wandsworth) by-election result:
LAB: 40.2% (-9.8)
CON: 40.2% (+5.7)
GRN: 13.6% (+4.3)
LDEM: 6.0% (-0.2)
Labour HOLD.
One vote in it!
Chgs. w/ 2018
Not forgetting that 12 years into opposition Labour are losing votes in Local Council By-Elections1 -
Hmm. Thanks. Not sure I'd call Lebanon a developing nation. Given what the Israelis and the Syrians have done to it over the past thirty or so years, I'd calling it a regressing one.edmundintokyo said:
It seems like a normal series of administrative fuck-ups, namely:OldKingCole said:
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?Mexicanpete said:
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.HYUFD said:
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.eek said:
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?HYUFD said:
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.Mexicanpete said:
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?HYUFD said:
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have nowScott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
- Ship full of ammonium nitrate has mechanical or financial problems, docks in Beirut
- Owner goes bankrupt, government takes ownership of ship over unpaid fines
- Ship in danger of sinking, government unloads the ammonium nitrate and sticks it in a warehouse not really designed for it
- Customs tries to get legal permission to sell the stuff, judge never gets around to it because developing-nation legal systems so it just sits there for years
- Somebody maybe decided to store some fireworks in the building too for good measure
- Doors need some welding work done
- Boom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion0 -
Not really - she can get on the Eurostar whenever she likes...Scott_xP said:French stopping one person crossing the Channel... https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/1464158887112855574
0 -
Oborne was a big fan of Gordon BrownPhilip_Thompson said:
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.DecrepiterJohnL said:
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1464146981136261122
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.0 -
I really hope that's not the case - that the polls swing strongly Con again - or if it is that migrants are not the reason. I can see it though. As I've said before, I don't think this mess in the Channel is good for Labour even if the government get the blame for it right now. Fact is, 'strong borders' and 'no soft touch for migrants and refugees' is fundamentally Tory and populist right territory. I can't see many people with that Daily Express take on this issue switching to Labour at the election because of it, regardless of how Starmer plays things.Mexicanpete said:
"Why did he publish it?" A question that will be answered by the incoming opinion poll (re) crossover.Northern_Al said:
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.eek said:Following Boris's letter to France, France has cancelled Priti's meeting
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10245249/France-CANCELS-meeting-Priti-Patel-wake-deaths-27-migrants.html
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.1 -
I suspect he didn’t mind May?HYUFD said:
Oborne was a big fan of Gordon BrownPhilip_Thompson said:
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.DecrepiterJohnL said:
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1464146981136261122
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.0 -
What's wrong with what we are doing today. Strenuously (!) discouraging migrants, having laws and processes in place to filter out genuine asylum seekers, while at the same time humanely dealing with those that ignore the warnings and come anyway.Philip_Thompson said:At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
Now of course the Tories, the party of Laura Norder, don't seem very good at the laws and processes to filter out and act upon non-genuine asylum seekers but in principle the system is just about doing what it was once designed to do. A few thousand people trying to cross the channel which they always will do regardless of illusory deals with Albania.
I don't see that the current situation is particularly broken aside from headlines in the Daily Express if you are Boris Johnson.0 -
BREAKING. #ISRAELI PM SAYS "WE ARE CURRENTLY ON THE VERGE OF A STATE OF EMERGENCY" REGARDING NEW CORONAVIRUS VARIANT (Reuters)
https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1464168201022066714?s=210 -
Hypocritical bullshit from the French. They do “diplomacy”-by-tweet all the timeScott_xP said:Emmanuel Macron on Boris Johnson's letter/Twitter thread: ‘I am surprised by the methods when they are not serious, we do not communicate by tweets’ https://twitter.com/bfmtv/status/1464165169341386759
Philip Thompson pretty starkly lays out our options above. Them’s the choices. Unless we repeal the HRA and start towing them back to France1 -
Chill guys, this new variant shit is handled. Grant "Michael Greene" Shapps in on Sky News. Two flegs (Butcher's Apron and Civil Aviation Standard), empty red box and his fucking wig are all conspicuously on display.0
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How many were returned ?Scott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
0 -
This is the far right tory lieHYUFD said:
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.0 -
Jesus F Christ
How bad is this Nu variant?
Javid looks absolutely terrified here. Rabbit-in-headlights eyes. Like he has just been briefed that bubonic plague is next. Perhaps it is
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1463983419495526403?s=210 -
The government has actually done the right thing for a change, in suspending flights from Southern Africa.
We may need to go further and suspend all air travel temporarily. Acting decisively has always been the right choice with this virus.0 -
You'd have to look under the desk to see him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would be happy to see Rishi in place today2 -
285.another_richard said:
How many were returned ?Scott_xP said:The UK had the right to return asylum seekers to other EU countries as an EU member state. Then Boris Johnson campaigned to take back control. https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1464156778166423552
0 -
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?Heathener said:
This is the far right tory lieHYUFD said:
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.1 -
Fact.
Big G weighs SEVEN Rishis.0 -
We could also suspend all sea crossings, especially around the Channel, thus neatly solving our two contemporary problems in one goGardenwalker said:The government has actually done the right thing for a change, in suspending flights from Southern Africa.
We may need to go further and suspend all air travel temporarily. Acting decisively has always been the right choice with this virus.0 -
Is it more infective or more dangerous ?Leon said:
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?Heathener said:
This is the far right tory lieHYUFD said:
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
I doubt it will be both.0 -
He preferred May to Cameron and Boris and Brown to Blair yesGardenwalker said:
I suspect he didn’t mind May?HYUFD said:
Oborne was a big fan of Gordon BrownPhilip_Thompson said:
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.DecrepiterJohnL said:
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1464146981136261122
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6559347/PETER-OBORNE-Theresa-deserves-better-narcissists.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021847/PETER-OBORNE-Why-fit-Gordon-Browns-shoes.html0 -
More infective normally means less dangerous, as both are in its 'evolutionary interests'another_richard said:
Is it more infective or more dangerous ?Leon said:
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?Heathener said:
This is the far right tory lieHYUFD said:
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
I doubt it will be both.0 -
Is that true, though, for delta versus beta?another_richard said:
Is it more infective or more dangerous ?Leon said:
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?Heathener said:
This is the far right tory lieHYUFD said:
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from itHeathener said:"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
I doubt it will be both.0 -
There's 24GW of installed wind in the UK. Unless you are planning absolutely massive storage facilities, I don't see how the UK could possibly just that much - even including the electrification of domestic heating and road transport.LostPassword said:
Given the increase in electricity consumption implied by electrifying land transport and domestic heating and industry I would think we need to aim for closer to ten times our current wind capacity.DavidL said:
In the longer run what we would actually need is something like 45GW (to pick a number at random) and the capacity to store the surplus efficiently for use when it is not windy. Whilst 24 GW would clearly be an improvement it too is not sufficient. Still, at least our gas consumption is temporarily reduced.Pulpstar said:12 GW being generated by wind of 32 GW total demand. It's not good enough, it ought to be at least double that when there's a moderate storm about.
And add tidal, mini-nukes, interconnectors to Moroccan solar...
0 -
To be fair to Oborne, Boris, Blair and to some extent Cameron, are all dodgy AF.HYUFD said:
He preferred May to Cameron and Boris and Brown to Blair yesGardenwalker said:
I suspect he didn’t mind May?HYUFD said:
Oborne was a big fan of Gordon BrownPhilip_Thompson said:
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.DecrepiterJohnL said:
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.turbotubbs said:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...Scott_xP said:Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
We've put another dozen posts up overnight.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1464146981136261122
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6559347/PETER-OBORNE-Theresa-deserves-better-narcissists.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021847/PETER-OBORNE-Why-fit-Gordon-Browns-shoes.html0
