We also need to educate the electorate better. Because even if somehow Johnson and Macron grew up, someone else would quickly fill the void and realise exploiting tensions between the two countries = more votes and we would be back to square one with different leaders.
The only grain of comfort in this whole tragedy is that it reduces the chances of the Pritster succeeding BoZo
We also need to educate the electorate better. Because even if somehow Johnson and Macron grew up, someone else would quickly fill the void and realise exploiting tensions between the two countries = more votes and we would be back to square one with different leaders.
The only grain of comfort in this whole tragedy is that it reduces the chances of the Pritster succeeding BoZo
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Stopping these migrants is her job right now, and she can't do it.
Why would she get a promotion?
Can I remind you that the most incompetent Foreign Secretary in living memory ( Mrs Zaghari Ratcliffe and Rudyard Kipling say hello) was promoted way, way beyond his ability.
Stopping these migrants is her job right now, and she can't do it.
Why would she get a promotion?
I am not the right person to understand how the Tory selectorate minds work, and with respect I am not sure you are in tune with their mindset either. I am not saying this helps her, but I would caution against assuming it damages her. Media coverage where she is being tough but the French obstinate may well be fine even if the outcome is ineffective.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
I am not the right person to understand how the Tory selectorate minds work, and with respect I am not sure you are in tune with their mindset either. I am not saying this helps her, but I would caution against assuming it damages her. Media coverage where she is being tough but the French obstinate may well be fine even if the outcome is ineffective.
It depends who her opponent is.
If they promise to be harder on immigrants without her history of failure she is in trouble
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
If you tried to write a letter designed to irritate France, this would be it: 1 self-congratulate and take moral high ground 2 make letter public, to enhance 1 3 tell France and EU to do more to patrol a border that the UK left EU in order to regain control over
Why anyone would expect anything more from this PM is beyond me. He has had an incredibly difficult fortnight. Now he has an opportunity to deliver a further conflict with the French to his base. Of course he is going to take it. And it will work like a charm.
It's not creating a conflict, it's just telling France that we aren't going to do anything.
As we all know it's an impossible situation which means Boris has to blame France as that's the only optioon he has left.
I wonder what people think the UK can do when the French police stand and watch the boats leave France.
Avoid cheap political point scoring for domestic purposes and find ways to work together. That’s a good place to start.
Absolutely. And yet we are not the only ones doing this. Remember the hoopla about AZ earlier in the year from our European friends and allies. We all need to be better.
Nationalism is bullshit whichever side of the channel it comes from. One of my worries about Brexit was that it would revive this historic English-French nonsense. It's depressing that politicians have seized upon this so readily. They need to grow up.
Yes, despite the naive claims that “we love Europe, not the EU”, Brexit was always going to fracture relationships with our neighbours and - to the extent we need those relationships - pisspoor outcomes.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
John Bull @garius We've hit the point where Johnson knows his survival depends on starting an actual war with France.
As any EU4 player knows, this is going to end with them taking Kent and 10% of our annual income as war reps. 9:03 AM · Nov 26, 2021·Talon Android 9 Retweets 32 Likes
John Bull @garius · 4m Replying to @garius Which is going to be super fucking annoying, as I don't see why the Brexity people of Chatham should get to be EU citizens again while I don't.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
"Why did he publish it?" A question that will be answered by the incoming opinion poll (re) crossover.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)
It was of course Merkel too in opening the borders from Syria to Europe so widely rather than settling asylum seekers in safe havens in the Middle East which likely played some role in the swing which pushed Leave over the line in 2016
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
But only if they started their journey to the EU from within the UK, which was so rare that it was never used. So if you are claiming it's a 2 way street you are again demonstrating that you haven't thought things through nor done any research.
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)
It was of course Merkel too in opening the borders from Syria to Europe so widely rather than settling asylum seekers in safe havens in the Middle East which likely played some role in the swing which pushed Leave over the line in 2016
Sorry but people have been camping outside Calais since the early 2000's well before 2016.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Meanwhile the drownings continue.
I don't dispute both are as bad as each other. Xenophobia and petty nationalism prevail. Whatever happened to the post-war dream?
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better
I love the idea that people don't assume that very local issues and personalities are never factors in local council byelections - it's always national politics and that day's news story.
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better
The Bedford (Wandsworth) by-election result is not what an opposition should ge getting, holding on by one vote with a big swing to the current governing party who have just been through a very difficult month.
I remember the Mid 90s, Labour would have won this seat by 40%.:
French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.
On what basis are you making the judgement in the second paragraph? (The one about being an asset to the country). Interested in your evidentiary support.
Young or relatively young people keen to to provide better lives for themselves and their dependents. And prepared to go through considerable difficulties to do so.
Likely also to be multilingual. Refugees and immigrants are more likely to set up businesses too.
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.
At the end of the day, the government needs to properly fund the necessary patrol and processing operations.
By all means figure out a better partnership with France, but that is a side issue. The more Boris or Priti talk about France, the less they are interested in addressing the issue.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.
In keeping with his love of British childrens TV characters he is paying homage to Bungle.
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.
People say that the 'migrant issue' is an intractably difficult, hard problem. But it is actually pretty simple.
There are billions of people in the world who undoubtedly live in unsavoury regimes with human rights problems, who fear for their personal safety; and thus have a legitimate reason to try and migrate to the west, the UK included.
Should they all have a theoretical right to migrate to the UK?
If the answer is yes, then you have to deal with a rapid population increase and all the social, environmental and political consequences that entails.
If the answer is no, then you have to stop people coming in at all;deport them back from where they came, or put them in a prison camp; as they do in certain other countries.
The problem is absolutely horrible. But it won't go away.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They do have an incentive. Stopping the flow will mean many of the migrants don't head to France in the first place. Apparently many are coming from Belgium/Netherlands etc. So the French do have an interest in shutting this down.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Meanwhile the drownings continue.
I don't dispute both are as bad as each other. Xenophobia and petty nationalism prevail. Whatever happened to the post-war dream?
French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.
On what basis are you making the judgement in the second paragraph? (The one about being an asset to the country). Interested in your evidentiary support.
Young or relatively young people keen to to provide better lives for themselves and their dependents. And prepared to go through considerable difficulties to do so.
Likely also to be multilingual. Refugees and immigrants are more likely to set up businesses too.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
There doesn't seem to be any diplomatic situation that our PM cannot make worse.
People say that the 'migrant issue' is an intractably difficult, hard problem. But it is actually pretty simple.
There are billions of people in the world who undoubtedly live in unsavoury regimes with human rights problems, who fear for their personal safety; and thus have a legitimate reason to try and migrate to the west, the UK included.
Should they all have a theoretical right to migrate to the UK?
If the answer is yes, then you have to deal with a rapid population increase and all the social, environmental and political consequences that entails.
If the answer is no, then you have to stop people coming in at all;deport them back from where they came, or put them in a prison camp; as they do in certain other countries.
The problem is absolutely horrible. But it won't go away.
Yes. Dealing with the presenting micro problems is a substitution activity for real thought about the real problems. And, like bad governance elsewhere, kills people while we are doing it.
The starting point must be that every regime from which people are fleeing is a fellow member of the UN, but the UN imposes a disparity of obligations, which places an enormous burden on some regimes, a politically sticky one on others (including UK and France) while Assad and North Korea and the Taliban do exactly as they like while retaining the benefits but not the burdens of UN membership.
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.
Well the range of views go from
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They do have an incentive. Stopping the flow will mean many of the migrants don't head to France in the first place. Apparently many are coming from Belgium/Netherlands etc. So the French do have an interest in shutting this down.
Shorter sea crossing, of course. Can see the French coast, as someone upthread point out, from Dover. I can assure everyone that you couldn't see the Dutch coast from Harwich, even if the Dutch coast had cliffs.
Kettle: Boris Johnson’s CBI speech may prove to be one of those moments that damningly define a prime minister in the public mind and which they can never shake off. Many will hope that something reputation-puncturing happened to Johnson this week. And perhaps it did.
Kuenssberg is too important and reliable a reporter for these ["it's just not working"] remarks to have been either casual asides or unrepresentative whinging. Their message is a devastating one, that Johnson and his team are not up to the job. They imply that changes are required at the centre if the Conservatives are to emerge, from a winter dominated by the cost of living, Covid and the Channel migration crisis, in a position to win the next general election.
Britain’s embrace of Johnsonism in 2016 and 2019 is now confronted by Johnsonism’s in-built unworkability in practice. Faced with an irreconcilable, the Tory party will eventually have to make a choice. Either it will bet the farm on Johnsonism, or it will try to rein it in.
While Germany is about to make a seamless transition to Olaf Scholz’s chancellorship, Britain faces a governmental emergency. No 10’s lack of a team, a structure and a shared ethos adds up to a humiliating verdict on this country’s politics. Solving the problem posed by the chaotic Johnson court is the priority of the day. The question is whether, in the light of the way that Johnson has governed since 2019, it is even remotely possible to solve.
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?
Apparently the meeting on Sunday that Patel is not now going to includes France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and the EU and it is the EU expressing concern, not only about the channel crossings but the pull factor through Belarus into the EU overwhelming their own policies, and making the channel coast problems much worse as the UK is the migrants main destination.
Ultimately the UK has to be part of these discussions and let's hope cooler heads prevail
At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.
Well the range of views go from
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
Theoretically, there are a “range of views”.
In practical terms, 99% desire zero channel crossings.
Even those who are open to more asylum seekers don’t think dangerous channel crossings are the way to do it.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
Yes because Libya was so great under Gaddaffi and Iraq was so great under Saddam? Refugees still came from Syria even when we didn't intervene.
The fact is as long as you can earn far more in western Europe than African migrants will still come even if they are peaceful democracies. What we need is somewhere to process the claims so we only allow in those in genuine fear of persecution and those whose skills we genuinely need
I was musing on the classic 1942 film Casablanca the other day. There are several plot strands but perhaps the most interesting is the "letters of transit" stolen by the Peter Lorre character and hidden by Bogarts character Rick, who later passes them on. These stolen documents permit the bearer free travel to neutral Portugal, and then onwards to the USA.
Is Rick the most celebrated "People Trafficker" in movie history? And should the Lazlos had to claim asylum in Portugal rather than the USA?
Not many days go by that I don't muse on Casablanca, the greatest film ever made. It's one of those films that covers so many themes and whose humanity and heart is so deep that it has something to say on pretty much anything you care to think of. Certainly it has a message on refugees and migration. Not just the Bulgarian couple escaping oppression there ("the devil has the people by the throat") who Rick rescues from the awful moral compromise they are almost forced into in order to escape, but the elderly Austrian couple speaking only English ("what watch? Such much!") in preparation for their trip, who Carl reassures will "get along beautiful in America". The greatest irony of the film is that the actor who plays Major Strasser, the Nazi baddie, was himself a refugee from Nazi Germany. Indeed, the whole film was made by European emigrees, which perhaps explains why it is so sympathetic to the plight of refugees.
Absolutely, and very well put.
I find the character of Captain Renard interesting. Rapist, murderer, swindler, corrupt policeman, works for the Fascists willingly, only changes sides after the Gestapo take the piss out of his self importance.
Morning all! Glad to see the status quo is preserved - virtue-signalling to ghouls against the enemy is worth more than trying to actually work multilaterally on a solution.
At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
Sadly, (1) is a moral hazard that will simply make the issue worse.
French Interior Ministry: ‘We consider Boris Johnson’s public letter unacceptable and in opposition with discussions between counterparts. As a consequence, Priti Patel is not invited anymore to the meeting on Sunday.’
So the French are still trying to play politics, rather than conduct talks with the intention of stopping people drowning in the Channel.
To be frank, it looks as though our PM is the one playing politics, setting out a suggestion which he knew in advance would be unacceptable.
Most, if not all, of those presently waiting in N. France would be an asset to this country, although, of course we have, in concert with the EU, to do 'something' about the continued drift of people to Northern and Western Europe.
Johnson needs another row with France to take minds off all his other troubles. The letter he wrote to Macron yesterday was designed to achieve that - and it has succeeded. His only interest is in keeping his voting coalition together. This is the way to do it.
Yep. Mass loss of life in the Channel and he prioritizes bad faith, nakedly self-serving "Boris tells Macron to sort it" media coverage and a high profile bust up with France over any serious attempt to work with them on a practical response. I try and squash my expectations of PM Boris Johnson sufficiently to avoid being disappointed by him but it's like chasing my own tail.
Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
The tories have a massive majority, are unfettered by any written constitution and have the almost limitless powers of a nation state at their disposal. No excuses.
There aren’t even, really, significant “conflicting views”.
Well the range of views go from
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
Theoretically, there are a “range of views”.
In practical terms, 99% desire zero channel crossings.
Even those who are open to more asylum seekers don’t think dangerous channel crossings are the way to do it.
So, over to you Boris/Priti.
I'm not so sure.
1) The Royal Navy is short of sailors. 2) The migrants are demonstrating considerable seamanship. 3) Pick them up at the UK 3 mile limit, and conscript them into the Royal Navy. 4) Send them on a nice long deployment, immediately.
Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.
Even if it were true about applying in the first safe country (it’s not):
Those applying for asylum in the UK should apply in the first safe country they reach. Those coming in boats across the channel should not be granted asylum under any circumstances whatsoever
And why is that? There is this myth presented by the Tories to the gullible that asylum has to be requested in the first safe country.
The difference between "can" and "should" - they "can" apply anywhere, but "should" they apply for asylum when they are already in a safe country?
“A woman accused of indecent exposure, masturbating in public and using a sex toy in a public place, will stand trial early next year.
Chloe Thompson, of Borough Road, Middlesbrough, appeared at Teesside Magistrates' Court on Wednesday after denying the offences.
She is charged with committing a public nuisance by indecently exposing her penis to other members of the public, whilst masturbating from a property window.”
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?
It seems like a normal series of administrative fuck-ups, namely: - Ship full of ammonium nitrate has mechanical or financial problems, docks in Beirut - Owner goes bankrupt, government takes ownership of ship over unpaid fines - Ship in danger of sinking, government unloads the ammonium nitrate and sticks it in a warehouse not really designed for it - Customs tries to get legal permission to sell the stuff, judge never gets around to it because developing-nation legal systems so it just sits there for years - Somebody maybe decided to store some fireworks in the building too for good measure - Doors need some welding work done - Boom
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
Sadly, (1) is a moral hazard that will simply make the issue worse.
It is obvious we are left with variants of (2).
Indeed. If people are crossing into the UK they should be doing so via legal routes on planes, not via sinkable dinghies.
And other EU countries also had the right to send asylum seekers to the UK and we also had free movement from the EU not the points based system we have now
Quite right! And the current arrangement is working so well at the moment, isn't it?
Macron is leaking votes to Le Pen compared to 2017, Boris needs to shore up his core vote from 2019, both are playing to their base.
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
Um, what should the French be doing - they don't want these refugees and the refugees don't want to be in France?
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
They have to get to France first before they come to the UK, the main problem is the boats coming from Africa to southern Europe.
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
Yeah, the good citizens of Lampedusa and Lesbos are going to love that.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
Has the background to that explosion ever been satisfactorily explained?
It seems like a normal series of administrative fuck-ups, namely: - Ship full of ammonium nitrate has mechanical or financial problems, docks in Beirut - Owner goes bankrupt, government takes ownership of ship over unpaid fines - Ship in danger of sinking, government unloads the ammonium nitrate and sticks it in a warehouse not really designed for it - Customs tries to get legal permission to sell the stuff, judge never gets around to it because developing-nation legal systems so it just sits there for years - Somebody maybe decided to store some fireworks in the building too for good measure - Doors need some welding work done - Boom
Hmm. Thanks. Not sure I'd call Lebanon a developing nation. Given what the Israelis and the Syrians have done to it over the past thirty or so years, I'd calling it a regressing one.
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
nice to see UK / French political relationships at their usual levels.
I suspect the meeting may have gone ahead if the PM hadn't published his letter to Macron, but kept it private. So why did he publish it? For domestic consumption, obviously, to tickle the fancy of the anti-French lot. Megaphone diplomacy is unbecoming on matters as sensitive as this. Frost is similar on the EU negotiations. I'm all in favour of transparency, but sometimes matters are better dealt with though traditional diplomatic channels.
"Why did he publish it?" A question that will be answered by the incoming opinion poll (re) crossover.
I really hope that's not the case - that the polls swing strongly Con again - or if it is that migrants are not the reason. I can see it though. As I've said before, I don't think this mess in the Channel is good for Labour even if the government get the blame for it right now. Fact is, 'strong borders' and 'no soft touch for migrants and refugees' is fundamentally Tory and populist right territory. I can't see many people with that Daily Express take on this issue switching to Labour at the election because of it, regardless of how Starmer plays things.
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
At the end of the day there's only two viable solutions to stop people crossing by boats.
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
What's wrong with what we are doing today. Strenuously (!) discouraging migrants, having laws and processes in place to filter out genuine asylum seekers, while at the same time humanely dealing with those that ignore the warnings and come anyway.
Now of course the Tories, the party of Laura Norder, don't seem very good at the laws and processes to filter out and act upon non-genuine asylum seekers but in principle the system is just about doing what it was once designed to do. A few thousand people trying to cross the channel which they always will do regardless of illusory deals with Albania.
I don't see that the current situation is particularly broken aside from headlines in the Daily Express if you are Boris Johnson.
Chill guys, this new variant shit is handled. Grant "Michael Greene" Shapps in on Sky News. Two flegs (Butcher's Apron and Civil Aviation Standard), empty red box and his fucking wig are all conspicuously on display.
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
This is the far right tory lie
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
This is the far right tory lie
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
This is the far right tory lie
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
This is the far right tory lie
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?
Is it more infective or more dangerous ?
I doubt it will be both.
More infective normally means less dangerous, as both are in its 'evolutionary interests'
"We're getting better at understanding this virus." (Professor James Naismith, Director of the Rosalind Franklin Institute)
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
It is not whether they test Covid positive we should be worried about, so much as if even the vaccinated get hospitalised and die from it
This is the far right tory lie
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
What are you on about? HYUFD is just making a perfectly sensible point: we know this wretchedly infective Nu strain will sweep the world, the big question is: can it hurt or kill the vaxxed in large numbers?
12 GW being generated by wind of 32 GW total demand. It's not good enough, it ought to be at least double that when there's a moderate storm about.
In the longer run what we would actually need is something like 45GW (to pick a number at random) and the capacity to store the surplus efficiently for use when it is not windy. Whilst 24 GW would clearly be an improvement it too is not sufficient. Still, at least our gas consumption is temporarily reduced.
Given the increase in electricity consumption implied by electrifying land transport and domestic heating and industry I would think we need to aim for closer to ten times our current wind capacity.
And add tidal, mini-nukes, interconnectors to Moroccan solar...
There's 24GW of installed wind in the UK. Unless you are planning absolutely massive storage facilities, I don't see how the UK could possibly just that much - even including the electrification of domestic heating and road transport.
Today I am starting to publish a detailed, annotated record of the lies, falsehoods and misleading statements made by Boris Johnson and colleagues dating back to his appointment as prime minister in July 2019. They are available here:
Before being too sanctimonious about the current liar in No 10, remember that Oborne wrote "The Rise of Political Lying", which made much of a certain T. Blair, a previous No 10 incumbent...
So the fact that Oborne sees Boris as even worse than Blair counts for something.
Oborne is a moaning Myrtle.
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
Comments
Why would she get a promotion?
If they promise to be harder on immigrants without her history of failure she is in trouble
Basically by walking away from the Dublin Convention Boris created this mess. I suspect Nigel Farage will make great play of the fact now it's started to be pointed out because afterall everyone's vision of Brexit was their own personal unicorn version of Brexit (each with 6 different impossible conditions)
Once the French election is over next year I expect some agreement will be reached, at the moment both leaders are playing to the gallery to try and look as tough as possible with the other over border control
@garius
We've hit the point where Johnson knows his survival depends on starting an actual war with France.
As any EU4 player knows, this is going to end with them taking Kent and 10% of our annual income as war reps.
9:03 AM · Nov 26, 2021·Talon Android
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@garius
Which is going to be super fucking annoying, as I don't see why the Brexity people of Chatham should get to be EU citizens again while I don't.
There is zero incentive for the French to do anything about it which you can see from the fact the only reason the French patrol the border is because we are paying them to do so.
France taking exception to Boris's letter was predictable but it is only going to polarise opinion further
It is fiercely difficult issue to resolve and so many conflicting views
I understand reports this morning that smugglers are threatening the migrants with being shot if they do not get in the boats, and if true it makes this terrible problem far worse
I expect it may play well for Boris and certainly last nights local were surprisingly quite good for the conservatives and the trend to lib dems in remain seats continued, but labour had a poor night and certainly as the main opposition they should be doing better
I don't dispute both are as bad as each other. Xenophobia and petty nationalism prevail. Whatever happened to the post-war dream?
Hence Brothers of Italy or Salvini's Lega Nord are ahead in some Italian polls now and hence Le Pen is now on 45% of the vote in France, unless Europe gets control of its southern border the populist right will continue to grow.
That may mean islands in the Mediterranean specifically to process asylum claims and all refugee camps in Europe closed other than those on said islands
I remember the Mid 90s, Labour would have won this seat by 40%.:
At the end of the day, the government needs to properly fund the necessary patrol and processing operations.
By all means figure out a better partnership with France, but that is a side issue. The more Boris or Priti talk about France, the less they are interested in addressing the issue.
There are billions of people in the world who undoubtedly live in unsavoury regimes with human rights problems, who fear for their personal safety; and thus have a legitimate reason to try and migrate to the west, the UK included.
Should they all have a theoretical right to migrate to the UK?
If the answer is yes, then you have to deal with a rapid population increase and all the social, environmental and political consequences that entails.
If the answer is no, then you have to stop people coming in at all;deport them back from where they came, or put them in a prison camp; as they do in certain other countries.
The problem is absolutely horrible. But it won't go away.
If we in the West didn't screw over North African and Middle Eastern countries in our role as the world's policeman (Blair and Cameron, I am looking at you) maybe this situation wouldn't be as desperate as it is.
Take Lebanon, a failing state, that fails even further after an accidental explosion that took out the Port if Beirut. What are we doing to help other than pointing and laughing?
The starting point must be that every regime from which people are fleeing is a fellow member of the UN, but the UN imposes a disparity of obligations, which places an enormous burden on some regimes, a politically sticky one on others (including UK and France) while Assad and North Korea and the Taliban do exactly as they like while retaining the benefits but not the burdens of UN membership.
It was for the Daily Mail.
Boris has no intention whatsoever of addressing this issue.
A) We should let in absolutely everyone who wants to come here
Z) We should let in no-one
between those 2 points there is a range of options.
Any option apart from A) involves "What about the people who want to come here, but we don't want here?"
There is, of course the position of "Of course I believe in restrictions on immigration. In abstract. Just that when presented with any particular case, I would let them in." - which is really (A)
I can assure everyone that you couldn't see the Dutch coast from Harwich, even if the Dutch coast had cliffs.
The reason is that it costs money.
Kuenssberg is too important and reliable a reporter for these ["it's just not working"] remarks to have been either casual asides or unrepresentative whinging. Their message is a devastating one, that Johnson and his team are not up to the job. They imply that changes are required at the centre if the Conservatives are to emerge, from a winter dominated by the cost of living, Covid and the Channel migration crisis, in a position to win the next general election.
Britain’s embrace of Johnsonism in 2016 and 2019 is now confronted by Johnsonism’s in-built unworkability in practice. Faced with an irreconcilable, the Tory party will eventually have to make a choice. Either it will bet the farm on Johnsonism, or it will try to rein it in.
While Germany is about to make a seamless transition to Olaf Scholz’s chancellorship, Britain faces a governmental emergency. No 10’s lack of a team, a structure and a shared ethos adds up to a humiliating verdict on this country’s politics. Solving the problem posed by the chaotic Johnson court is the priority of the day. The question is whether, in the light of the way that Johnson has governed since 2019, it is even remotely possible to solve.
Ultimately the UK has to be part of these discussions and let's hope cooler heads prevail
1: Provide safe transport for everyone who wants it, no restrictions. Hundreds of thousands would take up the offer, but if you're OK with that then that's safe and humane.
2: Provide off shore processing. Anyone who crosses by boat is immediately, without access to any courts, deported straight to a third party country for processing. If their claim is denied, then they remain in the nation they're deported to. Most notable Rwanda already offer this service for other countries and for the United Nations Human Rights Council themselves.
Neither option is superficially attractive, but both would work. You simply have to pick your poison. Talking about or to France won't do anything at all, its up to the UK to resolve this by themselves.
In practical terms, 99% desire zero channel crossings.
Even those who are open to more asylum seekers don’t think dangerous channel crossings are the way to do it.
So, over to you Boris/Priti.
The fact is as long as you can earn far more in western Europe than African migrants will still come even if they are peaceful democracies. What we need is somewhere to process the claims so we only allow in those in genuine fear of persecution and those whose skills we genuinely need
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/32c29612-4e0d-11ec-9bc6-5abf98655bc4?shareToken=3c583a532e665a02b1fa9a73ca039882
https://institute.global/policy/red-walls-red-bridges-rebuilding-labours-voter-coalition?utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=red-walls-26nov
It is obvious we are left with variants of (2).
Therein lies our best hope viz a viz this most significant and worst variant yet. Despite three flights arriving this morning, the UK Gov't have acted swiftly.
But I do note that three people in Israel found covid positive with the variant were all vaccinated.
1) The Royal Navy is short of sailors.
2) The migrants are demonstrating considerable seamanship.
3) Pick them up at the UK 3 mile limit, and conscript them into the Royal Navy.
4) Send them on a nice long deployment, immediately.
should-a, could-a, would-a
as they say on Judge Judy.
Smuggler shot migrant in the kneecaps when he refused to board boat
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/bit-like-drowning-scene-film-titanic/
Bedford (Wandsworth) by-election result:
LAB: 40.2% (-9.8)
CON: 40.2% (+5.7)
GRN: 13.6% (+4.3)
LDEM: 6.0% (-0.2)
Labour HOLD.
One vote in it!
Chgs. w/ 2018
'We do not communicate by tweets'
The irony in that post is so amusing
“A woman accused of indecent exposure, masturbating in public and using a sex toy in a public place, will stand trial early next year.
Chloe Thompson, of Borough Road, Middlesbrough, appeared at Teesside Magistrates' Court on Wednesday after denying the offences.
She is charged with committing a public nuisance by indecently exposing her penis to other members of the public, whilst masturbating from a property window.”
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-woman-accused-using-sex-22260053
Ten years earlier…
“ A FORMER serviceman who touched a pre-teenage schoolgirl was jailed for a year, prompting loud gasps in court.
Andrew Douglas McNab, 31, took advantage of the underage girl when he sexually assaulted her.
He said he molested her in a “moment of madness” while weak and mentally scarred from his Army service, Teesside Crown Court heard.”
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/sex-assault-shame-teesside-ex-soldier-3692966
Your hero Boris has been caught playing to the gallery again.
Not obvious perhaps if you are the gallery.
- Ship full of ammonium nitrate has mechanical or financial problems, docks in Beirut
- Owner goes bankrupt, government takes ownership of ship over unpaid fines
- Ship in danger of sinking, government unloads the ammonium nitrate and sticks it in a warehouse not really designed for it
- Customs tries to get legal permission to sell the stuff, judge never gets around to it because developing-nation legal systems so it just sits there for years
- Somebody maybe decided to store some fireworks in the building too for good measure
- Doors need some welding work done
- Boom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion
Who was the last leader he wasn't moaning about?
He's one of those people who isn't happy unless he's complaining.
I would be happy to see Rishi in place today
Not forgetting that 12 years into opposition Labour are losing votes in Local Council By-Elections
Now of course the Tories, the party of Laura Norder, don't seem very good at the laws and processes to filter out and act upon non-genuine asylum seekers but in principle the system is just about doing what it was once designed to do. A few thousand people trying to cross the channel which they always will do regardless of illusory deals with Albania.
I don't see that the current situation is particularly broken aside from headlines in the Daily Express if you are Boris Johnson.
https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1464168201022066714?s=21
Philip Thompson pretty starkly lays out our options above. Them’s the choices. Unless we repeal the HRA and start towing them back to France
For a start we already know that vaccinated people are now getting admitted to hospital. But as significantly, they act as viral vectors, thus spreading the virus to others who are vulnerable. So one apparently non-hospitalised "I'm alright Jack" covid positive tory is potentially killing loads of other people. Which is about par for the course for self-centred nasty capitalists.
But the other even more significant issue is that this variant looks like it's a lot more deadly. Vaccine protection is lower.
For that latter reason it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that we act hard and fast.
And not selfishly like you.
How bad is this Nu variant?
Javid looks absolutely terrified here. Rabbit-in-headlights eyes. Like he has just been briefed that bubonic plague is next. Perhaps it is
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1463983419495526403?s=21
We may need to go further and suspend all air travel temporarily. Acting decisively has always been the right choice with this virus.
Big G weighs SEVEN Rishis.
I doubt it will be both.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6559347/PETER-OBORNE-Theresa-deserves-better-narcissists.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021847/PETER-OBORNE-Why-fit-Gordon-Browns-shoes.html