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When the rules are the main event: Smarkets covid restrictions market – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 23 in General
imageWhen the rules are the main event: Smarkets covid restrictions market – politicalbetting.com

A few weeks ago I wrote about the Smarkets market on whether the government would reimpose covid restrictions before the new year. The market, put up shortly prior to the end of restrictions in July, is called ‘Any Covid restrictions to be re-introduced in England during 2021‘. The ‘subheading’ then reads ‘Will the government re-introduce any legally enforceable restrictions on social contact in England before the end of 2021?‘

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783
    If working in a care home is social contact, what is an example of non-social contact?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981
    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all. Congratulations to @isam on the new arrival!

    One more sign of the sense of normality returning today - off to watch England v WIndies cricket later, in what will be a pretty packed and sold out stadium. Also my wife’s first live cricket match, so I will probably have some explaining to do!

    Let's hope she takes along a good book
    That’s why I’m introducing her to cricket with a 20-20 game, and not a Test match.

    Otherwise, she might go away with the impression that going to see the cricket means sitting down in the ground with a newspaper and an iPad, drinking beer and chatting to friends all day…
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    While rule clarification from bookies is always welcome, this imo definitely stays into moving the goalposts territory.

    And I agree punters should be allowed to void bets in such circumstances. But for an exchange this is more complicated as the counterparty probably wouldn't want to void their side. So Smarkets need a mechanism to take on the liability.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,376
    Clearly we need further, better and more expensive lawyers for this complicated bit of interpretation. Retirement job for Lady Hale?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981
    Good piece @Quincel, and good on OGH for publishing it.

    Someone here noted the other day, that the government had already announced legislation for care home worker vaccinations before this market was put up. If that is indeed the case, there’s an argument that Smarkets have messed this one up and are better to void the market completely.
  • Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!
    https://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/1451597572846460928
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Its a fair point on Smarkets clarification that visitors (as opposed to workers) must be vaccinated, though I wasn't aware of that part. Workers are clearly non-social.

    However my main issue with this is that the rules were passed by Parliament in June and the market opened in July. But then this 'clarification' appeared in October. That is just not acceptable in my eyes, the rules existed before this market even opened.

    The talk of the rules starting from November is a bit of a misnomer technically too, the rules started in July (following being passed by Parliament in June) but with a grace period that is about to end. Nothing new is being legally introduced in November - the rules were already the law before this market started.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    edited October 23
    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @Quincel, and good on OGH for publishing it.

    Agreed.
    Also, just got around to reading @Fishing ’s article from yesterday, and wanted to note my appreciation for that, too.

    As far as the regulation market is concerned, I think many concluded at the time of the first article that it was a recipe for confusion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    IshmaelZ said:

    If working in a care home is social contact, what is an example of non-social contact?

    Boxing ?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    edited October 23
    Sandpit said:

    Good piece @Quincel, and good on OGH for publishing it.

    Someone here noted the other day, that the government had already announced legislation for care home worker vaccinations before this market was put up. If that is indeed the case, there’s an argument that Smarkets have messed this one up and are better to void the market completely.

    It was me who posted this. Great header Quincel.

    Quincel states that the market was put up shortly prior to the end of restrictions in July. The more important thing is that I thought it was a little later than when the vaccine mandate legislation for care workers was passed, but I may be wrong.

    In any case, the clarification in October created a new market in my mind. Prior punters were clearly taken by surprise. 1.46 was instantly cut to 1.09 on the announcement.

    I agree that bets placed prior to the clarification should be voided.

    If it was as obvious as Smarkets response to Quincel state - then why did they need to post the clarification in the first place?

    Quincel says that he legislation covers visitors as well. I didn't realise this. So unvaccinated sons and daughters will be barred from seeing their parents (or at least restricted to outside only visits). My word.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!
    https://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/1451597572846460928

    Greta will grow up - the ill mannered dyspeptic never will.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,134
    Good piece. I like markets like this, and I like that smarkets are broadening the betting offering.
    In this instance, I do agree with @Quincel (and I have an indirect bet on this market with DavidL), that I don't think vaccines to enter care homes ought to count... but having read their statement, I can sort of see why they have applied letter of the rules in the way.

    I'm hoping to win my bet with DavidL cleanly though through a nice broad-based reintroduction of mask mandates.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!
    https://twitter.com/EcoSenseNow/status/1451597572846460928

    "Virtue-signalling little turds" ! !
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    FPT:

    @Isam

    Ah - now I see why you weren't around yesterday.

    Just weighing up your "excuse".

    (Congrats)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,438

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,605

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    I seem to remember that some thoughtful person created a helpline for middle-aged men who are triggered by a teenage girl.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    Australian invective can be quite funny, but you need to think of it as primarily comedy rather than serious social commentary.

    The reasons that the likes of Greta gain unpopularity, is the same reasons as for example Marcus Rashford. They’re clearly front people for larger groups pushing an agenda, and they speak from positions of privilege while trying to enforce changed behaviours or increased costs of living on the rest of us.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,791
    rkrkrk said:

    Good piece. I like markets like this, and I like that smarkets are broadening the betting offering.
    In this instance, I do agree with @Quincel (and I have an indirect bet on this market with DavidL), that I don't think vaccines to enter care homes ought to count... but having read their statement, I can sort of see why they have applied letter of the rules in the way.

    I'm hoping to win my bet with DavidL cleanly though through a nice broad-based reintroduction of mask mandates.

    Yes, I should state that generally I think the team at Smarkets are doing a really good job. But I think they've messed up here, particularly given these care home rules predating the market (which I actually hadn't realised, and imagine they hadn't either).

    Re: Their statement, I must admit being a bit disappointed. It defends the rule clarification by saying 'Even if we were to ignore the market clarification [the bets would still lose]', in other words it boils down to 'The rule clarification didn't matter this time' - which doesn't seem to me to really defend their clarification at all!
  • Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,346
    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,609
    Peston strikes again...


    Joshua Blake
    @JoshBiostats
    We're pretty certain the daily case numbers are at best half of all infections but this is nothing to do with reinfections. The lack of understanding among some very influential political journalists is pretty concerning.

    https://twitter.com/JoshBiostats/status/1451812324076052484
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    edited October 23
    On those container port problems in the US…
    …Twitter comes to the rescue.

    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451673736877428742
    Update: The city of LB just announced it has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations.

    Thank you everybody who called the governor and the mayor to request. They got the message, you can stop now...


    Full thread:
    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834

    And no mention of driver shortages.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Nick's paternal but ultimately forgiving disapproval act is highly distinctive, like an archdeacon who has found a choir boy masturbating in the organ loft
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Nick's paternal but ultimately forgiving disapproval act is highly distinctive, like an archdeacon who has found a choir boy masturbating in the organ loft
    I hope I'm not the choir boy here!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    It’s a shame COVID passports in any setting weren’t excluded from this market.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,475
    Cyclefree said:

    Morning.

    Congratulations to Mr and Mrs iSam on the arrival of their second son. Lovely news!

    Remember when we were assured that as a sovereign nation we would be maintaining and enhancing our environmental standards?

    Well, yesterday, 265 Tory MPs voted to allow water companies to dump raw untreated sewage into our rivers.

    A few voted against permitting this disgusting practice.

    You can see the list here - https://evolvepolitics.com/heres-a-list-of-every-mp-who-just-voted-to-allow-water-companies-to-continue-dumping-raw-sewage-in-our-rivers/.

    Being green does not just mean not burning carbon. It also means having a care for the environment around us and the flora and fauna which depend on it not being turned into a cesspit.

    Badly done.

    Yes congratulations to Isam and his good lady on their happy news. Our best wishes you your family.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58996017

    COVID dog buyers pretend dogs are strays to offload them on to rescue homes.

    Begs the question why the charities were not running humungous Are you sure you really want a dog? campaign throughout the COVID boom.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,475

    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.

    Apart from a bung to Teesside doesn’t look like anything else for the North East. Nothing for our great city of Newcastle or other places like Sunderland.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873
    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,208
    edited October 23
    Cyclefree said:

    Morning.

    Congratulations to Mr and Mrs iSam on the arrival of their second son. Lovely news!

    Remember when we were assured that as a sovereign nation we would be maintaining and enhancing our environmental standards?

    Well, yesterday, 265 Tory MPs voted to allow water companies to dump raw untreated sewage into our rivers.

    A few voted against permitting this disgusting practice.

    You can see the list here - https://evolvepolitics.com/heres-a-list-of-every-mp-who-just-voted-to-allow-water-companies-to-continue-dumping-raw-sewage-in-our-rivers/.

    Being green does not just mean not burning carbon. It also means having a care for the environment around us and the flora and fauna which depend on it not being turned into a cesspit.

    Badly done.

    The issue is remediation works. Which can't be done overnight.

    In London, many of those supporting this fought a long and bitter campaign to block the Thames Tideway project - which is to expand sewer capacity to deal with this issue.

    They did achieve a massive delay in the project, so there's that.

    Much as the idiots complaining about the Hammersmith bridge often fight intensely against all of the options, temporary and permanent.

    Or the people who fight bitterly to prevent new reservoirs being built, then complain about hosepipe bans.

    Personally I would incorporate them into the.... concrete.... solutions to the various national infrastructure problems. But that's me being evil again....

    EDIT: What I would have done is to present a bill ordering immediate start of remediation works. With no planning hold ups - incorporate full planning permission override into the bill. Then enjoy the screaming.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,346
    Taz said:

    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.

    Apart from a bung to Teesside doesn’t look like anything else for the North East. Nothing for our great city of Newcastle or other places like Sunderland.
    I'm hoping that these are just some of the schemes being funded. Although a project to make it easier to get away from Middlesbrough is no bad thing.

    Meanwhile I have found a partial answer to my question:

    "Plans to cap the cost of a day's bus travel in West Yorkshire and create a greener bus fleet have been approved by the county's combined authority.
    If given the final go-ahead, the Bus Service Improvement Plan would see the daily cost of travelling on buses run by different firms limited to £5.50.
    West Yorkshire Combined Authority is bidding for a share of a national £3bn bus strategy fund."

    So WYCA have to hold out the begging bowl and hope it gets funded.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783

    IshmaelZ said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Nick's paternal but ultimately forgiving disapproval act is highly distinctive, like an archdeacon who has found a choir boy masturbating in the organ loft
    I hope I'm not the choir boy here!
    I don't know how I am going to break this to your poor parents, Livermore.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988
    Taz said:

    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.

    Apart from a bung to Teesside doesn’t look like anything else for the North East. Nothing for our great city of Newcastle or other places like Sunderland.
    Which way did Newcastle & Sunderland vote at the GE? Which way did Teeside vote?

    This is what we have come to.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981

    Peston strikes again...


    Joshua Blake
    @JoshBiostats
    We're pretty certain the daily case numbers are at best half of all infections but this is nothing to do with reinfections. The lack of understanding among some very influential political journalists is pretty concerning.

    https://twitter.com/JoshBiostats/status/1451812324076052484

    Ha, we’ve had 20 months of some very influential political journalists showing a lack of understanding. It’s been concerning for at least 19 months!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,208
    Nigelb said:

    On those container port problems in the US…
    …Twitter comes to the rescue.

    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451673736877428742
    Update: The city of LB just announced it has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations.

    Thank you everybody who called the governor and the mayor to request. They got the message, you can stop now...


    Full thread:
    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834

    And no mention of driver shortages.

    So they can pile up containers at the port? Which can't be moved due to.... something?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,205
    IshmaelZ said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Nick's paternal but ultimately forgiving disapproval act is highly distinctive, like an archdeacon who has found a choir boy masturbating in the organ loft
    Well, where else are you supposed to masturbate? You can’t masturbate without an organ.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.

    There's also

    Improving the A61 between Wakefield and Leeds for buses, cyclists and pedestrians, and giving buses greater priority in Wakefield

    But it does seem a little for a lot of money.

    Further south Barnsley is to get a 'Dutch style' roundabout.

    To go with its current plan to be remodelled with a Peak District theme.

    I wonder if it will amount to as much as the previous idea to reinvent Barnsley as a 'Tuscan hill village'.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...
  • ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Nick's paternal but ultimately forgiving disapproval act is highly distinctive, like an archdeacon who has found a choir boy masturbating in the organ loft
    Well, where else are you supposed to masturbate? You can’t masturbate without an organ.
    Hand turbulence in the organ loft is some euphemism!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,208
    Sandpit said:

    Peston strikes again...


    Joshua Blake
    @JoshBiostats
    We're pretty certain the daily case numbers are at best half of all infections but this is nothing to do with reinfections. The lack of understanding among some very influential political journalists is pretty concerning.

    https://twitter.com/JoshBiostats/status/1451812324076052484

    Ha, we’ve had 20 months of some very influential political journalists showing a lack of understanding. It’s been concerning for at least 19 months!
    The interesting bit is how fact checking such "top journalists" is claimed to be "an attack on the press"

    In this case, the ONS (and other surveys) provide clear, unambiguous, non-partisan data. They tell us, with a delay of a few weeks, what the infection rates were at a given time, complete with error bars. Real science at work.

    The problem for Peston & Co. is that they are used to working in politics and economics - you can take an idea, wrap a story around it and sound like a sage.

    If you are wrong... well, in politics and economics it is fairly unusual to hit Absolute Truth.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,438

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    Lol. It's still clickbait!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981
    Nigelb said:

    On those container port problems in the US…
    …Twitter comes to the rescue.

    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451673736877428742
    Update: The city of LB just announced it has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations.

    Thank you everybody who called the governor and the mayor to request. They got the message, you can stop now...


    Full thread:
    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834

    And no mention of driver shortages.

    That was a very good thread. It’s not difficult to identify the blockage in the system, but as soon as you do, you need to move mountains to unblock it.

    In this case it was that the port couldn’t accept empties because there was no space, and there were planning rules that prevented hauliers from stacking them in their own yards - so they were stuck on trucks, which then. Couldn’t collect goods from the port. Suspending the local planning rules allows hauliers to offload their empties and start to clear the backlog from the port itself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,208
    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,477
    Morning all, thanks @Quincel, interesting situation and here's my take on it:

    The 're-introduction' point is a red herring. That has a reasonable general as opposed to specific interpretation. So it's ok to settle the market as Yes for a rule which is new and wasn't seen during previous Covid restrictions. Eg the Not Happening Event of vaxports for nightclubs would, if I'm wrong and it were to happen, rightly settle as Yes.

    But I would feel VERY hard done by if I'd backed No and the sole instance of 'vaxports for care home workers' settled it for Yes. The market sub-heading clearly says 'social contact' and this isn't social contact. It's professional contact - ie specifically NOT social contact. Why put the word 'social' in there unless to exclude contact which is non-social? Total balls and just plain wrong. I'd fight this one all the way to the House of Lords if necessary.

    However, if the rule brought in for care homes is wider and also covers friends & family visiting residents, then this is fair dues. That's a restriction on social contact. That should settle as Yes. No argument whatsoever there.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,148
    Presumably Smarkets is a portmanteau of smart and markets, although in this case they seem to have left their customers smarting. If Shadsy would like a simple novelty bet without the benefit of expensive legal advice, how about Will a Cambridge graduate be appointed PM before the centenary of Baldwin's resignation on 28 May 2037?

    Noes like me would have to wait 16 years for a final payout while Ayes may hope for a faster return, but there'd be plenty of trading opportunities and price volatility along the way as stars rise and fall. With the cautionary tale of Lord Archer in mind, PGCE wouldn't count.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    edited October 23

    Nigelb said:

    On those container port problems in the US…
    …Twitter comes to the rescue.

    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451673736877428742
    Update: The city of LB just announced it has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations.

    Thank you everybody who called the governor and the mayor to request. They got the message, you can stop now...


    Full thread:
    https://twitter.com/typesfast/status/1451543776992845834

    And no mention of driver shortages.

    So they can pile up containers at the port? Which can't be moved due to.... something?
    Read the full thread.
    It provides a detailed analysis.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,791

    Presumably Smarkets is a portmanteau of smart and markets, although in this case they seem to have left their customers smarting. If Shadsy would like a simple novelty bet without the benefit of expensive legal advice, how about Will a Cambridge graduate be appointed PM before the centenary of Baldwin's resignation on 28 May 2037?

    Noes like me would have to wait 16 years for a final payout while Ayes may hope for a faster return, but there'd be plenty of trading opportunities and price volatility along the way as stars rise and fall. With the cautionary tale of Lord Archer in mind, PGCE wouldn't count.

    I do feel that StarSports have done covid rules markets rather better in this case, by having separate markets for each restriction. I see what Smarkets were going for here but I think they've mis-stepped.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,740

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
  • Quite interesting etymology article here

    @AntigoneJournal
    4m
    "Through ingenious comparative work, scholars have reconstructed in great detail features of the Proto-Indo-European language, the language from which all Indo-European languages descend, despite the fact that no written evidence of it survives."
    https://antigonejournal.com/2021/07/what-did-ancient-languages-sound-like/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    edited October 23
    kinabalu said:

    Morning all, thanks @Quincel, interesting situation and here's my take on it:

    The 're-introduction' point is a red herring. That has a reasonable general as opposed to specific interpretation. So it's ok to settle the market as Yes for a rule which is new and wasn't seen during previous Covid restrictions. Eg the Not Happening Event of vaxports for nightclubs would, if I'm wrong and it were to happen, rightly settle as Yes.

    But I would feel VERY hard done by if I'd backed No and the sole instance of 'vaxports for care home workers' settled it for Yes. The market sub-heading clearly says 'social contact' and this isn't social contact. It's professional contact - ie specifically NOT social contact. Why put the word 'social' in there unless to exclude contact which is non-social? Total balls and just plain wrong. I'd fight this one all the way to the House of Lords if necessary.

    However, if the rule brought in for care homes is wider and also covers friends & family visiting residents, then this is fair dues. That's a restriction on social contact. That should settle as Yes. No argument whatsoever there.

    Even then not if the legislation was already passed prior to the market launch. If so then Smarkets is running a false market.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,814
    edited October 23
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    Didn't the cheeky chappy inherit Skyfall?

    Once it got blown up it is a development hopportunity. With a links golf course.

    On the expenses claims, perhaps he was spying on Mons. Chirac? Or collects points?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    1 We never see him off duty, so haven't much of a clue how he lives on his own money. He bought the Bentley as a write off and had it restored

    2 He is the only child of deceased parents who could afford Eton (and fettes after he was expelled).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493

    Taz said:

    Rishi opens his wallet:

    'West Yorkshire (£830m): Extending the West Bradford-Cycle Superhighway and installing electric vehicle charging stations in Kirklees neighbourhoods'

    That's a lot of money for a cycle path and some plug sockets. And for bus and train users? We don't have tram users since we don't have any trams.

    Apart from a bung to Teesside doesn’t look like anything else for the North East. Nothing for our great city of Newcastle or other places like Sunderland.
    I'm hoping that these are just some of the schemes being funded. Although a project to make it easier to get away from Middlesbrough is no bad thing.

    Meanwhile I have found a partial answer to my question:

    "Plans to cap the cost of a day's bus travel in West Yorkshire and create a greener bus fleet have been approved by the county's combined authority.
    If given the final go-ahead, the Bus Service Improvement Plan would see the daily cost of travelling on buses run by different firms limited to £5.50.
    West Yorkshire Combined Authority is bidding for a share of a national £3bn bus strategy fund."

    So WYCA have to hold out the begging bowl and hope it gets funded.
    Everyone is doing that with Bus Service Improvement Plans (BSIPs). Every authority has submitted a BSIP, following government guidance on BSIPs, and so everyone's approach is bidding for a share of a national £3bn bus strategy. In all cases, I'd expect it to go towards making buses cheaper, more frequent, some bus priority, something on quality of fleet, something on passenger information... because that's what the guidance says. Everyone will get something, no one will get everything they bid for. I'd expect WYCA would get in the high tens of millions for this.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    The PB blimps evidently found the bait delicious.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,148
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    Which would you prefer - a £50k salary with a £10m expense account, or the other way round?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    Embarrassing because he points out some inconvenient truths ?

    Without watching it again didn't he make points about aircon usage and travel by cars.

    A more UK or US equivalent could also mention the amount of air travel the modern lifestyle includes.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,568
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    That’s when he’s working. Off duty he’s down the Dog and Duck for a couple of pints, then home to a two bed semi via the chippy...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    Isn’t living beyond your means quintessentially British, though ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981
    edited October 23

    Sandpit said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    Australian invective can be quite funny, but you need to think of it as primarily comedy rather than serious social commentary.

    The reasons that the likes of Greta gain unpopularity, is the same reasons as for example Marcus Rashford. They’re clearly front people for larger groups pushing an agenda, and they speak from positions of privilege while trying to enforce changed behaviours or increased costs of living on the rest of us.
    That's an interesting point. I've not heard that Greta is especially privileged, apart from the advantage of living in a rich country, but I see what you mean in general. But if you're rich, you can't win, can you? If you spend your money on a mansion and a yacht, people are jealous. If you give it away like Bill Gates, you're attacked for virtue-signalling. If you campaign to help poorer people you're seen as a front man. I do think that some of the resentment is that some people don't actually want to change anything, and are annoyed by someone urging change on them - or the Government.
    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    Which would you prefer - a £50k salary with a £10m expense account, or the other way round?
    Well, if you put it like that…
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    That's a strong hypothetical argument against a point that isn't made in the video you refuse to watch.

    Don't worry; your virtue is shining brightly through it.
    It's quite funny in a Les Patterson sort of way but spoilt by his inclusion of 'supporting immigration' which rather gives the game away. Where exactly are the immigrants supposed to disappear to?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981
    There’s a massive boom coming as we exit the pandemic, and the constraints on it are going to be hi-tech manufacturing (eg. computer chips) and logistics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,061

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    Embarrassing because he points out some inconvenient truths ?

    Without watching it again didn't he make points about aircon usage and travel by cars.

    A more UK or US equivalent could also mention the amount of air travel the modern lifestyle includes.
    If he feels so strongly about a consumerist lifestyle then surely he ought to be agreeing with their sentiments while fulminating about their behaviour ?
    No, it's just ignorant dyspepsia.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,791
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    A timely academic paper.

    No time to die: An in-depth analysis of James Bond's exposure to infectious agents
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893921002167
    … Global travelers, whether tourists or secret agents, are exposed to a smörgåsbord of infectious agents. We hypothesized that agents pre-occupied with espionage and counterterrorism may, at their peril, fail to correctly prioritize travel medicine. To examine our hypothesis, we examined adherence to international travel advice during the 86 international journeys that James Bond was observed to undertake in feature films spanning 1962–2021. Scrutinizing these missions involved ∼3113 min of evening hours per author that could easily have been spent on more pressing societal issues. We uncovered above-average sexual activity, often without sufficient time for an exchange of sexual history, with a remarkably high mortality among Bond's sexual partners (27.1; 95% confidence interval 16.4–40.3). Given how inopportune a bout of diarrhea would be in the midst of world-saving action, it is striking that Bond is seen washing his hands on only two occasions, despite numerous exposures to foodborne pathogens...

    To be fair, Bond does go for high end hotels, with top notch bathroom facilities - and seems to like showers and changing clothes quite a bit.
    I always wondered how he managed to live the way he does on a Civil Service salary. And the expenses claims...
    Good point. The salary for an actual agent tops out around £50k - they can barely afford a 1-bed in London these days, yet Bond always seems to find himself in the most expensive hotel in town, drinking cocktails in the bar before heading off to the casino in a sports car.
    Isn’t living beyond your means quintessentially British, though ?
    Maybe this is why he changes his identity so often? Avoiding debts.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    Sandpit said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    Australian invective can be quite funny, but you need to think of it as primarily comedy rather than serious social commentary.

    The reasons that the likes of Greta gain unpopularity, is the same reasons as for example Marcus Rashford. They’re clearly front people for larger groups pushing an agenda, and they speak from positions of privilege while trying to enforce changed behaviours or increased costs of living on the rest of us.
    That's an interesting point. I've not heard that Greta is especially privileged, apart from the advantage of living in a rich country, but I see what you mean in general. But if you're rich, you can't win, can you? If you spend your money on a mansion and a yacht, people are jealous. If you give it away like Bill Gates, you're attacked for virtue-signalling. If you campaign to help poorer people you're seen as a front man. I do think that some of the resentment is that some people don't actually want to change anything, and are annoyed by someone urging change on them - or the Government.
    Grumpy old man syndrome definitely applies here. People like a moan, and everyone, literally everyone, will have something that pisses someone else off, mostly irrationally. Easier than attacking the arguments.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 3,835
    edited October 23
    I noticed @AlistairM 's prediction on the previous thread, and the factor he was least confident about (schoolkids).

    As it happens, I'd been looking at this. Taking the ONS prevalence counts amongst Yr7-15, assuming infection lasts for an average of 11.5 days (an assumption taken from comparing their prevalence estimates with their incidence estimates; it makes the numbers fit best and it matches reported data), counting from late August to ensure minimal shift in their own processes and maximum comparability, and using ratio of hospitalisations prior to that point (ie x hospitalisations came from y infections between August and December; assume the ratio was constant before and the proportion of infections was constant; cross-checking with the ratio of Age 6-17 hospitalisations to infections available after October)...

    Further assuming that prior infection has an effective efficacy of 80% (from the ONS reinfection surveys), so some of the infections are in the previously infected (backed up by anecdotal evidence from people I've spoken with)

    I get infections looking like this since the start of August in that age group:



    (Central prediction and 95% ranges high and low, with dotted lines as a projection from the latest. Obviously, the rate will bend down as it approaches 100%, but this gives an indication).

    Then add vaccinations. Too slow so far, but assuming those currently infected do not receive doses and doses are randomly spread between the previously infected and the not-yet-infected, and taking doses from 2 weeks prior as being "active," you get the rise of "non-immune-naive" looking like this:




    Now, neither infection nor vaccination provide 100% immunity, but if you assume 80% or so from either, and 90%+ from either hybrid immunity or the reinfected-and-recovered, when the bar hits around 100%, you should have herd immunity in that group.

    This does, of course, assume infections proceed as before even over half-term, but I think 2 weeks looks promising for this "engine room" to finally stall for good.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Sandpit, I'm excited to discover whether the PS5 becomes actually possible to buy before the PS6 is released.

    *sighs*
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    Embarrassing because he points out some inconvenient truths ?

    Without watching it again didn't he make points about aircon usage and travel by cars.

    A more UK or US equivalent could also mention the amount of air travel the modern lifestyle includes.
    If he feels so strongly about a consumerist lifestyle then surely he ought to be agreeing with their sentiments while fulminating about their behaviour ?
    No, it's just ignorant dyspepsia.
    Oh I'm sure he lives it up and that his own upbringing wasn't something out of an Australian Hovis advert.

    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,438
    edited October 23
    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239
    Clarkson back to being a Remoaner quisling

    https://twitter.com/britishsave/status/1451814958979760133?s=21
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    Clarkson back to being a Remoaner quisling

    https://twitter.com/britishsave/status/1451814958979760133?s=21

    ** Our Peterborough diary in the Telegraph this weekend **

    Meet the Remoaners taking over the taxpayer-funded 'Festival of Brexit'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/22/meet-remoaners-taking-taxpayer-funded-festival-brexit/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    Embarrassing because he points out some inconvenient truths ?

    Without watching it again didn't he make points about aircon usage and travel by cars.

    A more UK or US equivalent could also mention the amount of air travel the modern lifestyle includes.
    If he feels so strongly about a consumerist lifestyle then surely he ought to be agreeing with their sentiments while fulminating about their behaviour ?
    No, it's just ignorant dyspepsia.
    Oh I'm sure he lives it up and that his own upbringing wasn't something out of an Australian Hovis advert.

    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.
    A lifestyle they will struggle to maintain after their rentier parents and grandparents have extorted sufficient rents and taxes from them.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    That's a fair summary Nick.

    Though in recent weeks we've had people raging at the possibility of higher pay for abattoir workers because it might lead to higher meat prices.

    People who would, I suspect, be happy for meat prices to rise for environmental or animal welfare reasons.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    What do you mean? They could all drive HGVs for £100k a year. I read it on PB.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988
    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    Not to mention the curse of social media, having your teenage life documented hour by hour for posterity. I can't think of anything worse and sadly expect to see their mental health continue to suffer.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650

    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    What do you mean? They could all drive HGVs for £100k a year. I read it on PB.
    Under Dura's tutelage?

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Watching this makes me feel pity for Greta. Who could let this happen to a little girl?

    Must say, I do quite like the Australian style points based response to the "selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds"

    Patrick Moore
    @EcoSenseNow
    Watch as Sky News Australia rips a new one for Greta. This would never happen in Canada, USA, or Europe. Three Cheers!

    Haven't followed the link as I'm immune to Blimpish clickbait. But it's interesting what hostility Greta arouses. Nearly everyone agrees she's got a point, though we can debate how far we need to go to turn the ship round before it hits the rocks. Instead of discussing that, let's have a go at a teenager...
    But he wasn't having a go at a teenager, Greta.

    He was having a go at teenagers, Australian teenagers.
    Nick’s comment still applies.
    It doesn't.

    Modern western middle class teenagers have a very indulged and pampered lifestyle and most will struggle to maintain that when they have to fund it themselves.

    Its not really their fault but rather that of their parents, who would be better advised saving money for their kids rather than spending so much on them.
    It does - and your response is any event directed at their parents.

    As far as Australia’s CO2 output is concerned, this has little or nothing to do with teenagers and their mobile phone usage - indeed there is already one state (Tasmania) with 100% renewable electricity.
    Being one of the world’s largest coal producers is rather more germane.

    It is blimpish clickbait par excellence, and frankly embarrassing to watch.
    Embarrassing because he points out some inconvenient truths ?

    Without watching it again didn't he make points about aircon usage and travel by cars.

    A more UK or US equivalent could also mention the amount of air travel the modern lifestyle includes.
    If he feels so strongly about a consumerist lifestyle then surely he ought to be agreeing with their sentiments while fulminating about their behaviour ?
    No, it's just ignorant dyspepsia.
    Oh I'm sure he lives it up and that his own upbringing wasn't something out of an Australian Hovis advert.

    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.
    A lifestyle they will struggle to maintain after their rentier parents and grandparents have extorted sufficient rents and taxes from them.
    Indeed.

    Their parents and grandparents generations are indulging them at the wrong time and will exploit them at the wrong time.

    The younger generation are having their current expectations raised and their future means reduced.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,162

    Clarkson back to being a Remoaner quisling

    https://twitter.com/britishsave/status/1451814958979760133?s=21

    He’s been a very strident Remainer since Day One, as I understand it. He supports a federal Europe I think.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    geoffw said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    What do you mean? They could all drive HGVs for £100k a year. I read it on PB.
    Under Dura's tutelage?

    Well drivers would be doubly productive at DA's pace, so why not?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,981

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    Yes, there’s an issue with many in the environmental movement being barely-disguised socialists, which I’m sure you’re happy with but many of us aren’t.

    Those on the centre-right see improving technology as the answer, rather than higher taxes and increased state control, and will rally against those who see only increases in the cost of living as proposals put forward.

    There’s also the hypocracy angle, with many of the socialist green advocates living very middle-class lifestyles, as we have seen with the road-closing protestors in recent weeks. They appear to have litttle intention to change their own behaviour, in the same way as they expect everyone else to do so. To be flippant, it won’t be long before someone writes a lengthy opinion piece in the Guardian, celebrating the fact that there’s now a much nicer crowd than there used to be on the Ryanair to Florence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    This will be Greta after COP26

  • TazTaz Posts: 2,475

    Clarkson back to being a Remoaner quisling

    https://twitter.com/britishsave/status/1451814958979760133?s=21

    He always was.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    Maybe, but don't forget they also have the huge, huge privilege of approaching adulthood in a world-beating, global Britain led by that role model of decency and integrity for the ages, Boris Johnson. I think I've got that right.
    Trying to get some funding for your home town?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,598

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    That's a fair summary Nick.

    Though in recent weeks we've had people raging at the possibility of higher pay for abattoir workers because it might lead to higher meat prices.

    People who would, I suspect, be happy for meat prices to rise for environmental or animal welfare reasons.
    Have we? I don't recall anyone objecting to higher pay for meat processing workers.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,994
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    Yes, there’s an issue with many in the environmental movement being barely-disguised socialists, which I’m sure you’re happy with but many of us aren’t.

    Those on the centre-right see improving technology as the answer, rather than higher taxes and increased state control, and will rally against those who see only increases in the cost of living as proposals put forward.

    There’s also the hypocracy angle, with many of the socialist green advocates living very middle-class lifestyles, as we have seen with the road-closing protestors in recent weeks. They appear to have litttle intention to change their own behaviour, in the same way as they expect everyone else to do so. To be flippant, it won’t be long before someone writes a lengthy opinion piece in the Guardian, celebrating the fact that there’s now a much nicer crowd than there used to be on the Ryanair to Florence.
    I'm sorry, but if you think us Guardian readers would ever use Ryanair, you're sadly misguided. We don't even know where Stansted is.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    Yes, there’s an issue with many in the environmental movement being barely-disguised socialists, which I’m sure you’re happy with but many of us aren’t.

    Those on the centre-right see improving technology as the answer, rather than higher taxes and increased state control, and will rally against those who see only increases in the cost of living as proposals put forward.

    There’s also the hypocracy angle, with many of the socialist green advocates living very middle-class lifestyles, as we have seen with the road-closing protestors in recent weeks. They appear to have litttle intention to change their own behaviour, in the same way as they expect everyone else to do so. To be flippant, it won’t be long before someone writes a lengthy opinion piece in the Guardian, celebrating the fact that there’s now a much nicer crowd than there used to be on the Ryanair to Florence.
    I'm sorry, but if you think us Guardian readers would ever use Ryanair, you're sadly misguided. We don't even know where Stansted is.
    With the exception of ski trips, quite handy to get to the mountains.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    Dura_Ace said:

    geoffw said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    What do you mean? They could all drive HGVs for £100k a year. I read it on PB.
    Under Dura's tutelage?

    My pedagogy is limited to French, Russian and being vile to tories.

    I do like the optimism, energy, lack of cynicism and slang rich manias of teenagers. They also seem way more civilised and decorous than I was at that age.
    I thought being vile to tories was innate, not something that needs to be taught.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,568

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    It’s difficult, but necessary for those wanting change to bring along the general public with them.

    As an example, we know that prettty much all of the delegates to the COP26 conference are going to turn up on private or government planes, then tell everyone how we all need to do less flying, swap our cars for electric ones and replace boilers with heat sinks at a cost of thousands - as China and Russia don’t even bother to show up, and the USA and India won’t implement an agreement to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is, that for a huge number of people in the country, the cost of transport and energy are significant. Millions of people use old cars to get to minimum-wage jobs working antisocial hours. People advocating petrol being £3 a litre and petrol cars being banned don’t appear to have any understanding of the impact of those policies on the working classes.

    Yes, agreed, except for people who combine a green agenda with a redistributive agenda, which is (even if completely thought out) a complex argument to put across.

    I have the same problem in my day job. There isn't much dispute that factory farming produces cheap meat and lots of suffering and environmental damage. If we just argue against it on the grounds of the damage, it runs into the perfectly legitimate "but what about the impact on poorer people?" argument. As a non-political charity, we can't say "so combine it with higher universal credit and a wealth tax", so we argue that the answer is to tax meat to reflect the indirect costs but ring-fence the proceeds to subsidise healthy non-meat alternatives and high-welfare meat, so that people on low incomes have healthy affordable options with few downsides. But say the words "meat tax" and people just switch off before you finish the sentence.

    That's why Henry Dimbleby's National Food strategy advocates a 30% reduction in meat consumption over 10 years (on sustainability grounds as well as welfare) but explicitly shies away from a meat tax, instead favouring vague things like higher procurement standards, which are a Good Thing but (a) probably won't achieve the 30% cut and (b) also have indirect effects, as it's school and hospital budgets you're hitting.

    It's tricky, but of course unhelpful when people like Patrick Moore just throw out random sneers.
    Yes, there’s an issue with many in the environmental movement being barely-disguised socialists, which I’m sure you’re happy with but many of us aren’t.

    Those on the centre-right see improving technology as the answer, rather than higher taxes and increased state control, and will rally against those who see only increases in the cost of living as proposals put forward.

    There’s also the hypocracy angle, with many of the socialist green advocates living very middle-class lifestyles, as we have seen with the road-closing protestors in recent weeks. They appear to have litttle intention to change their own behaviour, in the same way as they expect everyone else to do so. To be flippant, it won’t be long before someone writes a lengthy opinion piece in the Guardian, celebrating the fact that there’s now a much nicer crowd than there used to be on the Ryanair to Florence.
    I'm sorry, but if you think us Guardian readers would ever use Ryanair, you're sadly misguided. We don't even know where Stansted is.
    With the exception of ski trips, quite handy to get to the mountains.
    I had no idea you could ski in the mountains by Luton...
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,148

    Dura_Ace said:



    But so what - few of us fully match our deeds to our thoughts - and the fundamental point remains that the modern middle class teenager has a pampered, privileged lifestyle, A lifestyle, at least in the UK, they will struggle to maintain when they have to fund it themselves.

    I tutor (almost exclusively middle class) teenagers and I feel like they have significantly worse prospects than the generation that preceded them. They are going to have shitloads of student debt, a hyper inflated housing market, the curse of precarcity in the workplace, evironmental ruin and Brexit to deal with.
    Maybe, but don't forget they also have the huge, huge privilege of approaching adulthood in a world-beating, global Britain led by that role model of decency and integrity for the ages, Boris Johnson. I think I've got that right.
    Some of us grew up under the shadow of imminent nuclear destruction. Year in, year out, there's always something to worry about.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,508
    Do Britons want to see the return of COVID-19 restrictions?

    Compulsory face masks in shops/on public transport: 76%
    Govt advice to work from home where possible: 69%
    Vaccine passports for large events: 69%
    Pubs/restaurants closed: 22%
    Schools closed: 19%

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1451830429951086592?s=20
This discussion has been closed.