Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
We're free to speculate now, of course.
But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.
In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.
It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.
All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.
However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.
“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
Good quote. Who?
George W Bush.
Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.
Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.
He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008.
Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it does then given what has occurred since
He didn't avoid the collapse of the US economy - indeed the fourth quarter of 2008 was the peak "down" quarter.
Had there been no bailout of the banks at all, which remember most House Republicans voted for, then the US economy would indeed have collapsed. Bush sacrificed Lehmans to save the rest
Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters
It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO
It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back
I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them
I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
Hmm. I was there today. Great food. Service a bit iffy. Had to take out a second mortgage.
Have to admit the service was really good when we went but what happened?
Agree on the second mortgage. I think you have to avoid the wine. If you like red wine, you can’t get a bottle for less than £60
It was just “fine”. The maitre d’ was good. Some confusion between the staff. One guy was transparently hungover (it was 1pm).
None of this detracted from the astonishing food.
Just the service didn’t quite match the bill if you know what I mean.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
We're free to speculate now, of course.
But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.
In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.
It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.
All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.
However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.
“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
Good quote. Who?
George W Bush.
Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
History should not be kind, if only for how he let China off the hook post the massacres. Combine that with letting Saddam Hussein stay in power, and he’s looking not that great.
That was GHW Bush who was actually less radical than Blair on foreign policy let alone his son
Yes, I realised that. Now I have the right Bush, I think. @rcs1000 has a point.
Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters
It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO
It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back
I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them
I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
Hmm. I was there today. Great food. Service a bit iffy. Had to take out a second mortgage.
Have to admit the service was really good when we went but what happened?
Agree on the second mortgage. I think you have to avoid the wine. If you like red wine, you can’t get a bottle for less than £60
It was just “fine”. The maitre d’ was good. Some confusion between the staff. One guy was transparently hungover (it was 1pm).
None of this detracted from the astonishing food.
Just the service didn’t quite match the bill if you know what I mean.
No, I get that. I took my wife but didn’t tell the bill because she thought it was so wonderful, I didn’t want to give her a heart attack by saying how much it cost.
We're averaging what, 1 serious attack knife/sword attack per parliament? That's enough to require a response. MPs should be armed, if they lose the election they can hand over their weapon to the next guy at the count.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
We're free to speculate now, of course.
But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.
In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.
It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.
All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.
However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.
“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
Good quote. Who?
George W Bush.
Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
It was GW Bush, and his advisor, Karl Rove, who gave us the concept of truthiness – that facts do not matter, that a lie is acceptable, and politically effective, if it sounds like it ought to be true.
It was GW Bush under whom, and perhaps without his direct complicity, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld set fire to the Middle East, and also to the normal checks and balances of the American constitution.
It was GW Bush under whom the global financial crisis started in America.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
We're free to speculate now, of course.
But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.
In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.
It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.
All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.
However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.
“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
Good quote. Who?
George W Bush.
Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
It was GW Bush, and his advisor, Karl Rove, who gave us the concept of truthiness – that facts do not matter, that a lie is acceptable, and politically effective, if it sounds like it ought to be true.
It was GW Bush under whom, and perhaps without his direct complicity, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld set fire to the Middle East, and also to the normal checks and balances of the American constitution.
It was GW Bush under whom the global financial crisis started in America.
Yeah. Was also the disputed election. Intention of the voter doesn’t matter, legalistic bollocks instead started. Kerry backed down. Not feeling the GWB was ace vibe.
We're averaging what, 1 serious attack knife/sword attack per parliament? That's enough to require a response. MPs should be armed, if they lose the election they can hand over their weapon to the next guy at the count.
There might be a case for portable knife detection at MPs' surgeries, after this murder and the stabbing of Stephen Timms a decade earlier, which might at least make would-be attackers wait outside in the cold and rain.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'
Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.
It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.
However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will
"almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant" ...... and your evidence for this is what, exactly?
As for me shutting down debate on immigration or indeed Islam, you have a brass neck and a very short memory. I am one of the few header writers who has written thread headers on both of these topics as far back as 2016, precisely because they are legitimate subjects for debate.
But I have tried to do so on the basis of facts. It has nothing to do with me being some sort of "left liberal" and everything with me being a professional investigator for the best part of 4 decades and so having a rather better idea than you of what is involved in sensitive investigations, the difficulties of establishing facts quickly and the dangers of jumping to conclusions or of making assumptions.
I will come back to it once the suspect has been charged and the motive confirmed but all the signs are clearly pointing in one direction.
I do try and read some of your thread headers but then again reading War and Peace takes almost as long so forgive me if I do not always remember precisely all the main points of them
Was it the Readers Digest version of War and Peace you read?
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?
I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.
Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"
Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?
Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.
An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!
Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.
That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.
It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
Finally FINALLY I get insulted by @SeanT - or someone like him. After 14 years. Oof! All those posts - and I've finally made it. I am SO chuffed.
Admittedly the insult is not as good as the real Sean's ones. They were works of art, really. But I have also been called a "left liberal" by @HYUFD. On the same day.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
That is right with the caveat that many of those who express that view (and I’m not saying you are in this category) are perfectly happy to demonise a whole category of people (WWC, for example) on other topics or indeed when they have committed a similar act (eg Jo Cox).
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?
I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.
Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"
Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?
Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.
An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!
Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.
That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.
It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
Finally FINALLY I get insulted by @SeanT - or someone like him. After 14 years. Oof! All those posts - and I've finally made it. I am SO chuffed.
Admittedly the insult is not as good as the real Sean's ones. They were works of art, really. But I have also been called a "left liberal" by @HYUFD. On the same day.
So really my cup runneth over. THANKS GUYS!
That’s great but would you admit you were actually wrong?
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
That is right with the caveat that many of those who express that view (and I’m not saying you are in this category) are perfectly happy to demonise a whole category of people (WWC, for example) on other topics or indeed when they have committed a similar act (eg Jo Cox).
Separate but similar to such demonisation is the often legitimate use of broad-brush demographics in political analysis, for instance that the old vote Tory and the WWC supported Brexit. This may be useful shorthand but it makes me uneasy because it is a short step away from hostile stereotyping.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
That is right with the caveat that many of those who express that view (and I’m not saying you are in this category) are perfectly happy to demonise a whole category of people (WWC, for example) on other topics or indeed when they have committed a similar act (eg Jo Cox).
Separate but similar to such demonisation is the often legitimate use of broad-brush demographics in political analysis, for instance that the old vote Tory and the WWC supported Brexit. This may be useful shorthand but it makes me uneasy because it is a short step away from hostile stereotyping.
Oh, agree on that. But there is a difference between saying WWC voted Brexit - which is broadly correct but misses out plenty that didn’t - and the views of at least one poster on here who have said that WWC are all racist bigots.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
Bollox in bold.
We have to stand up against this islamofascism. Cleanse it from within our borders and support Europe and America in doing the same. Fundamentalist Islam is cancerous to the west. Drain the swamp and there will be no more mosquitos.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?
I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.
Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"
Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?
Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.
An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!
Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.
That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.
It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
Finally FINALLY I get insulted by @SeanT - or someone like him. After 14 years. Oof! All those posts - and I've finally made it. I am SO chuffed.
Admittedly the insult is not as good as the real Sean's ones. They were works of art, really. But I have also been called a "left liberal" by @HYUFD. On the same day.
So really my cup runneth over. THANKS GUYS!
That’s great but would you admit you were actually wrong?
She didn't say "it wasn't a jihadi attack". She said "let's see the facts".
We still don't have *all* the facts, but it is definitely looking like it was an islamist attack.
So, I'm struggling to see why she should apologize.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
We are not allowed to demonize "Muslim terrorists" now?
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
We are not allowed to demonize "Muslim terrorists" now?
You may have missed the second sentence in the post to which I responded.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
We're free to speculate now, of course.
But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.
In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.
It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.
All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.
However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.
“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
Good quote. Who?
George W Bush.
Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.
Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.
He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008 in the GFC.
Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it did then given what has occurred since
Iraq is rated "not free" in the Freedom in the World assessment and an "authoritarian regime" in the EIU's Democracy Index.
The worst terrorist attack in US history happened on GWB's watch, after his administration ignored several warning signs.
The mismanagement of Lehman Brothers bankruptcy by his administration massively accelerated the financial crisis. The economy was in free fall when he left office.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
We are not allowed to demonize "Muslim terrorists" now?
You may have missed the second sentence in the post to which I responded.
The second sentence attacked a philosophy, not any people. Which other belief systems are we not allowed to say there is something rotten in? Conservatism? Socialism? The Japanese Imperial Cult? The Creativity sect?
I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!
Actually that footage was from 1992 and was an early indication that Major was winning.
What a moment that was - it must be one of the most dramatic political moments ever - as in literally one single second.
The exit poll was out and a Hung Parliament looked certain.
Then very early in the night after very few results the TV suddenly went to Basildon for the declaration with no warning. Everyone would have expected a Lab gain and there was no word from Dimbleby, no tip off from any reporter at the count - there was everyone on stage waiting for the declaration and then the camera suddenly cut to a close-up of David Amess ............. with a huge smile on his face.
In that instant everyone knew everything had changed - Mr Kinnock would not be going to Downing Street after all.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
We are not allowed to demonize "Muslim terrorists" now?
You may have missed the second sentence in the post to which I responded.
The second sentence attacked a philosophy, not any people. Which other belief systems are we not allowed to say there is something rotten in? Conservatism? Socialism? The Japanese Imperial Cult? The Creativity sect?
And the third. And the whole. It is clear I am talking about Muslims not just Muslim terrorists and the danger in slipping from the one to the other. But you probably knew that.
The killing of the Conservative MP David Amess, who died after being stabbed several times at an open advice surgery for his constituents in Essex, has been declared as a terrorist incident. ... ... A 25-year-old man, believed to be a Briton with Somali heritage, is in custody and has been arrested on suspicion of murder. Sources have told the Guardian he has the same details as someone who had previously been referred to the Prevent scheme, the official programme for those thought at risk of radicalisation. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
Funny old world.....I just read one of the most reasonable and nuanced posts of the day as I flicked through the last few threads. A pleasant relief from the dreary professional mourners looking for 'likes' who had been out in force. It had been liked by two posters I admire so I added mine to it.
It was a poster I'm relatively unfamiliar with so I made a mental note to read his stuff in future. His name was PING!
I've now spent the last five minutes backtracking like a madman looking for the post again so I could remove my precious 'like'
No harm done perhaps he's just another of Sean's alter-egos
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?
I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.
Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"
Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?
Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.
An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!
Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.
That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.
It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
Finally FINALLY I get insulted by @SeanT - or someone like him. After 14 years. Oof! All those posts - and I've finally made it. I am SO chuffed.
Admittedly the insult is not as good as the real Sean's ones. They were works of art, really. But I have also been called a "left liberal" by @HYUFD. On the same day.
So really my cup runneth over. THANKS GUYS!
It may not have been his best, but he was clearly in rather a prickly mood.
Wowsers. This thread. We've just had another MP murdered and some people want more division, more hate, more crackdowns?
HYUFD even managed to link it to "slipping through the net" as if this murder justifies the "drown the forrin" policy of the government.
We need less division and hate, not more. That is how you catch the lunatics, by making them stand out from decent society. Not by debasing society so that their hate can hide in "normal" opinions.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
The overwhelming majority of Muslims have not stabbed their MP. We should all be outraged by yesterday's murder but whether for respect for Amess or simple common sense, we should avoid the demonisation and dehumanisation of whole groups of our countrymen. It may even be, as speculated on the last thread, that such discourse is a contributory factor.
That is right with the caveat that many of those who express that view (and I’m not saying you are in this category) are perfectly happy to demonise a whole category of people (WWC, for example) on other topics or indeed when they have committed a similar act (eg Jo Cox).
There is a difference between demonising Muslims and demonising white supremacists.
I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!
Actually that footage was from 1992 and was an early indication that Major was winning.
What a moment that was - it must be one of the most dramatic political moments ever - as in literally one single second.
The exit poll was out and a Hung Parliament looked certain.
Then very early in the night after very few results the TV suddenly went to Basildon for the declaration with no warning. Everyone would have expected a Lab gain and there was no word from Dimbleby, no tip off from any reporter at the count - there was everyone on stage waiting for the declaration and then the camera suddenly cut to a close-up of David Amess ............. with a huge smile on his face.
In that instant everyone knew everything had changed - Mr Kinnock would not be going to Downing Street after all.
I remember it well - in a different but equally dramatic way the size of the majority predicted by the exit poll in 2019 stunned me. I blame it on to much time on here where so many thought it would be much closer.
I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!
Actually that footage was from 1992 and was an early indication that Major was winning.
What a moment that was - it must be one of the most dramatic political moments ever - as in literally one single second.
The exit poll was out and a Hung Parliament looked certain.
Then very early in the night after very few results the TV suddenly went to Basildon for the declaration with no warning. Everyone would have expected a Lab gain and there was no word from Dimbleby, no tip off from any reporter at the count - there was everyone on stage waiting for the declaration and then the camera suddenly cut to a close-up of David Amess ............. with a huge smile on his face.
In that instant everyone knew everything had changed - Mr Kinnock would not be going to Downing Street after all.
Politically one of the most disappointing moments in living memory
I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!
Actually that footage was from 1992 and was an early indication that Major was winning.
What a moment that was - it must be one of the most dramatic political moments ever - as in literally one single second.
The exit poll was out and a Hung Parliament looked certain.
Then very early in the night after very few results the TV suddenly went to Basildon for the declaration with no warning. Everyone would have expected a Lab gain and there was no word from Dimbleby, no tip off from any reporter at the count - there was everyone on stage waiting for the declaration and then the camera suddenly cut to a close-up of David Amess ............. with a huge smile on his face.
In that instant everyone knew everything had changed - Mr Kinnock would not be going to Downing Street after all.
Interesting point is that the result in Basildon wasn't typical of marginal seats. The swing there was 1% and the swing in all Con/Lab marginals was 4%. The Tory majority would have been about 80 seats instead of 21 if Basildon had been typical. John Major wouldn't have had a problem with the Eurosceptics for 5 years with a majority that size.
Here we go again. Some of the people calling for less division and less hatred are happy to perpetuate division and hatred (although not violence) when it is politics as normal . Physician heal Tthyself. A Somali, it appears, is the killer. This doesn’t make all, or most, Somalis or Muslims evil people or bad people or bad citizens. You cannot blame an entire group for the action of an individual.
It’s an awful event, people need to think about what they say.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
Goppod morning everyone. Somewhat strange to see sheets one once knew quite well all over the TV.
Made a mess of that, didn't I! Thought Covid's mental fog was over! Or maybe the day's first coffee hadn't kicked in yet! It's a 'Good" morning of course, and 'streets', not 'sheets'!
I suppose one could argue that Basildon was the first crack in the Red Wall.
Here we go again. Some of the people calling for less division and less hatred are happy to perpetuate division and hatred (although not violence) when it is politics as normal . Physician heal Tthyself. A Somali, it appears, is the killer. This doesn’t make all, or most, Somalis or Muslims evil people or bad people or bad citizens. You cannot blame an entire group for the action of an individual.
It’s an awful event, people need to think about what they say.
Here we go again. Some of the people calling for less division and less hatred are happy to perpetuate division and hatred (although not violence) when it is politics as normal . Physician heal Tthyself. A Somali, it appears, is the killer. This doesn’t make all, or most, Somalis or Muslims evil people or bad people or bad citizens. You cannot blame an entire group for the action of an individual.
It’s an awful event, people need to think about what they say.
Twitter is proving to be a cesspit.
Totally agree, but he's British, isn't he?
The reports I read said the killer was Somali.
In spite of what some here were saying Mr Amess seems to have been a decent man and welcoming.
Some years ago our local WEA ran a course on 'Islam in the Modern World' with a chap who described himself as a 'one-time jihadi (he'd fought in Bosnia) as the speaker. He was very articulate, and highlighted to desire of the vast majority of Muslims to live in peace with their neighbours, and the difficulty the community sometimes has in adjusting their beliefs and practices to those around them.
Here we go again. Some of the people calling for less division and less hatred are happy to perpetuate division and hatred (although not violence) when it is politics as normal . Physician heal Tthyself. A Somali, it appears, is the killer. This doesn’t make all, or most, Somalis or Muslims evil people or bad people or bad citizens. You cannot blame an entire group for the action of an individual.
It’s an awful event, people need to think about what they say.
Twitter is proving to be a cesspit.
Totally agree, but he's British, isn't he?
The reports I read said the killer was Somali.
In spite of what some here were saying Mr Amess seems to have been a decent man and welcoming.
It's kind of sad that it is only at terrible times like these that we learn of the close cross-party friendships and levels of cooperation that exist in Parliament.
Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters
It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO
It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back
I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them
Did you see this by Jay Rayner ?
Looking for the finest French restaurants? Go to London, not Paris
Not only that, but the Italian restaurants are better than Rome’s. Really, why bother going abroad?
I'd put in a word for Dal Bolognese, next to the Piazza del Popolo. I was put onto it by Trevor Sorbie, who was put onto it by Bryan Ferry. One of the most memorable meals for all the right reasons. Sat under a very large portrait of Enzo Ferrari.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
It's kind of sad that it is only at terrible times like these that we learn of the close cross-party friendships and levels of cooperation that exist in Parliament.
Paul Williams used to tell me in hushed tones that many of his closest friends in parliament were from other parties. That he liked and respected Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and was working very effectively with him. Hushed tones because those were excommunication offences in Jezbollah's Labour Party.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I am also minded that when Anders Brevik launched his horrendous attacks in Norway, Sean Thomas and I spent the first couple of hours trying to rationalise with people who were claiming immediately that it was an islamist attack. Such speculation helps no one
Whilst I agree with that, all the talk about social media and how we treat each other is hinting at something else. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that chances are we know what this will turn out to be.
The Glasgow bin lorry crash some years ago was another example of some PBers rushing to conclusions.
We're averaging what, 1 serious attack knife/sword attack per parliament? That's enough to require a response. MPs should be armed, if they lose the election they can hand over their weapon to the next guy at the count.
Like many police, I wouldn't have welcomed being issued a gun. A pepper spray, perhaps.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
I wonder how it helps anyone - other than impatient news junkies - for the police to leak to the media information about the ethnicity or religion of a suspect, as they apparently have done here.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
@ Nick Palmer The superimposition of generalised or supposed characteristics of a group onto an individual is discrimination. In almost any sotuation it is unacceptable. As you say it is only a small stones throw away from racism.
It's kind of sad that it is only at terrible times like these that we learn of the close cross-party friendships and levels of cooperation that exist in Parliament.
Paul Williams used to tell me in hushed tones that many of his closest friends in parliament were from other parties. That he liked and respected Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt and was working very effectively with him. Hushed tones because those were excommunication offences in Jezbollah's Labour Party.
What a sad state of affairs. And at one stage of my life I was often in a very confrontational situation with members of another professional group, but always used to insist that after, and outside the meeting, what we had discussed should not be talked about, but we should try and find something where we were all interested. It didn't always work, but I tried to keep it civilised.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I am also minded that when Anders Brevik launched his horrendous attacks in Norway, Sean Thomas and I spent the first couple of hours trying to rationalise with people who were claiming immediately that it was an islamist attack. Such speculation helps no one
Whilst I agree with that, all the talk about social media and how we treat each other is hinting at something else. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that chances are we know what this will turn out to be.
The Glasgow bin lorry crash some years ago was another example of some PBers rushing to conclusions.
If you want to score some more points, some were talking about Rayner’s comments. I think it’s fair to say that those comments played no part whatsoever in yesterday’s attack.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
Nice sentiments, but you might like to share them with Angela Rayner, who clearly wouldn't want to live next door to one of those Tories....
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
Funny old world.....I just read one of the most reasonable and nuanced posts of the day as I flicked through the last few threads. A pleasant relief from the dreary professional mourners looking for 'likes' who had been out in force. It had been liked by two posters I admire so I added mine to it.
It was a poster I'm relatively unfamiliar with so I made a mental note to read his stuff in future. His name was PING!
I've now spent the last five minutes backtracking like a madman looking for the post again so I could remove my precious 'like'
No harm done perhaps he's just another of Sean's alter-egos
'Professional mourners looking for likes'.
You seem to have this ability to see into people's heads and read their thoughts, to miraculously discern their motivations and lack of sincerity.
Personally I think most people mean what they say, no more and no less. Even if what they say is horrible.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
There are multiple aspects of the job. They are admittedly not great at all of them.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?
In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?
I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.
Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"
Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?
Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.
An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!
Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.
That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.
It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
I didn't think that commitment to being polite and avoiding abuse would last.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
There are multiple aspects of the job. They are admittedly not great at all of them.
Most are just like sheep, they turn up and are told how to vote , they do little and achieve even less. Just look at SNP for the perfect example, as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Living it up in London and achieving 0/100 on what they were elected for. Westminster is a huge waste of money with MP's and their venal counterparts in HoL just living it up and doing next to feck all. Most are invisible and could be replaced by a sheep.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I'd phrase it more that the problem is with fundamentalists.
Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews, fundamentalist Islam.
Any kind of interpretation of religion that requires strict conformity with a text written thousands of years ago is likely to sit uneasily in our modern society.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
In case you haven’t noticed, Amess was murdered doing an in-person surgery. He clearly wasn’t worried about COVID.
Goppod morning everyone. Somewhat strange to see sheets one once knew quite well all over the TV.
Made a mess of that, didn't I! Thought Covid's mental fog was over! Or maybe the day's first coffee hadn't kicked in yet! It's a 'Good" morning of course, and 'streets', not 'sheets'!
I suppose one could argue that Basildon was the first crack in the Red Wall.
I rather like the idea of a goppod morning, though. Very goppod down here in Devon, blue skies and light winds. Hope the Covid recovery continues.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
Having lived in several areas of BD7 whilst at University in the late 1980s, that also matches my experience.
Issues, certainly, and places where I would be, and am, very critical. The stereotype is usually wrong, however.
Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.
I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.
It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?
I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.
One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.
And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.
The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.
Identity politics makes this worse.
Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.
Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.
Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.
Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.
We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.
Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.
I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.
It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?
I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.
One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.
And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.
The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.
Identity politics makes this worse.
Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.
Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.
Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.
Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.
We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.
Well said, as is your post about the Muslims you went to school/ work with.
And, if you spend all your time with people who think the world is out to get you, it's a short step to thinking maybe it's time to start evening the score.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
@ Nick Palmer The superimposition of generalised or supposed characteristics of a group onto an individual is discrimination. In almost any sotuation it is unacceptable. As you say it is only a small stones throw away from racism.
Some level of generalisation about groups of people is necessary to have productive discourse. Otherwise you can never make any meaningful comment about the direction that society is taking, and the challenges faced by groups within it. Belief that everything is transcended by the individual can lead to bad conclusions - for instance you could conclude that there is no problem with religious extremism; there are just bad people. This would obviously be an error.
Humans organise themselves in to groups, and these groups are often characterised by shared ideas and values. This is objective reality, and has been the case forever.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
@ Nick Palmer The superimposition of generalised or supposed characteristics of a group onto an individual is discrimination. In almost any sotuation it is unacceptable. As you say it is only a small stones throw away from racism.
Some level of generalisation about groups of people is necessary to have productive discourse. Otherwise you can never make any meaningful comment about the direction that society is taking, and the challenges faced by groups within it. Belief that everything is transcended by the individual can lead to bad conclusions - for instance you could conclude that there is no problem with religious extremism; there are just bad people. This would obviously be an error.
Humans organise themselves in to groups, and these groups are often characterised by shared ideas and values. This is objective reality, and has been the case forever.
A good point. Grouping will not go away as it's how we operate. Some very good points about individualism but utopianism needs avoiding too.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I'd phrase it more that the problem is with fundamentalists.
Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews, fundamentalist Islam.
Any kind of interpretation of religion that requires strict conformity with a text written thousands of years ago is likely to sit uneasily in our modern society.
Needn't even be an ancient religion. There's a kind of fundamentalist liberalism in the more humourless examples of woke and PC. Just as toxic.
The trouble, as I see it, is when we focus on the groups and labels and ignore the individuals they're made up of. Or, as another fount of ancient wisdom put it,
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
And drawing an utterly false equivalence based on no evidence what-so-ever. Well done.
Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply
The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats
If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.
We don't know any of this.
A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.
Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.
The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
There seems to be quite a lot of political mileage for some PB posters in Mr Amess's dreadful, dreadful fate, From Raynor to radical Islam, exciteable types it seems can make hay.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
How likely is an MP to miss signs of a life threatening condition by not seeing a constituent face to face?
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
Typical though. All they need do is have a secure partition between them and the public, given how they love splashing our cash this would be a simple solution and one thing we can be sure of is that their will be no lack of cash to be spent on MPs or police officers availability either. Shortages will disappear when it is for themselves.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
I really do not think it was necessary to compare the two
So much for kinder gentler politics and avoiding demonisation:
This sort of dehumanising nonsense is why we have labour shortages in the UK. (And why the UK doesn't have any friends any more) Honestly. The Tories jave decided that making everyone miserable is their core purpose. I'm quite disturbed that the English keep voting for them.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
But that's nonsensical as the justification for the differing attitudes is based on completely different reasoning for very different activities. And it was said by two different people. And not said at the same time. And not both statements of government intention.
Sorry, but I think your 'contrasting' is not exposing the point you think it is as the contrast makes no sense.
Dr. Foxy, is that a fair criticism? MPs don't need to conduct medical examinations, and I'm not aware of two GPs being murdered recently.
I could believe GPs are sadly attacked quite a bit but I dont know the figures on that, but the comparison just makes no sense to me as an attempt to imply a kind of hypocrisy.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Simple , when it is for themselves MPs can sort it out no problem regardless of cost or hassles. They are less punctilious when it is about other people. Cue them all wanting armoured limousines, armed guards etc so they can ape royalty and feel important. Hypocrites all, look at the amount of people being stabbed in the streets every day , have you seen them give a jot or put police on streets or done anything much to fix it , will not hold my breath waiting on a reply.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
And drawing an utterly false equivalence based on no evidence what-so-ever. Well done.
No. Either work can be done effectively electronically or on phone, or not.
Attacks on health service workers are not unknown either, this was our ED in 2018:
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
And drawing an utterly false equivalence based on no evidence what-so-ever. Well done.
No. Either work can be done effectively electronically or on phone, or not.
Attacks on health service workers are not unknown either, this was our ED in 2018:
At just the moment the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the Home Secretary and the Speaker of the HOC lay tributes at the scene you seem completely out of touch with the public mood
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
Nice sentiments, but you might like to share them with Angela Rayner, who clearly wouldn't want to live next door to one of those Tories....
You've been banging on about Rayner's foolish comments for the last 20 hours. You clearly feel you can score political points by doing so. It is very disrespectful to Mr Amess.
Just watching Johnson and Starmer together in Leigh-on-Sea. That is a much better look than your constant trolling.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
I really do not think it was necessary to compare the two
It's not not necessary to compare them, they're just not comparable.
Whether one thinks its important that GPs meet people face to face or not the reason that is proposed is distinct from whether MPs should meet people face to face.
If there's a debate for either they are separate, and the answer for one does not directly affect the other because the purposes are quite different.
Personally I think its important MPs meet people, and that might mean a lot more cost to make sure it's safe, but its unconnected to GPs.
So much for kinder gentler politics and avoiding demonisation:
This sort of dehumanising nonsense is why we have labour shortages in the UK. (And why the UK doesn't have any friends any more) Honestly. The Tories jave decided that making everyone miserable is their core purpose. I'm quite disturbed that the English keep voting for them.
Fuck these Muslim terrorists. There’s something rotten at the heart of Islam.
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
I went to school at Biddenham Upper School in Bedford. It was about 70% Muslim, so you didn't really have a whole bunch of choice about having Muslim friends or not.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
That's a great piece, which corresponds to my experience. It's equally a mistake to say most Muslims are terrorist sympathisers or that most Muslims are saintly - broadly speaking, they're the same as everyone else who grows up in similar circumstances.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
I wonder how it helps anyone - other than impatient news junkies - for the police to leak to the media information about the ethnicity or religion of a suspect, as they apparently have done here.
Is it "the police" as an institution that leak things or is it individuals within the police that do so? Whether for payment or as a favour banked or returned.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
@ Nick Palmer The superimposition of generalised or supposed characteristics of a group onto an individual is discrimination. In almost any sotuation it is unacceptable. As you say it is only a small stones throw away from racism.
Some level of generalisation about groups of people is necessary to have productive discourse. Otherwise you can never make any meaningful comment about the direction that society is taking, and the challenges faced by groups within it. Belief that everything is transcended by the individual can lead to bad conclusions - for instance you could conclude that there is no problem with religious extremism; there are just bad people. This would obviously be an error.
Humans organise themselves in to groups, and these groups are often characterised by shared ideas and values. This is objective reality, and has been the case forever.
Yes, well, generalisation about generalisations is also risky . But two points:
1. Generalising about accidents of birth (being black or Paraguayan or whatever) is several degrees stupider than generalising about a group that people choose to join as adults. Sometimes upbringing and childhood environment will be important, but not simply nationality or colour, and people often grow away from their upbringing anyway.
2. Even with groups that people voluntarily join as adults, assumptions that you might reasonably make should only be a starting point in looking at an individual. BigG and HYUFD have generally been Conservatives most of their lives, but it's probably difficult to say much that is true of both of them. In Britain in particular, shared groups like these are broad churches and include a multitude of very different people.
Dr. Foxy, is that a fair criticism? MPs don't need to conduct medical examinations, and I'm not aware of two GPs being murdered recently.
I could believe GPs are sadly attacked quite a bit but I dont know the figures on that, but the comparison just makes no sense to me as an attempt to imply a kind of hypocrisy.
The reality is that attacks on public servants, from verbal to fatal occur across a range of settings, health care, social work, police, prisons, MPs, indeed wherever workers and public meet.
There are increased cases of abuse and physical threat to NHS staff since the government stoked up anger at GPs over face to face contacts.
So much for kinder gentler politics and avoiding demonisation:
This sort of dehumanising nonsense is why we have labour shortages in the UK. (And why the UK doesn't have any friends any more) Honestly. The Tories jave decided that making everyone miserable is their core purpose. I'm quite disturbed that the English keep voting for them.
A very sad day indeed, but not alas an altogether surprising one. Our MPs have been increasingly subject to harassment, violent threats, and violent acts, in recent years. They rarely mention it, preferring just to get on with their jobs and go on meeting and serving their constituents. We should remember and cherish that, even (in fact, especially) when we strongly disagree with their politics.
Very sad indeed as this incident is , I would disagree with you that MPs are just getting on with their jobs. The current government are venal and useless at best and are not held to account by MPs. Many are NOT doing their job. Politics at present is about as low as it can get.
Interesting that Tobias Ellwood today said that MPs surgery's should stop being face to face, just two days after Javid said patients should demand f2f consultations with GP's, and name and shame those who don't. One rule for them hey?
I cant even figure out what point you think you are making there.
Just contrasting the attitudes to face to face surgery's with the public.
And drawing an utterly false equivalence based on no evidence what-so-ever. Well done.
No. Either work can be done effectively electronically or on phone, or not.
Attacks on health service workers are not unknown either, this was our ED in 2018:
Just completely untrue. The daughter of a friend is having severe psychological problems. We were mystified as to why her GP hadn't picked up the fact she has halved in weight in 3 months, until we discovered she was consulting online. And I am embarrassed to be explaining this to a doctor, but some cancer patients, by no means all, actually look as if they have cancer.
Comments
None of this detracted from the astonishing food.
Just the service didn’t quite match the bill if you know what I mean.
It was GW Bush under whom, and perhaps without his direct complicity, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld set fire to the Middle East, and also to the normal checks and balances of the American constitution.
It was GW Bush under whom the global financial crisis started in America.
Not feeling the GWB was ace vibe.
Before it is washed to the Sea?
I’m quite happy to live alongside the liberal, tolerant Muslims, but they’re the minority.
We’ve got a fucking problem.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right
Admittedly the insult is not as good as the real Sean's ones. They were works of art, really. But I have also been called a "left liberal" by @HYUFD. On the same day.
So really my cup runneth over. THANKS GUYS!
We have to stand up against this islamofascism. Cleanse it from within our borders and support Europe and America in doing the same. Fundamentalist Islam is cancerous to the west. Drain the swamp and there will be no more mosquitos.
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/11/01/lars-vilks-lonely-hero-of-the-cartoon-wars/
We still don't have *all* the facts, but it is definitely looking like it was an islamist attack.
So, I'm struggling to see why she should apologize.
The worst terrorist attack in US history happened on GWB's watch, after his administration ignored several warning signs.
The mismanagement of Lehman Brothers bankruptcy by his administration massively accelerated the financial crisis. The economy was in free fall when he left office.
The exit poll was out and a Hung Parliament looked certain.
Then very early in the night after very few results the TV suddenly went to Basildon for the declaration with no warning. Everyone would have expected a Lab gain and there was no word from Dimbleby, no tip off from any reporter at the count - there was everyone on stage waiting for the declaration and then the camera suddenly cut to a close-up of David Amess ............. with a huge smile on his face.
In that instant everyone knew everything had changed - Mr Kinnock would not be going to Downing Street after all.
The killing of the Conservative MP David Amess, who died after being stabbed several times at an open advice surgery for his constituents in Essex, has been declared as a terrorist incident.
... ...
A 25-year-old man, believed to be a Briton with Somali heritage, is in custody and has been arrested on suspicion of murder. Sources have told the Guardian he has the same details as someone who had previously been referred to the Prevent scheme, the official programme for those thought at risk of radicalisation.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/15/counter-terrorism-police-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing
It was a poster I'm relatively unfamiliar with so I made a mental note to read his stuff in future. His name was PING!
I've now spent the last five minutes backtracking like a madman looking for the post again so I could remove my precious 'like'
No harm done perhaps he's just another of Sean's alter-egos
https://news.met.police.uk/news/counter-terrorism-command-leading-investigation-into-sir-david-amess-murder-435677
HYUFD even managed to link it to "slipping through the net" as if this murder justifies the "drown the forrin" policy of the government.
We need less division and hate, not more. That is how you catch the lunatics, by making them stand out from decent society. Not by debasing society so that their hate can hide in "normal" opinions.
It’s an awful event, people need to think about what they say.
Twitter is proving to be a cesspit.
Mostly, I learned that Muslims are human beings. They argue with their parents. They bitch about homework. They apply for the same jobs that you or I do. They watch the same movies and TV. They support the same sports teams.
In work, I was also lucky enough to find myself sitting opposite a guy I now call one of my very best friends. A Muslim of Persian heritage who - it is fair to say - hates the Iranian regime more than even Donald Trump. He's married to an Irish Catholic. And is probably about as good a Muslim as TSE.
After university, I lived for four years in Tower Hamlets, a short walk from Brick Lane, with a Muslim landlord.
Now, I know (mostly) middle class Muslims. But my general observation is that they're like anybody else. My orthodox Jewish friends, with the women having ritual baths after periods and no touching of the opposite sex and wigs to hide the hair, are perhaps culturally more alien to me than the Muslims I know.
Here in LA, things are even more weird. Our local public elementary school is *very* Persian - perhaps half the kids are of Persian heritage, split roughly equally between Jews and Muslims. And you'd never guess that in the rest of the world Jews and Muslims don't get along. Here: they meet and they drink and they cry about their friends and families that were killed by the current Iranian regime.
I mention all this, because the world is a complex place.
It's a 'Good" morning of course, and 'streets', not 'sheets'!
I suppose one could argue that Basildon was the first crack in the Red Wall.
In spite of what some here were saying Mr Amess seems to have been a decent man and welcoming.
https://twitter.com/xkrxoqd/status/1449177868932632583?s=21
He was very articulate, and highlighted to desire of the vast majority of Muslims to live in peace with their neighbours, and the difficulty the community sometimes has in adjusting their beliefs and practices to those around them.
The tendency to make generalisations about other groups (especially critical judgments, but even positive ones) - not just racial but also by age or politics or whatever - is dehumanising. It reduces the individual to a two-dimensional steroeotype, and actual racism is sometimes only one step behind ("wouldn't one to live next to one of those"). In reality, most of us who seem very similar to many others are different in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. We're human individuals.
As you say it is only a small stones throw away from racism.
It didn't always work, but I tried to keep it civilised.
F1: calendar for 2022 is out. China notable by its absence.
https://twitter.com/superlicense/status/1449120781003223044
You seem to have this ability to see into people's heads and read their thoughts, to miraculously discern their motivations and lack of sincerity.
Personally I think most people mean what they say, no more and no less. Even if what they say is horrible.
Fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews, fundamentalist Islam.
Any kind of interpretation of religion that requires strict conformity with a text written thousands of years ago is likely to sit uneasily in our modern society.
https://twitter.com/MoritzGerstung/status/1448681184473538567?s=20
Issues, certainly, and places where I would be, and am, very critical. The stereotype is usually wrong, however.
And, if you spend all your time with people who think the world is out to get you, it's a short step to thinking maybe it's time to start evening the score.
Humans organise themselves in to groups, and these groups are often characterised by shared ideas and values. This is objective reality, and has been the case forever.
The trouble, as I see it, is when we focus on the groups and labels and ignore the individuals they're made up of. Or, as another fount of ancient wisdom put it,
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
It is in very poor taste.
Typical though. All they need do is have a secure partition between them and the public, given how they love splashing our cash this would be a simple solution and one thing we can be sure of is that their will be no lack of cash to be spent on MPs or police officers availability either. Shortages will disappear when it is for themselves.
This sort of dehumanising nonsense is why we have labour shortages in the UK. (And why the UK doesn't have any friends any more) Honestly. The Tories jave decided that making everyone miserable is their core purpose. I'm quite disturbed that the English keep voting for them.
https://twitter.com/lornaslater/status/1449262107770380290?s=20
Sorry, but I think your 'contrasting' is not exposing the point you think it is as the contrast makes no sense.
Cue them all wanting armoured limousines, armed guards etc so they can ape royalty and feel important.
Hypocrites all, look at the amount of people being stabbed in the streets every day , have you seen them give a jot or put police on streets or done anything much to fix it , will not hold my breath waiting on a reply.
Attacks on health service workers are not unknown either, this was our ED in 2018:
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/violent-thug-went-rampage-leicester-1936825
Just watching Johnson and Starmer together in Leigh-on-Sea. That is a much better look than your constant trolling.
Whether one thinks its important that GPs meet people face to face or not the reason that is proposed is distinct from whether MPs should meet people face to face.
If there's a debate for either they are separate, and the answer for one does not directly affect the other because the purposes are quite different.
Personally I think its important MPs meet people, and that might mean a lot more cost to make sure it's safe, but its unconnected to GPs.
But it's par for the course for the sesspit that is Scottish politics. It's such a shame 45pc vote for such devisive left wing nationalism.
1. Generalising about accidents of birth (being black or Paraguayan or whatever) is several degrees stupider than generalising about a group that people choose to join as adults. Sometimes upbringing and childhood environment will be important, but not simply nationality or colour, and people often grow away from their upbringing anyway.
2. Even with groups that people voluntarily join as adults, assumptions that you might reasonably make should only be a starting point in looking at an individual. BigG and HYUFD have generally been Conservatives most of their lives, but it's probably difficult to say much that is true of both of them. In Britain in particular, shared groups like these are broad churches and include a multitude of very different people.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/appalling-attack-gp-surgery-staff-21607333
The reality is that attacks on public servants, from verbal to fatal occur across a range of settings, health care, social work, police, prisons, MPs, indeed wherever workers and public meet.
There are increased cases of abuse and physical threat to NHS staff since the government stoked up anger at GPs over face to face contacts.
PB ain't got shit compared to SNP types