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How the papers are covering a very sad day in British politics – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 15 in General
imageHow the papers are covering a very sad day in British politics – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,923
    A sad day.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,356
    An interesting split between those papers saying 'MP' and those saying 'Tory MP'.

    I don't think it is anything meaningful, but something I noticed.
  • Heartbreaking day
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,652

    A sad day.

    Indeed. Bleak.

    I am turning in early and hoping for a brighter day tomorrow.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,238
    edited October 15

    An interesting split between those papers saying 'MP' and those saying 'Tory MP'.

    I don't think it is anything meaningful, but something I noticed.

    The headline that strikes me is the Mirror.

    Not a paper that would normally say anything good about the Tories.

    But a touching and very accurate comment. He did die because he was serving the people of his constituency by holding a surgery. Which tragically gave this person their opportunity.

    Respect to them for a rare moment of classiness.
  • @MrBrendanCox
    Today is a good day to thank an MP for their service. Whether or not you agree with their politics.
    https://twitter.com/MrBrendanCox/status/1449102363428540419
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 129
    I would have disagreed with David Amess about most of his politics and he with mine. I have been thinking about the trauma he went through since I heard about it. Violence is abhorrent to me. My thoughts are with all those who loved him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    The Star displaying their excellent antenna of when its time to get serious in a headline.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    edited October 15

    @MrBrendanCox
    Today is a good day to thank an MP for their service. Whether or not you agree with their politics.
    https://twitter.com/MrBrendanCox/status/1449102363428540419

    It is an arresting fact that, even though most people have a very low opinion of MP's in general, the majority like their own MP. Even if they don't necessarily agree with their politics.
    That's why we have an incumbency bonus after all.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    Poor Sir David. Let’s hope his attacker is brought to justice and there is less hyperbolic hatred in politics after today - what more would it take if not?

    I was trying to convince my girlfriend we should move to Leigh on Sea last summer, quite glad we didn’t now
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    There are four different dogs being held by Sir David in these photos, he really was an animal fan I see.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    We joke about MPs, and we are frustrated by them, and the worst of them infuriate us, but as the Mirror says, ultimately their job is to serve the people, and most of them try to do their best at that. We don't have to give any of them a pass for poor behaviour or politics, but we should try to remember that it is about service.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    edited October 15
    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism
  • @RupaHuq
    Shocked and devastated at the news of Sir David Amess’ horrific and brutal killing. Still trying to process after finishing my own overrunning surgery today. I served alongside him only this week on a Parliamentary delegation.

    Such a kind, decent man, huge loss to us all
    https://twitter.com/RupaHuq/status/1449076523332481036
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    I always thought he was a diamond geezer. RIP
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    Well said Max.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    Noticed it change for the worse playing Internet Go, believe it or not.
    Used to be only 2 reactions. Well played, or (more likely at my level), I made an error.
    Now there's a lot of passive aggressive comments.
    And use of the word lucky. Which is the last thing it is possible to be. It isn't as though anyone throws three double 6's.
    Can't imagine folk would behave like that in person. It is getting wearying tbh.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,260
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    Great that you've got inside info on this, what's the news source you have access to?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    Great that you've got inside info on this, what's the news source you have access to?
    I don’t, I said it seems to be pointing that way. Mind you, I’m sure when Jo Cox’s killer was identified, you were the one of the first to blame it on the evils of Brexit. Nothing like hypocrisy.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 129
    dixiedean said:

    Noticed it change for the worse playing Internet Go, believe it or not.
    Used to be only 2 reactions. Well played, or (more likely at my level), I made an error.
    Now there's a lot of passive aggressive comments.
    And use of the word lucky. Which is the last thing it is possible to be. It isn't as though anyone throws three double 6's.
    Can't imagine folk would behave like that in person. It is getting wearying tbh.

    Having played lots of Bridge in my life, you will find that people who can really play will congratulate on doing something well. Those that think they can play will only gloat over their good results and those who can't really play need all the encouragement you can give them.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,757
    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    Have you considered that both might be true? That the people to target for radicalisation and grooming to kill are those with mental health issues?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,260
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    Great that you've got inside info on this, what's the news source you have access to?
    I don’t, I said it seems to be pointing that way. Mind you, I’m sure when Jo Cox’s killer was identified, you were the one of the first to blame it on the evils of Brexit. Nothing like hypocrisy.
    So you haven't a clue what happened today or what my opinions were over the Jo Cox murder.

    Nothing like a tit confirming that they're a tit.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,727
    As much as I approve of trying to encourage greater cordiality in politics, the reality is that this attack almost certainly isn’t because of people being nasty on Twitter.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    The question is how do those people get there in the first place, yes I agree that there are thousands of people who hate us and will try and kill us if they get the chance. The earlier question is what leads them down this path, is it hate preachers? Why are they still preaching. Is it social media? Time to get incitement off social media or make the companies face mega fines if they can't police it. We can't just accept that people want to kill us.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    Have you considered that both might be true? That the people to target for radicalisation and grooming to kill are those with mental health issues?
    Yes, but that then raises a question which is “if you hold such views, then are you likely suffering from mental health issues?”. If that’s the case, then the laws allow such people to be detained by doctors’ orders. Maybe we should be considering using such legislation more widely.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    tlg86 said:

    As much as I approve of trying to encourage greater cordiality in politics, the reality is that this attack almost certainly isn’t because of people being nasty on Twitter.

    Probably not, but connected or not the vicious, uncompromising rhetoric, particularly prevalent in some areas but certainly stoked from all quarters, is something that is a problem and should be addressed. It won't change as a result of this - why would it, tragic deaths have not changed that in the past - but it would be nice if, even if unconnected, it caused a least a momentary reflection on it as a tangential issue.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    Great that you've got inside info on this, what's the news source you have access to?
    I don’t, I said it seems to be pointing that way. Mind you, I’m sure when Jo Cox’s killer was identified, you were the one of the first to blame it on the evils of Brexit. Nothing like hypocrisy.
    So you haven't a clue what happened today or what my opinions were over the Jo Cox murder.

    Nothing like a tit confirming that they're a tit.
    I didn’t say I did. As I said, it seems from what it is being reported. But, please, tell us what you said on here about Jo Cox’s Murder.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,589
    No idea why there is discourse on here tonight.

    Its a tragic day and we should think of the Amess family and friends grief and give our sympathies for that and not speculate on the killer at this time.

    Plenty of time for that further down the line but not today.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,901
    This is a rather lovely film of Mr Amess speaking at the end of a concert given by children in a charity he supported.

    https://twitter.com/pennymordaunt/status/1449021012763369475?s=21
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    No idea why there is discourse on here tonight.

    Its a tragic day and we should think of the Amess family and friends grief and give our sympathies for that and not speculate on the killer at this time.

    Plenty of time for that further down the line but not today.

    Life, and discourse, does not stop for tragedy, and plenty of people suffering a loss would even say they would not want it to stop. And whether one is stonily unaffected or does feel affected, for whatever reason, about today's events, talking about things, even as a distraction, can help.

    I'd even stick up for somewhat uncouth or distasteful speculation and commentary, as common mood will judge if lines have been crossed on that score.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 129
    I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,589
    kle4 said:

    No idea why there is discourse on here tonight.

    Its a tragic day and we should think of the Amess family and friends grief and give our sympathies for that and not speculate on the killer at this time.

    Plenty of time for that further down the line but not today.

    Life, and discourse, does not stop for tragedy, and plenty of people suffering a loss would even say they would not want it to stop. And whether one is stonily unaffected or does feel affected, for whatever reason, about today's events, talking about things, even as a distraction, can help.

    I'd even stick up for somewhat uncouth or distasteful speculation and commentary, as common mood will judge if lines have been crossed on that score.
    I find it distasteful so I shall leave for now and return in a couple of days.
  • rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

    The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

    Identity politics makes this worse.

    Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

    Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

    Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

    Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

    We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

    Isn't Pro life the same as anti-abortion?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Action_League
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    The question is how do those people get there in the first place, yes I agree that there are thousands of people who hate us and will try and kill us if they get the chance. The earlier question is what leads them down this path, is it hate preachers? Why are they still preaching. Is it social media? Time to get incitement off social media or make the companies face mega fines if they can't police it. We can't just accept that people want to kill us.
    There is a dangerously fine line between avoiding people preaching hate and radicalisation, and suppressing free speech.

    Take Steve Bannon. In the lead up to January 6th he did a lot of things that look an awful lot like incitement to violence. If he calls for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of the people" who stole the election, how is that different from an Iman calling for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of Islam".

    Where do you draw the line, and how do you stop the suppression of free speech?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,572
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

    The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

    Identity politics makes this worse.

    Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

    Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

    Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

    Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

    We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

    I am not intending to be flippant by saying that more people should spend time on forums like PB. Anyone with an ounce of humility, common sense and compassion benefits from a place where they can listen to or read the views of those who would normally be their political opponents. It humanises us and reminds us that most people just want the same basic things and the only thing that they differ on is the best way to get there.

    I am still convinced that social media and the internet can - and often is - a force for good. But just like the media we sometimes focus too much on the bad aspects of it and forget the good.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,757
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    Have you considered that both might be true? That the people to target for radicalisation and grooming to kill are those with mental health issues?
    Yes, but that then raises a question which is “if you hold such views, then are you likely suffering from mental health issues?”. If that’s the case, then the laws allow such people to be detained by doctors’ orders. Maybe we should be considering using such legislation more widely.

    Possibly decades ago this might have been the case, when the mentally ill might be living in large psychiatric hospitals long since turned into luxury flats and the mentally ill now receive care (or neglect) in the community.

    But not to put the cart before the horse. There are two groups, those inciting terrorist outrages, and the mentally ill who are groomed (and radicalised) to carry them out. It is not the mentally ill who hold "those views" or at least not for very long.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

    The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

    Identity politics makes this worse.

    Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

    Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

    Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

    Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

    We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

    Isn't Pro life the same as anti-abortion?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Action_League
    Oops. I meant "pro choice". Hence the thing about those who want to adopt.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,637

    I think I'm right in thinking that the face of David Amess winning Basildon in 1983 was an early indication that Thatcher was winning. Forgot that he took over from Harvey Proctor - whose views on LGBTQ issues might have differed!

    Actually that footage was from 1992 and was an early indication that Major was winning.
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 129
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    Are you saying that hate should win out then? Them and us whoever them and us is?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    No idea why there is discourse on here tonight.

    Its a tragic day and we should think of the Amess family and friends grief and give our sympathies for that and not speculate on the killer at this time.

    Plenty of time for that further down the line but not today.

    We had plenty of discourse on here when Jo Cox got killed and no one seemed to think it was inappropriate, quite the opposite.

    Regardless, what we say on here doesn’t matter one jot. It’s a terrible day for his family. Your husband / father goes to work for what seems like a normal day and then your hear of his death in such circumstances.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited October 15
    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'

    Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.

    It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.

    However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,572
    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I am also minded that when Anders Brevik launched his horrendous attacks in Norway, Sean Thomas and I spent the first couple of hours trying to rationalise with people who were claiming immediately that it was an islamist attack. Such speculation helps no one
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

    The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

    Identity politics makes this worse.

    Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

    Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

    Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

    Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

    We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

    Isn't Pro life the same as anti-abortion?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Action_League
    Oops. I meant "pro choice". Hence the thing about those who want to adopt.
    Phew, thought I might have got confused,, as I am often am these days!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    Are you saying that hate should win out then? Them and us whoever them and us is?
    Sorry, I don’t understand your question. Are you saying we should let radicalists do what they want?

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,460
    edited October 15
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    As much as I approve of trying to encourage greater cordiality in politics, the reality is that this attack almost certainly isn’t because of people being nasty on Twitter.

    Probably not, but connected or not the vicious, uncompromising rhetoric, particularly prevalent in some areas but certainly stoked from all quarters, is something that is a problem and should be addressed. It won't change as a result of this - why would it, tragic deaths have not changed that in the past - but it would be nice if, even if unconnected, it caused a least a momentary reflection on it as a tangential issue.
    There is, I think, an element of enabling in Twitter hatred which makes some deranged people and extremists feel justified in turning to violence. But, a separate point, as a politician social media exposes you to the most aggressive and extreme opponents who you'd probably never come across by chance.

    I've been active in politics for over 50 years and I've canvassed on my own and with others in every sort of community. I've virtually never encountered menacing behaviour face to face. But I routinely encountered it online. If 1 person in 100,000 is seriously nasty, their chance of meeting you is small unless, as in this case, they actually seek you out. But their chance of threatening you online, if they want to, is 100%. If you're on the receiving end, you can't tell if the verbal assailant is as menacing as he sounds, so you just hope for the best. It is indisputably a discouragement to taking part in public life. And if you're a woman, the threats expand from mere violence to rape and other abuse going beyond most male politicians' experience.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,901
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    News to make Charles happy at least

    Marcus Rashford needs to "prioritise his football" if he is to meet the twin challenges of playing for club and country, says Manchester United manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/58934077
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,727

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I am also minded that when Anders Brevik launched his horrendous attacks in Norway, Sean Thomas and I spent the first couple of hours trying to rationalise with people who were claiming immediately that it was an islamist attack. Such speculation helps no one
    Whilst I agree with that, all the talk about social media and how we treat each other is hinting at something else. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that chances are we know what this will turn out to be.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    Have you considered that both might be true? That the people to target for radicalisation and grooming to kill are those with mental health issues?
    Yes, but that then raises a question which is “if you hold such views, then are you likely suffering from mental health issues?”. If that’s the case, then the laws allow such people to be detained by doctors’ orders. Maybe we should be considering using such legislation more widely.

    Possibly decades ago this might have been the case, when the mentally ill might be living in large psychiatric hospitals long since turned into luxury flats and the mentally ill now receive care (or neglect) in the community.

    But not to put the cart before the horse. There are two groups, those inciting terrorist outrages, and the mentally ill who are groomed (and radicalised) to carry them out. It is not the mentally ill who hold "those views" or at least not for very long.
    Yes, there is certainly a group of vulnerable people who are groomed to do such things and exploited by others. I still believe they should be punished for their actions but the real evil characters are the instigators.

    However, my concern is that mental health issues are rowed out so that we, as a society, don’t have to deal with more fundamentally problematic questions as to what to do with a group of individuals who hate us and hate our society and all it stands for. It is far easier just to believe that is just a lone sick individual where the problem lies.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    The question is how do those people get there in the first place, yes I agree that there are thousands of people who hate us and will try and kill us if they get the chance. The earlier question is what leads them down this path, is it hate preachers? Why are they still preaching. Is it social media? Time to get incitement off social media or make the companies face mega fines if they can't police it. We can't just accept that people want to kill us.
    There is a dangerously fine line between avoiding people preaching hate and radicalisation, and suppressing free speech.

    Take Steve Bannon. In the lead up to January 6th he did a lot of things that look an awful lot like incitement to violence. If he calls for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of the people" who stole the election, how is that different from an Iman calling for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of Islam".

    Where do you draw the line, and how do you stop the suppression of free speech?
    Both of those are incitement to violence which isn't covered by free expression laws. In the first example it's sedition, he's telling people to violently overthrow the government which is surely against the law.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    I think 24 hours is common decency.

    Let people pay their respects to the deceased and quite frankly I have nothing else to say tonight.

    The facts of the case will come out in the next couple of days. We can discuss that then.

    And when Cox was murdered people were shocked and horrified and stopped campaigning for a few days out of respect. Same today. Respect for Amess is all that needs to be on the agenda tonight. 😢
  • mwjfrome17mwjfrome17 Posts: 129
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    Are you saying that hate should win out then? Them and us whoever them and us is?
    Sorry, I don’t understand your question. Are you saying we should let radicalists do what they want?

    I , like you, don't know what a radicalist is......we have no idea what the motivation behind this murder was.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    Have you considered that both might be true? That the people to target for radicalisation and grooming to kill are those with mental health issues?
    Did you ever watch Seven Up?

    It is not surprising that the guy with the mental health issues was also the guy who found himself in the Liberal Democrats a religious organisation.

    I have a friend who was a member of a cult, and his stories about how they targeted the mentally ill are heartbreaking.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
    The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

    Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

    Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

    An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'

    Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.

    It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.

    However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will
    "almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant" ...... and your evidence for this is what, exactly?

    As for me shutting down debate on immigration or indeed Islam, you have a brass neck and a very short memory. I am one of the few header writers who has written thread headers on both of these topics as far back as 2016, precisely because they are legitimate subjects for debate.

    But I have tried to do so on the basis of facts. It has nothing to do with me being some sort of "left liberal" and everything with me being a professional investigator for the best part of 4 decades and so having a rather better idea than you of what is involved in sensitive investigations, the difficulties of establishing facts quickly and the dangers of jumping to conclusions or of making assumptions.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited October 15
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'

    Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.

    It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.

    However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will
    "almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant" ...... and your evidence for this is what, exactly?

    As for me shutting down debate on immigration or indeed Islam, you have a brass neck and a very short memory. I am one of the few header writers who has written thread headers on both of these topics as far back as 2016, precisely because they are legitimate subjects for debate.

    But I have tried to do so on the basis of facts. It has nothing to do with me being some sort of "left liberal" and everything with me being a professional investigator for the best part of 4 decades and so having a rather better idea than you of what is involved in sensitive investigations, the difficulties of establishing facts quickly and the dangers of jumping to conclusions or of making assumptions.
    I will come back to it once the suspect has been charged and the motive confirmed but all the signs are clearly pointing in one direction.

    I do try and read some of your thread headers but then again reading War and Peace takes almost as long so forgive me if I do not always remember precisely all the main points of them
  • rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

    I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

    It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

    I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

    One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

    I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

    However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

    The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.
    The question is how do those people get there in the first place, yes I agree that there are thousands of people who hate us and will try and kill us if they get the chance. The earlier question is what leads them down this path, is it hate preachers? Why are they still preaching. Is it social media? Time to get incitement off social media or make the companies face mega fines if they can't police it. We can't just accept that people want to kill us.
    There is a dangerously fine line between avoiding people preaching hate and radicalisation, and suppressing free speech.

    Take Steve Bannon. In the lead up to January 6th he did a lot of things that look an awful lot like incitement to violence. If he calls for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of the people" who stole the election, how is that different from an Iman calling for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of Islam".

    Where do you draw the line, and how do you stop the suppression of free speech?
    There's a space where the worst excesses of free speech aren't suppressed, but they're not normalised either. For all sorts of reasons, partly the bubbles we mostly like to live in, partly the freakshow media we mostly like to consume, bad stuff has been normalised so you have to be really terrible to be transgressive.

    It's the sort of thing St Paul was writing about;

    “All things are lawful,” but not all things are beneficial. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

    Culturally, we've lost that distinction, and that's a problem. Goodness only knows what we do about it, beyond resolving to be nicer individuals ourselves.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,901
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
    The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

    Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

    Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

    An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

    Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.

    That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.

    It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
    You didn’t from what I remember but others did and were quite happy to tell us how it was down to the evils of Brexit etc etc. As I said just before, I believe you should have the same standard for both - either don’t speculate or agree that speculation is allowed. What is annoying that, in one case (Jo Cox), speculation was deemed not worthy of condemnation but now it’s different circumstances, we are now getting the “oh, we shouldn’t speculate”.

    Regardless, as @Isam has stated, there are certain pointers that suggest where this is heading. Given what has been said, I don’t think it’s wrong to speculate what was the motivation for this attack.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    edited October 15
    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
    The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

    Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

    Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

    An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

    Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.

    That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.

    It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
    Shut up you deluded Cumbrian hedgehog-eater
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

    I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

    Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.
    The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

    Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

    Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

    An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

    Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.

    That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.

    It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.
    You are putting words in peoples’ mouths. No one is claiming it proves anything. What we are saying is the evidence, at the moment, points in one direction.

    While you claim others are making political points, you are doing the same yourself. Only you seem to think you’re not.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,879
    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    Did you see this by Jay Rayner ?

    Looking for the finest French restaurants? Go to London, not Paris

    Not only that, but the Italian restaurants are better than Rome’s. Really, why bother going abroad?


    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/14/looking-for-the-finest-french-restaurants-go-to-london-not-paris-jay-rayner
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    edited October 15
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    You should thank Mister Nabavi, of this parish, who turned me on to it. And yes it is hideously expensive, but yes it is also wonderful, at times. Some truly amazing flavours

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 9,646
    edited October 15
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    Hmm. I was there today.
    Great food. Service a bit iffy. Had to take out a second mortgage.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    Did you see this by Jay Rayner ?

    Looking for the finest French restaurants? Go to London, not Paris

    Not only that, but the Italian restaurants are better than Rome’s. Really, why bother going abroad?


    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/14/looking-for-the-finest-french-restaurants-go-to-london-not-paris-jay-rayner
    There are lots of great Italian restaurants in Italy.

    None of them are in Rome.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited October 15
    'The murder of Sir David Amess in #Essex earlier today has now been declared as a terrorist incident, and the Met's Counter Terrorism Command will lead the investigation.'

    https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1449150762332925952?s=20
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Leon said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    You should thank Mister Nabavi, of this parish, who turned me on to it. And yes it is hideously expensive, but yes it is also wonderful, at times. Some truly amazing flavours

    Then thank you @Richard_Nabavi

    And agree, Soho is back. Buzzing tonight
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,482
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    HYUFD said:

    'The murder of Sir David Amess in #Essex earlier today has now been declared as a terrorist incident, and the Met's Counter Terrorism Command will lead the investigation.'

    https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1449150762332925952?s=20

    *NOW* we can start speculating.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    Hmm. I was there today.
    Great food. Service a bit iffy. Had to take out a second mortgage.
    Have to admit the service was really good when we went but what happened?

    Agree on the second mortgage. I think you have to avoid the wine. If you like red wine, you can’t get a bottle for less than £60
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    You should thank Mister Nabavi, of this parish, who turned me on to it. And yes it is hideously expensive, but yes it is also wonderful, at times. Some truly amazing flavours

    Then thank you @Richard_Nabavi

    And agree, Soho is back. Buzzing tonight
    We surely crossed paths!

    Let me know when you're next in "the 'Ho" and we can have a martini

    I just made that up. "The Ho". I like it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited October 15

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
    Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.

    Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.

    He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008 in the GFC.

    Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it did then given what has occurred since
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    Leon said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    You should thank Mister Nabavi, of this parish, who turned me on to it. And yes it is hideously expensive, but yes it is also wonderful, at times. Some truly amazing flavours

    It's a six minute walk from my apartment...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,482
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
    Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.

    Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.

    He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008.

    Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it does then given what has occurred since
    No.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
    History should not be kind, if only for how he let China off the hook post the massacres. Combine that with letting Saddam Hussein stay in power, and he’s looking not that great.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,606
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.
    Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.

    Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.

    He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008.

    Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it does then given what has occurred since
    He didn't avoid the collapse of the US economy - indeed the fourth quarter of 2008 was the peak "down" quarter.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
    History should not be kind, if only for how he let China off the hook post the massacres. Combine that with letting Saddam Hussein stay in power, and he’s looking not that great.

    Oh damn, wrong Bush…
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    Leon said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

    It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

    It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

    I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

    I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…
    You should thank Mister Nabavi, of this parish, who turned me on to it. And yes it is hideously expensive, but yes it is also wonderful, at times. Some truly amazing flavours

    Then thank you @Richard_Nabavi

    And agree, Soho is back. Buzzing tonight
    We surely crossed paths!

    Let me know when you're next in "the 'Ho" and we can have a martini

    I just made that up. "The Ho". I like it
    Perfect, shall do. You can show me the debauched places. I’ll pick up the tab.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
    For some weird reason my brain read that final initialism as DLT. Dave Lee Travis. AKA the "Hairy Cornflake"

    I was trying to work out why history might compare Barack Obama to a Radio 1 DJ from the 80s known as "the Hairy Cornflake", now slightly sullied by allegations connected to #MeToo but not entirely proven
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Leon said:

    Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

    The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

    https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

    Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

    If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.



    We don't know any of this.

    A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

    Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

    The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.
    I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

    In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.
    We're free to speculate now, of course.

    But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

    In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

    It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

    All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

    However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

    “Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
    Good quote. Who?
    George W Bush.
    Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris
    I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.
    History should not be kind, if only for how he let China off the hook post the massacres. Combine that with letting Saddam Hussein stay in power, and he’s looking not that great.

    That was GHW Bush who was actually less radical than Blair on foreign policy let alone his son
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,702
    HYUFD said:

    'The murder of Sir David Amess in #Essex earlier today has now been declared as a terrorist incident, and the Met's Counter Terrorism Command will lead the investigation.'

    https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1449150762332925952?s=20

    Calling @Cyclefree….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    HYUFD said:

    'The murder of Sir David Amess in #Essex earlier today has now been declared as a terrorist incident, and the Met's Counter Terrorism Command will lead the investigation.'

    https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1449150762332925952?s=20

    HYUFD, you were clearly right, and all your accusers were handbag clutching idiots. Ignore them
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