The big speech reaction – politicalbetting.com
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Apologies. I see that Benn has already been discussed.TimT said:
Benn was a good speaker for the Left too. Even better debater, even if I rarely agreed with any of his analysis or policy prescriptions.Leon said:
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. EeekHYUFD said:
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.Leon said:
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helpedNorthern_Al said:
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.Leon said:
Someone else that doesn't get itClippP said:
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.HYUFD said:Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too0 -
Mogg has a good dry sense of humour, and can laugh at himselfMexicanpete said:
OK, it must be me, a centrist woke w***** with no sense of humour.Leon said:
But you've got several non-Tories and Boris-dislikers on this very forum admitting that, even though they resent the politician, he can make them laugh. So you're simply wrong. It's not just "johnson fans" who see the jokeMexicanpete said:
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.Leon said:
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)Mexicanpete said:
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.rkrkrk said:
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.kinabalu said:
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.TOPPING said:Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
On the other hand I do find Mogg spontaneously witty.0 -
Rees-Mogg is outstanding. Not a prospective PM though (as such told so).Mexicanpete said:
OK, it must be me, a centrist woke w***** with no sense of humour.Leon said:
But you've got several non-Tories and Boris-dislikers on this very forum admitting that, even though they resent the politician, he can make them laugh. So you're simply wrong. It's not just "johnson fans" who see the jokeMexicanpete said:
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.Leon said:
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)Mexicanpete said:
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.rkrkrk said:
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.kinabalu said:
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.TOPPING said:Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
On the other hand I do find Mogg spontaneously witty.0 -
Kinnock was a great orator, spine tingling to watch in his prime. But too much of a gasbag when answering questions. By contrast, Blair couldn't deliver a speech too well but was intensely persuasive and fluent in more normal conversation. He refused to talk down to people and could communicate complex ideas simply. Like Bill Clinton in that regard (but not as good). Cameron was a bit like this but too glib and I thought struggled to look empathetic. Thatcher was a bad orator but very good at communicating ideas conversationally and also never talked down to the audience. Johnson is funnier than any of them (especially Thatcher who didn't understand jokes and couldn't deliver them when they were written for her) but can't communicate ideas except the most facile ones, and uses language and humour mostly to deflect questions, not answer them. I think he is fundamentally dishonest, but I certainly understand the argument that he is entertaining.Leon said:
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. EeekHYUFD said:
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.Leon said:
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helpedNorthern_Al said:
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.Leon said:
Someone else that doesn't get itClippP said:
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.HYUFD said:Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too5 -
So the Black Shorts wasn't even closer to the knuckle than we thought?IshmaelZ said:
Our own 79th Regiment of Foot fought in skirts throughout. Was the historian saying AH had bad ideas, or good ones he failed to implement?LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.1 -
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
0 -
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
0 -
143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
A lot of bad weather last week kept people indoors.Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=200 -
Cases by specimen data are down, again....Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=200 -
Seems a good summary...
Torsten Bell
@TorstenBell
·
3h
Conference season =
Tories: so confident Boris doesn't bother to have anything to say, partly inspired by...
Labour: attempts to dig themselves out of perpetual navel gazing via another week of... navel gazing0 -
As we head into winter..... hmmFoxy said:
A lot of bad weather last week kept people indoors.Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=200 -
Well, it kind of was. I would have bet on that Hitler quotation being a fabrication, but it seems to be genuine.Malmesbury said:
So the Black Shorts wasn't even closer to the knuckle than we thought?IshmaelZ said:
Our own 79th Regiment of Foot fought in skirts throughout. Was the historian saying AH had bad ideas, or good ones he failed to implement?LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Just imagine, in the year of the Wannsee Conference, being comfortable banging on about leather shorts.
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Ok, I think I see what you mean. Rather than corrupting us is he providing what we want? I guess if what you're looking for in politics is an enjoyable spectacle you'll likely prefer Boris Johnson to most other proponents of the craft.Nigelb said:
I gave that a like, even though it comes from a perspective unduly generous towards the judgement of the pubic before they are 'infantilised'.kinabalu said:
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.TOPPING said:Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
This is a bit closer to the reality:
https://chrishayes.org/articles/decision-makers/
In particular, WRT the appeal of Boris, this bit:
...Political junkies tend to assume that undecided voters are undecided because they don't care enough to make up their minds. But while I found that most undecided voters are, as one Kerry aide put it to The New York Times, "relatively low-information, relatively disengaged," the lack of engagement wasn't a sign that they didn't care. After all, if they truly didn't care, they wouldn't have been planning to vote. The undecided voters I talked to did care about politics, or at least judged it to be important; they just didn't enjoy politics...
Betting hat back on, I think he'll take a great deal of shifting. You can get 1.55 on Cons most seats at the next GE and that imo is spectacular. I'd put grannies and orphans into that.0 -
My daughter had Freshers week last week, after missing out last year. Was expecting a temporary surge as a result in the 18-24 age group.Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=20
Thinking I'll go and visit her in mid-November when it should have passed the worst.0 -
I’m more pessimistic than you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Yes, I think that Britain will survive whatever Johnson does to us. I just see his time in power as a huge missed opportunity, where we have all these terrible problems which he has no actual ideas about solving, so we will get all this empty rhetoric but nothing will really change. And of course I think Brexit is a mistake, and hold him responsible, but it's not the end of the world. Whereas I genuinely think there is a decent chance that America wouldn't survive as a liberal democracy if Trump got hold of power again.kle4 said:
I know others will disagree but I think that's key - Boris may be crap, but hes not dangerous. Hes much more establishment.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Trump is exactly the same phenomenon. Worse though, because his vision is far darker than Johnson's. I view Johnson as a threat to good government. Trump is a threat to democracy itself.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, 'the praetorian guard of Leave voters' nails it. The Brexit wars were massively divisive with no one prepared to surrender an inch. Boris - in what was probably the greatest act of political shrewdness of the modern age - moulded himself into the very embodiment of Brexit. 52% of the country now cannot find flaws in Boris without finding flaws in their own judgment and intelligence. Boris is literally a kind of political god. I don't think the western world has seen anything like it.Leon said:
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)Stuartinromford said:
And that's the point.Leon said:
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detailkle4 said:Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
The financial crisis really screwed the U.K.
The Coalition did a good job steadying the ship, but they were too aggressive on austerity, and QE (and some deliberate policy) further inflated housing into the stratosphere.
On top of that unsteady equilibrium, Brexit has proved to be a major cultural and economic rupture, and has put permanent sandbags on the economy.
Boris talks about improving living standards, but he is busy raising taxes, stoking inflation, and impeding business productivity.
We now face the massive supply shock of the Covid hangover, and the government’s policy is to make it worse, not better.
I expect the U.K. to be the “sick man” of the OECD until we have a government with something approaching a serious plan for growth.2 -
39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there0 -
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
It was cited by way of explanation for the Germans being unprepared for the entirely predictable Russian winter. One of the occasions when his ideology conflicted with more rational steps that would have helped Germany win.IshmaelZ said:
Our own 79th Regiment of Foot fought in skirts throughout. Was the historian saying AH had bad ideas, or good ones he failed to implement?LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.1 -
He can be funny generally but not ticke everyone's funny bone. Some of his schtick works, some doesn't. I recall a John Oliver bit about the awkward feeling when Trump does something genuinely funny that makes him laugh, despite hating him so much - though in that case sometimes it is Trump intentionally joking, as when he mocked Rubio's sweating, and other times it is just when he does something really weird that is funny intentionally.Mexicanpete said:
OK, it must be me, a centrist woke w***** with no sense of humour.Leon said:
But you've got several non-Tories and Boris-dislikers on this very forum admitting that, even though they resent the politician, he can make them laugh. So you're simply wrong. It's not just "johnson fans" who see the jokeMexicanpete said:
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.Leon said:
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)Mexicanpete said:
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.rkrkrk said:
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.kinabalu said:
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.TOPPING said:Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
On the other hand I do find Mogg spontaneously witty.1 -
Those that wear, or those who deem ?kle4 said:
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
Yes, indeed. Good questionTimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
+328 deaths in Romania today (equivalent of 1k in the UK). It looks like the Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates will have a terrible winter.0
-
That's the other thing with Johnson, if you've read PG Wodehouse you know that the source material is so much better.Malmesbury said:
So the Black Shorts wasn't even closer to the knuckle than we thought?IshmaelZ said:
Our own 79th Regiment of Foot fought in skirts throughout. Was the historian saying AH had bad ideas, or good ones he failed to implement?LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.1 -
Reading through the thread a myriad of comments about Boris - many bemused about his appeal, some irritated that he's a toff, several detecting change in the public mood [ though not yet reflected in the polls apparently]. Seems overall as if the conference has done its job. Opponents no nearer understanding either him or his appeal - and flailing around with the usual snide remarks, belittling his supporters, waiting for the polls to turn, maybe hoping just a little for catatrophes ahead to derail the government.
All in all a good result. Let's see what the future will bring..1 -
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.0 -
And 929 in Russia (their highest yet? Officially?) and Ukraine also worsening, sharplywilliamglenn said:+328 deaths in Romania today (equivalent of 1k in the UK). It looks like the Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates will have a terrible winter.
Hurry up with the bloody boosters, Boris0 -
Fear not. I bet Hitler couldn't knit for toffee.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
On which point I will confess something shameful to you. For a long time, and because of that, you talking about knitting a lot, I thought you were a woman.0 -
Both.Nigelb said:
Those that wear, or those who deem ?kle4 said:
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Of course being serious no one thinks it is suspicious, but people wearing shorts is seen as irregular to a degree. It makes me reflect on what we will all wear as we age. In my head old people dress a certain way, but there's no reason for casual wear that I should change my clothing habits from age 30-80, so we surely will see a lot more elderly people in hoodies etc.0 -
This is Andrew Roberts, I take it? I don't think it is a very strong point, given the prevalence of lederhosen/ kilts year round in notably cold highland areas. I'd invade Russia in good quality lederhosen provided the rest of my clothing was up to scratch.LostPassword said:
It was cited by way of explanation for the Germans being unprepared for the entirely predictable Russian winter. One of the occasions when his ideology conflicted with more rational steps that would have helped Germany win.IshmaelZ said:
Our own 79th Regiment of Foot fought in skirts throughout. Was the historian saying AH had bad ideas, or good ones he failed to implement?LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?0 -
And then the question is- how bad do things have to get for the public to want a government with such a plan?Gardenwalker said:
I’m more pessimistic than you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Yes, I think that Britain will survive whatever Johnson does to us. I just see his time in power as a huge missed opportunity, where we have all these terrible problems which he has no actual ideas about solving, so we will get all this empty rhetoric but nothing will really change. And of course I think Brexit is a mistake, and hold him responsible, but it's not the end of the world. Whereas I genuinely think there is a decent chance that America wouldn't survive as a liberal democracy if Trump got hold of power again.kle4 said:
I know others will disagree but I think that's key - Boris may be crap, but hes not dangerous. Hes much more establishment.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Trump is exactly the same phenomenon. Worse though, because his vision is far darker than Johnson's. I view Johnson as a threat to good government. Trump is a threat to democracy itself.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, 'the praetorian guard of Leave voters' nails it. The Brexit wars were massively divisive with no one prepared to surrender an inch. Boris - in what was probably the greatest act of political shrewdness of the modern age - moulded himself into the very embodiment of Brexit. 52% of the country now cannot find flaws in Boris without finding flaws in their own judgment and intelligence. Boris is literally a kind of political god. I don't think the western world has seen anything like it.Leon said:
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)Stuartinromford said:
And that's the point.Leon said:
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detailkle4 said:Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
The financial crisis really screwed the U.K.
The Coalition did a good job steadying the ship, but they were too aggressive on austerity, and QE (and some deliberate policy) further inflated housing into the stratosphere.
On top of that unsteady equilibrium, Brexit has proved to be a major cultural and economic rupture, and has put permanent sandbags on the economy.
Boris talks about improving living standards, but he is busy raising taxes, stoking inflation, and impeding business productivity.
We now face the massive supply shock of the Covid hangover, and the government’s policy is to make it worse, not better.
I expect the U.K. to be the “sick man” of the OECD until we have a government with something approaching a serious plan for growth.0 -
There were figures released a few weeks ago that had the breakdown as only 2% fully vaccinated (if I remember correctly). Given the relative sizes of the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations it suggests that most deaths are dying of Covid, but to all intents and purposes only those refusing, or unable, to be vaccinated.TimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Yes, I see a fair number of men of a certain age who wear shorts whatever the weather. Usually saggy cargo shorts with full side pockets. It isn't a flattering look.kle4 said:
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
It often comes up when people talk about people being 'good' at making speeches, and various speakers who are popular and entertaining downgraded for various reasons to do with oratorical skill or whatever, but at the end of the day what counts is if people listen to them, and take something away from it, and there are various ways of achieving that.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Kinnock was a great orator, spine tingling to watch in his prime. But too much of a gasbag when answering questions. By contrast, Blair couldn't deliver a speech too well but was intensely persuasive and fluent in more normal conversation. He refused to talk down to people and could communicate complex ideas simply. Like Bill Clinton in that regard (but not as good). Cameron was a bit like this but too glib and I thought struggled to look empathetic. Thatcher was a bad orator but very good at communicating ideas conversationally and also never talked down to the audience. Johnson is funnier than any of them (especially Thatcher who didn't understand jokes and couldn't deliver them when they were written for her) but can't communicate ideas except the most facile ones, and uses language and humour mostly to deflect questions, not answer them. I think he is fundamentally dishonest, but I certainly understand the argument that he is entertaining.Leon said:
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. EeekHYUFD said:
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.Leon said:
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helpedNorthern_Al said:
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.Leon said:
Someone else that doesn't get itClippP said:
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.HYUFD said:Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too1 -
And age? And co-morbidity?LostPassword said:
There were figures released a few weeks ago that had the breakdown as only 2% fully vaccinated (if I remember correctly). Given the relative sizes of the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations it suggests that most deaths are dying of Covid, but to all intents and purposes only those refusing, or unable, to be vaccinated.TimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
There's an odd lack of such data (or I can't easily find it, anyhow)0 -
Meanwhile, some US public health officials are leery of the emphasis on boostersLeon said:
And 929 in Russia (their highest yet? Officially?) and Ukraine also worsening, sharplywilliamglenn said:+328 deaths in Romania today (equivalent of 1k in the UK). It looks like the Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates will have a terrible winter.
Hurry up with the bloody boosters, Boris
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/06/biden-covid-experts-boosters-5151750 -
Is that the first time the Guardian have ever approvingly quoted Mark Littlewood from the IEA?Carnyx said:
Interesting analysis, from the GRaun feed, thatgealbhan said:
Totally agree. A sea change in British Politics is happening right now.Gardenwalker said:What I will say, though, is that it feels like the mood is shifting.
It’s not visible in the polls, but it is among Tory opinion formers.
The press is starting to look a bit hostile.
The Mail is printing anti-Boris articles, the Telegraph and the Spectator are starting to give space to hostile pieces.
Some of the Tories I follow on Twitter are starting to ask themselves what the hell is going on. There are beyond the limits to the ideological flexibility being required of them.
Labours conference last week when they made clear they will aggressively pitch for the Lexits and those put off by Corbynism.
And this week, a Tory conference big on bluster of better just around the corner, very short on policy that convinces it will be better. Very short on policy that convinces or unconvincing in fact. The Tories are now lost.
The Tories have never been as purely liaises faire as Philip Thompson - maybe in mid eighties when Maggie did a U Turn on monetarism and they just liberalised markets instead, but handful of years later deputy Prime Minister Hestletine is promising intervention before breakfast, tiffin and dinner.
"In some respects Boris Johnson was presenting himself as the heir to Margaret Thatcher in his conference speech, as he claimed to have the “guts” to address problems bedevilling the British economy for decades (see 9.17am), but rightwing Thatcherites in thinktanks and campaign groups have been among the strongest critics of the speech.
Mark Littlewood, who runs the Institute of Economic Affairs, accused Johnson of just offering “more state intervention and spending”. He said:
'The prime minister says he wants a high wage economy. That requires gains in productivity, which we would see if the government started deregulating rather than over-regulating.
He says he wants a low tax economy, but his government is likely to oversee the highest burden of tax since the Attlee post-war socialist government.
Unnecessarily restricting the supply of labour may lead to wage increases, but these will be passed on in price increases. A strategy to make things more expensive will not create a genuinely high wage economy, merely the illusion of one.
Boris Johnson’s rhetoric is always optimistic and enterprising, but insofar as there were actual policies behind it, they seemed to involve yet more state intervention and spending.'
The Adam Smith Institute, another free market thinktank, said that Johnson’s speech was “vacuous and economically illiterate”, that it set out “an agenda for levelling down”, and that the PM’s policies were inflationary.."
The TaxPayers’ Alliance and CBI also unhappy.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/oct/06/boris-johnson-tory-conference-speech-economic-model-universal-credit-latest-updates-politics-live0 -
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.0 -
Dunno. But given the structure of British voting demography, it could be a v long time.Stuartinromford said:
And then the question is- how bad do things have to get for the public to want a government with such a plan?Gardenwalker said:
I’m more pessimistic than you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Yes, I think that Britain will survive whatever Johnson does to us. I just see his time in power as a huge missed opportunity, where we have all these terrible problems which he has no actual ideas about solving, so we will get all this empty rhetoric but nothing will really change. And of course I think Brexit is a mistake, and hold him responsible, but it's not the end of the world. Whereas I genuinely think there is a decent chance that America wouldn't survive as a liberal democracy if Trump got hold of power again.kle4 said:
I know others will disagree but I think that's key - Boris may be crap, but hes not dangerous. Hes much more establishment.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Trump is exactly the same phenomenon. Worse though, because his vision is far darker than Johnson's. I view Johnson as a threat to good government. Trump is a threat to democracy itself.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, 'the praetorian guard of Leave voters' nails it. The Brexit wars were massively divisive with no one prepared to surrender an inch. Boris - in what was probably the greatest act of political shrewdness of the modern age - moulded himself into the very embodiment of Brexit. 52% of the country now cannot find flaws in Boris without finding flaws in their own judgment and intelligence. Boris is literally a kind of political god. I don't think the western world has seen anything like it.Leon said:
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)Stuartinromford said:
And that's the point.Leon said:
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detailkle4 said:Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
The financial crisis really screwed the U.K.
The Coalition did a good job steadying the ship, but they were too aggressive on austerity, and QE (and some deliberate policy) further inflated housing into the stratosphere.
On top of that unsteady equilibrium, Brexit has proved to be a major cultural and economic rupture, and has put permanent sandbags on the economy.
Boris talks about improving living standards, but he is busy raising taxes, stoking inflation, and impeding business productivity.
We now face the massive supply shock of the Covid hangover, and the government’s policy is to make it worse, not better.
I expect the U.K. to be the “sick man” of the OECD until we have a government with something approaching a serious plan for growth.0 -
BTW, an American reminded me that the proper spelling of 'booster' in British English is 'Borchestershire'.TimT said:
Meanwhile, some US public health officials are leery of the emphasis on boostersLeon said:
And 929 in Russia (their highest yet? Officially?) and Ukraine also worsening, sharplywilliamglenn said:+328 deaths in Romania today (equivalent of 1k in the UK). It looks like the Eastern European countries with low vaccination rates will have a terrible winter.
Hurry up with the bloody boosters, Boris
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/06/biden-covid-experts-boosters-5151754 -
It means the Uni's have gone back.Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=200 -
True, but should we not celebrate that people are comfortable with themselves and how they look, rather than caring about how they present to others?Foxy said:
Yes, I see a fair number of men of a certain age who wear shorts whatever the weather. Usually saggy cargo shorts with full side pockets. It isn't a flattering look.kle4 said:
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.1 -
ONS has data.Leon said:
Yes, indeed. Good questionTimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/
Almost all deaths are age 60+ at moment.0 -
A bit longer with the masks. A bit more active pushing of "It's summer. Enjoy yourself outside".Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?
But mainly being proactive at getting the holdouts and youngsters vaccinated. Send teams of jabbers door-to-door to persuade people.0 -
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?0 -
Not being the sort of guy who shares pictures of his erect member with strangers on the internet it does create some doubt as to my gender and, since I have no reason to be offended, you should have no reason to feel ashamed.kinabalu said:
Fear not. I bet Hitler couldn't knit for toffee.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
On which point I will confess something shameful to you. For a long time, and because of that, you talking about knitting a lot, I thought you were a woman.1 -
It would also be interesting to know the average age of COVID deaths by vaccination status. The ONS give us the age split for all COVID deaths:TimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age
Age \ Week ending: 12-Feb, 24-Sep
Under 1 year: 0%, 0%
1 to 14: 0%, 0%
15 to 24: 0%, 0%
25 to 44: 1%, 4%
45 to 54: 3%, 5%
55 to 64: 8%, 13%
65 to 74: 16%, 17%
75 to 84: 29%, 31%
85+: 42%, 29%
We can clearly see the effect of the vaccine with under 64s making up 22% of deaths in the most recent week of data compared with 12% back in February.1 -
Yes, very weird circles. I have never heard anyone say patriarchy.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
CR is truly the Wokefinder General with his uncanny divining skills.0 -
For England at least you can see over 60 vs under 60 and its pretty stark.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=nation&areaName=England0 -
Looks like its the parents...
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
8m
Replying to
@andrew_lilico
Seems like a key driver might be Peak-Lifers. So if there's a genuine effect here it might be some modest additional spillover, arriving with a lag. Let's see if that Green line passes its early September peak before we start thinking it's important, eh?0 -
I'm on a bus. A group of acne-ridden 17 and 18-year old lads behind me. Chains around necks and England football team haircuts.
I can confirm lads are the same they've ever been. Bragging to each other and taking the piss out of each other for failings with girls. Lots of swearing. And talking about how fit girls are, and how small their mates penises are.
They talk to each other in this sort of Jafaican patois as well, but I'm not sure that's new either.0 -
I'd never wear shorts in a professional capacity - you just feel better when smartly dressed. But I do tend to live in shorts in my free time.Foxy said:
Yes, I see a fair number of men of a certain age who wear shorts whatever the weather. Usually saggy cargo shorts with full side pockets. It isn't a flattering look.kle4 said:
Year round short wearers are deemed suspicious somehow, I know a few of that type.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.0 -
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Of course the thing about McCarthy is that he was right. There really were reds under all sorts of beds.Foxy said:
Yes, very weird circles. I have never heard anyone say patriarchy.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
CR is truly the Wokefinder General with his uncanny divining skills.
But being right isn’t enough. McCarthy was a bully, a creep, and a demagogue.0 -
The answers should be easily available. They are not. FrustratingAndy_JS said:
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Also need to accept that most cases are currently in the school age kids and that the latest 'bounce' will probably be due to Universities being back in full swing. We are in week 1 at Bath, after freshers week last week.Stuartinromford said:
A bit longer with the masks. A bit more active pushing of "It's summer. Enjoy yourself outside".Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?
But mainly being proactive at getting the holdouts and youngsters vaccinated. Send teams of jabbers door-to-door to persuade people.0 -
The Boots incident sounds a bit more pavilion end than patriarchal, though. Strange.Foxy said:
Yes, very weird circles. I have never heard anyone say patriarchy.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
CR is truly the Wokefinder General with his uncanny divining skills.0 -
I have no idea. Funnily enough I look and act totally normally in real life. I don't show every young woman my posting history on pb.comGardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?
I note that @Leon 's wife (or ex wife?) used to say this a lot too so I'm interested in his views.
He is strangely silent.0 -
Exfoliating face wash is a bit woke isn't it? Real men don't moisturise.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.1 -
We do nothing, except vaccinate more people.Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?0 -
The basic maths doesn't point to that.Andy_JS said:
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Talking of knitting they do a "Stitch and Bitch "session for women at my local pub which makes me chucklekinabalu said:
Fear not. I bet Hitler couldn't knit for toffee.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
On which point I will confess something shameful to you. For a long time, and because of that, you talking about knitting a lot, I thought you were a woman.1 -
WTF is a peak-lifer?rottenborough said:Looks like its the parents...
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
8m
Replying to
@andrew_lilico
Seems like a key driver might be Peak-Lifers. So if there's a genuine effect here it might be some modest additional spillover, arriving with a lag. Let's see if that Green line passes its early September peak before we start thinking it's important, eh?0 -
No, no. The exfoliating mouthwash.Farooq said:
It's his shorts.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?0 -
I've spoken to several people in last couple of weeks who aren't prepared to do lockdown again.Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?
I'm not doing it. If they shut the pubs and cafes I will have people around to the house. Everyone I know is double vaxxed and will probably get their booster.
So, if the CMO is starting to think in that direction the government may have a problem on its hands.0 -
Yeah. My hypothesis is that the deaths comprise largely of two groups: the unvaccinated dying of COVID, regardless of age, and primarily older, vaccinated people dying with COVID. But that is just conjecture, based on theory, not empirical data, and I find it hard to use the data from the ONS site to address the question properly.tlg86 said:
It would also be interesting to know the average age of COVID deaths by vaccination status. The ONS give us the age split for all COVID deaths:TimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age
Age \ Week ending: 12-Feb, 24-Sep
Under 1 year: 0%, 0%
1 to 14: 0%, 0%
15 to 24: 0%, 0%
25 to 44: 1%, 4%
45 to 54: 3%, 5%
55 to 64: 8%, 13%
65 to 74: 16%, 17%
75 to 84: 29%, 31%
85+: 42%, 29%
We can clearly see the effect of the vaccine with under 64s making up 22% of deaths in the most recent week of data compared with 12% back in February.0 -
I think you are confusing Leon with a previous poster.Casino_Royale said:
I have no idea. Funnily enough I look and act totally normally in real life. I don't show every young woman my posting history on pb.comGardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?
I note that @Leon 's wife (or ex wife?) used to say this a lot too so I'm interested in his views.
He is strangely silent.
I don’t know about patriarchy but all “young people” are decidedly more likely to be very left wing than they were “in my day”.
But that’s a natural response to the existing capitalist set up.0 -
I fear we are seeing the effects of the vaccine wearing off.rottenborough said:
ONS has data.Leon said:
Yes, indeed. Good questionTimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/
Almost all deaths are age 60+ at moment.
Get those boosters people.0 -
As another male knitter, there is an odd prejudice out there. I have won prizes for my knitting at local shows, and design my own garments. My wife is a recipient of many fine jumpers.LostPassword said:
Not being the sort of guy who shares pictures of his erect member with strangers on the internet it does create some doubt as to my gender and, since I have no reason to be offended, you should have no reason to feel ashamed.kinabalu said:
Fear not. I bet Hitler couldn't knit for toffee.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
On which point I will confess something shameful to you. For a long time, and because of that, you talking about knitting a lot, I thought you were a woman.
In one of my books is a lighthouse keeper who knitted his own ganseys all his life (a gansey is a traditional knitted jumper worn by fisherman around the UK and in the Netherlands). Historically, before framework knitting, men would be knitters in a profession.2 -
As a Peak-Lifer, I'm liking the term 'peak life'rottenborough said:Looks like its the parents...
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
8m
Replying to
@andrew_lilico
Seems like a key driver might be Peak-Lifers. So if there's a genuine effect here it might be some modest additional spillover, arriving with a lag. Let's see if that Green line passes its early September peak before we start thinking it's important, eh?
Isn't that what we used to call 'middle aged' (maybe with a later start around 40?) 0 -
In the 1950s so did pretty much everyone, everywhere. esp. here.Farooq said:
McCarthy didn't just go after "reds". He went after homosexuals. A pretty awful time in American history.Gardenwalker said:
Of course the thing about McCarthy is that he was right. There really were reds under all sorts of beds.Foxy said:
Yes, very weird circles. I have never heard anyone say patriarchy.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
CR is truly the Wokefinder General with his uncanny divining skills.
But being right isn’t enough. McCarthy was a bully, a creep, and a demagogue.0 -
UK case by specimen date
0 -
UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K
0 -
I can't imagine fancying a woman who doesn't want to smash the patriarchy.Casino_Royale said:
I have no idea. Funnily enough I look and act totally normally in real life. I don't show every young woman my posting history on pb.comGardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?
I note that @Leon 's wife (or ex wife?) used to say this a lot too so I'm interested in his views.
He is strangely silent.5 -
UK local R
0 -
Ok, even I laughed at that one!OnlyLivingBoy said:
Exfoliating face wash is a bit woke isn't it? Real men don't moisturise.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.1 -
No evidence that the CMO is thinking of lockdowns. We are currently increasing the percentage of people with antibodies by the method of infection. Bit harsh on the kids who should be vaccinated (thanks JCVI) but fair for the vaccine refusniks.rottenborough said:
I've spoken to several people in last couple of weeks who aren't prepared to do lockdown again.Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?
I'm not doing it. If they shut the pubs and cafes I will have people around to the house. Everyone I know is double vaxxed and will probably get their booster.
So, if the CMO is starting to think in that direction the government may have a problem on its hands.1 -
All bullshit and no beef.1
-
UK case summary
0 -
I liked Cameron as PM but the recent lobbying revelations have caused me to move him down a whole drawer. He's not in the bottom drawer with Trump and ilk nor even the 2nd bottom one (where Farage and Johnson live) but he's now in the middle one. Farage, btw, used to be in the middle one (since despite his politics I found him engaging and sincere) but his craven Trumpery in recent times led to him being demoted to the drawer he's in now - the 2nd bottom one with Johnson. Most of the current cabinet are in there too.noneoftheabove said:
I suspect you will find those with similar views which held Cameron in higher esteem than Johnson were formed 5-10 years before the referendum. Perhaps made stronger because of their roles in Brexit, but (mostly) not formed because of it.isam said:...
"Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary"Stuartinromford said:
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?TimS said:
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.PJH said:
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.Leon said:
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethePJH said:
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.kinabalu said:
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.TOPPING said:Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Or perhaps because he was Head of the Remain campaign!2 -
Ooh, been a while since I saw that one! Dan Hannan is a seriously good public speaker, and the European Parliament debate rules, that let you speak uninterrupted for (in this debate) three minutes, play into those strengths.Leon said:Cat::Pigeons
The most articulate public speaker in UK politics in the last 15 years is Daniel Hannan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs
In 3 minutes he tears Gordon Brown apart, eloquently, literately, and without a single pause or stumble, much better than any Tory in the Commons
After him maybe Alex Salmond?0 -
Most of these infections are manifesting themselves as nothing worse than a cold. Either because they're in kids or in people who are vaxxed.LostPassword said:
We do nothing, except vaccinate more people.Leon said:
By intervene you mean lockdown?Stuartinromford said:
The good news is that 15% a week growth (if that's what it is) is a doubling time of 5 weeks- plenty of time to intervene. It's not the doubling in 3 days we had last spring.Leon said:39,851 cases
141 deaths
It is still out there
The bad news is that 1 doubling still takes us to 80k cases and over 250 deaths.
We could have got the numbers a lot lower over the summer by being a bit more patient.
I just can't hack another winter of lockdown. Nor can many people I know. We've discussed it. Just wouldn't do it
Then what else?
We do not need 'interventions' to stop a cold going around.0 -
UK hospitals
0 -
Don't assume its vaccine wearing off. Older people are generally more frail, and even with the vaccine, some will die. The vaccines were never 100%. I think the boosters will help, but older folk dying after being vaccinated does not mean the vaccine effect is wearing down.TheScreamingEagles said:
I fear we are seeing the effects of the vaccine wearing off.rottenborough said:
ONS has data.Leon said:
Yes, indeed. Good questionTimT said:
And is it predominantly 'dying with' or 'dying of'?Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/
Almost all deaths are age 60+ at moment.
Get those boosters people.0 -
UK deaths
0 -
It used to be a peculiar matter of patriotic pride that many of McCarthy’s victims fled to Britain where we seemed to care less about leftist leanings.Farooq said:
McCarthy didn't just go after "reds". He went after homosexuals. A pretty awful time in American history.Gardenwalker said:
Of course the thing about McCarthy is that he was right. There really were reds under all sorts of beds.Foxy said:
Yes, very weird circles. I have never heard anyone say patriarchy.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
CR is truly the Wokefinder General with his uncanny divining skills.
But being right isn’t enough. McCarthy was a bully, a creep, and a demagogue.
Nowadays of course Patel would have them extraordinarily renditioned to a remote Atlantic outpost, allowing Johnson to make off-colour jokes about “Tristan de Cunha” at the Tory Party conference.0 -
We know why they won't explain it.Leon said:
The answers should be easily available. They are not. FrustratingAndy_JS said:
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Well, it's certainly true that it's harder for them than it was for me.Gardenwalker said:
I think you are confusing Leon with a previous poster.Casino_Royale said:
I have no idea. Funnily enough I look and act totally normally in real life. I don't show every young woman my posting history on pb.comGardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?
I note that @Leon 's wife (or ex wife?) used to say this a lot too so I'm interested in his views.
He is strangely silent.
I don’t know about patriarchy but all “young people” are decidedly more likely to be very left wing than they were “in my day”.
But that’s a natural response to the existing capitalist set up.
It's also possible that they use hyperbolic language "normally" now to communicate in a way I simply don't understand or recognise, and it's not as significant as I think it is because I take the words used at face value.1 -
Age related data
0 -
The last confirmed rise in cases by sample date week on week is 27/9 being higher than 20/9, which has been the case for a few days, though the falls are settling as slight. Still think we're merely at a col with cases (and hospitalisations) before continuing upwards, and have at least 2-3 weeks of rises from university returns and the more gradual build up primary school cases in particular. But the longer we go, the weaker the coming case surge is likely to be, and the more October half term will gain us.Leon said:Unpleasantly sharp rise in cases. Let's hope it's anomalous
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=20
I think the 7 day average case rates will saw tooth quite a bit yet, as different factors come into play (Xmas parties, returns to work, the move indoors), but those mini surges will be on a decaying, downward overall trend between October and Christmas, and though the New Year saw tooth will trend back up weakly, it will not be too long before dipping down again.
I've said I would have gone for a national two week October half term which I'd have announced in August and I would have had more of a plan B to bring to bear on restrictions if needed. I've not changed my view on that, such a modest advanced notice restriction would have better ensured a good position in the run up to Christmas even if we might yet get away without it and it now looks like plan B would have sat untouched.0 -
My first knitting book was called "Stitch and Bitch". It introduced me to the concept of people being "knit-worthy".state_go_away said:
Talking of knitting they do a "Stitch and Bitch "session for women at my local pub which makes me chucklekinabalu said:
Fear not. I bet Hitler couldn't knit for toffee.LostPassword said:
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.Leon said:If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
On which point I will confess something shameful to you. For a long time, and because of that, you talking about knitting a lot, I thought you were a woman.1 -
In any group of 38,000 people, unfortunately some of them will die within the next 28 days. Many simply fall into that category.Andy_JS said:
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?0 -
Age related data scaled to 100K
0 -
We do?! Why is it?Andy_JS said:
We know why they won't explain it.Leon said:
The answers should be easily available. They are not. FrustratingAndy_JS said:
They're not dying of Covid-19. They're dying with it. And we have no idea what that actually means.Leon said:143 deaths today. Still quite a few people dying every day
Who are they? Has anyone broken down the death stats? Is it the elderly, the co-morbid, or are young healthy people also succumbing? And how many are vaxed?
Sincere question0 -
I wouldn't inflict my legs on anyone.Farooq said:
It's his shorts.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe you are making it up.Casino_Royale said:
I got it thrown at my yesterday for asking about exfoliating facewash in Boots.Gardenwalker said:
You do seem to run into these people.Casino_Royale said:
Nah. They say it almost reflexively (unthinkingly) like please and thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Same reason you keep on banging on about the woke so often.Casino_Royale said:Why do so many young women under the age of 30 say "patriarchy" so much?
It is important to them.
It's odd.
A bit like McCarthy and the Communists.
I'm not making this up.
Is there something in your appearance or demeanour that seems to trigger young women, do you think?0
This discussion has been closed.