Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I gave that a like, even though it comes from a perspective unduly generous towards the judgement of the pubic before they are 'infantilised'.
In particular, WRT the appeal of Boris, this bit: ...Political junkies tend to assume that undecided voters are undecided because they don't care enough to make up their minds. But while I found that most undecided voters are, as one Kerry aide put it to The New York Times, "relatively low-information, relatively disengaged," the lack of engagement wasn't a sign that they didn't care. After all, if they truly didn't care, they wouldn't have been planning to vote. The undecided voters I talked to did care about politics, or at least judged it to be important; they just didn't enjoy politics...
You're all myopic. Boris has a genuine skill beyond the jokes
Look at this quite compelling video from the 2019 election, when Boris visited a Golders Green bakery full of Jewish voters. They REALLY like him. Of course they want him to save them from the awful anti-Semite Corbyn, but it goes beyond that.
And these are British Jews, detached from the English class system, these are not plebs "stupidly" admiring some Etonian fool.
He has a rare political gift. Many have tried to define it over centuries, charm, charisma, whatever, and no one has truly succeeded. But he has it. And it is what makes him so hard to beat in elections
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
What I find surprising is why the elderly find him attractive..
The harrumphing sort, who rightly considered Corbyn a scruff, seem to think it HILARIOUS when Boris turns up looking like a drunken tramp to the laying of the wreath at the cenotaph.
I get that apolitical types think Boris is a laff. I don’t get why elderly people fawn on him.
Or maybe they don’t - see ConHome ratings.
Posh bloke drives a 15 year old VW Golf, classy Working class bloke can only afford a 15 year old VW Golf, wanky
I remember a friend of mine at the LIFFE market getting a cheese grater to scuff his new shirts so they'd look like those the old spoons wore
Though Corbyn is hardly working class. No one would describe him as a bit of a card, though.
Sorry I hadn't meant it to read like Corbyn was the working class bloke, just a general point about who can get away with what
Rich, but dishevelled is cool. Dishevelled, and nothing you can do about it, isn't
Thanks, but I'm not much the wiser. A bit like giving someone from the 1500s a guide to the differences between economy, business and first class when they have no idea what an aeroplane is.
I think I'll assume that it is possible some Met Police officers behaved like shits and await further developments. Seems a good starting point.
Tinder/Grindr you really can't understand/explain until you've used it for a bit.
It really is an eye opener.
Hmmm, maybe I should sign up and explain to my other half that it's purely for research purposes so I can better understand the latest allegations against the Met?
Edit: And thanks to all who have tried to explain - I get it well enough now, I think, including how you could effectively target someone with enough information.
Do it, also sell it as educating yourselves about catfishing.
Catfishing is one of the biggest ways fraudsters operate.
I think most of you know which industry I work in and catfishing is something that occupies more and more of our teams.
Brexit is a giant cat-fishing operation when you think about it.
But the Brexit voter, having boasted to all his mates that he’s pulled a busty blonde model, is now so fully invested he’s got not choice but to lie back and think of Britain while he’s pegged by a leprous, one-armed joiner called Gary.
I'm sure all those voters who are now getting real terms pay rises for the first time in a quarter of a century and have full employment are the ones lying to themselves, yes.
Your delusions are getting more and more divorced from reality.
“All those voters”.
We haven’t seen any statistical data around real wage rises yet. Per the last update from the ONS, there weren’t any.
I’d wait for the data before you get too carried away.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
Er, you actually said THIS:
"Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types"
Still, if you think your Borisophobia has nothing to do with class, fair enough
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
Make your mind up!
She has a sense of humour. The only well known Labour politician I can think of who has anything approaching one. I would love her to lead the party but then I'm not a Labour member or voter. The next party leadership contest I'll get to vote on will be Daisy Cooper vs Layla Moran.
My mind is made up! I think she is a great bet for next Labour leader, because she has a kind of Reality tv show charisma, wears chavvy clothing, and is "gobby" - it is mostly fake and overplayed to the gallery, but so what?
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
Part of it is simply most people aren't that interested in politics and especially the detail of it. If someone comes along and says "I've got this, things will be great with me" they can switch off and enjoy music, food, football, holidays etc instead. "Boris" is the easy option.
Perhaps you're right. Personally I would like to see at least a bit of evidence, Maybe having "done Brexit" is enough, without enquiring any closer. Oh well.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
No it's not.
I do not have anything like the same disregard for say JRM or Cameron as I do for Johnson. So your class argument is an absolute crock
It is Johnson's behaviour both politically and personally that gets my back up.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
No it's not.
I do not have anything like the same disregard for say JRM or Cameron as I do for Johnson. So your class argument is an absolute crock
It is Johnson's behaviour both politically and personally that gets my back up.
"Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types"
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
I'd still be out and about, just do lateral flow tests every couple of days.
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
Make your mind up!
She has a sense of humour. The only well known Labour politician I can think of who has anything approaching one. I would love her to lead the party but then I'm not a Labour member or voter. The next party leadership contest I'll get to vote on will be Daisy Cooper vs Layla Moran.
What I will say, though, is that it feels like the mood is shifting.
It’s not visible in the polls, but it is among Tory opinion formers.
The press is starting to look a bit hostile. The Mail is printing anti-Boris articles, the Telegraph and the Spectator are starting to give space to hostile pieces.
Some of the Tories I follow on Twitter are starting to ask themselves what the hell is going on. There are beyond the limits to the ideological flexibility being required of them.
Totally agree. A sea change in British Politics is happening right now.
Labours conference last week when they made clear they will aggressively pitch for the Lexits and those put off by Corbynism.
And this week, a Tory conference big on bluster of better just around the corner, very short on policy that convinces it will be better. Very short on policy that convinces or unconvincing in fact. The Tories are now lost.
The Tories have never been as purely liaises faire as Philip Thompson - maybe in mid eighties when Maggie did a U Turn on monetarism and they just liberalised markets instead, but handful of years later deputy Prime Minister Hestletine is promising intervention before breakfast, tiffin and dinner.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
No it's not.
I do not have anything like the same disregard for say JRM or Cameron as I do for Johnson. So your class argument is an absolute crock
It is Johnson's behaviour both politically and personally that gets my back up.
"Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types"
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
Personally, I find myself smiling and sometimes even chuckling when Boris does his routine despite being horrified at what he is doing to the country.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
I believe until you get a positive test of some description you can roam free. If you get a positive LFT then you need to stay home (except to get tested) whilst the PCR result comes through. If negative then you are free to roam again but if positive you are then locked down for 10 days. Of course, the easy way to ensure you don't have to go into isolation is not to take a test. However, if you have symptoms you are definitely meant to get a PCR test but no clue if that is legally enforceable!
If you are going around the streets coughing and sneezing then I'm sure the reaction of others is fairly predictable.
I only detected my Covid last week because I took a LFT with a slight headache which showed a really thin line that I then got confirmed by PCR. If I hadn't done the LFT then I probably would have only gone for a PCR the next day when more flu-like symptoms appeared.
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
Make your mind up!
She has a sense of humour. The only well known Labour politician I can think of who has anything approaching one. I would love her to lead the party but then I'm not a Labour member or voter. The next party leadership contest I'll get to vote on will be Daisy Cooper vs Layla Moran.
You need a sense of humour with that choice! 😆
I quite like Daisy Cooper. Not about to do a gig at the Edinburgh fringe anytime soon, but has the wherewithal and intelligence to do a good job.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
I believe until you get a positive test of some description you can roam free. If you get a positive LFT then you need to stay home (except to get tested) whilst the PCR result comes through. If negative then you are free to roam again but if positive you are then locked down for 10 days. Of course, the easy way to ensure you don't have to go into isolation is not to take a test. However, if you have symptoms you are definitely meant to get a PCR test but no clue if that is legally enforceable!
If you are going around the streets coughing and sneezing then I'm sure the reaction of others is fairly predictable.
I only detected my Covid last week because I took a LFT with a slight headache which showed a really thin line that I then got confirmed by PCR. If I hadn't done the LFT then I probably would have only gone for a PCR the next day when more flu-like symptoms appeared.
On the other hand, I would stay home until the PCR test result came back, unless massively inconvenient/life screwing up.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
If your rapid flow test is negative, then you're not infectious (with about 95% confidence). You could still be infected and become infectious - which is why you need to test every couple of days.
LFTs aren't particularly accurate as medical diagnostics, but they are a very effective public health tool indeed. (And now you don't need to swab the back of your throat, nowhere near as much of a pain.)
If the LFT is positive then you are infectious, with a very high degree of certainty.
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
Make your mind up!
She has a sense of humour. The only well known Labour politician I can think of who has anything approaching one. I would love her to lead the party but then I'm not a Labour member or voter. The next party leadership contest I'll get to vote on will be Daisy Cooper vs Layla Moran.
You need a sense of humour with that choice! 😆
I quite like Daisy Cooper. Not about to do a gig at the Edinburgh fringe anytime soon, but has the wherewithal and intelligence to do a good job.
Given the choice, Daisy Cooper is less likely to put voters off so would be the better choice for LDs notwithstanding her relative inexperience. I am not LD but think Ed Davey is ok
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
Personally, I find myself smiling and sometimes even chuckling when Boris does his routine despite being horrified at what he is doing to the country.
There are funnier comedians about. And we have certainly had governments with more of a clue.
No wonder Tories very quiet on here this afternoon. Pensive in the background after that 45 minutes of primeministerial madness.
The only thing Boris has left is he beat Corbyn and currently got poll leads. Without that, what’s stopping the Tories crowning Rishi?
What I will say, though, is that it feels like the mood is shifting.
It’s not visible in the polls, but it is among Tory opinion formers.
The press is starting to look a bit hostile. The Mail is printing anti-Boris articles, the Telegraph and the Spectator are starting to give space to hostile pieces.
Some of the Tories I follow on Twitter are starting to ask themselves what the hell is going on. There are beyond the limits to the ideological flexibility being required of them.
Totally agree. A sea change in British Politics is happening right now.
Labours conference last week when they made clear they will aggressively pitch for the Lexits and those put off by Corbynism.
And this week, a Tory conference big on bluster of better just around the corner, very short on policy that convinces it will be better. Very short on policy that convinces or unconvincing in fact. The Tories are now lost.
The Tories have never been as purely liaises faire as Philip Thompson - maybe in mid eighties when Maggie did a U Turn on monetarism and they just liberalised markets instead, but handful of years later deputy Prime Minister Hestletine is promising intervention before breakfast, tiffin and dinner.
Interesting analysis, from the GRaun feed, that
"In some respects Boris Johnson was presenting himself as the heir to Margaret Thatcher in his conference speech, as he claimed to have the “guts” to address problems bedevilling the British economy for decades (see 9.17am), but rightwing Thatcherites in thinktanks and campaign groups have been among the strongest critics of the speech.
Mark Littlewood, who runs the Institute of Economic Affairs, accused Johnson of just offering “more state intervention and spending”. He said:
'The prime minister says he wants a high wage economy. That requires gains in productivity, which we would see if the government started deregulating rather than over-regulating.
He says he wants a low tax economy, but his government is likely to oversee the highest burden of tax since the Attlee post-war socialist government.
Unnecessarily restricting the supply of labour may lead to wage increases, but these will be passed on in price increases. A strategy to make things more expensive will not create a genuinely high wage economy, merely the illusion of one.
Boris Johnson’s rhetoric is always optimistic and enterprising, but insofar as there were actual policies behind it, they seemed to involve yet more state intervention and spending.'
The Adam Smith Institute, another free market thinktank, said that Johnson’s speech was “vacuous and economically illiterate”, that it set out “an agenda for levelling down”, and that the PM’s policies were inflationary.."
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
But she's so authentic, she calls people "bab"
Afternoon all. OKC has finished a short holiday which involved quite a lot of driving (Essex > Yorks > Berwick (almost) > Yorks > N. Wales) and very little evidence of petrol shortages.
Jess Phillips surely is like her leader; basically working or lower-middle class who achieved excellent results in the 11+ exam and as a result got one of the best educations the state system can provide. Her reward is to be criticised for not forgetting 'the folk from whom she came', to quote a phrase from a long ago Labour politician.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detail
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
And that's the point.
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
Charisma trumps all. Trump himself, Arnie, Reagan, and now Boris all learned their craft on the small or big screen.
This is interesting on the power of the Boris brand. People queueing 5 hours to see his speech today
They even queue 5 hours for petrol and still love him.
I'm not so sure he's a shoo-in for next time. I don't think he has his 'vim' back. He hates being put under pressure, something Corbyn never managed and hence why he dodged Andrew Neil. But I don't think he will get away with such evasion next time. Starmer has been good at PMQ's.
And he has returned to being extremely overweight and still looks unwell to me.
His biggest problem is probably the timeframe. Even if he goes a year early that's c. 18 months away. Because of covid and Brexit the whole thing is wrong for his election management. We're going to be economically dipping at the time that he wants to see an uplift. And given that he often dithers I think we're probably looking at 2024.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
I believe until you get a positive test of some description you can roam free. If you get a positive LFT then you need to stay home (except to get tested) whilst the PCR result comes through. If negative then you are free to roam again but if positive you are then locked down for 10 days. Of course, the easy way to ensure you don't have to go into isolation is not to take a test. However, if you have symptoms you are definitely meant to get a PCR test but no clue if that is legally enforceable!
If you are going around the streets coughing and sneezing then I'm sure the reaction of others is fairly predictable.
I only detected my Covid last week because I took a LFT with a slight headache which showed a really thin line that I then got confirmed by PCR. If I hadn't done the LFT then I probably would have only gone for a PCR the next day when more flu-like symptoms appeared.
On the other hand, I would stay home until the PCR test result came back, unless massively inconvenient/life screwing up.
Yes, agreed. The whole system though is very open to abuse by just avoiding getting tested. If I had not bothered to report my LFT or get a PCR I would have probably been able to carry on as normal. I suspect a lot of people who can't work from home like I can and will face loss of income if they do will make a different decision.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Watched the speech. This conference was the expert Monopoly player with all the houses and hotels loaded on the juicy spots casually passing Go for another £200, while his opponents sit there with the Utilities and Kings Cross and wonder why they’re losing.
On the basis of that speech, I think he will win another majority of greater than 50 without breaking a sweat. The next PM will be a Tory and not for a few years yet, it’s pretty clear now.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
It's only funny if you can forget about Johnsons entire pandemic policy. Not so much a 'road map' but an rough sketch of spaghetti junction.
How many people had to die so we could 'save Christmas'?
We have to accept that charisma wins elections and helps to keep leaders in power. The evidence is there for all to see. It's bloody frustrating when it's Boris doing it, but the answer must be to meet fire with fire. Jess Philips is the only prominent Labour politician with enough of the stuff to match Johnson. Not Burnham, not Rayner, definitely not Corbyn (I always found his delivery flat and uninspiring, he was simply a cypher for ideologies).
The Lib Dems need it even more otherwise nobody notices. Who were the two most well thought of leaders of the party in my lifetime? Ashdown and Kennedy. Both had charisma and positivity. Before them, Ian Thorpe.
Jess Philips really doesn't have it
Ed Balls maybe, a smidgen, but he's gone
Besides I reckon you are asking the wrong question. You could just accept that the Government has a charismatic leader, and you don't. For a long while Labour had Blair, and the Tories had Major, Howard, Hague, IDS....
But Blair was flawed as is Boris.
Attack the flaw. I reckon Burnham has the right amount of anti-Boris gravitas while remaining personable, with a bit of charm. Starmer, no
Jess Phillips has something in common with a lot of Labour, Centrists & Leftists alike - they are middle class, university graduates from selective/ private schooling who are convinced they are still down with the working class
Make your mind up!
She has a sense of humour. The only well known Labour politician I can think of who has anything approaching one. I would love her to lead the party but then I'm not a Labour member or voter. The next party leadership contest I'll get to vote on will be Daisy Cooper vs Layla Moran.
You need a sense of humour with that choice! 😆
I quite like Daisy Cooper. Not about to do a gig at the Edinburgh fringe anytime soon, but has the wherewithal and intelligence to do a good job.
There are some really quite good LD female MPs (so that's basically all of them) - none of them seem likely to seize the throne, such as it is, of the far less good Davey.
Odd.
I'm tempted to say I think the LDs will be usurped by the Greens anyway. However I simply don't understand the LD vote.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
That's interesting, especially coming from a loyal Tory like you.
Boris is funny. He's also a show off, and likes to show off his linguistic capabilities in his speeches. His classical allusions and references to obscure stuff are appealing to those who understand them, but I'd bet they're lost on a lot of people who are not so keen on linguistic gymnastics or don't understand the references. Being impartial, I quite like them.
Once you strip that linguistic stuff and the jokes away, there's not much substance left. I think that's what you're implying, and does contrast with Blair, Thatcher, Heseltine etc. whose speeches had more substance. With Boris, if you remember anything at all it would only be the jokes.
I dont particularly find Johnson funny, even for taking into account I dont like the man, just a bumbling fool, an act he has honed well.some people think personality trumps everything, rubbish, if that was the case how did John Major, and almost Teresa May, win an election. I have heard people on here deride William Hague, but he was a brilliant at PMQs, he could genuinely deliver some great lines, but it didnt make any difference, because at every turn he had Murdoch on his case.The most important thing for winning elections is to get the backing of Murdoch and his cronies.If murdoch started backing Starmer, and I certainly dont think that will happen, then see what happens to the labour vote, also they would start making Johnson look like the incompetent liar he is. Tony Blair was no fool, he knew what it takes to win elections in the uk.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
There's an element of truth to this, certainly for me, a comprehensive school kid who went to Oxbridge and was suddenly confronted by these, what seemed to me, appalling people. The great irony though is that, the one time I actually met Boris Johnson, he did the exact opposite of looking through me as if I didn't exist. I'd previously asked him a fairly hostile question at the conference he had been paid to speak at, and when I talked to him at the small drinks reception afterwards he recognised me and seemed absolutely desperate for me to like him.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Nonsense. There are plenty of Tory toffs I don't mind, both now and in the past. I go case by case.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Exactly that. No surprise that Major himself is not a fan. I remember the comment Alan Clark made about Heseltine that he was the type who "bought his own furniture", so this is not a new thing. There are some very instructive early chapters in Brideshead Revisited that hint at the quiet, effortless humiliation this group can inflict.
Our class system is so totally, fractally detailed as to allow for this kind of distinction.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Mr Cameron was/is a bit of an essay crisis merchant, but at least he worked hard enough to get a First in PPE - not one of the 'easier' degrees and some time ago too.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
What I find surprising is why the elderly find him attractive..
The harrumphing sort, who rightly considered Corbyn a scruff, seem to think it HILARIOUS when Boris turns up looking like a drunken tramp to the laying of the wreath at the cenotaph.
I get that apolitical types think Boris is a laff. I don’t get why elderly people fawn on him.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I think people are supposed to be able to read a newspaper critically at 16yrs old.
Note my observation. It is entirely possible to separate out his charisma and comedy from his ability to be PM.
People do like him and he is funny. People would ideally also be able to distinguish his charm from his fitness to be PM.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
That's interesting, especially coming from a loyal Tory like you.
Boris is funny. He's also a show off, and likes to show off his linguistic capabilities in his speeches. His classical allusions and references to obscure stuff are appealing to those who understand them, but I'd bet they're lost on a lot of people who are not so keen on linguistic gymnastics or don't understand the references. Being impartial, I quite like them.
Once you strip that linguistic stuff and the jokes away, there's not much substance left. I think that's what you're implying, and does contrast with Blair, Thatcher, Heseltine etc. whose speeches had more substance. With Boris, if you remember anything at all it would only be the jokes.
Yes, obviously I preferred the content of Boris' speech and it was more funny but I actually think Starmer's will end up being the more substantive of the 2.
There was more to Starmer's speech, it was more serious and Starmer also was the first Labour leader to genuinely take on the left since New Labour
The idea of a really really funny Adolf Hitler is actually a bit of a mind-fuck
Sort of like the Monty Python Killer Joke sketch; "Der ver zwei peanuts, valking down der strasse, and von vas . . . assaulted! peanut."
But seriously, folks...
If the next few years turn out tough, we're about to get a genuinely useful bit of information. There are two theories that explain the politics of my lifetime.
1. A government keeps winning until it unambiguously fails, which is usually to do with lack of money. (Three day week caused Wilson to beat Heath; Winter of Discontent caused Thatcher to beat Callaghan; Black Wednesday caused Blair to beat Major; Credit Crunch caused Cameron to beat Brown.) In particular, once the failure happens, there's not much of a way back.
2. Bigger characters beat smaller characters.
They might be linked, of course. Thatch and Cameron looked a lot smaller before the governments of the time fell over. And there's nothing like a calamitous failure to make a PM shrivel. Compare John Major in June 1992 and December 1992.
But, what happens if you have a Biiiiig PM (and BoJo is the Big Man par excellence) that unambiguously fails? I don't think we've tried that bit of space before. A Thatcher-Kinnock faceoff in 1992 might have done that, but we never got it. Like a brand new virus, there's some interesting scientific data to collect here.
I dont particularly find Johnson funny, even for taking into account I dont like the man, just a bumbling fool, an act he has honed well.some people think personality trumps everything, rubbish, if that was the case how did John Major, and almost Teresa May, win an election. I have heard people on here deride William Hague, but he was a brilliant at PMQs, he could genuinely deliver some great lines, but it didnt make any difference, because at every turn he had Murdoch on his case.The most important thing for winning elections is to get the backing of Murdoch and his cronies.If murdoch started backing Starmer, and I certainly dont think that will happen, then see what happens to the labour vote, also they would start making Johnson look like the incompetent liar he is. Tony Blair was no fool, he knew what it takes to win elections in the uk.
It is more charisma normally wins. After all Corbyn almost won in 2017 because he was more charismatic than May despite lacking Murdoch's support, as soon as the more charismatic Boris took over he easily beat Corbyn.
That does not mean no charisma can never win, see Major, Heath or Attlee but that is often because of a vote against the government rather than for the leader eg in 1945 against the Tories and in 1970 against Labour. Starmer will hope to win on an anti Tory vote in 2023/24. While in Major's case Kinnock's Labour was still seen as too leftwing for power.
In the social media age Murdoch is also less powerful than he was (remember he backed Romney against Obama in 2012 via Fox News and his tabloids and Romney lost)
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
That's interesting, especially coming from a loyal Tory like you.
Boris is funny. He's also a show off, and likes to show off his linguistic capabilities in his speeches. His classical allusions and references to obscure stuff are appealing to those who understand them, but I'd bet they're lost on a lot of people who are not so keen on linguistic gymnastics or don't understand the references. Being impartial, I quite like them.
Once you strip that linguistic stuff and the jokes away, there's not much substance left. I think that's what you're implying, and does contrast with Blair, Thatcher, Heseltine etc. whose speeches had more substance. With Boris, if you remember anything at all it would only be the jokes.
Yes, obviously I preferred the content of Boris' speech and it was more funny but I actually think Starmer's will end up being the more substantive of the 2.
There was more to Starmer's speech, it was more serious and Starmer also was the first Labour leader to genuinely take on the left since New Labour
The thing to realise though, is what appeals to party members and political obsessives is not particularly what wins you elections. People want to feel good about themselves and their country, and they want to feel like the government has their back. And I expect the requisite 42-45% of British voters will feel that way in 2024 for the PM to earn another comfortable majority.
Whether that leads to good governance is a wholly different matter.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Almost everyone I know who has had it has tested negative via LFT(s) first before they were confirmed +ve via PCR.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Exactly that. No surprise that Major himself is not a fan. I remember the comment Alan Clark made about Heseltine that he was the type who "bought his own furniture", so this is not a new thing. There are some very instructive early chapters in Brideshead Revisited that hint at the quiet, effortless humiliation this group can inflict.
Our class system is so totally, fractally detailed as to allow for this kind of distinction.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
Exactly that. No surprise that Major himself is not a fan. I remember the comment Alan Clark made about Heseltine that he was the type who "bought his own furniture", so this is not a new thing. There are some very instructive early chapters in Brideshead Revisited that hint at the quiet, effortless humiliation this group can inflict.
Our class system is so totally, fractally detailed as to allow for this kind of distinction.
One has to choose between an association of very bad people on the right that broadly have good wishes towards our country, and a set of very bad people on the left that broadly wish our country ill.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
Agree. He is a fabulous performer at what he does. Looking back at PMs, May was just not good at oratory, Cameron was pretty good but failed at the important Brexit referendum point where his lack of idealism lost it for them, Brown was pretty awful unless you believe in economics jargon, and once the banking crisis had arrived (no more boom and bust) was a spent force, Blair - genius but you only have to say 'Iraq' and 'self enrichment' to end the subject, Major was decent until the ERM debacle showed they all backed the wrong horse. Thatcher was a genius at speaking - only Blair in the same league - but her time came and went as well.
Boris does: fabulous stand up+getting Brexit done+popular with non Tories of a certain sort.
To expect much more is to ask PG Wodehouse to write Lady Chatterley's Lover.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
"Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary"
Or perhaps because he was Head of the Remain campaign!
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Tony Benn simply answered his own questions.
When at Uni, he turned up for a Q&A session. The Labour chap was unavailable. So I stood in as a student rep. When he didn't answer the question but answered his own, I simply thanked him and re-asked the question (from the audience).
A couple of days later, the Labour chap popped by the student rag office. Apparently the feedback on my performance wasn't positive, inside Labour circles.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Almost everyone I know who has had it has tested negative via LFT(s) first before they were confirmed +ve via PCR.
It seems very random to me with only my own results seemingly making sense.
- Myself. Faint positive on LFT, Positive on PCR. Had strong positive LFTs following this. - 3yo. Negative on LFT, Negative on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with positive LFT and definitely had it. - 8yo. Negative on LFT, Positive on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with negative LFT. Tested positive again on PCR. Still negative on LFT.
All tested in the same way. We have been very confused by the results!
Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detail
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
And that's the point.
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
Yes, 'the praetorian guard of Leave voters' nails it. The Brexit wars were massively divisive with no one prepared to surrender an inch. Boris - in what was probably the greatest act of political shrewdness of the modern age - moulded himself into the very embodiment of Brexit. 52% of the country now cannot find flaws in Boris without finding flaws in their own judgment and intelligence. Boris is literally a kind of political god. I don't think the western world has seen anything like it.
Trump is exactly the same phenomenon. Worse though, because his vision is far darker than Johnson's. I view Johnson as a threat to good government. Trump is a threat to democracy itself.
I know others will disagree but I think that's key - Boris may be crap, but hes not dangerous. Hes much more establishment.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Tony Benn simply answered his own questions.
When at Uni, he turned up for a Q&A session. The Labour chap was unavailable. So I stood in as a student rep. When he didn't answer the question but answered his own, I simply thanked him and re-asked the question (from the audience).
A couple of days later, the Labour chap popped by the student rag office. Apparently the feedback on my performance wasn't positive, inside Labour circles.
Gosh, you have an anecdote for every occasion, don't you? I guess I must be wrong then.
I’m trying to think of postwar, non-UK European leaders with charisma. It’s quite hard
De Gaulle, obviously
Gorbachev
Lech Walesa
Then I start to run out. Germany has had a run of solid leaders who don’t quite cut it. Schroeder, Kohl, Merkel
I guess Berlusconi maybe - which is a warning for Boris-lovers
Mitterand, Chirac, Sarkozy and indeed Macron all had/have charisma. As did Kohl and Schroder and of course Berlusconi.
Yeltsin did and Putin does too in a dark way
Yes, I was living in Germany when Schroeder was chancellor. He very much projected the image (to Germans) of being the sort of bloke you'd like to have have a pint with. He was all charisma and no policies.
If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
But you've got several non-Tories and Boris-dislikers on this very forum admitting that, even though they resent the politician, he can make them laugh. So you're simply wrong. It's not just "johnson fans" who see the joke
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
Worth recalling that Starmer's speech was reasonably well received on here.
Yes, and by me, amongst others. I thought - and said here - Starmer did pretty well. He’s not a great orator, he’s lacking in humour, but he came across as decent, sincere (tho later on I recalled Starmer’s demand for a 2nd referendum so I resiled on that). Starmer also spoke far too long, and didn’t offer any detail
Boris gabbled his speech, he threw away good, funny, profound or important lines. Why does he do this? I think others are right: he’s used to addressing drunken dinners. His peroration was weak and, like Starmer, the speech lacked detail.
But Boris told a good and upbeat story (unlike Starmer), he made his audience, in the hall and at home, actually laugh. It’s pretty clear which party will be going home in better spirits, and which party is happier with its leader
The economy has to absolutely tank for Labour to have a chance of winning. That might happen, of course
And that's the point.
If things are going well, any incumbent will look like a winner, even if they are an incoherent oaf.
When things go badly, that's when politicians earn their corn. People can read the polls of 2020 in different ways, but I think they show BoJo gradually spaffing away the bump he got as we all rallied round the flag at the start of the crisis.
And sunny optimism works brilliantly in sunny times. Try the same thing when lots of people are struggling, it makes you look a bit of a psycho. So the next election depends on what it always depended on- does Bozzanomics work?
But Boris has already shown he can survive bad times. The UKG fucked up early covid, didn’t close the borders in time, killed people in care homes. Disgraceful. We also had the worst economic slump in the G7. Meanwhile Brexit has been endless ear-ache and people have been queuing hours for petrol (a crisis which severely dented ‘Teflon’ Tony Blair)
Yet Boris sails serenely on. He is protected by the praetorian guard of Leave voters, but he also has some undefinable charisma which sustains him. He is a phenomenon. He’s also clearly regained his vim after his Covid infection
If he stays in office til the next GE he will be extremely hard to defeat - as things stand
Yes, 'the praetorian guard of Leave voters' nails it. The Brexit wars were massively divisive with no one prepared to surrender an inch. Boris - in what was probably the greatest act of political shrewdness of the modern age - moulded himself into the very embodiment of Brexit. 52% of the country now cannot find flaws in Boris without finding flaws in their own judgment and intelligence. Boris is literally a kind of political god. I don't think the western world has seen anything like it.
Trump is exactly the same phenomenon. Worse though, because his vision is far darker than Johnson's. I view Johnson as a threat to good government. Trump is a threat to democracy itself.
I know others will disagree but I think that's key - Boris may be crap, but hes not dangerous. Hes much more establishment.
Yes, I think that Britain will survive whatever Johnson does to us. I just see his time in power as a huge missed opportunity, where we have all these terrible problems which he has no actual ideas about solving, so we will get all this empty rhetoric but nothing will really change. And of course I think Brexit is a mistake, and hold him responsible, but it's not the end of the world. Whereas I genuinely think there is a decent chance that America wouldn't survive as a liberal democracy if Trump got hold of power again.
Just watched Boris' speech. Genuinely laugh out loud funny. Some references in there for the geeks (noticed Nadine Dorries looked genuinely confused at the Hereward the "Woke"). The ending was genuinely uplifting and positive. Keir's speech last week was more about slaying the demons in his own party. Quite a difference.
There was some brilliant stuff in that speech carelessly thrown away by his odd, unfortunate tendency to gabble so quickly, like his mouth can’t quite keep up with his brain
eg I bet this is the first UK PM’s speech in many decades to use the word ‘alembics’
He speaks to two audiences. Actually three. First the conference audience which adores him and who he can take less seriously; secondly the wider public for whom there must be the obligator Boris Joke and also some serious NHS/levelling up/vaccines soundbites.
And the third audience is small, it might only be himself, but likely to be some confidantes also, for whom the whole thing is a huge joke that is being perpetrated on the party and the public. Hence the knowing smiles and smirks and as I mentioned earlier, breaking of the fourth wall.
I do get the feeling that most of what Boris does publicly is to feed his public persona. But equally as important, as you say, is the other component - doing it for himself.
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Almost everyone I know who has had it has tested negative via LFT(s) first before they were confirmed +ve via PCR.
Not a surprise - PCR is way more sensitive, so if you are not very positive, the lateral flow can miss this.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
"Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary"
Or perhaps because he was Head of the Remain campaign!
I suspect you will find those with similar views which held Cameron in higher esteem than Johnson were formed 5-10 years before the referendum. Perhaps made stronger because of their roles in Brexit, but (mostly) not formed because of it.
I’m trying to think of postwar, non-UK European leaders with charisma. It’s quite hard
De Gaulle, obviously
Gorbachev
Lech Walesa
Then I start to run out. Germany has had a run of solid leaders who don’t quite cut it. Schroeder, Kohl, Merkel
I guess Berlusconi maybe - which is a warning for Boris-lovers
Mitterand, Chirac, Sarkozy and indeed Macron all had/have charisma. As did Kohl and Schroder and of course Berlusconi.
Yeltsin did and Putin does too in a dark way
Yes, I was living in Germany when Schroeder was chancellor. He very much projected the image (to Germans) of being the sort of bloke you'd like to have have a pint with. He was all charisma and no policies.
Yes, remember he beat Kohl and beat Stoiber and nearly beat Merkel in 2005 too, the only SPD leader to get close to her.
He was good at winning votes I agree less so at doing anything substantive with the power he had
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Almost everyone I know who has had it has tested negative via LFT(s) first before they were confirmed +ve via PCR.
It seems very random to me with only my own results seemingly making sense.
- Myself. Faint positive on LFT, Positive on PCR. Had strong positive LFTs following this. - 3yo. Negative on LFT, Negative on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with positive LFT and definitely had it. - 8yo. Negative on LFT, Positive on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with negative LFT. Tested positive again on PCR. Still negative on LFT.
All tested in the same way. We have been very confused by the results!
You're all positive, the test specificities are miles higher than the sensitivities.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. Eeek
The fellow who did some work round my house on Monday has now tested positive for Covid via PCR - I drove to have one myself this morning, so what's the coup? I have to stay in and not see anyone for a day or so? Or is it ok to still go out now so many people have been jabbed?
Don't you have any rapid flow tests ?
Yes, I’ve done a couple and both negative. So not too worried, although I’ve def got a cold. But the bloke who has got it did two negative LFTs then a positive PCR, so thought I’d best be careful
Almost everyone I know who has had it has tested negative via LFT(s) first before they were confirmed +ve via PCR.
It seems very random to me with only my own results seemingly making sense.
- Myself. Faint positive on LFT, Positive on PCR. Had strong positive LFTs following this. - 3yo. Negative on LFT, Negative on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with positive LFT and definitely had it. - 8yo. Negative on LFT, Positive on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with negative LFT. Tested positive again on PCR. Still negative on LFT.
All tested in the same way. We have been very confused by the results!
There is nothing out of kilter in those results. Lateral flow is just less sensitive. For you, the viral load was increasing, hence the weak lateral flow became more obvious, but the PCR picked it straight away. For the 3yo I note no second PCR - this would have been positive. The 8yo clearly had a low viral load throughout.
I’m trying to think of postwar, non-UK European leaders with charisma. It’s quite hard
De Gaulle, obviously
Gorbachev
Lech Walesa
Then I start to run out. Germany has had a run of solid leaders who don’t quite cut it. Schroeder, Kohl, Merkel
I guess Berlusconi maybe - which is a warning for Boris-lovers
Mitterand, Chirac, Sarkozy and indeed Macron all had/have charisma. As did Kohl and Schroder and of course Berlusconi.
Yeltsin did and Putin does too in a dark way
Yes, I was living in Germany when Schroeder was chancellor. He very much projected the image (to Germans) of being the sort of bloke you'd like to have have a pint with. He was all charisma and no policies.
Er, Schroeder introduced major policies that revamped the German economy, like a kind of Teutonic Thatcher. The Schroeder reforms. Agenda 2010
If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Me too - legs do not feel the cold, therefore shorts are appropriate in pretty much all weathers. See also kilts and Scotland.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
Angela Eagle and William Hague can be genuinely funny.
For those who can't do it (SKS, Enoch Powell, Mrs T, Bordon Brown, T May and most people) the only trick that works is don't try.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. Eeek
Kinnock was good when speaking to his own party. Not so good when addressing voters in general.
Watched the Boris speech and while very funny there was not much new in it beyond a bit more about levelling up and promising not be too woke. It was also just half the length of Starmer's speech (though that might be a bonus).
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
You are quite right on this, young HY. Johnson is not a patch on previous leaders like Blair, Thatcher, Brown and Heseltine. I did not agree with their policies at the time, but at least when they spoke in public, they were capable of arguing a case.
Someone else that doesn't get it
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
I don't disagree with that, but if you're talking about great orators they really are very few and far between, and Boris isn't up there with them. In my lifetime only Blair, Obama and Clinton have had that real gift of making rousing, fluent, lengthy speeches that really gripped the audience. I don't think Thatcher was as good - she had different skills.
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Obama was genuinely world class, shame he wasn't as good as president as he was at speaking. That sonorous voice really helped
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Enoch Powell was the best speaker we have had on the right in the UK but he was also slightly mad.
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too
Yes, Kinnock was jolly good. Possibly the best public speaker on the left in recent decades, certainly the best speaker who was also leader. Better than Blair, more passionate and spontaneous. Of course that spontaneity was his downfall when he did the whole "We're awwwwright" at the Sheffield rally. Eeek
Benn was a good speaker for the Left too. Even better debater, even if I rarely agreed with any of his analysis or policy prescriptions.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
I also don't get where all that "good old Boris" idea comes from. But then perhaps I am in that 40% or so who just sees through his act and can see him for what he is. Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types that I saw quite enough of at Uni - the ones who always want to borrow your lecture notes because they and their friends couldn't be bothered to get out of bed in time to go, or borrow your library book because they were too disorganised to request a copy a week before they needed it.
Not the sort to trust with running anything, however witty they might be. Let alone a country. Yet the other 40% or so don't see that at all, and I'm genuinely mystified why not.
A lot of Boris-hatred, like yours and kinabalu's, is driven by chippy class-hatred. YOU see a posho who looks down on you, and that makes YOU seethe
Plenty of people don't give much of a fuck about class any more
Not at all. Don't give a shit about that. If that looks like anti-public school prejudice then that's because there was a type of person that seemed to come from that background, but nowhere else. (E.g. Cameron, same background, I don't feel the same about him at all). It's his evident laziness and dishonesty I object to. But genuinely puzzled why others don't see it through the showmanship.
I think a lot of the people who get most irritated by Johnson are actually upper middle class professionals. Though not Etonians necessarily.
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Like TMexPM, you mean? Or Major? Or the Blessed Margaret herself?
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
"Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary"
Or perhaps because he was Head of the Remain campaign!
I suspect you will find those with similar views which held Cameron in higher esteem than Johnson were formed 5-10 years before the referendum. Perhaps made stronger because of their roles in Brexit, but (mostly) not formed because of it.
Absolutely. Take Michael Gove. If I were a Brexit monomaniac, I would hold him in the same contempt as I do BoJo. But I don't. He's serious, hardworking and has interesting ideas. Not sure about his judgement about which ideas to carry forward, or his ability to make things happen on the ground, but he is an adornment to public life. In a decade, I can see him still being around, having the Wise Old Owl role in a future Conservative (shadow/actual) Cabinet.
If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
The PB Tories would cite it as evidence of BBC lefty bias that he wasn't given a go in the Radio 4 6:30pm comedy slot.
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
When I was a lad the only adult males who wore shorts all the year round were scoutmasters.
Boris is showbiz. Absolutely no doubt about that. Cracking jokes, magnetic stage presence.
Totally unfit to be PM but who TF cares.
I care. Ok, so he has charisma and can be genuinely funny. Not quite a 'fill the Albert Hall' type performer but, yep, a funny bloke. For a politician VERY funny. But I don't give two figs about that and neither imo should anyone else. Why are we looking for laughs in our politicians? Why is this remotely important? Are we little kids at the panto or something? The upshot of being in thrall to the Johnson persona, this "Boris" thing he has off to a fine art, is wholly negative in that it allows him (but not us) to escape the consequences of his shameless mendacity and lazy incompetence. And what depresses me is how many seem to think this is fine, it's just fantastic (!) how he floats free of the normal rules, or maybe they're so busy chuckling at his shtick they don't even notice what's going on. All I can suggest is these people go on YouTube, or whatever, and catch some great comedy there, there's so much of it available these days, what with the internet and all, or read a comic novel, or go see a real rib-tickler of a movie, slapstick, satire, romcom, whatever floats the boat, get their fill of shits and giggles like that, instead of seeking it in the upper echelons of Westminster politics. Otherwise, I fear the worst. Boris Johnson is no monster but his effect on the environment is toxic. He's kind of infantilizing public life and doing same to a sizable chunk of the population. He's turning lots of brains, some of them in otherwise good working order, to mush.
Might be easier for Labour to find a leader who can tell jokes.
But they are remarkably unfunny jokes to those of us who cannot see the Emperor's new Clothes.
OK here's one joke Boris told (there were quite a few, some good, some bad, some badly fluffed)
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
I generally don't find politicians jokes from speeches particularly worthy at the best of times.
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
But you've got several non-Tories and Boris-dislikers on this very forum admitting that, even though they resent the politician, he can make them laugh. So you're simply wrong. It's not just "johnson fans" who see the joke
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
OK, it must be me, a centrist woke w***** with no sense of humour.
On the other hand I do find Mogg spontaneously witty.
Comments
Look at this quite compelling video from the 2019 election, when Boris visited a Golders Green bakery full of Jewish voters. They REALLY like him. Of course they want him to save them from the awful anti-Semite Corbyn, but it goes beyond that.
And these are British Jews, detached from the English class system, these are not plebs "stupidly" admiring some Etonian fool.
He has a rare political gift. Many have tried to define it over centuries, charm, charisma, whatever, and no one has truly succeeded. But he has it. And it is what makes him so hard to beat in elections
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1203612512366866434?s=20
Rich, but dishevelled is cool. Dishevelled, and nothing you can do about it, isn't
We haven’t seen any statistical data around real wage rises yet. Per the last update from the ONS, there weren’t any.
I’d wait for the data before you get too carried away.
Why are these horrid Captains of industry being so beastly to poor Boris this afternoon after his very funny speech?
They've settled their beIN dispute.
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/qatars-bein-sports-says-saudi-arabia-will-soon-lift-ban-2021-10-06/
"Personally I just see him as being another one of those arrogant entitled lazy public school types"
Still, if you think your Borisophobia has nothing to do with class, fair enough
If there is a class element to the dislike it's the intra-upper-middle exclusion felt by the hard working grammar school or independent day school kid who has come face to face with the Bullingdon types in their first term at university. The ones who look straight through you as if you don't exist.
Anyway thanks for others' thoughts, back to work.
I do not have anything like the same disregard for say JRM or Cameron as I do for Johnson. So your class argument is an absolute crock
It is Johnson's behaviour both politically and personally that gets my back up.
Labours conference last week when they made clear they will aggressively pitch for the Lexits and those put off by Corbynism.
And this week, a Tory conference big on bluster of better just around the corner, very short on policy that convinces it will be better. Very short on policy that convinces or unconvincing in fact. The Tories are now lost.
The Tories have never been as purely liaises faire as Philip Thompson - maybe in mid eighties when Maggie did a U Turn on monetarism and they just liberalised markets instead, but handful of years later deputy Prime Minister Hestletine is promising intervention before breakfast, tiffin and dinner.
Manchester City v. Newcastle United.
If you are going around the streets coughing and sneezing then I'm sure the reaction of others is fairly predictable.
I only detected my Covid last week because I took a LFT with a slight headache which showed a really thin line that I then got confirmed by PCR. If I hadn't done the LFT then I probably would have only gone for a PCR the next day when more flu-like symptoms appeared.
"In his final act of absurd opportunism Keir Starmer decided to oppose step four of the roadmap in July.
That's right folks - if we had listened to captain hindsight we would still be in lockdown.
If Christopher Columbus had listened to captain hindsight he’d be famous for having discovered Tenerife."
That's just.... a decent joke. Not a joke for the ages, but well timed, well constructed, with the classic three part structure: line one, assertion, line two, development, line three, the punchline - cue laughter, and comic relief. And "Tenerife" is excellently chosen. Somewhere humdrum and a tiny bit naff.
If a professional comedian delivered that on Have I Got News For You it would get reasonable laughs. In fact it would be funnier than some of their present day dross.
If you find it unfunny I suggest it is because you hate Boris, so nothing he says can be funny.
It's an interesting thought experiment, actually. Can politicians we personally regard as evil ever be funny? I would struggle to laugh at anything Trump said. If Hitler told the best joke in the world, what would happen?
LFTs aren't particularly accurate as medical diagnostics, but they are a very effective public health tool indeed. (And now you don't need to swab the back of your throat, nowhere near as much of a pain.)
If the LFT is positive then you are infectious, with a very high degree of certainty.
No wonder Tories very quiet on here this afternoon. Pensive in the background after that 45 minutes of primeministerial madness.
The only thing Boris has left is he beat Corbyn and currently got poll leads. Without that, what’s stopping the Tories crowning Rishi?
"In some respects Boris Johnson was presenting himself as the heir to Margaret Thatcher in his conference speech, as he claimed to have the “guts” to address problems bedevilling the British economy for decades (see 9.17am), but rightwing Thatcherites in thinktanks and campaign groups have been among the strongest critics of the speech.
Mark Littlewood, who runs the Institute of Economic Affairs, accused Johnson of just offering “more state intervention and spending”. He said:
'The prime minister says he wants a high wage economy. That requires gains in productivity, which we would see if the government started deregulating rather than over-regulating.
He says he wants a low tax economy, but his government is likely to oversee the highest burden of tax since the Attlee post-war socialist government.
Unnecessarily restricting the supply of labour may lead to wage increases, but these will be passed on in price increases. A strategy to make things more expensive will not create a genuinely high wage economy, merely the illusion of one.
Boris Johnson’s rhetoric is always optimistic and enterprising, but insofar as there were actual policies behind it, they seemed to involve yet more state intervention and spending.'
The Adam Smith Institute, another free market thinktank, said that Johnson’s speech was “vacuous and economically illiterate”, that it set out “an agenda for levelling down”, and that the PM’s policies were inflationary.."
The TaxPayers’ Alliance and CBI also unhappy.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/oct/06/boris-johnson-tory-conference-speech-economic-model-universal-credit-latest-updates-politics-live
Newcastle could end up bigger than PSG
Must be a worry for the other huge clubs. Good. Stir up more rivalry
It does strike me that Boris is not as powerful a public speaker and orator as PMs like Blair and Thatcher or even Cameron and Brown. I also have to say Tory conference speeches by the likes of Michael Heseltine or even William Hague were rather more rousing than the one Boris delivered this afternoon
Jess Phillips surely is like her leader; basically working or lower-middle class who achieved excellent results in the 11+ exam and as a result got one of the best educations the state system can provide.
Her reward is to be criticised for not forgetting 'the folk from whom she came', to quote a phrase from a long ago Labour politician.
https://www.devex.com/news/imf-chief-warns-lack-of-vaccines-could-cause-5-3-trillion-global-loss-101767
Cameron is the interesting one, I agree; also Eton and Oxford, but he doesn't set off my hard working sixth form college prejudices either. Perhaps because Dave gave the impression that, despite his advantages he could and would work hard when necessary. Rishi might be the same; I don't rate his political judgement, but I don't think he's a terrible person.
I'm not so sure he's a shoo-in for next time. I don't think he has his 'vim' back. He hates being put under pressure, something Corbyn never managed and hence why he dodged Andrew Neil. But I don't think he will get away with such evasion next time. Starmer has been good at PMQ's.
And he has returned to being extremely overweight and still looks unwell to me.
His biggest problem is probably the timeframe. Even if he goes a year early that's c. 18 months away. Because of covid and Brexit the whole thing is wrong for his election management. We're going to be economically dipping at the time that he wants to see an uplift. And given that he often dithers I think we're probably looking at 2024.
On the basis of that speech, I think he will win another majority of greater than 50 without breaking a sweat. The next PM will be a Tory and not for a few years yet, it’s pretty clear now.
How many people had to die so we could 'save Christmas'?
Odd.
I'm tempted to say I think the LDs will be usurped by the Greens anyway. However I simply don't understand the LD vote.
Boris is funny. He's also a show off, and likes to show off his linguistic capabilities in his speeches. His classical allusions and references to obscure stuff are appealing to those who understand them, but I'd bet they're lost on a lot of people who are not so keen on linguistic gymnastics or don't understand the references. Being impartial, I quite like them.
Once you strip that linguistic stuff and the jokes away, there's not much substance left. I think that's what you're implying, and does contrast with Blair, Thatcher, Heseltine etc. whose speeches had more substance. With Boris, if you remember anything at all it would only be the jokes.
The great irony though is that, the one time I actually met Boris Johnson, he did the exact opposite of looking through me as if I didn't exist. I'd previously asked him a fairly hostile question at the conference he had been paid to speak at, and when I talked to him at the small drinks reception afterwards he recognised me and seemed absolutely desperate for me to like him.
https://twitter.com/NAZALKARADAN/status/1353424529205256194
Boris has accepted his own limitations as a classic orator. It's just not him. He can't do it. His mind doesn't work in that way, he's never going to master the Obama style serious-pause-uplifting-peroration thing.
So he plays to his strengths. He's very clever with words, he's good at making jokes (and sometimes even delivering them), he rambles confusingly yet often engagingly, he gives a general impression of positivity and he conjures quite sharp insults. So that's what you get. It is not the Gettysburg Address but it is entertaining and you leave feeling buoyed (if you're one of his voters or party members)
It is also a lot better than Starmer, which is all he has to be, at the moment
In fact I'd say he's better than any British party leader at public speaking, even tho he really isn't very good. They are all poor, we have no one like Obama (and nor does the USA, apart from Obama?)
Our class system is so totally, fractally detailed as to allow for this kind of distinction.
https://capx.co/this-referendum-may-be-an-essay-crisis-too-far-for-david-cameron/
Note my observation. It is entirely possible to separate out his charisma and comedy from his ability to be PM.
People do like him and he is funny. People would ideally also be able to distinguish his charm from his fitness to be PM.
There was more to Starmer's speech, it was more serious and Starmer also was the first Labour leader to genuinely take on the left since New Labour
"Der ver zwei peanuts, valking down der strasse, and von vas . . . assaulted! peanut."
But seriously, folks...
If the next few years turn out tough, we're about to get a genuinely useful bit of information. There are two theories that explain the politics of my lifetime.
1. A government keeps winning until it unambiguously fails, which is usually to do with lack of money. (Three day week caused Wilson to beat Heath; Winter of Discontent caused Thatcher to beat Callaghan; Black Wednesday caused Blair to beat Major; Credit Crunch caused Cameron to beat Brown.) In particular, once the failure happens, there's not much of a way back.
2. Bigger characters beat smaller characters.
They might be linked, of course. Thatch and Cameron looked a lot smaller before the governments of the time fell over. And there's nothing like a calamitous failure to make a PM shrivel. Compare John Major in June 1992 and December 1992.
But, what happens if you have a Biiiiig PM (and BoJo is the Big Man par excellence) that unambiguously fails? I don't think we've tried that bit of space before. A Thatcher-Kinnock faceoff in 1992 might have done that, but we never got it. Like a brand new virus, there's some interesting scientific data to collect here.
Though I'd rather not live through it.
That does not mean no charisma can never win, see Major, Heath or Attlee but that is often because of a vote against the government rather than for the leader eg in 1945 against the Tories and in 1970 against Labour. Starmer will hope to win on an anti Tory vote in 2023/24. While in Major's case Kinnock's Labour was still seen as too leftwing for power.
In the social media age Murdoch is also less powerful than he was (remember he backed Romney against Obama in 2012 via Fox News and his tabloids and Romney lost)
On the left, Tony Benn had it. At his best he was mesmerising, whatever you thought about the content.
Whether that leads to good governance is a wholly different matter.
Thieves vs Bandits.
The most articulate public speaker in UK politics in the last 15 years is Daniel Hannan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs
In 3 minutes he tears Gordon Brown apart, eloquently, literately, and without a single pause or stumble, much better than any Tory in the Commons
After him maybe Alex Salmond?
Boris does: fabulous stand up+getting Brexit done+popular with non Tories of a certain sort.
To expect much more is to ask PG Wodehouse to write Lady Chatterley's Lover.
It is important to them.
Or perhaps because he was Head of the Remain campaign!
When at Uni, he turned up for a Q&A session. The Labour chap was unavailable. So I stood in as a student rep. When he didn't answer the question but answered his own, I simply thanked him and re-asked the question (from the audience).
A couple of days later, the Labour chap popped by the student rag office. Apparently the feedback on my performance wasn't positive, inside Labour circles.
- Myself. Faint positive on LFT, Positive on PCR. Had strong positive LFTs following this.
- 3yo. Negative on LFT, Negative on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with positive LFT and definitely had it.
- 8yo. Negative on LFT, Positive on PCR. Followed up 3 days later with negative LFT. Tested positive again on PCR. Still negative on LFT.
All tested in the same way. We have been very confused by the results!
Yeltsin did and Putin does too in a dark way
Clinton I don't remember, and he is now so tarnished by Epstein it is hard to see beyond that
Blair is a puzzle. The other day I went back and looked at his debut speech as party leader in 1994. It's bloody awful. Stiff, wooden, humourless. Yet I remember him being good, so I guess he grew in confidence
Kinnock on the left in his day made some very powerful speeches too
Johnson isn't spontaneous. He doesn't think on his feet in the way Churchill or Obama could. All the gags are well rehearsed in much the same way Starmer's were last week. So it's not just Johnson who is unfunny. Most politicians are laughter-free zones. It is just that the Johnson fans claim hilarity when only Johnson fans see the joke.*
* I suppose it's all about what floats you boat
The other day Smithson Jnr recommended a talk by a historian on why Hitler lost WWII, which included this quotation from the Nazi dictator:
"having to change into long trousers was always a misery to me. Even with a temperature of 10 below zero, I used to go about in lederhosen. The feeling of freedom they give you is wonderful. Abandoning my shorts was one of the biggest sacrifices I had to make… Anything up to five degrees below zero I don't even notice. Quite a number of young people of today already wear shorts all the year round; it is just a question of habit. In the future, I shall have an SS Highland Brigade in lederhosen."
I'm the sort of person who will wear shorts all year round. It shouldn't be of any consequence that I have this in common with Hitler, it has no bearing on anti-Semitism. And yet, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
My mum is a classic example of someone won over by Boris being funny. She's pretty old now, and basically apolitical, but she votes for Boris - I asked her why, once. "Because he makes me laugh"
He was good at winning votes I agree less so at doing anything substantive with the power he had
I don't see the confusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_2010
For those who can't do it (SKS, Enoch Powell, Mrs T, Bordon Brown, T May and most people) the only trick that works is don't try.
In other words, he's not Boris Johnson.
On the other hand I do find Mogg spontaneously witty.
"33450. Wow. Up 15%. Not sure what that means"
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1445766495825317892?s=20