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Corbyn Supporters have cooked his goose – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 30 in General
imageCorbyn Supporters have cooked his goose – politicalbetting.com

Getting Jeremy Corbyn back into the Parliamentary Labour Party is the top aim for his supporters but, I believe the way they have conducted their campaign in Brighton last week, has made it impossible for Keir Starmer to restore the Labour Whip.

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,575
    He is prehistory anyway
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461
    FPT:

    At least 116 people have died in Ecuador's worst-ever prison riot as rival drug gangs fought for two days using guns, grenades and knives, the country's president has revealed.

    Six beheaded.

    D Mail.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,675

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    I reckon he'd run as an independent/for another party. Might not make much difference, but I do think the loony left will be a problem for Labour at the next election.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,435
    A disappointment of corbyns.
  • Chris said:

    A disappointment of corbyns.

    An Oooooooh-Ooooooooh of Jeremy Corbyns
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,749
    edited September 30
    They can't even bother to spell Keir Starmer's name correctly.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,833

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,925
    Well, the new Bond movie is worth watching.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,633
    Thanks for the header, Don.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,593
    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Not that strong I suspect, though tbf he was always regarded as a good constituency MP.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    "Level Pegging" for Best PM is a bit of a stretch really


  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927
    Regarding the police.
    20 years ago I reported a car crashing in to a house. Called the police from a payphone. The police arrived on the scene and somehow concluded that I crashed the car. They invented a story that there were witnesses that saw me crash the car. They said that I had refused medical treatment when offered. I just reacted in disbelief and got furious with them. They didn't arrest me, but they never conceded that they had made an error, they just told me to get lost. I started giving them a lecture about how the whole experience was making me lose my trust in democratic society, they just laughed at me.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,575

    They can't even bother to spell Keir Starmer's name correctly.

    Kier Is Exactly Right is how I remember it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393
    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    What chance he, Diane and John McD stand as Indy's or defect to les Verts?
  • Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Would those same activists reliably support Starmer's manifesto?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,593

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Just think the last year or so has changed that. The ‘oh Jeremy Corbyn’ days are long gone - and he’s irredeemably tainted by anti-Semitism now.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,357

    The big victory for Starmer this week has been the marginalisation of the left - a necessary but not sufficient step towards electability. The Andy MacDonald resignation backfired spectacularly.

    The only option remaining for the Corbynistas is to leave and set up their own party. There would be some short-term pain for Labour, but long-term gain. The organisational abilities of the Corbynistas suggest that things would not run particularly smoothly for Momentum-Labour.

    I am very doubtful that the left will leave Labour sufficiently fully to rescue Labour from the taint.

    History suggests that though the left are very bad at winning elections, and usually actively don't want to (like now), enough of them like the buzz of mainstream attention to keep them in a party that could be in power one day.

    History also suggests that the power of the name 'Labour' is immense. Its power saw off giants in the SDP days, compared with whom today's lot are infants. Labour is still the No. 2 UK party, while a younger generation asks "Roy Who?"; "Shirley Who?"

    So splitting (sadly) is unlikely. SKS's big challenge, and which Tories would fear, would be to so reconstitute the party that, keeping the name 'Labour' it sheds the union association, the socialist and loony association and became a boring safe competent social democratic party called Labour.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Thanks Mr Brind.

    I'd have thought a major problem is that some of the most intense Corbyn supporters are the ones who are not as lifelong supporters of Labour. I've always found that odd as Corbyn I have no doubt considers being Labour a core part of his identity, why he stuck with it all this time even though for most of it he was somewhat of an outsider to the powerbrokers of the party.

    But I wonder if one of the impacts is thus while they might say or believe they want what Corbyn wants, him back in the parliamentary party, the more, erm, vocal and expressive don't take that to heart and can take counter productive actions as a result.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Would those same activists reliably support Starmer's manifesto?
    Mostly, yes - there are plenty of people who are basically Labour loyalists but are fond of Jeremy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Chris said:

    A disappointment of corbyns.

    To be fair, Jeremy does appear to be the better Corbyn, out of the two available.,
  • Labour coups are a bit rubbish.

    I remember the 2016 coup, the 2009/10 coup led by 'Buff' Hoon and Patricia Hewitt.

    Can add the 2021 coup.

    Ironically the only coup to have succeeded was the 2006 one that ousted Blair, the only Labour leader to have won a general election in the last 47 years and counting.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,786
    edited September 30
    Even Corbyn tied/level pegged on the best PM metric.

    These things happen, it has to be a sustained lead across all the leadership questions/ratings (and closer to the election) for me to get excited.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/06/12/brits-now-see-corbyn-equally-good-option-prime-min
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Cyclefree said:


    .

    gealbhan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    From a former policewoman - on the WATO today. Women police officers won't speak up because the men "close ranks".

    https://twitter.com/kateemccann/status/1443552130007248897?s=21

    Many of your posts on this concern the failings within the police force for what must have clearly been a bad apple the ranks were closed around? But is there not a problem in wider society outside the police, making this horrendous crime by man on woman far from a one of?

    So what is our way forward cyclefree? You likely have every single man in the country other than Wayne Couzens upset and angry toward this most warped, most selfish and brutal man. What effective action can now be taken, or education and guidance taken on board?

    If he is just a rotten apple in a barrel, a bad egg, do we regard it as important still for boys to be allowed to be boys, and girls should welcome what is hardcoded into their DNA too? As per the current and traditional teaching, To become a man a boy needs to know how to have a presence, how to have a power - and their courage must never be demeaned by anybody?
    I do not have any easy answers. I made some suggestions here - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/03/14/one-womans-perspective/.

    I have been blessed in my life to have had men in my family who behaved like gentlemen - in the proper sense of that word. They were not in any sense lesser men for behaving with decency and respect. And yet they had authority and courage and presence too and, if necessary, did fight. to defend country and family.

    There are people who are evil but most of us have the capacity to be both bad and good and what we constantly have to do is to try and reinforce the good side of us and minimise the bad. I think often that bad side is praised or indulged or treated as a bit of a joke or boys being boys etc. And when that is the prevailing culture are we really surprised that some take this to a level which results in harm?

    There is a pornification of our society which I find deeply troubling. Women are seen as objects to be used, as something to be screwed, in that revolting phrase, as if sex was like screwing a nail to a wall, something that is done repetitively and brutally to a woman, not with her. I will be told that some women like porn. And maybe some do.

    But let me leave you with one thought. Maybe women say they like porn because that is what they think the man wants them to say, because that is how they get the man. They feel they need to say this. They are stroking his ego not expressing their own desires. Watch that Panorama programme about attacks on girls in school. Girls want to be loved and desired by boys so they will do stuff that boys ask. And where are boys getting their ideas from? There is a violence in porn which, to me, seems anathema to what really satisfying sex is like.

    Perhaps I am hopelessly old-fashioned in saying this. But it needs saying. In the 12 months to August in London alone the police recorded 8,222 rapes. Whatever "respect" training we've been giving people clearly isn't working.
    Just a quick post to say Thank you Cyclefree for the very thoughtful response tackling the question. By the number of likes, it was appreciated by many.

    one of the questions you asked, is there Pornification, your word implies new direction, rather than thing older even than Susannah and the elders? Or is it our technological renaissance enables preexisting chauvinism and voyeurism, into a quite new dilemma?

    [insert story of Suffragette leader reimagined by pre Raphaelite painter as a nude (as a gentlemen’s club commission) I know is out there but once again can’t find] and ask:
    Is the patriarchal really encoded into DNA, so only through the most acute nurture the resultant gentlemen triumphs over his inner arrogant sex pest?

    Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated. Is Berger True today? will it always be true? Is it Something to change? Are we (hopefully) living a zeitgeist that can awake to something previously ignored, and achieve change?

    https://www.ways-of-seeing.com/ch3
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,833

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Not that strong I suspect, though tbf he was always regarded as a good constituency MP.
    That was sort of my question - there’s this accepted view that he’s a really good constituency Mp, spends loads of time there etc.

    We shall see if that makes a difference
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441

    Even Corbyn tied/level pegged on the best PM metric.

    These things happen, it has to be a sustained lead across all the leadership questions/ratings (and closer to the election) for me to get excited.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/06/12/brits-now-see-corbyn-equally-good-option-prime-min

    What's all this "First time it's happened in 13 years"? Is that just with IPSOS-MORI?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Though there have been many MPs older than him and he seems in good enough shape, I'd have wondered if this was going to be Corbyn's last parliament in any case. He can still do plenty of campaigning outside it.

    He only needs to wait for five others to move on before he can be Father of the House though
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,675
    It's interesting that Islington North is one of the few London seats to not have big changes to it in the proposed boundary changes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704

    They can't even bother to spell Keir Starmer's name correctly.

    So they actually are like most people.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,357
    kle4 said:

    Thanks Mr Brind.

    I'd have thought a major problem is that some of the most intense Corbyn supporters are the ones who are not as lifelong supporters of Labour. I've always found that odd as Corbyn I have no doubt considers being Labour a core part of his identity, why he stuck with it all this time even though for most of it he was somewhat of an outsider to the powerbrokers of the party.

    But I wonder if one of the impacts is thus while they might say or believe they want what Corbyn wants, him back in the parliamentary party, the more, erm, vocal and expressive don't take that to heart and can take counter productive actions as a result.

    While, mostly, the left don't want actual power and its associated responsibility in a democracy like ours, and go out of their way to put voters off (2017, which they still lost, is an interesting aberration as they occasionally looked as if they wanted to win) they still as individuals like having jobs and careers in politics. Labour offer the only route to this in England and Wales.

    As to Corbyn, Brexit found him out. A lifelong committed anti EU Brexiteer it was not convenient for him politically to campaign for the left socialist anti EU case. So he didn't. And it made him look terrible.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,633
    .
    Foxy said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
    His membership has been restored, just not the whip.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,833

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Foxy said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
    Could be, but does that mean Starmer 'has' to let him be?

    I'm surprised Starmer has stayed so firm on it, but I whilst admittedly I don't know the labrynthe internal rules of the Labour party, it's not unherd of for someone to be a party member but not be part of a council grouping for example, and the group can often technically have some say.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074
    Corbyn’s goose is cooked.

    I think Starmer had previously stuffed him.

    But we all knew he was a turkey.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074
    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
    Would be funny as fuck to watch him stand and lose, especially if a split vote and a bit of tacit help from the local Tories let the Liberal Democrats in.
  • isam said:

    Even Corbyn tied/level pegged on the best PM metric.

    These things happen, it has to be a sustained lead across all the leadership questions/ratings (and closer to the election) for me to get excited.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/06/12/brits-now-see-corbyn-equally-good-option-prime-min

    What's all this "First time it's happened in 13 years"? Is that just with IPSOS-MORI?
    Yes.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-boris-johnson-ipsos-mori-poll-b957432.html
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,357
    edited September 30
    Foxy said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
    That was a mistake then and a mistake now. There may have been a time when it was possible to see the left as a decent but divergent strand of Labourism, to be cherished and tolerated, even listened to a bit, but Momentum, Corbynism, anti- semitism and recent infiltration has destroyed that.

    Most UK voters are moderate centrists (a fact which has been repeatedly ignored in the ludicrous heat of the Remain/Brexit debate in which two moderate sides have tended to see each other as extreme). Under SKS Labour have a chance to be heard again as part of that moderate centrist debate.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
    That was a mistake then and a mistake now. There may have been a time when it was possible to see the left as a decent but divergent strand of Labourism, to be cherished and tolerated, even listened to a bit, but Momentum, Corbynism, anti- semitism and recent infiltration has destroyed that.

    Most UK voters are moderate centrists (a fact which has been repeated ignored in the ludicrous heat of the Remain/Brexit debate in which two moderate sides have tended to see each other as extreme). Under SKS Labour have a chance to be heard again as part of that moderate centrist debate.

    Wasn’t it Hilary Armstrong who tried to persuade Blair to withdraw the whip from Corbyn on the grounds that he was voting against it more often than the Tories were?
  • ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    He has to be readmitted. He was a backbencher under Blair, so could be under Starmer.
    That was a mistake then and a mistake now. There may have been a time when it was possible to see the left as a decent but divergent strand of Labourism, to be cherished and tolerated, even listened to a bit, but Momentum, Corbynism, anti- semitism and recent infiltration has destroyed that.

    Most UK voters are moderate centrists (a fact which has been repeated ignored in the ludicrous heat of the Remain/Brexit debate in which two moderate sides have tended to see each other as extreme). Under SKS Labour have a chance to be heard again as part of that moderate centrist debate.

    Wasn’t it Hilary Armstrong who tried to persuade Blair to withdraw the whip from Corbyn on the grounds that he was voting against it more often than the Tories were?
    Did the same not apply to John McD?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,353
    Maybe the old fool will set up his own party with Cummings overseeing it?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,393
    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
    He'll be pleased to take the whip if it's offered to him; currently the Chief Whip declines to do so. And being a Labour candidate means being the candidate of the Labour Party chosen by the body appointed to select candidates, namely the CLP. What the Chief Whip decides to do is a matter for him.

    As kle4 points out, there are councillors elected on one ticket or another who fall out with their colleagues - they don't thereby become un-councillors or ineligible for reselection. Personally, I think Starmer should have a "unity amnesty" and sweep up readmitting diverse people who defected from Labour under Corbyn and let them back in at the same time as readmitting him to the whip - people have got the point that Starmer isn't Corbyn and this stuff is just a tiresome distraction.
  • ydoethur said:

    Corbyn’s goose is cooked.

    I think Starmer had previously stuffed him.

    But we all knew he was a turkey.

    Leslie Nielsen: "Nice goose!"
    Priscilla Presley: "Thanks, I just had it stuffed!"
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,353
    edited September 30

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
    He'll be pleased to take the whip if it's offered to him; currently the Chief Whip declines to do so. And being a Labour candidate means being the candidate of the Labour Party chosen by the body appointed to select candidates, namely the CLP. What the Chief Whip decides to do is a matter for him.

    As kle4 points out, there are councillors elected on one ticket or another who fall out with their colleagues - they don't thereby become un-councillors or ineligible for reselection. Personally, I think Starmer should have a "unity amnesty" and sweep up readmitting diverse people who defected from Labour under Corbyn and let them back in at the same time as readmitting him to the whip - people have got the point that Starmer isn't Corbyn and this stuff is just a tiresome distraction.
    Well you went from #TeamTone to #TeamJez since PB started... so you've been on quite a journey yourself ;)
  • gealbhan said:

    Cyclefree said:


    .

    gealbhan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    From a former policewoman - on the WATO today. Women police officers won't speak up because the men "close ranks".

    https://twitter.com/kateemccann/status/1443552130007248897?s=21

    Many of your posts on this concern the failings within the police force for what must have clearly been a bad apple the ranks were closed around? But is there not a problem in wider society outside the police, making this horrendous crime by man on woman far from a one of?

    So what is our way forward cyclefree? You likely have every single man in the country other than Wayne Couzens upset and angry toward this most warped, most selfish and brutal man. What effective action can now be taken, or education and guidance taken on board?

    If he is just a rotten apple in a barrel, a bad egg, do we regard it as important still for boys to be allowed to be boys, and girls should welcome what is hardcoded into their DNA too? As per the current and traditional teaching, To become a man a boy needs to know how to have a presence, how to have a power - and their courage must never be demeaned by anybody?
    I do not have any easy answers. I made some suggestions here - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/03/14/one-womans-perspective/.

    I have been blessed in my life to have had men in my family who behaved like gentlemen - in the proper sense of that word. They were not in any sense lesser men for behaving with decency and respect. And yet they had authority and courage and presence too and, if necessary, did fight. to defend country and family.

    There are people who are evil but most of us have the capacity to be both bad and good and what we constantly have to do is to try and reinforce the good side of us and minimise the bad. I think often that bad side is praised or indulged or treated as a bit of a joke or boys being boys etc. And when that is the prevailing culture are we really surprised that some take this to a level which results in harm?

    There is a pornification of our society which I find deeply troubling. Women are seen as objects to be used, as something to be screwed, in that revolting phrase, as if sex was like screwing a nail to a wall, something that is done repetitively and brutally to a woman, not with her. I will be told that some women like porn. And maybe some do.

    But let me leave you with one thought. Maybe women say they like porn because that is what they think the man wants them to say, because that is how they get the man. They feel they need to say this. They are stroking his ego not expressing their own desires. Watch that Panorama programme about attacks on girls in school. Girls want to be loved and desired by boys so they will do stuff that boys ask. And where are boys getting their ideas from? There is a violence in porn which, to me, seems anathema to what really satisfying sex is like.

    Perhaps I am hopelessly old-fashioned in saying this. But it needs saying. In the 12 months to August in London alone the police recorded 8,222 rapes. Whatever "respect" training we've been giving people clearly isn't working.
    Just a quick post to say Thank you Cyclefree for the very thoughtful response tackling the question. By the number of likes, it was appreciated by many.

    one of the questions you asked, is there Pornification, your word implies new direction, rather than thing older even than Susannah and the elders? Or is it our technological renaissance enables preexisting chauvinism and voyeurism, into a quite new dilemma?

    [insert story of Suffragette leader reimagined by pre Raphaelite painter as a nude (as a gentlemen’s club commission) I know is out there but once again can’t find] and ask:
    Is the patriarchal really encoded into DNA, so only through the most acute nurture the resultant gentlemen triumphs over his inner arrogant sex pest?

    Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated. Is Berger True today? will it always be true? Is it Something to change? Are we (hopefully) living a zeitgeist that can awake to something previously ignored, and achieve change?

    https://www.ways-of-seeing.com/ch3
    In answer to your last question I don't believe the patriarchal is encoded into the DNA. I don't consider my upbringing or that of any of my friends to have been particularly acute in terms of how we view women. My education in women was one of 'different but equal'. It is the same basic premise that underlies how we treat every section of society whether we differ in terms of gender, race or ability. But it was an education that was delivered by example not lecture. That seems to me to be the key in so many things. Not leading by example but teaching by example.
  • Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    I agree with that. Dick Taverne and Eddie Milne held their seats against official Labour candidates in February 1974 and Dave Nellist came very close to doing so in 1992. Corbyn's personal vote will surely be even stronger.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,833

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
    He'll be pleased to take the whip if it's offered to him; currently the Chief Whip declines to do so. And being a Labour candidate means being the candidate of the Labour Party chosen by the body appointed to select candidates, namely the CLP. What the Chief Whip decides to do is a matter for him.

    As kle4 points out, there are councillors elected on one ticket or another who fall out with their colleagues - they don't thereby become un-councillors or ineligible for reselection. Personally, I think Starmer should have a "unity amnesty" and sweep up readmitting diverse people who defected from Labour under Corbyn and let them back in at the same time as readmitting him to the whip - people have got the point that Starmer isn't Corbyn and this stuff is just a tiresome distraction.
    It’s distinctly odd standing as candidate for a party and then not sitting with them
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    There he... there he... there he fucking goes.
  • jamesa1966jamesa1966 Posts: 3
    edited September 30
    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    Sandpit said:

    Well, the new Bond movie is worth watching.

    The reviews I've seen have been less than kind.
  • 26% of delegates to the Labour Party Conference voted against the agreed EHRC action plan to remove the anti-semitism scurge from the party. A quarter. Whilst the hard left screwed up and screwed up badly, there are still a significant number of them. Delegates chosen by their local parties as their best representatives to vote for continuing anti-semitism.

    Starmer needs to go much much further.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    I haven't been following that closely. What did he lie about?
  • 26% of delegates to the Labour Party Conference voted against the agreed EHRC action plan to remove the anti-semitism scurge from the party. A quarter. Whilst the hard left screwed up and screwed up badly, there are still a significant number of them. Delegates chosen by their local parties as their best representatives to vote for continuing anti-semitism.

    Starmer needs to go much much further.

    They're like a cancer in the body of the Labour Party.

    You have to get rid of them all or they can metastasise and come back even harder.
  • Farooq said:

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    I haven't been following that closely. What did he lie about?
    Owen's on the case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/30/breaking-promises-keir-starmer-power-new-labour-political-strategists
  • Farooq said:

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    I haven't been following that closely. What did he lie about?
    The renationalisation of the Energy industries. We now have the absurd position where this Tory Government is happier to extend Public Ownership and engage in wider Government intervention than would be likely under a Government led by Starmer!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well, the new Bond movie is worth watching.

    The reviews I've seen have been less than kind.
    I’m waiting to see if @TSE likes it.

    If he does, then we can be sure it’s not worth watching.
    He’s saving it up for Xmas….
  • Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Jeremy Corbyn running in Islington North as an independent would probably win his seat - I agree with that. Your comment about "hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him" is interesting is it not?

    These are not the kind of people the Labour Party wants knocking on doors asking people for their vote. Nor do they have any interest in the Labour Party if they are so easily swayed to go and campaign against it as so many have them have done pre-2015.

    I do not understand how you are so caught up in this. These people are not "the left". They are entryists trying to destroy your party - a good and true party.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,931
    Regarding the undersea HVDC cables discussed on the last thread, they’ll probably be delivered by these guys:
    https://www.prysmiangroup.com/en/markets/utilities-and-power-grids/hv-and-submarine-power-transmission/product-technology-innovation
  • Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well, the new Bond movie is worth watching.

    The reviews I've seen have been less than kind.
    I’m waiting to see if @TSE likes it.

    If he does, then we can be sure it’s not worth watching.
    He’s saving it up for Xmas….
    Saving it up for next Thursday.
  • Welcome jamesa1966!

    Agreed with your premier post NOT because I like Corbyn, never could and never can stand the Yard Gnome With the Clenched Fist.

    What I like is your agreement with NPxMP's assessment of JC's personal vote in his constituency.

    Which of course is influenced somewhat by Nick's partiality for Corbyn - a faith that passeth understanding in my view - but is also buttressed by actual contact with Isslington voters.

    And am sure few PBers doubt that Mr Palmer is an experienced, assiduous & highly effective door-to-door canvasser and chatter-upper of likely voters!
  • Still my absolute favourite moment in Bond, if not cinematic, history. I needed oxygen in the cinema when I first watched it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw

    If No Time To Die tops this then I'll be a very happy man.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,357
    edited September 30

    26% of delegates to the Labour Party Conference voted against the agreed EHRC action plan to remove the anti-semitism scurge from the party. A quarter. Whilst the hard left screwed up and screwed up badly, there are still a significant number of them. Delegates chosen by their local parties as their best representatives to vote for continuing anti-semitism.

    Starmer needs to go much much further.

    Is this his moment to turn the Labour party into a proper social democratic party of the centre left and renounce the socialist legacy? It is continuing to make Labour unelectable.

    I vote Labour, for decent local candidates, in local elections but not general elections. The anti-semitism thing makes me wonder whether I am complicit in an anti-semitic movement even with the limited support I give them. I would be sorry to come to that conclusion as there are some good people in Labour round here.

    But it is telling that in Cumbria there are four seats (out of 6) that ought to be Labour (Copeland, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle), and all have been, and none currently are. It's not just me.

  • Craig had one really flawless, superb outing in Casino Royale, 15 years ago.

    Can we bring back Martin Campbell for the next one? He saved Bond twice, Goldeneye and Casino Royale
  • This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    What happens if the Greens' leader(s) get(s) caught telling lies before then?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    Farooq said:

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    I haven't been following that closely. What did he lie about?
    Owen's on the case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/30/breaking-promises-keir-starmer-power-new-labour-political-strategists
    I'm sorry, I tried. I made it halfway through before I stopped.
    It's unfair of me, but I just can't stand Owen Jones.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    Still my absolute favourite moment in Bond, if not cinematic, history. I needed oxygen in the cinema when I first watched it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw

    If No Time To Die tops this then I'll be a very happy man.

    You've only seen one film?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074

    Still my absolute favourite moment in Bond, if not cinematic, history. I needed oxygen in the cinema when I first watched it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw

    If No Time To Die tops this then I'll be a very happy man.

    Oxygen has that effect.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    I haven't been following that closely. What did he lie about?
    Owen's on the case.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/30/breaking-promises-keir-starmer-power-new-labour-political-strategists
    I'm sorry, I tried. I made it halfway through before I stopped.
    It's unfair of me, but I just can't stand Owen Jones.
    I like him. He's wrong, but he's sincere. A reasonable left voice in the media. Unlike the Bastani and the rest of the Socialist Worker types at Novara.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited September 30
    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    There are no shortages. It is not the fault of Brexit...

    UK supply chain problems spread deeper into the agriculture sector
    https://on.ft.com/3F6cLBL
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    Exc: Boris Johnson is under fresh pressure to get a grip on the energy crisis as a poll shows 69% of Tory voters fear a hard winter

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/16294094/boris-johnson-face-fresh-pressure-to-fix-energy-crisis/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074

    This week's Conference has persuaded me to Vote Green at the next GE. Johnson has lied repeatedly to the country - now we find that Starmer lied to his party during the Leadership contest.

    What happens if the Greens' leader(s) get(s) caught telling lies before then?
    We’ll all feel something like this:

    https://youtu.be/wxlhyX-4qKI

    And we’ll also feel that way when Justin, formerly of this parish, says something similar and then constantly votes Labour after all.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Jeremy Corbyn running in Islington North as an independent would probably win his seat - I agree with that. Your comment about "hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him" is interesting is it not?

    These are not the kind of people the Labour Party wants knocking on doors asking people for their vote. Nor do they have any interest in the Labour Party if they are so easily swayed to go and campaign against it as so many have them have done pre-2015.

    I do not understand how you are so caught up in this. These people are not "the left". They are entryists trying to destroy your party - a good and true party.
    FPTP encourages entryism. Labour has only got itself to blame.
  • Farooq said:

    Still my absolute favourite moment in Bond, if not cinematic, history. I needed oxygen in the cinema when I first watched it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw

    If No Time To Die tops this then I'll be a very happy man.

    You've only seen one film?
    Pre plague I used to see around 100 films a year at the cinema.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,403
    algarkirk said:

    26% of delegates to the Labour Party Conference voted against the agreed EHRC action plan to remove the anti-semitism scurge from the party. A quarter. Whilst the hard left screwed up and screwed up badly, there are still a significant number of them. Delegates chosen by their local parties as their best representatives to vote for continuing anti-semitism.

    Starmer needs to go much much further.

    Is this his moment to turn the Labour party into a proper social democratic party of the centre left and renounce the socialist legacy? It is continuing to make Labour unelectable.

    I vote Labour, for decent local candidates, in local elections but not general elections. The anti-semitism thing makes me wonder whether I am complicit in an anti-semitic movement even with the limited support I give them. I would be sorry to come to that conclusion as there are some good people in Labour round here.

    But it is telling that in Cumbria there are four seats (out of 6) that ought to be Labour (Copeland, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle), and all have been, and none currently are. It's not just me.

    What does "ought to be Labour" mean?
    Isn't that kind of thing part of the problem?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074
    edited September 30
    HYUFD said:

    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't

    1) Corbyn wasn’t ex-leader under Blair

    2) Corbyn had been accused of antisemitism and IRA support but he was so irrelevant nobody really cared

    3) Corbyn hadn’t flat out lied about an outside agency to deflect blame from a highly critical report, having agreed not to do something twattish like that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited September 30
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't

    1) Corbyn wasn’t ex-leader under Blair

    2) Corbyn had been accused of antisemitism and IRA support but he was so irrelevant nobody really cared

    3) Corbyn hadn’t flat out lied about an outside agency to deflect blame from a highly critical report, having agreed not to do something twattish like that.
    May and IDS are ex Tory leaders and are still in the Tory party. Boris and May loathe each other but there is no question of Boris expelling her.

    Corbyn's history and views were well know even in the New Labour era.

    Corbyn has had his suspension and served his time.

    All expelling him would do would be to send more leftwingers from Labour to the Greens
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't

    1) Corbyn wasn’t ex-leader under Blair

    2) Corbyn had been accused of antisemitism and IRA support but he was so irrelevant nobody really cared

    3) Corbyn hadn’t flat out lied about an outside agency to deflect blame from a highly critical report, having agreed not to do something twattish like that.
    May and IDS were ex Tory leaders and are still the Tory party.

    Corbyn's history and views were well know even in the New Labour era.

    Corbyn has had his suspension and served his time.

    All expelling him would do would be to send more leftwingers from Labour to the Greens
    May and IDS have been accused of anti-semitism? I’ve missed that one.

    Yes, and he was irrelevant. He was a minor figure who kept himself vaguely relevant by stroking the androgynous zones of the far left. He is no longer irrelevant.

    He was suspended. The suspension was to be withdrawn on his accepting the report and showing contrition for his past misdeeds. Instead, he behaved like you on being shown proof positive you are wrong on a point of geography. He didn’t so much double as sextuple down. Including by telling a number of utterly transparent lies about political influence on the report.

    Starmer therefore kept the whip withdrawn. And will do so for good, I suspect.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't

    1) Corbyn wasn’t ex-leader under Blair

    2) Corbyn had been accused of antisemitism and IRA support but he was so irrelevant nobody really cared

    3) Corbyn hadn’t flat out lied about an outside agency to deflect blame from a highly critical report, having agreed not to do something twattish like that.
    May and IDS are ex Tory leaders and are still in the Tory party. Boris and May loathe each other but there is no question of Boris expelling her.

    Corbyn's history and views were well know even in the New Labour era.

    Corbyn has had his suspension and served his time.

    All expelling him would do would be to send more leftwingers from Labour to the Greens
    I wonder why a die-hard Conservative would want the whip returned to Corbyn 🤔
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    From a practical point of view, a Corbyn within the party is less trouble than one outside. I am sure that he would happily take the whip again.

    In the PLP he would no doubt occasionally attract some bad publicity, but mostly he would be an impotent visible symbol of Starmers hegemony, as a sort of vassal presence.

    He might even be useful if given a role that suits his talents as an agitator, as long as it is a million miles away from anything to do with the Middle East.
  • Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,074

    Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.

    First to fourth on the size of membership ranking in just 24 hours?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,774

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Jeremy Corbyn running in Islington North as an independent would probably win his seat - I agree with that. Your comment about "hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him" is interesting is it not?

    These are not the kind of people the Labour Party wants knocking on doors asking people for their vote. Nor do they have any interest in the Labour Party if they are so easily swayed to go and campaign against it as so many have them have done pre-2015.

    I do not understand how you are so caught up in this. These people are not "the left". They are entryists trying to destroy your party - a good and true party.
    It sounds like an independent Corbyn campaign in Islington North would be a very useful thing for Labour.

    If some of the card carrying lefties remain in the party by GE time, loudly and repeatedly ask Labour members all over the country please to not go and campaign for Jeremy Corbyn, keep a close eye on the Corbyn campaign, and then expel the lot of them for opposing a Labour candidate.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.

    Reluctantly, I would have to agree with that verdict, but it is rather like having to decide an order of precedence between a slug, a cockroach, a rat, a louse, a tick and a tapeworm.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,461

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    Incideentally, I don't think that's correct. Selection as a candidate is nothing to do with what the Chief Whip decides. If you're a member of the Party and have been for 3 years, you're eligible for selection. And the chance of the CLP not selecting him if they have the chance is zero.
    That’s getting pretty close to electoral fraud by misrepresentation.

    “I’m the labour candidate”
    “Will you take the whip?”
    “No”

    What does it mean to be the “labour candidate” if you are not part of the labour parliamentary party
    He'll be pleased to take the whip if it's offered to him; currently the Chief Whip declines to do so. And being a Labour candidate means being the candidate of the Labour Party chosen by the body appointed to select candidates, namely the CLP. What the Chief Whip decides to do is a matter for him.

    As kle4 points out, there are councillors elected on one ticket or another who fall out with their colleagues - they don't thereby become un-councillors or ineligible for reselection. Personally, I think Starmer should have a "unity amnesty" and sweep up readmitting diverse people who defected from Labour under Corbyn and let them back in at the same time as readmitting him to the whip - people have got the point that Starmer isn't Corbyn and this stuff is just a tiresome distraction.
    Don't candidates have to be rubber stamped by the NEC?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    edited September 30
    Pro_Rata said:

    Charles said:

    Just needs to keep him off the Whip until the next selection round for GE 2023/4.

    Then iirc he can't stand in the People's Republic of Islington and it's goodbye...

    We might see how strong his personal vote is.
    Very strong - when I lived there I often canvassed people who stressed that they were only voting for him, not the party. I'd put money on his winning. What is a nuisance for the party is that hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him.
    Jeremy Corbyn running in Islington North as an independent would probably win his seat - I agree with that. Your comment about "hundreds of activists would divert from marginals to go and help him" is interesting is it not?

    These are not the kind of people the Labour Party wants knocking on doors asking people for their vote. Nor do they have any interest in the Labour Party if they are so easily swayed to go and campaign against it as so many have them have done pre-2015.

    I do not understand how you are so caught up in this. These people are not "the left". They are entryists trying to destroy your party - a good and true party.
    It sounds like an independent Corbyn campaign in Islington North would be a very useful thing for Labour.

    If some of the card carrying lefties remain in the party by GE time, loudly and repeatedly ask Labour members all over the country please to not go and campaign for Jeremy Corbyn, keep a close eye on the Corbyn campaign, and then expel the lot of them for opposing a Labour candidate.
    I am old enough to remember Livingstone winning against Frank Dobson as an independent.

    Indeed, Corbyn should consider running for Mayor. He might well win.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,357
    dixiedean said:

    algarkirk said:

    26% of delegates to the Labour Party Conference voted against the agreed EHRC action plan to remove the anti-semitism scurge from the party. A quarter. Whilst the hard left screwed up and screwed up badly, there are still a significant number of them. Delegates chosen by their local parties as their best representatives to vote for continuing anti-semitism.

    Starmer needs to go much much further.

    Is this his moment to turn the Labour party into a proper social democratic party of the centre left and renounce the socialist legacy? It is continuing to make Labour unelectable.

    I vote Labour, for decent local candidates, in local elections but not general elections. The anti-semitism thing makes me wonder whether I am complicit in an anti-semitic movement even with the limited support I give them. I would be sorry to come to that conclusion as there are some good people in Labour round here.

    But it is telling that in Cumbria there are four seats (out of 6) that ought to be Labour (Copeland, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle), and all have been, and none currently are. It's not just me.

    What does "ought to be Labour" mean?
    Isn't that kind of thing part of the problem?
    You are right. It was loosely put. These are seats which typically had strong Labour support, and there is every reason to think they would have a lot more if Labour had been more balanced about Brexit, didn't harbour extremists and became a social democratic party without anti-semitic baggage, and made a better offer than Tories do to the middling sort.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,774
    Foxy said:

    Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.

    Reluctantly, I would have to agree with that verdict, but it is rather like having to decide an order of precedence between a slug, a cockroach, a rat, a louse, a tick and a tapeworm.
    You have already ordered that list, haven't you?
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Blair was able to keep Corbyn in the Labour party without expelling him, not sure why Starmer can't

    1) Corbyn wasn’t ex-leader under Blair

    2) Corbyn had been accused of antisemitism and IRA support but he was so irrelevant nobody really cared

    3) Corbyn hadn’t flat out lied about an outside agency to deflect blame from a highly critical report, having agreed not to do something twattish like that.
    May and IDS were ex Tory leaders and are still the Tory party.

    Corbyn's history and views were well know even in the New Labour era.

    Corbyn has had his suspension and served his time.

    All expelling him would do would be to send more leftwingers from Labour to the Greens
    May and IDS have been accused of anti-semitism? I’ve missed that one.

    Yes, and he was irrelevant. He was a minor figure who kept himself vaguely relevant by stroking the androgynous zones of the far left. He is no longer irrelevant.

    He was suspended. The suspension was to be withdrawn on his accepting the report and showing contrition for his past misdeeds. Instead, he behaved like you on being shown proof positive you are wrong on a point of geography. He didn’t so much double as sextuple down. Including by telling a number of utterly transparent lies about political influence on the report.

    Starmer therefore kept the whip withdrawn. And will do so for good, I suspect.
    And that's the point. Had Jez said sorry, Labour would pretty much have had to take him back. Even if it had been basically like this;

    https://youtu.be/kJqziTVLNoo


    But the vain old fool was too vain to even do that. Probably for the best.
  • Foxy said:

    Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.

    Reluctantly, I would have to agree with that verdict, but it is rather like having to decide an order of precedence between a slug, a cockroach, a rat, a louse, a tick and a tapeworm.
    Hope you are keeping well Foxy.
  • I'm just about to tuck into an experiment I've been slowly cooking for a few hours. I've made a quite spicy chicken curry inside a 5 kilo Muscat de Provence squash that I grew in the garden.

    If it works well I've got one that's about three times bigger I'm going to cook for a Halloween party. I might need a bigger oven!

    Curry slowly cooked inside squash is delicious!

    I'm pretty sure it needs to be a hot curry though, otherwise the squash would be too sweet.

    I got the idea from a US cooking site I happened to find that had a recipe for cooking a Halloween chilli inside a pumpkin
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142
    Foxy said:

    Tony Blair was the greatest PM of the last thirty years. If a Labour member cannot agree with that, then they should resign from the party immediately.

    Reluctantly, I would have to agree with that verdict, but it is rather like having to decide an order of precedence between a slug, a cockroach, a rat, a louse, a tick and a tapeworm.
    Tapeworm 1992-1997
    Cockroach 1997-2007
    Louse 2007-2010
    Tick 2010-2016
    Rat 2016-2019
    Slug 2019-

    Is that right?
This discussion has been closed.