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Post conference speech poll looks positive for Starmer – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 30 in General
imagePost conference speech poll looks positive for Starmer – politicalbetting.com

I never know what to make of quickie polls like this but Opinium’s one following yesterday’s Starmer speech look good for the LAB leader especially when compared with first conference speeches from BoJo and Corbyn.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    I havent much of it but it sounded like he was hitting the right targets.

    Be good if he could sort Labour out so I feel I have a positive choice of parties. Tories need to be kept on their toes.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    Am interested to hear the details of these hardship grants Sunak is said to introducing. I presume this is a recognition of the impact of the £20 UC cut and he can do this without shouts of U-turn.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    I wonder how many actual voters watched the speech. I certainly didn't, but then I have other things on my mind at the moment.
    Whether anything Starmer has said or done has made any difference, I do not know. The left is there ...and will harry Starmer at every turn.it will be the majing or breaking of him.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,128

    That will be the same Johnson who scored less than both Corbyn and Starmer on this metric - but then went on shortly afterwards to get an 80 seat majority?

    Yep, a real indicator this one....

    Yes, but what is the change in Starmer’s ratings ?
    I don’t have the polls to hand, but those numbers look to be a very significant improvement.

    Next year or so the economy is quite likely to piss off a large part of Johnson’s base. A Starmer alternative is starting to seem as though it might be considerably less unpalatable to voters than was Corbyn.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,128
    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,041
    Anecdata…..taxi driver this morning also works as Funeral Director - he’s had more suicides than COVID deaths….but that never gets any publicity….
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,535
    Nigelb said:

    That will be the same Johnson who scored less than both Corbyn and Starmer on this metric - but then went on shortly afterwards to get an 80 seat majority?

    Yep, a real indicator this one....

    Yes, but what is the change in Starmer’s ratings ?
    I don’t have the polls to hand, but those numbers look to be a very significant improvement.

    Next year or so the economy is quite likely to piss off a large part of Johnson’s base. A Starmer alternative is starting to seem as though it might be considerably less unpalatable to voters than was Corbyn.
    When you "yes, but...", you're losing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,041
    Thread on the criticism levelled at this poll:

    I haven't really had enough sleep to get into a big argument with people who always try to disingenuously trash any data that disagrees with their point of view, but a few tweets, which I am sure will be taken out of context...

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1443300555011600386?s=21
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,128

    Nigelb said:

    That will be the same Johnson who scored less than both Corbyn and Starmer on this metric - but then went on shortly afterwards to get an 80 seat majority?

    Yep, a real indicator this one....

    Yes, but what is the change in Starmer’s ratings ?
    I don’t have the polls to hand, but those numbers look to be a very significant improvement.

    Next year or so the economy is quite likely to piss off a large part of Johnson’s base. A Starmer alternative is starting to seem as though it might be considerably less unpalatable to voters than was Corbyn.
    When you "yes, but...", you're losing.
    Nonsense, but please yourself.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003
    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,536
    Starmer sounded better almost as if he's trying to get some policies, but he' still as dull as dishwater .

  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
    Nice one. My wife is the opposite. The last bond film I saw was a Brosnan one. Cant remember which.

    I'd like to see Dune but she's not up for that either.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003
    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
  • ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    However, the supermarket sector isn’t capitalistic, it is oligopolistic. That is, the members of it use their buying power in effective if never spoken agreement to keep prices artificially low. That is not capitalism, where prices would find an equilibrium based on the minimum cost of production compared to the maximum people are willing to pay.

    Good for consumers in the short term, but bad for producers (and therefore, as we are finding out, bad for consumers in the long term).
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
    Enjoy! I'm hoping to go and see it. Our youngest (9) is probably too young and the rest of the family has varying degrees of enthusiasm. It's the kind of film you need to see on the big screen. Craig is the best Bond since Connery, imho. It sounds like it's a good one, too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    However, the supermarket sector isn’t capitalistic, it is oligopolistic. That is, the members of it use their buying power in effective if never spoken agreement to keep prices artificially low. That is not capitalism, where prices would find an equilibrium based on the minimum cost of production compared to the maximum people are willing to pay.

    Good for consumers in the short term, but bad for producers (and therefore, as we are finding out, bad for consumers in the long term).
    Oligopoly, monopoly and perfect competition are all forms of capitalism. Marx argued that monopoly/oligopoly were the system's natural state, which seems plausible - it generally requires state intervention to prevent it. Smith argued that producers, left to their own devices, would collude to stifle competition, which also seems to be borne out by reality. My own view is that capitalism shouldn't be left to the capitalists - the end point would be utter misery for 99% of humanity and ultimately the capitalists themselves would be swinging from lampposts.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,881

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
    Nice one. My wife is the opposite. The last bond film I saw was a Brosnan one. Cant remember which.

    I'd like to see Dune but she's not up for that either.
    There are few things that feel like such an indulgent treat as going to the cinema on your own.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    You get today's prize for wilful mischaracterisation of your opponent's position.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    You get today's prize for wilful mischaracterisation of your opponent's position.
    :D I’ll wear the badge with pride!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,881

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    I’m sure the marginal cost of heating bills pales into insignificance, when compared to the price of train tickets, coffees and lunches associated with going back to the office.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
    Nice one. My wife is the opposite. The last bond film I saw was a Brosnan one. Cant remember which.

    I'd like to see Dune but she's not up for that either.
    Literally thousands of books came into our marriage. On review, other than some boring law texts, the one book that was duplicated was Dune. My wife lost enthusiasm for the sequels, whilst God Emperor probably remains my favourite, but she loved the original. I can only hope this attempt at a film is better than the earlier efforts.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    I’m sure the marginal cost of heating bills pales into insignificance, when compared to the price of train tickets, coffees and lunches associated with going back to the office.
    Especially when you’re paying for heating at home for your parents.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Dont tell the Greens.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    edited September 30

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    However, the supermarket sector isn’t capitalistic, it is oligopolistic. That is, the members of it use their buying power in effective if never spoken agreement to keep prices artificially low. That is not capitalism, where prices would find an equilibrium based on the minimum cost of production compared to the maximum people are willing to pay.

    Good for consumers in the short term, but bad for producers (and therefore, as we are finding out, bad for consumers in the long term).
    Oligopoly, monopoly and perfect competition are all forms of capitalism. Marx argued that monopoly/oligopoly were the system's natural state, which seems plausible - it generally requires state intervention to prevent it. Smith argued that producers, left to their own devices, would collude to stifle competition, which also seems to be borne out by reality. My own view is that capitalism shouldn't be left to the capitalists - the end point would be utter misery for 99% of humanity and ultimately the capitalists themselves would be swinging from lampposts.
    Pure capitalism is a bit like pure Marxism - nobody has ever really tried it so nobody knows what it would be like.

    The problem with oligopolies in the supermarket sector is that they are able to set things in their interests, usually in collusion with the state (bear in mind, these problems first arose under Labour, which is one reason why Labour were big on FOM) who find it useful to tickle their tummies. After all, no government has ever become unpopular by trying to keep food and indeed fuel prices low, and in the long run the other lot will be in office.

    Which is why they need breaking up - which makes it doubly unfortunate that no government will do so.

    Banking is another example, of course.

    Have a good morning.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    AIUI Nordstream2 is built but not yet turned on. He needs permission from the local authority.

    So he’s creating an incentive by pointing out just how much they need his gas…
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,881

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Dont tell the Greens.
    Meh. We all contribute to the universe’s heat death in our way. Burning a few logs is neither here nor there. Especially when my finger has been hovering over the Woodland Trust’s 400 tree pack.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    I like meat. I enjoy eating meat. I wouldn't want to become a vegetarian unless (somehow) it became necessary for my health.

    Having said that: I probably eat too much meat. As a society, we eat too much meat. Meat is a good part of a balanced diet, but it should not become the majority of a diet - and I fear it is for many people.

    I'm unsure how to fix this: but eating less meat and paying more for what we do consume might be good for our diet, our animals, and, perversely, our farmers and animal workers.

    But I'm not convinced that a fully vegetarian diet is workable for everyone. Sadly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640

    Anecdata…..taxi driver this morning also works as Funeral Director - he’s had more suicides than COVID deaths….but that never gets any publicity….

    He has a very poor funeral business then. There are not a thousand suicides a week.

    Perhaps that is why he is driving a taxi...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    edited September 30

    Anecdata…..taxi driver this morning also works as Funeral Director - he’s had more suicides than COVID deaths….but that never gets any publicity….

    In 2019 there were 5,691 suicides in England and Wales
    in 2020 there were 5,224 suicides in England and Wales

    There were 6,051 Covid deaths in the first week of January this year in England and Wales.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    And the more actual folding money that gets invested, the smaller the stake Mr Blair retains in the company.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    However, the supermarket sector isn’t capitalistic, it is oligopolistic. That is, the members of it use their buying power in effective if never spoken agreement to keep prices artificially low. That is not capitalism, where prices would find an equilibrium based on the minimum cost of production compared to the maximum people are willing to pay.

    Good for consumers in the short term, but bad for producers (and therefore, as we are finding out, bad for consumers in the long term).
    Oligopoly, monopoly and perfect competition are all forms of capitalism. Marx argued that monopoly/oligopoly were the system's natural state, which seems plausible - it generally requires state intervention to prevent it. Smith argued that producers, left to their own devices, would collude to stifle competition, which also seems to be borne out by reality. My own view is that capitalism shouldn't be left to the capitalists - the end point would be utter misery for 99% of humanity and ultimately the capitalists themselves would be swinging from lampposts.
    Pure capitalism is a bit like pure Marxism - nobody has ever really tried it so nobody knows what it would be like.

    The problem with oligopolies in the supermarket sector is that they are able to set things in their interests, usually in collusion with the state (bear in mind, these problems first arose under Labour, which is one reason why Labour were big on FOM) who find it useful to tickle their tummies. After all, no government has ever become unpopular by trying to keep food and indeed fuel prices low, and in the long run the other lot will be in office.

    Which is why they need breaking up - which makes it doubly unfortunate that no government will do so.

    Banking is another example, of course.

    Have a good morning.
    The problem with banking is people forgot they are supposed to be a boring utility not some glamorous career choice
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    Still, its basically a niche employment consultant. Where on earth are the cash flows that would justify such multiples of value? How much are companies prepared to pay to outsource something they could so easily do themselves (an advert for Google, for example, is likely to attract lots of bright young things)? They are talking about the company soon being worth $1bn. That is just weird.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    And the more actual folding money that gets invested, the smaller the stake Mr Blair retains in the company.
    But he’s still done well - pre money around £550m implying his stake £150-200m
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    Still, its basically a niche employment consultant. Where on earth are the cash flows that would justify such multiples of value? How much are companies prepared to pay to outsource something they could so easily do themselves (an advert for Google, for example, is likely to attract lots of bright young things)? They are talking about the company soon being worth $1bn. That is just weird.
    Valuations are crazy right now
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,090
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,897

    Nigelb said:

    That will be the same Johnson who scored less than both Corbyn and Starmer on this metric - but then went on shortly afterwards to get an 80 seat majority?

    Yep, a real indicator this one....

    Yes, but what is the change in Starmer’s ratings ?
    I don’t have the polls to hand, but those numbers look to be a very significant improvement.

    Next year or so the economy is quite likely to piss off a large part of Johnson’s base. A Starmer alternative is starting to seem as though it might be considerably less unpalatable to voters than was Corbyn.
    When you "yes, but...", you're losing.
    For someone so confident about Labour’s lack of electoral appeal you don’t half get wound up by any mention of progress.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    Where's Casino Royale when you need him.
    I discovered yesterday, that my wife of six years is a huge JB fan!

    So we have VIP tickets to the movie tonight, first outing to a cinema for more than two years for me!
    Nice one. My wife is the opposite. The last bond film I saw was a Brosnan one. Cant remember which.

    I'd like to see Dune but she's not up for that either.
    Literally thousands of books came into our marriage. On review, other than some boring law texts, the one book that was duplicated was Dune. My wife lost enthusiasm for the sequels, whilst God Emperor probably remains my favourite, but she loved the original. I can only hope this attempt at a film is better than the earlier efforts.
    Yes the film I saw was a bit rubbish. But Francesca Annis was stunning.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    I’m sure the marginal cost of heating bills pales into insignificance, when compared to the price of train tickets, coffees and lunches associated with going back to the office.
    Especially when you’re paying for heating at home for your parents.
    True. Not for everyone. But if you have a short drive to work with free parking and take your lunch...
  • moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    My office is the former bank which makes up much of the ground floor of the building we live in. Have spent much of the last 7 months renovating the former banking hall which will be open office space, so I'm working out of the former manager's office.

    Single Glazing and 200 year old granite walls means cold in winter - there are storage heaters everywhere and even wall-mounted heaters in the toilets. Long term project to replace all the windows will have to wait for next summer when resources allow. In the meantime I have an electric radiator on a smart plug that does the job when heat is needed.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,798
    edited September 30
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    However, the supermarket sector isn’t capitalistic, it is oligopolistic. That is, the members of it use their buying power in effective if never spoken agreement to keep prices artificially low. That is not capitalism, where prices would find an equilibrium based on the minimum cost of production compared to the maximum people are willing to pay.

    Good for consumers in the short term, but bad for producers (and therefore, as we are finding out, bad for consumers in the long term).
    Oligopoly, monopoly and perfect competition are all forms of capitalism. Marx argued that monopoly/oligopoly were the system's natural state, which seems plausible - it generally requires state intervention to prevent it. Smith argued that producers, left to their own devices, would collude to stifle competition, which also seems to be borne out by reality. My own view is that capitalism shouldn't be left to the capitalists - the end point would be utter misery for 99% of humanity and ultimately the capitalists themselves would be swinging from lampposts.
    Pure capitalism is a bit like pure Marxism - nobody has ever really tried it so nobody knows what it would be like.

    The problem with oligopolies in the supermarket sector is that they are able to set things in their interests, usually in collusion with the state (bear in mind, these problems first arose under Labour, which is one reason why Labour were big on FOM) who find it useful to tickle their tummies. After all, no government has ever become unpopular by trying to keep food and indeed fuel prices low, and in the long run the other lot will be in office.

    Which is why they need breaking up - which makes it doubly unfortunate that no government will do so.

    Banking is another example, of course.

    Have a good morning.
    Modern Capitalism is struggling for the same reasons communism died. The flow of information. No sensible person can understand or make sound judgements on key financial instruments. I It’s all clouded in jargon and bullshit and markets cannot function. Ultimately it gets run by a weird clique for their own interest. No different from tractor stats.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821

    Anecdata…..taxi driver this morning also works as Funeral Director - he’s had more suicides than COVID deaths….but that never gets any publicity….

    Does he use the same car?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,897
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,755

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    Met someone at work the other day. He had flounced off from a job because his EE boss had told him British workers were lazy. Well that's out of order due to the generalisation, but a couple of days into a new job he had left early because a dog had got out, and the next day come in late waiting for his sister to come round and sit said dog.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,856
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Am I right that you have land in the middle of nowhere?

    I'm a bit sceptical about log burners except where people have free wood, and enjoy chopping. What will the payback period be?

    When it is cheaper to commute to work than pay the £1 a day it might cost to heat a room, then perhaps one needs to reflect :smile: .

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    Worth pointing out that it is not just professionals that think Brexit is going badly. Even Leave voters were more likely to say going "very badly" vs "very well". If it wasn't Labour and related shortages, why do you think they feel that way?


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,128
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    Curiously, while it was Fukushima which prompted Germany to unwisely and precipitately abandon nuclear power, Japan appears to be recommitting to it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035
    edited September 30
    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are now long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.

    Edit: the obsessives in the case of Bond being the financiers, mainly.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    I have absolutely zero sympathy for the "British workers don't want the work" line. Its bullshit. Supposedly British workers don't want to work in almost every poorly paid job, I wonder what the common denominator is there? Maybe British workers don't want the piss taken out of them?

    Supposedly people claim that British workers don't want to work in care for instance, and yet 10 of every 12 care staff are British. 1 in 12 are European and 1 in 12 are non-European. Similar figures exist in many other jobs British workers "don't want to do".

    There is no job someone won't take if you offer enough money, and there's no reason to run the country for businesses that can't or won't offer enough money to fill their vacancies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,288

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    I like meat. I enjoy eating meat. I wouldn't want to become a vegetarian unless (somehow) it became necessary for my health.

    Having said that: I probably eat too much meat. As a society, we eat too much meat. Meat is a good part of a balanced diet, but it should not become the majority of a diet - and I fear it is for many people.

    I'm unsure how to fix this: but eating less meat and paying more for what we do consume might be good for our diet, our animals, and, perversely, our farmers and animal workers.

    But I'm not convinced that a fully vegetarian diet is workable for everyone. Sadly.
    There's no need to stop eating meat altogether. Reducing meat consumption on average by three-quarters would still enable people to eat meat regularly and often, but not as constantly as at present.
  • DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    Yes. There is a structural problem in the economy which Covid has amplified to both visibility and crisis point. We have simultaneously a punishing cost of living crisis and companies unable (and sometimes unwilling) to pay living wages. For all that "just pay more" is a simple solution, how does that work when none of the smaller companies can do and we then end up with a small number of giants with all that entails?

    Nursing. Midwifery. HGV Drivers. Carers. Chefs - there are a stack of skilled professions who simply cannot recruit because of a combination of punitive training costs and low pay/crap conditions when you get there. And thats just skilled work, its even worse with unskilled.

    As with 2 decades ago where you couldn't find plumbers, joiners, skilled tradespeople at any price we have a choice. Do we blame people and wait an indefinite period of time for people to be trained up and become available for work? Or do we import the workers because the work needs doing now?

    To Make Brexit Work (great slogan btw) we need two things. One - make the points-based immigration system functional. Saying "yer barred" to anyone to pacify the red wall is daft. We need a shit ton of people so give them proper visas not a handful of "fuck off at Christmas" ones. Two - properly invest in skills and education so that we will have a pipeline of our own people coming through to replace migrants. As people can't afford their own training and companies won't due to high turnover, we will have to centralise it, a Manpower Services Commission for the 10s.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.
    The Bourne films moved that kind of film into a different league in the same way that the Matrix did with sci-fi. I think Daniel Craig worked hard to keep up with that but there is an incredible amount of baggage with Bond that the fanatics need to see which makes the films long and cumbersome. I will go and see the new Bond but I can't claim that I have been desperate to do so over the last year.

    Like Dr Who, a couple of decades of rest would not go amiss.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,584
    Good poll numbers for Starmer from his speech. However still a long way to go and as the figures show how you do in your first conference speech is not automatically correlated to how you do at the next election. For example, Boris' figures were not that great after his first speech but he still went on to win comfortably in 2019
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    Worth pointing out that it is not just professionals that think Brexit is going badly. Even Leave voters were more likely to say going "very badly" vs "very well". If it wasn't Labour and related shortages, why do you think they feel that way?


    Because the media repeat the messages every single day to the delight of @Scott_xP but almost no one else?
  • DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    Yes. There is a structural problem in the economy which Covid has amplified to both visibility and crisis point. We have simultaneously a punishing cost of living crisis and companies unable (and sometimes unwilling) to pay living wages. For all that "just pay more" is a simple solution, how does that work when none of the smaller companies can do and we then end up with a small number of giants with all that entails?

    Nursing. Midwifery. HGV Drivers. Carers. Chefs - there are a stack of skilled professions who simply cannot recruit because of a combination of punitive training costs and low pay/crap conditions when you get there. And thats just skilled work, its even worse with unskilled.

    As with 2 decades ago where you couldn't find plumbers, joiners, skilled tradespeople at any price we have a choice. Do we blame people and wait an indefinite period of time for people to be trained up and become available for work? Or do we import the workers because the work needs doing now?

    To Make Brexit Work (great slogan btw) we need two things. One - make the points-based immigration system functional. Saying "yer barred" to anyone to pacify the red wall is daft. We need a shit ton of people so give them proper visas not a handful of "fuck off at Christmas" ones. Two - properly invest in skills and education so that we will have a pipeline of our own people coming through to replace migrants. As people can't afford their own training and companies won't due to high turnover, we will have to centralise it, a Manpower Services Commission for the 10s.
    LOL could not disagree with this more.

    Let companies "invest in people". There's ways to do that and people will stick with good employers - or they can use bonus/bond structures etc to ensure people they 'invest in' sticks with them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    My office is the former bank which makes up much of the ground floor of the building we live in. Have spent much of the last 7 months renovating the former banking hall which will be open office space, so I'm working out of the former manager's office.

    Single Glazing and 200 year old granite walls means cold in winter - there are storage heaters everywhere and even wall-mounted heaters in the toilets. Long term project to replace all the windows will have to wait for next summer when resources allow. In the meantime I have an electric radiator on a smart plug that does the job when heat is needed.
    It always amuses me that banking halls (and the large atriums in modern banks) are reverse psychology

    They are designed to make the customer think “if they can afford to waste so much money they must be a safe place to leave my cash”
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,856

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    I like meat. I enjoy eating meat. I wouldn't want to become a vegetarian unless (somehow) it became necessary for my health.

    Having said that: I probably eat too much meat. As a society, we eat too much meat. Meat is a good part of a balanced diet, but it should not become the majority of a diet - and I fear it is for many people.

    I'm unsure how to fix this: but eating less meat and paying more for what we do consume might be good for our diet, our animals, and, perversely, our farmers and animal workers.

    But I'm not convinced that a fully vegetarian diet is workable for everyone. Sadly.
    There are a lot of dodgy numbers out there.

    And last week quite a serious report about lack of nutrition in non-dairy milk.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are now long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.

    Edit: the obsessives in the case of Bond being the financiers, mainly.
    I have nothing against Bond fans. Live and let live.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.
    The Bourne films moved that kind of film into a different league in the same way that the Matrix did with sci-fi. I think Daniel Craig worked hard to keep up with that but there is an incredible amount of baggage with Bond that the fanatics need to see which makes the films long and cumbersome. I will go and see the new Bond but I can't claim that I have been desperate to do so over the last year.

    Like Dr Who, a couple of decades of rest would not go amiss.
    It's interesting that the franchise that keeps chugging on, delivering what it promises on the tin and without all the baggage which as you say hinders Bond, is Mission Impossible.

    It is on its what, sixth film? All without the bonkers fanfare.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942

    Anecdata…..taxi driver this morning also works as Funeral Director - he’s had more suicides than COVID deaths….but that never gets any publicity….

    Does he use the same car?
    License plate CH4RON
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    Worth pointing out that it is not just professionals that think Brexit is going badly. Even Leave voters were more likely to say going "very badly" vs "very well". If it wasn't Labour and related shortages, why do you think they feel that way?


    The breakdown for C2DE workers was 19% fairly/very well vs 39% fairly/very badly.

    17% vs 51% for the North
    21% vs 48% for Midlands/Wales
    And an eye watering 11% vs 68% in Scotland

    So not just professionals, nor Southerners.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,128

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    That will be the key.

    I'm not sure that the Tories making the higher wages argument are quite clear about what the next few years are likely to bring. It's quite possible we'll see something similar to the wage inflationary 70s. That won't do their electoral prospects much good - particularly with the fixed income pensioner vote.

    For now, they seem to be glossing over the likely costs of economic dislocation, and looking only at the upside.
  • Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    "Workers *of the world* unite" is the phrase! Internationalism isn't a new development for the Labour movement. Blaming immigrants for low wages is as old as the hills - eg Moseley in the thirties.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    I have absolutely zero sympathy for the "British workers don't want the work" line. Its bullshit. Supposedly British workers don't want to work in almost every poorly paid job, I wonder what the common denominator is there? Maybe British workers don't want the piss taken out of them?

    Supposedly people claim that British workers don't want to work in care for instance, and yet 10 of every 12 care staff are British. 1 in 12 are European and 1 in 12 are non-European. Similar figures exist in many other jobs British workers "don't want to do".

    There is no job someone won't take if you offer enough money, and there's no reason to run the country for businesses that can't or won't offer enough money to fill their vacancies.
    What would your price be to become a prostitute?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003
    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    My office is the former bank which makes up much of the ground floor of the building we live in. Have spent much of the last 7 months renovating the former banking hall which will be open office space, so I'm working out of the former manager's office.

    Single Glazing and 200 year old granite walls means cold in winter - there are storage heaters everywhere and even wall-mounted heaters in the toilets. Long term project to replace all the windows will have to wait for next summer when resources allow. In the meantime I have an electric radiator on a smart plug that does the job when heat is needed.
    It always amuses me that banking halls (and the large atriums in modern banks) are reverse psychology

    They are designed to make the customer think “if they can afford to waste so much money they must be a safe place to leave my cash”
    Same reason most estate agents turn up in leased cars they can’t really afford.
  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    But you need to look at why British Labour relations are so poor compared to much of our neighbours in Northern Europe in the historical round.

    Britain's postwar settlement disguised class and employer-employee relations that were still feudal. The union militancy of the 1970's was the flipside of an almost seigneurially abusive attitude from many large employers compared to countries like Germany or Sweden. Thatcher then "solved" this by a scorched-earth victory for the employers. The alienation in the British Labour market is deep-seated and deep-rooted, and I would very strongly reject blaming that just on the employees.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,584
    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are now long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.

    Edit: the obsessives in the case of Bond being the financiers, mainly.
    Bond's tend to go from macho type action men to more suave, tongue in cheek actors eg Connery followed by Lazenby and Moore, Dalton followed by Brosnan and now Craig. Bond needs a more light hearted, sophisticated Bond again now, maybe James Norton
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,881
    MattW said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Am I right that you have land in the middle of nowhere?

    I'm a bit sceptical about log burners except where people have free wood, and enjoy chopping. What will the payback period be?

    When it is cheaper to commute to work than pay the £1 a day it might cost to heat a room, then perhaps one needs to reflect :smile: .

    Indeed I do. But the wood doesn’t need to be free for it to be cost effective or environmentally sound, depending on your alternative. Which for me is heading oil. Looked into heat pumps but they’re an expensive, power hungry and noisy option right now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    I do not deny that there are going to be dislocations and disruptions. We are moving from 1 business model built around a hugely elastic supply of labour to another. There are bound to be problems. But, even putting aside the morality of us pinching another nurse off a poor country that paid to train her, the medium term solution is surely that we invest more in training and pay sufficiently well to retain people like your girlfriend in the service, not that we just take another dozen off the rank to the detriment of an eastern European country.
  • TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    I have absolutely zero sympathy for the "British workers don't want the work" line. Its bullshit. Supposedly British workers don't want to work in almost every poorly paid job, I wonder what the common denominator is there? Maybe British workers don't want the piss taken out of them?

    Supposedly people claim that British workers don't want to work in care for instance, and yet 10 of every 12 care staff are British. 1 in 12 are European and 1 in 12 are non-European. Similar figures exist in many other jobs British workers "don't want to do".

    There is no job someone won't take if you offer enough money, and there's no reason to run the country for businesses that can't or won't offer enough money to fill their vacancies.
    What would your price be to become a prostitute?
    That's the old joke isn't it? Sometimes accredited to George Bernard Shaw though that's probably apocryphal.

    Shaw: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?

    Actress: My goodness. Well, I'd certainly think about it.

    Shaw: Would you sleep with me for a pound?

    Actress: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!

    Shaw: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,856

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    Yes. There is a structural problem in the economy which Covid has amplified to both visibility and crisis point. We have simultaneously a punishing cost of living crisis and companies unable (and sometimes unwilling) to pay living wages. For all that "just pay more" is a simple solution, how does that work when none of the smaller companies can do and we then end up with a small number of giants with all that entails?

    Nursing. Midwifery. HGV Drivers. Carers. Chefs - there are a stack of skilled professions who simply cannot recruit because of a combination of punitive training costs and low pay/crap conditions when you get there. And thats just skilled work, its even worse with unskilled.

    As with 2 decades ago where you couldn't find plumbers, joiners, skilled tradespeople at any price we have a choice. Do we blame people and wait an indefinite period of time for people to be trained up and become available for work? Or do we import the workers because the work needs doing now?

    To Make Brexit Work (great slogan btw) we need two things. One - make the points-based immigration system functional. Saying "yer barred" to anyone to pacify the red wall is daft. We need a shit ton of people so give them proper visas not a handful of "fuck off at Christmas" ones. Two - properly invest in skills and education so that we will have a pipeline of our own people coming through to replace migrants. As people can't afford their own training and companies won't due to high turnover, we will have to centralise it, a Manpower Services Commission for the 10s.
    LOL could not disagree with this more.

    Let companies "invest in people". There's ways to do that and people will stick with good employers - or they can use bonus/bond structures etc to ensure people they 'invest in' sticks with them.
    Serious question: has much now been achieved via the "Apprenticeship Levy"?

    That is a cost to business running at several billion a year, and the last I saw most of it wasn't actually getting claimed back.

    I wonder if Blair Junior makes his cash from clipping the supply side of that?

    (Compare with iammoving.com)

    Anyhoo - the new Jeremy Hunt.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,003
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    And the more actual folding money that gets invested, the smaller the stake Mr Blair retains in the company.
    But he’s still done well - pre money around £550m implying his stake £150-200m
    Yes, but how much actual cash at that valuation? Could just as easily easily be a friend of his ‘investing’ £550k for 0.1%, so he can hype the valuation to drive down the rate of his own divestment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    I have absolutely zero sympathy for the "British workers don't want the work" line. Its bullshit. Supposedly British workers don't want to work in almost every poorly paid job, I wonder what the common denominator is there? Maybe British workers don't want the piss taken out of them?

    Supposedly people claim that British workers don't want to work in care for instance, and yet 10 of every 12 care staff are British. 1 in 12 are European and 1 in 12 are non-European. Similar figures exist in many other jobs British workers "don't want to do".

    There is no job someone won't take if you offer enough money, and there's no reason to run the country for businesses that can't or won't offer enough money to fill their vacancies.
    What would your price be to become a prostitute?
    That's the old joke isn't it? Sometimes accredited to George Bernard Shaw though that's probably apocryphal.

    Shaw: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?

    Actress: My goodness. Well, I'd certainly think about it.

    Shaw: Would you sleep with me for a pound?

    Actress: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!

    Shaw: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
    Yep.

    So what's your price?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,535
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    There was not a hint of contrition from Starmer or the wider Labour Party towards those who felt that Labour had screwed them over, and out of frustration turned first to Brexit and then the Tories.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    This is simplistic chattering class nonsense David. My girlfriend is red wall works band 3 in the NHS and is struggling because her team cannot recruit anyone.

    She’s also worried about heating bills, the cost of petrol, and her salary not keeping pace with cost of living.

    The idea that the ‘red wall’ are going to be happy with abstract ‘pay rises’ is frankly out of touch and insulting.

    I guess the proof will be in the pudding. If wages outpace cost of living at the low end then you might be right but that remains to be seen.
    Yes. There is a structural problem in the economy which Covid has amplified to both visibility and crisis point. We have simultaneously a punishing cost of living crisis and companies unable (and sometimes unwilling) to pay living wages. For all that "just pay more" is a simple solution, how does that work when none of the smaller companies can do and we then end up with a small number of giants with all that entails?

    Nursing. Midwifery. HGV Drivers. Carers. Chefs - there are a stack of skilled professions who simply cannot recruit because of a combination of punitive training costs and low pay/crap conditions when you get there. And thats just skilled work, its even worse with unskilled.

    As with 2 decades ago where you couldn't find plumbers, joiners, skilled tradespeople at any price we have a choice. Do we blame people and wait an indefinite period of time for people to be trained up and become available for work? Or do we import the workers because the work needs doing now?

    To Make Brexit Work (great slogan btw) we need two things. One - make the points-based immigration system functional. Saying "yer barred" to anyone to pacify the red wall is daft. We need a shit ton of people so give them proper visas not a handful of "fuck off at Christmas" ones. Two - properly invest in skills and education so that we will have a pipeline of our own people coming through to replace migrants. As people can't afford their own training and companies won't due to high turnover, we will have to centralise it, a Manpower Services Commission for the 10s.
    Part of the problem is forcing things to be graduate jobs. Nursing, for example, shouldn’t require 3 years academic study and £27k of debt. We need to be a lot more thoughtful.

    Perhaps there is an argument for the government to fund training for a role which is then paid back by companies during someone’s first few years in the role? And would move with them to a new employer?
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    My question is how and why these companies are to provide training to "drive up productivity". The Tories want labour mobility, which means as soon as you finish training a driver they are out the door. Wouldn't happen if we re-unionised the sector. And drivers are hardly unproductive - being harried every minute of every shift is a reason why so many are not coming back into it having left.

    There is a simple reality here - British workers don't want the work. Whether it is in factories or care homes or a whole stack of jobs, we don't want them. You can say "pay more" but the point where we stopped wanting to do them relative pay was higher.

    I have a lot of sympathy for the Tory thinkers who wrote the "British workers are lazy" book. I have worked for various companies with various facilities where it is clear and obviously true. Eastern Europeans became so popular not because they were cheaper, but because they actually turned up to do the job.
    I have absolutely zero sympathy for the "British workers don't want the work" line. Its bullshit. Supposedly British workers don't want to work in almost every poorly paid job, I wonder what the common denominator is there? Maybe British workers don't want the piss taken out of them?

    Supposedly people claim that British workers don't want to work in care for instance, and yet 10 of every 12 care staff are British. 1 in 12 are European and 1 in 12 are non-European. Similar figures exist in many other jobs British workers "don't want to do".

    There is no job someone won't take if you offer enough money, and there's no reason to run the country for businesses that can't or won't offer enough money to fill their vacancies.
    What would your price be to become a prostitute?
    That's the old joke isn't it? Sometimes accredited to George Bernard Shaw though that's probably apocryphal.

    Shaw: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?

    Actress: My goodness. Well, I'd certainly think about it.

    Shaw: Would you sleep with me for a pound?

    Actress: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!

    Shaw: Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
    Yep.

    So what's your price?
    I don't know but certainly the free market rate for other people who work in the sector probably clears at a lower amount. 😉
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    edited September 30
    TOPPING said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, happy James Bond Day!

    I don't get the enduring appeal of James Bond films. Sorry.

    I mean when I was a spotty teenager, thrilled by the gadgets and bikini girls, I loved them and recall that my first cinema experience without parents was to see The Spy Who Loved Me with my friend. But as an adult?

    The franchise has a reputation for me of lame sets, dodgy acting and banal, implausible script. All-round a bit ... naff.

    If you want to watch an action movie then JB films aren't in the same league as, say, the Bourne movies or the awesome and flawless Mad Max Thunder Road are they?

    I hope that's not too controversial so as to make you choke on your cornflakes especially on James Bond Day.

    JB films have been transformed by Bourne.

    Once upon a time they were light hearted, self-parodic, and tremendous and unserious fun.

    However, despite their copying Bourne, or trying to, they are now long, lumbering, taking themselves far too seriously with hugely convoluted plots.

    Both the Bond films and Doctor Who have fallen victim to the same phenomenon of believing the hype of a few obsessives.

    Edit: the obsessives in the case of Bond being the financiers, mainly.
    I have seen all of the Connery and Moore Bond films and some of the remainder, and largely agree. The franchise seems to still make money, but I find them rather dull and formulaic.
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    It's principally driven by the desperation to show that freedom of movement in the SM was a good thing that we shouldn't have given up, regardless of the consequences for their natural supporters.


    Their vision is a cheap labour, low productivity future where skilled, middle class professionals get a lot of services on the cheap, a good standard of living and the flexibility to move if they so want and the opportunity to sell their services into a bigger market so they can justify a higher price. I mean, from the viewpoint of a professional in London doing financial services etc where they UK is more than competitive you can see why this seems a no brainer but from the viewpoint of a former Labour supporter in the red wall its mainly downside. The absolute refusal to see that suggests to me that winning those supporters back is going to be problematic.
    Worth pointing out that it is not just professionals that think Brexit is going badly. Even Leave voters were more likely to say going "very badly" vs "very well". If it wasn't Labour and related shortages, why do you think they feel that way?


    Because the media repeat the messages every single day to the delight of @Scott_xP but almost no one else?
    Well it does look as if you are in the tiny majority of Scots who think it is going well. Do you really feel that the rest of your countrymen are gullible fools?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,535
    moonshine said:

    MattW said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Am I right that you have land in the middle of nowhere?

    I'm a bit sceptical about log burners except where people have free wood, and enjoy chopping. What will the payback period be?

    When it is cheaper to commute to work than pay the £1 a day it might cost to heat a room, then perhaps one needs to reflect :smile: .

    Indeed I do. But the wood doesn’t need to be free for it to be cost effective or environmentally sound, depending on your alternative. Which for me is heading oil. Looked into heat pumps but they’re an expensive, power hungry and noisy option right now.
    moonshine said:

    MattW said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    Am I right that you have land in the middle of nowhere?

    I'm a bit sceptical about log burners except where people have free wood, and enjoy chopping. What will the payback period be?

    When it is cheaper to commute to work than pay the £1 a day it might cost to heat a room, then perhaps one needs to reflect :smile: .

    Indeed I do. But the wood doesn’t need to be free for it to be cost effective or environmentally sound, depending on your alternative. Which for me is heading oil. Looked into heat pumps but they’re an expensive, power hungry and noisy option right now.
    In Devon, 1 in 6 trees is ash - and I suspect from what I am seeing around me is that a significant portion of those will have to felled because of the danger of falling branches due to die back.

    No shortage of wood to burn down here for many a year.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    "Workers *of the world* unite" is the phrase! Internationalism isn't a new development for the Labour movement. Blaming immigrants for low wages is as old as the hills - eg Moseley in the thirties.
    Wages are set by supply and demand. Unlimited supply of labour reduces incentives to invest in training and pay labour more. It’s basic economics.

    “Workers of the world unite” was a political slogan not an economic one
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511
    This Labour's best chance to win the next election. Realists versus fantasists.

    Brexit "certainly a contributing factor" to fuel issues UK is facing, says Keir Starmer on Today

    "Predicted and predictable" says Labour leader


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58740507

    Treasury Sec @SimonClarkeMP reckons labour shortages are nothing to do with Brexit, because to accept that would "take us back to what is quite a negative conversation".

    So, if it looks bad, it's not happening. This is why we're in crisis. You cannot solve issues you deny exist.
    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1443474577557008386/video/1
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,942
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    My office is the former bank which makes up much of the ground floor of the building we live in. Have spent much of the last 7 months renovating the former banking hall which will be open office space, so I'm working out of the former manager's office.

    Single Glazing and 200 year old granite walls means cold in winter - there are storage heaters everywhere and even wall-mounted heaters in the toilets. Long term project to replace all the windows will have to wait for next summer when resources allow. In the meantime I have an electric radiator on a smart plug that does the job when heat is needed.
    It always amuses me that banking halls (and the large atriums in modern banks) are reverse psychology

    They are designed to make the customer think “if they can afford to waste so much money they must be a safe place to leave my cash”
    Same reason most estate agents turn up in leased cars they can’t really afford.
    Nah. They’re just flashy w*nkers with no judgement 😘
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,288
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    And the more actual folding money that gets invested, the smaller the stake Mr Blair retains in the company.
    But he’s still done well - pre money around £550m implying his stake £150-200m
    Yes, but how much actual cash at that valuation? Could just as easily easily be a friend of his ‘investing’ £550k for 0.1%, so he can hype the valuation to drive down the rate of his own divestment.
    The article says they raised £95m for a £650m valuation, so they sold a meaningful chunk of the company. 400 staff, but only "more than 5000 placements".

    I can't make sense of the numbers.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT on abattoirs:

    I've said before that I tend to really respect jobs that need doing, but I wouldn't want to do myself. At uni I had a friend who had worked in one, and his stories were...interesting. I've also been in one on a few occasions (*), and even though clean and bright, there's something heavy about them, spirit-wise.

    Hence, even if it is semi-skilled, abattoir workers should be being paid much more than they are. It's an awful, soul-destroying job.

    (*) Abattoirs have sumps where... well, you can guess what ends up in them. Every so often these need cleaning out, so we hired a pump to do it. A pump and pipework that was kept for that express purpose, and was kept on a part of the depot well away from anything else as, even after cleaning, it stank. (AFAICR the sump had its own pump, that would often break down and so they had to hire one in to drain the sump, so some poor sod could go down and fix it.)

    Most of this problem ultimately comes back to the supermarket sector. If they didn’t demand meat at extremely low prices, and sometimes even at a loss, there wouldn’t be such an issue.

    But then that begs another question, of course - are people willing to pay the cost of production?
    This is just the nature of capitalism - competition driving down prices and squeezing costs at every stage of production. It's well covered in books like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. It's the great strength but also the great weakness of capitalism as an economic system, when those costs getting squeezed are human beings. It's why I vote Labour, for enlightened policies to temper capitalism with interventions to protect people from the remorseless logic of the system - but still capturing the positive elements of that system as much as possible.
    Yet now it’s the Conservatives arguing for higher wages and employers to provide training, while Labour want to throw hundreds of thousands of cheap immigrants at the problem, to prop up the supermarkets’ profits.
    Spot on. Labour has forgotten their original purpose - swamped by internationalism
    "Workers *of the world* unite" is the phrase! Internationalism isn't a new development for the Labour movement. Blaming immigrants for low wages is as old as the hills - eg Moseley in the thirties.
    Wages are set by supply and demand. Unlimited supply of labour reduces incentives to invest in training and pay labour more. It’s basic economics.

    “Workers of the world unite” was a political slogan not an economic one
    And of course it was also said at a time workers across the western world tended to be on a comparable standard of living.

    It wasn't said at a time when there were considerable differences between standards of living that could be arbitraged.
  • Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    It seems a very worthy idea but I am astounded at the money apparently being made from it. Are we in a bubble?
    It’s not actual folding stuff. It’s just the implied value based on the price someone was willing to invest money at
    Still, its basically a niche employment consultant. Where on earth are the cash flows that would justify such multiples of value? How much are companies prepared to pay to outsource something they could so easily do themselves (an advert for Google, for example, is likely to attract lots of bright young things)? They are talking about the company soon being worth $1bn. That is just weird.
    Valuations are crazy right now
    I can't remember the details but vaguely recall that Mr Blair's business model was similar to solar panel fitters, in that it relied heavily on indirect government subsidies, in this case the apprenticeship levy. I'd imagine there must be something similar in America given the new investment.

    As an aside, I know a chap whose basic plan is, whenever a new government subsidy is announced, to work out if and how he can set up a company to exploit it. And he does not seem to be the only one. I am not sure it is commendable but then I guess that is what the government wants.
  • Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m guessing that worlld natural gas prices are going to be bid up for a while yet…

    The proximate cause of this is reportedly coal shortages, but energy is energy, and the Asian region is a very large buyer of gas.
    In #Suzhou several factories supplying Apple have reportedly suspended production due to electricity cuts.
    https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035

    It clearly suits Putin to divert what gas he can to China and Asia more widely, while squeezing supply to Europe and being able to sell at much higher prices. And it’s not even winter yet.

    Maybe the new German Chancellor might want to think about how dependent his country now is on Mr Putin, and his ability to keep his people warm and with power over the next few months.
    The cost equation of WFH has been a bit of a no-brainer the last 18 months. But faced with heating bills 50pc higher the office might look a bit more attractive this winter.
    Need to get a log burner for the home office I think
    My office is the former bank which makes up much of the ground floor of the building we live in. Have spent much of the last 7 months renovating the former banking hall which will be open office space, so I'm working out of the former manager's office.

    Single Glazing and 200 year old granite walls means cold in winter - there are storage heaters everywhere and even wall-mounted heaters in the toilets. Long term project to replace all the windows will have to wait for next summer when resources allow. In the meantime I have an electric radiator on a smart plug that does the job when heat is needed.
    It always amuses me that banking halls (and the large atriums in modern banks) are reverse psychology

    They are designed to make the customer think “if they can afford to waste so much money they must be a safe place to leave my cash”
    I'm not sure how much money Bank of Scotland actually spent! Ripping out the security partition, the teller's counter, the admin area, cupboards and other stuff (no safe, that had long gone) what is clear is that whilst at some point they had a refit to install the main partition and counter, they were built on layers of bodge.

    Of particular amusement were the electrics. I removed several runs of sockets (8 or 10 in a line) all of which turned out to split off a single 13a socket on the wall. My sparky was amused! Various other "that's not safe" discoveries.

    What they did invest in was data. This place had an substantial data network fed from a leased fibre line. I've ripped out all the (dead and severed) ethernet cables, but the fibre line remains as too messy to remove. A mere £900 a month if I want it reconnecting!
This discussion has been closed.