The latest Ipsos-MORI phone poll where I was part of the sample – politicalbetting.com

geoffw said:

Pulpstar said:

Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.

rottenborough said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Leon said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.

No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing

I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.

Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls

Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?

As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now

And Boris's watch too.

"Boris's watch" ?

That's a genuine

Do you think he's got around to opening the red box with Taliban updates in yet?

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.

IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

geoffw said:

dixiedean said:

Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pulpstar said:

geoffw said:

Pulpstar said:

Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.

Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300

Isn't isolation exactly what the taliban want?

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.

IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis

Thank Ed Miliband that we, and the US for that matter, didn't bomb Assad out of power then.
I'm sure you do.

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

not_on_fire said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.

Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms

Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls

No, it is the Saudis that plan and fund these things. The Taliban only care about their own country. They are brutal and medieval in their mindset, but not expansionist. Saudi though is another story.

It was not the Saudis who invited Bin Laden into their country and refused to hand him over even after 9/11, it was the Taliban

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.

HYUFD said:

not_on_fire said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.

Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms

Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

geoffw said:

dixiedean said:

Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

No one

At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.

Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise

Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security

You are absolutely right on this. Why does North Korea survive? Or indeed Israel? Because they have nukes, which deeply, deeply unnerve their many enemies. Otherwise they would be conquered in weeks

Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)

America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub

Foxy said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

It is going to be hard to deny any Afghan who gets to Britain their claim to asylum.

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

not_on_fire said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.

Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms

Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls

Don't worry, there are hardly any skyscrapers in Los Angeles.

dixiedean said:

geoffw said:

dixiedean said:

Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

It would be a long and bloody guerilla war. One that the Taiwanese have been preparing for for 70 years. With rainforest, the highest mountains east of the Himalayas, indigineous tribes who would face the fate of the Uighurs, know their way around and speak unintelligible languages. And every male trained.
I am not claiming the Taiwanese would win, But they could drag it out. With unpredictable results for an invasion force not expecting resistance, nor used to fighting. And for a home population not anticipating body bags by the load.

dixiedean said:

geoffw said:

dixiedean said:

Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

It would be a long and bloody guerilla war. One that the Taiwanese have been preparing for for 70 years. With rainforest, the highest mountains east of the Himalayas, indigineous tribes who would face the fate of the Uighurs, know their way around and speak unintelligible languages. And every male trained.
I am not claiming the Taiwanese would win, But they could drag it out. With unpredictable results for an invasion force not expecting resistance, nor used to fighting. And for a home population not anticipating body bags by the load.

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again

Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?

HYUFD said:

Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

How is that not your view if you think they must be rooted out thoroughly?

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?

When the next bomb explodes in London we may not have much choice

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?

When the next bomb explodes in London we may not have much choice

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

Damn right

Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.

Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan

Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.

It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim

Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

The legacy of which is now.

You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.

It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further

HYUFD said:

Floater said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again

Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?

It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day

I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?

All combined, fewer US and UK citizens have been killed by them than those killed on 9/11 by some margin

Cyclefree said:

Were I an Afghan woman tonight, I would be doing whatever it takes to get out of the country. They - more than any other group - are hugely at risk under Taliban rule. As they were before.

But my guess is that we will see a lot of male Afghan refugees soon enough and no-one will ask what has happened to the women and girls.

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

not_on_fire said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Thread on Afghanistan...

HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.

Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms

Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls

Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.

The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.

Khan is pushing the Taliban to join peace talks, though for Ghani to leave office too
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/imran-khan-says-taliban-won-t-talk-to-aghan-govt-until-ashraf-ghani-remains-president-101628760415443.html

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sean_F said:

The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.

Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again

Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?

It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day

The terrorists are going to successfully launch a 9/11 attack that they haven't been able to do in 20 years, just because the taliban have taken over Afghanistan?

You've truly lost it.

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.

Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden

Would certainly mean a real fight for Biden.

But how on earth can that ticket get past the Trump cult loons who now control most of the GOP? Only if Trump drops dead frankly.

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.

Khan is pushing the Taliban to join peace talks, though for Ghani to leave office too
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/imran-khan-says-taliban-won-t-talk-to-aghan-govt-until-ashraf-ghani-remains-president-101628760415443.html

I do wonder about future Pakistan-Afghan relations. It's one thing to provide support for people undermining your neighbour. It's another to have them actually in power, on an equal standing to you.

What is the Taliban view of the Saudi-Iran quarrel?

Taz said:

HYUFD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20

Boris is also withdrawing... troops.

Only as Biden is, though yes Bush and Blair did a better job on this, as indeed did Obama in getting Bin Laden

Shame about all those wedding parties decimated by drone strikes under his reign, mind you

rcs1000 said:

Quiz question for PBers:

How many US Vice Presidents have managed eight years (or more) in the office?