HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
It should never be a Carter-like imprint on Biden. It was purely Trump's modish populist impulse to begin the plan to withdraw, which Biden has simply completed.
Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.
(The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)
‘Calabrian Greek Greko Native to Italy Region Calabria Ethnicity Greeks Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]
The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’
Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.
2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.
At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
We had quite a good discussion on this last year on PB as I recall, as I know the area quite well. I would say in my experience a lot of the Greeks who were resettled from Asia minor have got some of the strongest claims to very old links , because they were mainly from ancient coastal communities. Relatively few ancestrally turkish people ended up christians compared to the very substantial conversion of byzantine greeks to islam, of whom a big chunk of the population in Izmir and Istanbul are still from this group, but there were some.
Italy is an interesting case because the orthfodox religion seems to have been largely wiped out in Southern Italy by the influence of Rome, whereas there are in fact there are at least hundreds of thousands , and possibly millions, of Italians of Greek descent , through many waves of emigration.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
It should never be a Carter-like imprint on Biden. It was purely Trump's modish populist impulse to begin the plan to withdraw, which Biden has simply completed.
Biden reversed dozens of Trump decisions within hours of being sworn in, he could have done the same in Afghanistan if he wished.
When the Russians pulled out their puppet government managed to hang on for another three years, the US probably thought a similar outcome acceptable but the collapse has been almost immediate.
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
The origin of its name is Nea Polis.
Everyone should see the Greek temples at Paestum. And Sicily too has magnificent examples - Selinunte, Segesta as well as Agrigento.
There is still a functioning Greek theatre at Siracusa. I saw a wonderful production of Antigone there one June evening. Unforgettable.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Why?
Because it's obvious that given time and manpower you can choose the tactics for the territory.
US and British forces have been deployed continuously in Afghanistan for 20 years. That’s a lot of time and manpower, yet they have failed dismally
Yes, I think a lot of people see what's happening and however awful it is, find the idea of remaining to be unpalatable since if you failed to build a state in 20 years you clearly dont know how in any time or they don't want it. Regardless of 'fault' fact is a lot of states are deliberately weak as the power players dont want it strong and so weaken them. And we obviously have no idea.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Although i don't agree with the premise, i think its more to do with big urban centres less likely to own a car, especially if poorer. However, reminder, how petrol prices and expensive move away from petrol cars could really piss off Tory voting block.
Petrol prices have really risen during the pandemic.
We used to note on here the relationship between the price of fuel and the popularity of the Government.
The only early crack in Blair's armour was the 2000 Fuel Crisis when, if memory serves, Hague eked out a brief lead. In my part of East London, fuel prices peaked in 2008 just before the global financial crash when Cameron built up huge leads over Brown but fuel prices collapsed as demand collapsed - very much as happened in 2020 thought for entirely different reasons.
One of the elements of the economic good time sin the early 2000s was cheap fuel (along with cheap food, cheap money and rising asset prices). The nature of post-Covid economic activity has been to release demand which has driven fuel prices higher. To be fair, in recent days, we've seen crude oil stabilise at $70 per barrel, which, again, is much higher than spring 2020 but well below the $85 of October 2018.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Why would it be the fault of other countries if the Afghans can't seem to run their own country?
The parallels with South Vietnam in the spring of 1975 seem quite compelling.
The Ghani government, rather like that of Nguyen van Thieu, has been shown to be a house of cards without substantial foreign military support.
Ghani, like Karzai before him, seems incapable of persuading more than a small number his regime is worth fighting for and dying for. The Taliban, for whatever reason, don't seem to have those issues and although no match for the technology of air power are seemingly more than capable when it comes to the awful minutiae of street fighting within towns and cities.
The argument "he's a bastard but he's OUR bastard" is all we have - it's the same argument used in the Cold War to back some appalling regimes on the simple premise they were anti-communist.
I imagine Ghani and those close to him will find exile and solace somewhere as Afghanistan plunges seemingly into darkness. The contrast between the negotiator in Doha and the commander in Helmand was stark - the excesses and barbarities of Islamic orthodox theocracy will be vested once more on the people of Kabul, Kandahar and Kunduz.
What then? Will any kind of containment work or will Iran and Pakistan covertly support the new Government? Will China do business with the new rulers? The reality of 21st century realpolitik suggests the answer to both questions is yes.
Yet what else could we or should we have done? Would capitalism work or is corruption too ingrained, too endemic, to encourage both actual liberalisation and the desire to fight for that liberalisation or does it come down to the simple truth the West is a ready market for the drugs so easily and readily sourced from Afghanistan?
Your point on drugs is well made. We finance this shit. And I include myself, as a younger man
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.
The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
So when are the Essex volunteers being deployed?
We have a professional army to do it, as do the US
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
Damn right
Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.
Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
The substance CJ Ujah has tested positive is a SARM....that is serious shit that bodybuilders widely use and known to be pretty damn dangerous stuff (unless used under very careful medical supervision for very specific conditions).
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.
(The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)
‘Calabrian Greek Greko Native to Italy Region Calabria Ethnicity Greeks Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]
The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’
Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.
2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.
At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
There are also some Turkish-speaking Turkish Muslims living in Greece who are sometimes called "Greek Muslims" by people other than themselves, with the nasty meaning of "Don't say you're Turkish because nobody's listening". My rule of thumb when referring to a person's ethnic identity is to try to ensure it's one THEY feel they have - or felt they had, if we are talking about the past.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.
What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
So when are the Essex volunteers being deployed?
We have a professional army to do it, as do the US
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.
Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
The "formal" form was an attempt to resurrect the heritage of ancient Greek. It's the equivalent of a movement to replace modern Italian with ecclesiastical Latin.
My point was that whereas vernacular Latin branched off into multiple languages that are for the most part mutually unintelligible unless you've studied them, Greek is Greek.
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.
(The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)
‘Calabrian Greek Greko Native to Italy Region Calabria Ethnicity Greeks Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]
The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’
Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.
2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.
At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
There are also some Turkish-speaking Turkish Muslims living in Greece who are sometimes called "Greek Muslims" by people other than themselves, with the nasty meaning of "Don't say you're Turkish because nobody's listening".
They are Bulgarian Pomaks on the northeastern border, I think. They identify as Turkish ; however according to the treaty in 1923, I think the Greek community in Istanbul and that north-eastern group were supposed to have some sort of less usual status of Turkish christians and Greek muslims.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Conquering Afghanistan is one thing. Holding it quite another. And is it worth it?
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.
Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
All the conceptual vocabulary in modern greek is still largely Ancient Greek. If you want to discuss art, science, philosophy or poliitics in modern greek you still have to use those words. Everyday words are more diverse in origin, though.
Just for notes, Al Qaeda (remember them?) still has presence in Afghanistan. Some of your activated Taliban fighters running about right now are Al Qaeda, just nobody uses that name. IS does exist there too but the former has much stronger associations in Afghanistan. You can knock about the 9/11 hijackers but that misses the point, Afghanistan was a big safe haven, and the HQ
The US government is solely interested in avoiding a Saigon situation in front of the cameras but does that take potentially putting 3000 troops back in? 3000 US troops is not quite like most other armies 3000 troops. The supporting firepower they have is absolutely way in excess of any armed forces on the planet. That kind of number would give the Taliban pause before heading into Kabul and it is way more than what you think is militarily required to secure the road to the airport.
Question is, do the Taliban care to embarass the US? If they do, getting harassment forces into Kabul to threaten the route to the airport to make unuseable at least for a period is probably doable before the US troops get there. The US would ultimately secure it by sheer weight of fire (the idea that they didnt would not be damaging but humiliating) but even its temporary closure would represent a potentially term-nagging image for Biden.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Conquering Afghanistan is one thing. Holding it quite another. And is it worth it?
Best the Brits managed was "holding" it as a protectorate between 1879 and 1919.
According to today's IPSOS-MORI, Boris's net satisfaction rating at this stage of his time at No10 is bettered only by Tony Blair, of the PMs since 1979
Sir Keir's rating at this stage of his time as LotO is only better than Michael Foot, Iain Duncan-Smith & Jeremy Corbyn. I think he is level pegging with William Hague
Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead
Ooh, jammy sod.
I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)
That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle
I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me
I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".
I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
The mountains look on Marathon— And Marathon looks on the sea; And musing there an hour alone, I dream’d that Greece might still be free; For standing on the Persians’ grave, I could not deem myself a slave.
A king sate on the rocky brow Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis; And ships, by thousands, lay below, And men in nations;—all were his! He counted them at break of day— And when the sun set, where were they?
Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.
PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me
I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?
What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.
Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
All the conceptual vocabulary in modern greek is still largely Ancient Greek. If you want to discuss art, science, philosophy or poliitics in modern greek you still have to use those words. Everyday words are more diverse in origin, though.
And ditto with modern latinate languages. The theory of democracy in Italian is (genuinely guessing) la theoria della democratia, which is easy, whereas guessing the Italian for turnip, or tin opener, is harder
Oddly I know the Ionic ancient Greek for turnip, as it crops up in a fragment of Sappho.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?
No one
At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland
Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria
Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.
NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.
What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
They fucked up the invasion as well. The failure to focus on securing the Pakistan border was disasterous.
Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?
No one
At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland
Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria
Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
The other reason that Afghanistan is nothing like Vietnam is that the latter was completely epoch defining. Thanks to the draft the war dominated western culture - from music it influenced like the Doors, to counterculture that arose in response with the hippys and so on. Although its before my time, from everything I've ever learnt on the subject it completely dominated the era until the fall of Saigon - it was the big story.
Afghanistan is just not the same. Afghanistan ceased to be the big story about 2003/2004 when we turned to Iraq. In the past year and a half the fight against Covid has become the defining story of our era. To be honest I suspect most people had completely forgotten about Afghanistan. It wasn't dominating the era, when did someone like a modern version of the Doors last get inspired by Afghanistan?
Afghanistan won't be forgotten by the midterms. The sad truth is it had already been forgotten about. Now people have been reminded Afghanistan still exists and we still had boots on the ground, the reality is most normal people are just shaking their heads and wondering what the point of the past two decades was.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
Damn right
Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.
There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?
No one
At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland
Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria
Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
You are absolutely right on this. Why does North Korea survive? Or indeed Israel? Because they have nukes, which deeply, deeply unnerve their many enemies. Otherwise they would be conquered in weeks
Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)
America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub
Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.
The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Bush failed to defeat the Taliban, Bush failed to defeat Al'Qaeda, he just pushed them into Pakistan. Secure and unchallenged in Pakistan they were able to regroup and recover.
Bush failed in his own objectives. He failed to defeat Al'Qaeda, he failed to kill those behind the attacks, he failed to secure peace. Obama may have secured the death of Bin Laden, something Bush failed in, but Islamists are like Hydra - chop the head off one and two more grow back in its place.
This is Bush's failure, Biden is just not keeping up the pretense that America was winning this fight.
Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.
The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
Not quite - it was the Republicans who enabled Case-Church to pass by greater than a two thirds majority preventing a Presidential veto.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
I believe that was the conclusion reached by the Thatcher and Major Governments.
The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.
NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.
We were there for twenty years. Should we just have endless occupation?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
Damn right
Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.
There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.
Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.
Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.
Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.
What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
They fucked up the invasion as well. The failure to focus on securing the Pakistan border was disasterous.
This is 100% correct and sums it up in one.
The people we went in to kill all just fled across the border, regrouped and now they're back. Nothing much was achieved because we simply rushed in without securing the border first.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
Damn right
Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.
There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.
Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.
Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.
Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
They have had free rein, if that's what they have had. Not reign.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
So long as they gets the US citizens out before Kabul falls the political damage in the US will be minimal. Vietnam-style airlifts will not be a good look however.
We live in an age where even before the BBC can get a camera crew down to cover the horrific events in Plymouth this evening, there is a Wikipedia page about it.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
The lie all along has been to scapegoat Iraq and Afghanistan, when the real source of Islamist terrorism has been Saudi. Sure, the Taliban gave Osama refuge, but he was financed by Saudis, who also fund Salafist fundamentalism in Madrassas from Europe to Indonesia.
Yet our government likes to pretend the Saudis are our friends and allies. We even sell them weapons to help them bomb famine stricken Yemen. We find it convenient financially to ignore the oil money from Saudi, and the Gulf funding terrorism.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
We live in an age where even before the BBC can get a camera crew down to cover the horrific events in Plymouth this evening, there is a Wikipedia page about it.
Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.
The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
Not quite - it was the Republicans who enabled Case-Church to pass by greater than a two thirds majority preventing a Presidential veto.
The Case of "Case-Church" was a Republican Senator.
The Case-Church amendment passed House 325 to 86 votes, which shows either (a) just how enormous the Democrat majority was in the House, or (b) that it had a lot of bipartisan support.
In the Senate, it passed 73-16, with two thirds of Republican Senators voting for it.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware. You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
Presumably that's why they're so against mask mandates in Florida - to avoid people like Bin Laden hiding there.
Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware. You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.
The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
I thought the point about HK is not that it was given back but that China has reneged on the agreement of how it would be treated for the period afterwards and no one cares since no one can stop them?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.
That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
Have you signed up to fight in Afghanistan yet? No.
Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware. You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.
The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
And Boris's watch too.
Blair admittedly was better on this than Boris but both far better than Corbyn would have been
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
And Boris's watch too.
"Boris's watch" ?
That's a genuine
Do you think he's got around to opening the red box with Taliban updates in yet?
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
And Boris's watch too.
Blair admittedly was better on this than Boris but both far better than Corbyn would have been
So you justify someone being crap with more hypothetical shite than an alternative history conference?
Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon. Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is. Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.
Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.
Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.
Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.
We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.
Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.
Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.
The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.
They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
The lie all along has been to scapegoat Iraq and Afghanistan, when the real source of Islamist terrorism has been Saudi. Sure, the Taliban gave Osama refuge, but he was financed by Saudis, who also fund Salafist fundamentalism in Madrassas from Europe to Indonesia.
Yet our government likes to pretend the Saudis are our friends and allies. We even sell them weapons to help them bomb famine stricken Yemen. We find it convenient financially to ignore the oil money from Saudi, and the Gulf funding terrorism.
Since 9/11 the Saudi government has been in partnership with the US on counterterrorism Yes it has a long way to go but it is far more wary of extreme Islamic movements as it was, especially as Bin Laden wanted to topple the House of Saud to
HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.
Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.
Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.
We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
You're making a fool of yourself.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.
That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
The Taliban seem to only really be bothered about Afghanistan. If they have half a brain theyll keep a lid on those with global ambitions, as theyll just be yet another horrible regime people have to deal with they do that.
Comments
Italy is an interesting case because the orthfodox religion seems to have been largely wiped out in Southern Italy by the influence of Rome, whereas there are in fact there are at least hundreds of thousands , and possibly millions, of Italians of Greek descent , through many waves of emigration.
When the Russians pulled out their puppet government managed to hang on for another three years, the US probably thought a similar outcome acceptable but the collapse has been almost immediate.
Everyone should see the Greek temples at Paestum. And Sicily too has magnificent examples - Selinunte, Segesta as well as Agrigento.
There is still a functioning Greek theatre at Siracusa. I saw a wonderful production of Antigone there one June evening. Unforgettable.
https://twitter.com/jacktindale/status/1425770839224553472?s=21
The only early crack in Blair's armour was the 2000 Fuel Crisis when, if memory serves, Hague eked out a brief lead. In my part of East London, fuel prices peaked in 2008 just before the global financial crash when Cameron built up huge leads over Brown but fuel prices collapsed as demand collapsed - very much as happened in 2020 thought for entirely different reasons.
One of the elements of the economic good time sin the early 2000s was cheap fuel (along with cheap food, cheap money and rising asset prices). The nature of post-Covid economic activity has been to release demand which has driven fuel prices higher. To be fair, in recent days, we've seen crude oil stabilise at $70 per barrel, which, again, is much higher than spring 2020 but well below the $85 of October 2018.
This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
https://news.sky.com/story/significant-ambulance-response-deployed-to-incident-in-plymouth-12379946
The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425878430399225863?s=20
Biggest growth seems to be in Florida, Nevada, California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho and part of Alaska.
https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425873656937394196?s=20
Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970
Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
My point was that whereas vernacular Latin branched off into multiple languages that are for the most part mutually unintelligible unless you've studied them, Greek is Greek.
No one
The US government is solely interested in avoiding a Saigon situation in front of the cameras but does that take potentially putting 3000 troops back in? 3000 US troops is not quite like most other armies 3000 troops. The supporting firepower they have is absolutely way in excess of any armed forces on the planet. That kind of number would give the Taliban pause before heading into Kabul and it is way more than what you think is militarily required to secure the road to the airport.
Question is, do the Taliban care to embarass the US? If they do, getting harassment forces into Kabul to threaten the route to the airport to make unuseable at least for a period is probably doable before the US troops get there. The US would ultimately secure it by sheer weight of fire (the idea that they didnt would not be damaging but humiliating) but even its temporary closure would represent a potentially term-nagging image for Biden.
What is behind it is unclear
Plymouth shootings - here's what we've heard so far:
* Reports that five to six have been killed in residential area
* Incident is not terror related
* No-one is on the run
Sir Keir's rating at this stage of his time as LotO is only better than Michael Foot, Iain Duncan-Smith & Jeremy Corbyn. I think he is level pegging with William Hague
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2021-08/Ipsos MORI August 2021 Political Monitor_120821_PUBLIC_0.pdf
Oddly I know the Ionic ancient Greek for turnip, as it crops up in a fragment of Sappho.
This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.
The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.
In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria
Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.
Afghanistan is just not the same. Afghanistan ceased to be the big story about 2003/2004 when we turned to Iraq. In the past year and a half the fight against Covid has become the defining story of our era. To be honest I suspect most people had completely forgotten about Afghanistan. It wasn't dominating the era, when did someone like a modern version of the Doors last get inspired by Afghanistan?
Afghanistan won't be forgotten by the midterms. The sad truth is it had already been forgotten about. Now people have been reminded Afghanistan still exists and we still had boots on the ground, the reality is most normal people are just shaking their heads and wondering what the point of the past two decades was.
Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)
America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub
Bush failed in his own objectives. He failed to defeat Al'Qaeda, he failed to kill those behind the attacks, he failed to secure peace. Obama may have secured the death of Bin Laden, something Bush failed in, but Islamists are like Hydra - chop the head off one and two more grow back in its place.
This is Bush's failure, Biden is just not keeping up the pretense that America was winning this fight.
https://www.rt.com/russia/531890-voronezh-passenger-bus-explosion/
Passenger bus explodes in central Russian city of Voronezh
Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.
Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.
Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
The people we went in to kill all just fled across the border, regrouped and now they're back. Nothing much was achieved because we simply rushed in without securing the border first.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Plymouth_incident
Yet our government likes to pretend the Saudis are our friends and allies. We even sell them weapons to help them bomb famine stricken Yemen. We find it convenient financially to ignore the oil money from Saudi, and the Gulf funding terrorism.
The Case-Church amendment passed House 325 to 86 votes, which shows either (a) just how enormous the Democrat majority was in the House, or (b) that it had a lot of bipartisan support.
In the Senate, it passed 73-16, with two thirds of Republican Senators voting for it.
You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.
That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
That's a genuine
Do you think he's got around to opening the red box with Taliban updates in yet?
Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.
Yes it has a long way to go but it is far more wary of extreme Islamic movements as it was, especially as Bin Laden wanted to topple the House of Saud to
https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-u-s-saudi-arabia-counterterrorism-relationship/