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The latest Ipsos-MORI phone poll where I was part of the sample – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    It should never be a Carter-like imprint on Biden. It was purely Trump's modish populist impulse to begin the plan to withdraw, which Biden has simply completed.
    Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,913

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    I'm not usually averse to leaks, but really this sort of thing should not be announced in advance.
    I am not sure it is a leak, the Guardian, the BBC etc have basically the same story.
    You reckon it's deliberate PR stuff - aren't we great, we're gonna send in the paras? If so, yuck - do it, claim credit afterwards.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,458
    edited August 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.

    (The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)

    ‘Calabrian Greek
    Greko
    Native to Italy
    Region Calabria
    Ethnicity Greeks
    Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]

    The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabrian_Greek

    Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
    Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.

    2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
    I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
    A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.

    At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
    We had quite a good discussion on this last year on PB as I recall, as I know the area quite well. I would say in my experience a lot of the Greeks who were resettled from Asia minor have got some of the strongest claims to very old links , because they were mainly from ancient coastal communities. Relatively few ancestrally turkish people ended up christians compared to the very substantial conversion of byzantine greeks to islam, of whom a big chunk of the population in Izmir and Istanbul are still from this group, but there were some.

    Italy is an interesting case because the orthfodox religion seems to have been largely wiped out in Southern Italy by the influence of Rome, whereas there are in fact there are at least hundreds of thousands , and possibly millions, of Italians of Greek descent , through many waves of emigration.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 568

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    It should never be a Carter-like imprint on Biden. It was purely Trump's modish populist impulse to begin the plan to withdraw, which Biden has simply completed.
    Biden reversed dozens of Trump decisions within hours of being sworn in, he could have done the same in Afghanistan if he wished.

    When the Russians pulled out their puppet government managed to hang on for another three years, the US probably thought a similar outcome acceptable but the collapse has been almost immediate.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Something major in Plymouth it looks like
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,296
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    The origin of its name is Nea Polis.

    Everyone should see the Greek temples at Paestum. And Sicily too has magnificent examples - Selinunte, Segesta as well as Agrigento.

    There is still a functioning Greek theatre at Siracusa. I saw a wonderful production of Antigone there one June evening. Unforgettable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,253

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Why?
    Because it's obvious that given time and manpower you can choose the tactics for the territory.
    US and British forces have been deployed continuously in Afghanistan for 20 years. That’s a lot of time and manpower, yet they have failed dismally
    Yes, I think a lot of people see what's happening and however awful it is, find the idea of remaining to be unpalatable since if you failed to build a state in 20 years you clearly dont know how in any time or they don't want it. Regardless of 'fault' fact is a lot of states are deliberately weak as the power players dont want it strong and so weaken them. And we obviously have no idea.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    ping said:

    So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

    What was the fking point?

    Humiliation.

    The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

    (Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)
    TBF on this occasion it was the right thing to do. We’d have been absolutely mullered if we stayed when the Americans left
    A fair point - but still a sad situation after so many years
    I’m disappointed no one picked up on the pun though. Standards are slipping!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,567
    edited August 2021

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    I'm not usually averse to leaks, but really this sort of thing should not be announced in advance.
    I am not sure it is a leak, the Guardian, the BBC etc have basically the same story.
    You reckon it's deliberate PR stuff - aren't we great, we're gonna send in the paras? If so, yuck - do it, claim credit afterwards.
    Or the Americans have publicly announced this and the UK have been forced to say something in response to media inquiries.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    There isn't a census next year. Redistricting process is happening now.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,648

    New polling analysis with @mattholehouse at the @TheEconomist shows that owning a car is far more predictive of voting behavior than social class.

    https://t.co/3MhRgWELdB https://t.co/Ijje6NqFBu

    Although i don't agree with the premise, i think its more to do with big urban centres less likely to own a car, especially if poorer. However, reminder, how petrol prices and expensive move away from petrol cars could really piss off Tory voting block.

    Petrol prices have really risen during the pandemic.

    We used to note on here the relationship between the price of fuel and the popularity of the Government.

    The only early crack in Blair's armour was the 2000 Fuel Crisis when, if memory serves, Hague eked out a brief lead. In my part of East London, fuel prices peaked in 2008 just before the global financial crash when Cameron built up huge leads over Brown but fuel prices collapsed as demand collapsed - very much as happened in 2020 thought for entirely different reasons.

    One of the elements of the economic good time sin the early 2000s was cheap fuel (along with cheap food, cheap money and rising asset prices). The nature of post-Covid economic activity has been to release demand which has driven fuel prices higher. To be fair, in recent days, we've seen crude oil stabilise at $70 per barrel, which, again, is much higher than spring 2020 but well below the $85 of October 2018.
  • HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    No Census for another decade now, not another year.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Why would it be the fault of other countries if the Afghans can't seem to run their own country?
    The parallels with South Vietnam in the spring of 1975 seem quite compelling.

    The Ghani government, rather like that of Nguyen van Thieu, has been shown to be a house of cards without substantial foreign military support.

    Ghani, like Karzai before him, seems incapable of persuading more than a small number his regime is worth fighting for and dying for. The Taliban, for whatever reason, don't seem to have those issues and although no match for the technology of air power are seemingly more than capable when it comes to the awful minutiae of street fighting within towns and cities.

    The argument "he's a bastard but he's OUR bastard" is all we have - it's the same argument used in the Cold War to back some appalling regimes on the simple premise they were anti-communist.

    I imagine Ghani and those close to him will find exile and solace somewhere as Afghanistan plunges seemingly into darkness. The contrast between the negotiator in Doha and the commander in Helmand was stark - the excesses and barbarities of Islamic orthodox theocracy will be vested once more on the people of Kabul, Kandahar and Kunduz.

    What then? Will any kind of containment work or will Iran and Pakistan covertly support the new Government? Will China do business with the new rulers? The reality of 21st century realpolitik suggests the answer to both questions is yes.

    Yet what else could we or should we have done? Would capitalism work or is corruption too ingrained, too endemic, to encourage both actual liberalisation and the desire to fight for that liberalisation or does it come down to the simple truth the West is a ready market for the drugs so easily and readily sourced from Afghanistan?
    Your point on drugs is well made. We finance this shit. And I include myself, as a younger man
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,253
    Nowhere is unconquerable, but the cost for doing so is beyond the will of most for what you get.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,106

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,648
    HYUFD said:


    Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now

    It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.

    The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    There isn't a census next year. Redistricting process is happening now.
    US now just 59% white
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425878430399225863?s=20

    Biggest growth seems to be in Florida, Nevada, California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho and part of Alaska.

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425873656937394196?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,540
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    As the census is done every ten years, we'll need to wait a while to see that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    So when are the Essex volunteers being deployed?
    We have a professional army to do it, as do the US
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,219

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,540
    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,914
    Cicero said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
    Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
    er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.

    Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
    What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,567
    edited August 2021
    The substance CJ Ujah has tested positive is a SARM....that is serious shit that bodybuilders widely use and known to be pretty damn dangerous stuff (unless used under very careful medical supervision for very specific conditions).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158
    edited August 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.

    (The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)

    ‘Calabrian Greek
    Greko
    Native to Italy
    Region Calabria
    Ethnicity Greeks
    Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]

    The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabrian_Greek

    Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
    Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.

    2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
    I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
    A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.

    At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
    There are also some Turkish-speaking Turkish Muslims living in Greece who are sometimes called "Greek Muslims" by people other than themselves, with the nasty meaning of "Don't say you're Turkish because nobody's listening". My rule of thumb when referring to a person's ethnic identity is to try to ensure it's one THEY feel they have - or felt they had, if we are talking about the past.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    So that poll that had Labour close to the Tories can he discounted....
  • Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
    It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.

    What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    So when are the Essex volunteers being deployed?
    We have a professional army to do it, as do the US
    When are you signing up?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,798
    Cicero said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
    Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
    er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.

    Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
    The "formal" form was an attempt to resurrect the heritage of ancient Greek. It's the equivalent of a movement to replace modern Italian with ecclesiastical Latin.

    My point was that whereas vernacular Latin branched off into multiple languages that are for the most part mutually unintelligible unless you've studied them, Greek is Greek.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,540

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    There isn't a census next year. Redistricting process is happening now.
    US now just 59% white
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425878430399225863?s=20

    Biggest growth seems to be in Florida, Nevada, California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho and part of Alaska.

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425873656937394196?s=20
    That's 59% higher than in 1492.
    I think you mean "That's 59 percentage points higher"...
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,458
    edited August 2021
    YoungTurk said:

    Luke Pollard on Twitter: "Update: awaiting confirmation of number of victims but this looks like a very grim day for our city and our community.

    Please can I ask that you think of the families and our community and not share any images or videos of any of the victims. #keyham"

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.

    (The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)

    ‘Calabrian Greek
    Greko
    Native to Italy
    Region Calabria
    Ethnicity Greeks
    Native speakers c. 2,000 (2010)[1]

    The Calabrian dialect of Greek, or Grecanico[2] is the variety of Italiot Greek used by the ethnic Griko people in Calabria, as opposed to the Italiot Greek dialect spoken in the Grecìa Salentina. Both are remnants of the Ancient and Byzantine Greek colonization of the region.’


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabrian_Greek

    Some dispute as to its ancientry. No doubts that it is Greek. I went to Griko
    Like I said, be very wary of Wikipedia.

    2,000 native speakers my arse. And the chances of you actually overhearing any are zilch.
    I think Leon may be right, actually. I've seen a couple of programmes about these Griko-speakers on Greek TV while in Greece. They have their own festivals, costumes and rituals, and contacts with the Greek government, judging by who was coming on screen.
    A few years ago I read an interesting book on the making of Modern Greece and Turkey. The problem was that defining who was which became quite a problem. In the end it was defined on religion. I expect that they are not such distinct communities any more, but for decades there were villages of Turkish speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia in Greek Macedonian resettlement, and Greek speaking ethnic Greek, but Muslim, communities in what is now Turkey.

    At the boundary, ethnicity is very fluid, take our PM for example. Excessive flag waving patriotism is a feature despite his Turkish ancestry, birth in the USA and being brought up in Belgium.
    There are also some Turkish-speaking Turkish Muslims living in Greece who are sometimes called "Greek Muslims" by people other than themselves, with the nasty meaning of "Don't say you're Turkish because nobody's listening".
    They are Bulgarian Pomaks on the northeastern border, I think. They identify as Turkish ; however according to the treaty in 1923, I think the Greek community in Istanbul and that north-eastern group were supposed to have some sort of less usual status of Turkish christians and Greek muslims.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,296
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Conquering Afghanistan is one thing. Holding it quite another. And is it worth it?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,458
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cicero said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
    Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
    er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.

    Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
    What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
    All the conceptual vocabulary in modern greek is still largely Ancient Greek. If you want to discuss art, science, philosophy or poliitics in modern greek you still have to use those words. Everyday words are more diverse in origin, though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,822
    Omnium said:

    Has anyone any news of what is happening in Plymouth at the moment..?

    None - what have you heard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58189679
  • YokesYokes Posts: 751
    edited August 2021
    Just for notes, Al Qaeda (remember them?) still has presence in Afghanistan. Some of your activated Taliban fighters running about right now are Al Qaeda, just nobody uses that name. IS does exist there too but the former has much stronger associations in Afghanistan. You can knock about the 9/11 hijackers but that misses the point, Afghanistan was a big safe haven, and the HQ

    The US government is solely interested in avoiding a Saigon situation in front of the cameras but does that take potentially putting 3000 troops back in? 3000 US troops is not quite like most other armies 3000 troops. The supporting firepower they have is absolutely way in excess of any armed forces on the planet. That kind of number would give the Taliban pause before heading into Kabul and it is way more than what you think is militarily required to secure the road to the airport.

    Question is, do the Taliban care to embarass the US? If they do, getting harassment forces into Kabul to threaten the route to the airport to make unuseable at least for a period is probably doable before the US troops get there. The US would ultimately secure it by sheer weight of fire (the idea that they didnt would not be damaging but humiliating) but even its temporary closure would represent a potentially term-nagging image for Biden.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,798
    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Has anyone any news of what is happening in Plymouth at the moment..?

    None - what have you heard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58189679
    Rumours of 4 or 5 (shot) dead - people sharing images of bodies in street on twitter I heard.

    What is behind it is unclear
  • Cyclefree said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Conquering Afghanistan is one thing. Holding it quite another. And is it worth it?
    Best the Brits managed was "holding" it as a protectorate between 1879 and 1919.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1425910032827363336

    Plymouth shootings - here's what we've heard so far:

    * Reports that five to six have been killed in residential area

    * Incident is not terror related

    * No-one is on the run
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,851
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Hugely interesting USA Census results.

    Big falls in rural areas and rises in City populations may make the Redistricting process less damaging to Dems than expected.

    Though next year may be different in the aftermath of Covid
    There isn't a census next year. Redistricting process is happening now.
    US now just 59% white
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425878430399225863?s=20

    Biggest growth seems to be in Florida, Nevada, California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho and part of Alaska.

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1425873656937394196?s=20
    That's 59% higher than in 1492.
    I think you mean "That's 59 percentage points higher"...
    I also overlooked the descendants of visiting Vikings.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    According to today's IPSOS-MORI, Boris's net satisfaction rating at this stage of his time at No10 is bettered only by Tony Blair, of the PMs since 1979

    Sir Keir's rating at this stage of his time as LotO is only better than Michael Foot, Iain Duncan-Smith & Jeremy Corbyn. I think he is level pegging with William Hague

    https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2021-08/Ipsos MORI August 2021 Political Monitor_120821_PUBLIC_0.pdf
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,914

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cicero said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

    Ooh, jammy sod.

    I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).
    I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

    That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

    I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

    I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens
    Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

    I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.
    The mountains look on Marathon—
    And Marathon looks on the sea;
    And musing there an hour alone,
    I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
    For standing on the Persians’ grave,
    I could not deem myself a slave.

    A king sate on the rocky brow
    Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
    And ships, by thousands, lay below,
    And men in nations;—all were his!
    He counted them at break of day—
    And when the sun set, where were they?
    Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?
    A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

    PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.
    There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

    I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts
    Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

    What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.
    But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.
    Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.
    er. sorry to disappoint you, there is both a formal and a colloquial (demotic) modern Greek.

    Also I speak Italian, but Spanish has a Lot of weird Arabic stuff which I do not get, so I wonder how accurate your comprehension is.
    What is your point? Kathairevousa is an artificial construct, whereas Portuguese/Castilian/Italian are legitimate heirs of Latin. And of course you are going to get loan words from other languages over two millennia. So what?
    All the conceptual vocabulary in modern greek is still largely Ancient Greek. If you want to discuss art, science, philosophy or poliitics in modern greek you still have to use those words. Everyday words are more diverse in origin, though.
    And ditto with modern latinate languages. The theory of democracy in Italian is (genuinely guessing) la theoria della democratia, which is easy, whereas guessing the Italian for turnip, or tin opener, is harder

    Oddly I know the Ionic ancient Greek for turnip, as it crops up in a fragment of Sappho.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    In what way will China take advantage?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066

    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

    Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866
    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    Why?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,866

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
    It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.

    What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
    They fucked up the invasion as well. The failure to focus on securing the Pakistan border was disasterous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

    Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
    Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
  • HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    The other reason that Afghanistan is nothing like Vietnam is that the latter was completely epoch defining. Thanks to the draft the war dominated western culture - from music it influenced like the Doors, to counterculture that arose in response with the hippys and so on. Although its before my time, from everything I've ever learnt on the subject it completely dominated the era until the fall of Saigon - it was the big story.

    Afghanistan is just not the same. Afghanistan ceased to be the big story about 2003/2004 when we turned to Iraq. In the past year and a half the fight against Covid has become the defining story of our era. To be honest I suspect most people had completely forgotten about Afghanistan. It wasn't dominating the era, when did someone like a modern version of the Doors last get inspired by Afghanistan?

    Afghanistan won't be forgotten by the midterms. The sad truth is it had already been forgotten about. Now people have been reminded Afghanistan still exists and we still had boots on the ground, the reality is most normal people are just shaking their heads and wondering what the point of the past two decades was.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,648
    Leon said:


    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.

    Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

    Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
    Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
    You are absolutely right on this. Why does North Korea survive? Or indeed Israel? Because they have nukes, which deeply, deeply unnerve their many enemies. Otherwise they would be conquered in weeks

    Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)

    America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now

    It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.

    The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
    It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,338
    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.

    Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
    The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Bush failed to defeat the Taliban, Bush failed to defeat Al'Qaeda, he just pushed them into Pakistan. Secure and unchallenged in Pakistan they were able to regroup and recover.

    Bush failed in his own objectives. He failed to defeat Al'Qaeda, he failed to kill those behind the attacks, he failed to secure peace. Obama may have secured the death of Bin Laden, something Bush failed in, but Islamists are like Hydra - chop the head off one and two more grow back in its place.

    This is Bush's failure, Biden is just not keeping up the pretense that America was winning this fight.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Just to add to a grim day

    https://www.rt.com/russia/531890-voronezh-passenger-bus-explosion/

    Passenger bus explodes in central Russian city of Voronezh
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,648
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now

    It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.

    The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
    It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
    Not quite - it was the Republicans who enabled Case-Church to pass by greater than a two thirds majority preventing a Presidential veto.
  • If the withdrawal from 'Gan taints Biden (IF), won't it also taint Boris?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,833
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
  • stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.

    Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
    The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
    The island was captured by the Brits in 1842.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,648

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.

    Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
    The actual island of Hong Kong wasn't part of the lease was it - only the bits on the mainland? But my understanding is that holding onto the island on its own would have been a logistical impossibility.
    I believe that was the conclusion reached by the Thatcher and Major Governments.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 938
    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    We were there for twenty years. Should we just have endless occupation?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,822
    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
  • Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    I think this is correct. Biden is taking the right course of action. This was the folly neocon republican right and Blair/New Labour.
    It wasn't folly to go into Afghanistan after 9/11 it was necessary after the death of thousands of Americans and others.

    What was folly is what happened afterwards. Having won the war they didn't win the peace. Numerous avoidable mistakes were made.
    They fucked up the invasion as well. The failure to focus on securing the Pakistan border was disasterous.
    This is 100% correct and sums it up in one.

    The people we went in to kill all just fled across the border, regrouped and now they're back. Nothing much was achieved because we simply rushed in without securing the border first.
  • Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
    He needs to deal with Rebellious Scots first :lol:
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,914

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    They have had free rein, if that's what they have had. Not reign.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,731
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    So long as they gets the US citizens out before Kabul falls the political damage in the US will be minimal. Vietnam-style airlifts will not be a good look however.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    We live in an age where even before the BBC can get a camera crew down to cover the horrific events in Plymouth this evening, there is a Wikipedia page about it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Plymouth_incident
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,079
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    Likewise Boris, who is withdrawing Brit forces.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,651
    DougSeal said:

    We live in an age where even before the BBC can get a camera crew down to cover the horrific events in Plymouth this evening, there is a Wikipedia page about it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Plymouth_incident

    To be fair to the BBC, half the references cited on that page are from the BBC.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,540
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Neither were right on it, someone like Romney is the President the US needs now

    It's more like Ford facing the disaster of South Vietnam in April 1975.

    The Republican Nixon and his Secretary of State Kissinger had conducted secret talks with North Vietnam and pressured Thieu into signing the Paris Peace Accord which was effectively the death warrant for Saigon.
    It was the Democrats in Congress who cut off funding for the Vietnam War, not Ford
    Not quite - it was the Republicans who enabled Case-Church to pass by greater than a two thirds majority preventing a Presidential veto.
    The Case of "Case-Church" was a Republican Senator.

    The Case-Church amendment passed House 325 to 86 votes, which shows either (a) just how enormous the Democrat majority was in the House, or (b) that it had a lot of bipartisan support.

    In the Senate, it passed 73-16, with two thirds of Republican Senators voting for it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
    Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
    And Boris's watch too.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,338
    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,540
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
    Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
    Presumably that's why they're so against mask mandates in Florida - to avoid people like Bin Laden hiding there.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,798
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,253
    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    What are you proposing we should have done - reneged on a legally-binding agreement? We didn't "own" Hong Kong - we leased it for 99 years. When the lease ended, the land reverted to its owner.

    Should we have allowed all those with British National (Overseas) Passports to have come to Britain as Paddy Ashdown and others argued?
    I thought the point about HK is not that it was given back but that China has reneged on the agreement of how it would be treated for the period afterwards and no one cares since no one can stop them?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
    Did the Florida governor and legislature protect Bin Laden and harbour Al Qaeda training camps? No
    Have you signed up to fight in Afghanistan yet? No.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,253
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
    And Boris's watch too.
    Blair admittedly was better on this than Boris but both far better than Corbyn would have been
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,494

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
    And Boris's watch too.
    "Boris's watch" ?

    That's a genuine :lol:

    Do you think he's got around to opening the red box with Taliban updates in yet?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,822
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
    And Boris's watch too.
    Blair admittedly was better on this than Boris but both far better than Corbyn would have been
    So you justify someone being crap with more hypothetical shite than an alternative history conference?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,256
    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,210
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Grim interviews from Afghanistan on C4 news. You have to wonder why the government leadership has been so gutless (I can’t speak to the qualities of the ground troops but I dare say their morale is affected by those at the top). Interesting that 2 of the interviewees specifically said they did not blame the US.

    Biden is sort of right. The Afghans really should look after themselves. It's simply ridiculous that they don't want to do so, and, unfortunately, that's down to the West.

    Not any more. If China wants global supremacy, let China rule Afghanistan. They’ll probably do it quite well, albeit in the Roman style. Ruthlessly and violently. The Chinese have the cultural self confidence we have lost
    I'd be quite happy to see the Chinese intervene in Afghanistan.
    Every other global empire has been unable to resist, I see no reason why China should be uniquely untempted. And not all have failed. I believe the Mongols were quite rigorous
    The idea that Afghanistan is some unconquerable bastion is ridiculous.
    Indeed, the USA conquered it in a week in 2001. It is holding onto it that is the problem.

    We haven't learnt from South Vietnam, which is why we are reliving the fall of Saigon.

    Corrupt puppet regimes funded by foreigners and enforced by foreign troops are inherently unstable. The locals will support any group of fanatics willing to boot them out. That is how the Viet Cong and Khymer Rouge won, ISIL too, at least for a while.

    Better a puppet regime (elected too remember) we support militarily and financially for decades if not centuries if needed than a Taliban led regime becoming once again a haven for terrorist attacks on major western cities and further 9/11s.

    John McCain wanted a permanent US military presence in Afghanistan, events will soon show he was right
    https://www.npr.org/2015/10/07/446499466/sen-mccain-expects-a-permanent-u-s-presence-in-afghanistan.

    The Russians with Assad and neighbouring client states like Belarus and the Chinese too increasingly support puppet states when needed, so sometimes must we
    The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade. We sell them weaponry.
    They may have grown up in Saudi but it was the Taliban which housed them and Bin Laden who trained them in Afghanistan.

    They learnt to fly in the USA itself, surely?
    Florida. Would HYUFD like to bomb/invade/nuke that?
    The lie all along has been to scapegoat Iraq and Afghanistan, when the real source of Islamist terrorism has been Saudi. Sure, the Taliban gave Osama refuge, but he was financed by Saudis, who also fund Salafist fundamentalism in Madrassas from Europe to Indonesia.

    Yet our government likes to pretend the Saudis are our friends and allies. We even sell them weapons to help them bomb famine stricken Yemen. We find it convenient financially to ignore the oil money from Saudi, and the Gulf funding terrorism.

    Since 9/11 the Saudi government has been in partnership with the US on counterterrorism
    Yes it has a long way to go but it is far more wary of extreme Islamic movements as it was, especially as Bin Laden wanted to topple the House of Saud to

    https://www.brookings.edu/testimonies/the-u-s-saudi-arabia-counterterrorism-relationship/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,253
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    The Taliban seem to only really be bothered about Afghanistan. If they have half a brain theyll keep a lid on those with global ambitions, as theyll just be yet another horrible regime people have to deal with they do that.
This discussion has been closed.