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The latest Ipsos-MORI phone poll where I was part of the sample – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    edited August 12
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    No, it is the Saudis that plan and fund these things. The Taliban only care about their own country. They are brutal and medieval in their mindset, but not expansionist. Saudi though is another story.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,522
    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
    Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
    IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511
    #COVID19: Coronavirus case rates have risen in most regions of England and among almost all age groups, latest figures from Public Health England (PHE) show https://trib.al/kI9MMjH
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
    Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300
    Isn't isolation exactly what the taliban want?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    No, it wil taint every administration associated with it, the same way Vietnam tainted JFK (who started it), then LBJ, then Nixon, and finally Ford

    And this is very arguably worse. Yes, fewer American lives have been lost but much more money has been spent, for almost zero gain, and this at a time when the USA faces a lethally powerful enemy, able to take advantage. China is many times the threat the USSR was, in, say, 1970

    Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden will all get the blame. An utterly failed foreign policy ending in abject farce. A true and visible handover of geopolitical power to Beijing
    I don't think it will taint Biden since he's not associated with it to the same extent. He hasn't been defeated, he's new enough in office that he's simply acknowledged reality and the failure of the prior two decades.

    This will taint primarily those who came before especially Bush.

    The reason this is completely different to Vietnam is in Vietnam the US was going hell for leather fighting, even to the point of using a draft. It was an ongoing war.

    In Afghanistan there's not been an ongoing war and there's not been a draft. Its more of a failed peacekeeping exercise since Bush's infamous Mission Accomplished photoshoot. That's why this will forever be Bush's legacy. This and Iraq.
    Bush stuck the course and removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, Obama killed Bin Laden, Biden let them back in.

    Biden owns this retreat and defeat if Kabul falls
    Er... and Trump, who initiated the withdrawal - does he not get a mention in your litany?
    As I mentioned earlier Romney would be better than both but it is on Biden's watch now
    And Boris's watch too.
    "Boris's watch" ?

    That's a genuine :lol:

    Do you think he's got around to opening the red box with Taliban updates in yet?
    He only learns about things at second hand.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
    IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis
    Yes, thank you for addressing exactly half of the point, which was about the rapid collapse of state forces. Who would play the anti IS role to make up for the weakness of the latter after decades of building?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,652
    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640

    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
    Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300
    Isn't isolation exactly what the taliban want?
    And our governments policy too? Those Paras are only going to help evacuate our own people. It won't be the Taliben that they will be fighting off the helicopter skids.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    If the Taiwanese went for guerrila warfare
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
    IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis
    Thank Ed Miliband that we, and the US for that matter, didn't bomb Assad out of power then.
    I'm sure you do.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    edited August 12

    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
    Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300
    Isn't isolation exactly what the taliban want?
    One interpretation from a commentator on C4 was that the Taliban old dudes (who know what decades in the wilderness feels like and are probably well represented in the peace talks in Doha) are willing to talk business up to a point. Otoh the young firebrands who are actually knocking down the dominoes couldn't give a fuck.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    No, it is the Saudis that plan and fund these things. The Taliban only care about their own country. They are brutal and medieval in their mindset, but not expansionist. Saudi though is another story.
    It was not the Saudis who invited Bin Laden into their country and refused to hand him over even after 9/11, it was the Taliban
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The rapid fall seems to mirror the Iraqi army when IS spread there. Except the Taliban is more entrenched with greater support.
    IS have now been almost eliminated from Syria and Iraq thanks to Russian and US military support for Assad and the Iraqis
    Thank Ed Miliband that we, and the US for that matter, didn't bomb Assad out of power then.
    I'm sure you do.
    I opposed military action against Assad yes in 2013 and said so here
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Pulpstar said:

    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like Kabul will fall to the Taleban shortly. They've played the long game there, and will now have US to update their Russian hardware.
    You have to wonder what the point of everything there was.

    The Americans had the watches, but they had the time.
    Strong stuff from the EU here, Taliban threatened with the naughty step.

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1425901319068471300
    Isn't isolation exactly what the taliban want?
    One interpretation from a commentator on C4 was that the Taliban old dudes who are probably well represented in the peace talks in Doha, are willing to talk business up to a point. Otoh the young firebrands who are actually knocking down the dominoes couldn't give a fuck.
    I suppose they might have been a bit TOO successful in this latest advance, more than they expected - it's hard to rein in the more fiery crowd when it's working so well.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    No, it is the Saudis that plan and fund these things. The Taliban only care about their own country. They are brutal and medieval in their mindset, but not expansionist. Saudi though is another story.
    It was not the Saudis who invited Bin Laden into their country and refused to hand him over even after 9/11, it was the Taliban
    It is a fact though that even today Saudi funds Mosques all over the world which teach hate.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    If the Taiwanese went for guerrila warfare
    You mean the 'turn Gibraltar into Stalingrad' stratagem?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.
    Khan is pushing the Taliban to join peace talks, though for Ghani to leave office too
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/imran-khan-says-taliban-won-t-talk-to-aghan-govt-until-ashraf-ghani-remains-president-101628760415443.html
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    The substance CJ Ujah has tested positive is a SARM....that is serious shit that bodybuilders widely use and known to be pretty damn dangerous stuff (unless used under very careful medical supervision for very specific conditions).

    As I said earlier, the caught sportsperson is just the tip of the iceberg. In the modern testing environment it is impossible to cheat without an organisation behind the sportsperson. They need to look for a handful more bad eggs.

    If the government wanted to root out these scoundrels they could.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Don't worry, there are hardly any skyscrapers in Los Angeles.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited August 12

    The substance CJ Ujah has tested positive is a SARM....that is serious shit that bodybuilders widely use and known to be pretty damn dangerous stuff (unless used under very careful medical supervision for very specific conditions).

    As I said earlier, the caught sportsperson is just the tip of the iceberg. In the modern testing environment it is impossible to cheat without an organisation behind the sportsperson. They need to look for a handful more bad eggs.

    If the government wanted to root out these scoundrels they could.
    I highly doubt you would take SARMs if you were part of sophisticated organized / state sponsored doping. You are nearly guaranted to be popped as it is such a well known PED, widely used in body building. Its gym bro science types who widely take this stuff.

    He hasn't even been popped for masking agents, he has been popped for the actual drug. That again doesn't scream highly organized doping, its screams idiot.

    It will be interesting to see what CJ Ujah defence is.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,767
    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646
    Kandahar falls - AP.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    It would be a long and bloody guerilla war. One that the Taiwanese have been preparing for for 70 years. With rainforest, the highest mountains east of the Himalayas, indigineous tribes who would face the fate of the Uighurs, know their way around and speak unintelligible languages. And every male trained.
    I am not claiming the Taiwanese would win, But they could drag it out. With unpredictable results for an invasion force not expecting resistance, nor used to fighting. And for a home population not anticipating body bags by the load.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    It is going to be hard to deny any Afghan who gets to Britain their claim to asylum.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,490
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

    Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
    Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
    You are absolutely right on this. Why does North Korea survive? Or indeed Israel? Because they have nukes, which deeply, deeply unnerve their many enemies. Otherwise they would be conquered in weeks

    Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)

    America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub
    Israel was never conquered before it had nukes. It has allies. The nukes are secondary.
  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158
    edited August 12
    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    That's precisely what the US doctrine of "One China", in force since 1972, means: "We won't go to war with China to defend Taiwan".
    Taiwan "could" pack quite a punch militarily, and not just on the seaboard, but its rapid defeat would be certain. So it wouldn't try it, and the conclusion is that the war has been won without a battle being fought. A "prediction" from this is that the PRC/ROC distinction doesn't mean terribly much in gangworld and that the PRC intelligence service has little to worry about in Chinatowns.
    With the two Korean governments the situation is very different.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    It is going to be hard to deny any Afghan who gets to Britain their claim to asylum.
    Priti: Just watch me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Who now believes the USA would go to war with China to defend Taiwan?

    No one

    At the risk of violating Godwin, Taiwan is Austria rather than Poland, or even Czechoslovakia.
    Yes, precisely. Hong Kong was the Rhineland

    Taiwan is Anschluss with Austria

    Is there a Poland? I imagine America would step up to the plate to defend S Korea or Japan, but China is not insane like Nazi Germany (yet) so the question probably won’t arise
    Taiwan needs nuclear weapons to ensure its security
    You are absolutely right on this. Why does North Korea survive? Or indeed Israel? Because they have nukes, which deeply, deeply unnerve their many enemies. Otherwise they would be conquered in weeks

    Taiwan must surely be developing nuclear weapons, probably aided by America and Japan (which has nukes in all but name)

    America will not drop atom bombs on Beijing to save Taipei, but Taipei will. And there’s the rub
    Israel was never conquered before it had nukes. It has allies. The nukes are secondary.
    They are the best means of small nations defending themselves however and Taiwan has the scientists to develop them
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,944
    Genuine question - has the UK halted deportations to Afghanistan?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/11/germany-and-netherlands-halt-deportations-afghanistan
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Don't worry, there are hardly any skyscrapers in Los Angeles.
    27 on the last count, plenty to choose from even in LA
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_with_the_most_skyscrapers
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Kandahar falls - AP.

    But Mafeking is relieved....??
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited August 12
    Paging Leon.....WHO chief points finger ar Wuhan Lab....

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1425930830707363846?s=19
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,944
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Where was the training camp for the Taliban?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    It would be a long and bloody guerilla war. One that the Taiwanese have been preparing for for 70 years. With rainforest, the highest mountains east of the Himalayas, indigineous tribes who would face the fate of the Uighurs, know their way around and speak unintelligible languages. And every male trained.
    I am not claiming the Taiwanese would win, But they could drag it out. With unpredictable results for an invasion force not expecting resistance, nor used to fighting. And for a home population not anticipating body bags by the load.
    What's more. The cities are laid out to maximise fire zones. Every school is designed to be a strongpoint with a huge kill zone. And every building is high rise designed for snipers.
    It is a long way from a cost free stroll.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    Foul play in India?

    India’s main opposition party, the Indian National Congress, has criticised Twitter for locking them out of their accounts on the platform, claiming the decision was taken due to pressure from India’s Prime Minister, Narendra Modi.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/twitter-india-congress-rahul-gandhi-b1901351.html
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,652
    dixiedean said:

    geoffw said:

    dixiedean said:

    Time for your regular reminder that the PRC won't be waltzing into Taiwan anytime soon.
    Not without a vast amount of time, money and blood that is.
    Comparisons with Vietnam and Afghanistan are, however, apposite.

    Really? I appreciate your knowledge and interest in Taiwan, but do you think that China invading would end like the US in Vietnam and Afghanistan?

    It would be a long and bloody guerilla war. One that the Taiwanese have been preparing for for 70 years. With rainforest, the highest mountains east of the Himalayas, indigineous tribes who would face the fate of the Uighurs, know their way around and speak unintelligible languages. And every male trained.
    I am not claiming the Taiwanese would win, But they could drag it out. With unpredictable results for an invasion force not expecting resistance, nor used to fighting. And for a home population not anticipating body bags by the load.
    It's an awful prospect. More like a civil war than invasion by an outside power. Chinese confronting their ethnic kin could be problematical for the regime in Beijing.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    edited August 12
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,701
    Worrying times - KFC having supply issues again.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,490

    Paging Leon.....WHO chief points finger ar Wuhan Lab....

    https://twitter.com/TmorrowsPapers/status/1425930830707363846?s=19

    This can’t be true. When Trump and Pompeo made these claims they were routinely derided and Trunp criticised for calling it the China virus.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,944
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    It is going to be hard to deny any Afghan who gets to Britain their claim to asylum.
    Priti: Just watch me.
    "Anti-migrant protesters have attacked houses, shops and cars owned by Syrians in Turkey's capital after tensions flared over the alleged killing of a local teenager."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58185612
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    It is going to be hard to deny any Afghan who gets to Britain their claim to asylum.
    Priti: Just watch me.
    "Anti-migrant protesters have attacked houses, shops and cars owned by Syrians in Turkey's capital after tensions flared over the alleged killing of a local teenager."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58185612
    Looking forward to the first claims that Iran, Iraq and Turkey are safe countries for Afghan refugees.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,186
    A quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,878
    Highlights of today's play at Lords with Hindi commentary, courtesy of the England and Wales cricket board.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61pSusOWjQ
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646

    Worrying times - KFC having supply issues again.

    Kandahar Fried Chicken?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668
    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
    The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

    Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Even David Gauke 'This is worth reading. I think President Biden is a good man but he has made a disastrous mistake.'
    https://twitter.com/DavidGauke/status/1425928261343793157?s=20
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646
    edited August 12
    HYUFD said:

    Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20

    Boris is also withdrawing... troops.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20

    Boris is also withdrawing... troops.
    Only as Biden is, though yes Bush and Blair did a better job on this, as indeed did Obama in getting Bin Laden
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    How is that not your view if you think they must be rooted out thoroughly?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
    The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

    Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps
    What "training camps"?

    They leaned to fly in Florida. That is where their training was done.

    The Taliban going from place to place seizing them all are already trained even before they take Kabul. Even before Biden withdrew troops. Where do you think that training was done?

    Stop for a microsecond and actually THINK about this! 🤦‍♂️
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    How is that not your view if you think they must be rooted out thoroughly?
    Well it would be better than withdrawing from Afghanistan though to be frank Imran Khan as Pakistani PM is better than most alternatives
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?
    When the next bomb explodes in London we may not have much choice
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?
    When the next bomb explodes in London we may not have much choice
    For the sake of your political career - step away from the keyboard and call it a night
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?
    All combined, fewer US and UK citizens have been killed by them than those killed on 9/11 by some margin
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,646
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    Have you signed up to fight the Taliban yet?
    When the next bomb explodes in London we may not have much choice
    You almost sound as if you WANT there to be more terrorist attacks!
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,490
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20

    Boris is also withdrawing... troops.
    Only as Biden is, though yes Bush and Blair did a better job on this, as indeed did Obama in getting Bin Laden
    Shame about all those wedding parties decimated by drone strikes under his reign, mind you
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    If Bush was serious he would have invaded Pakistan in 2001/02 when the Taliban fled there and the Pakistanis refused to do anything about it, yes.

    He didn't. He let the Taliban have safe harbour in Pakistan where they've been training in camps with impunity for decades. And you're worried about the emergence of training camps now? They already exist! That's why the Taliban fighters some of whom were not even born twenty years ago are already trained up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
    Would certainly mean a real fight for Biden.

    But how on earth can that ticket get past the Trump cult loons who now control most of the GOP? Only if Trump drops dead frankly.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?
    All combined, fewer US and UK citizens have been killed by them than those killed on 9/11 by some margin
    Is that what I asked you?

    Clue - no it wasn't

    Try again
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,944
    edited August 12
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    The terrorists are going to successfully launch a 9/11 attack that they haven't been able to do in 20 years, just because the taliban have taken over Afghanistan?

    You've truly lost it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    Cyclefree said:

    Were I an Afghan woman tonight, I would be doing whatever it takes to get out of the country. They - more than any other group - are hugely at risk under Taliban rule. As they were before.

    But my guess is that we will see a lot of male Afghan refugees soon enough and no-one will ask what has happened to the women and girls.

    No doubt true, but it is much harder for women to travel far in those parts. It doesn't mean the men are not legitimate refugees.

    We could take female refugees from the camps in Pakistan if we wanted, but cannot see Priti pushing for that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
    I think a Trump-Biden ticket is pretty unlikely too.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,777
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
    The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

    Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps
    Al-Qaeda was based in Sudan when the larger Bojinka* plot was being prepared.

    It would be nice to think we just had to hold one bit of territory to thwart them, but it's total nonsense.

    * Based out of the Philippines the plot involed killing the Pope as a distraction, then blowing up 11 airliners around Asia-Pacific, followed by crashing a plane into the CIA HQ. It would have been a bigger "9/11" before 9/11.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
    The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

    Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps
    What "training camps"?

    They leaned to fly in Florida. That is where their training was done.

    The Taliban going from place to place seizing them all are already trained even before they take Kabul. Even before Biden withdrew troops. Where do you think that training was done?

    Stop for a microsecond and actually THINK about this! 🤦‍♂️
    'The attacks were conceived by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who first presented it to Osama bin Laden in 1996. At that time, bin Laden and al-Qaeda were in a period of transition, having just relocated back to Afghanistan from Sudan...In late 1999, a group of men from Hamburg, Germany arrived in Afghanistan; the group included Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh. Bin Laden selected these men because they were educated, could speak English, and had experience living in the West.'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#cite_note-911-ch5-69

    They learnt to go undercover in the west in Afghanistan
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Yes, it's a very clear desire to differentiate herself from Trump.

    The question is, can she avoid drawing his ire?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,476
    HYUFD said:


    Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.

    Khan is pushing the Taliban to join peace talks, though for Ghani to leave office too
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/imran-khan-says-taliban-won-t-talk-to-aghan-govt-until-ashraf-ghani-remains-president-101628760415443.html
    I do wonder about future Pakistan-Afghan relations. It's one thing to provide support for people undermining your neighbour. It's another to have them actually in power, on an equal standing to you.

    What is the Taliban view of the Saudi-Iran quarrel?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?
    All combined, fewer US and UK citizens have been killed by them than those killed on 9/11 by some margin
    Is that what I asked you?

    Clue - no it wasn't

    Try again
    Nope it was exactly the point, our citizens were killed, we had to respond.

    It was the biggest postwar terrorist attack on westerners by some margin
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    The terrorists are going to successfully launch a 9/11 attack that they haven't been able to do in 20 years, just because the taliban have taken over Afghanistan?

    You've truly lost it.
    Of course, as Afghanistan was where they had the bases and camps to plan them
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    This is a mishandled adventure that will forever be the legacy of George W Bush. Not Biden.
    Luckily for Biden the US electorate has the memory of a goldfish, and this will be forgotten come the midterms
    Until the next skyscraper falls in LA or NYC or Chicago or another major US city with another few thousand dead in another terrorist attack planned and launched from Afghanistan by terrorists under Taliban protection.

    That could now only be a few years away if Kabul falls
    Did you not realise or did you not understand or just simply not care that Islamists have been operating with impunity for the past decades sponsored by or within Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

    It's not simply Afghanistan alone. When the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis trained in Florida.
    The Saudis did not house their training camps, they had to move to Afghanistan for that.

    Undercover cells in Florida is not the same as open training camps
    What "training camps"?

    They leaned to fly in Florida. That is where their training was done.

    The Taliban going from place to place seizing them all are already trained even before they take Kabul. Even before Biden withdrew troops. Where do you think that training was done?

    Stop for a microsecond and actually THINK about this! 🤦‍♂️
    'The attacks were conceived by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who first presented it to Osama bin Laden in 1996. At that time, bin Laden and al-Qaeda were in a period of transition, having just relocated back to Afghanistan from Sudan...In late 1999, a group of men from Hamburg, Germany arrived in Afghanistan; the group included Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh. Bin Laden selected these men because they were educated, could speak English, and had experience living in the West.'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#cite_note-911-ch5-69

    They learnt to go undercover in the west in Afghanistan
    And that means it's the only place they can learn such a thing? Theres something unique about Afghanistan in that respect?

    I dont even understand what you're trying to say.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
    Would certainly mean a real fight for Biden.

    But how on earth can that ticket get past the Trump cult loons who now control most of the GOP? Only if Trump drops dead frankly.
    If there is 9/11 2 that would concentrate minds
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
    Would certainly mean a real fight for Biden.

    But how on earth can that ticket get past the Trump cult loons who now control most of the GOP? Only if Trump drops dead frankly.
    If Trump drops dead, someone more extreme will win the nomination. Certainly not Romney.
    Such is the state of the GOP selectorate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630
    Quiz question for PBers:

    How many US Vice Presidents have managed eight years (or more) in the office?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    MaxPB said:

    Man I really thought hyfud would be happy about the troops coming home, just in case we need them deployed to invade Scotland.

    We do need a much bigger army certainly (though not to invade Scotland, Scotland remains part of the UK)
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,490

    HYUFD said:


    Pakistan have been the biggest backers of the Taliban over the last 30 years.

    Khan is pushing the Taliban to join peace talks, though for Ghani to leave office too
    https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/imran-khan-says-taliban-won-t-talk-to-aghan-govt-until-ashraf-ghani-remains-president-101628760415443.html
    I do wonder about future Pakistan-Afghan relations. It's one thing to provide support for people undermining your neighbour. It's another to have them actually in power, on an equal standing to you.

    What is the Taliban view of the Saudi-Iran quarrel?
    If Pakistan Afghan relations are going to be anything like commentary on social media then it will be fractious.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,186

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    The terrorists are going to successfully launch a 9/11 attack that they haven't been able to do in 20 years, just because the taliban have taken over Afghanistan?

    You've truly lost it.
    No, @HYUFD hasn't lost it, although it's unclear at present whether a Taliban-run Afghanistan will once again provide a free hand to Al Queda or its successors, as they did 20 years ago. I'd guess not, but it's one of a number of risks Biden is taking here.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Yes, it's a very clear desire to differentiate herself from Trump.

    The question is, can she avoid drawing his ire?
    Nikki Haley and the rest of these Republicans want to have a permanent occupation of a country on the other side of the world. The deaths of grunts in the US army is a price she is willing to pay for it. Of course it won't be her kids over there dying.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630

    A quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing.

    Who's @malcolmg been fighting with now?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    The terrorists are going to successfully launch a 9/11 attack that they haven't been able to do in 20 years, just because the taliban have taken over Afghanistan?

    You've truly lost it.
    No, @HYUFD hasn't lost it, although it's unclear at present whether a Taliban-run Afghanistan will once again provide a free hand to Al Queda or its successors, as they did 20 years ago. I'd guess not, but it's one of a number of risks Biden is taking here.
    If they do then we drone the hell out of them. No need for an occupying army.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    The problem with the sauve qui peut on the part of the West in Afghanistan is that it will sooner or later have an impact on us. Millions of refugees will head West, and the country will again become a haven for anti-Western terrorist groups.

    NATO forces could never eliminate the Taliban, but they were quite capable of containing them,. HYUFD is right about this.

    Morally yes, but I am not sure Kabul falling .has as much political impact in the US as perhaps it should.
    Until the next US skyscraper falls, which unfortunately it may well soon do as soon as Afghanistan becomes one big training camp for terrorists again
    Does the (always inevitable) fall of Afghanistan somehow magically bypass all the airline security measures brought in since 9/11?
    It only needs them to get through once, with thousands of terrorists back in Afghanistan trying it every day it will happen one day
    I'm curious - do you know how many terror attacks have been carried out by Islamic fundamentalists NOT trained in Afghanistan?
    All combined, fewer US and UK citizens have been killed by them than those killed on 9/11 by some margin
    Is that what I asked you?

    Clue - no it wasn't

    Try again
    Nope it was exactly the point, our citizens were killed, we had to respond.

    It was the biggest postwar terrorist attack on westerners by some margin
    And we responded by chasing them across the border into Pakistan and saying "ok Mission Accomplished, you stay there now and learn your lesson."

    We should have stopped them escaping into Pakistan in the first place and if the War on Terror was meant to be serious we should have followed them into Pakistan and continued the fight there. No refuge for them, no safe harbour. That was kind of the point.

    Instead Bush half arsed it then moved on to Iraq allowing the Taliban and al'Qaeda to survive and rebuild and have decades of training camps.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well said Nikki Haley, please run in 2024

    'Under President Biden’s watch terrorists are on their way to taking over all of Afghanistan and we are urgently evacuating American citizens from our embassy.

    Biden's weakness emboldens our enemies and makes Americans less safe.'
    https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1425930518630072320?s=20

    That's an implicit attack on Trump too presumably.
    Romney-Haley would be a great ticket in 2024, forget Trump and Biden
    Would certainly mean a real fight for Biden.

    But how on earth can that ticket get past the Trump cult loons who now control most of the GOP? Only if Trump drops dead frankly.
    If Trump drops dead, someone more extreme will win the nomination. Certainly not Romney.
    Such is the state of the GOP selectorate.
    It will be DeSantis.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 733
    edited August 12
    Again, just for notes. The Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community were against this withdrawal at this time. This is not Westmoreland in Vietnam, the US miltary knows all too well the limitations in its presence in Afghanistan and sees this in very pragmatic terms. The DoD still opposed it.

    Two other notes,

    The best of the Afghan forces are in Kabul, some of what is in the provinces isnt up to much. You then have the other Ethinic groups. The Taliban is heavily Pashtun but if you look at the map I think in the Guardian showing the Taliban advance there is a very big hole there which is not in dispute. Its Tajik dominated so is an example of how this may end up looking.

    The Taliban can rolll over territory if the ANA & ANP dont fight but as history has proven so many times over, you need a lot more staff to occupy and control than you do to invade.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Senator Mitt Romney too 'The Biden administration’s unwillingness to alter the Afghan withdrawal plan based on changing circumstances on the ground & the grave implications for US security interests is a tragedy & a cause for serious concern about how the administration will deal with global challenges.'
    https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1425528461628776448?s=20

    Boris is also withdrawing... troops.
    Only as Biden is, though yes Bush and Blair did a better job on this, as indeed did Obama in getting Bin Laden
    Shame about all those wedding parties decimated by drone strikes under his reign, mind you
    It's done wonders for the divorce rate, mind.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,384

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Thread on Afghanistan...

    HUNDREDS of Paras will swoop into Kabul to evacuate the British Embassy and up to 4,000 Brits, contractors and staff – amid fears the city will fall to the Taliban.

    Only a skeleton staff including ambassador Sir Laurie Bristow will stay in the besieged Afghan capital.

    https://twitter.com/jeromestarkey/status/1425890912639590402?s=19

    Shameful and this will define the Biden-Harris administration now, whatever else it does this will be the greatest US humiliation since Vietnam.

    We are not much better either as we also prepare to abandon our Embassy, however we are not big enough alone to stay in Afghanistan and maintain security and keep out the Taliban and terrorists without US support
    Damn right

    Instead the Biden-Harris administration should be defined by propping up an unpopular regime in Afghanistan with US lives and money.
    Correct. It would avoid another 9/11, 9/11 2 now very much on the cards.

    There have still been fewer US troops killed in Afghanistan in 20 years than the number of US civilians killed in NYC on 9/11 in 1 day thanks to an attack planned by Bin Laden in Afghanistan
    Absolutely farcical. Pretty sure rcs was being sarcastic which you've missed.

    Bin Laden, the Taliban, and al'Qaeda have had almost free reign in Pakistan for the past twenty years. Our invasion of Afghanistan never defeated the Taliban, it just relocated them. It never defeated al'Qaeda, they just relocated.

    Bush's failure to secure Pakistan as part of the war meant the whole invasion and its aftermath has been a miserable failure.

    Occupying Afghanistan was not preventing the Taliban or al'Qaeda or other Islamists from operating pretty much with impunity.
    It was the invasion which forced Bin Laden into Pakistan where Bin Laden was killed by US special forces.

    Whatever you think of Pakistani PM Imran Khan he is also relatively westernised for the region, he is not the Taliban even if a solid Muslim
    Pakistan has been home of the Taliban for decades.

    The Pakistani regime either can not or will not control or eliminate the Taliban from its northern mountain ranges especially and we never went after them as part of Bush's Afghan war which is why it was a complete and total failure.

    The legacy of which is now.

    You can put your head in all the sand of the Middle East if you please but your simplistic black and white world view doesn't work here.
    It was Bush who removed the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan it is Biden letting them back in.

    On your argument we should invade Pakistan too and go even further
    If Bush was serious he would have invaded Pakistan in 2001/02 when the Taliban fled there and the Pakistanis refused to do anything about it, yes.

    He didn't. He let the Taliban have safe harbour in Pakistan where they've been training in camps with impunity for decades. And you're worried about the emergence of training camps now? They already exist! That's why the Taliban fighters some of whom were not even born twenty years ago are already trained up.
    So it therefore follows that it does not matter whether we withdraw from Afghanistan or not.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,630
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question for PBers:

    How many US Vice Presidents have managed eight years (or more) in the office?

    Come on guys - I want to see some serious guesses.
This discussion has been closed.