The latest Ipsos-MORI phone poll where I was part of the sample – politicalbetting.com

Test

Omnium said:

Proper test - not the sneaky Smithson type!

The only reason I post the first comment is to check that the commenting system is working.

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Well, it sounds as though a lot of air is exchanged there, so all you were doing was taking the practical route.

Breaking news

BBC News - Chijindu Ujah: British Olympic silver medallist suspended after positive test for banned substance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/58193101

ping said:

So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

What was the fking point?

Humiliation.

The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

(Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)

Razedabode said:

ping said:

So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

What was the fking point?

Humiliation.

The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

(Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)

It was.

ydoethur said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

225-2 after being put in.

Disaster.

Not entirely gone to plan...

"the chances of that must be about one in several hundred thousand"

Sample was 1,113 British adults. There are ~51 million British adults. Naive probability estimate is 1-in-46,000.

However, the probability is likely a bit higher than that, since you're in a demographic more likely to find itself in the sample, because of your age and willingness to take part in an opinion poll.

Razedabode said:

ping said:

So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

What was the fking point?

Humiliation.

The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

(Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)

We didn't have any choice but to follow. We don't have the military power to remain there without the US.

FPT for Theuniondivvie

‘There was a programme on R4 a couple of years ago on the phenomenon of down at heel, impoverished urban areas (Brooklyn, Kreuzberg, various London neighbourhoods) becoming artistic hot spots; squats, cheap property, cheap to live etc, with the concomitant gentrification following. They suggested Athens was set to become the next big thing, any sign of that?’

Not really. Maybe some tiny hints here and there. Part of the problem is the moribund Greek economy. Brooklyn is situated in the biggest economy on earth. Shoreditch Hoxton etc are in a world city with many rich people. Kreuzberg was ripe for investment, as part of the new reunified German capital of Berlin

Athens is a crumbling city in a crumbling country. And the language is a barrier, even tho many of the young now speak good English

But my, Athens still has the power to wow. I haven’t seen the Acropolis since I was a very young man. It is just fucking AWESOME. This mighty THING, surmounted by gleaming temples.

I climb it tomorrow.. I might drink in every taverna on the way down. The weather continues sublime

Umpteenth.

FPT Heat Pumps:

Stuartinromford said:

williamglenn said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

williamglenn said:

StuartDickson said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Talking of green policies, we've just had a preliminary estimate for installing a heat pump system for Chez Nabavi.

Gulp!!!

All Swedish detached houses have them. We replaced ours a couple of years ago. It was only 12 years old. 15 years seems to be typical lifespan.

A fiddle to maintain and Top Tip: look out for decibels! The cheap ones are significantly noisier than the pricey ones.

I think ours (Nibe) was about 55.000 SEK, including labour and removal old pump (IVT).

If everyone in a densely populated area is using an air-source heat pump, it must end up lowering the ambient temperature outside?

Surely it would increase it: it's bringing heat from deep earth to the surface.

Not the ones that use outside air as a heat source. Apparently they can operate even when the air temperature is as low as -15.

They still put heat into the atmosphere overall, just as a fridge or a supermarket refrigerated counter does. The overall effect is the electrical power coming in, the rest is just moving heat from one place to another. It eventually escapes from the house, to balance the heat being taken from the air immediately around the heat pump.

The key word is eventually. I'm thinking of the scenario of a cold night where everyone turns their heating on fully.

Bearing in mind that it's a looong time since I thought about this properly, I think @Richard_Nabavi has picked one of the key points. If you compare "all the heat pumps running" with "no heat pumps running", the difference is the electricity powering the pumps, so eventually you end up with that energy dissipating in the surroundings as heat.

But whilst the effect of the heat pump will be to remove heat from the outside to take to the inside (a bit like the way that the back of old fridges and freezers is noticeably warm), I doubt you'd get a measurable effect on outside temperatures. There's a lot of air outside and, even on a still night, it's very mobile.

Yes. Compared to the environment, any amounts of heat involved are small.

But a heat pump will put in far less heat than the previous system by definition. Typically it will actually use only 1/3 as much energy to run it (with a COP of 3:1) compared to any direct system (whether say Electrical Resistance or a Gas Boiler) so the energy input is reduced by 2/3 everything else being equal. That is the whole point of a pump.

And any heat drawn inside will have leaked back out in a day or two. Which is a net zero.

A gas boiler by comparison will draw no heat in from outside, but will add 3 times as much energy as a heat pump.

So a heat pump won't on the overall scheme heat up the atmosphere more.

(Ignoring energy lost in eg generation and transmission).

FPT

Northern_Al said:

StuartDickson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OK @kinabalu I have looked into and done a statistical analysis of English nationalist sentiment and the far right.

I have taken the UK's best political blog as a point of reference. There are unabashed English nationalists on this website that post here.

You have in your own judgement determined that there are not any English nationalist far right posters on here.

Therefore by a rigorous statistical analysis, there is an r^2 value of 0 correlating English nationalism with the far right, as per this website and your own opinion.

Case closed.

That's a reasaonable first tack - to look at here. And it's not zero, not at all. There's a couple on 'Watch' as I said - loose use of couple as in 3 or 4 - and plus there's some unsavouries who've been banned in recent weeks. So I'd say this is enough to continue our investigation rather than any sort of excuse to shut it down. YOUR investigation, I mean, since I've already done it.

On a more general note there do seem to be people extremely concerned about far right extremists in the UK. Of course these extremists may have absolutely nothing to do with English Nationalism, but just enjoy prancing about in jackboots and being down on brown people.

'Fastest-growing UK terror threat 'from far-right''

'Violent right-wing extremism is a ‘major threat’ in the UK, MI5 boss says'

'Future Trends: Far-Right Terrorism in the UK – A Major Threat?'

'Racism fuelling far-right threat in UK - MI5's Ken McCallum warns'

What has any of that whatsoever got to do with English nationalism?

There is an issue with far right extremism but that's got nothing to do with the belief that England should be a self-governing nation.

Q. Are the English Defence League English nationalists?

No.

Bit shocking that you're deciding that people who at various times have described themselves as English nationalists are wrong about this. More than a whiff of the metropolitan elite talking down to the fruitcakes and loonies and closet racists.

English nationalism is the belief that England should be a self-governing, independent nation. That's what the word means.

I see nothing from the EDL to say they have that belief. All I see from them is racism. I don't care what they self-identify as, or what flag they try to misappropriate, if they're not advocating for that then they're not English nationalists.

The EDL do believe that England should be a self-governing, independent nation.

They just don't believe it should include 'foreigners', particularly those from one particular religious background. Not very far to the right of Farage, his fellow travellers and those who have ever voted for him.

They are definitely English nationalists.

Can you give me a citation please on the EDL believing that England should be independent and apart from Scotland? I've never heard anything about that from them.

They're racist scumbags. No more and no less, don't enlighten them as to being anything other that racist bigots.

No I can't, but the clue's in the name, I suspect - what's the E stand for? No mention of Scotland (or Wales for that matter). I suspect they'd be happy to allow the sectarian Unionists of NI to belong, though.

So you can't, good, and no the clue is not in the name. The name England does not make you an England nationalist. Is the England football team full of England nationalists? The England Cricket Team? The ECB?

They're racist shithead scum. I've never seen anything from them on English independence and neither have you, so that doesn't make them nationalists.

I should have known better than to engage with you. Bonkers and pointless comparisons.

I’m afraid Philip is correct. Simply having the name English in the name of an organisation does not automatically make it nationalist.

Eg. the Scottish National Trust is a deeply Unionist and conservative organisation
The African National Congress does not seek a United Africa (AFAIAA)
The British Library is not a British nationalist organisation
The English National Opera is not English nationalist

I can't believe that I got embroiled in this discussion. The idea that the English Defence League isn't an English nationalist party that doesn't want to Defend, er, England specifically (rather than Scotland, Wales or Britain) is ludicrous. I believe you can be both nationalist and fascist.

You can be, but it's almost inevitably not the case that people are both, since there's absolutely nothing linking nationalism to fascism (any more than there is linking socialism to it).

As it happens, from Googling them and reading Wikipedia it seems you have it backwards. The EDL and their sister organisations the WDL and SDL are not nationalists. They are unionists.

Take this picture of an EDL protest at a Scottish independence rally. Look at the flags chosen. What does that scream to you: English Nationalists wanting Scottish Independence? Unionists? Rangers fans?

https://www.alamy.com/tommy-robinson-speaking-at-the-auob-scottish-independence-march-in-george-square-glasgow-scotland-uk-on-4th-may-2019-image245525832.html

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking news

BBC News - Chijindu Ujah: British Olympic silver medallist suspended after positive test for banned substance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/58193101

Not the first. Won’t be the last. The pressure to win is immense, and some just cannot resist cheating.

But rest assured, this is not an isolated individual. Cheating in the current environment requires organisation. For every cheat caught there are a significant number of cheats in the team behind them. If the government wanted to root them out it could.

People have been trying to get rid of cheating in sports since before the original, Greek, Olympics.

StuartDickson said:

Omnium said:

StuartDickson said:

Scottish split Ipsos Mori
SNP 54%
SCon 16%
SLab 13%
SLD 8%
SGP 6%
oth 3%

There's a lot of 'Scottish' in that. Tricky as we, the English, plan on keeping you all prisoners of the process forever and ever and ever.

That’s what the parties call themselves: it’s what electors see on the Ballot Paper when they go into the polling station. An awful lot of “Scottish”. It’s a very, very popular brand. Not a heck of a lot of “British” on those ballot papers. Bit of a dud that brand.

Of course most of those “Scottish” organisations are nothing of the sort, proving Philip’s point on the previous thread.

And Labour aren't Scottish at all, but the same lot as down south - not even the figleaf of a separate accounting centre (which is why Kezia Dugdale's chain got yanked by the organist when she tried to spend too much money omn her law case). There is a deliberate clause in the electoral legislation which allows SLAB to breach what would otherwise be the law at every Scottish general, by and local election.

Razedabode said:

ping said:

So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

What was the fking point?

Humiliation.

The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

(Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)

If they cannot look after themselves for a few weeks after twenty years of pouring in money , WTF point is there spending another 20 years doing the same. It was a big mistake from the get go and someone finally had the cojones to pull the plug.

Leon said:

FPT for Theuniondivvie

‘There was a programme on R4 a couple of years ago on the phenomenon of down at heel, impoverished urban areas (Brooklyn, Kreuzberg, various London neighbourhoods) becoming artistic hot spots; squats, cheap property, cheap to live etc, with the concomitant gentrification following. They suggested Athens was set to become the next big thing, any sign of that?’

Not really. Maybe some tiny hints here and there. Part of the problem is the moribund Greek economy. Brooklyn is situated in the biggest economy on earth. Shoreditch Hoxton etc are in a world city with many rich people. Kreuzberg was ripe for investment, as part of the new reunified German capital of Berlin

Athens is a crumbling city in a crumbling country. And the language is a barrier, even tho many of the young now speak good English

But my, Athens still has the power to wow. I haven’t seen the Acropolis since I was a very young man. It is just fucking AWESOME. This mighty THING, surmounted by gleaming temples.

I climb it tomorrow.. I might drink in every taverna on the way down. The weather continues sublime

Do tell us about it - I might even seek your recommendations and plan a trip when the covid shite is over, or at least rather less intrusive. I want to pay respect to the original Boule and the Agora and the Stoa Poikile and the Grove of Academe and the Kerameikon.

StuartDickson said:

Omnium said:

StuartDickson said:

Scottish split Ipsos Mori
SNP 54%
SCon 16%
SLab 13%
SLD 8%
SGP 6%
oth 3%

There's a lot of 'Scottish' in that. Tricky as we, the English, plan on keeping you all prisoners of the process forever and ever and ever.

That’s what the parties call themselves: it’s what electors see on the Ballot Paper when they go into the polling station. An awful lot of “Scottish”. It’s a very, very popular brand. Not a heck of a lot of “British” on those ballot papers. Bit of a dud that brand.

Of course most of those “Scottish” organisations are nothing of the sort, proving Philip’s point on the previous thread.

British is probably the best brand ever. The notion of Scottish is fantastic.

Omnium said:

StuartDickson said:

Scottish split Ipsos Mori
SNP 54%
SCon 16%
SLab 13%
SLD 8%
SGP 6%
oth 3%

There's a lot of 'Scottish' in that. Tricky as we, the English, plan on keeping you all prisoners of the process forever and ever and ever.

3 of thesupposed "Scottish" are pretendy English sub regional branches. Only 2 real Scottish registered parties there ( excl others).
PS: they avoid British as they would get even less support than the current meagre pickings.

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

malcolmg said:

Razedabode said:

ping said:

So. We spent twenty years and all the blood sweat and treasure building up the Afghan state and armed forces and it just crumbles in a few weeks.

What was the fking point?

Humiliation.

The Biden decision was some of the worse American foreign policy… I can only imagine the outcry if that were Trumps decision

(Though the fact we followed as usual says it all)

If they cannot look after themselves for a few weeks after twenty years of pouring in money , WTF point is there spending another 20 years doing the same. It was a big mistake from the get go and someone finally had the cojones to pull the plug.

I think the same would apply to the kindly English looking after the Scotch if the Scotch ever made the error to vote for Indy.

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The Persians did know how to build a mean water distribution system though.

LostPassword said:

"the chances of that must be about one in several hundred thousand"

Sample was 1,113 British adults. There are ~51 million British adults. Naive probability estimate is 1-in-46,000.

However, the probability is likely a bit higher than that, since you're in a demographic more likely to find itself in the sample, because of your age and willingness to take part in an opinion poll.

But that's just the probability of being in the sample for this specific opinion poll, this month.

This blog has been operating for ~17 years, during which time there will have been 204 monthly Ipsos-MORI opinion polls. At the start of that period there would have been other phone polls, but let's just consider Mori for now (though we can appeal to these other polls when someone points out that Mori skipped the odd month here and there).

The probability of being part of any of those 204 opinion polls is:
1 - (45999 / 46000) ^ 204 = 1-in-226

It's not that unlikely.

state_go_away said:

ydoethur said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

225-2 after being put in.

Disaster.

utter shambles

Never mind, when’s The Hundred on ?

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Northern_Al said:

StuartDickson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OK @kinabalu I have looked into and done a statistical analysis of English nationalist sentiment and the far right.

I have taken the UK's best political blog as a point of reference. There are unabashed English nationalists on this website that post here.

You have in your own judgement determined that there are not any English nationalist far right posters on here.

Therefore by a rigorous statistical analysis, there is an r^2 value of 0 correlating English nationalism with the far right, as per this website and your own opinion.

Case closed.

That's a reasaonable first tack - to look at here. And it's not zero, not at all. There's a couple on 'Watch' as I said - loose use of couple as in 3 or 4 - and plus there's some unsavouries who've been banned in recent weeks. So I'd say this is enough to continue our investigation rather than any sort of excuse to shut it down. YOUR investigation, I mean, since I've already done it.

On a more general note there do seem to be people extremely concerned about far right extremists in the UK. Of course these extremists may have absolutely nothing to do with English Nationalism, but just enjoy prancing about in jackboots and being down on brown people.

'Fastest-growing UK terror threat 'from far-right''

'Violent right-wing extremism is a ‘major threat’ in the UK, MI5 boss says'

'Future Trends: Far-Right Terrorism in the UK – A Major Threat?'

'Racism fuelling far-right threat in UK - MI5's Ken McCallum warns'

What has any of that whatsoever got to do with English nationalism?

There is an issue with far right extremism but that's got nothing to do with the belief that England should be a self-governing nation.

Q. Are the English Defence League English nationalists?

No.

Bit shocking that you're deciding that people who at various times have described themselves as English nationalists are wrong about this. More than a whiff of the metropolitan elite talking down to the fruitcakes and loonies and closet racists.

English nationalism is the belief that England should be a self-governing, independent nation. That's what the word means.

I see nothing from the EDL to say they have that belief. All I see from them is racism. I don't care what they self-identify as, or what flag they try to misappropriate, if they're not advocating for that then they're not English nationalists.

The EDL do believe that England should be a self-governing, independent nation.

They just don't believe it should include 'foreigners', particularly those from one particular religious background. Not very far to the right of Farage, his fellow travellers and those who have ever voted for him.

They are definitely English nationalists.

Can you give me a citation please on the EDL believing that England should be independent and apart from Scotland? I've never heard anything about that from them.

They're racist scumbags. No more and no less, don't enlighten them as to being anything other that racist bigots.

No I can't, but the clue's in the name, I suspect - what's the E stand for? No mention of Scotland (or Wales for that matter). I suspect they'd be happy to allow the sectarian Unionists of NI to belong, though.

So you can't, good, and no the clue is not in the name. The name England does not make you an England nationalist. Is the England football team full of England nationalists? The England Cricket Team? The ECB?

They're racist shithead scum. I've never seen anything from them on English independence and neither have you, so that doesn't make them nationalists.

I should have known better than to engage with you. Bonkers and pointless comparisons.

I’m afraid Philip is correct. Simply having the name English in the name of an organisation does not automatically make it nationalist.

Eg. the Scottish National Trust is a deeply Unionist and conservative organisation
The African National Congress does not seek a United Africa (AFAIAA)
The British Library is not a British nationalist organisation
The English National Opera is not English nationalist

I can't believe that I got embroiled in this discussion. The idea that the English Defence League isn't an English nationalist party that doesn't want to Defend, er, England specifically (rather than Scotland, Wales or Britain) is ludicrous. I believe you can be both nationalist and fascist.

You can be, but it's almost inevitably not the case that people are both, since there's absolutely nothing linking nationalism to fascism (any more than there is linking socialism to it).

As it happens, from Googling them and reading Wikipedia it seems you have it backwards. The EDL and their sister organisations the WDL and SDL are not nationalists. They are unionists.

Take this picture of an EDL protest at a Scottish independence rally. Look at the flags chosen. What does that scream to you: English Nationalists wanting Scottish Independence? Unionists? Rangers fans?

https://www.alamy.com/tommy-robinson-speaking-at-the-auob-scottish-independence-march-in-george-square-glasgow-scotland-uk-on-4th-may-2019-image245525832.html

Ah so now you ARE looking into it. I could take umbrage since when it was me suggesting it you refused, but I won't. A result is a result.

Not because of you. I asked you to name something to look into and you failed to do so, since you had nothing to name. Because you had no point.

@Theuniondivvie asked if the EDL were English Nationalists and the answer looking into it is a categorical NO they are British unionists instead.

Now I won't be so petty as to suggest you investigate the link between unionism and racism.

StuartDickson said:

Malmesbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Malmesbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking news

BBC News - Chijindu Ujah: British Olympic silver medallist suspended after positive test for banned substance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/58193101

Not the first. Won’t be the last. The pressure to win is immense, and some just cannot resist cheating.

But rest assured, this is not an isolated individual. Cheating in the current environment requires organisation. For every cheat caught there are a significant number of cheats in the team behind them. If the government wanted to root them out it could.

People have been trying to get rid of cheating in sports since before the original, Greek, Olympics.

Absolutely. But I find it hilarious when numpties think that “they” cheat, but “we” don’t cheat. Cheating is a universal human trait. No nation is immune.

Linford Christie come to mind...

Linford Christie is one of 55 listed on this page, which is far from comprehensive:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_sportspeople_in_doping_cases

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Scottish_sportspeople_in_doping_cases

lists 8

:-)

FTP: Heat Pumps

The other surprising item for some on ASHPs is the huge volume of air involved.

Off out now.

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

Carnyx said:

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The Persians did know how to build a mean water distribution system though.

The qanats? Quite so. But they didn't invent the trieres/trireme. Arguably one of the most extreme examples of nautical architecture, beside the Mississippi steamboat (and both, coincidentally, relying on tension tructures - hogchains/hypozomata).

The real problem is whether to go for the Athenians or the Spartans. The former definitely ate better. I do like the book 'Courtesand and fishcakes'.

I’m reading that very book right now! Highly entertaining

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Byronic!

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Northern_Al said:

StuartDickson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Northern_Al said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Theuniondivvie said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OK @kinabalu I have looked into and done a statistical analysis of English nationalist sentiment and the far right.

I have taken the UK's best political blog as a point of reference. There are unabashed English nationalists on this website that post here.

You have in your own judgement determined that there are not any English nationalist far right posters on here.

Therefore by a rigorous statistical analysis, there is an r^2 value of 0 correlating English nationalism with the far right, as per this website and your own opinion.

Case closed.

That's a reasaonable first tack - to look at here. And it's not zero, not at all. There's a couple on 'Watch' as I said - loose use of couple as in 3 or 4 - and plus there's some unsavouries who've been banned in recent weeks. So I'd say this is enough to continue our investigation rather than any sort of excuse to shut it down. YOUR investigation, I mean, since I've already done it.

On a more general note there do seem to be people extremely concerned about far right extremists in the UK. Of course these extremists may have absolutely nothing to do with English Nationalism, but just enjoy prancing about in jackboots and being down on brown people.

'Fastest-growing UK terror threat 'from far-right''

'Violent right-wing extremism is a ‘major threat’ in the UK, MI5 boss says'

'Future Trends: Far-Right Terrorism in the UK – A Major Threat?'

'Racism fuelling far-right threat in UK - MI5's Ken McCallum warns'

What has any of that whatsoever got to do with English nationalism?

There is an issue with far right extremism but that's got nothing to do with the belief that England should be a self-governing nation.

Q. Are the English Defence League English nationalists?

No.

Bit shocking that you're deciding that people who at various times have described themselves as English nationalists are wrong about this. More than a whiff of the metropolitan elite talking down to the fruitcakes and loonies and closet racists.

English nationalism is the belief that England should be a self-governing, independent nation. That's what the word means.

I see nothing from the EDL to say they have that belief. All I see from them is racism. I don't care what they self-identify as, or what flag they try to misappropriate, if they're not advocating for that then they're not English nationalists.

The EDL do believe that England should be a self-governing, independent nation.

They just don't believe it should include 'foreigners', particularly those from one particular religious background. Not very far to the right of Farage, his fellow travellers and those who have ever voted for him.

They are definitely English nationalists.

Can you give me a citation please on the EDL believing that England should be independent and apart from Scotland? I've never heard anything about that from them.

They're racist scumbags. No more and no less, don't enlighten them as to being anything other that racist bigots.

No I can't, but the clue's in the name, I suspect - what's the E stand for? No mention of Scotland (or Wales for that matter). I suspect they'd be happy to allow the sectarian Unionists of NI to belong, though.

So you can't, good, and no the clue is not in the name. The name England does not make you an England nationalist. Is the England football team full of England nationalists? The England Cricket Team? The ECB?

They're racist shithead scum. I've never seen anything from them on English independence and neither have you, so that doesn't make them nationalists.

I should have known better than to engage with you. Bonkers and pointless comparisons.

I’m afraid Philip is correct. Simply having the name English in the name of an organisation does not automatically make it nationalist.

Eg. the Scottish National Trust is a deeply Unionist and conservative organisation
The African National Congress does not seek a United Africa (AFAIAA)
The British Library is not a British nationalist organisation
The English National Opera is not English nationalist

I can't believe that I got embroiled in this discussion. The idea that the English Defence League isn't an English nationalist party that doesn't want to Defend, er, England specifically (rather than Scotland, Wales or Britain) is ludicrous. I believe you can be both nationalist and fascist.

You can be, but it's almost inevitably not the case that people are both, since there's absolutely nothing linking nationalism to fascism (any more than there is linking socialism to it).

As it happens, from Googling them and reading Wikipedia it seems you have it backwards. The EDL and their sister organisations the WDL and SDL are not nationalists. They are unionists.

Take this picture of an EDL protest at a Scottish independence rally. Look at the flags chosen. What does that scream to you: English Nationalists wanting Scottish Independence? Unionists? Rangers fans?

https://www.alamy.com/tommy-robinson-speaking-at-the-auob-scottish-independence-march-in-george-square-glasgow-scotland-uk-on-4th-may-2019-image245525832.html

Ah so now you ARE looking into it. I could take umbrage since when it was me suggesting it you refused, but I won't. A result is a result.

Not because of you. I asked you to name something to look into and you failed to do so, since you had nothing to name. Because you had no point.

@Theuniondivvie asked if the EDL were English Nationalists and the answer looking into it is a categorical NO they are British unionists instead.

Now I won't be so petty as to suggest you investigate the link between unionism and racism.

Q2. As a sometime British nationalist, are you a Unionist?

StuartDickson said:

malcolmg said:

Omnium said:

StuartDickson said:

Scottish split Ipsos Mori
SNP 54%
SCon 16%
SLab 13%
SLD 8%
SGP 6%
oth 3%

There's a lot of 'Scottish' in that. Tricky as we, the English, plan on keeping you all prisoners of the process forever and ever and ever.

3 of thesupposed "Scottish" are pretendy English sub regional branches. Only 2 real Scottish registered parties there ( excl others).
PS: they avoid British as they would get even less support than the current meagre pickings.

Absolutely!

A long time ago a Scottish nationalist troll (yes, they exist!) went round the Wikipedia articles of every single Unionist politician (Robin Cook, Gordon Brown, Jim Wallace etc etc etc) changing every “is a Scottish politician” to “is a British politician”. Absolutely hilarious. And the funny thing is that about fifteen years later nobody has bothered removing the vandalism. One of many reasons to be wary of Wikipedia.

There is/was something called Conservapedia. The world through blue-tinted glasses. I dipped into it once and found the piece on East Lothian. Someone had done an edit to set out his view of human diversity there - as I recall miners and Romani/Shelta featured considerably in the genesis of your average East Lothian gadgie. I can't recall its remarks on the local Tories but they can be imagined. It wasn't corrected for the decade and more that I occasionally dipped in to check.

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Much of my reading about the classical world was extramural and post-school; I didn't do Ancient Greek for very long (did get my O level). So MarqueeMark would know much better. Hope he is okay; haven't seen him on here of late.

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.

Galician is the closest to Latin, I believe?

Hearing that Labour PADs (advisers) were told this morning their number is likely being cut by a third as part of brutal cost-cutting plans, meaning about 14 will be leaving their shadow ministers

https://twitter.com/JackElsom/status/1425820178491789312?s=19

Will anybody notice a difference in the quality output from the shadow ministers?

IshmaelZ said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.

But it didn't. I am currently trying to learn Spanish in 3 weeks so that I can speak to the Argentinian side at an Argie-Scots wedding, and I am pleased to report there is almost no learning involved. Spanish is easily as close to Latin as modern is to ancient Greek.

Perhaps the only difference is that multiple modern forms of Latin emerged, whereas there is only one modern Greek.

StuartDickson said:

Malmesbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking news

BBC News - Chijindu Ujah: British Olympic silver medallist suspended after positive test for banned substance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/58193101

Not the first. Won’t be the last. The pressure to win is immense, and some just cannot resist cheating.

But rest assured, this is not an isolated individual. Cheating in the current environment requires organisation. For every cheat caught there are a significant number of cheats in the team behind them. If the government wanted to root them out it could.

People have been trying to get rid of cheating in sports since before the original, Greek, Olympics.

Absolutely. But I find it hilarious when numpties think that “they” cheat, but “we” don’t cheat. Cheating is a universal human trait. No nation is immune.

Who says that? Nobody with half a brain thinks Team GB is 100% clean, however there is a world of difference between here and Russia or China or even the US.

You get caught cheating and you are lottery funded, not only do you lose your funding forever, they chase you for all the money back and you will be a total outcast should you ever cone back from your ban.

Remember with Dwayne Chambers they even fought legal action to have to select him, despite him getting qualifying times. And even when they lost the court case, it was very much you get no help, no assistant, we don't want anything to do with you.

Comparison Tyson Gay, 3 times he has been busted for drugs, and the Americans don't appear to be bothered, as soon as he is off his ban, back to the forefront.

The one big grey cloud in UK is the cycling.

StuartDickson said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.

Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.

(The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)

Did the Americans not take part as well?

StuartDickson said:

Malmesbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Malmesbury said:

StuartDickson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Breaking news

BBC News - Chijindu Ujah: British Olympic silver medallist suspended after positive test for banned substance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/58193101

Not the first. Won’t be the last. The pressure to win is immense, and some just cannot resist cheating.

But rest assured, this is not an isolated individual. Cheating in the current environment requires organisation. For every cheat caught there are a significant number of cheats in the team behind them. If the government wanted to root them out it could.

People have been trying to get rid of cheating in sports since before the original, Greek, Olympics.

Absolutely. But I find it hilarious when numpties think that “they” cheat, but “we” don’t cheat. Cheating is a universal human trait. No nation is immune.

Linford Christie come to mind...

EDIT: In the UK, the various sporting associations work pretty closely with the testing people, and indeed have been castigated as "unfair" for penalising athletes who have missed tests etc.

Missing a test is an extremely serious incident. They are 100% compulsory and every single sportsperson knows that. So the sports governing bodies are absolutely correct to come down on folk missing tests like a ton of bricks. Remember that Greek sprinter on his motorcycle trip?

Some sporting authorities are more lenient than others.

I recall comments about being "cold hearted", "no compassion" etc being used about the UK athletics authorities. There was even an attempt, on one occasion, to suggest that it was all a bit racist....

ydoethur said:

Carnyx said:

StuartDickson said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Benpointer said:

IshmaelZ said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Can’t believe I missed the whole PB August 2021 air-pump-versus-heat-pump Debate by stupidly visiting the Tower of the Four Winds in the Roman Agora of ancient Athens instead

Ooh, jammy sod.

I've seen the Oxford one (the old Radcliffe Observatory, in what is now Green College) but never been to Athens to see the original (and much else).

I really really recommend it. It was my first time too. It is in amazingly good nick (very well restored)

That part of Athens is so movingly historic it can make you feel a bit weepy. This gorgeous marble cradle

I went to Aristotle’s Lyceum as well. The ruins are fairly humdrum but you can walk the very same path where Aristotle walked, under the plane trees, discussing Plato and Socrates, with his pupils. Goodness me

I was one of about 6 people in the otherwise deserted and idyllic gardens

Oh, I hadn't seen that before posting my last. Exactly so. Not to mention that "the human is a political animal".

I know it is trendy to talk up the Persians but pah. I know exactly what side my heart is on.

The mountains look on Marathon—
And Marathon looks on the sea;
And musing there an hour alone,
I dream’d that Greece might still be free;
For standing on the Persians’ grave,
I could not deem myself a slave.

A king sate on the rocky brow
Which looks o’er sea-born Salamis;
And ships, by thousands, lay below,
And men in nations;—all were his!
He counted them at break of day—
And when the sun set, where were they?

Sea-born salamis - did they come from Italy?

A surprising proportion of Italy was Greek-settled, including the Naples area IIRC.

PS Southern Italy, or a good chunk oif it, was called Magna Graecia by the chaps in Rome.

There are some villages in Calabria (and perhaps also Puglia) that still speak Ancient Greek. I have been to one, and heard the Greek spoken “as Pythagoras would speak it”. My knowledge of the classics is not good enough to know if this is exactly true - yours sounds much better. Still very moving, even for a linguistic pleb like me

I also visited the region of Sybaris. Home off the Sybarites. It is not very sybaritic now. An impoverished, earthquake ruined, mafia infested toilet. Great food nearby, however, in the Mafia owned resorts

Is that true Leon? Proper Ancient Greek?

What's always baffled me is that Latin totally died out. The idea that there's still a good holding of the Greek language baffles me on the former idea more.

Bollox. Leon is as gullible as Melvyn Bragg, who didn’t realise that his Cumbrian pal was pulling his leg when he told him that he could understand Icelandic when stationed there during the war.

(The wartime story of Iceland is fascinating. They were invaded by the UK. Still smarts.)

Did the Americans not take part as well?

It was in 1940.

Have checked. The US did come in even while they were strictly neutral (ie before Pearl Harbor) but significantly later than the British and Canadians, so SD is quite correct. Edit: And you too, of course!