Why Tories, including the PM, have got to be careful with comments about the elderly – politicalbett

Pagan2 said:

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Pagan2 said:

The first rule of cryptography is that the moment more than one person has a key the key is potentially compromised

I think you're confused about the nature of public and private keys. Public keys can be given to multiple users and mean that that user can encrypt the file so that only someone with the private key can decrypt it. But they won't help with decryption whatsoever.

Not at all confused as I spent 5 years working with the system. The important key is the one on government servers. It encrypts the data sent out which creates the qr code , then when the qr code is scanned receives the data and decrypts it and checks it. The government keys will be on the darknet before you can say boo to a goose allowing people to create vaxports at will that will pass muster

Why would I need to decrypt the message, all I need to do is use the data available to verify that the contents match the signature.

You dont need to decrypt it. Government server sends you encrypted data which is used to build a qr code still the data is encrypted...you scan it, sent to government server that decrypts it to make sure its one they sent out and checks your status then sends back yes or no.....where in that did you decrypt anything?

Flatlander said:

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

Flatlander said:

Pagan2 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

MaxPB said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Dear me, do people really think that checking a vaccine certificate requires communicating with government servers? I suppose such spectacular ignorance is because the government has stupidly not explained anything or laid the groundwork, but it's very hard to correct such nonsensical beliefs once they get around.

You would need to have a secure chain API with a bring your own device front end to scan the QR code and get a response from the server saying it's legit. Otherwise why bother?

No, you just need it to be encrypted using absolutely bog-standard techniques.

It's identical to your computer checking a certificate. All you need to store in the smartphone or other device checking the QR code is a small number of public keys.

Sighs you have no clue do you, a public key will be leaked. Look how well it worked for dvds when the data was encrypted....clue it lasted days. Keys will be leaked or a weakness found in almost nothing flat.

How does my browser accept an SSL certificate as legit? Not via Digicert or whoever signed it.

Your browser decrypts it with a key. Those keys get leaked too

https://www.bankinfosecurity.com/private-keys-for-23000-digital-certificates-leaked-a-10689#:~:text=The emailing of the private,this a serious security issue.

Can I ask what cryptography has to do with the issue at hand - which is how can you verify that the record presented to you (within a QR barcode) is valid.

To do that the only options are external verification (to a central server, to which you can run zero trust authentication and complete logging) or local verification....

I'm not an expert in the precise mathematics of it but I imagined that your QR code would be a representation of your certificate signed by the government's private key, just as an SSL certificate is signed by a trusted* authority.

The check-in app only has to check the certificate trust tree to verify that it hasn't been tampered with. The certificate itself would contain details such as your name and your vax status.

*Yes, I know. Symantec etc etc.

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Pagan2 said:

The first rule of cryptography is that the moment more than one person has a key the key is potentially compromised

I think you're confused about the nature of public and private keys. Public keys can be given to multiple users and mean that that user can encrypt the file so that only someone with the private key can decrypt it. But they won't help with decryption whatsoever.

Not at all confused as I spent 5 years working with the system. The important key is the one on government servers. It encrypts the data sent out which creates the qr code , then when the qr code is scanned receives the data and decrypts it and checks it. The government keys will be on the darknet before you can say boo to a goose allowing people to create vaxports at will that will pass muster

Why would I need to decrypt the message, all I need to do is use the data available to verify that the contents match the signature.

You dont need to decrypt it. Government server sends you encrypted data which is used to build a qr code still the data is encrypted...you scan it, sent to government server that decrypts it to make sure its one they sent out and checks your status then sends back yes or no.....where in that did you decrypt anything?

So why did you talk about Decryption and cryptography then (especially as I'm now certain you haven't a clue about what you are talking about.

The options are:-

Locally - verify a signed dataset using a public key
Networked - talk to a Government server who confirms the record you are checking is valid.

Both have plus points and minus points and the reality is that you could easily offer both...

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

felix said:

Philip_Thompson said:

felix said:

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Pagan2 said:

mwadams said:

algarkirk said:

gealbhan said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Morning all. Sorry, only just read the @Cyclefree PT header on the stubborn Tory poll lead. It's a very good helicopter piece.

"If the choice is between the Tories and an empty space, the latter is unlikely to win."

The above line jumped out at me. You read it and reflexively nod and think "too right". It's one of those.

But then - if you're me - you dwell on it a while and wonder whether it is such a slam dunk. This government (and particularly this PM) are increasingly being viewed by anybody with eyes to see and ears to listen and noses to smell and mouths to - ok ok you get the picture - as an utter shambles. No principles. No competence. 'No' as in ZERO.

They've got away with it so far (pollwise) but for how long? Brexit is shedding its potency as iconic wedge issue. Slowly, to be sure, but it is. They can poke the fires of its culture war aspect but is this enough to stay at 40%? I doubt it. Tough times lie ahead with the economy and in Fiscal Corner. Leveling Up, for example, has to move from soundbite to hard policy choices and this will piss some people off. If it doesn't it's not real and remains a soundbite. Which would also start to piss some people off, just a different bunch, those Leavers who voted for this agenda, believing it to be genuine. Because these folk are not total blithering idiots - not in the main and not all the time. Whatever, poll damage is coming either way. Ditto with Social Care. There are no votes in that. Only negative ones if you get serious about it. Ask Andy Burnham or Theresa May. So the same choice there. A solid plan and loss of popularity or a cop out and loss of popularity.

Now we have this mismanaged exit from the pandemic. Plus (the header here) further damaging reveals from Cummings - who was right there in the middle of it - about the response and attitude throughout. The PM at key moments in thrall to bizarre right-wing 'contrarians' for heaven's sake, most of them no wiser than our PB one. His focus not on preventing Covid running amok in England and killing tens of thousands but on something far more important - impressing the Daily Telegraph and the Spectator.

I could go on. The challenge is to stop. But I can do that too. I'm going out maskless in a minute. Big moment. The point is, surely all of this shit is probably going to lead within a year to the Cons polling no better than mid 30s. And then come the GE, given things can only get worse, if the choice is indeed between more of the same or a nice cool empty space fronted by a non-scary, competent, decent sounding bloke who looks like he could run a whelk stall and could manage to tell the truth every now and again, well for me that's a toss up.

I take issue with 'poke the fires of its culture war aspect'. Blaming the right for the culture war is like blaming Poland for World War Two. The right isn't trying to move back to 1953, it just doesn't want to be dragged forward to year zero. All the movement on the culture war is from the left. The right isn't trying to rewrite history. The right is, occasionally, suggesting that perhaps the left might be going a bit too far.
Now you're astute, and you'll notice I'm saying 'the left' and not 'the Labour Party'. SKS is trying his hardest to avoid the loonier fringes of the culture war, though his party occasionally drag him into it. But to the electorate as a whole, that's not enough. Neil Kinnock was no culture warrior. But the culture warriors of the wider left - the ILEA, for example - lost him votes. How does SKS distance Labour from the likes of Zarah Sultana and Nadia Whittome?

EDIT - and have you read the Telegraph or the Spectator recently? If the PM has been trying to impress the Telegraph and the Spectator, he's going about it abysmally. What he's trying to do (and succeeding) is to impress the authoritarian lobby which want more laws on other people (like @gealbhan yesterday - although I wasn't sure how serious he was).

EDIT2: And good luck going maskless. Enjoy exchanging smiles with other demaskers!

As named, I’ll explain.

My point being the argument between authoritarian and libertarian is not a left right one, nor is it a case of one side being right, the other wrong. It’s a case of both should listen to the other and debate the other, to help get things right.

It shows up clearly in Covid politics, commentators in the Telegraph (Conservative in party politics, split between libertarian and authoritarian in Covid response) and the Daily Mail (Conservative till sixties, populist right since) also to a smaller degree split between authoritarian and libertarian, though tending toward libertarian in editorial.

In downing street yesterday, JVT Libertarian, open nite clubs, Vallance authoritarian, against doing it right now.

But with the success of vaccines, things have now moved on, old media and new media like this blog very slow to realise how things have moved. It’s never been, if not now then when, it was always going to be how, post vaccine.

It’s not about vaccines now, it’s about behaviours. The horse taken to water (jabbed) could say the easier equation than getting it to drink (behaviour) hence now proper debate required between authoritarian and libertarian to achieve those behaviours.

The government have already decided the road ahead and won’t u turn. My evidence? The main headline this lunchtime, government no intention to tackle pingdemic, they are determined to generate it, latest missive from Downing Street, if you are pinged then isolate.

So if you delete the app, ie show the wrong behaviour, the government won’t concede to you, they will coerce you into the behaviours in the end.

I don’t make this up, I’m just the messenger where for many the penny hasn’t dropped yet.

Marginally following this up, isn't one of Labour's problems that very few of the real choices we face are left v right. A number of left issues are over, and therefore discounted. The NHS, free education to 18, not being an imperial power, social housing, payments to those not in work, House of Lords reform, minimum wage, employment rights, high taxes on the rich, health and safety etc. The centre left has won all the battles, and the centre right occupies what would have been a centre/centre left position.

Covid, Brexit, China, Russia, Islamic extremism, free speech, debt and deficit, the state of the UK union - none of these have obvious left v right alternative solutions.

The game has changed. I think so far the Tories have been better at silently shifting. Labour members still seem to think that the very people who vote in Patel, Sunak, Kwarteng and Nadhim Zahawi are filthy racists because they don't think Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler and Zarah Sultana are outstanding politicians.

The next left/right debate is UBI (and the terms of that debate will, in part be set by the experience of furlough, and our economic path over the next 5 years or so).

I think the left is at *extreme* danger of being outflanked on this by the right, with a post-industrial market-economy argument being made (and won) for its introduction by a future Tory administration, while Labour sits it out, scared of frightening the middle-england horses.

There is no debate to be had, UBI which is enough to live on is unaffordable

UBI already exists in this country, we just don't call it that and we have an extremely high real marginal income tax on it.

A sensible UBI introduction would be to merge existing things together, sort out the tax rates so they're sensible, then call it UBI. Not introduce massive new benefits.

A bit like Osborne introducing a Living Wage, based upon the pre-existing Minimum Wage and not dramatically different.

UBI will not work until they sort out housing benefit, specifically in London and the south.

The current numbers require something like £1k a month for an adult, £500 for a child, and an income tax rate of 35% with no personal allowance. Then start making allowances for behavioural changes, all of which will be on the downside for the Chancellor.

Don't like it, don't get it - handouts for sitting at home make zero sense to me. I take the 'Judge Judy' approach to welfare!

The entire point of a UBI, as opposed to UC/JSA etc is that its not a handout for sitting at home.

What we have today is handouts encouraging people to stay at home.

I t further weakens the notion of self-help and nurse knows best. No thanks.

Actually it does the complete opposite.

UC/JSA weakens the notion of self-help because it pays people to not be working. Work and "you lose your benefits". If you fail to work, you're paid for that.

UBI reinforces the notion of self-help as you get the UBI whether you work or not. Fail to work, you're not given any extra money than those who do work, so you're the one who suffers.

You can only claim JSA now if able bodied if you have made enough NI contributions when in work, so JSA now encourages self-help.

UBI would be paid to anyone, whether a billionaire or multimillionaire in a mansion or someone out of work in a council house.

Are you sure you can't get any benefits without NI contributions? I don't think you're right.

That its paid to a millionaire or in a council house, is the entire point of universality. By paying it to everyone you get rid of the 'poverty trap' and ensure that its not worth anyone not working because if they don't work they only hurt themselves.

The millionaire getting the benefit should just see the benefit offset against the taxes they owe, no different to how the tax-free allowance always worked prior to it being written off for highest earners.

You can't get JSA now without NI contributions no, only UC.
https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/eligibility

I fail to see why the average taxpayer should fund a benefit to millionaires or why it should mean the millionaire then gets a tax cut instead.

Because you're not thinking straight.

By taxing away the benefits you're not affecting the millionaires marginal tax rate at all.

The people who have a high marginal tax rate and suffer from means testing are the poor not the rich.

The richest who are paying hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds a year in taxes getting a tiny amount back in 'universal benefits' is a rounding error for them, but its incredibly meaningful for the people not facing 75% marginal tax rates anymore.

UC means the poor and out of work are not facing 75% marginal tax rates anymore, as it only reduces their benefits gradually as their working hours increase and earnings up to £12,750 pay no income tax at all

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

If it is just on the users phones then its easily forgeable and therefore pointless. I just get a friend to take a screenshot of theirs. Same with a paper version

Come on @Pagan2, you're smarter than that. It's incredibly easy for everybody to have a "seed" and then for the barcode to change every 30 seconds.

But let's ignore that for a second.

The reality is that there are successful vaxport apps in New York, Israel and Denmark - and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. None of those systems seem to have any particular issues, as far as I can see.

That means that they are far impossible.

Now, a perfectly reasonably objection to this, is that it is the thin end of the wedge that leads to identity cards, tracking and the rest. And that's a perfectly reasonable objection.

But it's real world choices time here: is it less bad to allow those who *choose* vaccination to live a normal life again, and to allow the economy to fully reopen; or is it less bad to keep Covid as an ongoing issue to avoid the possibility that a future government uses them to introduce ID cards by the back door?

It is less bad to keep covid frankly, if I wanted governement tracking I would emigrate to China. My statements about crytography is debunking the "There cant be fakes" view of some. Will fakes be the majority hell no but they will be available

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-vaccine-passports-idUSL8N2M05AB

"There's absolutely no point in arresting Jeffrey Epstein for being a rapist, if there are going to be other rapists wandering around" - @Pagan2, 2021.

Where did I say people found with fake ones wouldn't be arrested? You forget here energy. I can get a fake vaxport with a couple of clicks....I can vaccines by travelling somewhere taking up my time twice a few weeks apart. Let us remember bothering to walk a few minutes to a polling booth is to much for some people

Your point was that because some people would be using fake ones, there would be no utility to them. I.e., it suggests that you need 100% uptake for them to work.

That's exactly the same as saying that because we can't catch all rapists, there's no point in catching 99% of them.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

rcs1000 said:

ping said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=https://www.ft.com/content/505fe8c4-ef70-4ab0-a978-321c9199af4a

COVID started in Italy?

Maybe…

It is entirely possible that an early version of Covid, maybe one with an R of 1.1, circulated for some time. And then, as with the Delta variant, a small mutation caused a dramatic increase in R, and it took off.

I suspect if we were on chinapoliticalbetting.com, then @Shīzi* would be ranting eloquently about how this was proof that the West had invented Covid and smuggled it into China to fuck them over, and that it was practically an act of war.

* Leon in Chinese

PB without @Leon is like eating pizza without the pineapple!

rcs1000 said:

@Pagan2 - why is it that none of your nightmare scenarios for vaxports (botnet takedown, massive fraud, etc) seem to have actually happened in any of the other places where they've been tried?

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

rcs1000 said:

Pagan2 said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

If it is just on the users phones then its easily forgeable and therefore pointless. I just get a friend to take a screenshot of theirs. Same with a paper version

Come on @Pagan2, you're smarter than that. It's incredibly easy for everybody to have a "seed" and then for the barcode to change every 30 seconds.

But let's ignore that for a second.

The reality is that there are successful vaxport apps in New York, Israel and Denmark - and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. None of those systems seem to have any particular issues, as far as I can see.

That means that they are far impossible.

Now, a perfectly reasonably objection to this, is that it is the thin end of the wedge that leads to identity cards, tracking and the rest. And that's a perfectly reasonable objection.

But it's real world choices time here: is it less bad to allow those who *choose* vaccination to live a normal life again, and to allow the economy to fully reopen; or is it less bad to keep Covid as an ongoing issue to avoid the possibility that a future government uses them to introduce ID cards by the back door?

It is less bad to keep covid frankly, if I wanted governement tracking I would emigrate to China. My statements about crytography is debunking the "There cant be fakes" view of some. Will fakes be the majority hell no but they will be available

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-vaccine-passports-idUSL8N2M05AB

"There's absolutely no point in arresting Jeffrey Epstein for being a rapist, if there are going to be other rapists wandering around" - @Pagan2, 2021.

Where did I say people found with fake ones wouldn't be arrested? You forget here energy. I can get a fake vaxport with a couple of clicks....I can vaccines by travelling somewhere taking up my time twice a few weeks apart. Let us remember bothering to walk a few minutes to a polling booth is to much for some people

Your point was that because some people would be using fake ones, there would be no utility to them. I.e., it suggests that you need 100% uptake for them to work.

That's exactly the same as saying that because we can't catch all rapists, there's no point in catching 99% of them.

You need a certain percentage to make them more than theatre yes. I don't think you would disagree that if 90% were using fake ones the sytem is worthless. We are arguing about at what percentage the system becomes little more than theatre

Foxy said:

Northern_Al said:

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

There are some idiots around, aren't there? Get vaccinated, save yourself £500.

And a fine and criminal record.

RobD said:

Pagan2 said:

@rcs1000 here is another
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-reportedly-attempt-to-obtain-easily-forged-vaccinated-certificate/

So a vanishingly small fraction of the population?

Pagan2 said:

RobD said:

Pagan2 said:

@rcs1000 here is another
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-reportedly-attempt-to-obtain-easily-forged-vaccinated-certificate/

So a vanishingly small fraction of the population?

RCS said 0.1%
quote from that article
A black market for counterfeit vaccination certificates is already thriving on Telegram, where more than 100,000 users have joined groups that offer the forgeries at a price, Channel 12 reported.
That is already over 1% and only telegram users. So already over 10 times his estimate

MaxPB said:

Ultimately, I think vaccine passports won't get implemented in September. Instead the government will say 51m have done their first doses and 49m both so what's the point.

FrancisUrquhart said:

46,558 Daily number of people tested positive reported on 20 July 2021
96 deaths

SandyRentool said:

Looks like we are back to "Murder Tuesday". At least we are past the peak of cases...

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

Pagan2 said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

Will bring back the illegal rave scene. A good thing in my opinion our offspring are far too ready to bow to authority

JosiasJessop said:

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Sandpit said:

At least today’s billionaires are interested in improving the state of technology. Awesome to watch.

The thing is Branson's technology is a dead-end. At least New Shepard is being built by a rocket company that is also building a humongous rocket (and New Glenn will be humongous; it's just that SH/SS resets the terms.)

BTW, I hate the name 'Starship'. Starship has a definition that has been used for well over 100 years: a vessel that can be used for interstellar travel. SS never will. It's another Muskian over-promise.

Excuse my ignorance, but is it a complete dead end? Could it not be fitted with more fuel, and get ever higher? Is there a limit that its design pushes against?

IANAE, but Branson's SpaceShip III is based on SSII, which in itself is based on SpaceShip, which won the XPrize back in 2003/4.

Pagan2 said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

Will bring back the illegal rave scene. A good thing in my opinion our offspring are far too ready to bow to authority

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Northern_Al said:

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

There are some idiots around, aren't there? Get vaccinated, save yourself £500.

And a fine and criminal record.

You're a LibDem you say?

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

Pagan2 said:

RobD said:

Pagan2 said:

@rcs1000 here is another
https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-reportedly-attempt-to-obtain-easily-forged-vaccinated-certificate/

So a vanishingly small fraction of the population?

RCS said 0.1%
quote from that article
A black market for counterfeit vaccination certificates is already thriving on Telegram, where more than 100,000 users have joined groups that offer the forgeries at a price, Channel 12 reported.
That is already over 1% and only telegram users. So already over 10 times his estimate

CarlottaVance said:

Yes, but now hundreds of trans activists have threatened to beat, rape, assassinate and bomb me I’ve realised that this movement poses no risk to women whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1417067152956399619?s=20

SandyRentool said:

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

Who would want a certificate to confirm that they have received a fake vaccine?

Pagan2 said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

Will bring back the illegal rave scene. A good thing in my opinion our offspring are far too ready to bow to authority

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

felix said:

Philip_Thompson said:

felix said:

Sandpit said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Pagan2 said:

mwadams said:

algarkirk said:

gealbhan said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

Morning all. Sorry, only just read the @Cyclefree PT header on the stubborn Tory poll lead. It's a very good helicopter piece.

"If the choice is between the Tories and an empty space, the latter is unlikely to win."

The above line jumped out at me. You read it and reflexively nod and think "too right". It's one of those.

But then - if you're me - you dwell on it a while and wonder whether it is such a slam dunk. This government (and particularly this PM) are increasingly being viewed by anybody with eyes to see and ears to listen and noses to smell and mouths to - ok ok you get the picture - as an utter shambles. No principles. No competence. 'No' as in ZERO.

They've got away with it so far (pollwise) but for how long? Brexit is shedding its potency as iconic wedge issue. Slowly, to be sure, but it is. They can poke the fires of its culture war aspect but is this enough to stay at 40%? I doubt it. Tough times lie ahead with the economy and in Fiscal Corner. Leveling Up, for example, has to move from soundbite to hard policy choices and this will piss some people off. If it doesn't it's not real and remains a soundbite. Which would also start to piss some people off, just a different bunch, those Leavers who voted for this agenda, believing it to be genuine. Because these folk are not total blithering idiots - not in the main and not all the time. Whatever, poll damage is coming either way. Ditto with Social Care. There are no votes in that. Only negative ones if you get serious about it. Ask Andy Burnham or Theresa May. So the same choice there. A solid plan and loss of popularity or a cop out and loss of popularity.

Now we have this mismanaged exit from the pandemic. Plus (the header here) further damaging reveals from Cummings - who was right there in the middle of it - about the response and attitude throughout. The PM at key moments in thrall to bizarre right-wing 'contrarians' for heaven's sake, most of them no wiser than our PB one. His focus not on preventing Covid running amok in England and killing tens of thousands but on something far more important - impressing the Daily Telegraph and the Spectator.

I could go on. The challenge is to stop. But I can do that too. I'm going out maskless in a minute. Big moment. The point is, surely all of this shit is probably going to lead within a year to the Cons polling no better than mid 30s. And then come the GE, given things can only get worse, if the choice is indeed between more of the same or a nice cool empty space fronted by a non-scary, competent, decent sounding bloke who looks like he could run a whelk stall and could manage to tell the truth every now and again, well for me that's a toss up.

I take issue with 'poke the fires of its culture war aspect'. Blaming the right for the culture war is like blaming Poland for World War Two. The right isn't trying to move back to 1953, it just doesn't want to be dragged forward to year zero. All the movement on the culture war is from the left. The right isn't trying to rewrite history. The right is, occasionally, suggesting that perhaps the left might be going a bit too far.
Now you're astute, and you'll notice I'm saying 'the left' and not 'the Labour Party'. SKS is trying his hardest to avoid the loonier fringes of the culture war, though his party occasionally drag him into it. But to the electorate as a whole, that's not enough. Neil Kinnock was no culture warrior. But the culture warriors of the wider left - the ILEA, for example - lost him votes. How does SKS distance Labour from the likes of Zarah Sultana and Nadia Whittome?

EDIT - and have you read the Telegraph or the Spectator recently? If the PM has been trying to impress the Telegraph and the Spectator, he's going about it abysmally. What he's trying to do (and succeeding) is to impress the authoritarian lobby which want more laws on other people (like @gealbhan yesterday - although I wasn't sure how serious he was).

EDIT2: And good luck going maskless. Enjoy exchanging smiles with other demaskers!

As named, I’ll explain.

My point being the argument between authoritarian and libertarian is not a left right one, nor is it a case of one side being right, the other wrong. It’s a case of both should listen to the other and debate the other, to help get things right.

It shows up clearly in Covid politics, commentators in the Telegraph (Conservative in party politics, split between libertarian and authoritarian in Covid response) and the Daily Mail (Conservative till sixties, populist right since) also to a smaller degree split between authoritarian and libertarian, though tending toward libertarian in editorial.

In downing street yesterday, JVT Libertarian, open nite clubs, Vallance authoritarian, against doing it right now.

But with the success of vaccines, things have now moved on, old media and new media like this blog very slow to realise how things have moved. It’s never been, if not now then when, it was always going to be how, post vaccine.

It’s not about vaccines now, it’s about behaviours. The horse taken to water (jabbed) could say the easier equation than getting it to drink (behaviour) hence now proper debate required between authoritarian and libertarian to achieve those behaviours.

The government have already decided the road ahead and won’t u turn. My evidence? The main headline this lunchtime, government no intention to tackle pingdemic, they are determined to generate it, latest missive from Downing Street, if you are pinged then isolate.

So if you delete the app, ie show the wrong behaviour, the government won’t concede to you, they will coerce you into the behaviours in the end.

I don’t make this up, I’m just the messenger where for many the penny hasn’t dropped yet.

Marginally following this up, isn't one of Labour's problems that very few of the real choices we face are left v right. A number of left issues are over, and therefore discounted. The NHS, free education to 18, not being an imperial power, social housing, payments to those not in work, House of Lords reform, minimum wage, employment rights, high taxes on the rich, health and safety etc. The centre left has won all the battles, and the centre right occupies what would have been a centre/centre left position.

Covid, Brexit, China, Russia, Islamic extremism, free speech, debt and deficit, the state of the UK union - none of these have obvious left v right alternative solutions.

The game has changed. I think so far the Tories have been better at silently shifting. Labour members still seem to think that the very people who vote in Patel, Sunak, Kwarteng and Nadhim Zahawi are filthy racists because they don't think Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler and Zarah Sultana are outstanding politicians.

The next left/right debate is UBI (and the terms of that debate will, in part be set by the experience of furlough, and our economic path over the next 5 years or so).

I think the left is at *extreme* danger of being outflanked on this by the right, with a post-industrial market-economy argument being made (and won) for its introduction by a future Tory administration, while Labour sits it out, scared of frightening the middle-england horses.

There is no debate to be had, UBI which is enough to live on is unaffordable

UBI already exists in this country, we just don't call it that and we have an extremely high real marginal income tax on it.

A sensible UBI introduction would be to merge existing things together, sort out the tax rates so they're sensible, then call it UBI. Not introduce massive new benefits.

A bit like Osborne introducing a Living Wage, based upon the pre-existing Minimum Wage and not dramatically different.

UBI will not work until they sort out housing benefit, specifically in London and the south.

The current numbers require something like £1k a month for an adult, £500 for a child, and an income tax rate of 35% with no personal allowance. Then start making allowances for behavioural changes, all of which will be on the downside for the Chancellor.

Don't like it, don't get it - handouts for sitting at home make zero sense to me. I take the 'Judge Judy' approach to welfare!

The entire point of a UBI, as opposed to UC/JSA etc is that its not a handout for sitting at home.

What we have today is handouts encouraging people to stay at home.

I t further weakens the notion of self-help and nurse knows best. No thanks.

Actually it does the complete opposite.

UC/JSA weakens the notion of self-help because it pays people to not be working. Work and "you lose your benefits". If you fail to work, you're paid for that.

UBI reinforces the notion of self-help as you get the UBI whether you work or not. Fail to work, you're not given any extra money than those who do work, so you're the one who suffers.

You can only claim JSA now if able bodied if you have made enough NI contributions when in work, so JSA now encourages self-help.

UBI would be paid to anyone, whether a billionaire or multimillionaire in a mansion or someone out of work in a council house.

Are you sure you can't get any benefits without NI contributions? I don't think you're right.

That its paid to a millionaire or in a council house, is the entire point of universality. By paying it to everyone you get rid of the 'poverty trap' and ensure that its not worth anyone not working because if they don't work they only hurt themselves.

The millionaire getting the benefit should just see the benefit offset against the taxes they owe, no different to how the tax-free allowance always worked prior to it being written off for highest earners.

You can't get JSA now without NI contributions no, only UC.
https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/eligibility

I fail to see why the average taxpayer should fund a benefit to millionaires or why it should mean the millionaire then gets a tax cut instead.

Because you're not thinking straight.

By taxing away the benefits you're not affecting the millionaires marginal tax rate at all.

The people who have a high marginal tax rate and suffer from means testing are the poor not the rich.

The richest who are paying hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds a year in taxes getting a tiny amount back in 'universal benefits' is a rounding error for them, but its incredibly meaningful for the people not facing 75% marginal tax rates anymore.

UC means the poor and out of work are not facing 75% marginal tax rates anymore, as it only reduces their benefits gradually as their working hours increase and earnings up to £12,750 pay no income tax at all

If you are 23 or older working minimum wage then you hit the earnings threshold at 27.5 hours per week. Only working six hours a day, with a half hour lunch break, takes you to £12,750.

If you are working 30 hours a week at £8.91 minimum wage and getting UC then what is your marginal tax rate?

Taking into account Income Tax, National Insurance and UC Taper what marginal tax rate are you facing if you get a job offer for 40 hours a week instead of 30 hours per week?

williamglenn said:

JosiasJessop said:

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Sandpit said:

At least today’s billionaires are interested in improving the state of technology. Awesome to watch.

The thing is Branson's technology is a dead-end. At least New Shepard is being built by a rocket company that is also building a humongous rocket (and New Glenn will be humongous; it's just that SH/SS resets the terms.)

BTW, I hate the name 'Starship'. Starship has a definition that has been used for well over 100 years: a vessel that can be used for interstellar travel. SS never will. It's another Muskian over-promise.

Excuse my ignorance, but is it a complete dead end? Could it not be fitted with more fuel, and get ever higher? Is there a limit that its design pushes against?

IANAE, but Branson's SpaceShip III is based on SSII, which in itself is based on SpaceShip, which won the XPrize back in 2003/4.

I am not an extra-terrestrial?

Pagan2 said:

SandyRentool said:

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

Who would want a certificate to confirm that they have received a fake vaccine?

I have one to say I have taken ivomectin nods and now not only did it cure my covid it also reduced my weight to a svelte 11 stone and made me irresistably attractive to younger ladies

Leon said:

Greetings PB-ers

I AM SORRY FOR THAT NASTY REMARK ABOUT THE GERMANS DROWNING

It was - genuinely - a joke, but I understand some did not take it that way, and I apologise to anyone I offended

For the sake of clarity, I have also removed my DVD of "Dambusters", smashed it into tiny pieces with a clawhammer, put the grainy remnants in a bin, and had the bin legally incinerated.

I then gathered the ashes of the incinerated bin containing tiny remnants of the smashed up DVD of "Dambusters", and I poured them all into a sealed leaden urn which was then airlifted to Switzerland and swiftly taken underground where it was torn into fundamental particles in the super-collider at CERN, which means the final atoms are now probably rolling into the Rhine. Ironically.

Anabobazina said:

SandyRentool said:

Looks like we are back to "Murder Tuesday". At least we are past the peak of cases...

How can you say that for sure? Far to early to call the peak IMO.

eek said:

Leon said:

Greetings PB-ers

I AM SORRY FOR THAT NASTY REMARK ABOUT THE GERMANS DROWNING

It was - genuinely - a joke, but I understand some did not take it that way, and I apologise to anyone I offended

For the sake of clarity, I have also removed my DVD of "Dambusters", smashed it into tiny pieces with a clawhammer, put the grainy remnants in a bin, and had the bin legally incinerated.

I then gathered the ashes of the incinerated bin containing tiny remnants of the smashed up DVD of "Dambusters", and I poured them all into a sealed leaden urn which was then airlifted to Switzerland and swiftly taken underground where it was torn into fundamental particles in the super-collider at CERN, which means the final atoms are now probably rolling into the Rhine. Ironically.

And we were so looking forward to seeing what the trade of your next reincarnation would be?

RochdalePioneers said:

Cookie said:

RochdalePioneers said:

bigjohnowls said:

RochdalePioneers said:

bigjohnowls said:

Bywire News™
@bywirenews
·
1h
NEW: Keir Starmer has almost bankrupted the Labour Party.

The party’s financial reserves are down to just one months’ payroll - with senior staff blaming a huge swathe of lost members and legal fees.

Labour were the richest party in Britain under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

So with a reduction in subs from fly by night Trots who have scabbed off, and a reduction in union subs from Red Len, Starmer needs to go after private sector benefactors. No problem.

He has being trying to make good the shortfall from wealthy individuals ever since he became leader.

Unsurprisingly he has failed as he inspires nobody but a few anti Corbyn cranks

I am sure the staff losing their jobs will be extremely impressed by the success of your plan.

He needs the donations to keep the staff. Should have done it earlier of course.

Your argument is well made though. Without Corbyn the party is bankrupt. Which is why there should be an amicable divorce - let Labour Against the Witchhunt and Corbyn and the anti-semites and Chris Williamson stay, and have Starmer and the members and the voters leave.

The negative is that you'll lose the handful of trot MPs like Sultana who stay with you. The positive is that you'll have a large pot of money to defend the party against the endless legal cases. Well, until its all spent of course.

Oh how I wish that would happen. A Labour party shorn of the likes of Williamson and Corbyn and Sultana and all the people who support them would be one I could support. It could certainly recapture the centre ground from the Tories. At the expense of losing the far left, of course, but I think the prize would be worth it.

I don't wish to be rude, Rochdale, but have you had some good news or something today? The tone of your posts is a bit different and more like the Rochdale of Teesside days. Apologies if I am reading too much into things.

I'm the same me as always

CarlottaVance said:

Yes, but now hundreds of trans activists have threatened to beat, rape, assassinate and bomb me I’ve realised that this movement poses no risk to women whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1417067152956399619?s=20

Leon said:

Greetings PB-ers

I AM SORRY FOR THAT NASTY REMARK ABOUT THE GERMANS DROWNING

It was - genuinely - a joke, but I understand some did not take it that way, and I apologise to anyone I offended

For the sake of clarity, I have also removed my DVD of "Dambusters", smashed it into tiny pieces with a clawhammer, put the grainy remnants in a bin, and had the bin legally incinerated.

I then gathered the ashes of the incinerated bin containing tiny remnants of the smashed up DVD of "Dambusters", and I poured them all into a sealed leaden urn which was then airlifted to Switzerland and swiftly taken underground where it was torn into fundamental particles in the super-collider at CERN, which means the final atoms are now probably rolling into the Rhine. Ironically.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

I'm against vaxports on principle.

But in practice, they absolutely do work to encourage people to get jabbed.

If you just want to be practical as opposed to theoretical there's absolutely no reason for consistency and weddings, funerals etc to be the same rules as nightclubs. If a third of the young are refusing the vaccine and almost all of them end up going for it as its needed for clubs and travel then the system has worked as intended, even if its inconsistent.

Its like the Swiss Cheese model for risk assessment. In practice it works, even if in principle its a mess.

This is increasingly my view. We need to encourage high vaccine take-up, because given the infectiousness of Delta, getting 90+% of adults, plus essentially all teenagers, vaccinated is required for us to get over this thing.

Younger people are far more likely to engage in less socially distanced activities (like pubs, clubs etc.). They are therefore the group that it is most important to get jabbed.

But the data is that these groups are not getting jabbed at a rapid pace. It is therefore in the interests of all that we encourage vaccine take-up by making participation in certain events dependent on presentation of a Vaxport.

This is a public health issue. We have no problems in requiring restaurants not to spread salmonella, it doesn't seem unreasonable that we put in measures to stop people spreading Covid.

rottenborough said:

Leon said:

Greetings PB-ers

I AM SORRY FOR THAT NASTY REMARK ABOUT THE GERMANS DROWNING

It was - genuinely - a joke, but I understand some did not take it that way, and I apologise to anyone I offended

For the sake of clarity, I have also removed my DVD of "Dambusters", smashed it into tiny pieces with a clawhammer, put the grainy remnants in a bin, and had the bin legally incinerated.

I then gathered the ashes of the incinerated bin containing tiny remnants of the smashed up DVD of "Dambusters", and I poured them all into a sealed leaden urn which was then airlifted to Switzerland and swiftly taken underground where it was torn into fundamental particles in the super-collider at CERN, which means the final atoms are now probably rolling into the Rhine. Ironically.

An apology. Excellent. If only our senior politicians could learn this skill.

Anabobazina said:

Given the fact that the government has – as we understand – almost entirely failed to enforce the isolation rule, what on earth makes any think it can enforce the clubbing rule?

That is not to say people won't use the vaxpasses, I'm sure they will, but whether contravention is enforceable is a very different question.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

I'm against vaxports on principle.

But in practice, they absolutely do work to encourage people to get jabbed.

If you just want to be practical as opposed to theoretical there's absolutely no reason for consistency and weddings, funerals etc to be the same rules as nightclubs. If a third of the young are refusing the vaccine and almost all of them end up going for it as its needed for clubs and travel then the system has worked as intended, even if its inconsistent.

Its like the Swiss Cheese model for risk assessment. In practice it works, even if in principle its a mess.

This is increasingly my view. We need to encourage high vaccine take-up, because given the infectiousness of Delta, getting 90+% of adults, plus essentially all teenagers, vaccinated is required for us to get over this thing.

Younger people are far more likely to engage in less socially distanced activities (like pubs, clubs etc.). They are therefore the group that it is most important to get jabbed.

But the data is that these groups are not getting jabbed at a rapid pace. It is therefore in the interests of all that we encourage vaccine take-up by making participation in certain events dependent on presentation of a Vaxport.

This is a public health issue. We have no problems in requiring restaurants not to spread salmonella, it doesn't seem unreasonable that we put in measures to stop people spreading Covid.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Vaccine passports for nightclubs are to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, right?

But we are not restricting access at weddings, funerals (and associated wakes), football matches, indoor ice hockey matches, pubs, choirs, churches, concerts (both Debussy and UK Subs), and so on.

And people want to fine and criminalise those people going to nightclubs without the appropriate papers.

Seems sensible to me.

I'm against vaxports on principle.

But in practice, they absolutely do work to encourage people to get jabbed.

If you just want to be practical as opposed to theoretical there's absolutely no reason for consistency and weddings, funerals etc to be the same rules as nightclubs. If a third of the young are refusing the vaccine and almost all of them end up going for it as its needed for clubs and travel then the system has worked as intended, even if its inconsistent.

Its like the Swiss Cheese model for risk assessment. In practice it works, even if in principle its a mess.

This is increasingly my view. We need to encourage high vaccine take-up, because given the infectiousness of Delta, getting 90+% of adults, plus essentially all teenagers, vaccinated is required for us to get over this thing.

Younger people are far more likely to engage in less socially distanced activities (like pubs, clubs etc.). They are therefore the group that it is most important to get jabbed.

But the data is that these groups are not getting jabbed at a rapid pace. It is therefore in the interests of all that we encourage vaccine take-up by making participation in certain events dependent on presentation of a Vaxport.

This is a public health issue. We have no problems in requiring restaurants not to spread salmonella, it doesn't seem unreasonable that we put in measures to stop people spreading Covid.

Yes I get that, all with the best possible intentions. Getting the young jabbed. But look at the vehicle (restricting people's freedom) and we all know where a road paved with best intentions leads.

Why not give every 18-25yr old who is double jabbed £100?

As it costs too much on top of furlough as well

malcolmg said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Cookie said:

RochdalePioneers said:

bigjohnowls said:

RochdalePioneers said:

bigjohnowls said:

Bywire News™
@bywirenews
·
1h
NEW: Keir Starmer has almost bankrupted the Labour Party.

The party’s financial reserves are down to just one months’ payroll - with senior staff blaming a huge swathe of lost members and legal fees.

Labour were the richest party in Britain under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

So with a reduction in subs from fly by night Trots who have scabbed off, and a reduction in union subs from Red Len, Starmer needs to go after private sector benefactors. No problem.

He has being trying to make good the shortfall from wealthy individuals ever since he became leader.

Unsurprisingly he has failed as he inspires nobody but a few anti Corbyn cranks

I am sure the staff losing their jobs will be extremely impressed by the success of your plan.

He needs the donations to keep the staff. Should have done it earlier of course.

Your argument is well made though. Without Corbyn the party is bankrupt. Which is why there should be an amicable divorce - let Labour Against the Witchhunt and Corbyn and the anti-semites and Chris Williamson stay, and have Starmer and the members and the voters leave.

The negative is that you'll lose the handful of trot MPs like Sultana who stay with you. The positive is that you'll have a large pot of money to defend the party against the endless legal cases. Well, until its all spent of course.

Oh how I wish that would happen. A Labour party shorn of the likes of Williamson and Corbyn and Sultana and all the people who support them would be one I could support. It could certainly recapture the centre ground from the Tories. At the expense of losing the far left, of course, but I think the prize would be worth it.

I don't wish to be rude, Rochdale, but have you had some good news or something today? The tone of your posts is a bit different and more like the Rochdale of Teesside days. Apologies if I am reading too much into things.

I'm the same me as always

@Cookie
He is living in God's country, how could he not be happy

Pagan2 said:

SandyRentool said:

moonshine said:

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

Pagan2 said:

Pulpstar said:

Pagan2 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. kinabalu, it's pissing off a lot of people.

I hope you're right.

It will piss even more off if they try to implement it....imagine long queues building up outside pubs. restaurants, nightclubs,gigs ...."Sorry cant let you in because cant verify your status as the servers are down"

Very forseeable so the gov't will of course ensure the server capacity is increased prior to it being a condition

You can't increase the capacity that much, botnets are cheap to hire and IoT has provide many more millions of devices to run them on. Plus when did you last see a competent government it operation

The vaccine passport is on the users phone. No need for the nightclub to have computer access, just a doorman who knows what to look for. Same when you fly etc*. So no government IT to bring down.

*One of our nurses was in Spain a couple of weeks back. No one checked either way.

No way will Mr Bill Jones' screenshotted double vaccine confirmation ever be used. A million times.

I can advise that fake vaccine certification is already changing hands for £500 a pop.

Who would want a certificate to confirm that they have received a fake vaccine?

I have one to say I have taken ivomectin nods and now not only did it cure my covid it also reduced my weight to a svelte 11 stone and made me irresistably attractive to younger ladies

TOPPING said:

Pulpstar said:

Anabobazina said:

Given the fact that the government has – as we understand – almost entirely failed to enforce the isolation rule, what on earth makes any think it can enforce the clubbing rule?

That is not to say people won't use the vaxpasses, I'm sure they will, but whether contravention is enforceable is a very different question.

You have doormen on clubs. They love a bit of authoritarianism.

I have been a doorman on a club and I'm sorry to say that is absolutely true. But only to the bellends.

Pulpstar said:

Anabobazina said:

Given the fact that the government has – as we understand – almost entirely failed to enforce the isolation rule, what on earth makes any think it can enforce the clubbing rule?

That is not to say people won't use the vaxpasses, I'm sure they will, but whether contravention is enforceable is a very different question.

You have doormen on clubs. They love a bit of authoritarianism.