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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,212
    Patrick said:

    MrJones said:


    Build more houses, problem solved (and construction jobs in a productive non-service industry).

    I live in the north in one of the fastest growing towns in the country and there are new estates being developed allowing me to buy my first home and get onto the property ladder by buying a new-build house.

    "Build more houses"

    With a declining per capita GDP building houses people can no longer afford isn't a solution.

    Only 8% of the land of the UK is developed. We're still a very green country.

    Housing is unaffordable because it is so difficult and expensive to build new houses. This is entirely a factor of the planning laws. The significant majority of the value of a house is the planning permission not the materials. We can house people, and affordably so, if we make planning hassle go away. A profound liberalisation would trigger an immediate explosion in house building - but would of course also collapse house prices. The blocker is the nimbyist block of existing house and land owners.

    If Miliband is serious about breaking privilege and helping generation rent he could abolish planning permission. Your land - do with it what you will. But as we all know this would be a brave electoral move (in the Sir Humphrey sense).
    Planning permission is an interesting example of a left wing measure that has become very popular with right wing voters.

    Prior to Attlee's government, there were planning and building controls in some big urban areas, but by and large, people could build as they pleased on their own land. There's a bit in Screwtape Proposes a Toast where Screwtape (speaking here for CS Lewis) is scornful of the whole idea that the State should prohibit someone from doing as they please with their own property.

    But, abolishing planning permission just isn't in the realm of practical politics.



  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    I honestly think that is a good move from Ed... It reads well, although I do feel awkward watching him... But I think that's because deep down I want him to do well and always feel nervous that people will mess up on live tv

    I wanted him to stick with the blue labour policies he looked like he was going to use at the start if his leadership and there is def a bit of old loyalty in preferring him to DC... Unfortunately I rumbled that it's me projecting what I want labour to be rather than what they are, hence moving to ukip
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,426
    Pulpstar said:

    Ed Miliband is the only leader I could imagine being in my World of Warcraft guild to be perfectly honest.

    Ed is the only leader I could imagine painting his own Warhammer figures....

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Ed Miliband, the electorate's pity f&ck

    POTY

    That said, a win's a win.
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    edited July 2014
    I can't believe Labour strategists somehow thought it was a good idea to draw attention back to the 'weirdo'. They are bloody bonkers. Is there a Tory mole in there? Seriously?

    Guido amusing: http://order-order.com/2014/07/25/miliband-dont-vote-for-me/
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Patrick said:

    MrJones said:


    Build more houses, problem solved (and construction jobs in a productive non-service industry).

    I live in the north in one of the fastest growing towns in the country and there are new estates being developed allowing me to buy my first home and get onto the property ladder by buying a new-build house.

    "Build more houses"

    With a declining per capita GDP building houses people can no longer afford isn't a solution.

    Only 8% of the land of the UK is developed. We're still a very green country.

    Housing is unaffordable because it is so difficult and expensive to build new houses. This is entirely a factor of the planning laws. The significant majority of the value of a house is the planning permission not the materials. We can house people, and affordably so, if we make planning hassle go away. A profound liberalisation would trigger an immediate explosion in house building - but would of course also collapse house prices. The blocker is the nimbyist block of existing house and land owners.

    If Miliband is serious about breaking privilege and helping generation rent he could abolish planning permission. Your land - do with it what you will. But as we all know this would be a brave electoral move (in the Sir Humphrey sense).
    When people talk about building more housing,they always forget the infrastructure like more schools,roads,hospitals,clinics,more dams and so on would be needed if the population increases in those area's.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    isam said:

    I honestly think that is a good move from Ed... It reads well, although I do feel awkward watching him... But I think that's because deep down I want him to do well and always feel nervous that people will mess up on live tv

    I wanted him to stick with the blue labour policies he looked like he was going to use at the start if his leadership and there is def a bit of old loyalty in preferring him to DC... Unfortunately I rumbled that it's me projecting what I want labour to be rather than what they are, hence moving to ukip
    It would be a good move if he combined it with this amorphous guff he claims to stand for, and elucidates what it is. Thus far we only know he's weird, has stuffed energy prices and his party want to tax hard working middle class people more to pay for layabouts. The fact he isn't on 10% or less is an indictment of how pervasive the begging bowl culture has got,
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @carrieapples: On Monday, @Ed_Miliband missed the PM's statement on Ukraine to get a pic with Obama. Today he hates photo ops. You couldn't make it up.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Ed Miliband "I'm shit, and I know I am....."

    "If you want a guy who can eat a bacon sandwich or fix the economy I helped feck over, then vote for the other guy..."
    He maybe sh!t,but he's still leading in the polls and the way things are looking,our next PM.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Labour photo ops: Good
    Tory photo ops: Baaaaad

    Labour:idiots...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Patrick said:

    MrJones said:


    Build more houses, problem solved (and construction jobs in a productive non-service industry).

    I live in the north in one of the fastest growing towns in the country and there are new estates being developed allowing me to buy my first home and get onto the property ladder by buying a new-build house.

    "Build more houses"

    With a declining per capita GDP building houses people can no longer afford isn't a solution.

    Only 8% of the land of the UK is developed. We're still a very green country.

    Housing is unaffordable because it is so difficult and expensive to build new houses. This is entirely a factor of the planning laws. The significant majority of the value of a house is the planning permission not the materials. We can house people, and affordably so, if we make planning hassle go away. A profound liberalisation would trigger an immediate explosion in house building - but would of course also collapse house prices. The blocker is the nimbyist block of existing house and land owners.

    If Miliband is serious about breaking privilege and helping generation rent he could abolish planning permission. Your land - do with it what you will. But as we all know this would be a brave electoral move (in the Sir Humphrey sense).
    Does that mean people could delve into their land to produce natural gas or oil without restriction? Or perhaps stick-up massive tower blocks where ever they liked regardless of the rights of adjoining landowners? What about the effect of development on water, sewerage, road capacity, school places, medical services, public transport? Planning permission is a about bit more than NIMBYs.

    Come to West Sussex, look at the number of houses being built - building sites throwing up the slums of tomorrow are everywhere. We are not even talking about new estates there is a whole new town going up on the edge of Horsham (no new hospitals, no expansion of the ambulance service, no new roads, no new railways, of course). Then come back and tell us how difficult it is to get permission to build new houses.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:


    - immigration *restricted* to people above the cost/benefit break even line

    I love the idea that the government can figure out which people will be above the cost/benefit line.

    I run a small tech startup in Japan. Right now, Japan loves small tech startups. They're coming up with all kinds of ideas that are supposed to attract us to Japan, some of which the taxpayer will actually spend money on. But each career step I've taken to be able to do this - teaching to software engineering (didn't have an engineering degree), setting up in business (company directors are supposed "investors", but you need to put in more money than I had to qualify to be one of those), getting a visa for somebody I was working with (company too small and piddling to sponsor a visa) has involved some kind of trick or dodge to subvert the intentions of the people who wrote the immigration rules.
    "I love the idea that the government can figure out which people will be above the cost/benefit line."

    Who said they could. My point is the arithmetic of it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Patrick said:

    MrJones said:


    Build more houses, problem solved (and construction jobs in a productive non-service industry).

    I live in the north in one of the fastest growing towns in the country and there are new estates being developed allowing me to buy my first home and get onto the property ladder by buying a new-build house.

    "Build more houses"

    With a declining per capita GDP building houses people can no longer afford isn't a solution.

    Only 8% of the land of the UK is developed. We're still a very green country.

    Housing is unaffordable because it is so difficult and expensive to build new houses. This is entirely a factor of the planning laws. The significant majority of the value of a house is the planning permission not the materials. We can house people, and affordably so, if we make planning hassle go away. A profound liberalisation would trigger an immediate explosion in house building - but would of course also collapse house prices. The blocker is the nimbyist block of existing house and land owners.

    If Miliband is serious about breaking privilege and helping generation rent he could abolish planning permission. Your land - do with it what you will. But as we all know this would be a brave electoral move (in the Sir Humphrey sense).
    Exactly right. To quote the prophet, we all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it.
  • Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    Pulpstar said:

    Ed Miliband is the only leader I could imagine being in my World of Warcraft guild to be perfectly honest.

    I bet he plays as a priest....
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Scott_P said:

    @carrieapples: On Monday, @Ed_Miliband missed the PM's statement on Ukraine to get a pic with Obama. Today he hates photo ops. You couldn't make it up.

    Selfies with Barry are more important than responding to the deaths of British nationals in a rocket attack from a war zone. It's what he believes in, it's something different for us to cherish.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DAaronovitch: This @Ed_Miliband speech is essentially a better version of IDS's "Quiet Man" address.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Patrick
    From what I gather it is the decontamination costs which holds up "brownfield sites.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Someone who watches The Thick of It says EdM may have just given the "I called you here to announce nothing" speech from the first episode.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Little lord Fauntleroy,Ed's biggest supporter tweeted this -

    George Eaton @georgeeaton

    Miliband didn't say he was opposed to photo-opps, he said he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing

    What about ed's big photo op with Obama,you couldn't make it up,christ help us ;-)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scott_P said:

    @DAaronovitch: This @Ed_Miliband speech is essentially a better version of IDS's "Quiet Man" address.

    Speak up ....

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2014
    Patrick said:

    Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.

    There's an evil, horrible but possibly necessary strategy to this which basically involves paying off the blocking minority. Depending on your political leanings you could frame this as a communitarian property development collective or a new kind of property right. Either way, you give the neighbours a share in the profits from developing something close to them, and in return you loosen up the planning requirements. So your neighbour can erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden if he wants to, but only if he cuts you in.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Little lord Fauntleroy,Ed's biggest supporter tweeted this -

    George Eaton @georgeeaton

    Miliband didn't say he was opposed to photo-opps, he said he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing

    What about ed's big photo op with Obama,you couldn't make it up,christ help us ;-)

    Well he clearly rates Barry shots as more important than dead Britons. Who knows what is most important of all? Inventing a soup fork for all perhaps?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


    I've emailed you confo
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2014

    Well he clearly rates Barry shots as more important than dead Britons.

    I know you rate Ed Miliband highly but say he'd still been in Britain, what do you think he could have done to bring them back?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,426

    Mr. Mark, the weirdest aspect of that 'story' was the Sky 'breaking news' banner at the bottom stating Ed Miliband was not a bacon sandwich PM.

    Labour's private polling must be worrying if Ed needs to be reassuring the Muslim vote like that....
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tykejohnno
    Are you pointing out that George Eaton failed English comprehension?

    By what twist of logic does he get from....
    "Miliband didn't say he was opposed to photo-opps, he said he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing"

    To.....
    "What about ed's big photo op with Obama,you couldn't make it up,christ help us ;-)"
  • Does anyone remember IDS popularity trajectory after he made the Quiet Man speech? I seem to remember it was the nail in his coffin - but happy to be refuted by actual facts.

    Also what should we remember this speech from Microband as? Suitable suggestions gratefully received.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Blimey, PB Tories in overdrive. Even re-tweeting spambot ScottP is out batting.

    Must have been a good speech from Ed then.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Patrick said:

    Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.

    There's an evil, horrible but possibly necessary strategy to this which basically involves paying off the blocking minority. Depending on your political leanings you could frame this as a communitarian property development collective or a new kind of property right. Either way, you give the neighbours a share in the profits from developing something close to them, and in return you loosen up the planning requirements. So your neighbour can erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden if he wants to, but only if he cuts you in.
    I don't see that it's evil to try to monetise externalities.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


    I've emailed you confo

    Hopefully I have responded.

  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,772

    Patrick said:

    Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.

    There's an evil, horrible but possibly necessary strategy to this which basically involves paying off the blocking minority. Depending on your political leanings you could frame this as a communitarian property development collective or a new kind of property right. Either way, you give the neighbours a share in the profits from developing something close to them, and in return you loosen up the planning requirements. So your neighbour can erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden if he wants to, but only if he cuts you in.
    Land Value Tax would have a similar effect (your neighbour develops a nasty chemical plant in his garden, so your land is less desirable / valuable, so your tax goes down.)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Well he clearly rates Barry shots as more important than dead Britons.

    I know you rate Ed Miliband highly but say he'd still been in Britain, what do you think he could have done to bring them back?
    As leader of her majesty's opposition, he has a duty to respond to the government on such grave issues. The fact he neglected his duty speaks volumes.
    Nothing he could have done would bring them back, but he didn't have to denigrate their memory by sodding off on a publicity junkit. He's an arsehole as well as a weirdo.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


    Could be a close call ...... Baxter currently gives Labour 52.7% of the vote.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited July 2014
    Hugh said:

    Blimey, PB Tories in overdrive. Even re-tweeting spambot ScottP is out batting.

    Must have been a good speech from Ed then.

    When all else fails, post something about PBTories.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,426

    Well he clearly rates Barry shots as more important than dead Britons.

    I know you rate Ed Miliband highly but say he'd still been in Britain, what do you think he could have done to bring them back?
    You might have a point, were Ed Miliband not auditioning for the role of Prime Minister....

    If he has nothing to add on the matter of UK citizens being blasted from the skies, then perhaps he doesn't have anything to add on anything? The voters will take note - and pass due judgment at the end of the audition process.

  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,772

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


    Could be a close call ...... Baxter currently gives Labour 52.7% of the vote.
    Indeed - I had a quick look at which side of that bet I would want to be on - and couldn't decide!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,630

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    @SouthamObserver

    This was how you started the debate on Doncaster. I had previously been saying how ukip were taking WWC votes from labour, bit hadn't mentioned this area

    "Doncaster is one of the whitest and most working class constituencies in the UK. If UKIP is really serious about going after the Labour vote it should surely make a real effort there with a high profile candidate. Perhaps even the Nigemeister himself - after all, the locals must feel horribly betrayed by their sitting MP. We should expect a massive switch to UKIP next year, shouldn't we?"

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/1409/politicalbetting-com-blog-archive-cameron-s-big-2015-debate-gamble-to-play-or-to-sabotage/p2

    Given your sarcastic nature I think it is obvious you thought you were in to a winner

    Then there was a massive switch to ukip in the locals

    The next year was, of course, referring to the GE. As I believe I said in other posts, I had no idea how the locals would go. I can't remember, but I think I may even have offered you a vote on Ed getting about 50% of the vote share. Still happy to if you fancy it.
    There was talk of a bet but nothing was done...


    If you want to bet on Ed getting over 50% in Doncaster North at EVS I'm happy to play, how much for?

    EdM to get 50% or more of the votes cast in his constituency at the next general election. £20?

    As long as the constituency is Doncaster North you're on. Wouldn't be fair one of us if he stood in Hackney or Hornchurch... So yeah as long as it's Doncaster North

    OK. May the best man win.


    Could be a close call ...... Baxter currently gives Labour 52.7% of the vote.

    That's why I am only going £20. I am confidentish, no more. EdM is not a bloke I'd want to stake a lot of cash on.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    Are you pointing out that George Eaton failed English comprehension?

    By what twist of logic does he get from....
    "Miliband didn't say he was opposed to photo-opps, he said he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing"

    To.....
    "What about ed's big photo op with Obama,you couldn't make it up,christ help us ;-)"

    No,I'm saying he's a little posh tw@t,in my opinion ;-)

    The logic is ,he said he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing but did everything in his powers to get his photo op with Obama,that was easy wasn't it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,312
    Patrick said:

    Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.

    Changing the planning rules is not the answer. There are already lots of exemptions and reliefs for re-developing brownfield sites. What needs to happen is that planning permissions should be refused on greenfield sites whilst substantial brownfield sites are unused in a council area.

    We should also tighten the rules on what properties can be built. Throwing up estates of 4 bedroom detached properties does little to help a market that really needs one and two bedroom properties.

    The removal of planning rules will probably do a lot to help the profits of construction firms but little to actually solve the housing issue.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2014
    Patrick said:

    Does anyone remember IDS popularity trajectory after he made the Quiet Man speech? I seem to remember it was the nail in his coffin - but happy to be refuted by actual facts.

    Also what should we remember this speech from Microband as? Suitable suggestions gratefully received.

    I think you're labouring under the misapprehension that IDS was anything other than the political walking dead.

    The nails in his coffin were the votes supporting him in the Conservative leadership campaign itself.

    This was of course the Tory gothic period as IDS was replaced by Michael Howard.

    Spooky ....

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    What's going on with George Osborne's hair?

    Losing it.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tykejohnno
    You are saying that when there is a crisis, Ed should drop everything to get back to the House?
    Dave didn't even stop his holiday during the riots?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708


    If he has nothing to add on the matter of UK citizens being blasted from the skies, then perhaps he doesn't have anything to add on anything? The voters will take note - and pass due judgment at the end of the audition process.

    Right, no doubt they were hanging on his every word.

    I'm going on Aeroflot next week and I'd like to state for the record that in the event of my untimely death, Ed Miliband can be in whatever country he likes, I couldn't give a shit either way.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited July 2014

    Pulpstar said:

    Ed Miliband is the only leader I could imagine being in my World of Warcraft guild to be perfectly honest.

    Ed is the only leader I could imagine painting his own Warhammer figures....
    You almost have to be a London home-owner to be able to afford the things these days. I doubt he paints Orks though.



    I agree that many CEOs don't justify their large pay packets but am not convinced it is up to the Government to dictate pay packets in private companies. Surely it is up to the owners/shareholders to make this decision. It is also worth pointing out that these CEOs ought to be handing over over half of their inflated salaries to the Government in the form of taxes so cutting executive pay will cut the Government's tax take.

    Fair go, Mr Gareth, I am also doubtful of government interference in private contracts. However, as soon as one introduces a minimum wage that principle has been breached. What would be so awful as to introduce a maximum wage? Moreover, the salary of those at the top would be linked to the salary they pay their staff; pay the worker bees more and they can award themselves pay rises too. That would also offset the loss of tax revenue that you mentioned.
    The thing is, it's trivially easy to dodge any such rule that is applied as a sticking plaster solution.

    Take John Lewis for example. They've received a bit of stick for using contracted out cleaners. That means that they can boast of paying all their employees the "living wage" while the cleaning company that employs their cleaners only pays the minimum wage.

    In your proposed system a company can simply contract-out their lowest-paid staff, and then since their lowest-paid remaining staff would earn more they could give the CEO a bumper pay increase.

    The reason your scheme fails is because the incentives are wrong, and it's still the executives who are in charge of setting their own pay.

    A better alternative would be to do something to strengthen Unions, including giving them seats on the board, repealing some of the anti-Union laws, etc. Or you could give shareholders more power to limit executive pay (after all it's supposed to be their money), and perhaps devolve the voting rights of shareholders to pension investors rather than pension scheme administrators.

    You have to find a way of involving people in the pay-setting process who don't have an incentive to say yes to huge pay increases every year, otherwise they'll always find a tricksy way around whatever rules you create.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    Mr. Patrick, under IDS Conservative polling and council seat numbers continually rose. Don't know about leadership polling, though.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,708
    Ed Miliband’s big speech this lunchtime was introduced by Tulip Siddiq, Labour’s PPC in Hampstead and Kilburn. Not a great week to appear on stage with someone previously best known for smiling in a photo alongside Vladimir Putin last year:

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/25/miliband-speech-introduced-by-smiling-putin-chum/

    Photo-ops hey....

    I do wonder what wallies are advising Ed, if the polls remain they will be the same wallies advising him to make real decisions come next year, not just to play student politics.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Brave of EdM to channel a line that worked so well for Michael Foot and Gordon Brown...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    John Bulford, economic advisor to the EY ITEM Club, reckons the 0.8% growth reading could be revised up next month:

    "The disparity between official figures, which show manufacturing output growing by just 0.2% and construction contracting by 0.5%, and business survey data, which show both sectors roaring ahead, is glaring. With that in mind, it would not be a surprise to see the Q2 figures revised up in the next release in mid-August.”


    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/jul/25/uk-economy-growth-gdp-peak-george-osborne-business-live
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @FrancisUrquhart

    He wasn't the devil incarnate last year, he only got full promotion recently
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Political Science vs Betting Markets – Who’ll win the election?

    Prof Stephen Fisher has produced his latest weekly estimates of the next general election outcome.

    Lets compare those with the probabilities implied by Ladbrokes latest general election betting odds.

    https://politicalbookie.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/political-science-vs-betting-markets-wholl-win-the-election/

    Fisher's [ and Rod's ] whole model depends on swingback. So biased is his model towards swingback that he had predicted a year or so back that CON had a 97% chance of getting an absolute majority !

    So what do you do when the third party loses 60% of it's votes and a fourth party emerges with votes 5 times as large as GE2010 ?

    Still pretend that all is hunky dory ? Swingback , my arse !
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Hugh said:

    Blimey, PB Tories in overdrive. Even re-tweeting spambot ScottP is out batting.

    Must have been a good speech from Ed then.

    It wasn't bad - Axelrod must have cottoned on to the Brit underdog thing and he is now playing on that.

    Interesting little bit:

    "He admitted using "long words" that didn't make "soundbites""

    presumably like "endogenous growth theory" and we know how that breath of fresh air narrative ended.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    You are saying that when there is a crisis, Ed should drop everything to get back to the House?
    Dave didn't even stop his holiday during the riots?

    Eh ?

    We were on about the two faced speech of ed miliband,he didn't think the most important thing was a photo op but the most important thing some days ago was ed's photo op with Obama.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    TOPPING said:

    Hugh said:

    Blimey, PB Tories in overdrive. Even re-tweeting spambot ScottP is out batting.

    Must have been a good speech from Ed then.

    It wasn't bad - Axelrod must have cottoned on to the Brit underdog thing and he is now playing on that.

    Interesting little bit:

    "He admitted using "long words" that didn't make "soundbites""

    presumably like "endogenous growth theory" and we know how that breath of fresh air narrative ended.
    Since Labour have been consistently in the lead for years now, in what sense is it the "underdog"?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,426
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    You are saying that when there is a crisis, Ed should drop everything to get back to the House?
    Dave didn't even stop his holiday during the riots?

    Dave has got the job. Ed wants the job. You would think Ed would have more hunger.

    And a better sense of priorities. But then, Ed is crap....

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Hugh said:

    Blimey, PB Tories in overdrive. Even re-tweeting spambot ScottP is out batting.

    Must have been a good speech from Ed then.

    It wasn't bad - Axelrod must have cottoned on to the Brit underdog thing and he is now playing on that.

    Interesting little bit:

    "He admitted using "long words" that didn't make "soundbites""

    presumably like "endogenous growth theory" and we know how that breath of fresh air narrative ended.
    Since Labour have been consistently in the lead for years now, in what sense is it the "underdog"?

    I think even Ed in this speech accepts that vs Cam he is an underdog. In normal human being terms.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    You are saying that when there is a crisis, Ed should drop everything to get back to the House?
    Dave didn't even stop his holiday during the riots?

    Dave has got the job. Ed wants the job. You would think Ed would have more hunger.

    And a better sense of priorities. But then, Ed is crap....

    I don't want to live in a world where the would-be Prime Minister is judged on where he is when British citizens die, however tragically. It'd be the ultimate triumph of presentation over substance.

    I say that as someone who believes that Ed is weirder than American cheese.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Tykejohnno
    I didn't realise it was just the photo op, I thought he got to talk to talk to the Prez?
    20 minutes is not a long time I grant you, but possibly immensely useful.
    More useful than listening to Dave, then nodding in agreement, I have a dog in the back of my car that does that.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2014
    Actually Ed's speech (going from the written text here, I haven't watched it) is very good:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/ed-milibands-speech-to-launch-labours-summer-campaign-full-text/

    Of course it's hypocritical in the extreme - you might think satire is dead when the Labour Party, yes the Labour Party, claims not to be interested in photo-op politics and cynical personal attacks. Still, as an example of photo-op politics and cynical personal attacks, it's very skilfully written.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    The most telling thing about Ed was the response of big brother David after the leadership election, David could barely believe he'd lost to his geeky little brother. Like him or not, Cameron genuinely believes he should be the PM, Ed seems terrified of the concept.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034
    "But I am not from central casting. You can find people who are more square-jawed. More chiselled. Look less like Wallace. You could probably even find people who look better eating a bacon sandwich."

    An astute Lib Dem friend of mine noted that Ed Miliband needed to 'own' his "weirdness". I think he was right and it seems Ed is doing so.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    Ed Balls with nothing whatsoever to say on the news Re. the excellent GDP figures.

    The Ed's are a busted flush now!
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    Eastleigh in particular looks unlikely. If UKIP can't win it with the whole of their resources concentrated there in a by-election after the incumbent has been jailed for perjury, the prospects for winning it in a GE when they are more thinly stretched and recently beaten seem slimmer still.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    I didn't realise it was just the photo op, I thought he got to talk to talk to the Prez?
    20 minutes is not a long time I grant you, but possibly immensely useful.
    More useful than listening to Dave, then nodding in agreement, I have a dog in the back of my car that does that.

    Again,ed just told us on photo op's he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing,(ed didn't think so last week)just imagine if Cameron had said it,you would be having a field day.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    John Bulford, economic advisor to the EY ITEM Club, reckons the 0.8% growth reading could be revised up next month:

    "The disparity between official figures, which show manufacturing output growing by just 0.2% and construction contracting by 0.5%, and business survey data, which show both sectors roaring ahead, is glaring. With that in mind, it would not be a surprise to see the Q2 figures revised up in the next release in mid-August.”


    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/jul/25/uk-economy-growth-gdp-peak-george-osborne-business-live

    If my July sales is anything to go by, I am surprised that manufacturing even grew by 0.2% in June. The Orders in July has fallen of the cliff.

    We sell only to manufacturing. Small, medium, large. All sorts. Some orders are not being cancelled , but rescheduled to later.

    Export companies are definitely are less optimistic than six months back.

    Something strange in going on.. Let's see PMI or better still the real data next month.

    Since, Services constitute 75% of British GDP and Manufacturing only 10% - GDP could be doing very well if IKEA is doing well. Then again, people need disposable income to buy.

    With wages growth still negative or very small, how do we square the circle ?

    It is still artifically low interest rates. That is why Carney is finding new excuses not to raise interest rates. The House of Cards could just collapse.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    DavidL said:

    It has been quite a culture shock for my kids, being in Portugal. Meal times are no longer dominated by people tapping away at their I phones and children are having to speak to each other instead. They are even speaking to their parents. I am encouraging them to look at it as one of these living history experiments. But if the internet is indeed the future of business and trade Portugal is in even worse trouble than we thought.

    Which part are you in? Friends (Labour councillors) take all their holidays in the north, because they like the un-touristy traditional flavour.

    On topic, I think Mike K is right - the Doncaster focus is tactical, to gain attention and rattle the cages, rather than a serious attempt. Good by-election though!

    Now if only they'd get their orgainsation to the point that they sort out how one books stands, my (non-partisan) day job would be very pleased. Less than two months to go, and no information available whatsoever. Even worse than last year, when we did get a stand and had a pleasant day (there are lots of animal-friendly UKIP people).
    For @NickPalmer and others who are interested in the UKIP conference in Doncaster:

    http://www.ukip.org/doncaster
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Final result from yesterday Northumberland Longhoughton was a shock Lib Dem gain from Ind

    LD 742 Con 352 ind 208 UKIP 146 Lab 48

    Ward is in Beith's Berwick Upon Tweed constituency
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,639

    John Bulford, economic advisor to the EY ITEM Club, reckons the 0.8% growth reading could be revised up next month:

    "The disparity between official figures, which show manufacturing output growing by just 0.2% and construction contracting by 0.5%, and business survey data, which show both sectors roaring ahead, is glaring. With that in mind, it would not be a surprise to see the Q2 figures revised up in the next release in mid-August.”


    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/jul/25/uk-economy-growth-gdp-peak-george-osborne-business-live

    The September update on GDP methodology will hopefully show why the ONS are out of step with all of the other indicators. Last time I did the calculation economic growth is about 1% higher than is being stated and the recession was about 0.5% shallower than is being stated. If the ONS close that gap the government will be very lucky as the per capita output mark may be met slightly earlier.

    Going on the PSF figures alone it is clear that the economy is outperforming the current headline rate given, even after seasonal adjustments tax take is up by a lot more than growth over the last two year period, even after taking into account inflation and distortions from the pre-announcement of the 45% rate and the lowering of the headline corporation tax rate. After all of those changes tax yield has still outperformed economic growth without any new significant tax rises.

    It's odd to get one set of statistics disagreeing with another like this so I really hope September marks a step-change for the ONS.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    Eastleigh in particular looks unlikely. If UKIP can't win it with the whole of their resources concentrated there in a by-election after the incumbent has been jailed for perjury, the prospects for winning it in a GE when they are more thinly stretched and recently beaten seem slimmer still.
    Times, they are a changing, friend.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    I look like Wallace and can't eat a bacon sandwich but there's more to politics than photo opportunities, says Ed Miliband (who flew to the US for a picture with Obama)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705555/I-look-like-Wallace-t-eat-bacon-sandwich-s-politics-photo-opportunities-says-Ed-Miliband-flew-US-picture-Obama.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,212

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    Eastleigh in particular looks unlikely. If UKIP can't win it with the whole of their resources concentrated there in a by-election after the incumbent has been jailed for perjury, the prospects for winning it in a GE when they are more thinly stretched and recently beaten seem slimmer still.
    Multiply the UKIP vote by 3 or 4 times, (and that's slightly below current poll ratings for UKIP) and UKIP are in contention.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Ed's not weird .He's just different.It is this difference which the media narrative is perpetuating because being different can be used in a divisive way.In the same sense,anyone with a disability knows that disability is caused by society.We are all different which,paradoxically,is what unites us.Vive la difference!
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    I didn't realise it was just the photo op, I thought he got to talk to talk to the Prez?
    20 minutes is not a long time I grant you, but possibly immensely useful.
    More useful than listening to Dave, then nodding in agreement, I have a dog in the back of my car that does that.

    Again,ed just told us on photo op's he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing,(ed didn't think so last week)just imagine if Cameron had said it,you would be having a field day.

    Nothing wrong with ‘photo-ops’ – just avoid those involving the letter ‘B’

    Barry, Bacon, Butty and Bouquet – that sort of thing…
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    I look like Wallace and can't eat a bacon sandwich but there's more to politics than photo opportunities, says Ed Miliband (who flew to the US for a picture with Obama)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705555/I-look-like-Wallace-t-eat-bacon-sandwich-s-politics-photo-opportunities-says-Ed-Miliband-flew-US-picture-Obama.html

    The really funny bit is that the bacon sandwich was itself a photo-op, complete with the bunch of flowers for Justine (how sweet!).

    But maybe they were being ultra-smart: perhaps it was all part of a cunning strategy to rework his image as 'Not Flash, Just Geeky'.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    I didn't realise it was just the photo op, I thought he got to talk to talk to the Prez?
    20 minutes is not a long time I grant you, but possibly immensely useful.
    More useful than listening to Dave, then nodding in agreement, I have a dog in the back of my car that does that.

    Again,ed just told us on photo op's he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing,(ed didn't think so last week)just imagine if Cameron had said it,you would be having a field day.

    Nothing wrong with ‘photo-ops’ – just avoid those involving the letter ‘B’

    Barry, Bacon, Butty and Bouquet – that sort of thing…
    ...or banana in his brother's case...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Patrick said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    I didn't realise it was just the photo op, I thought he got to talk to talk to the Prez?
    20 minutes is not a long time I grant you, but possibly immensely useful.
    More useful than listening to Dave, then nodding in agreement, I have a dog in the back of my car that does that.

    Again,ed just told us on photo op's he was opposed to those who thought they were the most important thing,(ed didn't think so last week)just imagine if Cameron had said it,you would be having a field day.

    Nothing wrong with ‘photo-ops’ – just avoid those involving the letter ‘B’

    Barry, Bacon, Butty and Bouquet – that sort of thing…
    ...or banana in his brother's case...
    QED
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @sjarichards: @DPJHodges Somewhere in Lab HQ there must literally be a media grid that says Mon: photo opp with Obama...Fri: Speech decrying photo opps
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,585
    Smarmeron said:

    @Tykejohnno
    You are saying that when there is a crisis, Ed should drop everything to get back to the House?
    Dave didn't even stop his holiday during the riots?

    Was Dave on holiday whilst the House was sitting?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    UKIP are on ~14% nationally.

    If the Lib Dems were to get say 3% then their vote distro may well look something like UKIP's at the 2010GE - they will get more, but at 3% I'd venture to guess most political parties would have a fairly evenly distributed vote. The "lumpiness" needed to win FPTP seats disappears.

    Now UKIP are on, I believe, 14%. That 11% will not be gained uniformly. There are areas where they won't go ahead so much, I'd expect them to lose deposits in Glasgow and London for instance, Sheffield Central.. and other areas like the east coast, parts of Essex and Lincolnshire, even some parts of the north (Doncaster, Rotherham) where they will outperform their UNS and may even in seats Thurrock, Thanet South, Boston & Skegness come very close to or actually win the seat.

    The seat calculators don't see them winning a seat on 14% but it would take a remarkable uniformity of increase in support with low variation for them not to.

    Just because their performance was uniform on ~ 3% last time, does not mean they will have a uniform increase to 14%.

    It will be far less lumpy than the Lib Dems 10% or w/e they get but it will still have enough "lumps" to get them very close or win a few seats.

    Lord Ashcroft's polling and Local Election results give a good pointer to this.

    Eastleigh by the same polling and results is sticking Lib Dem whereas on UNS it may well go (Conservative)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @volcanopete
    Except on PB where we are all practically Greek gods, though with "enhanced undercarriage" obviously?
    (except the ladies of course who will have other arrangements)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @maaarsh
    He was on holiday for most of the "riots"
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    Eastleigh in particular looks unlikely. If UKIP can't win it with the whole of their resources concentrated there in a by-election after the incumbent has been jailed for perjury, the prospects for winning it in a GE when they are more thinly stretched and recently beaten seem slimmer still.
    Multiply the UKIP vote by 3 or 4 times, (and that's slightly below current poll ratings for UKIP) and UKIP are in contention.
    Why would you do that?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,585
    Smarmeron said:

    @maaarsh
    He was on holiday for most of the "riots"

    Yes, in a defined 'holiday' period for MPs. Ed jetted off for a photo op when Parliament was sitting. It's not like he missed the Ukraine statement because it was an emergency recalled Parliament.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    We should also tighten the rules on what properties can be built. Throwing up estates of 4 bedroom detached properties does little to help a market that really needs one and two bedroom properties.

    Have you tried calling up the housing developers and explaining to them what the market really needs?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @maaarsh

    Your Capital city is going to hell in a handcart, but you have a violin concerto to perform?
    Niether Bojo or Dave managed it back till it was all over bar the shouting.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Grimsby, 10063 10777 7388 2043
    Dudley North 14274 14923 4066 3267
    ...and South, 16450 12594 5989 3132
    Boston, 21325 8899 6371 4081
    Thanet North 22826 9298 8400 2819
    ...and South, 22043 14426 6935 2529
    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Folkestone & Hythe, 26109 5719 15987 2439
    Eastleigh, 21102 5153 24966 1933
    St. Austell, 18877 3386 20189 1757
    Plymouth Moor View, 13845 15433 7016 3188
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Sittingbourne & Sheppey, 24313 11930 7943 2610
    Bognor Regis, 24087 6580 11024 3036
    Portsmouth South, 13721 5640 18921 876
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    It looks like a list of marginals but in every case marginal among two or all three of the others. None is marginal in the sense that the winner got 10,000 votes and three others got 9,500.

    Eastleigh in particular looks unlikely. If UKIP can't win it with the whole of their resources concentrated there in a by-election after the incumbent has been jailed for perjury, the prospects for winning it in a GE when they are more thinly stretched and recently beaten seem slimmer still.
    Multiply the UKIP vote by 3 or 4 times, (and that's slightly below current poll ratings for UKIP) and UKIP are in contention.
    Why would you do that?
    UKIP achieved 919,471 votes at the last General Election (3.1%)

    They were around 3% in the polls before that one.

    Assuming a lowish estimate (Some may say realistic) of 9% for UKIP in GE2015 trebling the number of voters in each seat takes you from 3 -> 9%... !

    12% = Quadruple.

    Some areas higher, others lower - it won't be uniform multiplicative or additive (traditional) swing. But its a working starting point.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited July 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are on ~14% nationally.

    If the Lib Dems were to get say 3% then their vote distro may well look something like UKIP's at the 2010GE - they will get more, but at 3% I'd venture to guess most political parties would have a fairly evenly distributed vote. The "lumpiness" needed to win FPTP seats disappears.

    Now UKIP are on, I believe, 14%. That 11% will not be gained uniformly. There are areas where they won't go ahead so much, I'd expect them to lose deposits in Glasgow and London for instance, Sheffield Central.. and other areas like the east coast, parts of Essex and Lincolnshire, even some parts of the north (Doncaster, Rotherham) where they will outperform their UNS and may even in seats Thurrock, Thanet South, Boston & Skegness come very close to or actually win the seat.

    The seat calculators don't see them winning a seat on 14% but it would take a remarkable uniformity of increase in support with low variation for them not to.

    Just because their performance was uniform on ~ 3% last time, does not mean they will have a uniform increase to 14%.

    It will be far less lumpy than the Lib Dems 10% or w/e they get but it will still have enough "lumps" to get them very close or win a few seats.

    Lord Ashcroft's polling and Local Election results give a good pointer to this.

    Eastleigh by the same polling and results is sticking Lib Dem whereas on UNS it may well go (Conservative)

    But UKIP won't poll 14% in a year, any more than they polled in May 2010 what they had polled in July 2009. The question is what they fall back to.

    Their performance last time wasn't a uniform 3%, and if you look at how it did shake out, there is no reason for UKIP optimism. Broadly, everywhere UKIP did well, so did the Tories. Thus - but for UKIP - the Tories would have got Balls out of Morley. UKIP's best %age of the poll was Christchurch where they got about 8%. Unfortunately for UKIP the Tories got nearly 28,000 votes so that Christchurch was both UKIP's best poll share but also one of its worst losing margins.

    I don't think the Ashcroft polling is a pointer to anything quite frankly. I still reckon on a UKIP vote of about 5%.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,287
    edited July 2014
    At last

    New Populus VI: Lab 37 (-); Cons 35 (+3); LD 9 (-); UKIP 9 (-4); Oth 10 (+1)

    And, as ever, Friday is like a Tory for the weekend, sir

    Plus a big dip for the kip.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Would anyone like to have a bet with me on Tory seats in Scotland versus UKIP seats in UK at the next GE?

    I would buy this. So if CON get 3 seats in Scawtland and UKIP get none, I win 3 points at £whatever per point. If UKIP win 6 seats and Tories lose their only seat in Scotland, I pay 6 x £whatever.

    Anyone fancy a bit?
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Grimsby, Dudley North and South, Boston, Thanet North and South, Great Yarmouth, Thurrock, Folkestone & Hythe, Eastleigh, St. Austell, Plymouth Moor View, Castle Point, Sittingbourne & Sheppey, Bognor Regis, Portsmouth South, Huntingdon, Basildon, are all worth watching.

    Well let's have a look at those in 2010. Figures are CON LAB LIB UKIP

    Great Yarmouth, 18571 14295 6188 2066
    Thurrock, 16869 16777 4901 3390
    Castle Point, 19806 6609 4232 0!!
    Huntingdon, 26516 5982 15697 3258
    Basildon 21922 9584 6538 1591

    Maybe I'm missing something but I'm struggling to see how a load of seats in which UKIP came last in 2010, with typically no more than 20% of the winner's vote share and in one case no vote at all, can be considered winnable by UKIP.

    UKIP are on ~14% nationally.

    If the Lib Dems were to get say 3% then their vote distro may well look something like UKIP's at the 2010GE - they will get more, but at 3% I'd venture to guess most political parties would have a fairly evenly distributed vote. The "lumpiness" needed to win FPTP seats disappears.

    Now UKIP are on, I believe, 14%. That 11% will not be gained uniformly. There are areas where they won't go ahead so much, I'd expect them to lose deposits in Glasgow and London for instance, Sheffield Central.. and other areas like the east coast, parts of Essex and Lincolnshire, even some parts of the north (Doncaster, Rotherham) where they will outperform their UNS and may even in seats Thurrock, Thanet South, Boston & Skegness come very close to or actually win the seat.

    The seat calculators don't see them winning a seat on 14% but it would take a remarkable uniformity of increase in support with low variation for them not to.

    Just because their performance was uniform on ~ 3% last time, does not mean they will have a uniform increase to 14%.

    It will be far less lumpy than the Lib Dems 10% or w/e they get but it will still have enough "lumps" to get them very close or win a few seats.

    Lord Ashcroft's polling and Local Election results give a good pointer to this.

    Eastleigh by the same polling and results is sticking Lib Dem whereas on UNS it may well go (Conservative)
    I would pretty much adopt that analysis.

    Around these parts, though, there is a different vibe (i.e. how voters see their choice in 2015) between Waveney and Great Yarmouth in Suffolk, where UKIP may poll well but don't have the narrative (through northern Essex, where they don't stand a chance) through to the estuary (e.g. Thurrock) where we may well see some strong UKIP challenges or even gains because UKIP is close to displacing Labour as the challenger to the Conservatives and is therefore in a position to frame that as the voters' choice.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Patrick said:

    Clearly abolishing planning rules completely is a non-starter, or your neighbour might erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden or a gaudy palace in the Cotswolds.

    But...there's alot of 'brownfield' land where just allowing development to get on would make a significant difference. I'd propose that somehow the planning needs for a suitably defined 'brownfield' site be hugely reduced.

    There's an evil, horrible but possibly necessary strategy to this which basically involves paying off the blocking minority. Depending on your political leanings you could frame this as a communitarian property development collective or a new kind of property right. Either way, you give the neighbours a share in the profits from developing something close to them, and in return you loosen up the planning requirements. So your neighbour can erect a 6 storey chemical plant in his garden if he wants to, but only if he cuts you in.
    I don't see that it's evil to try to monetise externalities.
    There's a legitimate argument for it, certainly, but in an ideal world I don't think you want to effectively extend property rights to everything in your field of vision, which is what it would take to make this thing work.

    Anyhow I definitely think there's a practical policy in there somewhere. Do it right and you hit localism, communitarianism and Thatcherite property-owning democracy buttons all in one go, and solve an actual problem to boot.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are on ~14% nationally.

    If the Lib Dems were to get say 3% then their vote distro may well look something like UKIP's at the 2010GE - they will get more, but at 3% I'd venture to guess most political parties would have a fairly evenly distributed vote. The "lumpiness" needed to win FPTP seats disappears.

    Now UKIP are on, I believe, 14%. That 11% will not be gained uniformly. There are areas where they won't go ahead so much, I'd expect them to lose deposits in Glasgow and London for instance, Sheffield Central.. and other areas like the east coast, parts of Essex and Lincolnshire, even some parts of the north (Doncaster, Rotherham) where they will outperform their UNS and may even in seats Thurrock, Thanet South, Boston & Skegness come very close to or actually win the seat.

    The seat calculators don't see them winning a seat on 14% but it would take a remarkable uniformity of increase in support with low variation for them not to.

    Just because their performance was uniform on ~ 3% last time, does not mean they will have a uniform increase to 14%.

    It will be far less lumpy than the Lib Dems 10% or w/e they get but it will still have enough "lumps" to get them very close or win a few seats.

    Lord Ashcroft's polling and Local Election results give a good pointer to this.

    Eastleigh by the same polling and results is sticking Lib Dem whereas on UNS it may well go (Conservative)

    But UKIP won't poll 14% in a year, any more than they polled in May 2010 what they had polled in July 2009. The question is what they fall back to.

    Their performance last time wasn't a uniform 3%, and if you look at how it did shake out, there is no reason for UKIP optimism. Broadly, everywhere UKIP did well, so did the Tories. Thus - but for UKIP - the Tories would have got Balls out of Morley. UKIP's best %age of the poll was Christchurch where they got about 8%. Unfortunately for UKIP the Tories got nearly 28,000 votes so that Christchurch was both UKIP's best poll share but also one of its worst losing margins.

    I don't think the Ashcroft polling is a pointer to anything quite frankly.
    Well the Bookies clearly think they do - take Thurrock for instance.

    Right now it is 8-11 Labour, 4-1 Conservatives.

    If you don't believe UKIP are in the race there then you could back both for a 78% book on the matter.

    That is effectively laying UKIP at 7-2.

    2-7 Conservative or Labour is MASSIVE odds if you don't see UKIP being in the Thurrock race.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Pulpstar said:



    Some areas higher, others lower - it won't be uniform multiplicative or additive (traditional) swing. But its a working starting point.

    Only if you assume there's no end to UKIP's appeal. However, just as it's easier for CON to get from 30 to 35% than from 35 to 40%, so it is difficult for UKIP to get much past some other %age. In a GE, that is.

    To me, that %age is about where they are now. To assume that they will poll 14% next year is like assuming that Blair would poll 61% in 1997; the case in each instance being polls.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are on ~14% nationally.

    If the Lib Dems were to get say 3% then their vote distro may well look something like UKIP's at the 2010GE - they will get more, but at 3% I'd venture to guess most political parties would have a fairly evenly distributed vote. The "lumpiness" needed to win FPTP seats disappears.

    Now UKIP are on, I believe, 14%. That 11% will not be gained uniformly. There are areas where they won't go ahead so much, I'd expect them to lose deposits in Glasgow and London for instance, Sheffield Central.. and other areas like the east coast, parts of Essex and Lincolnshire, even some parts of the north (Doncaster, Rotherham) where they will outperform their UNS and may even in seats Thurrock, Thanet South, Boston & Skegness come very close to or actually win the seat.

    The seat calculators don't see them winning a seat on 14% but it would take a remarkable uniformity of increase in support with low variation for them not to.

    Just because their performance was uniform on ~ 3% last time, does not mean they will have a uniform increase to 14%.

    It will be far less lumpy than the Lib Dems 10% or w/e they get but it will still have enough "lumps" to get them very close or win a few seats.

    Lord Ashcroft's polling and Local Election results give a good pointer to this.

    Eastleigh by the same polling and results is sticking Lib Dem whereas on UNS it may well go (Conservative)

    But UKIP won't poll 14% in a year, any more than they polled in May 2010 what they had polled in July 2009. The question is what they fall back to.

    Their performance last time wasn't a uniform 3%, and if you look at how it did shake out, there is no reason for UKIP optimism. Broadly, everywhere UKIP did well, so did the Tories. Thus - but for UKIP - the Tories would have got Balls out of Morley. UKIP's best %age of the poll was Christchurch where they got about 8%. Unfortunately for UKIP the Tories got nearly 28,000 votes so that Christchurch was both UKIP's best poll share but also one of its worst losing margins.

    I don't think the Ashcroft polling is a pointer to anything quite frankly.
    Well the Bookies clearly think they do - take Thurrock for instance.

    Right now it is 8-11 Labour, 4-1 Conservatives.

    If you don't believe UKIP are in the race there then you could back both for a 78% book on the matter.

    That is effectively laying UKIP at 7-2.

    2-7 Conservative or Labour is MASSIVE odds if you don't see UKIP being in the Thurrock race.
    That may be more down to the punters than the bookies.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    JohnO said:

    At last

    New Populus VI: Lab 37 (-); Cons 35 (+3); LD 9 (-); UKIP 9 (-4); Oth 10 (+1)

    And, as ever, Friday is like a Tory for the weekend, sir

    Plus a big dip for the kip.

    I'm struggling to find a chart of UKIP scores for Populus, but I think that's the lowest for some time. Happy to be corrected though. The rest unremarkable.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BBC – “Ed Miliband: I can't beat Cameron on image”

    Aunty thoughtfully provides lots of photos explaining why.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28459474
This discussion has been closed.