Why Labour would be crazy to replace Starmer – politicalbetting.com
Why Labour would be crazy to replace Starmer – politicalbetting.com
Last Thursday’s by-election result in Batley and Spen should help quieten down the Starmer should go narrative that was building up particularly in the media. This has been a product of the extraordinarily difficult period that the LAB leader has found himself in after securing the job two weeks into the first lockdown in April last year.
Comments
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The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.1 -
2nd like LAB!
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THird like SLAB!londonpubman said:2nd like LAB!
Which reminds me, Slab trying to out-unionist the Tories in Scotland doesn't work. I think the UK (sic) Labour Party is wise to keep Mr Starmer. He c ertainly can't be accused of out-clowning the PM.0 -
Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.0
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Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?TOPPING said:
Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't. Where did you get that from?Anabobazina said:
I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!TOPPING said:
Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.MaxPB said:
Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.TOPPING said:
Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?turbotubbs said:
Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.RochdalePioneers said:
Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.TOPPING said:
"It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."RochdalePioneers said:
I'll take the (rare) misstep commentTOPPING said:
It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.Philip_Thompson said:
Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.TOPPING said:
Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?Philip_Thompson said:
How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.RochdalePioneers said:
Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.kinabalu said:
It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?JosiasJessop said:My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:
Open up.
It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.
The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.
I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.
Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.
Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs.
I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.
Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.
Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/0 -
Whilst i am pretty neutral on Keir Starmer (he sort of inspires that neutrality in a lot of people I think!!) I don't think the judgement of David Cameron is much of a argument in his favour. I mean Cameron only just caused us to leave the largest trading block in the world - for no reason1
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Anyway, to agree with the header, there is still time for Starmer to make a first impression.1
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Headshots are too high resolution so too large thesedays. I open the thread and I'm getting Keir 'Blue Steel' Starmer staring into my soul.0
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Story of Keir's leadership - it's not the right time for it, because bloody Covid is getting the attention.DecrepiterJohnL said:Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.
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Starmer definitely needs some policies0
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"If Starmer is really that bad how come Tory PM, David Cameron, proposed him for a knighthood in 2014?" What? He wasn't even a prospective candidate at that stage. Cameron thought he passed muster as a criminal lawyer, therefore Johnson is debarred from saying he's a shit politician?0
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lol - tbf every three to four days sounds less frequent for some reason. When surveyed everyone always says (lies) they have sex twice a week never every 3-4 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?TOPPING said:
Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't. Where did you get that from?Anabobazina said:
I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!TOPPING said:
Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.MaxPB said:
Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.TOPPING said:
Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?turbotubbs said:
Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.RochdalePioneers said:
Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.TOPPING said:
"It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."RochdalePioneers said:
I'll take the (rare) misstep commentTOPPING said:
It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.Philip_Thompson said:
Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.TOPPING said:
Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?Philip_Thompson said:
How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.RochdalePioneers said:
Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.kinabalu said:
It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?JosiasJessop said:My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:
Open up.
It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.
The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.
I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.
Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.
Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs. I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.
Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.
Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/0 -
One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity. I think they are, but they obviously don't so what's the answer? Do we just give up and stay locked down forever? Do we only allow double jabbed people to leave their houses? How would we enforce such a policy? What does that mean for kids? Is their education just disrupted forever and a day?
All they seem to say is that we shouldn't unlockdown but propose no viable alternative for society. We're now heading for the least worst long term solution to this. Vulnerable people are all fully vaccinated plus 2 weeks, by July 19th anyone who wants a vaccine will simply be able to walk in and get one so any hold outs will have to be personally responsible for their own health rather than make society pay for their stupidity of rejecting it.
Is it ideal to unlockdown now? Probably not, it would be better if we had done 90% of adults twice and started making headway with 12-17 year olds. However, there is no ideal scenario because if we wait for that then we start looking at a final step unlockdown in September which means any exit wave will hit in October just as flu season starts.
Every choice on this has got pros and cons. Currently the pros absolutely outweigh the cons. Having an exit wave over the summer when there is going to be less transmission because events are more likely to be outdoors plus there will be less chance of overwhelming the NHS with COVID patients as well as flu patients.
The reality is that COVID is here to stay, we need to live in a society that is comfortable with that idea and this next step will be welcome for a lot of people. For those who need a bit of extra time to get used to the old normal, no one is forcing them to go out and if they're not vaccinated then it's really on them.6 -
Starmer needs people in his team that reach the people that he can't. Blair needed the likes of Brown and Prescott. Starmer is the same.
The state of the Labour party makes that difficult to achieve, but he has to do build out the team. He could do with tub-thumping left-winger, a brexiteer and a red-wall native.
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Starmer will stay because there is nobody better who is eligible.
And a futile leadership challenge with no hope of success, a La Owen Smith, is the very last thing Labour needs.
So it may happen.0 -
I'm sure we might go 'off topic' to discuss that!DecrepiterJohnL said:Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.
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FPT:
Current measures are nearly completely useless, they are doing very little to stop the spread of Delta. Anyone advocating bringing Delta under control should be demanding much tighter measures, perhaps going back to a full lockdown. If they aren't demanding that they aren't being realistic, they want some fig leaf measures that don't work in order to cover their arse and say that something was done.Andy_JS said:Some people really don't want to return to normal life, do they. I find that mind-boggling.
So if we aren't going to have another full lockdown — and neither the case rates, hospital admissions, or deaths warrant it — then we need to accept that the vaccines are our only significant measure to tackle the Delta variant, or any other variant, and put our remaining effort behind the vaccination programme whilst dispensing with almost everything else.1 -
Shouldn't the forensic man turn up the evidence ?Philip_Thompson said:The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.4 -
UK cases by specimen date
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UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K population
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England PCR
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Poor guys often flank the Trolley knowing he's talking total shit, this is not a 'rebuttal'... Ask CW: have you warned against the current unlocking plans? What % of ICU beds occupied wd mean care compromised like in April20?https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/why-i-went-to-no10-in-summer-2019 https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/14120636935300874240
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UK case summary
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UK hospitals
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UK deaths
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UK R
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Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.
There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.
This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.
So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?0 -
Suspect your reactions to the PM's presser in an hour will be conditioned by which of these graphs you regard as the more significant. https://t.co/jCs2P8u1LN0
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Age related data
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William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.
Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.0 -
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.3 -
Vaccinations
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Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."JosiasJessop said:Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.
Brexit at any cost, as we know.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/14120413016006369280 -
The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.Philip_Thompson said:The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.
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It was every day. And I can explain the difference between "eligible for" and "should do" if you have five minutes spare?Philip_Thompson said:
Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?TOPPING said:
Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't. Where did you get that from?Anabobazina said:
I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!TOPPING said:
Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.MaxPB said:
Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.TOPPING said:
Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?turbotubbs said:
Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.RochdalePioneers said:
Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.TOPPING said:
"It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."RochdalePioneers said:
I'll take the (rare) misstep commentTOPPING said:
It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.Philip_Thompson said:
Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.TOPPING said:
Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?Philip_Thompson said:
How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.RochdalePioneers said:
Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.kinabalu said:
It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?JosiasJessop said:My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:
Open up.
It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.
The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.
I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.
Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.
Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs. I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.
Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.
Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/0 -
Democracy, at any cost.Scott_xP said:
Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."JosiasJessop said:Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.
Brexit at any cost, as we know.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
None of those roadblocks trumps democracy.0 -
Hospital vs Cases
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I've frequently dismissed the claims of conspiracy between pharmaceutical companies and regulators regarding the vaccines...
But the story of the recent approval of Biogen's Alzheimer's drug does suggest, at the very least, disturbing evidence of regulatory capture:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inside-e2-80-98project-onyx-e2-80-99-how-biogen-used-an-fda-back-channel-to-win-approval-of-its-polarizing-alzheimer-e2-80-99s-drug/ar-AALzzpL
(Though note that there have been numerous recent decisions considerably less favourable to pharma.)0 -
Cummings wants everyone locked down apart from himselfScott_xP said:Poor guys often flank the Trolley knowing he's talking total shit, this is not a 'rebuttal'... Ask CW: have you warned against the current unlocking plans? What % of ICU beds occupied wd mean care compromised like in April20?https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/why-i-went-to-no10-in-summer-2019 https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1412063693530087424
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On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
The issue that Phil is wrong about is he said it was available and that people were "eligible for" the tests.state_go_away said:
lol - tbf every three to four days sounds less frequent for some reason. When surveyed everyone always says (lies) they have sex twice a week never every 3-4 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?TOPPING said:
Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.Philip_Thompson said:
No it isn't. Where did you get that from?Anabobazina said:
I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!TOPPING said:
Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.MaxPB said:
Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.TOPPING said:
Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?turbotubbs said:
Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.RochdalePioneers said:
Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.TOPPING said:
"It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."RochdalePioneers said:
I'll take the (rare) misstep commentTOPPING said:
It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.Philip_Thompson said:
Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.TOPPING said:
Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?Philip_Thompson said:
How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.RochdalePioneers said:
Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.kinabalu said:
It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?JosiasJessop said:My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:
Open up.
It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.
The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.
I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.
Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.
Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs. I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.
Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.
Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/
Whereas the govt says you "should do" the tests.
And as I said, not so long ago it was every day.0 -
A lot of people don't want a different normality.JosiasJessop said:Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.
There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.
This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.
So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?3 -
Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.0 -
With schools closing shortly thereafter they will be quite a bit of downward pressure on the numbers.Aslan said:
Wait til July 19rcs1000 said:On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
Current costs to enter GBNI from EU, regrdless of vaccination status:
- Pre-travel test: €58
- Day 2 & 8 tests: £159
- Test to release: £129
That’s 6 days in isolation and almost €400 just on tests for one person
Funnily enough legitimate travel to the septic isle has collapsed.
Coming the other way, if you have a Covid Pass, costs nothing extra.0 -
Life evolves - we have to deal with itAndy_JS said:
A lot of people don't want a different normality.JosiasJessop said:Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.
There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.
This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.
So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?0 -
71% of Britons say facemasks should continue to be mandatory on public transport and 66% say they should continue to be mandatory in shops even once other restrictions are lifted
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012?s=200 -
BBC One has just interrupted Wimbledon for this:
"BBC News Special
Coronavirus Update: 127"0 -
The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.0 -
On topic - it would help if he actually ever voted against the government.0
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Nah, weekend effect. Next week cases will be around 25-30k per day in England leading to a hospitalisation rate of about 350-400 per day the following week. After July 19th it will probably go up to 40-45k per day with a hospitalisation rate of around 300-350 per day due to vaccination rates having increased to about 70% double jabbed by then.rcs1000 said:On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
I think that's pretty optimistic (reported cases are about 5k higher than a week ago), it does look a bit like the rate of increase is slowing though.rcs1000 said:On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
OK so Freedom Hour approaches.
What are the key things people are looking to hear that will affect them personally.
As I have said, for me it is the end to 10-day isolation if pinged.0 -
Bit of a bold call - the announced numbers stalled out for 6 days in a row before stepping on again - if anything the last week has looked the least like a top of the last monthrcs1000 said:On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
Yes, Starmer will surely now lead Labour into the next general election.
If he wins or gets enough seats to force a hung parliament he likely becomes PM, if he loses then Burnham will likely be back in Parliament at that stage and replace him as Labour leader then0 -
People can still do so after 19th, it will be their choice entirely but they can. I hope as many as possible do, but if not fair enough.HYUFD said:71% of Britons say facemasks should continue to be mandatory on public transport and 66% say they should continue to be mandatory in shops even once restrictions are lifted
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012?s=200 -
Mike's been on great form with the tips recently (Some of which I opposed).
Chapeau.0 -
FPT @Alphabet_Soup
Sorry, but I can't let this response disappear into the ether of an old thread:
"I agree with Nick... Susan Mitchie's political views are quite separate from her professional advice. But perhaps the government should have had the foresight to engage a neo-Nazi behavioural scientist as well, for the sake of balance."
Well they have a Communist so why not? Oh, I get it ... Communists are so cute and cuddly, harmless really, and not at all unpalatable. If she can leave her political views at the door why not a neo-Nazi? Give me a break. You may think there is no comparison; I beg to differ.
You don't think balance is important in government advisory bodies, particular those that are unelected and unaccountable, and those that literally hold the power of influence to remove basic human rights? Or is it OK as long as they are all from the bastion of the moderate centre that is academia? Jeez.0 -
So Labour hasn't found an alternative with something of the night about them?rcs1000 said:
The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.Philip_Thompson said:The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.
Lucky Starmer.0 -
I believe they say:MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity. I think they are, but they obviously don't so what's the answer? Do we just give up and stay locked down forever? Do we only allow double jabbed people to leave their houses? How would we enforce such a policy? What does that mean for kids? Is their education just disrupted forever and a day?
All they seem to say is that we shouldn't unlockdown but propose no viable alternative for society. We're now heading for the least worst long term solution to this. Vulnerable people are all fully vaccinated plus 2 weeks, by July 19th anyone who wants a vaccine will simply be able to walk in and get one so any hold outs will have to be personally responsible for their own health rather than make society pay for their stupidity of rejecting it.
(a) complete the vaccination program. So everyone double-jabbed, then when that's done they switch to teenagers double-jabbed. Then it'll be booster shots completed.
(b) Proper ventilation in schools, which sounds nice but in practice is unrealistic I would think. It reminds me of opponents to my local low traffic neighbourhood instead proposing a tramline being built through Lewisham. Whatever your views on LTNs, that's not a realistic alternative proposal, nice as it might be.
0 -
He has reasonable attempts to fill those roles in his Shad Cab (Nandy, Rayner) and in high profile positions outside parliament (Burnham)... not perfect, but perfectly serviceable.Jonathan said:Starmer needs people in his team that reach the people that he can't. Blair needed the likes of Brown and Prescott. Starmer is the same.
The state of the Labour party makes that difficult to achieve, but he has to do build out the team. He could do with tub-thumping left-winger, a brexiteer and a red-wall native.
Unfortunately, a lot of them seem to have terrible friends, who would rather attack their own leadership, rather than the PM.
Dreadful choice of friends.0 -
We had 50,000 flu deaths about 3 years ago and most people weren't aware of it.Aslan said:
The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.3 -
Didn't Ed Milliband have something of the night about him?Philip_Thompson said:
So Labour hasn't found an alternative with something of the night about them?rcs1000 said:
The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.Philip_Thompson said:The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.
Lucky Starmer.0 -
You can't have democracy without the rule of law.0
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The power of the Executive is still constrained by the law. For a government with an 80 seat majority, if something is illegal, then you change the law.Philip_Thompson said:
Democracy, at any cost.Scott_xP said:
Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."JosiasJessop said:Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.
Brexit at any cost, as we know.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
None of those roadblocks trumps democracy.
Let me give you an example. If there was a referendum on the death penalty, and it came back in favor, then it would be the duty of the government to implement it, by passing the appropriate laws.
It would not be appropriate for government to instruct judges to start sentencing people to death before the law had been changed.0 -
How many hospitalisations a day is typical for flu (pre-COVID)?Andy_JS said:
We had 50,000 flu deaths about 3 years ago and most people weren't aware of it.Aslan said:
The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.0 -
Schools finish about then, so that’s a major transmission vector removed.Aslan said:
Wait til July 19rcs1000 said:On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?
My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.0 -
From a Tory point of view Starmer is an excellent LOTO.
He seems very unlikely to win, but even if he does he's not a nutter, and as such is very rarified in the Labour nonsense.
Starmer is not going to do well at the Labour conference. (He'll get cheered to the rafters of course, but he'll be a net loser)0 -
If Starmer is "somewhat insincere", how would you judge the PM? The epitome of sincerity and honesty? Ye gods.MrEd said:William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.
Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.4 -
So what? Surely that is up to them.Andy_JS said:
A lot of people don't want a different normality.JosiasJessop said:Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.
There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.
This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.
So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?
It is definitely time to remove the mandatory element from mask-wearing, social distancing and so on and let people decide for themselves what risks they want to take. Individual responsibility and all that.
I'll still wear a FFP3 mask for certain things for the time being but why should that bother anyone else?
It's what I don't get about anti-vaxxers - why make such a song and dance about it? Nobody is forcing you to be vaccinated and, frankly, nobody cares if you don't get vaccinated. Your choice but no point whinging about it if other countries won't allow the unvaxxed in
1 -
And the rule of law without respecting democracy is worthless too.Scott_xP said:You can't have democracy without the rule of law.
1 -
We should really push for maximum vaccination rates across all age groups. It's the only thing that makes much sense, almost everything else has a very limited effect on the transmission of the virus and infections. In all likelihood even Delta won't be the end point, an even fitter variant of the virus that can sail past NPIs will be along soon enough. Vaccines are the only tool, short of a miraculous therapy emerging, that are worth us pursuing.MaxPB said:Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.
1 -
Boris is more sincerely insincere.Northern_Al said:
If Starmer is "somewhat insincere", how would you judge the PM? The epitome of sincerity and honesty? Ye gods.MrEd said:William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.
Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.0 -
Been travelling - why is Twitter all of a tizzy because a Communist was asked if she was a Communist?0
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David Cameron proposed Starmer for a knighthood because Starmer decided to prosecute Chris Huhne, which cheered Dave up it is convention for the DPP to be awarded a gong, usually a knighthood.1
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It's almost as if Dom knew that Brexit would be disastrous but went ahead with it anyway, as if trying to play out some kind of diabolical thought experiment. Benedict Cumberbatch's portrayal in that film was actually rather flattering - he didn't bring out the destruction-for-its-own-sake monomania of it all.Scott_xP said:
Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."JosiasJessop said:Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.
Brexit at any cost, as we know.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/14120413016006369280 -
It depends on who is dying, really. If it's people who have refused the vaccine then it's of no consequence. They made their choice. If it's people 85+ with a million and one underlying conditions who are in death's waiting room then no amount of restrictions are going to make a difference. One of the reasons we have negative excess deaths at the moment is because COVID got a lot of low hanging fruit in waves one and two.Aslan said:
The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
The government has steadfastly refused to reveal information on vaccinated vs unvaccinated stats. I think it would be extremely revealing and smash the case for any continued measures.0 -
Well there's a teeny issue or rather discussion around human rights but aside from that absolutely if someone wants to wear a mask/clown face/niqab/etc then who cares.OllyT said:
So what? Surely that is up to them.Andy_JS said:
A lot of people don't want a different normality.JosiasJessop said:Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.
There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.
This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.
So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?
It is definitely time to remove the mandatory element from mask-wearing, social distancing and so on and let people decide for themselves what risks they want to take. Individual responsibility and all that.
I'll still wear a FFP3 mask for certain things for the time being but why should that bother anyone else?
It's what I don't get about anti-vaxxers - why make such a song and dance about it? Nobody is forcing you to be vaccinated and, frankly, nobody cares if you don't get vaccinated. Your choice but no point whinging about it if other countries won't allow the unvaxxed in
However I do believe that many anti-vaxxers might just be those who are vociferous in complaining about people wearing the niqab. Just a hunch.0 -
Because she said that her belief system, which informs and dictates how every element of how a society should be run, has nothing to do with her views on how society should be run.CarlottaVance said:Been travelling - why is Twitter all of a tizzy because a Communist was asked if she was a Communist?
6 -
Hopefully, though not if Prof Dingwall and a few others have their way on Sage. This is the biggest concern now for me. Definitely needs doing with delta - and only fitter variants will arrive (Delta plus) from here on out. If we're to beat this damned thing we certainly need to vaccinate as low as the MHRA recommends.MaxPB said:
Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.0 -
You are sacrificing your childrens' childhood and your career for this quality of output?:Philip_Thompson said:
And the rule of law without respecting democracy is worthless too.Scott_xP said:You can't have democracy without the rule of law.
1 -
Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.0
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Sir Keir Starmer does has something of the knight about himTOPPING said:
Didn't Ed Milliband have something of the night about him?Philip_Thompson said:
So Labour hasn't found an alternative with something of the night about them?rcs1000 said:
The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.Philip_Thompson said:The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.
Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.
Lucky Starmer.
8 -
Behind Malta. Not good enough 0
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There’s a case for maintaining mask mandates (for now) on things like buses.MaxPB said:
It depends on who is dying, really. If it's people who have refused the vaccine then it's of no consequence. They made their choice. If it's people 85+ with a million and one underlying conditions who are in death's waiting room then no amount of restrictions are going to make a difference. One of the reasons we have negative excess deaths at the moment is because COVID got a lot of low hanging fruit in waves one and two.Aslan said:
The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.glw said:
If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.MaxPB said:One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.
There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
The government has steadfastly refused to reveal information on vaccinated vs unvaccinated stats. I think it would be extremely revealing and smash the case for any continued measures.
Half a dozen unvaccinated passengers in... say... Newham on a bus can easily result in a very high viral load.
Not such a big deal for passengers who get on and off, but a big deal for bus drivers, who will spend six or seven hours a day on a bus.
And - one would suspect - the efficacy of vaccines drops with the viral load one receives.1 -
Take back the George Cross from the NHS.Pulpstar said:Behind Malta. Not good enough
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Oh christ - a 5 point plan.0
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@RochdalePioneers trigger - nightclubs!!!0
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Back in 1997 we didn't have social media, 24 hour news and instant asynchronous communications. At that point going into politics was something people can aspire to and imagine doing.Jason said:Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.
Now I look at what MPs have to put up with and think its really just not worth the hassle.
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Well, we debated communists and nazis a thread or two back. But yes, I literally don't care what the private views of experts are, so long as they are only contributing well-referenced expertise.ridaligo said:FPT @Alphabet_Soup
Sorry, but I can't let this response disappear into the ether of an old thread:
"I agree with Nick... Susan Mitchie's political views are quite separate from her professional advice. But perhaps the government should have had the foresight to engage a neo-Nazi behavioural scientist as well, for the sake of balance."
Well they have a Communist so why not? Oh, I get it ... Communists are so cute and cuddly, harmless really, and not at all unpalatable. If she can leave her political views at the door why not a neo-Nazi? Give me a break. You may think there is no comparison; I beg to differ.
You don't think balance is important in government advisory bodies, particular those that are unelected and unaccountable, and those that literally hold the power of influence to remove basic human rights? Or is it OK as long as they are all from the bastion of the moderate centre that is academia? Jeez.
Let me give an example. I was involved in an environmental campaign (conservation of a heritage site) and I discovered that the guy leading it was a current member of the British National Party (a dissident member leaked the membership list). He'd never expressed any racist or nationalist views in our discussions (though perhaps his nationalism had a shared root with his love of old buildings, who knows?), and he wasn't seeking elected office. I continued to work with him, and never even mentioned it. We completed the campaign, he went on to do other stuff, and so far as I know he never misused his experience or his association with me.
You feel I should have witch-hunted him out? Just because someone has views I disagree with, I won't hold it against them in another context unless they misuse them. Otherwise it's McCarthyism/Lysenkoism, and wrong for the same reason as that was.
And as for balance, well, communists are part of our spectrum of opinions too, as if you want a balanced spectrum you'd need to include them. But I'd really rather not bother with scientists' political opinions at all, and judge them by their work.1 -
"different regime for those fully vaccinated" for self-isolation.
Hmm.0 -
So those who banged on for days that the restrictions were never going to end back when step 4 was delayed.
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Labour have few good MPs. They have some fantastically bad ones.Jason said:Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.
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Unless I've missed any bear traps, it all seems entirely reasonable.0
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I don’t get this nonsense about Sir Keir’s problem being he hasn’t been able to meet people in person. How many normal voters meet politicians? Or watch their speeches in person?? Very few
They watch them on tv, and the public have had ample opportunity to do that3 -
Talking about bad ones - I hear Abbott had another shocker last weekOmnium said:
Labour have few good MPs. They have some fantastically bad ones.Jason said:Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.
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