Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
I think you understand very well that it is not only the unvaccinated you are potentially going to be infecting - and that even some of the unvaccinated are so for absolutely no fault of their own - but also people for whom the vaccine doesn't work well, and others who are just plain unlucky.
But thank you for at least some degree of honesty.
And at this point I take my leave of you people.
Don't forget to wear your mask as you head out.
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
If Covid had affected people last year the way it is this, post vaccination - ie lots of cases with v few deaths, there’s no way they’d have closed the country down is there?
Extremely unlikely and that's the logic we need to use. People who couldn't be vaccinated would be asked to take additional precautions and everyone else would already be immune by vaccination. I really think the nation has lost its ability to think for itself. People are so used to being handed down edicts on how to live that they're now confused by it all.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
Summary: There does seem to be a somewhat worrying reluctance to get jabbed in the under-40s. Also, allowing as at July 19th, there will still be around 15m adults under 50 without 2 dose protection.
With people vaccinated and the NHS "safe" it is more reasonable to use the dangerous sports analogy.
If they don't want to be vaccinated because they don't believe they are at risk (or for any other reason) then so what?
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
I think you understand very well that it is not only the unvaccinated you are potentially going to be infecting - and that even some of the unvaccinated are so for absolutely no fault of their own - but also people for whom the vaccine doesn't work well, and others who are just plain unlucky.
But thank you for at least some degree of honesty.
And at this point I take my leave of you people.
Don't forget to wear your mask as you head out.
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
That's the thing, no one's forcing them to go to the pub. People are acting like Boris has put a gun to everyone's head and told them to get down to their nearest night club and lick the floors.
So what's the betting a significant new variant turns up in the next 7 days?
Unlikely. The Zerocovidians would be cock-a-hoop if it did but this isn't like a computer model where they can just magic the outcome they want into existence.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
A lot of people are anxious about driving on motorways, that doesn’t mean those who aren’t can’t drive on them
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
But not teenagers - which means come September it's going to be isolation roulette again...
No, because the bubble system is being abandoned. That's the biggest thing from this for me.
And, even more crucially, self-isolation for contacts. The double jabbed and children both to be exempted. The test and trace system, for all the good it has done to date, might as well be shut down at the end of August.
Has that been confirmed? Last I heard it wasn’t expected yet.
That would make a huge difference in schools. For every child with Covid, an average of six have had to isolate.
Would have been more if the government hadn’t been ordering schools to break their own rules.
I'm quite sure that the Prime Minister said that in plain English in his statement. In fact, here's the relevant excerpt:
You will have to self-isolate if you test positive or are told to do so by NHS Test and Trace. But we are looking to move to a different regime for fully vaccinated contacts of those testing positive, and also for children. And tomorrow the Education Secretary will announce our plans to maintain key protections but remove bubbles and contact isolation for pupils.
I'm assuming that this will probably involve some kind of (largely useless) additional testing regime to be announced by your favourite member of the cabinet, but the substance of the remarks seems pretty straightforward: bye-bye to bubbles and bye-bye to self-isolation for schoolchildren.
So it’s been flagged up, but not confirmed.
Your caution in taking anything that the Prime Minister says at face value is both wise and wholly understandable, but I think in this case there is reason to be optimistic. Things cannot go on as they are. If the kids go back to doing the self-isolation hokey-cokey in huge numbers again in September then the parents and the Government's own backbenchers will be incandescent, and Johnson will cop the flak for all of it. There's a huge political imperative behind ending disruption to schooling.
Its a bit of a hobby horse for Dr John Campbell, but he is talking about a new paper on this issue.....basically ~2-3x more likely to be hospitalised in those with Vitamin D deficiency.
Vitamin D was mentioned a long time ago by him, we have been taking big doses throughout winter.
I said months and months ago that we needed to look at the blood test results (which show levels of all key vitamins and minerals in the blood) of serious Covid cases in hospital, as it would give clear indications as to deficiencies which could be addressed to increase robustness in dealing with Covid. It didn't go down well here.
Blimey, B&S has resulted in Starmer growing a spine. He might be completely wrong, but fair play to him for giving an opinion rather than simply pointing and tutting.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
What if someone is vaccinated and you asymptomatically pass it on to them and they then go down with it? A fried of mine was double vaxxed and still ended up with a nasty case of covid. It will happen to more and more people after restrictions have gone. Surely wearing a mask around Tesco's or wherever for an hour or so is not too great a sacrifice to help prevent that.
Shit happens. People get sick and die. It sucks but so be it.
The risk of someone vaccinated dying now is so miniscule that we'd have never started wearing masks or had a lockdown had that been the original pre-vaccine risk from the virus.
There's a risk of someone dying on the road on the way to Tesco's too. Life has risks.
But we know that not to be the case with Delta. It's got very high efficacy at protection from hospitalisation but it hits only 90% against symptomatic infection. The herd immunity level is something like 85% double jabbed or infected in a population, there's simply no way we're going to get to that level without an exit wave of infections.
Your figures are way out.
The hospitalisation efficacy rests on numbers that mostly aren't even statistically significant, yet everyone laps them up as Gospel.
The efficacy against symptomatic infection for AstraZeneca is only about 60%.
So, absolutely, vaccination alone is not going to achieve herd immunity. I agree that a third wave is going to happen. But the point is that if it happens when vaccination is complete (I mean including second doses, for the terminally slow) then it will be a much smaller wave than it will be if we go for broke now. And preferably after vaccinating children. Don't blame me for the procrastination about that! I'm sure it will have to happen sooner or later.
Here are the most up to date numbers, I mean if you're going to lie so brazenly at least make it more than trivial to research.
Those numbers are for the Alpha variant, and thus no longer relevant
The vaccines offer similar levels of protection between alpha and delta:
Funnily enough Mrs Anabob doesn’t believe that we’ll bin the restrictions on 19 July. She says she doesn’t trust the government and that they will find a reason to backpedal.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
There's a market for that sort of thing, certainly. Presumably it adds to staffing costs? Personally I am looking forward to standing at a bar again like a free born Englishman.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
But not teenagers - which means come September it's going to be isolation roulette again...
No, because the bubble system is being abandoned. That's the biggest thing from this for me.
And, even more crucially, self-isolation for contacts. The double jabbed and children both to be exempted. The test and trace system, for all the good it has done to date, might as well be shut down at the end of August.
Has that been confirmed? Last I heard it wasn’t expected yet.
That would make a huge difference in schools. For every child with Covid, an average of six have had to isolate.
Would have been more if the government hadn’t been ordering schools to break their own rules.
I'm quite sure that the Prime Minister said that in plain English in his statement. In fact, here's the relevant excerpt:
You will have to self-isolate if you test positive or are told to do so by NHS Test and Trace. But we are looking to move to a different regime for fully vaccinated contacts of those testing positive, and also for children. And tomorrow the Education Secretary will announce our plans to maintain key protections but remove bubbles and contact isolation for pupils.
I'm assuming that this will probably involve some kind of (largely useless) additional testing regime to be announced by your favourite member of the cabinet, but the substance of the remarks seems pretty straightforward: bye-bye to bubbles and bye-bye to self-isolation for schoolchildren.
So it’s been flagged up, but not confirmed.
Your caution in taking anything that the Prime Minister says at face value is both wise and wholly understandable, but I think in this case there is reason to be optimistic. Things cannot go on as they are. If the kids go back to doing the self-isolation hokey-cokey in huge numbers again in September then the parents and the Government's own backbenchers will be incandescent, and Johnson will cop the flak for all of it. There's a huge political imperative behind ending disruption to schooling.
It’s more complicated than that. We’re doing timetables at the moment and if Covid isolation rules are to be continued in September there will need to be significant changes in rooming and grouping.
We need those rules scrapped ASAP if we’re not to end up with a shambles by default.
Of course, as nobody in the government or civil service understands this, that’s what we’ll end up with.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
I think you understand very well that it is not only the unvaccinated you are potentially going to be infecting - and that even some of the unvaccinated are so for absolutely no fault of their own - but also people for whom the vaccine doesn't work well, and others who are just plain unlucky.
But thank you for at least some degree of honesty.
And at this point I take my leave of you people.
Don't forget to wear your mask as you head out.
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
That's the thing, no one's forcing them to go to the pub. People are acting like Boris has put a gun to everyone's head and told them to get down to their nearest night club and lick the floors.
Pubs have staff, as do shops, trains, buses and various other places that involve face to face contact with the public.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
What if someone is vaccinated and you asymptomatically pass it on to them and they then go down with it? A fried of mine was double vaxxed and still ended up with a nasty case of covid. It will happen to more and more people after restrictions have gone. Surely wearing a mask around Tesco's or wherever for an hour or so is not too great a sacrifice to help prevent that.
What if I turned on my TV and then my neighbour got struck by lightning?
But we know that not to be the case with Delta. It's got very high efficacy at protection from hospitalisation but it hits only 90% against symptomatic infection. The herd immunity level is something like 85% double jabbed or infected in a population, there's simply no way we're going to get to that level without an exit wave of infections.
Your figures are way out.
The hospitalisation efficacy rests on numbers that mostly aren't even statistically significant, yet everyone laps them up as Gospel.
The efficacy against symptomatic infection for AstraZeneca is only about 60%.
So, absolutely, vaccination alone is not going to achieve herd immunity. I agree that a third wave is going to happen. But the point is that if it happens when vaccination is complete (I mean including second doses, for the terminally slow) then it will be a much smaller wave than it will be if we go for broke now. And preferably after vaccinating children. Don't blame me for the procrastination about that! I'm sure it will have to happen sooner or later.
Here are the most up to date numbers, I mean if you're going to lie so brazenly at least make it more than trivial to research.
Those numbers are for the Alpha variant, and thus no longer relevant
I think that’s a mistake in Max’s posting, but the numbers are similar for Delta in the same report as I recall.
Funnily enough Mrs Anabob doesn’t believe that we’ll bin the restrictions on 19 July. She says she doesn’t trust the government and that they will find a reason to backpedal.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
I think you understand very well that it is not only the unvaccinated you are potentially going to be infecting - and that even some of the unvaccinated are so for absolutely no fault of their own - but also people for whom the vaccine doesn't work well, and others who are just plain unlucky.
But thank you for at least some degree of honesty.
And at this point I take my leave of you people.
Don't forget to wear your mask as you head out.
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
That's the thing, no one's forcing them to go to the pub. People are acting like Boris has put a gun to everyone's head and told them to get down to their nearest night club and lick the floors.
Pubs have staff, as do shops, trains, buses and various other places that involve face to face contact with the public.
They can all get vaccinated. Literally can walk in and get jabbed.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
What if someone is vaccinated and you asymptomatically pass it on to them and they then go down with it? A fried of mine was double vaxxed and still ended up with a nasty case of covid. It will happen to more and more people after restrictions have gone. Surely wearing a mask around Tesco's or wherever for an hour or so is not too great a sacrifice to help prevent that.
Shit happens. People get sick and die. It sucks but so be it.
The risk of someone vaccinated dying now is so miniscule that we'd have never started wearing masks or had a lockdown had that been the original pre-vaccine risk from the virus.
There's a risk of someone dying on the road on the way to Tesco's too. Life has risks.
This is it - I don’t believe if the infection to death ratio of the original Covid outbreak was what we have now we’d have any restrictions at all. People who are afraid can continue to take strong precautions, but we don’t want Nanny State on our case forever
Going to be a very ugly adjustment period back to normal. People starting arguments in the supermarket or church because someone else won't conform to their idea of correct behaviour.
Of course the argument itself will be far more dangerous in Covid terms than anything else, but then that's not really the point.
Well now. I had the temerity to suggest that it's not unreasonable to remove all the legal restrictions now and my wife is so angry at me that she didn't thank me for cooking dinner. She as much as accused me of being in cahoots with Boris Johnson in a desire to murder restaurant staff. It's going to take a long time for people to adjust to the emergency being over.
But we know that not to be the case with Delta. It's got very high efficacy at protection from hospitalisation but it hits only 90% against symptomatic infection. The herd immunity level is something like 85% double jabbed or infected in a population, there's simply no way we're going to get to that level without an exit wave of infections.
Your figures are way out.
The hospitalisation efficacy rests on numbers that mostly aren't even statistically significant, yet everyone laps them up as Gospel.
The efficacy against symptomatic infection for AstraZeneca is only about 60%.
So, absolutely, vaccination alone is not going to achieve herd immunity. I agree that a third wave is going to happen. But the point is that if it happens when vaccination is complete (I mean including second doses, for the terminally slow) then it will be a much smaller wave than it will be if we go for broke now. And preferably after vaccinating children. Don't blame me for the procrastination about that! I'm sure it will have to happen sooner or later.
Here are the most up to date numbers, I mean if you're going to lie so brazenly at least make it more than trivial to research.
Those numbers are for the Alpha variant, and thus no longer relevant
I think that’s a mistake in Max’s posting, but the numbers are similar for Delta in the same report as I recall.
A few points worth of dilution and with AZ immunity does continue building. The main study says this too.
The Tube, July 19: Could you put on a mask please? Sorry mate, Boris said I don't have to wear one any more. Yeah, but he also said he would wear one in crowded places as a "matter of simple courtesy". Some ministers hope @SadiqKhan will avoid all this by making masks compulsory https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1412115381322407937
Funnily enough Mrs Anabob doesn’t believe that we’ll bin the restrictions on 19 July. She says she doesn’t trust the government and that they will find a reason to backpedal.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
What if someone is vaccinated and you asymptomatically pass it on to them and they then go down with it? A fried of mine was double vaxxed and still ended up with a nasty case of covid. It will happen to more and more people after restrictions have gone. Surely wearing a mask around Tesco's or wherever for an hour or so is not too great a sacrifice to help prevent that.
What if I turned on my TV and then my neighbour got struck by lightning?
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
If Covid had affected people last year the way it is this, post vaccination - ie lots of cases with v few deaths, there’s no way they’d have closed the country down is there?
No. But the country isn't closed down now either. It's mainly opened up. It's nothing like last year's lockdown. So although this point is a point - no question about that - it does not for me have quite the weight that some attach to it.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
I think it's really irresponsible. There are a lot of double-dosed people who are now irrationally afraid of the virus, and Starmer is stoking continued fear. Really disappointing.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
It is, payment is exact and automatic and the barmaid can read your order rather than have it barked at her in a noisy bar. I think lots of pubs will keep the apps, albeit with bars open for orders too.
So what's the betting a significant new variant turns up in the next 7 days?
Unlikely. The Zerocovidians would be cock-a-hoop if it did but this isn't like a computer model where they can just magic the outcome they want into existence.
They are busy trying to magic one up in the NE.
Yes, I've heard that Pagel has started clucking about the North East. Now, it is *theoretically* possible that some powerful new variant just happens to have arisen in Newcastle at some point in the last week or two; however, more likely they've identified one of the regions where Delta-induced hospitalisations are still going through their upward phase, and chosen to imply that this has been caused by some new, unknown horror rather than the existing, known horror.
Is there any particular reason to suppose that this is the case? Unless someone else has proper evidence from genomic sequencing, none that I can see. Taking one relevant example, the total number of Covid patients in hospital in the County Durham trust has been crawling upwards for the last three weeks and is still only at about 10% of the January peak. Meanwhile, the total number of Covid patients in hospital for the Newcastle trust is at just over 10% of the January peak and is showing signs of plateauing. All this despite the fact that cases have been rising throughout the region for weeks and have been above 200 per 100,000 since the middle of June.
Well now. I had the temerity to suggest that it's not unreasonable to remove all the legal restrictions now and my wife is so angry at me that she didn't thank me for cooking dinner. She as much as accused me of being in cahoots with Boris Johnson in a desire to murder restaurant staff. It's going to take a long time for people to adjust to the emergency being over.
Sounds like you should encourage her to post here. She'd really fit in.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
A lot of people are anxious about driving on motorways, that doesn’t mean those who aren’t can’t drive on them
I'm talking about the political calculation. I think it's sound.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
If Covid had affected people last year the way it is this, post vaccination - ie lots of cases with v few deaths, there’s no way they’d have closed the country down is there?
No. But the country isn't closed down now either. It's mainly opened up. It's nothing like last year's lockdown. So although this point is a point - no question about that - it does not for me have quite the weight that some attach to it.
Of course, but I don't think they would have ever closed down to the extent we have currently if, when Covid first attacked, the worst it did was the current infection to death rate
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
Its a bit of a hobby horse for Dr John Campbell, but he is talking about a new paper on this issue.....basically ~2-3x more likely to be hospitalised in those with Vitamin D deficiency.
Vitamin D was mentioned a long time ago by him, we have been taking big doses throughout winter.
I said months and months ago that we needed to look at the blood test results (which show levels of all key vitamins and minerals in the blood) of serious Covid cases in hospital, as it would give clear indications as to deficiencies which could be addressed to increase robustness in dealing with Covid. It didn't go down well here.
I don't disagree in principle, but body chemistry not to mention diet will be badly disturbed in a bad case of the pox and I'm not sure how far one can assume that a lack of VitD in the blood isn't down to the pox itself. And some vitamins are stored in the body as well as circulating in the blood, so that's another factor for all I know.
You need pre-infection samples over a period, too (as vitamin levels may vary, notably winter/summer for VitD, but also within food itself). And then you need enough people to have some reliably infected ... I wouldn't like to have to design a convincing trial.
I have to say though the pandemic did get me taking VitD regularly till the sunny weather came, but that was the moderate level recommended by the Scottish Gmt, and for the wider reason of shortage of VitD in the cloudy weather of Scotland as much as to do with covid.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
There's a market for that sort of thing, certainly. Presumably it adds to staffing costs? Personally I am looking forward to standing at a bar again like a free born Englishman.
As a slimly built and barely average height male, I have no appetite to have to compete with attaractive women and more broad shouldered men to get served again
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
I think it's really irresponsible. There are a lot of double-dosed people who are now irrationally afraid of the virus, and Starmer is stoking continued fear. Really disappointing.
No, I like it. Consensus over. Time to put the screws on Johnson any and every which way. It's Starmer's duty to the nation.
Well now. I had the temerity to suggest that it's not unreasonable to remove all the legal restrictions now and my wife is so angry at me that she didn't thank me for cooking dinner. She as much as accused me of being in cahoots with Boris Johnson in a desire to murder restaurant staff. It's going to take a long time for people to adjust to the emergency being over.
Sounds like you should encourage her to post here. She'd really fit in.
She's been honing her social media teeth over on the Ravelry boards (LSG: Lazy, Stupid and Godless). I think she'd eat posters here for breakfast.
Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.
Brown could have become PM in 2010 if the LDs had backed him, similarly Starmer does not need a majority in 2023/4 given the SNP and LDs would give him confidence and supply and the DUP would abstain unless the Irish Sea border is removed, he just needs to deprive the Tories of their majority.
Burnham is probably Labour's only chance of an overall majority and he is the heir in waiting if Starmer falls short and the Tories win a majority again in 2024
Starmer's not going to be the next PM. Any sniff of a Lab/LD/SNP coalition would frighten the living daylights out of middle England, and without those seats, Labour have zero chance of achieving anything. A few people seem to rate Burnham, though on what evidence I don't know. He's never going to be PM either. It'll be Boris then Sunak and then probably another Tory.
Burnham is preferred to Sunak on the latest Redfield polling as preferred PM, though Boris is preferred to both still and all 3 are preferred to Starmer.
No government in history has won a general election after more than 13 years in power since universal suffrage in 1918 so even if the Tories do win the next general election I cannot see them winning another election after that
That rather depends on whether or not the available alternative continues to fall below the threshold of acceptability for a critical fraction of the electorate. I'm sure you'd concur that an unpopular Opposition can't get back in simply by sitting on its arse and waiting for Buggins' turn.
There is no absolute barrier to lengthy periods of single party power in democratic systems.
The normal maximum period any 1 party can stay in power in any western democracy, certainly on its own and without having to find coalition partners is about a decade.
Japan is an exception to that of course but even there the Democratic Party has beaten the Liberal Democratic Party on occasion too.
Whatever else you think of Starmer and Burnham they also certainly provoke a less negative reaction amongst most voters than Corbyn did
“Spain’s coronavirus rates have shot up, fuelled by an increase in infections among younger people, as the country is hoping to attract foreign tourists to help kickstart its economy” - @FT just now. Herein lies the problem: you cannot square the circle https://twitter.com/juliahobsbawm/status/1412118247462350851
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
It is, payment is exact and automatic and the barmaid can read your order rather than have it barked at her in a noisy bar. I think lots of pubs will keep the apps, albeit with bars open for orders too.
Same reason eg McDonalds had the self-service option even before the pandemic struck.
Getting investment in setting up the system and training to make it work is not something a lot of firms would have bothered with without the pandemic, but if they've done it now and its working they'll have little reason to scrap it.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
A lot of people are anxious about driving on motorways, that doesn’t mean those who aren’t can’t drive on them
If you're not anxious about driving on motorways then you're not paying attention.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
But not teenagers - which means come September it's going to be isolation roulette again...
No, because the bubble system is being abandoned. That's the biggest thing from this for me.
And, even more crucially, self-isolation for contacts. The double jabbed and children both to be exempted. The test and trace system, for all the good it has done to date, might as well be shut down at the end of August.
Has that been confirmed? Last I heard it wasn’t expected yet.
That would make a huge difference in schools. For every child with Covid, an average of six have had to isolate.
Would have been more if the government hadn’t been ordering schools to break their own rules.
I'm quite sure that the Prime Minister said that in plain English in his statement. In fact, here's the relevant excerpt:
You will have to self-isolate if you test positive or are told to do so by NHS Test and Trace. But we are looking to move to a different regime for fully vaccinated contacts of those testing positive, and also for children. And tomorrow the Education Secretary will announce our plans to maintain key protections but remove bubbles and contact isolation for pupils.
I'm assuming that this will probably involve some kind of (largely useless) additional testing regime to be announced by your favourite member of the cabinet, but the substance of the remarks seems pretty straightforward: bye-bye to bubbles and bye-bye to self-isolation for schoolchildren.
So it’s been flagged up, but not confirmed.
Your caution in taking anything that the Prime Minister says at face value is both wise and wholly understandable, but I think in this case there is reason to be optimistic. Things cannot go on as they are. If the kids go back to doing the self-isolation hokey-cokey in huge numbers again in September then the parents and the Government's own backbenchers will be incandescent, and Johnson will cop the flak for all of it. There's a huge political imperative behind ending disruption to schooling.
It’s more complicated than that. We’re doing timetables at the moment and if Covid isolation rules are to be continued in September there will need to be significant changes in rooming and grouping.
We need those rules scrapped ASAP if we’re not to end up with a shambles by default.
Of course, as nobody in the government or civil service understands this, that’s what we’ll end up with.
Well, we shall see what the fireplace salesman comes out with tomorrow: unambiguous commitments on which you can act, or waffle. I imagine that you are bracing yourself for the latter, but you might get lucky.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
A lot of people are anxious about driving on motorways, that doesn’t mean those who aren’t can’t drive on them
If you're not anxious about driving on motorways then you're not paying attention.
The driving standards are awful.
I am anxious about them, so I don’t drive on them!
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
It's the strategy of every country it would seem. The UK only looks bad because of the sheer volume of testing.
Blimey, B&S has resulted in Starmer growing a spine. He might be completely wrong, but fair play to him for giving an opinion rather than simply pointing and tutting.
Exactly - no more of this "supportive in national emergency" shit.
Blimey, B&S has resulted in Starmer growing a spine. He might be completely wrong, but fair play to him for giving an opinion rather than simply pointing and tutting.
Exactly - no more of this "supportive in national emergency" shit.
A sign things are almost back to normal and therefore unintentionally supportive of the latest decision perhaps.
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
But that Omega variant would happen anyway. Let's be realistic about it. You loathe Boris and it's the only thing in your brain for about 95% of the day. Anything he said today would have been unacceptable for you. The scientists literally said having a third wave in the summer is preferable to one in the winter, that's a major reason to unlockdown now. The options are unlockdown now or wait until next year. The latter isn't a realistic option so unlockdown now is the least worst way forwards.
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about now.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
It is, payment is exact and automatic and the barmaid can read your order rather than have it barked at her in a noisy bar. I think lots of pubs will keep the apps, albeit with bars open for orders too.
As long as they keep other options open. I want there to be a choice, not only one way of doing things.
Blimey, B&S has resulted in Starmer growing a spine. He might be completely wrong, but fair play to him for giving an opinion rather than simply pointing and tutting.
Exactly - no more of this "supportive in national emergency" shit.
Problem is, the COVID emergency is over. The economic and public finances one is about to begin.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 38m The more I think about it, the more I think this is a massive moment. The news clips basically have Starmer opposing the lifting of lockdown. There’s no spinning that now. Labour’s against returning to normal over the summer. That’s a major political gamble.
He's just staying the final step should be split and some measures retained for a while longer. It means he'll be able to blame "reckless Johnson" for the sickness & death which ensues. If it turns out quite bad all the better. Conversely not much downside. There's a lot of the public who are feeling more anxious than gung ho about restrictions ending. It's good politics imo.
A lot of people are anxious about driving on motorways, that doesn’t mean those who aren’t can’t drive on them
If you're not anxious about driving on motorways then you're not paying attention.
The driving standards are awful.
I am anxious about them, so I don’t drive on them!
Most A roads are considerably more dangerous than motorways.
Mind you, lists of the "most dangerous roads in Britain" are usually heavily skewed by the number of motorbikes doing 90mph in second gear...
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
There will be a whole set of variations with all the apps (of which there are now hundreds) doing various combinations of ordering and delivery.
I suspect the ones that will survive are order at and deliver to table (where payment is then taken) and order at bar.
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
But that Omega variant would happen anyway. Let's be realistic about it. You loathe Boris and it's the only thing in your brain for about 95% of the day. Anything he said today would have been unacceptable for you. The scientists literally said having a third wave in the summer is preferable to one in the winter, that's a major reason to unlockdown now. The options are unlockdown now or wait until next year. The latter isn't a realistic option so unlockdown now is the least worst way forwards.
The rationale is fine, it's just the presentation of the message that specific way to the public that's horrible. Not "we've got brilliant vaccines far in excess of our best dreams and take up in number far in excess of our initial expectations" but "we're opening now because it's never going to be safe but it's a little less bad now than in three months".
If I were a cynic I'd say they did it that way so that they can get to the 12th and say "ok, we hear you. We wanted to get shot of the restrictions, but if it's what you want...".
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
It is, payment is exact and automatic and the barmaid can read your order rather than have it barked at her in a noisy bar. I think lots of pubs will keep the apps, albeit with bars open for orders too.
I claim an 'age exemption' from having to order by app...
Funnily enough Mrs Anabob doesn’t believe that we’ll bin the restrictions on 19 July. She says she doesn’t trust the government and that they will find a reason to backpedal.
(I disagree, I think 19 July is on)
19 July is happening.
Oh shit. That’s it then.
It’s off 🙁
I actually checked to see if the original poster was Roger
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Well now. I had the temerity to suggest that it's not unreasonable to remove all the legal restrictions now and my wife is so angry at me that she didn't thank me for cooking dinner. She as much as accused me of being in cahoots with Boris Johnson in a desire to murder restaurant staff. It's going to take a long time for people to adjust to the emergency being over.
Sounds like you should encourage her to post here. She'd really fit in.
She's been honing her social media teeth over on the Ravelry boards (LSG: Lazy, Stupid and Godless). I think she'd eat posters here for breakfast.
All the more reason to bring here over here. Watching her go up against Philip_Thompson and some other posters will be FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
I think you understand very well that it is not only the unvaccinated you are potentially going to be infecting - and that even some of the unvaccinated are so for absolutely no fault of their own - but also people for whom the vaccine doesn't work well, and others who are just plain unlucky.
But thank you for at least some degree of honesty.
And at this point I take my leave of you people.
Don't forget to wear your mask as you head out.
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
That's the thing, no one's forcing them to go to the pub. People are acting like Boris has put a gun to everyone's head and told them to get down to their nearest night club and lick the floors.
Pubs have staff, as do shops, trains, buses and various other places that involve face to face contact with the public.
They can all get vaccinated. Literally can walk in and get jabbed.
Sure, but that won't stop a percentage of them getting covid - it just won't be as bad as it would have been. But it will be bad enough to be pretty unpleasant and to stop them going to work for a decent spell. My guess is that a lot of employers will want to avoid that and so will keep mask use mandatory, table service etc.
I 100% agree with the idea that it's time to unlock, we've nearly finished vaccinating all those who want (other than perhaps kids) and will be left with the holdouts only very soon. We can't do any more than that. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANT PERSONALLY.
But the MESSAGING of that briefing was fucking awful. That wasn't a Freedom Day pre-announcement (and thus in itself a total waste of time - why say "we've not decided anything but when we do decide it, which we haven't, it'll be these things, which we've not decided yet"??), that was a THE MISSILES HAVE FAILED press conference, which was the complete fucking opposite of what it actually is and what it needed to be to actually get people to stop cowering away in fear even if they are jabbed.
In essence all three of them boiled it down to "the vaccines are so incredibly amazing that we have to open up now because the deaths we're still going to have will be worst in the winter so we might as well get them out of the way now". It might all be well and true and responsible but it is most definitely NOT the PR-friendly message that will go down well with the public, and now we will have at least a fortnight of everyone shitting themselves because the fucking government just did their best to give them the intention that things were actually getting worse than they are already and those people essentially will be badgering the government relentlessly to roll back on most of that because the government already spent a year and a half terrorising them and then said "well, it's over now, but it's not reeally over, we just can't go on like this any more".
Absolute total car crash. Whitty presented a fairly nuanced but complex message that will inevitably be mis-interpreted, and Vallance basically did his best to go "hey, I'm on your side, these cases are giving me the shits".
Society has proven itself to be a giant flywheel, and having effectively ground the thing to a halt it needs a huge input to get it going properly again, and that wasn't it, it was a half-assed botch of an attempt that will end up having done more harm than good in getting the country up and operating properly again.
Christ almighty.
We're going to unlock now and let it rip. Thanks to our brilliant vaccines when you get it now it will only kill a small percentage of you. if we don't unlock now then "when the virus has an edge, has an advantage in the colder months" we'll have to delay again.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about now.
He's just got to come up with some mental justification to hate Boris. I don't like the guy either but ultimately this is the right decision for the nation. Getting the exit wave out of the way when it's summer makes a lot of sense. I actually think that's what has swung the scientists in favour because the other option is lockdown until April next year which Javid would never have signed off on unlike Hancock.
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
Prediction 1: practically every nation in the world that has yet to be overrun by Delta will be so, save for those that have managed to successfully implement the Pacific island model of extreme isolation, and can keep it going until they've completed successful vaccination drives
Prediction 2: those that are hit will all open their economies the nanosecond they think their healthcare systems can cope with it, because they can't afford to do otherwise
We're just in the vanguard of the nations getting whacked because the Government was incautious over the borders and due to our close ties to India. There's not a magical forcefield protecting countries that don't have Tory Prime Ministers which will save them over the coming weeks and months.
*The coronavirus delta variant first discovered in India has now spread around the world, prompting further waves of infections in countries like the U.K.
*Now, there are increasing signs that mainland Europe is seeing a sharp rise in cases too.
*There have been calls to ban British visitors in order to help stop the spread of the variant, but experts say it’s likely already widespread on the continent.
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
What about the millions of people who don't have smartphones?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
Prediction 1: practically every nation in the world that has yet to be overrun by Delta will be so, save for those that have managed to successfully implement the Pacific island model of extreme isolation, and can keep it going until they've completed successful vaccination drives
Aren't we going to be a pacific island thanks to the trans-pacific partnership? So we should be fine.
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
Prediction 1: practically every nation in the world that has yet to be overrun by Delta will be so, save for those that have managed to successfully implement the Pacific island model of extreme isolation, and can keep it going until they've completed successful vaccination drives
Prediction 2: those that are hit will all open their economies the nanosecond they think their healthcare systems can cope with it, because they can't afford to do otherwise
We're just in the vanguard of the nations getting whacked because the Government was incautious over the borders and due to our close ties to India. There's not a magical forcefield protecting countries that don't have Tory Prime Ministers which will save them over the coming weeks and months.
*The coronavirus delta variant first discovered in India has now spread around the world, prompting further waves of infections in countries like the U.K.
*Now, there are increasing signs that mainland Europe is seeing a sharp rise in cases too.
*There have been calls to ban British visitors in order to help stop the spread of the variant, but experts say it’s likely already widespread on the continent.
They couldn't escape Alpha, and they aren't going to escape Delta.
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
What about the millions of people who don't have smartphones?
"or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience."
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
What about the millions of people who don't have smartphones?
55.5 million people in the UK had smartphones in 2019 - including almost everyone over the age of 16.
The most depressing thing. It's clear there are people on both sides of the debate who just don't want this thing to end. Covid is their new cause. I can't get my head round it. I'm sick of it. I want it over now. 6:40 PM · Jul 5, 2021·"
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
It is, payment is exact and automatic and the barmaid can read your order rather than have it barked at her in a noisy bar. I think lots of pubs will keep the apps, albeit with bars open for orders too.
I claim an 'age exemption' from having to order by app...
Bars will be open don’t worry, but the pubs round me say they are keeping the app because some customers like them and like to sit down. Personally I like perusing the choice of ales at the bar!
Have to say I will miss sitting at the pub table, ordering via an app and having drinks brought to me.
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
You always could get that in Spoons.
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
At several pubs they have told me they want to keep table service as an option for busy times - apparently, they think it is more efficient.
I have heard tell a hybrid system is being devised, order via the app which then pings you to go and pick up drinks from the bar on a tray or order at the bar as normal for people who want the traditional experience.
What about the millions of people who don't have smartphones?
55.5 million people in the UK had smartphones in 2019 - including almost everyone over the age of 16.
I don't have one and never intend to own one. Dreadful things.
Thank goodness the government is banning them from schools in January.
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
You forgot Economics
Is it intentional that every professional listed so far is one where the experts don't know a great deal either?
(When we were there, we were caught in the mother of all rainstorms. It was like being under a power shower).
The port of. Indeed! It’s very touristy even during plague. There’s a weird kind of wartime spirit - if your business hasn’t totally collapsed then it’s time to drink cava!
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
This is my problem in comprehending these "learned" discussions.
Do you not know - or do you not care - or what? - that a single dose has much less efficacy than two doses.
Ditto that the virus is currently spreading most rapidly through the age groups that are not being vaccinated, and for which vaccination is not even available here, whether they or their parents want it? In contrast with much of Europe?
But the loony herd mentality here will carry on banging the drum for the crazy policy of casting aside all caution and going for broke. And the crazies will carry on trying to ridicule anyone here with a different opinion. And the crazies now include some of the people running the site, apparently.
It's not crazy. We have reduced the CFR of COVID to approaching that of seasonal flu. Or even less. We have reduced it to an acceptable level of risk. Anyone worried about catching it on public transport can wear an FFP13 mask. Anyone worried about catching it in the pub, can not go to one. Personally I am looking forward to travelling home by train from Newcastle on the 19th unmasked (and having a few non-socially distanced drinks beforehand).
I would just say you really should think before coming out with the "COVID is no worse than flu" mantra.
If you can be vaccinated, and if the vaccine is effective, maybe it is. But what about the people who can't be vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine won't be effective?
Are you really saying it's too much trouble for you to wear a mask to protect people in that situation?
Yes, it's their personal responsibility to wear a mask which protects them. It's sad for them but the nation needs to move on from this and over time we will hit herd immunity and that final bit will go for them too.
I really thought everyone understood that the purpose of wearing masks was to protect other people from infection by the mask-wearer.
Please, please, please. Just be clear and just say "Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people".
"Yes, it's too much trouble to me to wear a mask to protect other people"
Masks are hot, stuffy and uncomfortable. People need to get their vaccine and rely on the vaccine to protect them, instead of relying upon me wearing a mask to protect them.
If you're unvaccinated and I asymptomatically pass you the virus then that's your own damned fault. If you're vaccinated then let the vaccine do its job, not masks.
What if someone is vaccinated and you asymptomatically pass it on to them and they then go down with it? A fried of mine was double vaxxed and still ended up with a nasty case of covid. It will happen to more and more people after restrictions have gone. Surely wearing a mask around Tesco's or wherever for an hour or so is not too great a sacrifice to help prevent that.
Shit happens. People get sick and die. It sucks but so be it.
The risk of someone vaccinated dying now is so miniscule that we'd have never started wearing masks or had a lockdown had that been the original pre-vaccine risk from the virus.
There's a risk of someone dying on the road on the way to Tesco's too. Life has risks.
Hang on, doesn't this shoot the narrative fox of some on here that people will give up their masks?
The majority of Britons say face masks should continue to be mandatory on both public transport (71%), as well as in shops and some enclosed public spaces (66%) beyond when restrictions are lifted
70% of Britons say they'd feel less safe if in a crowded or un-ventilated place and people were not wearing face masks
This is the case among a majority of all age groups
Then those people can continue to wear them. That's the beauty of the policy. No one is saying you can't wear them if you want to do so.
Err, I think you've missed the entire point. The problem is whether other people are wearing masks.
Frankly I think it's completely barmy not continuing with compulsory masks on public transport, which can be very crowded and where many people don't have any choice but to use it. Also the staff are at risk. It's a virtually cost-free measure, it has zero negative impact on the economy (probably a positive impact, because many higher-risk people will be discouraged from using it if others aren't wearing masks), and it is the most trivial infringement on liberty which it is possible to imagine.
In other places it's a bit more nuanced; people sitting in a restaurant without masks, and having to put them on to find the loo, is a ridiculous charade. Shops should I think be left to the discretion of the owners, but with a strong recommendation for supermarkets to keep masks so that the elderly don't feel unsafe when doing essential shopping.
IT'S NOT COST FREE. If we force people to wear a mask they will make other choices. People who previously got public transport will drive or cycle instead. Public transport is on something of a precipice and needs to be made more attractive, not less.
Similarly shops. I'll continue to shop to stay alive of course. But I'm not going to shop for pleasure if I have to wear a mask to do so. I'll use the internet.
If masks work, and we need to wear them, so be it. But the benefit to the double jabbed is almost nil. We shouldn't have to wear them purely 'to make people feel safe'. This is what happens when you spend 18 months trying to terrify people into submission.
Only a tiny proportion of people are very fussed about wearing masks; it is after all the tiniest of tiny inconveniences. A far greater number are concerned about others NOT wearing masks. (See the polling on this). More importantly, the latter group are rational, the former group, not so much...
But no one's asking them to stop?
No, they are asking for the right to infect others unnecessarily.
Herd immunity remains the only way out of this situation, whether by vaccination or by catching the virus.
Quite possibly so, of course.
But for God's sake, how FOR FUCK'S SAKE wouldn't it make more sense to do it as much as possible by vaccination rather than infection?
Isn't that exactly what has been done? Everyone who wants it can now get it.
But not teenagers - which means come September it's going to be isolation roulette again...
No, because the bubble system is being abandoned. That's the biggest thing from this for me.
And, even more crucially, self-isolation for contacts. The double jabbed and children both to be exempted. The test and trace system, for all the good it has done to date, might as well be shut down at the end of August.
Has that been confirmed? Last I heard it wasn’t expected yet.
That would make a huge difference in schools. For every child with Covid, an average of six have had to isolate.
Would have been more if the government hadn’t been ordering schools to break their own rules.
I'm quite sure that the Prime Minister said that in plain English in his statement. In fact, here's the relevant excerpt:
You will have to self-isolate if you test positive or are told to do so by NHS Test and Trace. But we are looking to move to a different regime for fully vaccinated contacts of those testing positive, and also for children. And tomorrow the Education Secretary will announce our plans to maintain key protections but remove bubbles and contact isolation for pupils.
I'm assuming that this will probably involve some kind of (largely useless) additional testing regime to be announced by your favourite member of the cabinet, but the substance of the remarks seems pretty straightforward: bye-bye to bubbles and bye-bye to self-isolation for schoolchildren.
So it’s been flagged up, but not confirmed.
Your caution in taking anything that the Prime Minister says at face value is both wise and wholly understandable, but I think in this case there is reason to be optimistic. Things cannot go on as they are. If the kids go back to doing the self-isolation hokey-cokey in huge numbers again in September then the parents and the Government's own backbenchers will be incandescent, and Johnson will cop the flak for all of it. There's a huge political imperative behind ending disruption to schooling.
I believe The Saj mentioned Gavin Williamson will make a statement tomorrow.
Whatever you do at the moment - don’t mention masks on Twitter. There’s a weird debate going on as everyone’s now turned into public health experts.
Thank goodness there’s none of that sort of thing on PB.
One of the long term effects of COVID is that epidemiology has joined the ranks of teaching, running trains and urban planning in being a profession that the entire public think they are experts on.
Don't forget architecture.
Well, there you have me, because surely no architect thinks they understand architecture.
Comments
Just how many people can't get any of the available vaccines and why? And if they're concerned about cases then maybe they'd be better off getting an FFP3 mask or shielding for the next couple of months as we have this exit wave rather than relying upon cloth masks keeping them safe.
If they don't want to be vaccinated because they don't believe they are at risk (or for any other reason) then so what?
Maybe it is a sign of my age?
Perhaps some pubs will keep table service?
The risk of someone vaccinated dying now is so miniscule that we'd have never started wearing masks or had a lockdown had that been the original pre-vaccine risk from the virus.
There's a risk of someone dying on the road on the way to Tesco's too. Life has risks.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.28.21259420v1
Funnily enough Mrs Anabob doesn’t believe that we’ll bin the restrictions on 19 July. She says she doesn’t trust the government and that they will find a reason to backpedal.
(I disagree, I think 19 July is on)
We need those rules scrapped ASAP if we’re not to end up with a shambles by default.
Of course, as nobody in the government or civil service understands this, that’s what we’ll end up with.
Boris let the delta variant in whilst seeking a Brexit trade deal with India…
…then he didn’t have a working Test, Trace, Isolate and Support to keep it under control…
…then he dithered again…
… then he said “oh fuck this - can’t do it, it’s your problem now”
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1412093840920567812
But who will go into Spoons from now on?
Of course the argument itself will be far more dangerous in Covid terms than anything else, but then that's not really the point.
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1412115381322407937
It’s off 🙁
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 43% (+2)
LAB: 34% (-)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
GRN: 6% (+1)
via @RedfieldWilton, 05 Jul
Chgs. w/ 28 Jun"
Is there any particular reason to suppose that this is the case? Unless someone else has proper evidence from genomic sequencing, none that I can see. Taking one relevant example, the total number of Covid patients in hospital in the County Durham trust has been crawling upwards for the last three weeks and is still only at about 10% of the January peak. Meanwhile, the total number of Covid patients in hospital for the Newcastle trust is at just over 10% of the January peak and is showing signs of plateauing. All this despite the fact that cases have been rising throughout the region for weeks and have been above 200 per 100,000 since the middle of June.
Hang on, so the Omega strain is going to be a major threat double vaxxed or not. So lets have a party in the summer before the plague gets us. On that basis where Covid blasts through the vaccine I assume that having had it once won't be a defence either?
Thats depressing. It isn't about unlocking now. Its about just how fucked we are. Out of interest if the rest of Europe / the world largely decides to keep us away what will the reaction be...?
You need pre-infection samples over a period, too (as vitamin levels may vary, notably winter/summer for VitD, but also within food itself). And then you need enough people to have some reliably infected ... I wouldn't like to have to design a convincing trial.
I have to say though the pandemic did get me taking VitD regularly till the sunny weather came, but that was the moderate level recommended by the Scottish Gmt, and for the wider reason of shortage of VitD in the cloudy weather of Scotland as much as to do with covid.
Japan is an exception to that of course but even there the Democratic Party has beaten the Liberal Democratic Party on occasion too.
Whatever else you think of Starmer and Burnham they also certainly provoke a less negative reaction amongst most voters than Corbyn did
https://twitter.com/juliahobsbawm/status/1412118247462350851
Getting investment in setting up the system and training to make it work is not something a lot of firms would have bothered with without the pandemic, but if they've done it now and its working they'll have little reason to scrap it.
The driving standards are awful.
Mind you, lists of the "most dangerous roads in Britain" are usually heavily skewed by the number of motorbikes doing 90mph in second gear...
(When we were there, we were caught in the mother of all rainstorms. It was like being under a power shower).
"Just a few more minutes, waiting for the sunset"
I suspect the ones that will survive are order at and deliver to table (where payment is then taken) and order at bar.
If I were a cynic I'd say they did it that way so that they can get to the 12th and say "ok, we hear you. We wanted to get shot of the restrictions, but if it's what you want...".
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-vaccine-drops-to-64-efficacy-in-stoping-infections-in-israel-as-delta-spreads-1.9971842?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=content&utm_campaign=haaretz-news&utm_content=37aca49fb1
Prediction 2: those that are hit will all open their economies the nanosecond they think their healthcare systems can cope with it, because they can't afford to do otherwise
We're just in the vanguard of the nations getting whacked because the Government was incautious over the borders and due to our close ties to India. There's not a magical forcefield protecting countries that don't have Tory Prime Ministers which will save them over the coming weeks and months.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/30/the-delta-variant-is-spreading-in-europe-and-cant-be-stopped.html
*The coronavirus delta variant first discovered in India has now spread around the world, prompting further waves of infections in countries like the U.K.
*Now, there are increasing signs that mainland Europe is seeing a sharp rise in cases too.
*There have been calls to ban British visitors in order to help stop the spread of the variant, but experts say it’s likely already widespread on the continent.
@DPJHodges
The most depressing thing. It's clear there are people on both sides of the debate who just don't want this thing to end. Covid is their new cause. I can't get my head round it. I'm sick of it. I want it over now.
6:40 PM · Jul 5, 2021·"
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1412104189141032964
Thank goodness the government is banning them from schools in January.