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Why Labour would be crazy to replace Starmer – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited July 2021 in General
imageWhy Labour would be crazy to replace Starmer – politicalbetting.com

Last Thursday’s by-election result in Batley and Spen should help quieten down the Starmer should go narrative that was building up particularly in the media. This has been a product of the extraordinarily difficult period that the LAB leader has found himself in after securing the job two weeks into the first lockdown in April last year.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.

    Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,183
    2nd like LAB! :lol:
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,663

    2nd like LAB! :lol:

    THird like SLAB!

    Which reminds me, Slab trying to out-unionist the Tories in Scotland doesn't work. I think the UK (sic) Labour Party is wise to keep Mr Starmer. He c ertainly can't be accused of out-clowning the PM.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,324
    Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:

    Open up.

    It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.

    The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.

    I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.

    It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?

    Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
    Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.

    We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.

    Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
    How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.

    The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
    Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?
    Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.

    Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
    It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.

    Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs.
    I'll take the (rare) misstep comment :) I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.

    Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
    "It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."

    This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
    Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.

    Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
    Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.
    Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?

    Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
    Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.
    Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.
    I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!
    No it isn't. Where did you get that from?

    Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.

    Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
    Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.

    Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/
    Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417
    Whilst i am pretty neutral on Keir Starmer (he sort of inspires that neutrality in a lot of people I think!!) I don't think the judgement of David Cameron is much of a argument in his favour. I mean Cameron only just caused us to leave the largest trading block in the world - for no reason
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,324
    Anyway, to agree with the header, there is still time for Starmer to make a first impression.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Headshots are too high resolution so too large thesedays. I open the thread and I'm getting Keir 'Blue Steel' Starmer staring into my soul.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.

    Story of Keir's leadership - it's not the right time for it, because bloody Covid is getting the attention.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Starmer definitely needs some policies
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    "If Starmer is really that bad how come Tory PM, David Cameron, proposed him for a knighthood in 2014?" What? He wasn't even a prospective candidate at that stage. Cameron thought he passed muster as a criminal lawyer, therefore Johnson is debarred from saying he's a shit politician?
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417
    edited July 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:

    Open up.

    It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.

    The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.

    I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.

    It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?

    Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
    Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.

    We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.

    Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
    How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.

    The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
    Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?
    Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.

    Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
    It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.

    Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs.
    I'll take the (rare) misstep comment :) I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.

    Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
    "It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."

    This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
    Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.

    Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
    Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.
    Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?

    Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
    Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.
    Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.
    I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!
    No it isn't. Where did you get that from?

    Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.

    Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
    Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.

    Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/
    Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?
    lol - tbf every three to four days sounds less frequent for some reason. When surveyed everyone always says (lies) they have sex twice a week never every 3-4 days
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Starmer needs people in his team that reach the people that he can't. Blair needed the likes of Brown and Prescott. Starmer is the same.

    The state of the Labour party makes that difficult to achieve, but he has to do build out the team. He could do with tub-thumping left-winger, a brexiteer and a red-wall native.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Starmer will stay because there is nobody better who is eligible.
    And a futile leadership challenge with no hope of success, a La Owen Smith, is the very last thing Labour needs.
    So it may happen.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    Headshots are too high resolution so too large thesedays. I open the thread and I'm getting Keir 'Blue Steel' Starmer staring into my soul.

    Was going to say how youthful he looks for such an incredibly old man, then found he is 18 months younger than me.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,183

    Seems an odd time to publish a thread on Starmer when Boris is half an hour away from announcing whatever has already been trailed.

    I'm sure we might go 'off topic' to discuss that! :lol:
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    FPT:
    Andy_JS said:

    Some people really don't want to return to normal life, do they. I find that mind-boggling.

    Current measures are nearly completely useless, they are doing very little to stop the spread of Delta. Anyone advocating bringing Delta under control should be demanding much tighter measures, perhaps going back to a full lockdown. If they aren't demanding that they aren't being realistic, they want some fig leaf measures that don't work in order to cover their arse and say that something was done.

    So if we aren't going to have another full lockdown — and neither the case rates, hospital admissions, or deaths warrant it — then we need to accept that the vaccines are our only significant measure to tackle the Delta variant, or any other variant, and put our remaining effort behind the vaccination programme whilst dispensing with almost everything else.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502

    The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.

    Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.

    Shouldn't the forensic man turn up the evidence ?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK cases by specimen date

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K population

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    kle4 said:

    Headshots are too high resolution so too large thesedays. I open the thread and I'm getting Keir 'Blue Steel' Starmer staring into my soul.

    Yes, a little Gaussian blur would have been more flattering.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    edited July 2021
    England PCR

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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,883
    Poor guys often flank the Trolley knowing he's talking total shit, this is not a 'rebuttal'... Ask CW: have you warned against the current unlocking plans? What % of ICU beds occupied wd mean care compromised like in April20?https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/why-i-went-to-no10-in-summer-2019 https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1412063693530087424
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK case summary

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK hospitals

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK deaths

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    UK R

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.

    There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.

    This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.

    So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Suspect your reactions to the PM's presser in an hour will be conditioned by which of these graphs you regard as the more significant. https://t.co/jCs2P8u1LN
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    Age related data

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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.

    Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    Vaccinations

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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,883

    Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.

    Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."

    Brexit at any cost, as we know.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953

    The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.

    Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.

    The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited July 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:

    Open up.

    It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.

    The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.

    I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.

    It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?

    Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
    Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.

    We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.

    Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
    How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.

    The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
    Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?
    Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.

    Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
    It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.

    Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs.
    I'll take the (rare) misstep comment :) I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.

    Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
    "It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."

    This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
    Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.

    Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
    Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.
    Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?

    Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
    Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.
    Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.
    I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!
    No it isn't. Where did you get that from?

    Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.

    Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
    Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.

    Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/
    Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?
    It was every day. And I can explain the difference between "eligible for" and "should do" if you have five minutes spare?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.

    Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."

    Brexit at any cost, as we know.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
    Democracy, at any cost.

    None of those roadblocks trumps democracy.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330
    Hospital vs Cases

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    I've frequently dismissed the claims of conspiracy between pharmaceutical companies and regulators regarding the vaccines...
    But the story of the recent approval of Biogen's Alzheimer's drug does suggest, at the very least, disturbing evidence of regulatory capture:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inside-e2-80-98project-onyx-e2-80-99-how-biogen-used-an-fda-back-channel-to-win-approval-of-its-polarizing-alzheimer-e2-80-99s-drug/ar-AALzzpL

    (Though note that there have been numerous recent decisions considerably less favourable to pharma.)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807
    Scott_xP said:

    Poor guys often flank the Trolley knowing he's talking total shit, this is not a 'rebuttal'... Ask CW: have you warned against the current unlocking plans? What % of ICU beds occupied wd mean care compromised like in April20?https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/why-i-went-to-no10-in-summer-2019 https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1412063693530087424

    Cummings wants everyone locked down apart from himself
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953
    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.
  • Options
    AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    Wait til July 19
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    My own views on whether to open up, stay at the same level, or slap on more restrictions:

    Open up.

    It's easy for me to say: as a family, we prefer to lock ourselves down a little longer for various reasons, and we have the capability to do so. When saying 'open up', I'm well aware other are not in that fortunate situation. We shall continue to wear masks and exercise caution until the numbers are down: but that is our choice.

    The dreaded pox is resurgent, and that is bad news. However, the lockdowns were sold to us on the basis of the NHS being able to cope with Covid patients, and the connection between cases and hospitalisations appears to have been broken. People are fed up, and the side effects of lockdown are growing more pernicious day by day.

    I will say that, despite the carping, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make the decision. It's one of the cases where anyone claiming there is a definite 'correct and easy' decision is either a fool or a knowing liar.

    It's pretty much a done deal, isn't it, that July 19th is going ahead with neither delay nor serious exceptions?

    Or have I missed something? Are the drums beating out something else?
    Its going ahead because it is in the political interests of the PM for it to go ahead. Its *what* goes ahead that is the problem. @JosiasJessop wasn't happy that I wasn't being precise so let me give a more precise no from perspective - nightclubs.

    We must be batshit crazy to open them up the week after next when we have this huge spike tearings its way across the country. Outdoor events like gigs and festivals and sport yes. We've already opened the pubs up. Its that we're saying "no more restrictions from next Monday week and there will be no return to restrictions" alongside "don't wear a mask or worry about social distancing, use your common sense" that is truly stupid.

    Even if the step was "we're mostly opening up, but FFS don't act like irresponsible prannocks. Covid can still make you really sick and give you a debilitating condition that may affect you long term so be careful" that would be ok. Not "I hate masks they are awful and I'm taking it off as soon as I can".
    How about if you don't want to be infected at a nightclub, you don't go to a nightclub.

    The issue is that Covid isn't likely to make you really sick or give you a debilitating condition post-vaccinations, so its time to get back to normal.
    Judging by the number of teens who currently have Covid (anecdata, that said) I think nightclubs will be very safe for all but the anti-vax 40-64yr olds and what the hell are they doing there in the first place?
    Well indeed. If an anti-vax 55 year old goes clubbing and gets infected then that's called Personal Responsibility.

    Shame Rochdale is so allergic to the concept.
    It's a (rare) misstep from Rochdale.

    Of all the examples, buses for the drivers, child care assistants, etc he chooses nightclubs.
    I'll take the (rare) misstep comment :) I don't think for a minute that under 30s clubbers are as likely to suffer badly with pox as other groups - though some will. Its them spreading back into the wider populace. I know several people who have been double jabbed and come down with Covid anyway. It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable.

    Yes. Masks on public transport and in shops. I have already posted on the hypocrisy of Jenrick et al commuting in their Jags whilst imploring the proles go mask free crushed into the tube like in the good old days.
    "It hasn't killed them, but its entirely avoidable."

    This is not sufficient to keep them closed.
    Its happening anyway, and I'm north of the wall (and besides which out in the sticks) so it doesn't directly affect me. I hope very much that Whitty et al are correct on this one, its just that you look at the rates of pox here and across Europe and wonder how we have got this so badly wrong when their infection rates are (largely) on the floor. If ours were as well then fine.

    Removing all restrictions including masks and social distancing because "yes you may make a load of people ill but not many of them will die" just feels odd in the middle of a massive spike that isn't happening elsewhere.
    Simple answer is delta, combined with high levels of asymptomatic testing here, and less so in Europe. We have a huge Indian population and thus seeded delta in many places. Less so in Europe, but it is undoubtedly spreading there, and will become an issue for them too.
    Does it remain government advice to test ourselves every day even if asymptomatic?

    Also apropos of compliance, etc - I saw some stats on the ERP events - ie Ascot some others can't remember which. Only 15% of those attending completed the full testing regime (LFT before going, PCR before going, PCR after going).
    Yes, twice a week or any day you're going out. I don't do it because it's ridiculous and I'm now in office at least 3 days per week and usually we're out on Saturday for dinner or drinks. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history. It's just fear mongering at large for a vaccinated population.
    Plus pointless. Who, if asymptomatic, would be about to go to dinner with friends, or have them over, and then take a jab which might mean they would have to cancel? Ans: no one sane.
    I have never had a covid test. I only learned on here last week that government policy is to test yourself daily. I doubt very many people are even aware of this!
    No it isn't. Where did you get that from?

    Everyone is eligible to get two tests per week and its recommended to test yourself if you have symptoms, but its not policy to test daily and never has been.

    Sky still introducing 'Independent SAGE' zero covidians as 'SAGE' members. They seem to be waking up to the fact they're losing the argument, but still screaching about how wrong it is.
    Wrong. It was. Now every 3-4 days.

    Link again: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/regular-rapid-coronavirus-tests-if-you-do-not-have-symptoms/
    Can you explain to me the difference between twice a week, and every 3-4 days?
    lol - tbf every three to four days sounds less frequent for some reason. When surveyed everyone always says (lies) they have sex twice a week never every 3-4 days
    The issue that Phil is wrong about is he said it was available and that people were "eligible for" the tests.

    Whereas the govt says you "should do" the tests.

    And as I said, not so long ago it was every day.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,550

    Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.

    There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.

    This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.

    So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?

    A lot of people don't want a different normality.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    Wait til July 19
    With schools closing shortly thereafter they will be quite a bit of downward pressure on the numbers.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,209
    Current costs to enter GBNI from EU, regrdless of vaccination status:

    - Pre-travel test: €58
    - Day 2 & 8 tests: £159
    - Test to release: £129
    That’s 6 days in isolation and almost €400 just on tests for one person

    Funnily enough legitimate travel to the septic isle has collapsed.

    Coming the other way, if you have a Covid Pass, costs nothing extra.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Andy_JS said:

    Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.

    There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.

    This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.

    So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?

    A lot of people don't want a different normality.
    Life evolves - we have to deal with it
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited July 2021
    71% of Britons say facemasks should continue to be mandatory on public transport and 66% say they should continue to be mandatory in shops even once other restrictions are lifted

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012?s=20
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,550
    BBC One has just interrupted Wimbledon for this:

    "BBC News Special
    Coronavirus Update: 127"
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    AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.

    The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    On topic - it would help if he actually ever voted against the government.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    Nah, weekend effect. Next week cases will be around 25-30k per day in England leading to a hospitalisation rate of about 350-400 per day the following week. After July 19th it will probably go up to 40-45k per day with a hospitalisation rate of around 300-350 per day due to vaccination rates having increased to about 70% double jabbed by then.
  • Options
    MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    I think that's pretty optimistic (reported cases are about 5k higher than a week ago), it does look a bit like the rate of increase is slowing though.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    OK so Freedom Hour approaches.

    What are the key things people are looking to hear that will affect them personally.

    As I have said, for me it is the end to 10-day isolation if pinged.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    Bit of a bold call - the announced numbers stalled out for 6 days in a row before stepping on again - if anything the last week has looked the least like a top of the last month
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited July 2021
    Yes, Starmer will surely now lead Labour into the next general election.

    If he wins or gets enough seats to force a hung parliament he likely becomes PM, if he loses then Burnham will likely be back in Parliament at that stage and replace him as Labour leader then
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    HYUFD said:

    71% of Britons say facemasks should continue to be mandatory on public transport and 66% say they should continue to be mandatory in shops even once restrictions are lifted

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1412074455141163012?s=20

    People can still do so after 19th, it will be their choice entirely but they can. I hope as many as possible do, but if not fair enough.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Mike's been on great form with the tips recently (Some of which I opposed).
    Chapeau.
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    ridaligoridaligo Posts: 174
    FPT @Alphabet_Soup

    Sorry, but I can't let this response disappear into the ether of an old thread:

    "I agree with Nick... Susan Mitchie's political views are quite separate from her professional advice. But perhaps the government should have had the foresight to engage a neo-Nazi behavioural scientist as well, for the sake of balance."

    Well they have a Communist so why not? Oh, I get it ... Communists are so cute and cuddly, harmless really, and not at all unpalatable. If she can leave her political views at the door why not a neo-Nazi? Give me a break. You may think there is no comparison; I beg to differ.

    You don't think balance is important in government advisory bodies, particular those that are unelected and unaccountable, and those that literally hold the power of influence to remove basic human rights? Or is it OK as long as they are all from the bastion of the moderate centre that is academia? Jeez.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.

    Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.

    The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.

    So Labour hasn't found an alternative with something of the night about them?

    Lucky Starmer.
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    MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity. I think they are, but they obviously don't so what's the answer? Do we just give up and stay locked down forever? Do we only allow double jabbed people to leave their houses? How would we enforce such a policy? What does that mean for kids? Is their education just disrupted forever and a day?

    All they seem to say is that we shouldn't unlockdown but propose no viable alternative for society. We're now heading for the least worst long term solution to this. Vulnerable people are all fully vaccinated plus 2 weeks, by July 19th anyone who wants a vaccine will simply be able to walk in and get one so any hold outs will have to be personally responsible for their own health rather than make society pay for their stupidity of rejecting it.

    I believe they say:

    (a) complete the vaccination program. So everyone double-jabbed, then when that's done they switch to teenagers double-jabbed. Then it'll be booster shots completed.

    (b) Proper ventilation in schools, which sounds nice but in practice is unrealistic I would think. It reminds me of opponents to my local low traffic neighbourhood instead proposing a tramline being built through Lewisham. Whatever your views on LTNs, that's not a realistic alternative proposal, nice as it might be.

  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,413
    Jonathan said:

    Starmer needs people in his team that reach the people that he can't. Blair needed the likes of Brown and Prescott. Starmer is the same.

    The state of the Labour party makes that difficult to achieve, but he has to do build out the team. He could do with tub-thumping left-winger, a brexiteer and a red-wall native.

    He has reasonable attempts to fill those roles in his Shad Cab (Nandy, Rayner) and in high profile positions outside parliament (Burnham)... not perfect, but perfectly serviceable.

    Unfortunately, a lot of them seem to have terrible friends, who would rather attack their own leadership, rather than the PM.

    Dreadful choice of friends.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,550
    Aslan said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.

    The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
    We had 50,000 flu deaths about 3 years ago and most people weren't aware of it.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282

    rcs1000 said:

    The one thing Starmer has absolutely got on his side is that the Labour Party is useless at getting rid of bad leaders.

    Maybe the quiet forensic man will turn up the volume.

    The other thing in his favor is that non of the alternatives is that exciting.

    So Labour hasn't found an alternative with something of the night about them?

    Lucky Starmer.
    Didn't Ed Milliband have something of the night about him?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,883
    You can't have democracy without the rule of law.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.

    Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."

    Brexit at any cost, as we know.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
    Democracy, at any cost.

    None of those roadblocks trumps democracy.
    The power of the Executive is still constrained by the law. For a government with an 80 seat majority, if something is illegal, then you change the law.

    Let me give you an example. If there was a referendum on the death penalty, and it came back in favor, then it would be the duty of the government to implement it, by passing the appropriate laws.

    It would not be appropriate for government to instruct judges to start sentencing people to death before the law had been changed.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Andy_JS said:

    Aslan said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.

    The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
    We had 50,000 flu deaths about 3 years ago and most people weren't aware of it.
    How many hospitalisations a day is typical for flu (pre-COVID)?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953
    Aslan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of Covid, is it my imagination or do UK cases appear to have peaked?

    My lazy reading of the numbers suggests that - at the very least - case numbers have stopped going up.

    Wait til July 19
    Schools finish about then, so that’s a major transmission vector removed.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    From a Tory point of view Starmer is an excellent LOTO.

    He seems very unlikely to win, but even if he does he's not a nutter, and as such is very rarified in the Labour nonsense.

    Starmer is not going to do well at the Labour conference. (He'll get cheered to the rafters of course, but he'll be a net loser)
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,538
    MrEd said:

    William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.

    Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.

    If Starmer is "somewhat insincere", how would you judge the PM? The epitome of sincerity and honesty? Ye gods.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    Andy_JS said:

    Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.

    There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.

    This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.

    So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?

    A lot of people don't want a different normality.
    So what? Surely that is up to them.

    It is definitely time to remove the mandatory element from mask-wearing, social distancing and so on and let people decide for themselves what risks they want to take. Individual responsibility and all that.

    I'll still wear a FFP3 mask for certain things for the time being but why should that bother anyone else?

    It's what I don't get about anti-vaxxers - why make such a song and dance about it? Nobody is forcing you to be vaccinated and, frankly, nobody cares if you don't get vaccinated. Your choice but no point whinging about it if other countries won't allow the unvaxxed in
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    You can't have democracy without the rule of law.

    And the rule of law without respecting democracy is worthless too.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    MaxPB said:

    Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.

    We should really push for maximum vaccination rates across all age groups. It's the only thing that makes much sense, almost everything else has a very limited effect on the transmission of the virus and infections. In all likelihood even Delta won't be the end point, an even fitter variant of the virus that can sail past NPIs will be along soon enough. Vaccines are the only tool, short of a miraculous therapy emerging, that are worth us pursuing.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MrEd said:

    William Hague was also pretty devastating when it came to PMQs but made no headroom.

    Starmer's problem is multi-faceted. There is the woke issue. His personality doesn't help as it comes across as somewhat insincere and saying what he thinks people want to hear. The main thing is his brand - he's viewed by many of those he needs to win back in traditional Red Wall seats as a hardcore Remainer. Labour would be better off with Burnham - he wouldn't win either but at least he would give a better impression Labour has accepted the Brexit vote and he would not come across as another one of the North London metro elite.

    If Starmer is "somewhat insincere", how would you judge the PM? The epitome of sincerity and honesty? Ye gods.
    Boris is more sincerely insincere.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,611
    Been travelling - why is Twitter all of a tizzy because a Communist was asked if she was a Communist?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    David Cameron proposed Starmer for a knighthood because Starmer decided to prosecute Chris Huhne, which cheered Dave up it is convention for the DPP to be awarded a gong, usually a knighthood.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,298
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it.

    Tellingly contemptuous aside in latest Cummings blog, where he recalls telling @BorisJohnson that determination to 'Get #Brexit Done' mustn't be deflected "when officials start babbling about Ireland, the union, the rule of law..."

    Brexit at any cost, as we know.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1412041301600636928
    It's almost as if Dom knew that Brexit would be disastrous but went ahead with it anyway, as if trying to play out some kind of diabolical thought experiment. Benedict Cumberbatch's portrayal in that film was actually rather flattering - he didn't bring out the destruction-for-its-own-sake monomania of it all.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Aslan said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.

    The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
    It depends on who is dying, really. If it's people who have refused the vaccine then it's of no consequence. They made their choice. If it's people 85+ with a million and one underlying conditions who are in death's waiting room then no amount of restrictions are going to make a difference. One of the reasons we have negative excess deaths at the moment is because COVID got a lot of low hanging fruit in waves one and two.

    The government has steadfastly refused to reveal information on vaccinated vs unvaccinated stats. I think it would be extremely revealing and smash the case for any continued measures.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    OllyT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Most of us want to return to 'normality' , but the post-Covid world will have a different normality.

    There are wide-open goals here for all sides: covid has had a massively disruptive effect. Johnson, Starmer or Davey (ha!) need to find and communicate a vision for the country that melds the desire for normality with a forward-looking agenda that might be unthinkable in ordinary times.

    This may seem to be right on Labour's pitch, but with Brexit Johnson has shown that he can deliver the unthinkable, even if some don't like it. On the other hand, Starmer might be competent, but he's not exactly inspirational, and too many people behind him will want a hard-left agenda that has alrady been rejected twice by the electorate.

    So, what prospectus can the parties offer the electorate that makes the most out of this opportunity for change, without frightening the horses too much?

    A lot of people don't want a different normality.
    So what? Surely that is up to them.

    It is definitely time to remove the mandatory element from mask-wearing, social distancing and so on and let people decide for themselves what risks they want to take. Individual responsibility and all that.

    I'll still wear a FFP3 mask for certain things for the time being but why should that bother anyone else?

    It's what I don't get about anti-vaxxers - why make such a song and dance about it? Nobody is forcing you to be vaccinated and, frankly, nobody cares if you don't get vaccinated. Your choice but no point whinging about it if other countries won't allow the unvaxxed in
    Well there's a teeny issue or rather discussion around human rights but aside from that absolutely if someone wants to wear a mask/clown face/niqab/etc then who cares.

    However I do believe that many anti-vaxxers might just be those who are vociferous in complaining about people wearing the niqab. Just a hunch.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    Well yes of course. I think early on one of the more rational SAGE members said that everyone in the nation will catch COVID at some stage and what we really needed to do was ensure that anyone who was at risk was vaccinated so they would get lesser or no symptoms. We've achieved that goal and are therefore pushing through the final unlockdown step domestically. We also still have booster jabs and under 18s to do which will further build population immunity and eventually get us to herd immunity.
    Hopefully, though not if Prof Dingwall and a few others have their way on Sage. This is the biggest concern now for me. Definitely needs doing with delta - and only fitter variants will arrive (Delta plus) from here on out. If we're to beat this damned thing we certainly need to vaccinate as low as the MHRA recommends.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    You can't have democracy without the rule of law.

    And the rule of law without respecting democracy is worthless too.
    You are sacrificing your childrens' childhood and your career for this quality of output?:
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Behind Malta. Not good enough :wink:
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953
    MaxPB said:

    Aslan said:

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    One thing that all of the iSage and other zero COVID types have yet to answer is what they would do if vaccines aren't enough reach herd immunity.

    If the vaccines don't work, then the answer is really very simple, a lot more people will get ill and some of them will die.

    There do seem to be people who have the idea that we can choose "no covid" as a population, that's really not an option, in the medium to long term essentially everybody will either get covid or the vaccine will protect them. Once you realase that "no covid" isn't viable it all becomes a lot simpler, vaccinating everybody we can is the only rational response.
    The answer is keep some level of restrictions to prevent exponential case growth while throwing money at better vaccines.

    The question for the anti-lockdown brigade is what the maximum number of deaths they would be willing to have to pretend we are back to normal.
    It depends on who is dying, really. If it's people who have refused the vaccine then it's of no consequence. They made their choice. If it's people 85+ with a million and one underlying conditions who are in death's waiting room then no amount of restrictions are going to make a difference. One of the reasons we have negative excess deaths at the moment is because COVID got a lot of low hanging fruit in waves one and two.

    The government has steadfastly refused to reveal information on vaccinated vs unvaccinated stats. I think it would be extremely revealing and smash the case for any continued measures.
    There’s a case for maintaining mask mandates (for now) on things like buses.

    Half a dozen unvaccinated passengers in... say... Newham on a bus can easily result in a very high viral load.

    Not such a big deal for passengers who get on and off, but a big deal for bus drivers, who will spend six or seven hours a day on a bus.

    And - one would suspect - the efficacy of vaccines drops with the viral load one receives.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    Pulpstar said:

    Behind Malta. Not good enough :wink:

    Take back the George Cross from the NHS.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Oh christ - a 5 point plan.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    @RochdalePioneers trigger - nightclubs!!!
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    eekeek Posts: 24,956
    Jason said:

    Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.

    Back in 1997 we didn't have social media, 24 hour news and instant asynchronous communications. At that point going into politics was something people can aspire to and imagine doing.

    Now I look at what MPs have to put up with and think its really just not worth the hassle.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    ridaligo said:

    FPT @Alphabet_Soup

    Sorry, but I can't let this response disappear into the ether of an old thread:

    "I agree with Nick... Susan Mitchie's political views are quite separate from her professional advice. But perhaps the government should have had the foresight to engage a neo-Nazi behavioural scientist as well, for the sake of balance."

    Well they have a Communist so why not? Oh, I get it ... Communists are so cute and cuddly, harmless really, and not at all unpalatable. If she can leave her political views at the door why not a neo-Nazi? Give me a break. You may think there is no comparison; I beg to differ.

    You don't think balance is important in government advisory bodies, particular those that are unelected and unaccountable, and those that literally hold the power of influence to remove basic human rights? Or is it OK as long as they are all from the bastion of the moderate centre that is academia? Jeez.

    Well, we debated communists and nazis a thread or two back. But yes, I literally don't care what the private views of experts are, so long as they are only contributing well-referenced expertise.

    Let me give an example. I was involved in an environmental campaign (conservation of a heritage site) and I discovered that the guy leading it was a current member of the British National Party (a dissident member leaked the membership list). He'd never expressed any racist or nationalist views in our discussions (though perhaps his nationalism had a shared root with his love of old buildings, who knows?), and he wasn't seeking elected office. I continued to work with him, and never even mentioned it. We completed the campaign, he went on to do other stuff, and so far as I know he never misused his experience or his association with me.

    You feel I should have witch-hunted him out? Just because someone has views I disagree with, I won't hold it against them in another context unless they misuse them. Otherwise it's McCarthyism/Lysenkoism, and wrong for the same reason as that was.

    And as for balance, well, communists are part of our spectrum of opinions too, as if you want a balanced spectrum you'd need to include them. But I'd really rather not bother with scientists' political opinions at all, and judge them by their work.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Pulpstar said:

    Oh christ - a 5 point plan.

    Even worse...
    Gavin Williamson will unveil our plans.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    "different regime for those fully vaccinated" for self-isolation.

    Hmm.
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    So those who banged on for days that the restrictions were never going to end back when step 4 was delayed.

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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,767
    Jason said:

    Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.

    Labour have few good MPs. They have some fantastically bad ones.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Unless I've missed any bear traps, it all seems entirely reasonable.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    I don’t get this nonsense about Sir Keir’s problem being he hasn’t been able to meet people in person. How many normal voters meet politicians? Or watch their speeches in person?? Very few

    They watch them on tv, and the public have had ample opportunity to do that
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Omnium said:

    Jason said:

    Back in 1997, Labour were preparing for a landslide election victory. Now compare that front bench to the current one. It's absolutely startling. And there's something just plain odd about Starmer. He appears to be a hybrid of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. At best he's a caretaker leader, and until Labour chance upon someone even vaguely attractive to the majority, they will remain in perpetual opposition.

    Labour have few good MPs. They have some fantastically bad ones.
    Talking about bad ones - I hear Abbott had another shocker last week
This discussion has been closed.