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Tories still rated as a 75% betting chance in Batley and Spen – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 25,502
    With Downing Street choosing not to engage with the Cummings latest, or confirm or deny the messages, the public are now in the position where the country still has a health secretary in charge who at one stage the PM called 'totally fucking hopeless' .
    https://twitter.com/Kate_M_Proctor/status/1405151425592758272
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,457

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    French govt can't be too worried about Delta variant of Covid. PM Jean Castex just announced that the 11pm curfew would end on 20 June, 10 days early. Requirement to wear masks outdoors will be lifted tomorrow, instead of 1 July. UK tightening up: France easing up. Who's right?

    https://twitter.com/john_lichfield/status/1405131992581251075?s=20

    Although we've never needed to wear masks outside, so its not exactly comparing apples and apples is it? This is one of the tricky bits. People keep saying we are still in lockdown, we are clearly NOT, but there are some restrictions with a disproportionate impact on some business, and an annoyance for some in their lives (masks for me).
    A law stating how many people you can have into your house is imo a lockdown.
    A fair point, but ask yourself how many arrests we have seen for breaking this law in the last two months (or indeed at all)?
    That is immaterial. Either a law is enforced or it should not be a law. Having a law which has the purpose of frightening people into behaving without the intention of actually enforcing it is simply wrong.
    So you think that we should all have speed limiters in all our vehicles then? Or should speed limits only apply where there is a camera?

    Law does have an important "nudge" element to it but I agree it is not a good thing that people should be getting used to only complying with the law when they feel like it.
    There is a more fundamental point here away from the lockdown argument.

    Having laws which can be enforced when the authorities feel like it is exactly the way less democratic countries behave. It gives power to the police that they do not deserve to have - the power to pick and choose who gets arrested and who does not for a particular crime. That leads to abuse of power and abuse of privilege. It is exactly what is wrong with many countries that have the "everything that is not explicitly legal is illegal" form of law.
    I agree.

    In Scotland there have been quite a number of prosecutions for those having house parties but usually, AIUI, only when they are causing a nuisance to neighbours. From a friend who is a Magistrate the other category tends to be when the police are called to a house for some other reason and notice it in passing. Most of this stuff is dealt with by fixed penalties so won't come near the court unless there are other charges involved.

    We really should have reverted to guidance after 21st June.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,073

    Andy_JS said:

    Stoke-on-Trent is a fantastic place to live. I recommend it to Roger.

    That has to be the most ridiculous thing ever posted in the history of the internet.

    Stoke is the Middlesbrough of the Midlands.
    Stoke is way worse than Boro in a whole heap of ways...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    One of my first posts on Covid, 15 months ago, noted that we were now in a period of government by Chief Medical Officer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,087

    Andy_JS said:

    TOPPING said:

    And speaking of laws, guidance, rules, etc.

    Yesterday I was in and out of stations and decided for a short amount of time not to wear my mask. There were plenty of marshalls and enforcement officers and so forth dotted around and signs saying you could be fined for not wearing a mask, etc.

    The govt says the following:

    "The police can take measures if members of the public do not comply with this law without a valid exemption and transport operators can deny access to their public transport services if a passenger is not wearing a face covering, or direct them to wear one or leave a service.

    If necessary the police and Transport for London (TfL) officers have enforcement powers, including issuing fines of £200 (reduced to £100 if paid within 14 days) for the first offence.

    Repeat offenders receiving fines on public transport or in an indoor setting will have their fines doubled at each offence.

    After the first offence there will be no discount. For example, receiving a second fine will amount to £400 and a third fine will be £800, up to a maximum value of £6,400."


    But the list of exemptions is such that you can decide not to wear one for a practicably unlimited number of reasons (eg. you will feel distress...). Equally, if you do decide not to wear one.

    "If you have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering:

    you do not routinely need to show any written evidence of this
    you do not need show an exemption card
    This means that you do not need to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about your reason for not wearing a face covering."


    So the government says by law you must wear a facemask, punishable by fines of up to £6,400, whereas you can decide you need not or don't want to wear one.

    On trains, you're supposed to wear a mask. But you can take it off if you're eating or drinking.

    Does the virus suddenly decide not to attack people on trains who are eating and drinking? 🤔
    Same issue I have about putting it on to go to the loo in a pub, but not when I'm sat down.
    I presume the idea is that when you are sat down, you are in a limited space, when you are moving about, you are interacting with a larger group.

    Risk reduction, rather than risk elimination.
    I learned from a barmaid the other day that the virus is very diligent at following one-way systems, hence why she insisted I walked counterclockwise around her bar to the gents when there was only me and her in the pub.
    Did she have a clipboard, and was she wearing a hi-viz vest?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 14,397
    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Do the Scots publish their week-on-week rate? That 11% bodes Wed on Wed rate bodes pretty well but I'd like to see the seven-day rise if possible...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Stoke-on-Trent is a fantastic place to live. I recommend it to Roger.

    That has to be the most ridiculous thing ever posted in the history of the internet.

    Stoke is the Middlesbrough of the Midlands.
    Stoke is way worse than Boro in a whole heap of ways...
    Reminds me of the immortal quote:

    'He has either never been to Umm Qasr or he's never been to Southampton. There's no beer, no prostitutes and people are shooting at us. It's more like Portsmouth.'
    A British soldiers reaction to a claim by Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon that the port of Umm Qasr is 'like the city of Southampton.'
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Stoke-on-Trent is a fantastic place to live. I recommend it to Roger.

    That has to be the most ridiculous thing ever posted in the history of the internet.

    Stoke is the Middlesbrough of the Midlands.
    Stoke is way worse than Boro in a whole heap of ways...
    The way I see it, Stoke has fewer cooling towers but I've never seen an EDL protest in Boro, but sadly have seen one in Stoke.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    One of my first posts on Covid, 15 months ago, noted that we were now in a period of government by Chief Medical Officer.
    I stand corrected.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    For what it's worth, after c. April last year I largely avoided PB due to the strongly imposed group view on lockdowns which made any real debate impossible.

    As expected, as we reach the end of the process it's becoming increasingly clear that there are advisors who will look back on this as the best time in the lives, and who don't want it to end. They'd hardly be human otherwise, but it's quite the contrast to the general insistance that everyone wanted this over as soon as possible which was expressed here last year.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944
    edited June 2021
    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Do the Scots publish their week-on-week rate? That 11% bodes Wed on Wed rate bodes pretty well but I'd like to see the seven-day rise if possible...
    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=nation&areaName=Scotland

    Latest day's data to be added on this site at 4pm will be 1,129.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101
    edited June 2021

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
  • pingping Posts: 2,802
    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    Not good
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    On topic, my friends in Batley and Spen say that the Heavy Woollen independents aren't breaking that much for the Tories, things like the PM's comments on the England players taking the knee haven't gone down well.

    Labour's choice of candidate has gone down well, the residual sympathy vote is still there.

    Yet there's still nervousness among Labour, the national polling and Galloway repeating his trick from 2012 has them worried.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,459
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Anecdotal from Leeds university: Indian variant like wildfire through undergraduate population incl some who have already had covid. Kent variant never touched them

    Sounds fishy to me. Most students will not have been at University (exams, taken remotely etc).
    It's from one who is.
    Wouldn't reinfection be a massive story?
    Like I said, anecdotal. Alleged victim is soon of friend I am currently having lunch with.
    You must be fun at dinner parties. Posting on PB during lunch?
    Lunch a deux. Checking in in temp absences of hostess

    Soon = son
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,459
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Anecdotal from Leeds university: Indian variant like wildfire through undergraduate population incl some who have already had covid. Kent variant never touched them

    Sounds fishy to me. Most students will not have been at University (exams, taken remotely etc).
    It's from one who is.
    Wouldn't reinfection be a massive story?
    Like I said, anecdotal. Alleged victim is soon of friend I am currently having lunch with.
    You must be fun at dinner parties. Posting on PB during lunch?
    Lunch a deux. Checking in in temp absences of hostess

    Soon = son
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    RobD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Anecdotal from Leeds university: Indian variant like wildfire through undergraduate population incl some who have already had covid. Kent variant never touched them

    Sounds fishy to me. Most students will not have been at University (exams, taken remotely etc).
    It's from one who is.
    Wouldn't reinfection be a massive story?
    Like I said, anecdotal. Alleged victim is soon of friend I am currently having lunch with.
    You must be fun at dinner parties. Posting on PB during lunch?
    That's nothing, you should see some of the things I was doing whilst writing PB threads.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    For what it's worth, after c. April last year I largely avoided PB due to the strongly imposed group view on lockdowns which made any real debate impossible.

    As expected, as we reach the end of the process it's becoming increasingly clear that there are advisors who will look back on this as the best time in the lives, and who don't want it to end. They'd hardly be human otherwise, but it's quite the contrast to the general insistance that everyone wanted this over as soon as possible which was expressed here last year.
    6 months ago on here, SAGE scientists were saints. Heroes. Their very urine samples were of national importance. The science was their god, and they were people with no human frailties or foibles to get in the way of advice of Olympian objectivity.

    Even slight criticism sparked an intense and multi-personed climb on. Poster after poster after poster.

    Now its all gone a bit f8cking quiet, hasn't it?

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,279
    Scott_xP said:

    With Downing Street choosing not to engage with the Cummings latest, or confirm or deny the messages, the public are now in the position where the country still has a health secretary in charge who at one stage the PM called 'totally fucking hopeless' .
    https://twitter.com/Kate_M_Proctor/status/1405151425592758272

    The Health Secretary is not always wrong.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    edited June 2021
    Those texts revealed by Dom Cummings are the amuse-bouche aren't they?

    The main course should be fun and the dessert an amusing cherry on the parfait.

    The question will it be Michelin starred quality stuff or a ghastly Hawaiian pizza.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,748
    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    As you believe that everything Boris says is a lie, Scott, presumably you are now convinced of the sagacity and diligence of Matt Hancock
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,055
    DavidL said:

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    BTW Cummings has dropped a bomb just before PMQs

    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/the-pm-on-hancock-totally-fucking

    Includes whatsapps from Boris calling Hancock useless.

    No it doesn't.

    The most revealing thing is Johnson's question on the ppe disaster "is this from tonight focus group and polls"

    Not "is PPE actually a disaster, but "do voters think it's a disaster"?
    There's a screenshot of Boris saying "It's Hancock - he has been hopeless".


    Even more damning, considering replacing shit Predator with awful Alien



    I actually read that as the PM saying give PPE responsibility to Gove, not sacking Hancock and replacing him with Gove.

    One of my main criticisms of the govt last spring was the sheer amount of responsibility left with Hancock whilst other more senior ministers had little to do. However bad Hancock is or was no-one could have done his job well, it was too much.

    It would have been the right thing to do to give it Gove (or someone else).
    Yes, the combination of Health and Social Care under Hunt seemed sensible at the time but in a pandemic Hancock's responsibilities were vast.

    Interesting that Gove is still Boris's go to "fixer".
    Well he doesn’t have much work to do in Lancaster any more!

    It’s actually a sensible idea to have a minister without portfolio, who can be drafted in to sort out the crisis of the day or run a project across departments.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,990
    edited June 2021

    On topic, my friends in Batley and Spen say that the Heavy Woollen independents aren't breaking that much for the Tories, things like the PM's comments on the England players taking the knee haven't gone down well.

    Labour's choice of candidate has gone down well, the residual sympathy vote is still there.

    Yet there's still nervousness among Labour, the national polling and Galloway repeating his trick from 2012 has them worried.

    There is a For Britain candidate and an English Democrats and UKIP candidate standing in Batley and Spen and ex Britain First Deputy Leader Jayda Fransen is running as well so plenty of choice for far right British nationalists to choose from, I think it is now more likely the Heavy Woollens will vote for them than the Tories if they vote at all. Remember their voters will see Boris as a wet blanket and even Farage as not hardline enough on immigration and wokeism.

    Today's Comres poll would actually see Labour increase its majority in Batley if correct
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    As you believe that everything Boris says is a lie, Scott, presumably you are now convinced of the sagacity and diligence of Matt Hancock
    This is big news, though. I thought people who worked together were always nice about each other the whole time.
  • pingping Posts: 2,802

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    It's not about a virus but about following orders from various bodies, incl an organisation with which the govt has long had a 'partnership'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9692209/Leaked-Step-4-Whitehall-document-hints-new-normal-July-19.html

    '4th Industrial Revolution' is also on the UK govt website. A sanitised term for something else. Digital IDs went through without proper consultation.

    Translation: UK becomes a totalitarian society.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,868

    Andy_JS said:

    The public don't seem to be interested in what Cummings has to say, probably because of the Barnard Castle incident.

    Exactly, its like Prince Andrew suddenly talking about Womens Rights, no one would be interested.
    Au contraire, I'd be right up for a Randy Andy analysis of third-wave feminism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,507
    I placed a bet on the Lib Dems for Chesham & Amersham at 7/1.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    For one thing we've told the 20-somethings for months now they're not at much risk and they all know their parents and grandparents are already vaccinated too.

    For another the 20-somethings have been getting vaccinated for weeks now. There's always been some getting vaccinated ahead of schedule but that can't happen now effectively. Since all over 18s have been able to get the jab for weeks now in many areas, there's nobody else to open it up to. The most eager over 18s or 20-somethings have already been jabbed.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,833
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    maaarsh said:

    BTW Cummings has dropped a bomb just before PMQs

    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/the-pm-on-hancock-totally-fucking

    Includes whatsapps from Boris calling Hancock useless.

    Wow. There's screens of material.

    He really really really hates Hancock doesn't he.

    "Totally fucking useless"
    This is seriously close to a breach of the Official Secrets Act, notwithstanding his protestations about having evidence demanded by the Committee. He hasn't so much burnt his bridges as incinerated them. Does he have no plans to work again?

    I have a lot of time for his analysis of the failings of Whitehall. I agree with him that we need better use of genuine experts and better information for our decision makers. I also agree that it is disappointing that so many of those decision makers are innumerate, ignorant, not very bright and apparently uninterested in learning.

    But this is disgraceful. It really is.
    It is not disgraceful at all. It is exactly what should be happening. When the Government is relying on outright lies to committees to protect their reputation after the massive fuck ups they have made it is a public duty to have this stuff out in the open.

    I hope Cummings has a lot more of this stuff and it all comes out. What is disgraceful is that it needs whistleblowing like this to get to the facts.
    I think, with respect, you are confusing 2 different kinds of disgrace. Of course it is a disgrace that Hancock in particular has been lying to the select committee. But it is also impossible to work with people if you have to worry that every IM or Whatsapp you send is being recorded for posterity. The Official Secrets Act is there to make sure that government can actually work.
    I have been assuming exactly this for the last 10 plus years - all the work emails, IM's etc are being recorded and are disclosable. Why anyone would think otherwise is beyond me. I have seen people make massive errors because they fail to work in this way, I have never used it to my advantage but I am sure other people would. Anything that is remotely sensitive should be dealt with by phone or in person. Its a stupid state of affairs but one that we have accidentally stumbled in to.
  • pingping Posts: 2,802
    C’mon Suomi!!!
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385
    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Its astonishing that Philip is blaming Boris Johnson for not standing up to the media and SAGE.

    If Boris had done that at any stage, if he HAD gone de Santis, PB would have had a giant tweeting canary, Thompson chief canary birther.

    Now its all Johnson's fault for not wanting to tough out Thompson's screeching.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,364

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Well, largely. Ultimately, it's the government who are responsible. It's the government who seem incapable of even the most rudimentary challenge to SAGE.
    But it does raise the question of how people who seem to want society to be very different than it actually is are allowed to rise to these positions of great influence.
    Is any vetting done of appointees to SAGE? Or has academia now been so captured by Marxists than there aren't any scientists who don't want to overthrow society?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Its astonishing that Philip is blaming Boris Johnson for not standing up to the media and SAGE.

    If Boris had done that at any stage, if he HAD gone de Santis, PB would have had a giant tweeting canary, Thompson chief canary birther.

    Now its all Johnson's fault for not wanting to tough out Thompson's screeching.

    That's bollocks. I've been against the restrictions since March and have been entirely consistent upon that. I've been calling for lockdown to be lifted ahead of schedule for more than three months now.

    Even last year philosophically I objected to lockdown and I said that too. What I objected to even more are lies, untruths, claims of false positives and other bullshit spread by the likes of you and certain others here.

    The problem we have now is that Covid Denying idiots have rather than standing up for liberalism and principle chose to salt the earth with bullshit and claims that were clearly false then but are true now so make you sound insane when you say them now.

    Its the difference between someone saying "its 29 degrees outside put on sunscreen" this week when it is that temperature and you saying the exact same thing six months ago when it was December.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,339
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,339
    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    They could have stopped with "dont plan to get into the detail" and then it could be re-used to describe the govt on a daily basis.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,941
    .

    gealbhan said:

    Keir Starmer really is bloody useless isn't he?

    Johnson screwed up this week kowtowing to nonsensical scientific "models" despite an absence of deaths and still he can't get the ball in the net.

    If Starmer can't best Boris this week of all weeks when is he ever going to do so again.

    Desperate spin Phil. Starmer was very good there.
    No desperation Johnson has lost my support this week so why would I be desperate for spin?
    Because you still love him really!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,087
    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944
    edited June 2021
    Strongest 1st doses UK wide reported on a wednesday since the end of March. 190,543 1st 235,695 2nd

    Augurs well for demand as we move into the final quintile of adults.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,838

    .

    gealbhan said:

    Keir Starmer really is bloody useless isn't he?

    Johnson screwed up this week kowtowing to nonsensical scientific "models" despite an absence of deaths and still he can't get the ball in the net.

    If Starmer can't best Boris this week of all weeks when is he ever going to do so again.

    Desperate spin Phil. Starmer was very good there.
    No desperation Johnson has lost my support this week so why would I be desperate for spin?
    Because you still love him really!
    Boris will be desolate. He has lost Crafty Cockney and his mate down the pub too.. who next...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,364

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    *cough* it wasn't JUST you, Contrarian.

    I always thought the measures imposed were far, far too stringent. But I did give sage the benefit of the doubt until last Autumn. I lost any grudging well-we'll-see attitude when they presented the graphs justifying the Autumn lockdown with modelled data outputs that were already well out of date and out of synch with reality.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,885
    edited June 2021
    The public are going to lose patience with Boris Johnson very quickly, but it feels like it might not happen for quite a while. Maybe next year sometime. Funny how you sometimes get these delayed reactions.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    Hopefully, but Welsh first doses are very close to grinding to a halt - only up 1.3% of population in the last week and lower today than last wednesday. But jut under 90% so a perfectly acceptable place to be slowing up.

    My point was just that current supply is adequate to the extremely low bar the government has set for itself, and they should be able to get through 18-25 in 3 weeks at the current rate, unless older people who have not bothered suddenly tune in to the process and book in. Such people clearly do exist as we're not going to hit 100%.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,457
    He is proving the correctness of his own thesis: that Judges have no greater insight nor do they have any special knowledge that gives their views on political matters greater weight than anyone else and it is therefore wrong that they assume those rights either by (ab)using Human Rights Law or anything else.

    He is entitled to his views and even to vote for them in the somewhat unlikely scenario that he finds a party who supports them. We are entitled to disagree or criticise. I think, in fairness, he is ok with that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,339
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
    I am not seeking to get into the rights and wrongs of lockdowns, that has been done to death.

    There will be supporters of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be opponents of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be supporters of lockdown 2020 who oppose lockdown 2021.

    You seem to be saying the third group's opinions are invalid somehow?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    DavidL said:

    He is proving the correctness of his own thesis: that Judges have no greater insight nor do they have any special knowledge that gives their views on political matters greater weight than anyone else and it is therefore wrong that they assume those rights either by (ab)using Human Rights Law or anything else.

    He is entitled to his views and even to vote for them in the somewhat unlikely scenario that he finds a party who supports them. We are entitled to disagree or criticise. I think, in fairness, he is ok with that.
    But he invoked Godwin.

    For that alone he deserves to be mocked.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    For one thing we've told the 20-somethings for months now they're not at much risk and they all know their parents and grandparents are already vaccinated too.

    For another the 20-somethings have been getting vaccinated for weeks now. There's always been some getting vaccinated ahead of schedule but that can't happen now effectively. Since all over 18s have been able to get the jab for weeks now in many areas, there's nobody else to open it up to. The most eager over 18s or 20-somethings have already been jabbed.
    As Dr Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA vaccines and a supporter of the principle) said recently, it breaks bio-ethics principles to jab people for whom the risk of death from vaccine exceeds the risk of death from COVID. Offering ice creams in return for jabs is distasteful. So is the UK use of psy-ops (i.e. most of SAGE) to persuade people to do something irreversible that does them more harm than good.

    Dr John Campbell has now done several talks on Ivermectin and its 99.99% non-use in this country. It's as if the entire NHS is corrupted and hospital doctors (salaried employeees) are threatened with the sack for speaking out, e.g. writing to the BMJ on these vaccines' side-effects. So they'll say what they're told to say to pay their mortgage. Mostly only retired docs say what they believe. A few GPs are resigning in disgust ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,087

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
    You are assuming what is true for one area, is true everywhere. Some areas are ahead - some behind.

    I was at a vaccination centre last week, for example, and they were running at capacity.

    If there was a large amount of vaccine just waiting, then there would be a step up in the various advertising campaigns, for example.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 26,984
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
    I don't think there is any contradiction between having supported lockdown in 2020 and thinking it has now gone on too long. Like you I knew that we would have a fight to get rid of laws after they had been enacted which was why I was in favour of no new laws but using the CCA. It is a terrible piece of legislation but since it was on the books they should have used it rather than passing even more laws and keeping the CCA in reserve.

    But I also now think this has gone on too long and we need to fight to get these laws revoked.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
    Yes but you're in the Northwest Phil, vaccinations have been pushed to your area more quickly than the general rollout due to being the epicentre of the delta surge.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,457
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    maaarsh said:

    BTW Cummings has dropped a bomb just before PMQs

    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/the-pm-on-hancock-totally-fucking

    Includes whatsapps from Boris calling Hancock useless.

    Wow. There's screens of material.

    He really really really hates Hancock doesn't he.

    "Totally fucking useless"
    This is seriously close to a breach of the Official Secrets Act, notwithstanding his protestations about having evidence demanded by the Committee. He hasn't so much burnt his bridges as incinerated them. Does he have no plans to work again?

    I have a lot of time for his analysis of the failings of Whitehall. I agree with him that we need better use of genuine experts and better information for our decision makers. I also agree that it is disappointing that so many of those decision makers are innumerate, ignorant, not very bright and apparently uninterested in learning.

    But this is disgraceful. It really is.
    It is not disgraceful at all. It is exactly what should be happening. When the Government is relying on outright lies to committees to protect their reputation after the massive fuck ups they have made it is a public duty to have this stuff out in the open.

    I hope Cummings has a lot more of this stuff and it all comes out. What is disgraceful is that it needs whistleblowing like this to get to the facts.
    I think, with respect, you are confusing 2 different kinds of disgrace. Of course it is a disgrace that Hancock in particular has been lying to the select committee. But it is also impossible to work with people if you have to worry that every IM or Whatsapp you send is being recorded for posterity. The Official Secrets Act is there to make sure that government can actually work.
    I have been assuming exactly this for the last 10 plus years - all the work emails, IM's etc are being recorded and are disclosable. Why anyone would think otherwise is beyond me. I have seen people make massive errors because they fail to work in this way, I have never used it to my advantage but I am sure other people would. Anything that is remotely sensitive should be dealt with by phone or in person. Its a stupid state of affairs but one that we have accidentally stumbled in to.
    It's going to be a nightmare for future historians. Firstly, the sheer volume and secondly, the odd lacunae.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,457

    DavidL said:

    He is proving the correctness of his own thesis: that Judges have no greater insight nor do they have any special knowledge that gives their views on political matters greater weight than anyone else and it is therefore wrong that they assume those rights either by (ab)using Human Rights Law or anything else.

    He is entitled to his views and even to vote for them in the somewhat unlikely scenario that he finds a party who supports them. We are entitled to disagree or criticise. I think, in fairness, he is ok with that.
    But he invoked Godwin.

    For that alone he deserves to be mocked.
    Fine, mock him. It's still a freeish country.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
    You are assuming what is true for one area, is true everywhere. Some areas are ahead - some behind.

    I was at a vaccination centre last week, for example, and they were running at capacity.

    If there was a large amount of vaccine just waiting, then there would be a step up in the various advertising campaigns, for example.
    You're right, I'm assuming that since I'm in the Northwest not far from the hotspots that we've received surge vaccinations behind the scenes, as I advocated for when this delta wave started. I'm guessing its just been done without much attention.

    But either way now we're starting to hit the wall of eligibility. When an area was done with 70s they could move onto 60s, when an area was done with 40s they could move onto 30s (as I got done, while nationally it was still 40s) . . . but there's nobody left to move onto now. Anyone 21+ can get an appointment nationwide not just locally. Anyone 18+ by the end of the week, not just locally.

    After that, until it gets opened to under 18s, the vaccination rate must inevitably slow down. Not because of supply, but because the keenest to get vaccinated will already be vaccinated and there's nobody else left to offer it to besides catching up on those who aren't keen.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,101

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
    I am not seeking to get into the rights and wrongs of lockdowns, that has been done to death.

    There will be supporters of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be opponents of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be supporters of lockdown 2020 who oppose lockdown 2021.

    You seem to be saying the third group's opinions are invalid somehow?
    The mechanism to achieve that third option was unprecedented restrictions of liberty. I am saying that it is a bit rich for those who applauded the government when they imposed such restrictions in March 2020 to now realise that they didn't want such restrictions a minute beyond their own red lines.

    It is the principle. Other peoples' red lines were, for example, the restrictions of liberty, whatever the reason.

    Once you allow the govt to behave like this you are along for the ride. The key is not to allow them to do this. But there was no one to speak up for such a constituency.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,459
    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    With Downing Street choosing not to engage with the Cummings latest, or confirm or deny the messages, the public are now in the position where the country still has a health secretary in charge who at one stage the PM called 'totally fucking hopeless' .
    https://twitter.com/Kate_M_Proctor/status/1405151425592758272

    The Health Secretary is not always wrong.
    Read it again
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    *cough* it wasn't JUST you, Contrarian.

    I always thought the measures imposed were far, far too stringent. But I did give sage the benefit of the doubt until last Autumn. I lost any grudging well-we'll-see attitude when they presented the graphs justifying the Autumn lockdown with modelled data outputs that were already well out of date and out of synch with reality.
    Yea Contrarian clearly wasn’t looking very closely if he thinks he was a “lone voice” last autumn. Even where people came to somewhat reluctantly except the case for further (re)tightening of restrictions over winter it was more a case of “despite” SAGE and their modelling etc, rather than because of it.

    A list of the stuff they presented just seemed downright dishonest and deliberately manipulated to justify courses of action. Even if those courses of action were justified to a lesser or greater extent.

    If people were holding back it was because it was difficult to criticise without being accused of being an anti-lockdown lunatic who wanted thousands of people to die unnecessarily.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,087
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    Hopefully, but Welsh first doses are very close to grinding to a halt - only up 1.3% of population in the last week and lower today than last wednesday. But jut under 90% so a perfectly acceptable place to be slowing up.

    My point was just that current supply is adequate to the extremely low bar the government has set for itself, and they should be able to get through 18-25 in 3 weeks at the current rate, unless older people who have not bothered suddenly tune in to the process and book in. Such people clearly do exist as we're not going to hit 100%.
    Are they planning to bring forward 2nds in Wales?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,459

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    For what it's worth, after c. April last year I largely avoided PB due to the strongly imposed group view on lockdowns which made any real debate impossible.

    As expected, as we reach the end of the process it's becoming increasingly clear that there are advisors who will look back on this as the best time in the lives, and who don't want it to end. They'd hardly be human otherwise, but it's quite the contrast to the general insistance that everyone wanted this over as soon as possible which was expressed here last year.
    6 months ago on here, SAGE scientists were saints. Heroes. Their very urine samples were of national importance. The science was their god, and they were people with no human frailties or foibles to get in the way of advice of Olympian objectivity.

    Even slight criticism sparked an intense and multi-personed climb on. Poster after poster after poster.

    Now its all gone a bit f8cking quiet, hasn't it?

    No. You were a twit then, and you're a twit now

    That the sorry of thing you were inviting?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
    Yes but you're in the Northwest Phil, vaccinations have been pushed to your area more quickly than the general rollout due to being the epicentre of the delta surge.
    Absolutely! Which is completely logical since this is where the virus is.

    But the point is that those here who are keenest on being vaccinated, already are. Nobody who is eager is still waiting. There's no new groups to open up to. They can't possibly expand eligibility any further than being eligible to everyone already.

    What's true of the Northwest will be true nationwide before the end of the week - and its probably true already in much of the nation since 21+ is the slowest pace now not the fastest.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,364

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
    I am not seeking to get into the rights and wrongs of lockdowns, that has been done to death.

    There will be supporters of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be opponents of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be supporters of lockdown 2020 who oppose lockdown 2021.

    You seem to be saying the third group's opinions are invalid somehow?
    I would have thought the third group would be bigger than the second, frankly.

    Everyone draws the line somewhere of whether or not this is a proportionate response. Not unreasonable that someone who deemed lockdown 2020 proportionate thinks lockdown 2021 disproportionate.

    Personally, while I didn't support lockdown 2020, I didn't feel particularly strongly in my opposition to it because frankly I had far too little information to draw a firm conclusion. For all I understood, this may have been a Spanish flu type situation or worse which may have called for some flexibility of principles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,990
    edited June 2021
    Morgan Stanley boss tells staff if they are going to restaurants again they can go to the office again.

    Plus he says if they want to still earn New York city rates they need to work in New York city not just from Florida or Colorado remotely and he expected all staff to be back working regularly in the office from September at the latest

    https://twitter.com/telebusiness/status/1404818313151234048?s=20
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    Hopefully, but Welsh first doses are very close to grinding to a halt - only up 1.3% of population in the last week and lower today than last wednesday. But jut under 90% so a perfectly acceptable place to be slowing up.

    My point was just that current supply is adequate to the extremely low bar the government has set for itself, and they should be able to get through 18-25 in 3 weeks at the current rate, unless older people who have not bothered suddenly tune in to the process and book in. Such people clearly do exist as we're not going to hit 100%.
    Are they planning to bring forward 2nds in Wales?
    Well they did 5.5% of the population for 2nd doses in the last week vs 3.8% for total UK so looks like they already are.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 30,688
    edited June 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    They could have stopped with "dont plan to get into the detail" and then it could be re-used to describe the govt on a daily basis.
    Ah yes, so thanks for the DM re our bet.

    It's a bit too kind of you, the one way settlement, so I think we should do £25 site funds either way - I win and you pay if nightclubs can open free of legal covid restrictions straight after the new magic date of July 19th. You win and I pay if this is not the case.

    I'll take a "like" as that being done.

    Cheers. :smile:

    @noneoftheabove
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,153

    Those texts revealed by Dom Cummings are the amuse-bouche aren't they?

    The main course should be fun and the dessert an amusing cherry on the parfait.

    The question will it be Michelin starred quality stuff or a ghastly Hawaiian pizza.

    What have we actually learned?

    BJ expressed his frustration at the slow rate of testing.

    MH's remarkable suggestion that there never was a PPE problem - tanks and Baghdad come to mind - is about to be taken apart.

    but people already thought that, didn't they?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    Hopefully, but Welsh first doses are very close to grinding to a halt - only up 1.3% of population in the last week and lower today than last wednesday. But jut under 90% so a perfectly acceptable place to be slowing up.

    My point was just that current supply is adequate to the extremely low bar the government has set for itself, and they should be able to get through 18-25 in 3 weeks at the current rate, unless older people who have not bothered suddenly tune in to the process and book in. Such people clearly do exist as we're not going to hit 100%.
    Are they planning to bring forward 2nds in Wales?
    Well they did 5.5% of the population for 2nd doses in the last week vs 3.8% for total UK so looks like they already are.
    Another reason why it only makes sense to use mRNA jabs for first doses: their second ones can be brought forwards. AZN seconds can't really be without compromising their efficacy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944
    edited June 2021

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    Hopefully, but Welsh first doses are very close to grinding to a halt - only up 1.3% of population in the last week and lower today than last wednesday. But jut under 90% so a perfectly acceptable place to be slowing up.

    My point was just that current supply is adequate to the extremely low bar the government has set for itself, and they should be able to get through 18-25 in 3 weeks at the current rate, unless older people who have not bothered suddenly tune in to the process and book in. Such people clearly do exist as we're not going to hit 100%.
    Are they planning to bring forward 2nds in Wales?
    14 days prior & today

    Wales 2nds - avg 20,190

    21,277
    26,251
    6,663
    41,531
    0
    22,011
    22,769
    21,093
    21,338
    12,145
    28,124
    27,340
    23,755
    19,792
    19,716

    Wales 1sts 77 days ago - avg 19,154

    13,473
    12,960
    13,167
    22,228
    25,463
    19,704
    17,214
    14,724
    15,064
    14,417
    26,939
    27,729
    23,946
    22,904
    17,385

    Wales has moved from a 79 day gap to a 77 day one so it might be starting to happen
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,339
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    Because 6 months ago they were being sensible, now they're not, and we're sentient beings who can tell the difference.

    Being an all or nothing extremist doesn't show you're sensible.
    It's the principle. Once you cede power to a group of people, no matter they are being sensible when you cede it, you don't get that power back.

    That has always been my concern about this situation. The government has taken unprecedented powers. Do we really think they will hand them all back? And even if they do, look at us. We have been cowed into submission whereby we have to post lookouts to see if the police will arrive when we have large family gatherings.

    A nation is much, much easier to govern if it is scared. Confucius realised that thousands of years ago and lo it has proved. But in Britain I thought we might be immune. Not so it appears.
    Yes and philosophically I've always had the same reservation but you have a keyword right in the second paragraph.

    SAGE haven't taken these powers. The CMO haven't taken these powers. The government has taken them - and Parliament let them.

    I don't blame Whitty and Vallance for lockdown continuing for four more weeks. I am unequivocal at who I hold responsible: Boris. He's failed us.

    Secondly the PMs who let him do this are to blame.

    SAGE aren't the issue. At some point Ministers need to say to SAGE if they're overstepping "thank you for your advice, we will take it under advisement" then decide something different.
    Oh yes on that you're absolutely right. It's the government. All along. But they were being cheered on by many on here for months and months for doing so.
    Should those of us who believe lockdown in 2020 was the right thing to do, not have supported it on in case the govt carried it on for too long in 2021 and beyond? That is quite a strange interpretation to take if I am understanding your intent correctly?
    I'm not 100% convinced any lockdown should have been enshrined in law. As @rcs1000 tells us repeatedly, people lock down themselves so the issue would have been the compensation scheme for, say, a pub that was legally allowed to open but which didn't have any customers because they were all self-locking down.

    Would people have ignored it? I'm sure they would have. Might casualties have been higher? Possibly. But everyone would have been informed of the risks. To restrict the liberties in such an extraordinary fashion was in my mind always questionable.
    I am not seeking to get into the rights and wrongs of lockdowns, that has been done to death.

    There will be supporters of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be opponents of both lockdown 2020 and lockdown 2021.
    There will be supporters of lockdown 2020 who oppose lockdown 2021.

    You seem to be saying the third group's opinions are invalid somehow?
    The mechanism to achieve that third option was unprecedented restrictions of liberty. I am saying that it is a bit rich for those who applauded the government when they imposed such restrictions in March 2020 to now realise that they didn't want such restrictions a minute beyond their own red lines.

    It is the principle. Other peoples' red lines were, for example, the restrictions of liberty, whatever the reason.

    Once you allow the govt to behave like this you are along for the ride. The key is not to allow them to do this. But there was no one to speak up for such a constituency.
    Politics needs to be a mix pragmatism as well as principles, not just either one.

    The pragmatism from the situation in 2020 outweighed the principles. We just needed to get through it and find what worked. It was not the time for making a stand against the govt but being (relatively) united.

    In a post vaccine world that is no longer the case, and both the principles and the pragmatic view favour life returning to normal now.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,339
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    They could have stopped with "dont plan to get into the detail" and then it could be re-used to describe the govt on a daily basis.
    Ah yes, so thanks for the DM re our bet.

    It's a bit too kind of you, the one way settlement, so I think we should do £25 site funds either way - I win and you pay if nightclubs can open free of legal covid restrictions straight after the new magic date of July 19th. You win and I pay if this is not the case.

    I'll take a "like" as that being done.

    Cheers. :smile:

    @noneoftheabove
    Good luck, a bet I shall be most delighted to lose!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,401
    HYUFD said:

    Morgan Stanley boss tells staff if they are going to restaurants again they can go to the office again.

    Plus he says if they want to still earn New York city rates they need to work in New York city and he expected all staff to be back working regularly in the office from September at the latest

    https://twitter.com/telebusiness/status/1404818313151234048?s=20

    This is what I feel like saying to anybody who claims they don’t “feel safe” working from the office. That if that is truly how they feel then they’d better not bloody be applying double standards in their wider social life.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,385
    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-f1-tyre-tricks-that-new-clampdown-will-stamp-out/6574186/

    Following post about the Pirelli Baku investigation - it's now pretty clear Red Bull were running tricks to lower tyre pressures after they'd been measured as meeting the minimum level. So they got what was coming to them and thankfully their driver wasn't hurt in the process.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I see the Lib Dems are calling for more immigration to areas like Oxfordshire to fill vacancies: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57494788?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&Lib Dem MP calls for Covid recovery visa to hire staff&2021-06-16T13:30:02.176Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2011d90e-6a7b-489f-8e3a-b45d9481a7f3&pinned_post_asset_id=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&pinned_post_type=share

    I trust that the Lib Dems in Oxfordshire are also calling for more construction in the local area to ensure that the people they want to come to the area have somewhere to live?

    You wouldn't want to encourage people to come live in an area but have nowhere to live surely now would you? 🤔
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,469
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    One of my first posts on Covid, 15 months ago, noted that we were now in a period of government by Chief Medical Officer.
    Yup, I've been banging on about rule by SAGE since the middle of lockdown 1. It's intolerable to have unelected scientists hand down laws as if they were like Moses telling the masses the 10 commandments.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 435
    alex_ said:

    This is what I feel like saying to anybody who claims they don’t “feel safe” working from the office. That if that is truly how they feel then they’d better not bloody be applying double standards in their wider social life.

    I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand one restaurant meal a week with a small group is going to be a noticeably lower-risk habit than spending 8 hours a day five days a week in an open-plan office with a hundred of your coworkers...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 18,885
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    The most well-known female writer from Nigeria comes out against cancel culture, describing it as obscene.

    https://www.chimamanda.com

    I should have mentioned that the writer is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, author of Half Of A Yellow Sun and Purple Hibiscus.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimamanda_Ngozi_Adichie
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    New: Downing Street does not deny the messages published by Dominic Cummings from Boris Johnson are genuine.

    Asked if the messages are real, PM's spox says: ‘I don’t plan to get into the detail of what has been published.'

    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1405150352438087683

    They could have stopped with "dont plan to get into the detail" and then it could be re-used to describe the govt on a daily basis.
    Ah yes, so thanks for the DM re our bet.

    It's a bit too kind of you, the one way settlement, so I think we should do £25 site funds either way - I win and you pay if nightclubs can open free of legal covid restrictions straight after the new magic date of July 19th. You win and I pay if this is not the case.

    I'll take a "like" as that being done.

    Cheers. :smile:

    @noneoftheabove
    Good luck, a bet I shall be most delighted to lose!
    I believe you're both London based, so you could pay @Kinabalu in person on a night out at Fabric.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,073

    I see the Lib Dems are calling for more immigration to areas like Oxfordshire to fill vacancies: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57494788?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&Lib Dem MP calls for Covid recovery visa to hire staff&2021-06-16T13:30:02.176Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2011d90e-6a7b-489f-8e3a-b45d9481a7f3&pinned_post_asset_id=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&pinned_post_type=share

    I trust that the Lib Dems in Oxfordshire are also calling for more construction in the local area to ensure that the people they want to come to the area have somewhere to live?

    You wouldn't want to encourage people to come live in an area but have nowhere to live surely now would you? 🤔

    Depends how many properties you own in the area?
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    Afternoon all. While out training my peas (which is taking up a lot of time this week - I've got about 50 plants and the biggest ones are growing 4 or 5 inches a day), I was wondering what should happen to a person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated, who subsequently dies of it.

    I suppose this is unlikelier to happen now that the government have (sensibly imv) got around to insisting that carers be vaxed, but I think still possible enough to be considered hypothetically (the provability of it being the obvious weak point).

    But.. hypothetically

    Should it be some sort of crime? Or should we just tut about it?

    What's really morally different about a vax refusing numpty wittingly taking the risk and killing someone like this, and an HIV positive person having unprotected sex?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,990

    I see the Lib Dems are calling for more immigration to areas like Oxfordshire to fill vacancies: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57494788?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&Lib Dem MP calls for Covid recovery visa to hire staff&2021-06-16T13:30:02.176Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2011d90e-6a7b-489f-8e3a-b45d9481a7f3&pinned_post_asset_id=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&pinned_post_type=share

    I trust that the Lib Dems in Oxfordshire are also calling for more construction in the local area to ensure that the people they want to come to the area have somewhere to live?

    You wouldn't want to encourage people to come live in an area but have nowhere to live surely now would you? 🤔

    Hence a lot of voters in the Home Counties voted for Brexit and vote Tory nationally to reduce immigration but vote LD locally to stop new housing
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484

    Those texts revealed by Dom Cummings are the amuse-bouche aren't they?

    The main course should be fun and the dessert an amusing cherry on the parfait.

    The question will it be Michelin starred quality stuff or a ghastly Hawaiian pizza.

    What have we actually learned?

    BJ expressed his frustration at the slow rate of testing.

    MH's remarkable suggestion that there never was a PPE problem - tanks and Baghdad come to mind - is about to be taken apart.

    but people already thought that, didn't they?
    Yeah, it is all priced in.

    Even an audio/video recording of let the bodies pile high won't have that much of an impact.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,787

    I see the Lib Dems are calling for more immigration to areas like Oxfordshire to fill vacancies: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57494788?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&Lib Dem MP calls for Covid recovery visa to hire staff&2021-06-16T13:30:02.176Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2011d90e-6a7b-489f-8e3a-b45d9481a7f3&pinned_post_asset_id=60c9fa491c4a6902ecab6bd2&pinned_post_type=share

    I trust that the Lib Dems in Oxfordshire are also calling for more construction in the local area to ensure that the people they want to come to the area have somewhere to live?

    You wouldn't want to encourage people to come live in an area but have nowhere to live surely now would you? 🤔

    I'm sure the Lib Dems would be very happy to encourage more building, but as I said in a previous post, building expensive estates with the cheapest house at least £300000 is not going to help immigrants or local younger people with accomodation. The brown field sites and disused factory and town centre sites are better in that they can be converted into starter homes and smaller houses and flats, thus allowing more local younger people and immigrant workers find a place to live.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,107
    I note the LibDem odds in C&A are into single figures.
    Have taken profits on Betfair Exch. so all green.

    Thanks, Mike !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944

    Afternoon all. While out training my peas (which is taking up a lot of time this week - I've got about 50 plants and the biggest ones are growing 4 or 5 inches a day), I was wondering what should happen to a person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated, who subsequently dies of it.

    I suppose this is unlikelier to happen now that the government have (sensibly imv) got around to insisting that carers be vaxed, but I think still possible enough to be considered hypothetically (the provability of it being the obvious weak point).

    But.. hypothetically

    Should it be some sort of crime? Or should we just tut about it?

    What's really morally different about a vax refusing numpty wittingly taking the risk and killing someone like this, and an HIV positive person having unprotected sex?

    person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated

    Only truly likely in health and social care settings hence today's announcement regarding carers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    Bugger, I was really looking forward to going back here this summer.

    The renowned Manchester restaurant backed by Pep Guardiola has had to close its fine-dining concept for the summer, after Brexit has triggered a massive hospitality staffing crisis.

    Tast's director says that the restaurant's staff were at risk of 'burning out' trying to make up the shortfall in workers, leaving bosses to make the 'impossible' decision to temporarily close Enxaneta.

    The fine-dining restaurant space is on the top floor of Tast on King Street and has been tipped for a Michelin star since it opened in 2019.

    Sandra Martorell, director of the popular business, said that Tast has always tried to bring a taste of Barcelona to Manchester, but that Brexit is making it very difficult to bring employees over from Spain.

    Many of the restaurant's workforce went home to be with family during the pandemic, and it's now too complicated for many to return.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink-news/manchester-restaurant-backed-pep-guardiola-20828929
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944

    Bugger, I was really looking forward to going back here this summer.

    The renowned Manchester restaurant backed by Pep Guardiola has had to close its fine-dining concept for the summer, after Brexit has triggered a massive hospitality staffing crisis.

    Tast's director says that the restaurant's staff were at risk of 'burning out' trying to make up the shortfall in workers, leaving bosses to make the 'impossible' decision to temporarily close Enxaneta.

    The fine-dining restaurant space is on the top floor of Tast on King Street and has been tipped for a Michelin star since it opened in 2019.

    Sandra Martorell, director of the popular business, said that Tast has always tried to bring a taste of Barcelona to Manchester, but that Brexit is making it very difficult to bring employees over from Spain.

    Many of the restaurant's workforce went home to be with family during the pandemic, and it's now too complicated for many to return.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink-news/manchester-restaurant-backed-pep-guardiola-20828929

    They'll have to up the wages they're offering.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 103,484
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Bugger, I was really looking forward to going back here this summer.

    The renowned Manchester restaurant backed by Pep Guardiola has had to close its fine-dining concept for the summer, after Brexit has triggered a massive hospitality staffing crisis.

    Tast's director says that the restaurant's staff were at risk of 'burning out' trying to make up the shortfall in workers, leaving bosses to make the 'impossible' decision to temporarily close Enxaneta.

    The fine-dining restaurant space is on the top floor of Tast on King Street and has been tipped for a Michelin star since it opened in 2019.

    Sandra Martorell, director of the popular business, said that Tast has always tried to bring a taste of Barcelona to Manchester, but that Brexit is making it very difficult to bring employees over from Spain.

    Many of the restaurant's workforce went home to be with family during the pandemic, and it's now too complicated for many to return.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink-news/manchester-restaurant-backed-pep-guardiola-20828929

    They'll have to up the wages they're offering.
    Yeah, it is frustrating as most UK workers don't know how to make this Spanish food.

    It really is lovely.

    But makes me wonder, if this is happening in Manchester, what must it be like in London?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,469

    Pulpstar said:

    Bugger, I was really looking forward to going back here this summer.

    The renowned Manchester restaurant backed by Pep Guardiola has had to close its fine-dining concept for the summer, after Brexit has triggered a massive hospitality staffing crisis.

    Tast's director says that the restaurant's staff were at risk of 'burning out' trying to make up the shortfall in workers, leaving bosses to make the 'impossible' decision to temporarily close Enxaneta.

    The fine-dining restaurant space is on the top floor of Tast on King Street and has been tipped for a Michelin star since it opened in 2019.

    Sandra Martorell, director of the popular business, said that Tast has always tried to bring a taste of Barcelona to Manchester, but that Brexit is making it very difficult to bring employees over from Spain.

    Many of the restaurant's workforce went home to be with family during the pandemic, and it's now too complicated for many to return.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink-news/manchester-restaurant-backed-pep-guardiola-20828929

    They'll have to up the wages they're offering.
    Yeah, it is frustrating as most UK workers don't know how to make this Spanish food.

    It really is lovely.

    But makes me wonder, if this is happening in Manchester, what must it be like in London?
    20 years of wage inflation in about 3 months.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944
    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all. While out training my peas (which is taking up a lot of time this week - I've got about 50 plants and the biggest ones are growing 4 or 5 inches a day), I was wondering what should happen to a person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated, who subsequently dies of it.

    I suppose this is unlikelier to happen now that the government have (sensibly imv) got around to insisting that carers be vaxed, but I think still possible enough to be considered hypothetically (the provability of it being the obvious weak point).

    But.. hypothetically

    Should it be some sort of crime? Or should we just tut about it?

    What's really morally different about a vax refusing numpty wittingly taking the risk and killing someone like this, and an HIV positive person having unprotected sex?

    person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated

    Only truly likely in health and social care settings hence today's announcement regarding carers.
    The first group that springs to mind as potentially unable to be vaccinated are perhaps sadly those suffering from severe dementia. Even vaccinated the very frail may not produce a robust enough immune response to combat the virus - should this mean the entirity of society is locked down to prevent contagion ?
    No, but it does impose a duty of care on staff to get vaccinated as an extra line of defence for those in care.
  • borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    edited June 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all. While out training my peas (which is taking up a lot of time this week - I've got about 50 plants and the biggest ones are growing 4 or 5 inches a day), I was wondering what should happen to a person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated, who subsequently dies of it.

    I suppose this is unlikelier to happen now that the government have (sensibly imv) got around to insisting that carers be vaxed, but I think still possible enough to be considered hypothetically (the provability of it being the obvious weak point).

    But.. hypothetically

    Should it be some sort of crime? Or should we just tut about it?

    What's really morally different about a vax refusing numpty wittingly taking the risk and killing someone like this, and an HIV positive person having unprotected sex?

    person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated

    Only truly likely in health and social care settings hence today's announcement regarding carers.
    Sure, as I pretty much said in the next bit!

    But it's still possible, though probably near impossible to prove.

    Might, though, even the mere proposal of its consideration as a form of manslaughter in criminal law, persuade a few of the selfish numpties to get vaxed?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 16,584

    maaarsh said:

    ping said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England 154,647 1st 175,703 2nd

    The average gap moves up to 80 days. Rather than bringing jabs forward, some people are binning off their second !

    On the plus side we're over 79% of adults for firsts and 45% of the whole pop is fully vaxxed.

    The vaccine rollout is done. Now we're catching up with stragglers and waiting for second doses to be ready to go. Yet another reason we shouldn't be extending lockdown.

    Despite already being vaccinated I got yet another text today advising me that Pfizer is available at a walk-in clinic near me for anyone over 18 "no appointment necessary". Been getting these texts from the NHS almost daily lately. They're not finding people to vaccinate anymore, so why should we still be locked down?
    I don’t understand why we aren’t having large numbers of first doses for 20-somethings.

    Worrying.
    First doses are all Pfizer or Moderna, so they're not going to get up above 1.5m a week. Even at that rate they're covering 3 years of age cohort a week so it doesn't make much difference unless we see a bigger demand in the group who simply haven't bothered.
    I haven't seen an evidence that people aren't bothering. Wales will be going above 90% of adults, fairly soon, for example.

    The supply of vaccinations is limited.
    This is the text I got earlier today from "NHS-NoReply"

    Pfizer FIRST DOSE vaccinations at [redacted] today for 18 & over. Walk-in, 9am-5pm.

    I got a similar one yesterday, explicitly saying that time "Walk-in, no appointment needed" though its implicit in today's.

    Lots of people I know are getting the same texts, presumably because they're sending them to everyone in the area. I don't know whether others on this site are getting them or not? If the NHS is sending begging texts to people and can't get people to walk in then why would you think that supply is the issue instead of demand?

    If people won't walk in to a vaccine centre that doesn't need appointments then there's little more that can be done.

    PS the first text I got saying anyone over 18 was back on the 25th May, so that's nearly four weeks now anyone 18+ could get Pfizer here. Four weeks later, its stragglers being caught up on.
    You talk about unwilling recipients but note that it's a same-day deal. There'll be plenty working who won't even have seen the invitation, let alone being able to take time off work at the drop of a hat, and arrange childcare (or elderly care) cover.

    Like me when I got the call.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    Scottish cases numbers now out and up 11% on last Wednesday, following Wales numbers down on last week.

    Considering GB wide the numbers have been basically flat for 7 days, the early indications are no big increase today either. Excellent news for all except SAGE.

    Funny the way everybody on here talks about SAGE now.

    6 months ago, it was just me.
    One of my first posts on Covid, 15 months ago, noted that we were now in a period of government by Chief Medical Officer.
    Yup, I've been banging on about rule by SAGE since the middle of lockdown 1. It's intolerable to have unelected scientists hand down laws as if they were like Moses telling the masses the 10 commandments.
    I agree they have had far too much sway particularly given the refusal to look at how they are using modelling.

    But on the other hand Parliament has remained sovereign. There has been nothing to stop MPs not backing the renewal of covid laws.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,944

    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all. While out training my peas (which is taking up a lot of time this week - I've got about 50 plants and the biggest ones are growing 4 or 5 inches a day), I was wondering what should happen to a person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated, who subsequently dies of it.

    I suppose this is unlikelier to happen now that the government have (sensibly imv) got around to insisting that carers be vaxed, but I think still possible enough to be considered hypothetically (the provability of it being the obvious weak point).

    But.. hypothetically

    Should it be some sort of crime? Or should we just tut about it?

    What's really morally different about a vax refusing numpty wittingly taking the risk and killing someone like this, and an HIV positive person having unprotected sex?

    person who has refused the offer of vaccines, then unwittingly contracts covid, then provably though accidentally infects a person unable to get vaccinated

    Only truly likely in health and social care settings hence today's announcement regarding carers.
    Sure, as I pretty much said in the next bit!

    But it's still possible, though probably near impossible to prove.

    Might, though, even the mere proposal of its consideration as a form of manslaughter in criminal law, persuade of few of the selfish numpties to get vaxed?
    Much as I think antivaxxers are numpties the difficulty of proving this is going to be crazily high so from that perspective alone it doesn't need a new law. If you spat in someone's face whilst knowingly carrying Covid I'd hope it'd be a (very) aggravating factor in a potential assault charge.
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