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Yes, sadly Ernie a shadow of his former days of glory.Scrapheap_as_was said:Ernie Els = Ed Miliband
On topic.
Why no UKIP or even Greenies on that PO chart? And don't tell me they forgot.
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So Taffys, you would retain the BT presumably? Think it's a good policy?
On balance, I guess the answer is yes, but I have read some unhappy stories about disabled people. If they had excluded the registered disabled, it would be a hell yes. The trouble is 'disability' covers a multitude of conditions.0 -
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/us_restrictions/media/2014_0214_04-29_FINAL_FDC_NOTAM4-7667_UKRAINE_SFAR.pdfhucks67 said:
Don't think it works that way. The routes are given to the pilots all the way along the route. They just put in the relevant flight path code given to them and auto pilot does the work. The plane is on a flight corridor. If you checked flight24radar, I suspect that you will see numerous other aircraft on the same route today.RodCrosby said:Apparently, pilots were notified 3 months ago not to fly over this area....
Bloke on Sky essentially implied that Third World type countries were obviously ignoring it for financial reasons...0 -
There'll be a NOTAM then? Got a link?RodCrosby said:Apparently, pilots were notified 3 months ago not to fly over this area....
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True or fake?
Lloyd BlankFine (@Lloyds_Casino)
17/07/2014 17:09
Unbelievable: passenger posted just before takeoff: "if it dissapears, this is what it looks like". @zerohedge pic.twitter.com/ew0GWcZHKf-1 -
Anymore than you on "no discussion of developing global events"?BobaFett said:What gives you the right to set the agenda?
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More Kremlinology (Bobafett, avert your eyes).
ITAR-TASS has chosen the last few minutes to release a long article on advances in Russian missile defence technology and the Kremlin's plans to deploy what they are calling an "anti-ballistic control arc along its border".
It contains this paragraph:
Voronezh-M is a unique radar station with a huge potential to build up combat capabilities which became another development in resolving strategic tasks which the Supreme Commander-in-Chief had set, Designer-General of the new radar station and the Russian domestic missile attack warning system Sergey Boyev said. It plays a key role in the missile attack warning system.
This radar station can detect, track down and classify modern and promising aerospace attack weapons and will operate for information support to resolve the tasks of deterrence of missile strikes on Russia and higher effectiveness of retaliatory actions of Russian armed forces. Jointly with space control satellites it can detect launches of strategic ballistic missiles, medium-and short-range missiles, as well as cruise missiles and different aircrafts starting from strategic bombers to fighters. Give targeting orders on these targets to decision-making posts.
Now why would the Russians release this information at this time?0 -
Labour poster tries to regulate what is said and whenCarlottaVance said:
Anymore than you on "no discussion of developing global events"?BobaFett said:What gives you the right to set the agenda?
Ukip poster believes in freedom of speech and freedom to go elsewhere if offended0 -
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O/T - Talking of tim (as some were earlier), I've just had an e-mail exchange with him: he hasn't changed, still the same sweet sugar dumpling whom I miss desperately here. But he'll pay up on his bets in 2015 of that I'm sure (as of course will I should disaster befall).0
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And look how well things have developed in the Middle East since...CarlottaVance said:
A triumph for Miliband - peace is breaking out all over the region. Oh, what? It isn't? It is getting worse? Really? Oh.0 -
A. APPLICABILITY.RodCrosby said:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/us_restrictions/media/2014_0214_04-29_FINAL_FDC_NOTAM4-7667_UKRAINE_SFAR.pdfhucks67 said:
Don't think it works that way. The routes are given to the pilots all the way along the route. They just put in the relevant flight path code given to them and auto pilot does the work. The plane is on a flight corridor. If you checked flight24radar, I suspect that you will see numerous other aircraft on the same route today.RodCrosby said:Apparently, pilots were notified 3 months ago not to fly over this area....
Bloke on Sky essentially implied that Third World type countries were obviously ignoring it for financial reasons...
THIS SPECIAL FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATION (SFAR) APPLIES TO THE FOLLOWING PERSONS:........
3) ALL OPERATORS OF U.S. REGISTERED CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.
I doubt many US carriers route over Ukraine in any case, that said, in the past MAS did have a bad name for carrying low fuel loads into LHR....0 -
Can't you tell him to stop sulking and just come back to kisses and flowers from all?JohnO said:O/T - Talking of tim (as some were earlier), I've just had an e-mail exchange with him: he hasn't changed, still the same sweet sugar dumpling whom I miss desperately here. But he'll pay up on his bets in 2015 of that I'm sure (as of course will I should disaster befall).
I have this fear of tim's grievance assuming Hillsborough proportions.
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Russia 24 video seemingly showing two major fires on the ground a significant distance apart...0
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An unbelievably crass and stupid comment.AveryLP said:
Can't you tell him to stop sulking and just come back to kisses and flowers from all?JohnO said:O/T - Talking of tim (as some were earlier), I've just had an e-mail exchange with him: he hasn't changed, still the same sweet sugar dumpling whom I miss desperately here. But he'll pay up on his bets in 2015 of that I'm sure (as of course will I should disaster befall).
I have this fear of tim's grievance assuming Hillsborough proportions.0 -
As Toby Young put it "How to lose friends and Alienate people" - The whole Russia/Ukraine situation will be on everyone's radar now. Putin is in serious trouble if there's any hint of a Russian involvement, and imperilled even if there isn't.
The Ukrainian adventures have gone from a scout-camp to something that really matters. Rich Russians fly in planes - quite often over Ukraine.0 -
Oh shit. My employer is an oil major headquartered in NL and we have a huge finance service centre in KL. Horrible feeling that colleagues will have been on that flight. Very sad.0
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ITAR-TASS are now most definitely finger pointing:
MOSCOW, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s armed forces dispatched the Buk anti-aircraft missile system battalion to the area of the city of Donetsk on Wednesday, a well-informed source said referring to the data recording system.
Another battalion of the same weapons is said to be in the process of embarkation in the city of Kharkiv, northwest of Donetsk, the source said adding that the aircraft at an altitude of over 10,000 meters could be shot down only with the weapons of the S-300 or Buk (Beech) missile systems.
In the meantime, militias of the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk have said they do not possess armament systems of this class.
Militias of the self-proclaimed republics in Ukraine's east are not armed with the Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, the press service of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic said in comments on the Ukrainian authorities' statements about a possible involvement of the Donetsk and Luhansk militias to the downing of the Malaysian plane.
The release is posted below a photograph of the BUK anti-aircraft system with a 'helpful' explanatory caption:
The aircraft at an altitude of over 10,000 meters could be shot down only with the weapons of the S-300 or Buk (Beech) missile systems0 -
If the Russians or their proxies shot down a passenger plane it's time for full on sanctions on all their exports. It would be pathetic if European powers don't react to this.0
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If we had intervened in what was then Syria, we would have only made a calamitous situation which we don't understand far worse. Despite the exaggerated claims of politicians and the intelligence services*, the events in what is now the Islamic State pose a minimal threat to the peace, order and good government of the United Kingdom. We had no right or justification to intervene, and were right not to do so. That having been said, Miliband's behaviour was disgraceful. He was unwilling to oppose intervention in principle, but couldn't carry his party's support for an intervention he had previously supported, and so put forward an absurd compromise motion which allowed him to preserve the unity of the Labour Party, but did not differ in substance from HMG's motion. Neither motion having been carried, intervention was ruled out by the government. He acted out of base partisan interest, not principle.oxfordsimon said:And look how well things have developed in the Middle East since...
A triumph for Miliband - peace is breaking out all over the region. Oh, what? It isn't? It is getting worse? Really? Oh.
*Dearlove notwithstanding.
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No I wasn't, I just said if you don't like the topic of conversation on a message board I think it's best to do something else rather than try to stop others talking about it. Nothing personal at allBobaFett said:@Isam
You were complaining about me.
Ie I have no interest in Scottish Indy debate, and when it is the topic of discussion, I just don't comment. I wouldn't be so self important to think that my mentioning that I think it's boring would matter
Anyway, off to LONDON, no less, now. Is the weather nice there too?
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And that, for me, just serves as further proof of why he is completely unfit to lead our nation.Life_ina_market_town said:
If we had intervened in what was then Syria, we would have only made a calamitous situation which we don't understand far worse. Despite the exaggerated claims of politicians and the intelligence services*, the events in what is now the Islamic State pose a minimal threat to the peace, order and good government of the United Kingdom. We had no right or justification to intervene, and were right not to do so. That having been said, Miliband's behaviour was disgraceful. He was unwilling to oppose intervention in principle, but couldn't carry his party's support for an intervention he had previously supported, and so put forward an absurd compromise motion which allowed him to preserve the unity of the Labour Party, but did not differ in substance from HMG's motion. Neither motion having been carried, intervention was ruled out by the government. He acted out of base partisan interest, not principle.oxfordsimon said:And look how well things have developed in the Middle East since...
A triumph for Miliband - peace is breaking out all over the region. Oh, what? It isn't? It is getting worse? Really? Oh.
*Dearlove notwithstanding.0 -
Thank you, Hugh.Hugh said:
An unbelievably crass and stupid comment.AveryLP said:
Can't you tell him to stop sulking and just come back to kisses and flowers from all?JohnO said:O/T - Talking of tim (as some were earlier), I've just had an e-mail exchange with him: he hasn't changed, still the same sweet sugar dumpling whom I miss desperately here. But he'll pay up on his bets in 2015 of that I'm sure (as of course will I should disaster befall).
I have this fear of tim's grievance assuming Hillsborough proportions.
It is Lympe-Pole policy to encourage constructive criticism. All feedback from fellow PBers, whether positive or negative, is warmly welcomed and submitted to our Communication Evaluation Task Force. The CEFT has taken careful note of your comments and placed them on file for future reference.0 -
(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
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I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.0 -
Patchy evidence points the finger at the Ukranians. Let us wait and see before ascribing blame.Omnium said:As Toby Young put it "How to lose friends and Alienate people" - The whole Russia/Ukraine situation will be on everyone's radar now. Putin is in serious trouble if there's any hint of a Russian involvement, and imperilled even if there isn't.
The Ukrainian adventures have gone from a scout-camp to something that really matters. Rich Russians fly in planes - quite often over Ukraine.0 -
First official Putin response:surbiton said:
Patchy evidence points the finger at the Ukranians. Let us wait and see before ascribing blame.Omnium said:As Toby Young put it "How to lose friends and Alienate people" - The whole Russia/Ukraine situation will be on everyone's radar now. Putin is in serious trouble if there's any hint of a Russian involvement, and imperilled even if there isn't.
The Ukrainian adventures have gone from a scout-camp to something that really matters. Rich Russians fly in planes - quite often over Ukraine.
MOSCOW, July 17./ITAR-TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin tells Obama of necessity to immediately and unconditionally cease fire in southeastern Ukraine - Kremlin.
Putin tells Obama that US [? should this be Russia] will contribute to launch of peace negotiating process in Ukraine
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Who is suggesting that the public at large is currently interested in politics or a GE just under a year away?! We have had fixed term Parliaments at Holyrood for fifteen years now, so I certainly have some experience of this! I was suggesting that the last Parliament was no more a normal Westminster one due to such long term GE uncertainty and the subsequent media coverage than this now fixed term Parliament.Life_ina_market_town said:0
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Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
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If confirmed it will be the world's worst air disaster caused by shootdown, narrowly exceeding the death toll of the Iranian airbus, shot down by the Yanks in 1988...0
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Steamy. Too hot on this Number 52 bus on which I am sitting.isam said:
No I wasn't, I just said if you don't like the topic of conversation on a message board I think it's best to do something else rather than try to stop others talking about it. Nothing personal at allBobaFett said:@Isam
You were complaining about me.
Ie I have no interest in Scottish Indy debate, and when it is the topic of discussion, I just don't comment. I wouldn't be so self important to think that my mentioning that I think it's boring would matter
Anyway, off to LONDON, no less, now. Is the weather nice there too?
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Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
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And there was the shooting down of Korean Airlines KAL007 by a Soviet fighter plane in 1983 with the loss of 269 lives.RodCrosby said:If confirmed it will be the world's worst air disaster caused by shootdown, narrowly exceeding the death toll of the Iranian airbus, shot down by the Yanks in 1988...
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Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.0 -
There were reports of a BUK missile launch system, near one of the disputed Ukrainian towns earlier today. Whether or not the identification was correct is anyone's guess, but if it was, it certainly has the capability.0
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This is the second Malaysian airliner to go down,any connection?
Also is it common to fly over these areas where there are missiles flying about,albeit mainly low tech low altitude missiles.
I suspect all the airlines will now re route and cause chaos.
It is hard to imagine the sheer scale of the disaster and loss of life,I will have a sleepless night tonight.0 -
The reports on the BBC are that it was shot down using a Buk missile system. It has a maximum altitude of 25km so the plane would be well within the range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system
It has been used by both Russian and Ukranian forces so it is not inconceivable that it could have been either captured by separatists from Ukraine or provided by the Russians.0 -
It's a possibility but not probable.Grandiose said:
Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.
The Russians are very careful about who gets their hands on the sophisticated stuff.
At this very early stage all signs are pointing to a Ukrainian military unit making a mistake.
But then early signs can be very wrong.
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MH 17 joins KAL 007 and IAF 655 in the history books.
Its over, the russians have lost the war, they were losing it for quite some time now but today's events are a symbolic defeat.
And here are the reasons:
The doctorine of Slow War is a failure, its supposed to offer diplomatic and political benefits but militarily is a sure defeat, you are allowed to use only a fraction of your ground forces and no air force, while the enemy can use everything they can, as a result the russians are outnumbered 10-20 times and suffer 10 times the loses of the ukranians, plus the risk of a major accident like this one renders it useless.
Also contributing to the russian defeat is the mistake they did with their armament programs, the have only 550 tanks compared to 2700 that Ukraine has, though all modern T-90 compared with the 1960's-70's junk of the ukrainians, because they stopped production of the T-90 in 2011 and they retired the 4500 T-80 in back January and no new tanks are produced because they selved the T-95(they sold the design to the chinese though) in 2012 in favour of the combined fighter tank design which will be ready only in 2020.
Russia lost the war for the same reasons described by Arthur C. Clarke in 1951 in "Superiority":
Overdesign, underproduction and wrong war strategy.0 -
Anybody know if this is genuine?
http://gdb.rferl.org/5AB5FBC3-A24A-4584-9C75-98E2B18E5A38_w640_r1_s.jpg0 -
I can't imagine why a Ukrainian unit would make a mistake like this. As far as I know the separatists have no air power and so I don't see why the Ukranians would even be considering firing on aircraft.AveryLP said:
It's a possibility but not probable.Grandiose said:
Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.
The Russians are very careful about who gets their hands on the sophisticated stuff.
At this very early stage all signs are pointing to a Ukrainian military unit making a mistake.
But then early signs can be very wrong.0 -
RichardRichard_Tyndall said:The reports on the BBC are that it was shot down using a Buk missile system. It has a maximum altitude of 25km so the plane would be well within the range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system
It has been used by both Russian and Ukranian forces so it is not inconceivable that it could have been either captured by separatists from Ukraine or provided by the Russians.
I think a capture and misuse of a BUK system by separatists is highly unlikely, although it may be in the interests of various parties to promote this as a possibility.
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According to local paper Frank Dobson is expected to announced retirment at next Holbon & St Pancrass CLP meeting on Tuesday.
http://www.camdennewjournal.com/news/2014/jul/long-serving-mp-frank-dobson-prepares-stand-down0 -
For those who can't read Cyrillic - it is apparently a claim by Strelkov, on his VKontakte site, shortly after the crash, that his forces had shot down an AN-26 military transport plane in that area. But a "screenshot" is no guarantee of authenticity.MyBurningEars said:Anybody know if this is genuine?
http://gdb.rferl.org/5AB5FBC3-A24A-4584-9C75-98E2B18E5A38_w640_r1_s.jpg
The RFEL in the domain name is of course Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and can not be described as possessing the utmost neutrality.
I will await y0kel's comment, since he's probably the only one of us who isn't a merely amateur analyst.0 -
He's old (74 years) and its a safe seat, so its normal.AndreaParma_82 said:According to local paper Frank Dobson is expected to announced retirment at next Holbon & St Pancrass CLP meeting on Tuesday.
http://www.camdennewjournal.com/news/2014/jul/long-serving-mp-frank-dobson-prepares-stand-down0 -
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from but as of the end of 2013 the Russians had 15,500 tanks including MBTs, Tank Detroyers and Light tanks.Speedy said:MH 17 joins KAL 007 and IAF 655 in the history books.
Its over, the russians have lost the war, they were losing it for quite some time now but today's events are a symbolic defeat.
And here are the reasons:
The doctorine of Slow War is a failure, its supposed to offer diplomatic and political benefits but militarily is a sure defeat, you are allowed to use only a fraction of your ground forces and no air force, while the enemy can use everything they can, as a result the russians are outnumbered 10-20 times and suffer 10 times the loses of the ukranians, plus the risk of a major accident like this one renders it useless.
Also contributing to the russian defeat is the mistake they did with their armament programs, the have only 550 tanks compared to 2700 that Ukraine has, though all modern T-90 compared with the 1960's-70's junk of the ukrainians, because they stopped production of the T-90 in 2011 and they retired the 4500 T-80 in back January and no new tanks are produced because they selved the T-95(they sold the design to the chinese though) in 2012 in favour of the combined fighter tank design which will be ready only in 2020.
Russia lost the war for the same reasons described by Arthur C. Clarke in 1951 in "Superiority":
Overdesign, underproduction and wrong war strategy.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp0 -
In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.0
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In service tanks only, not those in reserve (743 T-90, 550 operational).Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from but as of the end of 2013 the Russians had 15,500 tanks including MBTs, Tank Detroyers and Light tanks.Speedy said:MH 17 joins KAL 007 and IAF 655 in the history books.
Its over, the russians have lost the war, they were losing it for quite some time now but today's events are a symbolic defeat.
And here are the reasons:
The doctorine of Slow War is a failure, its supposed to offer diplomatic and political benefits but militarily is a sure defeat, you are allowed to use only a fraction of your ground forces and no air force, while the enemy can use everything they can, as a result the russians are outnumbered 10-20 times and suffer 10 times the loses of the ukranians, plus the risk of a major accident like this one renders it useless.
Also contributing to the russian defeat is the mistake they did with their armament programs, the have only 550 tanks compared to 2700 that Ukraine has, though all modern T-90 compared with the 1960's-70's junk of the ukrainians, because they stopped production of the T-90 in 2011 and they retired the 4500 T-80 in back January and no new tanks are produced because they selved the T-95(they sold the design to the chinese though) in 2012 in favour of the combined fighter tank design which will be ready only in 2020.
Russia lost the war for the same reasons described by Arthur C. Clarke in 1951 in "Superiority":
Overdesign, underproduction and wrong war strategy.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp0 -
MBEMyBurningEars said:
For those who can't read Cyrillic - it is apparently a claim by Strelkov, on his VKontakte site, shortly after the crash, that his forces had shot down an AN-26 military transport plane in that area. But a "screenshot" is no guarantee of authenticity.MyBurningEars said:Anybody know if this is genuine?
http://gdb.rferl.org/5AB5FBC3-A24A-4584-9C75-98E2B18E5A38_w640_r1_s.jpg
The RFEL in the domain name is of course Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and can not be described as possessing the utmost neutrality.
I will await y0kel's comment, since he's probably the only one of us who isn't a merely amateur analyst.
Downthread you will see an ITAR-TASS release referring to claims by rebels that they had downed an Antonov (actually now claims that two Antonovs have been shot down in separate incidents) .
No official news source is yet connecting the AN-26 claim with that of the Malaysian passenger jet.
Antonovs are (I believe) the world's largest flying military cargo jets, so mistaking a commercial airliner for an Antonov is plausible.
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The russians should have declared east ukraine a no-flight zone ages ago but "slow war" prevented them from doing anything publicly.
Its their fault for not conducting the war within the rules of war.0 -
Putin.
The general panic as to why he's not responsible merely illustrates that he is.0 -
My understanding is that the T80s are not all withdrawn yet and they are only withdrawing them as they are replacing them with upgraded T72s so that the total number of operational tanks stays almost the same.Speedy said:
In service tanks only, not those in reserve (743 T-90, 550 operational).Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from but as of the end of 2013 the Russians had 15,500 tanks including MBTs, Tank Detroyers and Light tanks.Speedy said:MH 17 joins KAL 007 and IAF 655 in the history books.
Its over, the russians have lost the war, they were losing it for quite some time now but today's events are a symbolic defeat.
And here are the reasons:
The doctorine of Slow War is a failure, its supposed to offer diplomatic and political benefits but militarily is a sure defeat, you are allowed to use only a fraction of your ground forces and no air force, while the enemy can use everything they can, as a result the russians are outnumbered 10-20 times and suffer 10 times the loses of the ukranians, plus the risk of a major accident like this one renders it useless.
Also contributing to the russian defeat is the mistake they did with their armament programs, the have only 550 tanks compared to 2700 that Ukraine has, though all modern T-90 compared with the 1960's-70's junk of the ukrainians, because they stopped production of the T-90 in 2011 and they retired the 4500 T-80 in back January and no new tanks are produced because they selved the T-95(they sold the design to the chinese though) in 2012 in favour of the combined fighter tank design which will be ready only in 2020.
Russia lost the war for the same reasons described by Arthur C. Clarke in 1951 in "Superiority":
Overdesign, underproduction and wrong war strategy.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
I think the idea that Russia is in a worse position militarily than Ukraine is simply not true.0 -
This is not how it appears to me.Omnium said:Putin.
The general panic as to why he's not responsible merely illustrates that he is.
The Kremlinological signs are wrong.
This isn't a matter of pointing a finger at the side you believe to be the general aggressor in the Ukrainian-Russian conflict. It is a dispassionate view of how the ex-Soviet state apparatus (on both sides of the border) handles such issues in public.
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"Several airlines, including Lufthansa and Air France, say they will now avoid eastern Ukrainian airspace"
It seems extraordinary that commercial airlines were flying over this zone in the first place, given that we know that surface-to-air missiles have been used here over the past few weeks.0 -
The "big" Antonov you are thinking of is probably the AN-22 which is gigantic (about 58 metres long, about 64 metre wingspan).AveryLP said:
MBEMyBurningEars said:
For those who can't read Cyrillic - it is apparently a claim by Strelkov, on his VKontakte site, shortly after the crash, that his forces had shot down an AN-26 military transport plane in that area. But a "screenshot" is no guarantee of authenticity.MyBurningEars said:Anybody know if this is genuine?
http://gdb.rferl.org/5AB5FBC3-A24A-4584-9C75-98E2B18E5A38_w640_r1_s.jpg
The RFEL in the domain name is of course Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and can not be described as possessing the utmost neutrality.
I will await y0kel's comment, since he's probably the only one of us who isn't a merely amateur analyst.
Downthread you will see an ITAR-TASS release referring to claims by rebels that they had downed an Antonov (actually now claims that two Antonovs have been shot down in separate incidents) .
No official news source is yet connecting the AN-26 claim with that of the Malaysian passenger jet.
Antonovs are (I believe) the world's largest flying military cargo jets, so mistaking a commercial airliner for an Antonov is plausible.
The AN-26 is smaller, about 24 metres long with a wingspan about 29 metres. Compared to a Boeing 777-200ER with length 63.7 metres and wingspan 60.9 metres).0 -
How do you know? What makes you so sure it was shot down by Russia?Speedy said:
Not in a war zone.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
Not only that, if it's a declared war zone, no civil airplane should be flying in it's space.
0 -
They are only in a worse position for the next 6 years.Richard_Tyndall said:
My understanding is that the T80s are not all withdrawn yet and they are only withdrawing them as they are replacing them with upgraded T72s so that the total number of operational tanks stays almost the same.Speedy said:
In service tanks only, not those in reserve (743 T-90, 550 operational).Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from but as of the end of 2013 the Russians had 15,500 tanks including MBTs, Tank Detroyers and Light tanks.Speedy said:MH 17 joins KAL 007 and IAF 655 in the history books.
Its over, the russians have lost the war, they were losing it for quite some time now but today's events are a symbolic defeat.
And here are the reasons:
The doctorine of Slow War is a failure, its supposed to offer diplomatic and political benefits but militarily is a sure defeat, you are allowed to use only a fraction of your ground forces and no air force, while the enemy can use everything they can, as a result the russians are outnumbered 10-20 times and suffer 10 times the loses of the ukranians, plus the risk of a major accident like this one renders it useless.
Also contributing to the russian defeat is the mistake they did with their armament programs, the have only 550 tanks compared to 2700 that Ukraine has, though all modern T-90 compared with the 1960's-70's junk of the ukrainians, because they stopped production of the T-90 in 2011 and they retired the 4500 T-80 in back January and no new tanks are produced because they selved the T-95(they sold the design to the chinese though) in 2012 in favour of the combined fighter tank design which will be ready only in 2020.
Russia lost the war for the same reasons described by Arthur C. Clarke in 1951 in "Superiority":
Overdesign, underproduction and wrong war strategy.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
I think the idea that Russia is in a worse position militarily than Ukraine is simply not true.0 -
Ukrainian Interior Ministry claiming 23 Americans were aboard MH17...0
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A blast from the past:
Nikolaus von Twickel @niktwick 33m
13 years ago, a Ukrainian rocket downed a Russian liner over the Black Sea. Kiev accepted responsibility after 8 days
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html …0 -
I think it is a bit more than a hooha,I am deeply upset by the loss of life,and trivialising it by calling it a "hoohah", nuff said.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
0 -
I was expecting a diversion as they did with crimea but they didn't, not even when the airports were closed.Richard_Nabavi said:"Several airlines, including Lufthansa and Air France, say they will now avoid eastern Ukrainian airspace"
It seems extraordinary that airlines were flying over this zone, given that we know that surface-to-air missiles have been used here over the past few weeks.
Its all because they saved fuel by using the main air corridor for flights between europe and asia, commercial airlines took the risk and since nobody declared a no-flight zone over the battlefront no one took notice.0 -
Biggest of all is the one-off An-225 Mriya ("Dream")MyBurningEars said:
The "big" Antonov you are thinking of is probably the AN-22 which is gigantic (about 58 metres long, about 64 metre wingspan).AveryLP said:
MBEMyBurningEars said:
For those who can't read Cyrillic - it is apparently a claim by Strelkov, on his VKontakte site, shortly after the crash, that his forces had shot down an AN-26 military transport plane in that area. But a "screenshot" is no guarantee of authenticity.MyBurningEars said:Anybody know if this is genuine?
http://gdb.rferl.org/5AB5FBC3-A24A-4584-9C75-98E2B18E5A38_w640_r1_s.jpg
The RFEL in the domain name is of course Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and can not be described as possessing the utmost neutrality.
I will await y0kel's comment, since he's probably the only one of us who isn't a merely amateur analyst.
Downthread you will see an ITAR-TASS release referring to claims by rebels that they had downed an Antonov (actually now claims that two Antonovs have been shot down in separate incidents) .
No official news source is yet connecting the AN-26 claim with that of the Malaysian passenger jet.
Antonovs are (I believe) the world's largest flying military cargo jets, so mistaking a commercial airliner for an Antonov is plausible.
The AN-26 is smaller, about 24 metres long with a wingspan about 29 metres. Compared to a Boeing 777-200ER with length 63.7 metres and wingspan 60.9 metres).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225_Mriya0 -
I thought the pro-Russian militias had acquired anti-aircraft guns just a couple of weeks ago?Richard_Tyndall said:
I can't imagine why a Ukrainian unit would make a mistake like this. As far as I know the separatists have no air power and so I don't see why the Ukranians would even be considering firing on aircraft.AveryLP said:
It's a possibility but not probable.Grandiose said:
Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.
The Russians are very careful about who gets their hands on the sophisticated stuff.
At this very early stage all signs are pointing to a Ukrainian military unit making a mistake.
But then early signs can be very wrong.0 -
It's not a declared war zone. Some people like to support the Ruskies because they are in dispute with the EU.MikeK said:
How do you know? What makes you so sure it was shot down by Russia?Speedy said:
Not in a war zone.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
Not only that, if it's a declared war zone, no civil airplane should be flying in it's space.
0 -
Everything is possible, Smarmy.Smarmeron said:@AveryLP
The logical thought is that both the Russian and Ukrainian governments have access to air traffic control information...the rebels don't, and if they had the equipment, they may have been firing semi blind.
At this stage all we can try to do is to speculate with applied reason and experience.
I would be extremely surprised if the Russian military or political authorities would allow any of 'their' paramilitary forces in Eastern Ukraine to gain control of a sophisticated missile defence system.
You may be right but I would consider it a long shot.
0 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerolinee_Itavia_Flight_870MikeK said:A blast from the past:
Nikolaus von Twickel @niktwick 33m
13 years ago, a Ukrainian rocket downed a Russian liner over the Black Sea. Kiev accepted responsibility after 8 days
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html …
The french still say they had nothing to do with it.0 -
You are the one trivialising this incident in order to get a political point across.jayfdee said:
I think it is a bit more than a hooha,I am deeply upset by the loss of life,and trivialising it by calling it a "hoohah", nuff said.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
0 -
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.
0 -
[bad taste]MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
So that's where MH370 ended up!
[end bad taste]0 -
Sky News aviation expert just advised that there is a NOTAM (Notice to airmen) in place for this region - a corridor in which advised not to fly. Not compulsory but nearly all airlines comply. But for some reason the MA pilot decided not to and took the shorter / cheaper routing. Oh dear.
I read this as an issue of pilot mental stability / reliability / judgment of both recent MA disasters as a contributory factor (or only factor of the first one). Not good for MA.0 -
Oh look, the government is breaking its own data laws:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/07/16/uk_data_watchdog_breached_data_law_says_uk_data_watchdog/0 -
What bullshit. The polls of Eastern Ukraine have shown large majorities want to remain part of Ukraine. Probably because they're Ukrainian.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.0 -
You can't conduct an opinion poll in a war zone.Socrates said:
What bullshit. The polls of Eastern Ukraine have shown large majorities want to remain part of Ukraine. Probably because they're Ukrainian.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.0 -
Some scarily stupid posts about.perdix said:
It's not a declared war zone. Some people like to support the Ruskies because they are in dispute with the EU.MikeK said:
How do you know? What makes you so sure it was shot down by Russia?Speedy said:
Not in a war zone.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
Not only that, if it's a declared war zone, no civil airplane should be flying in it's space.
0 -
And what if it were the Ukrainians?Socrates said:If the Russians or their proxies shot down a passenger plane it's time for full on sanctions on all their exports. It would be pathetic if European powers don't react to this.
Either way an end to military activities should be the course.
Always interesting to see if the media spins this, the internet provides an alternative sources but depressing how easy it is to generate 'war hysteria' still.
0 -
I would have thought the Poles live in Western Ukraine?Socrates said:
What bullshit. The polls of Eastern Ukraine have shown large majorities want to remain part of Ukraine. Probably because they're Ukrainian.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.0 -
That solves one mystery.Patrick said:Sky News aviation expert just advised that there is a NOTAM (Notice to airmen) in place for this region - a corridor in which advised not to fly. Not compulsory but nearly all airlines comply. But for some reason the MA pilot decided not to and took the shorter / cheaper routing. Oh dear.
I read this as an issue of pilot mental stability / reliability / judgment of both recent MA disasters as a contributory factor (or only factor of the first one). Not good for MA.0 -
Russian-speakers are a majority in Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts.Speedy said:
You can't conduct an opinion poll in a war zone.Socrates said:
What bullshit. The polls of Eastern Ukraine have shown large majorities want to remain part of Ukraine. Probably because they're Ukrainian.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.0 -
No politics,just a bad taste use of words. How on earth has my comment anything to do with politics?MikeK said:
You are the one trivialising this incident in order to get a political point across.jayfdee said:
I think it is a bit more than a hooha,I am deeply upset by the loss of life,and trivialising it by calling it a "hoohah", nuff said.MikeK said:In all the hooha over the Malaysian plane, has anyone stopped to think that the plane simply crashed. Malaysian planes have an an unfortunate habit of disappearing and crashing.
0 -
Andrey Davydov @FarEasterner 12m
Spanish air controller who works in Kiev said 2 Ukraine military jets were following #MH17 minutes before aircrash pic.twitter.com/myXtec0kBa0 -
They're not the Poles, Comrade, They are the Don't Knows.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I would have thought the Poles live in Western Ukraine?Socrates said:
What bullshit. The polls of Eastern Ukraine have shown large majorities want to remain part of Ukraine. Probably because they're Ukrainian.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.
And with that, off for a few hours.
I shall leave Sir Roderick to solve the mystery.
0 -
French Foreign ministry:- 4 French on board...
Sky: MH17 was flying in a 'restricted' area all Western airlines avoid...0 -
Reuters Graphics @ReutersGraphics · 2m
Updated map shows the intended route of #MH17 and crash site in Eastern Ukraine http://link.reuters.com/cav42w
It deviated a lot.0 -
Indeed. An an end to military activities and the dismantling of all non-state militias.FalseFlag said:
And what if it were the Ukrainians?Socrates said:If the Russians or their proxies shot down a passenger plane it's time for full on sanctions on all their exports. It would be pathetic if European powers don't react to this.
Either way an end to military activities should be the course.
Always interesting to see if the media spins this, the internet provides an alternative sources but depressing how easy it is to generate 'war hysteria' still.0 -
sean thomas knox @thomasknox 22m
To lose one airline in mysterious probably violent circumstances may be considered a misfortune, to lose two.... etc #MalaysiaAirlines0 -
Indeed. I may not have been clear but I was saying that I do not believe the Ukrainian military would be responsible. Personally it seems to me that the only likely culprit is the separatists.Socrates said:
I thought the pro-Russian militias had acquired anti-aircraft guns just a couple of weeks ago?Richard_Tyndall said:
I can't imagine why a Ukrainian unit would make a mistake like this. As far as I know the separatists have no air power and so I don't see why the Ukranians would even be considering firing on aircraft.AveryLP said:
It's a possibility but not probable.Grandiose said:
Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.
The Russians are very careful about who gets their hands on the sophisticated stuff.
At this very early stage all signs are pointing to a Ukrainian military unit making a mistake.
But then early signs can be very wrong.0 -
If it was Ukraine then it probably wasn't a mistake.Richard_Tyndall said:
I can't imagine why a Ukrainian unit would make a mistake like this. As far as I know the separatists have no air power and so I don't see why the Ukranians would even be considering firing on aircraft.AveryLP said:
It's a possibility but not probable.Grandiose said:
Some suggestion that former government tech is in the hands of the rebels - including the possibility of fighter jets from the Crimea(?)AveryLP said:
Doubtful, Patrick.Patrick said:I recall that about a month ago the Russian backed separatists had got hold of some ground-to-air missiles and brought down a Ukraine air force Antonov transport killing 20 or so Ukrainian servicemen.
Based on no info at all, it is my guess that they have tried to pull off a repeat performance and, tragically, picked the wrong target. Will be very, very bad for Russia if I'm right.
The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the target range of separatist militia capabilities. It could only have been downed by a fighter plane or sophisticated air defence system only available to government militaries.
Always the possibility of Russian tech in rebels hands as well.
The Russians are very careful about who gets their hands on the sophisticated stuff.
At this very early stage all signs are pointing to a Ukrainian military unit making a mistake.
But then early signs can be very wrong.
0 -
You mean like Hamas then.Socrates said:
Indeed. An an end to military activities and the dismantling of all non-state militias.FalseFlag said:
And what if it were the Ukrainians?Socrates said:If the Russians or their proxies shot down a passenger plane it's time for full on sanctions on all their exports. It would be pathetic if European powers don't react to this.
Either way an end to military activities should be the course.
Always interesting to see if the media spins this, the internet provides an alternative sources but depressing how easy it is to generate 'war hysteria' still.
0 -
No! I merely place at Putin's doorstep that which is Putin's. I completely agree that the motivation and actions of the rebels are beyond his control, but their arming isn't.FalseFlag said:
Again the Western tendency to ascribe God like abilities to Putin. The rebels in Eastern Ukraine are their own creation, reflecting the will of the people of that region. If the US and hardliners had not ended the European-Russian ceasefire discussions then this might not have happened.Omnium said:
Of course they didn't - if it was shot down it was probably a Russian-manufactured missile. Neither of these things really matter though. What does matter is that entirely innocent people seem to have been killed just for flying through Ukrainian airspace. Putin's little scuff becomes a terrible thing if it cuts Russia off.taffys said:(Of course there is a chance that Putin will use this to justify all sorts of nonsense - I rather dismiss that)
Personally I can't see how Russia gains from shooting down a defenceless commercial airliner deliberately.
I await more details but I hope neither sides seek to make capital out of a tragic event.
I'd look rather askance at any neighbour that had sufficient hardware in his garage that could shoot down jet airliners, as I'm sure would you. Putin has fed the fire and this is the result.
0 -
A UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) spokesman said: "The Ukrainian authorities are responsible for managing their airspace and the UK or other countries cannot enforce airspace restrictions in the area.
"However, the CAA has previously issued advice to UK airlines on operating in this area and following this incident, Eurocontrol (the European air traffic control body) has issued advice to airlines to plan routes that avoid the area."
ITV News has reported, according to sources at Malaysia Airlines, there were nine British passengers on board.
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2014/07/17/airliner-shot-down-over-ukraine/0 -
19:28: Flight recorders have been found at the crash site, Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the pro-Russian rebels, has told Interfax news agency. Earlier reports quoted rebels as saying they intended to send the flight recorders to Moscow for checking.
BBC Blog0
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