After the Portugal decision the front pages are entirely predictable – politicalbetting.com

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

Foxy said:

I am interested in what is planned for June 21st. Are people really expecting everything to end in terms of Social Distancing and masks etc? Certainly there are no plans for my hospital to do this. I just expect the final restrictions on businesses to end.

MaxPB said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

Did she have Pfizer? That's within the range of expected reactions if she did.

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

So the media and Mike Smithson having spent the last year complaining that the government is too slow to take unpopular action are now complaining that the government is too fast to take unpopular action.

The government was too slow to apply restrictions a year ago, and are too slow to remove restrictions right now.

It's classic cognitive dissonance, and being slow to assimilate new information.

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

RochdalePioneers said:

The crux of the problem that @Cocky_cockney raises is that this government is functionally incompetent. I have been banging the drum for ages that "we won, we're popular, it doesn't matter" isn't good enough. Lies, corruption, incompetence, strategy based on newspaper headlines - this isn't how good government is done.

Since the start it has been blindingly obvious this clowncar government don't know how to communicate. Guidance that is contradicted one minister on the radio to the next that contradicts the law. A new 5 stage plan launched at 3.5. Regional tiers supposedly all the same but the rules are different in each place affected.

So it isn't a surprise that we're here. If you are double vaccinated then why do you need to isolate for 10 days and take 3 tests to come back from countries who have less pox than we do? Its illogical and stupid. They declared that 6 people in a choir couldn't meet covid secure in a venue to sing, but bands can play with the audience singing along. Who makes this shit up?

Fundamentally they do it and they get away with it because @Philip_Thompson and @Cocky_cockney etc rightly tear chunks of the government but vote for it anyway. They think you are stupid and tret you accordingly.

Philip_Thompson said:

another_richard said:

Mirror poll reveals 81% back isolation for everyone on UK return

Looks like the government may have made a popular decision.

The 'front pages' are no more Britain than Twitter is.

The 'front pages' and response if 21 June does not go ahead is going to be far, far more severe.

DavidL said:

MaxPB said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

Did she have Pfizer? That's within the range of expected reactions if she did.

No AZ both times. Its still relatively normal but I sort of expected the response to the first dose to be the larger of the two.

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

alex_ said:

another_richard said:

Mirror poll reveals 81% back isolation for everyone on UK return

Looks like the government may have made a popular decision.

100% of people say to the Government to make a bl**dy decision and stick with it, not introduce rules which will inevitably if trusted result of n costing people 100s or 1000s of pounds due to following their advice.

Dura_Ace said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

So the government is establishing that it is being "extremely cautious" (Jenrick, R4 today) in putting Portugal on the amber list.

Although he couldn't confirm one case of the "Nepal" mutation they are stopping travel to Portugal "just in case". Not anywhere else currently on the green list, just Portugal. Why not everywhere else?

As such, no action is now off the table.

If the nation (and PB especially) is ready to accept "extreme caution" and "just in case" then it will welcome with open arms an extension to lockdown on June 21st and much more besides.

Why? Because ratings. So we are getting what we want. Rejoice.

With any other government if they twatted about with people's lives and with business and with jobs there would be Hell To Pay. This lot? I absolutely won't put it past them doing the full unlock on time and in full, spinning that "we had to fight really hard to do this for you" and blame the scientists for being worrysome botherers.

At which point Cocky and Philip and the red wall show their displeasure by voting Tory.

tbf who else do you vote for? Reform? The Daily Mail?

There is always Galloway's exciting new Strasserite project.

Sandpit said:

LOL at those front pages, a totally out of touch media who think that the most important thing in a global pandemic is spending a week on a beach somewhere. How’s about removing domestic restrictions first, so the vaccination success can be built on by getting the economy moving?

Cookie said:

ydoethur said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sandpit said:

LOL at those front pages, a totally out of touch media who think that the most important thing in a global pandemic is spending a week on a beach somewhere. How’s about removing domestic restrictions first, so the vaccination success can be built on by getting the economy moving?

If this was out of the blue then you would have a point. It isn't though. The clowncar seem obsessed about the desire of the proles to go to Benidorm and for the right sort to be able to do global business trip unimpeded. Last summer we had Ester McVile embarassing herself extolling the virtues of "staycations" https://twitter.com/EstherMcVey1/status/1289185662483087361 - that won't do for this year hence the clowncar telling the papers that people will be allowed to travel because thats what the Boris vaccine is for.

In reality foreign travel should remain heavily restricted. Business or family only, no jollies. In practice thats what it is, but with endless shite about BOOK NOW because they don't want to bail out the travel industry any more.

They really missed the ball. A pandemic plus Brexit - what a glorious opportunity to have pushed the virtues of holidaying in Britain. Which would have meant all the tough border restrictions the clowncar seem incapable of doing in practice despite the "take back control" guff and that psychotic Patel doing her "arrest a darky" photoshoot. But it could have been done.

Cummings was right wasn't he? Functional incompetence.

Well, he should certainly know what that looks like...

I do keep banging on about this - but a staycation - inasmuch as we can assign definite meaning to horrible portmanteau neologisms - is a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOME, not a holiday in your own country. A holiday in your own country is just a holiday, same as millions upon millions of Brits take each year.
There is a little bit of snobbery about the idea that a holiday doesn't count unless its abroad. But I suspect a holiday in the UK is the norm. At least, it seems to be in middle-class-parentland.

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

alex_ said:

TOPPING said:

So the government is establishing that it is being "extremely cautious" (Jenrick, R4 today) in putting Portugal on the amber list.

Although he couldn't confirm one case of the "Nepal" mutation they are stopping travel to Portugal "just in case". Not anywhere else currently on the green list, just Portugal. Why not everywhere else?

As such, no action is now off the table.

If the nation (and PB especially) is ready to accept "extreme caution" and "just in case" then it will welcome with open arms an extension to lockdown on June 21st and much more besides.

Why? Because ratings. So we are getting what we want. Rejoice.

Yep. Anyone who thinks continuing with plans for June 21st is consistent with acting with “extreme caution” isn’t thinking straight. I wouldn’t be surprised if all the comment from Johnson down about “nothing in the data to prevent June 21st” is a deliberate strategy to suddenly notice something in the data on June 13th...

“And with the greatest of reluctance...”

Although you would have thought Johnson of all people would have got this breaking up with partners down to a tee.

I think all the evidence is that his break ups are famously acrimonious. The next one could be real popcorn time.

Indeed yes. Which one gets the house? The incumbent Prime Minister, or Boris Johnson?

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

It’s Frost’s protocol that he is now saying won’t work. That’s either gross incompetence or gross deceit.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think you should allow for the distinct possibility that it's both.

You could bet your shirt on it being both.

I'll cheerfully bet the one I'm wearing now, because it's old, tatty and covered in paint (a skirting board needed doing).

rcs1000 said:

The conversations on this board are surreal.

In Israel, CV19 is completely defeated. Despite reopening to (vaccinated) tourists and their children, total cases are a dozen a day. They are maybe six weeks ahead of us in terms of vaccination numbers.

In the US, which is still well behind the UK in terms of doses administered per person, and which is flattening out, there is not the slightest suggestion restrictions will continue. And hospitalisations and deaths continue to collapse. Nobody seems the slightest bit concerned about young people and antivaxxers getting Covid.

Across the EU, restrictions are being dismantled, with one or two countries (like Denmark) having essentially removed all measures. There too there is now a decoupling: the numbers in hospital with CV19 are falling, even as case loads (mostly among the young and not even single jabbed) have risen.

No-one outside the UK (and genuine hotspots like South America and India) is thinking about doing anything other than returning to normal.

rcs1000 said:

The conversations on this board are surreal.

In Israel, CV19 is completely defeated. Despite reopening to (vaccinated) tourists and their children, total cases are a dozen a day. They are maybe six weeks ahead of us in terms of vaccination numbers.

In the US, which is still well behind the UK in terms of doses administered per person, and which is flattening out, there is not the slightest suggestion restrictions will continue. And hospitalisations and deaths continue to collapse. Nobody seems the slightest bit concerned about young people and antivaxxers getting Covid.

Across the EU, restrictions are being dismantled, with one or two countries (like Denmark) having essentially removed all measures. There too there is now a decoupling: the numbers in hospital with CV19 are falling, even as case loads (mostly among the young and not even single jabbed) have risen.

No-one outside the UK (and genuine hotspots like South America and India) is thinking about doing anything other than returning to normal.

DavidL said:

Of course the very slow rate of vaccination is not willfulness by the government. What has happened is that after a period where we almost took it for granted that they would roll a 6 every time on vaccinations they have come up with a couple of 1s in that large volumes of vaccine that they expected to have has not arrived. I suppose statistically this was likely to happen at some point but the timing is seriously disappointing and I find it bizarre that we can have front pages like those in the thread header with so little discussion of it.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

I was reading yesterday that Tesco have given up on the challenge of making their existing supply chain work for NI. Currently you supply products into GB national distribution centres who consolidate loads to go to the outlying regional DCs in northern Scotland, RoI and NI. That is no longer an option for NI, so they're now passing the impossible problem to suppliers - we have to ship to NI for them.

As with "just buy our food somewhere else" this won't work in the real world as consumers won't pay a lot more for less choice of lower quality stuff. In NI they will cease being supplied from GB and be supplied instead from RoI - cue violence from unionists British goods become an expensive rarity. And for GB? If we could source all the food we need from not the EU at the same price it would already have happened.

Final Q - when the UK signs a deal that doesn't work, isn't acceptable and immediately gets torn up by us, how does that help our negotiation stance with regards to deals with the rest of the world? You can't trust us to agree a deal as we've just shown that not only do we not know what we're signing, we simply rip it up and blame the other side.

Personally I would not have signed a deal with the NI protocol. But I understand why they did. If we hadn't there would be no supply problems to NI from GB at all.

Well Johnson only had four options:

1) delay Brexit
2) land border in Ireland (No Deal)
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) May's Deal (which he voted for at third reading)

1) would have destroyed him. Going for 4) probably too. 2) would have been chaotic and impossible to enforce, so he went for 3) with the plan to ignore it.

It was interesting to hear of the border battles in The Road to Partition last night.

rcs1000 said:

The conversations on this board are surreal.

In Israel, CV19 is completely defeated. Despite reopening to (vaccinated) tourists and their children, total cases are a dozen a day. They are maybe six weeks ahead of us in terms of vaccination numbers.

In the US, which is still well behind the UK in terms of doses administered per person, and which is flattening out, there is not the slightest suggestion restrictions will continue. And hospitalisations and deaths continue to collapse. Nobody seems the slightest bit concerned about young people and antivaxxers getting Covid.

Across the EU, restrictions are being dismantled, with one or two countries (like Denmark) having essentially removed all measures. There too there is now a decoupling: the numbers in hospital with CV19 are falling, even as case loads (mostly among the young and not even single jabbed) have risen.

No-one outside the UK (and genuine hotspots like South America and India) is thinking about doing anything other than returning to normal.

Alistair said:

Bit confused about why this government drunk on power and crushing our freedoms in thrall to over cautious scientists decided to do fuck all in September last year allowing the Autumn and winter surges to sweep the nation.

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

I am interested in what is planned for June 21st. Are people really expecting everything to end in terms of Social Distancing and masks etc? Certainly there are no plans for my hospital to do this. I just expect the final restrictions on businesses to end.

I think a lot of people expect social distancing to end then, indeed it's the main thing people expect to end. It is a massive pain and blockage on the path to normality, and with Covid rates so low it's just not worth it. You're not ending restrictions on businesses if you keep it.

Masks I can see people putting up with if they have to, or voluntarily as guidance, but social distancing? It has to stop already.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

I was reading yesterday that Tesco have given up on the challenge of making their existing supply chain work for NI. Currently you supply products into GB national distribution centres who consolidate loads to go to the outlying regional DCs in northern Scotland, RoI and NI. That is no longer an option for NI, so they're now passing the impossible problem to suppliers - we have to ship to NI for them.

As with "just buy our food somewhere else" this won't work in the real world as consumers won't pay a lot more for less choice of lower quality stuff. In NI they will cease being supplied from GB and be supplied instead from RoI - cue violence from unionists British goods become an expensive rarity. And for GB? If we could source all the food we need from not the EU at the same price it would already have happened.

Final Q - when the UK signs a deal that doesn't work, isn't acceptable and immediately gets torn up by us, how does that help our negotiation stance with regards to deals with the rest of the world? You can't trust us to agree a deal as we've just shown that not only do we not know what we're signing, we simply rip it up and blame the other side.

Personally I would not have signed a deal with the NI protocol. But I understand why they did. If we hadn't there would be no supply problems to NI from GB at all.

Well Johnson only had four options:

1) delay Brexit
2) land border in Ireland (No Deal)
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) May's Deal (which he voted for at third reading)

1) would have destroyed him. Going for 4) probably too. 2) would have been chaotic and impossible to enforce, so he went for 3) with the plan to ignore it.

It was interesting to hear of the border battles in The Road to Partition last night.

HYUFD said:

I can understand the government's decision. Until at least 2/3 of UK adults have had a second jab then there is simply too high a risk for the unvaccinated and those who have only had 1 jab from the Indian and other potential variants. Therefore they want to minimise foreign travel to only nations which have double vaccinated almost all their population or have barely any cases now at all....

ydoethur said:

I'll cheerfully bet the one I'm wearing now, because it's old, tatty and covered in paint (a skirting board needed doing).

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

I was reading yesterday that Tesco have given up on the challenge of making their existing supply chain work for NI. Currently you supply products into GB national distribution centres who consolidate loads to go to the outlying regional DCs in northern Scotland, RoI and NI. That is no longer an option for NI, so they're now passing the impossible problem to suppliers - we have to ship to NI for them.

As with "just buy our food somewhere else" this won't work in the real world as consumers won't pay a lot more for less choice of lower quality stuff. In NI they will cease being supplied from GB and be supplied instead from RoI - cue violence from unionists British goods become an expensive rarity. And for GB? If we could source all the food we need from not the EU at the same price it would already have happened.

Final Q - when the UK signs a deal that doesn't work, isn't acceptable and immediately gets torn up by us, how does that help our negotiation stance with regards to deals with the rest of the world? You can't trust us to agree a deal as we've just shown that not only do we not know what we're signing, we simply rip it up and blame the other side.

Personally I would not have signed a deal with the NI protocol. But I understand why they did. If we hadn't there would be no supply problems to NI from GB at all.

Well Johnson only had four options:

1) delay Brexit
2) land border in Ireland (No Deal)
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) May's Deal (which he voted for at third reading)

1) would have destroyed him. Going for 4) probably too. 2) would have been chaotic and impossible to enforce, so he went for 3) with the plan to ignore it.

It was interesting to hear of the border battles in The Road to Partition last night.

Indeed and had Boris chosen 1 he would not have regained voters from the Brexit Party, had he chosen 2 then there would now be a clear majority in Ireland for a United Ireland and also probably 60%+ support for independence in Scotland as a result of a No Deal outcome.

4 in my view was still better than 3 for the UK and the economy but not for the Tory Party in the sense Boris would not have won the clear majority he did in 2019 to defeat Corbyn had he stuck with May's Deal. Ironically if Starmer does become PM in 2024 he would probably return the UK to something close to May's Deal after all

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

The first dose got me at 3am this morning! Good Lord, I’ve honestly never felt as bad in my life

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's not good. Mrs RP was really ill for 36 hours after 1st AZ and I know she isn't alone in that. 2nd jab should be easier surely...?

Morris_Dancer said:

F1: Put a small sum on Norris to win each way in Azerbaijan at 29. He's driven well all year, the car was better than expected in Monaco and will be better in Azerbaijan due to the straight, and the race sometimes sees farcically high DNF rates.

turbotubbs said:

RochdalePioneers said:

The crux of the problem that @Cocky_cockney raises is that this government is functionally incompetent. I have been banging the drum for ages that "we won, we're popular, it doesn't matter" isn't good enough. Lies, corruption, incompetence, strategy based on newspaper headlines - this isn't how good government is done.

Since the start it has been blindingly obvious this clowncar government don't know how to communicate. Guidance that is contradicted one minister on the radio to the next that contradicts the law. A new 5 stage plan launched at 3.5. Regional tiers supposedly all the same but the rules are different in each place affected.

So it isn't a surprise that we're here. If you are double vaccinated then why do you need to isolate for 10 days and take 3 tests to come back from countries who have less pox than we do? Its illogical and stupid. They declared that 6 people in a choir couldn't meet covid secure in a venue to sing, but bands can play with the audience singing along. Who makes this shit up?

Fundamentally they do it and they get away with it because @Philip_Thompson and @Cocky_cockney etc rightly tear chunks of the government but vote for it anyway. They think you are stupid and tret you accordingly.

All valid criticisms. But have you examined the Scottish approach in your time there? The levels seem every bit as convoluted and confusing as anything in England. Why the eff is level 0 not normality? Do you need to go to level -1? Fundamentally this is a very difficult time to be in government. We have people all pulling in different directions. We are still hearing the shrill - "Why didn't we keep the India variant out by closing the borders" at the same time as "Why are we shutting to Portugal?" - when the reason given is exactly what the government is accused of NOT doing for India.

I get that you hate the Tory government, and I share your frustration at the messaging, which has been sclerotic, but this has been an unprecedented health emergency, and we are not at the end yet (near, but not there).

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

RochdalePioneers said:

The crux of the problem that @Cocky_cockney raises is that this government is functionally incompetent. I have been banging the drum for ages that "we won, we're popular, it doesn't matter" isn't good enough. Lies, corruption, incompetence, strategy based on newspaper headlines - this isn't how good government is done.

Since the start it has been blindingly obvious this clowncar government don't know how to communicate. Guidance that is contradicted one minister on the radio to the next that contradicts the law. A new 5 stage plan launched at 3.5. Regional tiers supposedly all the same but the rules are different in each place affected.

So it isn't a surprise that we're here. If you are double vaccinated then why do you need to isolate for 10 days and take 3 tests to come back from countries who have less pox than we do? Its illogical and stupid. They declared that 6 people in a choir couldn't meet covid secure in a venue to sing, but bands can play with the audience singing along. Who makes this shit up?

Fundamentally they do it and they get away with it because @Philip_Thompson and @Cocky_cockney etc rightly tear chunks of the government but vote for it anyway. They think you are stupid and tret you accordingly.

All valid criticisms. But have you examined the Scottish approach in your time there? The levels seem every bit as convoluted and confusing as anything in England. Why the eff is level 0 not normality? Do you need to go to level -1? Fundamentally this is a very difficult time to be in government. We have people all pulling in different directions. We are still hearing the shrill - "Why didn't we keep the India variant out by closing the borders" at the same time as "Why are we shutting to Portugal?" - when the reason given is exactly what the government is accused of NOT doing for India.

I get that you hate the Tory government, and I share your frustration at the messaging, which has been sclerotic, but this has been an unprecedented health emergency, and we are not at the end yet (near, but not there).

I voted LibDem / LibDem in the elections. I did not give my support to the McClowncar so none of their actions are on me. South of the wall plenty of people tear chunks off the utter incompetence of the Tories and yet vote Tory for more incompetence.

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

I was reading yesterday that Tesco have given up on the challenge of making their existing supply chain work for NI. Currently you supply products into GB national distribution centres who consolidate loads to go to the outlying regional DCs in northern Scotland, RoI and NI. That is no longer an option for NI, so they're now passing the impossible problem to suppliers - we have to ship to NI for them.

As with "just buy our food somewhere else" this won't work in the real world as consumers won't pay a lot more for less choice of lower quality stuff. In NI they will cease being supplied from GB and be supplied instead from RoI - cue violence from unionists British goods become an expensive rarity. And for GB? If we could source all the food we need from not the EU at the same price it would already have happened.

Final Q - when the UK signs a deal that doesn't work, isn't acceptable and immediately gets torn up by us, how does that help our negotiation stance with regards to deals with the rest of the world? You can't trust us to agree a deal as we've just shown that not only do we not know what we're signing, we simply rip it up and blame the other side.

Personally I would not have signed a deal with the NI protocol. But I understand why they did. If we hadn't there would be no supply problems to NI from GB at all.

Well Johnson only had four options:

1) delay Brexit
2) land border in Ireland (No Deal)
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) May's Deal (which he voted for at third reading)

1) would have destroyed him. Going for 4) probably too. 2) would have been chaotic and impossible to enforce, so he went for 3) with the plan to ignore it.

It was interesting to hear of the border battles in The Road to Partition last night.

Indeed and had Boris chosen 1 he would not have regained voters from the Brexit Party, had he chosen 2 then there would now be a clear majority in Ireland for a United Ireland and also probably 60%+ support for independence in Scotland as a result of a No Deal outcome.

4 in my view was still better than 3 for the UK and the economy but not for the Tory Party in the sense Boris would not have won the clear majority he did in 2019 to defeat Corbyn had he stuck with May's Deal. Ironically if Starmer does become PM in 2024 he would probably return the UK to something close to May's Deal after all

Ummm - aren't we all forgetting that he did delay Brexit?

Childishly, incompetently, on the orders of PArliament etc etc but he did hit the pause button.

Foxy said:

I am interested in what is planned for June 21st. Are people really expecting everything to end in terms of Social Distancing and masks etc? Certainly there are no plans for my hospital to do this. I just expect the final restrictions on businesses to end.

Stereodog said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

The first dose got me at 3am this morning! Good Lord, I’ve honestly never felt as bad in my life

I had my first Pfizer vaccine on Tuesday and passed out 2 minutes after. I was carried to a bed and recovered about 15 minutes afterwards. My vaccine center was a little cottage hospital and I was sat in a chair in the courtyard to recover like an elderly invalid. Interestingly there were two other people my own age sat there with a similar reaction.

I recovered quickly so no complaints but the nurse said they've been seeing this reaction a lot more now they're doing more young people. They think it might be due to either dehydration or an empty stomach (both would have applied to me). Might be worth warning any 30 somethings you know to have a good breakfast and drink enough water before going

RochdalePioneers said:

ydoethur said:

Philip_Thompson said:

another_richard said:

Mirror poll reveals 81% back isolation for everyone on UK return

Looks like the government may have made a popular decision.

The 'front pages' are no more Britain than Twitter is.

The 'front pages' and response if 21 June does not go ahead is going to be far, far more severe.

One thing to watch out for is Rishi Sunak's reaction. 21st June is as popular as he's ever going to be. If it's delayed, and he resigns in protest on the grounds that continuing with unnecessary restrictions is economic suicide, not only do Harper and Baker have the perfect excuse to move against Johnson, but the party also has a plausible alternative leader - indeed, under those circumstances Sunak might be the Howard candidate.

I don't say it's likely, but it's one thing to keep an eye on.

Its certainly a possibility. Sunak certainly doesn't need the money that comes with the job and politically speaking making a well timed and precisely targeted attack would pay out more than the CofE salary in the long run.

Come on Tories, you need Dishy as PM. Scrap the clowncar, remove the liars and charlatans from high office and deliver the kind of government you profess to support.

Stereodog said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

The first dose got me at 3am this morning! Good Lord, I’ve honestly never felt as bad in my life

I had my first Pfizer vaccine on Tuesday and passed out 2 minutes after. I was carried to a bed and recovered about 15 minutes afterwards. My vaccine center was a little cottage hospital and I was sat in a chair in the courtyard to recover like an elderly invalid. Interestingly there were two other people my own age sat there with a similar reaction.

I recovered quickly so no complaints but the nurse said they've been seeing this reaction a lot more now they're doing more young people. They think it might be due to either dehydration or an empty stomach (both would have applied to me). Might be worth warning any 30 somethings you know to have a good breakfast and drink enough water before going

ydoethur said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

DavidL said:

Gardenwalker said:

CarlottaVance said:

Thread on the NI protocol TL:dr “”It’s all the UK’s fault”

https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1400683894744272901?s=21

Tony Connelly is always worth reading.

Looks like Lord Frost is indeed buggering up on the protocol and the EU are considering retaliation measures.

The reality was that the NI protocol was never acceptable and was never going to work. It was accepted to get the deal over the line but I seriously question if we ever meant it or whether we expected the "temporary" derogations to go on indefinitely.

I therefore do not think that Frost has "buggered up" the protocol, he has simply said that it will not work and is not acceptable to us. That puts us in breach but finding a response to that by the EU that does not amount to self harm will be tricky.

The EU has run a surplus of the thick end of £90bn of surplus in goods with the UK for a long time. That is starting to change fairly fast and the more restrictions they put on the faster it will change. If, as was being alleged yesterday, they allow "red tape" to increase the cost of food supplied by them we will simply buy our food somewhere else. The EU is currently losing far more trade than we are. Do they really want to make that even worse?

It’s Frost’s protocol that he is now saying won’t work. That’s either gross incompetence or gross deceit.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think you should allow for the distinct possibility that it's both.

You could bet your shirt on it being both.

I'll cheerfully bet the one I'm wearing now, because it's old, tatty and covered in paint (a skirting board needed doing).

I'd have used a paintbrush, myself.

All the bristles had gone hard.

Foxy said:

Dura_Ace said:

ydoethur said:

Dura_Ace said:

ydoethur said:

You know who else had a party that was based on nationalism, socialism and the workers...

Two out of three. Fuck the workers.

Carrie's a worker?

(Ouch, on the photo, that's awful.)

His council house teeth really offend Mrs DA who otherwise does not have a single fully formed political opinion.

Surely teeth like that get £ signs flashing up in Mrs @Dura_Ace eyes?

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Of course the very slow rate of vaccination is not willfulness by the government. What has happened is that after a period where we almost took it for granted that they would roll a 6 every time on vaccinations they have come up with a couple of 1s in that large volumes of vaccine that they expected to have has not arrived. I suppose statistically this was likely to happen at some point but the timing is seriously disappointing and I find it bizarre that we can have front pages like those in the thread header with so little discussion of it.

Trouble with using the "bad luck" excuse (which seems pretty valid) is that it means acknowledging that some of the UK's success earlier was down to good luck- not just perfect judgement.
(This isn't to say that the UK's judgement wasn't good, but that wasn't the while story.)
For example, we got an early start to Pfizer deliveries, but numbers have been flat since then. France, on the other hand did 700k jabs yesterday, and will be needing to find a million arms a day soon.
Given that the UK's key insight was that it was right to spend on vaccines like Bunter in a tuckshop, why didn't we order more?

Leon said:

Stereodog said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

Slightly O/T but my wife has had a much more negative reaction to her second dose of vaccine than she did to her first. She has been seriously off her feet for the last 3 days, sick, achy and very, very tired. Almost no response at all to her first dose. I didn't expect this.

That's because her immune system is working. And it's always the second dose that gets you.

The first dose got me at 3am this morning! Good Lord, I’ve honestly never felt as bad in my life

I had my first Pfizer vaccine on Tuesday and passed out 2 minutes after. I was carried to a bed and recovered about 15 minutes afterwards. My vaccine center was a little cottage hospital and I was sat in a chair in the courtyard to recover like an elderly invalid. Interestingly there were two other people my own age sat there with a similar reaction.

I recovered quickly so no complaints but the nurse said they've been seeing this reaction a lot more now they're doing more young people. They think it might be due to either dehydration or an empty stomach (both would have applied to me). Might be worth warning any 30 somethings you know to have a good breakfast and drink enough water before going

I got my 2nd AZ recently. I heard two theories from staff at the Francis Crick Institute

1. It is entirely random, they can't figure out who will get a bad reaction, and who won't

2. There IS a vague pattern. Young people suffer a bad reaction more often, probably because they have stronger immune systems

I got quite a sore arm after my first jab, but nothing else; my 2nd jab passed without any side-effects at all

Leon said:

Morning!