The Indy publishes LD data suggesting that Chesham & Amersham could be competitive – politicalbettin

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

IshmaelZ said:

Hartlepool = peak Johnson.

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

ManchesterKurt said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

Would blocking the M6 and M1 reduce those imbalances then ?

Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?

Gardenwalker said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

Would blocking the M6 and M1 reduce those imbalances then ?

Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?

You have me wrong, I think.
I’m in favour of HS2, just not as a “levelling up” measure.

Edit: yes, in a funny way blocking the M1 would reduce imbalances.

Andy_JS said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT, if we believe the polling, and can assume Reform U.K. will take no more than 2%, then we have something like (rounded)

Conservative 46
Lib Dem 35
Labour or Green 16
RefUK 2
Others 1

So Lib Dems need 2/3 of the Lab/Green vote.
It’s mathematically doable, but we don’t do that level of tactical voting in the U.K.

As someone points out, it would be strategically very valuable to Keir for the LDs to win this.
He should be sending a message.

I think there's a good chance both Labour and the Greens will be below 5%.

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.

If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?

Yes I agree, I was just responding to your question about how to level up.

It is also worthwhile my pointing out that the Tories aren’t doing any of the things I mention, although the ability of metros to run their own bus services will certainly help.

(The privatised patchwork of franchises has retarded economic growth by making it harder for commuters to get to jobs.)

Fenman said:

Razedabode said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

Let’s not do this again. Scotland does not pay for HS2, and all money spent is returned via the Barnett formula

How would we ever manage without Scottish subsidies? Well I guess we'll just have to try.

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

They ought to just stop for a while so we can appreciate what's already there.

tlg86 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?

Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?

bigjohnowls said:

On Topic

LDs losing here

Andy_JS said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

The problem is trains tend to be used mainly by the affluent. I know that's a surprise for anyone who's had bad experiences on crowded trains, but it's what the statistics show nonetheless.

tlg86 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?

Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?

Alistair said:

Edinburgh case numbers are now brown trouser time.

FrancisUrquhart said:

We all ready for Brittas does Morgan at 9pm?

IshmaelZ said:

Charles said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)

Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.

Andy_JS said:

Interesting fact about London skyscrapers: many of the tallest buildings in the City of London in the 70s and 80s don't exist now. They've been demolished to make way for even higher ones.

Gardenwalker said:

Charles said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)

Maybe he uses better wallpaper?

Charles said:

IshmaelZ said:

Charles said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)

Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.

Which is why I didn’t post the price, just the relative valuation. He doesn’t think it will achieve that price (he’s a major property investor) but is willing to sell at that level if someone will buy.

Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

MrEd said:

Cicero said:

Andy_JS said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT, if we believe the polling, and can assume Reform U.K. will take no more than 2%, then we have something like (rounded)

Conservative 46
Lib Dem 35
Labour or Green 16
RefUK 2
Others 1

So Lib Dems need 2/3 of the Lab/Green vote.
It’s mathematically doable, but we don’t do that level of tactical voting in the U.K.

As someone points out, it would be strategically very valuable to Keir for the LDs to win this.
He should be sending a message.

I think there's a good chance both Labour and the Greens will be below 5%.

I think the big question is the robustness of the Tory vote. I am hearing that the Tory vote is very soft indeed.

How much is this you wanting it to be so and how much the quality of information you are receiving? If people are betting on Mike’s tip, would be good to know.

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

alex_ said:

Check out the Indy500 on now. If that’s 40% capacity!

DougSeal said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

I think London will bounce back but commercial property is a slow motion car crash and more Square Mile skyscrapers at the mo is hubristic

Andy_JS said:

DavidL said:

It makes sense to me, as Mike suggests, that just as the government gets a boost in Brexit areas such as Hartlepool it might suffer a contrary wind in seats such as Chesham and Amersham.. If it didn't the Tories would currently be sitting over 50% and they are well short of that. There therefore has to be areas where they are losing votes to offset the areas where they are gaining them.

The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.

Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.

It would be slightly bizarre if the Tories lose Chesham and win Batley & Spen. The realignment of British politics would be very much underway if that scenario happens.

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?

tlg86 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?

Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.

If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?

ydoethur said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Gardenwalker said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

So what would make a difference then?

Ooh. This is my special subject.

The research seems to suggest:

1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.

@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.

HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.

If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?

Because there are better ways that the money can be spent on the rail network which would deliver much better, more cost effective and more needed improvements.

tlg86 said:

Gardenwalker said:

Leon said:

A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).


"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"

https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20


Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre

Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?

Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?

Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

As an observer of HS2 from day one

Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?

Yes

And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.

ManchesterKurt said:

Andy_JS said:

Interesting fact about London skyscrapers: many of the tallest buildings in the City of London in the 70s and 80s don't exist now. They've been demolished to make way for even higher ones.

another fun fact is for a time the tallest tower in the country was the 26 storey Coop building in Manchester for a few months before the BT Tower (I think) was completed.

There has also, pre Covid, been talk of a new residential on River Street in Manchester to be 97 storeys and taller than the Shard. Won't happen.

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

As an observer of HS2 from day one

Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?

Yes

And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.

The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.

They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.

another_richard said:

I'm quite curious as to the fanaticism HS2 fans have.

Possible reasons:

1) A yearning for the era of the Brunel and the Stephensons when Britain led the world in railway development.

2) A yearning for the era of the Flying Scotsman and Mallard when Britain led the world in fast trains.

3) Memories of Hornby railways of the above.

4) Envy of Japanese or French railways.

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

As an observer of HS2 from day one

Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?

Yes

And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.

The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.

They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.

But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.

It's like you have not been paying attention.

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

As an observer of HS2 from day one

Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?

Yes

And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.

The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.

They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.

But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.

It's like you have not been paying attention.

There are always 'reasons' but the real reason is that the costs are always underestimated to get government approval - doubtless government is often complicit in this.

This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

another_richard said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

As an observer of HS2 from day one

Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?

Yes

And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.

The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.

They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.

But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.

It's like you have not been paying attention.

There are always 'reasons' but the real reason is that the costs are always underestimated to get government approval - doubtless government is often complicit in this.

This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Stuartinromford said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

ydoethur said:

HYUFD said:

As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.

'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.

“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”

Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chesham-amersham-byelection-libdems-davey-b1856301.html

Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.

And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds

It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns

That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.

But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.

Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).

It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities

It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.

I respectfully disagree

The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services

Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer

not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit

It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.

If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.

Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.

No you will not have to change.

HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.

Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.

To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.

And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.

There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.

But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.

As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.

Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.

If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?

Don't get it.

Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.

Or in the case of ManchesterKurt it seems it is easier to just ignore the facts and keep pumping out the same unfounded claims.

In this case, Richard, I would point out it was your claims that were unfounded. You said that anyone travelling on HS2 would have to change to access the existing network. ManchesterKurt dismissed your claims - as did I, providing evidence.

Your further claim that there needs to be further investment in existing rail also doesn’t stack up, for two good reasons: (1) because a lot of that is already going in, albeit not in the quantities I would like to see and (2) because without addressing the severe congestion on the main railways there are strict limits to how much benefit such spending will have. There is no point in buying new trains or laying new track if you have to keep switching to other trains through lack of pathways, as you yourself noted.