As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
Let’s not do this again. Scotland does not pay for HS2, and all money spent is returned via the Barnett formula
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
But they will run to Scotland. They can reconnect with the main line at four points: Handsacre, Crewe, Wigan and Manchester. And trains designed to be co-operable on the WCML (‘classic compatible’) will carry straight on north over Shap.
C&A is the third least-deprived constituency in the country according to the chart someone posted a few weeks ago.
And yet people are still "demanding better".
Is nobody ever satisfied with anything?
No, they might have ambitions to be a Toynbee seat, like Putney or Richmond Park, Cambridge or Canterbury. Then you can be as posh as you like with a clear conscience, keep out the riff raff and get XR to climb trees to stop that railway.
Yep. And we can pinpoint it even more precisely. Peaks are often marked by something veering into absurdity. The RBS bid for ABN. Jeremy playing Glasto and telling the world he'd be PM by Christmas. Caligula appointing a horse as Consul.
Here it was that hubristic and truly ludicrous "Boris Blimp" in Hartlepool after the win. That it didn't look at all like him somehow only added to the cringe. I saw that and just one word flashed into my mind. PEAK. As it did for you.
And we're right. I'm sure of it. It will still be a labour of Hercules to beat him at the polls and get rid - but Johnson is in decline now.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
Would blocking the M6 and M1 reduce those imbalances then ?
Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
Would blocking the M6 and M1 reduce those imbalances then ?
Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?
You have me wrong, I think. I’m in favour of HS2, just not as a “levelling up” measure.
Edit: yes, in a funny way blocking the M1 would reduce imbalances.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
Would blocking the M6 and M1 reduce those imbalances then ?
Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?
You have me wrong, I think. I’m in favour of HS2, just not as a “levelling up” measure.
Edit: yes, in a funny way blocking the M1 would reduce imbalances.
It would certainly increase local journey times though!
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
Yes I agree, I was just responding to your question about how to level up.
It is also worthwhile my pointing out that the Tories aren’t doing any of the things I mention, although the ability of metros to run their own bus services will certainly help.
(The privatised patchwork of franchises has retarded economic growth by making it harder for commuters to get to jobs.)
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
Yes I agree, I was just responding to your question about how to level up.
It is also worthwhile my pointing out that the Tories aren’t doing any of the things I mention, although the ability of metros to run their own bus services will certainly help.
(The privatised patchwork of franchises has retarded economic growth by making it harder for commuters to get to jobs.)
And they look very interesting ideas too.
Have you put them up to the Lib Dems? Serious question.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
Let’s not do this again. Scotland does not pay for HS2, and all money spent is returned via the Barnett formula
How would we ever manage without Scottish subsidies? Well I guess we'll just have to try.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
Let’s not do this again. Scotland does not pay for HS2, and all money spent is returned via the Barnett formula
How would we ever manage without Scottish subsidies? Well I guess we'll just have to try.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
Yes I agree, I was just responding to your question about how to level up.
It is also worthwhile my pointing out that the Tories aren’t doing any of the things I mention, although the ability of metros to run their own bus services will certainly help.
(The privatised patchwork of franchises has retarded economic growth by making it harder for commuters to get to jobs.)
And they look very interesting ideas too.
Have you put them up to the Lib Dems? Serious question.
They are not really new ideas (the Heseltine Review touched similar themes).
If we really want to level up it requires significant devolution and indeed devolution of significant spend, and its a generational project.
But it is possible. East Germany is now richer than the North of England.
It also requires going against 40 years of laissez faire in regional policy which, despite proven failure, still influences many on the right (freeports is a dim echo of this).
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
I would like to say, this is market forces, supplying a demand that has long been there, made possible by streamlining/ speeding up planning decisions.
However with inflation bubbling up, this also makes me nerves.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
They ought to just stop for a while so we can appreciate what's already there.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
They ought to just stop for a while so we can appreciate what's already there.
Although a significant part of the skyline is complaining about the cost of COVID.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
I think London will bounce back but commercial property is a slow motion car crash and more Square Mile skyscrapers at the mo is hubristic
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
The problem is trains tend to be used mainly by the affluent. I know that's a surprise for anyone who's had bad experiences on crowded trains, but it's what the statistics show nonetheless.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
The problem is trains tend to be used mainly by the affluent. I know that's a surprise for anyone who's had bad experiences on crowded trains, but it's what the statistics show nonetheless.
Why is this a problem? Infrastructure supports economic development; trains are not supposed to be about wealth redistribution.
Interesting fact about London skyscrapers: many of the tallest buildings in the City of London in the 70s and 80s don't exist now. They've been demolished to make way for even higher ones.
It makes sense to me, as Mike suggests, that just as the government gets a boost in Brexit areas such as Hartlepool it might suffer a contrary wind in seats such as Chesham and Amersham.. If it didn't the Tories would currently be sitting over 50% and they are well short of that. There therefore has to be areas where they are losing votes to offset the areas where they are gaining them.
The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.
Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?
I like it from a distance. Which is how I usually see it.
DISY - Democratic Rally: 27.8% (-2.9) AKEL - Progressive Party of Working People:: 22.2% (-3.5) DIKO - Democratic Party: 11.3% (-1.2) ELAM - National Popular Front: 6.8% (+3.1) EDEK/SYPOL - Movement for Social Democracy/Citizens Alliance: 6.7% (-5.5) DIPA - Democratic Alignment: 6.1% (+6.1) KOSP - Movement of Ecologists: 4.5% (-0.3) KEKK - Active Citizens/Movement of Cypriot Hunters 3.3 (+3.3) AG - Generation Change 2.8% (+2.8) KA - Solidarity Movement 2.3 (-3.0)
This seems to confirm the trend from 2016 of the old DISY/AKEL duopoly continuing to break down and it's now barely 50% between them (from 67% ten years ago). The big winners are the ultra-nationalist ELAM (which had past connections with the Golden Dawn movement in Greece) and new party DIPA, a split off from DIPO (not surprisingly).
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.
Which is why I didn’t post the price, just the relative valuation. He doesn’t think it will achieve that price (he’s a major property investor) but is willing to sell at that level if someone will buy.
Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.
FPT, if we believe the polling, and can assume Reform U.K. will take no more than 2%, then we have something like (rounded)
Conservative 46 Lib Dem 35 Labour or Green 16 RefUK 2 Others 1
So Lib Dems need 2/3 of the Lab/Green vote. It’s mathematically doable, but we don’t do that level of tactical voting in the U.K.
As someone points out, it would be strategically very valuable to Keir for the LDs to win this. He should be sending a message.
I think there's a good chance both Labour and the Greens will be below 5%.
I think the big question is the robustness of the Tory vote. I am hearing that the Tory vote is very soft indeed.
How much is this you wanting it to be so and how much the quality of information you are receiving? If people are betting on Mike’s tip, would be good to know.
Interesting fact about London skyscrapers: many of the tallest buildings in the City of London in the 70s and 80s don't exist now. They've been demolished to make way for even higher ones.
another fun fact is for a time the tallest tower in the country was the 26 storey Coop building in Manchester for a few months before the BT Tower (I think) was completed.
There has also, pre Covid, been talk of a new residential on River Street in Manchester to be 97 storeys and taller than the Shard. Won't happen.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
The problem is trains tend to be used mainly by the affluent. I know that's a surprise for anyone who's had bad experiences on crowded trains, but it's what the statistics show nonetheless.
Why is this a problem? Infrastructure supports economic development; trains are not supposed to be about wealth redistribution.
I was replying to the fact it was supposed to help "levelling up".
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.
Which is why I didn’t post the price, just the relative valuation. He doesn’t think it will achieve that price (he’s a major property investor) but is willing to sell at that level if someone will buy.
Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.
He’s willing to sell at a higher price than he expects to get, if somebody offers said higher price?
That’s really a bit of a No Shit Sherlock statement...
It makes sense to me, as Mike suggests, that just as the government gets a boost in Brexit areas such as Hartlepool it might suffer a contrary wind in seats such as Chesham and Amersham.. If it didn't the Tories would currently be sitting over 50% and they are well short of that. There therefore has to be areas where they are losing votes to offset the areas where they are gaining them.
The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.
Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.
It would be slightly bizarre if the Tories lose Chesham and win Batley & Spen. The realignment of British politics would be very much underway if that scenario happens.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
Indeed, is there any evidence that the long established TGV network has helped the old coalfields of Picardy? Or has it just whizzed people through it, going from metropolis to metropolis?
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.
Which is why I didn’t post the price, just the relative valuation. He doesn’t think it will achieve that price (he’s a major property investor) but is willing to sell at that level if someone will buy.
Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.
FPT, if we believe the polling, and can assume Reform U.K. will take no more than 2%, then we have something like (rounded)
Conservative 46 Lib Dem 35 Labour or Green 16 RefUK 2 Others 1
So Lib Dems need 2/3 of the Lab/Green vote. It’s mathematically doable, but we don’t do that level of tactical voting in the U.K.
As someone points out, it would be strategically very valuable to Keir for the LDs to win this. He should be sending a message.
I think there's a good chance both Labour and the Greens will be below 5%.
I think the big question is the robustness of the Tory vote. I am hearing that the Tory vote is very soft indeed.
How much is this you wanting it to be so and how much the quality of information you are receiving? If people are betting on Mike’s tip, would be good to know.
I love a good piece of hearsay evidence. Sometimes it’s even true.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Um, Charles, gentlemen don't post that sort of thing.
Which is why I didn’t post the price, just the relative valuation. He doesn’t think it will achieve that price (he’s a major property investor) but is willing to sell at that level if someone will buy.
Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.
He’s willing to sell at a higher price than he expects to get, if somebody offers said higher price?
That’s really a bit of a No Shit Sherlock statement...
Sigh.
My point is that Savills have come up with a silly valuation. It’s not real because it hasn’t transacted at that level. But it suggests the market is overheating in London if an experienced properly investor is willing to sell (he’s moving to the country and was going to keep it for the occasional night in London). He’s not short of capital.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
It makes sense to me, as Mike suggests, that just as the government gets a boost in Brexit areas such as Hartlepool it might suffer a contrary wind in seats such as Chesham and Amersham.. If it didn't the Tories would currently be sitting over 50% and they are well short of that. There therefore has to be areas where they are losing votes to offset the areas where they are gaining them.
The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.
Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.
It would be slightly bizarre if the Tories lose Chesham and win Batley & Spen. The realignment of British politics would be very much underway if that scenario happens.
I think that that would be pretty extreme. My guess is that they will win C&A with a much reduced majority and come close but no cigar in B&S. But it is curious how even now Brexit is still shaping our politics.
Yep. And we can pinpoint it even more precisely. Peaks are often marked by something veering into absurdity. The RBS bid for ABN. Jeremy playing Glasto and telling the world he'd be PM by Christmas. Caligula appointing a horse as Consul.
Here it was that hubristic and truly ludicrous "Boris Blimp" in Hartlepool after the win. That it didn't look at all like him somehow only added to the cringe. I saw that and just one word flashed into my mind. PEAK. As it did for you.
And we're right. I'm sure of it. It will still be a labour of Hercules to beat him at the polls and get rid - but Johnson is in decline now.
Usually, you'd be right, and I see what you mean. But I wonder if Boris has become the English Sturgeon. In which case his demise may take a fuck of a long time, and he will have more peaks
Yep. And we can pinpoint it even more precisely. Peaks are often marked by something veering into absurdity. The RBS bid for ABN. Jeremy playing Glasto and telling the world he'd be PM by Christmas. Caligula appointing a horse as Consul.
Here it was that hubristic and truly ludicrous "Boris Blimp" in Hartlepool after the win. That it didn't look at all like him somehow only added to the cringe. I saw that and just one word flashed into my mind. PEAK. As it did for you.
And we're right. I'm sure of it. It will still be a labour of Hercules to beat him at the polls and get rid - but Johnson is in decline now.
Bold. Assuming he sticks to 21st June, that is likely to be a bigger popularity summit to climb yet.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
I think London will bounce back but commercial property is a slow motion car crash and more Square Mile skyscrapers at the mo is hubristic
It is indeed. Presumably they were all planned and authorised in the years BC (Before Covid). Whether their business model assumptions would pass now, who knows?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
One of the things that amuses me about HS2 is how similar the arguments have been to those advanced against the old London and Birmingham Railway. One peer went so far as to claim that it would destroy the social order and lead to rioting in the streets.
And yet, strangely, they all sold their land. At vastly inflated prices. I think ultimately the sum paid out was three times what was budgeted for.
Strangely, the railway cost almost exactly double the estimate - partly as a result (although Kilsby Tunnel played its part).
It makes sense to me, as Mike suggests, that just as the government gets a boost in Brexit areas such as Hartlepool it might suffer a contrary wind in seats such as Chesham and Amersham.. If it didn't the Tories would currently be sitting over 50% and they are well short of that. There therefore has to be areas where they are losing votes to offset the areas where they are gaining them.
The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.
Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.
It would be slightly bizarre if the Tories lose Chesham and win Batley & Spen. The realignment of British politics would be very much underway if that scenario happens.
All we have had is a bit of hype based on one poll that has not had a to back it up. Imagine PB doing a thread based on thec18% Tory lead..
At the Richmond Park (2016) and Brecon (2019) by-elections the LDs made available similar data that proved to be indicative when the votes were counted.
They also published since less than impressive constituency polls for the 2019 general election:
Which had the LibDems leading in Cambridge, Cambridgeshire South, Finchley and Portsmouth South.
There was rather the suspicion that the LibDems commission lots of small sample, high MOE constituency polls and then publish only the ones they like the look of.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
I tend to agree, especially the Walkie Talkie bit. And hopefully the cluster will temper and disguise the truly ugly slab facade of 22 Bishopsgate, from certain angles (ie the north, west). It is a damn shame about the Gherkin. An iconic and beautiful building, now with one sightline left
My comment was more about the economics, however. Who will work in all these new offices? Who will live in all these new residential towers?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
Indeed, is there any evidence that the long established TGV network has helped the old coalfields of Picardy? Or has it just whizzed people through it, going from metropolis to metropolis?
As I mentioned, the EU published a paper about 2 decades ago on this which showed that the TGV system in France has served to suck GDP away from the regions rather than increase it. There was a very small attributable increase in overall GDP for France but the TGV increased the imbalance between Paris and the TGV destinations compared to those regions not served by the system.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
Because there are better ways that the money can be spent on the rail network which would deliver much better, more cost effective and more needed improvements.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
One of the things that amuses me about HS2 is how similar the arguments have been to those advanced against the old London and Birmingham Railway. One peer went so far as to claim that it would destroy the social order and lead to rioting in the streets.
And yet, strangely, they all sold their land. At vastly inflated prices. I think ultimately the sum paid out was three times what was budgeted for.
Strangely, the railway cost almost exactly double the estimate - partly as a result (although Kilsby Tunnel played its part).
I don't remember HS2 cheerleaders saying that it would cost double the estimate back in 2010.
Although quadruple the estimate would be more accurate.
On the contrary I remember them being furious at any suggestion that it would cost more than £30bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £50bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £80bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £100bn.
What are we at now ? Is it £120bn or have we now reached £150bn ?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.
Or in the case of ManchesterKurt it seems it is easier to just ignore the facts and keep pumping out the same unfounded claims.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?
Is that the one you can visit with all the bars and restaurants? Maybe that's the Cheesegrater. Visited it once and had a basic meal which cost about £150 for two people.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
So what would make a difference then?
Ooh. This is my special subject.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base 2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool 3. Local skills development 4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning 5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
HS2 however is central to reducing local journey times as well. In particular, the faster trains across the north can’t realistically be delivered without it.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
Because there are better ways that the money can be spent on the rail network which would deliver much better, more cost effective and more needed improvements.
Yes, if we want to develop smaller towns then we need trains that serve intermediate stations rather than speed by at 200mph from one metropolis to another.
I am not affected by HS2 and cannot see a reason to ever use it. My main concern is that lines like MML which I do use, will be starved of resources in order to pay for it.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?
I do - many of the new London skyscrapers dont work in isolation, but as a group they do. I also like that it means they can be pretty distinctive and have silly nicknames (or even official names). The Gherkin (though unofficial) was a good start to a trend.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
One of the things that amuses me about HS2 is how similar the arguments have been to those advanced against the old London and Birmingham Railway. One peer went so far as to claim that it would destroy the social order and lead to rioting in the streets.
And yet, strangely, they all sold their land. At vastly inflated prices. I think ultimately the sum paid out was three times what was budgeted for.
Strangely, the railway cost almost exactly double the estimate - partly as a result (although Kilsby Tunnel played its part).
I don't remember HS2 cheerleaders saying that it would cost double the estimate back in 2010.
Although quadruple the estimate would be more accurate.
On the contrary I remember them being furious at any suggestion that it would cost more than £30bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £50bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £80bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £100bn.
What are we at now ? Is it £120bn or have we now reached £150bn ?
The Oakervee review put the cost at £81 billion.
This was partly due to inflated land prices and partly due to higher speeds than the original proposal.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
From memory, it is now ancient memory, the £32bn (???) initial quote was the P50 costings.
The P95 cost when first published was mid £40bn's from memory.
That was based on a treasury assumption that HS2 could be delivered 20% cheaper per mile than HS1, with no evidence to back that up.
When the 20% saving failed to materialise the costs rose to ~£50bn (P95) where they stayed until about 2018/19 when the costs were raised to £86bn (P95) due to poor cost management / higher property costs than previously expected.
If Phase 2 has been approached as Phase 1 then the costs would have risen to £106bn (P95) hence the change to adopt the HS1 approach to design for phase 2 which leaves the P95 cost at £86bn (P95).
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
Interesting fact about London skyscrapers: many of the tallest buildings in the City of London in the 70s and 80s don't exist now. They've been demolished to make way for even higher ones.
another fun fact is for a time the tallest tower in the country was the 26 storey Coop building in Manchester for a few months before the BT Tower (I think) was completed.
There has also, pre Covid, been talk of a new residential on River Street in Manchester to be 97 storeys and taller than the Shard. Won't happen.
Another fun fact: for 250 years the tallest building in the WORLD was Lincoln Cathedral. Then the spire fell down
Instead of HS2, we should have built a MagLev system that goes alongside the motorways. So along the M40 from London to Birmingham, the M6 from Birmingham to Manchester, and so on. It wouldn't have required much demolition/clearing of land, and the journey times would have been faster.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.
Instead of HS2, we should have built a MagLev system that goes alongside the motorways. So along the M40 from London to Birmingham, the M6 from Birmingham to Manchester, and so on. It wouldn't have required much demolition/clearing of land, and the times would have been faster.
and utterly incompatible with the existing network.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
Looks good. Also makes the Walkie-Talkie look a bit less shit (basically by crowding it in). What’s the problem?
Am I the only person who likes the Walkie Talkie?
Is that the one you can visit with all the bars and restaurants? Maybe that's the Cheesegrater. Visited it once and had a basic meal which cost about £150 for two people.
They ALL have bars and restaurants, these days
The Walkie Talkie arguably has the best views, over the Shard. Spectacular. Also, of course, you can't see the Walkie Talkie
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.
Or in the case of ManchesterKurt it seems it is easier to just ignore the facts and keep pumping out the same unfounded claims.
In this case, Richard, I would point out it was your claims that were unfounded. You said that anyone travelling on HS2 would have to change to access the existing network. ManchesterKurt dismissed your claims - as did I, providing evidence.
Your further claim that there needs to be further investment in existing rail also doesn’t stack up, for two good reasons: (1) because a lot of that is already going in, albeit not in the quantities I would like to see and (2) because without addressing the severe congestion on the main railways there are strict limits to how much benefit such spending will have. There is no point in buying new trains or laying new track if you have to keep switching to other trains through lack of pathways, as you yourself noted.
I'm quite curious as to the fanaticism HS2 fans have.
Possible reasons:
1) A yearning for the era of the Brunel and the Stephensons when Britain led the world in railway development.
2) A yearning for the era of the Flying Scotsman and Mallard when Britain led the world in fast trains.
3) Memories of Hornby railways of the above.
4) Envy of Japanese or French railways.
Have decent public transport in the UK serving cities other than London, allowing far far more commuter services into Manchester as the fast trains which sap rail capacity are put on new lines.
Prestbury to Manc is 1 train per hour.
HS2 permits that to increase, or other services to increase their frequencies.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.
It's like you have not been paying attention.
There are always 'reasons' but the real reason is that the costs are always underestimated to get government approval - doubtless government is often complicit in this.
This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
One of the things that amuses me about HS2 is how similar the arguments have been to those advanced against the old London and Birmingham Railway. One peer went so far as to claim that it would destroy the social order and lead to rioting in the streets.
And yet, strangely, they all sold their land. At vastly inflated prices. I think ultimately the sum paid out was three times what was budgeted for.
Strangely, the railway cost almost exactly double the estimate - partly as a result (although Kilsby Tunnel played its part).
I don't remember HS2 cheerleaders saying that it would cost double the estimate back in 2010.
Although quadruple the estimate would be more accurate.
On the contrary I remember them being furious at any suggestion that it would cost more than £30bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £50bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £80bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £100bn.
What are we at now ? Is it £120bn or have we now reached £150bn ?
The Oakervee review put the cost at £81 billion.
This was partly due to inflated land prices and partly due to higher speeds than the original proposal.
Inflated land prices ?
Does that translate as land tends to appreciate in value over a period of decades ?
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.
It's like you have not been paying attention.
There are always 'reasons' but the real reason is that the costs are always underestimated to get government approval - doubtless government is often complicit in this.
This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.
but it was the treasury that causes the problem that they were approving.
Your position makes no sense and simply suggests you've not remotely been paying attention!!!
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
As an observer of HS2 from day one
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Yes
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
The reason why they were wrong being the same why they are so often wrong on any big government scheme.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
But again, you are showing your ignorance as to the reasons for those increases.
It's like you have not been paying attention.
There are always 'reasons' but the real reason is that the costs are always underestimated to get government approval - doubtless government is often complicit in this.
This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.
That’s obviously part of it, but the key problem is that governments keep changing their minds and dithering endlessly.
So you have expensive alterations to make, when costs have increased.
It doesn’t reflect well on government or civil service, to be frank.
A tweet about the new skyscrapers planned for the City, making the cluster even more incredibly dense, and hiding the Gherkin (which is a shame).
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
My neighbour has just has his house valued at 2,650psf - for St John’s Wood that is just silly (I paid 1,580psf when I bought in 2016)
As well as pushing against Boris' Brexit in the 55% Remain area, the report also says the LDs are pushing a NIMBY agenda hard.
'In a letter to Tory by-election candidate Peter Fleet, Lib Dem MP Layla Moran urged him to condemn the government’s approach, writing: “Over the last two years the Conservative Party has received over £11m in donations from property developers.
“Local people are right to be angry at a Conservative Party that chooses to champion those who seek to build on the green belt rather than the views of local people in Chesham and Amersham.”
Clearly there has been a swing to the LDs there but the Tories should hold on unless the LDs can squeeze the Labour and Green vote to near zero
Isn’t HS2 likely to be an issue still as well? Especially given it’s finally under construction.
And Shapps just announced it is to go to Leeds
It is not going to be cancelled and they have started tunnelling in the Chilterns
That is good news, I hadn’t seen that. Although it looks as though they might be reducing the top speed a bit.
But I was thinking that the construction process itself will be disruptive and unpleasant. Lots of extra traffic, road closures, noise and pollution therefrom, etc.
Lines are never popular when being built (just look at how tough it was to build the original Grand Junction and Great Western mainlines, even including mustering private armies to confront recalcitrant companies).
It is really good news for the levelling up process and I agree there is going to be considerable disruption, indeed three years tunnelling under the Chilterns, but that is the price we have to pay to provide a modern high seed railway and at the same time allow the existing East and West coast mainlines to concentrate on more stopping services and services to local communities
It will do absolutely nothing for the levelling up process or the North South divide. Making it quicker to get from the Midlands to London does nothing to help employment or investment in the North. The EU knew this more than 20 years ago when they commissioned an in depth report into the effects of high speed rail links on the provinces, notably in France. All it did was draw more investment away from the regions into Paris.
I respectfully disagree
The East and West coast mainlines are at capacity and HS2 will enable far more local traffic and services
Furthermore, in the age of climate change we could follow France and ban all internal flights of less than 2 and a half hours as HS2 would be the perfect answer
not if you live in Scotland , as usual we pay for it and get zero benefit
It would reduce journey times from London to Glasgow by around an hour. Edinburgh, as the ECML is quite a bit faster than the WCML, is less impressive, saving half an hour.
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
Not sure how you figure that given that the trains won't go as far as Scotland and it would therefore need a change somewhere along the way to connect to the non HS system. It is unlikely that the delay caused by such a change will be less than the time saved using the HS2 to get to that point.
No you will not have to change.
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
To be fair, most of us don't have the faintest idea about most things.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
But I do not understand, I really do not understand how people can take such an opinionated position on something that they have so limited knowledge on.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
Because it’s much easier to deal with narratives that confirm our views rather than facts which undermine them.
Or in the case of ManchesterKurt it seems it is easier to just ignore the facts and keep pumping out the same unfounded claims.
In this case, Richard, I would point out it was your claims that were unfounded. You said that anyone travelling on HS2 would have to change to access the existing network. ManchesterKurt dismissed your claims - as did I, providing evidence.
Your further claim that there needs to be further investment in existing rail also doesn’t stack up, for two good reasons: (1) because a lot of that is already going in, albeit not in the quantities I would like to see and (2) because without addressing the severe congestion on the main railways there are strict limits to how much benefit such spending will have. There is no point in buying new trains or laying new track if you have to keep switching to other trains through lack of pathways, as you yourself noted.
The need for investment is in rail connections that HS2 does not serve. Not everyone needs to connect to London. Indeed if you really want to improve the transport infrastructure in the north then build new tracks across the country not up and down it.
HS2 will be a massive white elephant which will never achieve what is claimed for it in terms of regeneration and levelling up (which is where this discussion started). It is £100 billion we could have spent far more wisely on real improvements in the North.
Comments
If it is ultimately extended to Glasgow (as it should be) or even Carlisle those times become still quicker.
All the restaurants are full, and now the bars around me are noisy with life. YAY
HS2 was first announced 13 years ago and people with strong opinions on the matter still have not got the faintest idea about what is happening.
Glasgow and Edinburgh will get high speed trains from the day services reach Brum.
There’s a map here:
https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/glasgow/
Here it was that hubristic and truly ludicrous "Boris Blimp" in Hartlepool after the win. That it didn't look at all like him somehow only added to the cringe. I saw that and just one word flashed into my mind. PEAK. As it did for you.
And we're right. I'm sure of it. It will still be a labour of Hercules to beat him at the polls and get rid - but Johnson is in decline now.
And if that's true for people on PB.com, think how that extends beyond the population of politics geeks with time on their hands.
There's a reason that events don't cut through to the polls immediately, and most don't cut through at all.
The research seems to suggest:
1. Devolution of powers and tax base
2. Local / public transport infrastructure designed to reduce commuting times and enable a larger commuting catchment pool
3. Local skills development
4. Thriving local chamber of commerce with participation in local economic planning
5. Policies in support of industrial clustering; university/business partnerships; investment financing.
@Richard_Tyndall is correct that high speed rail etc tend to strengthen existing imbalances.
As an observer of HS2 from day one it is very very very apparent that those opposed to the scheme never ever bothered to take the time to really get to understand what and critically why it was getting built.
Those opposed were opposing something that was never planned and it was totally clear at every stage it would never be cancelled given the reasons for it happening have literally never been challenged, after 13 years.
If something really matters to you then why not take the time and effort to genuinely get to understand what and why it is being planned?
Don't get it.
Is there a single mayor anywhere on the planet who has ever campaigned for decent rail services to be axed to help improve their local economy and rebalance it ?
I’m in favour of HS2, just not as a “levelling up” measure.
Edit: yes, in a funny way blocking the M1 would reduce imbalances.
If it was just a high speed line operating in isolation, I would concede your point. But it isn’t. The key argument for HS2 has always been that it’s the easiest, cheapest and least disruptive way to increase capacity - and if we’re building a whole new line anyway, why not make it high speed?
It is also worthwhile my pointing out that the Tories aren’t doing any of the things I mention, although the ability of metros to run their own bus services will certainly help.
(The privatised patchwork of franchises has retarded economic growth by making it harder for commuters to get to jobs.)
Have you put them up to the Lib Dems? Serious question.
LDs losing here
"London's skyline will be almost unrecognisable by the mid-2020s. New renders released by the City of London Corporation show how a number of recently approved #skyscrapers will impact the City once constructed - https://bit.ly/3hiaCJL #construction #architecture #london"
https://twitter.com/TheB1M/status/1396915674325340166?s=20
Many more towers are being built around the capital. Huge housing estates have just got planning permission. The corpse of Debenham's Oxford Street is still warm and there is already a plan to demolish and redevelop it. Olympia is being revamped and they are building an exquisite and enormous new theatre
Is this insane, after Covid and Brexit? Or is London just unstoppable?
If we really want to level up it requires significant devolution and indeed devolution of significant spend, and its a generational project.
But it is possible. East Germany is now richer than the North of England.
It also requires going against 40 years of laissez faire in regional policy which, despite proven failure, still influences many on the right (freeports is a dim echo of this).
However with inflation bubbling up, this also makes me nerves.
https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/coronavirus/st-pauls-cathedral-rotting-risks-closure-financial-crisis/
It’s an abortion.
Infrastructure supports economic development; trains are not supposed to be about wealth redistribution.
The problem for the opposition is that this threatens to be 2015 redux where the majorities in safe Tory seats are pared away somewhat but they gain in what are the new marginals in the red wall improving the efficiency of their vote yet further. Eventually that paring will start to cost them seats but probably not this seat and probably not to the Lib Dems who are not in a good place.
Until material numbers of seats are being lost in the south east and south west the Tories threaten to be in an optimal position just as Blair was in his pomp. They are unlikely to come close to matching his efficiency, which was truly remarkable, but it looks plenty enough for a comfortable majority next time out.
The Cyprus election results are pretty much all done;
http://live.elections.moi.gov.cy/Greek/PARLIAMENTARY_ELECTIONS_2021/Islandwide
DISY - Democratic Rally: 27.8% (-2.9)
AKEL - Progressive Party of Working People:: 22.2% (-3.5)
DIKO - Democratic Party: 11.3% (-1.2)
ELAM - National Popular Front: 6.8% (+3.1)
EDEK/SYPOL - Movement for Social Democracy/Citizens Alliance: 6.7% (-5.5)
DIPA - Democratic Alignment: 6.1% (+6.1)
KOSP - Movement of Ecologists: 4.5% (-0.3)
KEKK - Active Citizens/Movement of Cypriot Hunters 3.3 (+3.3)
AG - Generation Change 2.8% (+2.8)
KA - Solidarity Movement 2.3 (-3.0)
This seems to confirm the trend from 2016 of the old DISY/AKEL duopoly continuing to break down and it's now barely 50% between them (from 67% ten years ago). The big winners are the ultra-nationalist ELAM (which had past connections with the Golden Dawn movement in Greece) and new party DIPA, a split off from DIPO (not surprisingly).
DISY-EPP: 17 (-1)
AKEL-LEFT: 15 (-1)
DIKO-S&D: 9
ELAM~NI: 4 (+2)
EDEK|SYPOL-S&D|RE: 4 (+1)
DIPA-RE: 4 (new)
KOSP-G/EFA: 3 (+1)
Not a huge amount of change.
Edit: to be clear, by “neighbour” I mean he lives in the other half of my semi.
There has also, pre Covid, been talk of a new residential on River Street in Manchester to be 97 storeys and taller than the Shard. Won't happen.
That’s really a bit of a No Shit Sherlock statement...
My point is that Savills have come up with a silly valuation. It’s not real because it hasn’t transacted at that level. But it suggests the market is overheating in London if an experienced properly investor is willing to sell (he’s moving to the country and was going to keep it for the occasional night in London). He’s not short of capital.
Was that when HS2 was going to cost £30bn and be finished by 2030 ?
Betfair (sportsbook) might have allowed me only £1.25, but I'm chuffed to have a 40-1 winner tonight.
It also points out the irony that last December India immediately stopped travel from Britain because of the risks of the Kent variant.
Boris - Who Got Us Through Covid....
And yet, strangely, they all sold their land. At vastly inflated prices. I think ultimately the sum paid out was three times what was budgeted for.
Strangely, the railway cost almost exactly double the estimate - partly as a result (although Kilsby Tunnel played its part).
They also published since less than impressive constituency polls for the 2019 general election:
Which had the LibDems leading in Cambridge, Cambridgeshire South, Finchley and Portsmouth South.
There was rather the suspicion that the LibDems commission lots of small sample, high MOE constituency polls and then publish only the ones they like the look of.
My comment was more about the economics, however. Who will work in all these new offices? Who will live in all these new residential towers?
I've tried, really, I've tried. But no
And no doubt as someone interested in the scheme you are able to understand the reasons those early estimates were so far from the reality and so far from being problematic to the scheme proceeding.
Although quadruple the estimate would be more accurate.
On the contrary I remember them being furious at any suggestion that it would cost more than £30bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £50bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £80bn.
A few years later they got furious at any suggestion it would cost more than £100bn.
What are we at now ? Is it £120bn or have we now reached £150bn ?
I am not affected by HS2 and cannot see a reason to ever use it. My main concern is that lines like MML which I do use, will be starved of resources in order to pay for it.
They are deliberately underestimated and after approval is given they are steadily increased because governments almost never pull the plug.
This was partly due to inflated land prices and partly due to higher speeds than the original proposal.
The P95 cost when first published was mid £40bn's from memory.
That was based on a treasury assumption that HS2 could be delivered 20% cheaper per mile than HS1, with no evidence to back that up.
When the 20% saving failed to materialise the costs rose to ~£50bn (P95) where they stayed until about 2018/19 when the costs were raised to £86bn (P95) due to poor cost management / higher property costs than previously expected.
If Phase 2 has been approached as Phase 1 then the costs would have risen to £106bn (P95) hence the change to adopt the HS1 approach to design for phase 2 which leaves the P95 cost at £86bn (P95).
Which you all knew anyway.
It's like you have not been paying attention.
Possible reasons:
1) A yearning for the era of the Brunel and the Stephensons when Britain led the world in railway development.
2) A yearning for the era of the Flying Scotsman and Mallard when Britain led the world in fast trains.
3) Memories of Hornby railways of the above.
4) Envy of Japanese or French railways.
The Walkie Talkie arguably has the best views, over the Shard. Spectacular. Also, of course, you can't see the Walkie Talkie
Your further claim that there needs to be further investment in existing rail also doesn’t stack up, for two good reasons: (1) because a lot of that is already going in, albeit not in the quantities I would like to see and (2) because without addressing the severe congestion on the main railways there are strict limits to how much benefit such spending will have. There is no point in buying new trains or laying new track if you have to keep switching to other trains through lack of pathways, as you yourself noted.
Prestbury to Manc is 1 train per hour.
HS2 permits that to increase, or other services to increase their frequencies.
This happens not just in transport infrastructure but in defence spending, government IT systems etc.
Does that translate as land tends to appreciate in value over a period of decades ?
Your position makes no sense and simply suggests you've not remotely been paying attention!!!
So you have expensive alterations to make, when costs have increased.
It doesn’t reflect well on government or civil service, to be frank.
HS2 will be a massive white elephant which will never achieve what is claimed for it in terms of regeneration and levelling up (which is where this discussion started). It is £100 billion we could have spent far more wisely on real improvements in the North.