Not making the promised June 21 lockdown end is going to be controversial – politicalbetting.com

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

Gaza is not occupied. But at the same time, it's hardly free either.

Israel refuses to allow the airport to open, and therefore pretty much all people wishing to go to Gaza are forced to go through Israel.

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

Northern_Al said:

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Endillion said:

kinabalu said:

Endillion said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

.

kinabalu said:

beentheredonethat said:

kinabalu said:

beentheredonethat said:

Regarding the Luton march. Am I alone in wondering why the fuck people are protesting in this country about the relations between two other countries?

No you won't be alone. There are a number of other ultra-parochials on here.

I don’t consider myself parochial at all. Indeed, in a previous employment I worked across the world. Sometimes mediating in international troublespots. I have lived in several other countries. Nothing about me is parochial.

I simply do not see why (presumably) U.K. citizens feel the need to bring foreign wars (for this is a war) to our country.

We have tons of protests here about bad stuff going on elsewhere. And many people see this more as a systematic oppression (akin to apartheid) rather than simply another foreign war.

You just don't like the cause, that's all. Which is fair enough, but that's a different argument.

How is it "a more systematic oppression (akin to apartheid)" than what is happening to the Kurds? Or the Uighur? Or the Tibetans? Or many more?

I'm not saying it's worse than other atrocities. I'm not doing a finely calibrated rating of one against the other.

And there's something else I don't do. When there happens to be a protest in the UK against something happening elsewhere I don't leap in and say either of the following -

That the people who feel strongly enough to join the protest have questions to answer if they are not also in the habit of protesting all and sundry other issues.

That a protest in the UK is inappropriate because it relates to things happening outside the UK.

What you're doing is imputing bad faith to a protest purely because you don't like the cause. It's no different to the negative stuff that gets said about BLM - although not by you in that case since there you DO like the cause.

You're the one who used the words "a more systematic oppression (akin to apartheid)" so I think its fair to ask how that applies.

Just because people are protesting doesn't justify their protest. If people are protesting because they dislike oppression a la Kurds, Tibet, Uighur and Palestine etc consistently then I respect that.

If people are protesting because they dislike Jews, then that's no better than an EDL one.

I sense you get my point. Good.

No I don't get your point. You seem to want to justify this, without justifying it, because you know its unjustifiable.

Please can you say how it is "a more systematic oppression (akin to apartheid)", or please can you say that it isn't and those words were inappropriate?

Ah ok. Just the once more then. I have a few minutes.

Assume there are 26 different atrocities going on in the world outside the UK - one for every letter of the alphabet, A to Z. And there's a protest going on in London about one of them. About M.

So now a common technique adopted by people who dislike and disagree with the protesters (against M) is to say the following -

"How come these people are not protesting against A thru L, and N thru Z? They're hypocrites!"

This is what you're doing here. Where M = Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.

Compare with if there were a protest where M = the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs.

Would you in that case be employing the "why aren't they protesting against A thru L, and N thru Z?" technique?

I sense not.

whataboutery is what you are looking for.

Yes. Whataboutery to discredit a protest. That seems to be what's happening in places.

No, that's not it. The protestors will most likely discredit themselves, based on past performance, and if they didn't then there wouldn't be a problem.

It's just that I (and, thankfully, it seems, most sane people here) would prefer they weren't given the opportunity in the first place.

What, you'd ban a protest in case there was unlawful behaviour?

Hell yes.

More specifically, I'd ban protests where history has proven that the "protestors" are using their supposed cause as a front to commit unlawful behaviour.

Again, ask yourself why you are so keen to preserve this right to protest over the right of others not to be racially abused.

Surely outside the script of Minority Report you prosecute a crime after the event. The only exception to this that comes to mind is where there is hard evidence of people specifically plotting a crime.

And I wouldn't say I am keen to treat a pro-Palestine protest any different to others. What makes you think that?

"fuck the jews, rape their women, free palestine".

You keep quoting this, not sure why. It's grotesquely unpleasant, and arrests have been made. If it was widespread, I'd expect more arrests to be made. But do you have any evidence that this was a common refrain among the demonstrators? At almost any demo, whether it be Free Palestine, BLM or EDL you will get a fringe advocating violence. The law should deal with them, and allow peaceful protestors to make their case in a free society.

That is true. But very few of the demonstrations are calling for a two state solution. From the River to the Sea Palestine shall be free.

What would jews make of that?

Plus check out the flags.

Israel seems to have abandoned the 2 state solution in recent times.

Yes it does seem so. "Facts on the ground" have taken precedence.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

Gaza is not occupied. But at the same time, it's hardly free either.

Israel refuses to allow the airport to open, and therefore pretty much all people wishing to go to Gaza are forced to go through Israel.

Leon said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

Glitching equipment are infinitely more likely than the laws of physics are being broken by extraterrestrials.

Do you not think the US military, the most advanced on the planet, would notice if all their machines were on the fritz, and on the fritz in a very particular way: with their radars reproducing phenomena simultaneously recorded by infra-red sensors and many human eye-witnesses?

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

Glitching equipment are infinitely more likely than the laws of physics are being broken by extraterrestrials.

Philip_Thompson said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

The problems stem from 1948 when both sides were intent on not all getting along and living together. Hard to single Hamas out for that particular criticism.

Israel accepted the 1948 borders though at the time.

The fault from 1948 lies 100% with the ones who chose to wipe out the Israelis from sea to sea, not the party that accepted the borders. 😕

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

The problems stem from 1948 when both sides were intent on not all getting along and living together. Hard to single Hamas out for that particular criticism.

Israel accepted the 1948 borders though at the time.

The fault from 1948 lies 100% with the ones who chose to wipe out the Israelis from sea to sea, not the party that accepted the borders. 😕

First rule of any commentary on the Middle East: any post that attributes the blame solely to one side, however well evidenced or reasoned, is simply biased and best ignored.

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

I loathe Hamas.

Their stated aim is no less than Hitler's: i.e. to wipe the Jews off the face of the planet. They take money from some of the vilest regimes on earth and use it to reign terror on a (broadly) democratic state.

But they are also - for the vast majority of Palestinians - the only group fighting against Israeli occupation.

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

Glitching equipment are infinitely more likely than the laws of physics are being broken by extraterrestrials.

As I said there is so much that is apparently inexplicable around from quantum theory to caterpillars turning into butteflies to nudibranches to unexplained lights in the sky.

Just part of our mad, mad world. Not someone else's world.

IshmaelZ said:

kinabalu said:

algarkirk said:

kinabalu said:

algarkirk said:

All single issue fanatics do something like this:

1 Yes indeed there are evils in the world.

2 I am going to focus on one of them and claim your attention and demand your support.

3 Every reference to every other evil in the world when I am talking to you is whatabouttery.

4 Every other evil in the world is somehow arguable, discussable and relates to other evils in the world and I am not talking about it so shut up and educate yourself.

Recent nice example: BLM in relation to the quality of governance in black led countries in sub Saharan Africa.

So somebody reacting to the BLM protests against racism in America with "but what about governance in sub Saharan Africa?" - that's valid critique in your book, is it?

Thanks for the question. See above.

What, so you DO see "But what about governance in sub Saharan Africa?" as a perfectly valid reaction to protests against racist policing in America?

Surprised if that's the case. And apols if I've misread your slightly gnomic response.

My view is this: I do not support or condone the murder of blacks in America, segregated public transport in South Africa or the shelling of Gaza. If you feel strongly about it do something courageous and relevant: Rob a bank, use the proceeds to fly to Philadelphia or Joburg or Jerusalem and punch a policeman and go to prison. What use is risk free virtue signalling in an uninvolved third country?

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

Glitching equipment are infinitely more likely than the laws of physics are being broken by extraterrestrials.

As I said there is so much that is apparently inexplicable around from quantum theory to caterpillars turning into butteflies to nudibranches to unexplained lights in the sky.

Just part of our mad, mad world. Not someone else's world.

Except: we don't know that

Moreover, American politicians and defence boffins, and military pundits, are much more exercized than you and Ishmael, and they are much closer to the evidence, and the narrative


"John Brennan, Obama’s CIA director (and, importantly, a fierce Ratcliffe critic), went even further, openly speculating that the objects might “constitute a different form of life.”

"Make no mistake: Former high-ranking intelligence officials do not make such extraordinary statements without some analytic backing. That Brennan and Ratcliffe reside on entirely opposite ends of the political spectrum is all the more remarkable.

"Obama, for his part, is not prone to making wild or unsubstantiated statements. To that end, these officials offer some valuable insights into how the U.S. government assesses these baffling incidents"

And

"Given the monumental implications of these increasingly plausible explanations, Congress must heed Elizondo’s call to include academia and the broader scientific community in a “fair-minded, purposeful, deliberate scientific approach” to investigating these incidents. The stakes are simply too great to ignore them."

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/555761-extraordinary-explanations-for-ufos-look-increasingly-plausible

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

Gaza is not occupied. But at the same time, it's hardly free either.

Israel refuses to allow the airport to open, and therefore pretty much all people wishing to go to Gaza are forced to go through Israel.

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

I have always accepted that a minority of ufo sightings were genuinely inexplicable. But I am still relatively unexcited about it: I find it easier to accept (unexplained and fascinating) phenomena that make radar look as if the laws of physics are being broken, than the actual breaking of the laws.

Glitching equipment are infinitely more likely than the laws of physics are being broken by extraterrestrials.

As I said there is so much that is apparently inexplicable around from quantum theory to caterpillars turning into butteflies to nudibranches to unexplained lights in the sky.

Just part of our mad, mad world. Not someone else's world.

Except: we don't know that

Moreover, American politicians and defence boffins, and military pundits, are much more exercized than you and Ishmael, and they are much closer to the evidence, and the narrative


"John Brennan, Obama’s CIA director (and, importantly, a fierce Ratcliffe critic), went even further, openly speculating that the objects might “constitute a different form of life.”

"Make no mistake: Former high-ranking intelligence officials do not make such extraordinary statements without some analytic backing. That Brennan and Ratcliffe reside on entirely opposite ends of the political spectrum is all the more remarkable.

"Obama, for his part, is not prone to making wild or unsubstantiated statements. To that end, these officials offer some valuable insights into how the U.S. government assesses these baffling incidents"

And

"Given the monumental implications of these increasingly plausible explanations, Congress must heed Elizondo’s call to include academia and the broader scientific community in a “fair-minded, purposeful, deliberate scientific approach” to investigating these incidents. The stakes are simply too great to ignore them."

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/555761-extraordinary-explanations-for-ufos-look-increasingly-plausible

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

I loathe Hamas.

Their stated aim is no less than Hitler's: i.e. to wipe the Jews off the face of the planet. They take money from some of the vilest regimes on earth and use it to reign terror on a (broadly) democratic state.

But they are also - for the vast majority of Palestinians - the only group fighting against Israeli occupation.

You too. Answer the question. Israel withdrew from Gaza. A great opportunity for the palestinians to show themselves people you could do business with. Why didn't they seize that opportunity?

The Palestinians in Gaza have behaved appallingly.

And Israel is right to defend themsevle against attacks from Gaza. If I was Israel, I'd send 100 rockets into Gaza for every one that came in.

But one group of people behaving badly doesn't mean that everyone who shares their nationality loses all their rights. If the ANC planted bombs in South Africa, would that mean blacks should be denied the vote until they give up their campaign of violence? It's collective punishment: you are being treated this way, because some other people in another place, who you don't control, have behaved in a certain way.

Endillion said:

TOPPING said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

I just googled and see that yes indeed there seems to be a majority public opinion for a two state solution. What is Bibi's view? Just let it peter out? What is the official position?

Officially, the two state solution is dead until the Palestinian leadership accepts Israel's right to exist.

In other words, it's dead.

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

I suppose a question to ask is why didn't Hamas give the let's all get along strategy a go in Gaza.

As I understand it they never did.

I think that is informing to a large extent the Israeli response.

I loathe Hamas.

Their stated aim is no less than Hitler's: i.e. to wipe the Jews off the face of the planet. They take money from some of the vilest regimes on earth and use it to reign terror on a (broadly) democratic state.

But they are also - for the vast majority of Palestinians - the only group fighting against Israeli occupation.

You too. Answer the question. Israel withdrew from Gaza. A great opportunity for the palestinians to show themselves people you could do business with. Why didn't they seize that opportunity?

The Palestinians in Gaza have behaved appallingly.

And Israel is right to defend themsevle against attacks from Gaza. If I was Israel, I'd send 100 rockets into Gaza for every one that came in.

But one group of people behaving badly doesn't mean that everyone who shares their nationality loses all their rights. If the ANC planted bombs in South Africa, would that mean blacks should be denied the vote until they give up their campaign of violence? It's collective punishment: you are being treated this way, because some other people in another place, who you don't control, have behaved in a certain way.

dixiedean said:

2 hour Dylan special on Radio 6 now.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

Gaza is not occupied. But at the same time, it's hardly free either.

Israel refuses to allow the airport to open, and therefore pretty much all people wishing to go to Gaza are forced to go through Israel.

dixiedean said:

2 hour Dylan special on Radio 6 now.

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

Why do aliens always select the New Mexico desert or Thetford Forest as their gateway to Planet Earth?

JohnLilburne said:

Leon said:

This is good

"The overall case fatality rate of the Indian variant is just 0.2 per cent, compared to two per cent for the Kent variant, new data shows."

And this:

"She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that hospitals were seeing people who were far less sick than previous Covid patients. "In terms of how ill they're getting, I think the vaccine definitely seems to be working," she said.

"We are not seeing, certainly, many people as sick as we would have done pre-vaccine. Certainly the picture in hospital is much better than previous times when we've been at this position.""

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/28/two-people-have-died-indian-variant-full-vaccination/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

I do wonder that, with plenty of capacity, we are actually hospitalising people who are not that ill, and who in the first wave would have been left at home to fend for themselves.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Endillion said:

rcs1000 said:

On the subject of Palestine and Israel, it seems one can support Israel's right to exist, and to actively defend itself against external attacks, but also be horrified by the continued and creeping annexation of Israel's neighbours via settlements, and the willingness of many (otherwise perfectly sensible) people to defend Israel's creation of an apartheid state in Palestine.

And it seems that the two sides seem very unwilling to even acknowledge these issues. Supporters of Palestine reply with Whatabout... While supporters of Israel do the same.

The other side's intransigence allows one to avoid absolutely all consideration of whether one's own side is behaving morally.

There remains a fundament question that needs to be settled: are the West Bank and Gaza part of Israel or not?

If they are, then those people that were born and live there are Israeli citizens, and need to be given the same rights as every other Israeli citizen.

If they are not, then Israelis have no right to settle in Palestine, and the Palestinians have the same rights of self governance as anyone else.

Which is it, boys?

I don't agree, at all. There's a clear majority in Israel in support of a two/three state solution in principle. The problem is finding a negotiation partner who is willing and able to guarantee the safety of Israel's borders following any such deal. Abbas and the PLO aren't able, and Hamas aren't willing.

There is also a host of intermediary problems to clear first, starting with: how do you resolve the fact that Gaza and the West Bank can't be part of the same contiguous state without dividing Israel into two instead? That alone is enough to nix the initial negotiations, even before you get to the really thorny questions like how what you do with East Jerusalem, and continuing Jewish access to sites like Hebron.

If I were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories, I would support Hamas.

Obviously.

Because I would have an Israeli occupying force in my country. Pushing other Palestinians off the land with guns.

Why wouldn't you support the one group willing to fight back and inflict pain on the people who are inflicting pain on you?

Put your empathy cap on for a second, and ask who you'd support if you were a Palestinian? You'd be throwing rocks at Israeli military vehicles, not hoping they would deign to offer you something in the future.

Irrespective of your views regarding the Israeli public, the reality is that Israeli government policy is to give monetary subsidies and military support to those who wish to settle in the occupied territories.

How is Gaza being occupied? There's no troops and no settlements in Gaza.

Gaza is not occupied. But at the same time, it's hardly free either.

Israel refuses to allow the airport to open, and therefore pretty much all people wishing to go to Gaza are forced to go through Israel.

williamglenn said:

dixiedean said:

2 hour Dylan special on Radio 6 now.

Are you sure it’s not a Dilyn special?

gealbhan said:

IshmaelZ said:

gealbhan said:

IshmaelZ said:

gealbhan said:

BigRich said:

HYUFD said:

41% of voters support decriminalisation of marijuana, 36% opposed.

Tory voters opposed 49% to 29%, Labour voters in favour 51% to 30%

https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1398298020882661387?s=20

No comparison with when it was last asked, but it seems to be getting moor popular, (which I think is a good thing)

I suspect that if Boris came out in favour of legalising, then a lot of his supporters would follow, and it would be very popular overall.

Embarrassing.

There is nothing at all in the column that says good idea, the bad idea column needs extra pages.

What on earth has anyone got in the good idea column other than they are mouth dribbling libertarian minded children who don’t like being told what they can or cannot do?

Are you in favour of people being told what they can and cannot do?

Yes! Otherwise it’s anarchy. Anarchy in the UK. Is that what you want, because that is what will happen.

Although cannabis may have some medical uses in strictly controlled circumstances, smoking it or munching on space cakes is simply not good for you. Opium poppy derivatives have medical uses, but that doesn’t make heroin healthy. It’s called Dope for a reason – bad for your brain, bad for your lungs, bad for your heart, bad for agitating or instigating mental health problems like schizophrenia and depression, terrible risk if you plan to do anything like a car or machinery. And it creates crime and injury from crime. The more people feeling they can do it because it’s decriminalised, the more crime and disorder there will be.

You have anything in “it’s a great idea” column that merely counterbalances all those facts and truths?

I like it, it has neither done me any harm nor caused me to harm anyone else, and I seriously dispute your qualifications to tell me what is good for me.

I am the most suited person to tell you the road you should be on, and help you to think again, my child.

Let me tell you where your reasoning has gone wrong, and use the PB community as example.

Fork in the road, PB community goes down the road of legalising dope, bad for their brain, bad for their lungs, bad for their heart, bad for agitating or instigating mental health problems like schizophrenia and depression. All those things will go up amongst the beautiful people posting here. More accidents from using cars and machinery. More posters committing crime and disorder, and in doing so hurting others, perfectly beautiful and innocent people.

Alternatively, follow lead of TSE, which looking at polling shows the sanity resides with the conservatives just like him, go on the cross trainer or bike as alternative to doing dope, lose some weight. Sit under a tree or take a walk in nature, and meditate, or better use the time doing a good deed for someone, such as bit of pastoral care and lifting their mental well being?

We have been put on this earth to build our resilience, not our dependence’s.

Can you see the error of your ways now? Your greedy selfish, thoughtless, destructive ways and psychologies

Mexicanpete said:

Carnyx said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

Why do aliens always select the New Mexico desert or Thetford Forest as their gateway to Planet Earth?

Ley lines?

Banjo playing yokels?

Leon said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

Why do aliens always select the New Mexico desert or Thetford Forest as their gateway to Planet Earth?

They don’t. Many famous cases elsewhere. France, Belgium, Italy. Brazil. China. Or Iran - see below

RochdalePioneers said:

The stated aim of Hamas is to destroy Israel. So to blame Israel for its treatment of missile-lobbing terrorists pledged to its destruction is absurd. The PA hasn't held elections for 15 years leaving the terrorists in charge. With whom is Israel supposed to unilaterally negotiate? And to make compromises with those pledged to wipe them off the map?

Yes the Israeli government is spectacularly bad, led by a lunatic criminal, influenced by invading settlers occupying ever-greater chunks of the West Bank. Any peace deal will logically pull these settlers back out. But it will have to come from the outside.

Israel AND Palestine deserve peace and security. Neither can have it because of Hamas and because of the arab diaspora who have refused settlement to 4th generation "refugees" in former Palestinian land in what is now Jordan. So when I see leftie wazzocks banging on about Palestine, I see racists supporting terrorism.

Foxy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

moonshine said:

Mexicanpete said:

Leon said:

IshmaelZ said:

Leon said:

Absolutely mind-boggling UFO news clip from NBC. They are taking this very seriously in America

"The world is getting a glimpse at leaked military radar readings showing possible UFO activity near a Navy warship off the coast of California.
@GadiNBC has more"

https://twitter.com/TODAYshow/status/1398262582599815172?s=20

I have no independent way of knowing how boggled to be; not difficult to film a space invaders screen while having people off camera saying Holy shit dude in American accents. I agree with you that the US authorities can't explain this stuff, but all that's happening is that they have stopped pretending nothing is happening, when we knew something was happening all along anyway. So how much further forward will we actually be?

Did we really "know" something was happening "all along anyway"? Did we *know* that we were being buzzed by inexplicable aircraft that can apparently bend - or smash - the laws of physics?!

I never got that memo. Maybe that's why I'm fascinated

Why do aliens always select the New Mexico desert or Thetford Forest as their gateway to Planet Earth?

Long ago released Ussr files indicated that approx 2/3rds of ufo events documented by the military occurred over open water (oceans or lakes). The US military is apparently finding something similar.

So UFOs are here and have been for half a century or more but not revealed themselves?

Or something in the water could be interfering with equipment?

Or could it be that 2/3 of the worlds surface is water 🤔

WhisperingOracle said:

It's not impossible, ofcourse, that somewhere on earth there are scientists more sophisticated than those working in the US, despite its huge lead. China is incredibly good at secrecy, for instance.

RobD said:

WhisperingOracle said:

It's not impossible, ofcourse, that somewhere on earth there are scientists more sophisticated than those working in the US, despite its huge lead. China is incredibly good at secrecy, for instance.

Or, more ominously, that some parts of the US government don’t know what other parts are doing.

Foxy said:

JohnLilburne said:

Leon said:

This is good

"The overall case fatality rate of the Indian variant is just 0.2 per cent, compared to two per cent for the Kent variant, new data shows."

And this:

"She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that hospitals were seeing people who were far less sick than previous Covid patients. "In terms of how ill they're getting, I think the vaccine definitely seems to be working," she said.

"We are not seeing, certainly, many people as sick as we would have done pre-vaccine. Certainly the picture in hospital is much better than previous times when we've been at this position.""

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/28/two-people-have-died-indian-variant-full-vaccination/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

I do wonder that, with plenty of capacity, we are actually hospitalising people who are not that ill, and who in the first wave would have been left at home to fend for themselves.

I think in the first wave far too many were instructed to stay home on the hot broth treatment, and only presented late, in poor condition.