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Two highlights from this morning – HealthSec Hancock the main target – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,555
edited May 2021 in General
Two highlights from this morning – HealthSec Hancock the main target – politicalbetting.com

I must admit I am struggling to recall a political attack quite like this; personal, brutal, relentless. https://t.co/cm8cHY1GW2

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,130
    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,637
    FPT
    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Leon, Sturgeon being an idiot is no reason to destroy a nation.

    Devolution is a disaster. Especially the botched, stupid, asymmetric devolution given us by Labour. Boris is right

    Anecdote: at my last large family gathering I was struck by the family members who were seriously anti-union and anti-Scottish. They used to be apathetic, now they are averse. Let Scotland go. Cut them away. This is a growing feeling in England. It will be England that ends the Union, if it ends

    My family is not alone

    ‘MICHAEL Gove has been warned by a Tory MP that the Union could end through "benign neglect" as voters in England give up on it just as they did with the EU.

    The Cabinet Office minister was told by Jackie Doyle-Price that her constituents in Thurrock in Essex now griped about Scotland they way they used to about Brussels.

    She said for many people in England the Union was not a “living entity”and urged UK ministers to do more to help people understand and appreciate it.’

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19318323.michael-gove-warned-union-fall-apart-throuhg-benign-neglec/
    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    I remmeber a particularly interesting and illuminating discussion on PB about 2012-13 which came to an almost unanimous conclusion (quite unusual for that time and general topic of indyref) that true federalism was a non-runner in the UK because of precisely what you say, plus the political unacceptability of breaking up England a la Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy.

    This is one reason why Gordon Brown's repeated Interventions with promises of more federalism have not, er, had much effect.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,587
    edited May 2021
    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Leon, Sturgeon being an idiot is no reason to destroy a nation.

    Devolution is a disaster. Especially the botched, stupid, asymmetric devolution given us by Labour. Boris is right

    Anecdote: at my last large family gathering I was struck by the family members who were seriously anti-union and anti-Scottish. They used to be apathetic, now they are averse. Let Scotland go. Cut them away. This is a growing feeling in England. It will be England that ends the Union, if it ends

    My family is not alone

    ‘MICHAEL Gove has been warned by a Tory MP that the Union could end through "benign neglect" as voters in England give up on it just as they did with the EU.

    The Cabinet Office minister was told by Jackie Doyle-Price that her constituents in Thurrock in Essex now griped about Scotland they way they used to about Brussels.

    She said for many people in England the Union was not a “living entity”and urged UK ministers to do more to help people understand and appreciate it.’

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19318323.michael-gove-warned-union-fall-apart-throuhg-benign-neglec/
    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    I remmeber a particularly interesting and illuminating discussion on PB about 2012-13 which came to an almost unanimous conclusion (quite unusual for that time and general topic of indyref) that true federalism was a non-runner in the UK because of precisely what you say, plus the political unacceptability of breaking up England a la Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy.

    This is one reason why Gordon Brown's repeated Interventions with promises of more federalism have not, er, had much effect.
    Which is rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations from India to Germany, Australia and Canada are Federations.

    The only reason the left don't want an English Parliament is it would normally have a Tory majority that is all, then we could have true Federalism with no need to break up England into regions.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,637
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Cummings proposed approach for test and trace again comes from if I ruled the world, I would do x, and everybody would just have to follow along...without considering that a) many powerful voices would rally against it, b) many powerful companies would rally against it and c) absolutely no guarantee the people wouldn't rally against it and d) the practical aspect of it.

    He makes it sound like it would be a piece of piss to just look back all the info of somebody who has tested positive. If it was that easy, the security services could track the few 1000 radical Islamists while sitting on their arses playing video games all day....not struggling to even keep track of a small percentage of those people and unfortunately from time to time one slipping through the net.

    Given how centralised the UK is by most states' standards, is that so unreasonable of Mr Cummings to use the 'If I ruled the world' line of thought? Especially given whom he worked for.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,297
    Dawn Butler proving the civil servant / certain type of politician mindset...but but but you asked for help from these tech companies, booooooo....those would be the ones staffed by mega brains and massive technological resources.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,587
    Most of Cummings' evidence a hatchet job on Hancock rather than really adding much beyond that
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,637
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Leon, Sturgeon being an idiot is no reason to destroy a nation.

    Devolution is a disaster. Especially the botched, stupid, asymmetric devolution given us by Labour. Boris is right

    Anecdote: at my last large family gathering I was struck by the family members who were seriously anti-union and anti-Scottish. They used to be apathetic, now they are averse. Let Scotland go. Cut them away. This is a growing feeling in England. It will be England that ends the Union, if it ends

    My family is not alone

    ‘MICHAEL Gove has been warned by a Tory MP that the Union could end through "benign neglect" as voters in England give up on it just as they did with the EU.

    The Cabinet Office minister was told by Jackie Doyle-Price that her constituents in Thurrock in Essex now griped about Scotland they way they used to about Brussels.

    She said for many people in England the Union was not a “living entity”and urged UK ministers to do more to help people understand and appreciate it.’

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19318323.michael-gove-warned-union-fall-apart-throuhg-benign-neglec/
    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    I remmeber a particularly interesting and illuminating discussion on PB about 2012-13 which came to an almost unanimous conclusion (quite unusual for that time and general topic of indyref) that true federalism was a non-runner in the UK because of precisely what you say, plus the political unacceptability of breaking up England a la Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy.

    This is one reason why Gordon Brown's repeated Interventions with promises of more federalism have not, er, had much effect.
    Which is rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations from India to Germany, Australia and Canada are Federations.

    The only reason the left don't want an English Parliament is it would normally have a Tory majority that is all
    In that, you are going against the collective wisdom of PB. Just saying.

    The other reason for the UK never being a federation is that the central parliament would have to give up - not merely temporarily devolve - powers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,297
    HYUFD said:

    Most of Cummings' evidence a hatchet job on Hancock rather than really adding much beyond that

    Rather different to his briefing to the dead tree press.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,542
    Dominic Cummings has achieved the unexpected feat of making me side with Matt Hancock.
    While I have faith neither in Hancock's competence nor his chosen strategies, he has worked unbelievably hard this past year. Rarely in peacetime can a politician have appeared so tired for so long. Under these circumstances, I'd like to see him kicked a little less viciously.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,297
    edited May 2021
    Cookie said:

    Dominic Cummings has achieved the unexpected feat of making me side with Matt Hancock.
    While I have faith neither in Hancock's competence nor his chosen strategies, he has worked unbelievably hard this past year. Rarely in peacetime can a politician have appeared so tired for so long. Under these circumstances, I'd like to see him kicked a little less viciously.

    I think he was very poor to start with, but has improved. Lots of very good decisions in the past 6-9 months, not just the vaccine task force. The NHS react trials, the genome sequencing / surveillance, the real ramping up of the testing capacity.

    The big black marks are the initial reaction, especially to testing (which I think he got lead by the likes of PHE that said its just not possible to do that many tests)...and hiring Harding to head up the trace element while also over-promising just what was possible with that.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    I find Dom's choice of examples strange

    "There are numerous examples. I mean in the summer he said that everybody who needed treatment got the treatment that they required.

    He knew that that was a lie because he had been briefed by the chief scientific adviser and the chief medical officer himself about the first peak, and we were told explicitly people did not get the treatment they deserved, many people were left to die in horrific circumstances."

    I mean, with respect, the NHS doesn't give patients the treatment they deserve in before or indeed surely after COVID. Hancock's statement was, and is, meaningless and I'm surprised it's Dom's choice of target.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,637
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Leon, Sturgeon being an idiot is no reason to destroy a nation.

    Devolution is a disaster. Especially the botched, stupid, asymmetric devolution given us by Labour. Boris is right

    Anecdote: at my last large family gathering I was struck by the family members who were seriously anti-union and anti-Scottish. They used to be apathetic, now they are averse. Let Scotland go. Cut them away. This is a growing feeling in England. It will be England that ends the Union, if it ends

    My family is not alone

    ‘MICHAEL Gove has been warned by a Tory MP that the Union could end through "benign neglect" as voters in England give up on it just as they did with the EU.

    The Cabinet Office minister was told by Jackie Doyle-Price that her constituents in Thurrock in Essex now griped about Scotland they way they used to about Brussels.

    She said for many people in England the Union was not a “living entity”and urged UK ministers to do more to help people understand and appreciate it.’

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19318323.michael-gove-warned-union-fall-apart-throuhg-benign-neglec/
    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    I remmeber a particularly interesting and illuminating discussion on PB about 2012-13 which came to an almost unanimous conclusion (quite unusual for that time and general topic of indyref) that true federalism was a non-runner in the UK because of precisely what you say, plus the political unacceptability of breaking up England a la Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy.

    This is one reason why Gordon Brown's repeated Interventions with promises of more federalism have not, er, had much effect.
    Which is rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations from India to Germany, Australia and Canada are Federations.

    The only reason the left don't want an English Parliament is it would normally have a Tory majority that is all, then we could have true Federalism with no need to break up England into regions.
    Also - you haven't addressed the problem of a federation with 1 member comprising 85% (or whatever it is) of the population of the total. Which is the key issue at hand.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,587
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    FPT

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    kingbongo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Leon, Sturgeon being an idiot is no reason to destroy a nation.

    Devolution is a disaster. Especially the botched, stupid, asymmetric devolution given us by Labour. Boris is right

    Anecdote: at my last large family gathering I was struck by the family members who were seriously anti-union and anti-Scottish. They used to be apathetic, now they are averse. Let Scotland go. Cut them away. This is a growing feeling in England. It will be England that ends the Union, if it ends

    My family is not alone

    ‘MICHAEL Gove has been warned by a Tory MP that the Union could end through "benign neglect" as voters in England give up on it just as they did with the EU.

    The Cabinet Office minister was told by Jackie Doyle-Price that her constituents in Thurrock in Essex now griped about Scotland they way they used to about Brussels.

    She said for many people in England the Union was not a “living entity”and urged UK ministers to do more to help people understand and appreciate it.’

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19318323.michael-gove-warned-union-fall-apart-throuhg-benign-neglec/
    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    I remmeber a particularly interesting and illuminating discussion on PB about 2012-13 which came to an almost unanimous conclusion (quite unusual for that time and general topic of indyref) that true federalism was a non-runner in the UK because of precisely what you say, plus the political unacceptability of breaking up England a la Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy.

    This is one reason why Gordon Brown's repeated Interventions with promises of more federalism have not, er, had much effect.
    Which is rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations from India to Germany, Australia and Canada are Federations.

    The only reason the left don't want an English Parliament is it would normally have a Tory majority that is all, then we could have true Federalism with no need to break up England into regions.
    Also - you haven't addressed the problem of a federation with 1 member comprising 85% (or whatever it is) of the population of the total. Which is the key issue at hand.
    It does not matter. It would make no difference to Scotland or Wales or NI if England has its own Parliament as their own Parliaments would still decide most of their domestic policy. It would just ensure we have a genuine Federal UK and Westminster is the truly UK Parliament for everything not an English Parliament too.

    Plus Ontario for example is by far the largest province of Canada and Federalism works fine there
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,946
    Hancock cost lives by holding back tests earlier in the month so they could be released all in one day at the end of the month in order to meet his "stupid target"

    Copyright BJO April 2020

    Usual pile on from PB Tories

    Cummings confirms it to be the case 26.5.21
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    gealbhan said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sympathies to government supporters defending this shower on PB today.

    Will CCHQ circle the wagons to defend Matt Hancock?
    I expect his appearance before this committee in two weeks and their report in late June will decide his fate
    He is safe as houses. Just ignore all this, it will be gone in a week.

    Much more serious for Hancock and Boris, they should have learnt from Welsh Government about how to run a vaccination programme more effectively.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wc4t
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    bigjohnowls said:

    Hancock cost lives by holding back tests earlier in the month so they could be released all in one day at the end of the month in order to meet his "stupid target"

    Copyright BJO April 2020

    Usual pile on from PB Tories

    Cummings confirms it to be the case 26.5.21

    so what you're saying BJO is that if Cummings says it, it must be true?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited May 2021
    bigjohnowls said:

    Hancock cost lives by holding back tests earlier in the month so they could be released all in one day at the end of the month in order to meet his "stupid target"

    Copyright BJO April 2020

    Usual pile on from PB Tories

    Cummings confirms it to be the case 26.5.21

    If the target could have been met earlier it would have been hailed as fantastic achievement.

    As it looked clear it would never be met on time, ways of fiddling were introduced such as mailing out test kits counted as tests done.
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    HYUFD said:

    Most of Cummings' evidence a hatchet job on Hancock rather than really adding much beyond that

    Apart from the Hancock family - would anyone miss him if he was sacked ?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,644
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    12m
    Is it me, or are all of Dom's mates in Government brilliant, but everyone else is a bit rubbish.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,130
    edited May 2021
    edit
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Yes, behind the flood of specific allegations there is the general picture of a chaotic government led by a chaotic man. And his girlfriend more worried about media stories about their dog than getting a plan to tackle Covid.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,130
    edited May 2021
    Surprised to see the new MP for Aidrie & Shotts already posing questions in the select committee to Cummings. Excellent point from her though, about why the borders weren't closed in January...
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,485
    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Israel, surely
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,683
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Cookie said:

    Dominic Cummings has achieved the unexpected feat of making me side with Matt Hancock.
    While I have faith neither in Hancock's competence nor his chosen strategies, he has worked unbelievably hard this past year. Rarely in peacetime can a politician have appeared so tired for so long. Under these circumstances, I'd like to see him kicked a little less viciously.

    I think he was very poor to start with, but has improved. Lots of very good decisions in the past 6-9 months, not just the vaccine task force. The NHS react trials, the genome sequencing / surveillance, the real ramping up of the testing capacity.

    The big black marks are the initial reaction, especially to testing (which I think he got lead by the likes of PHE that said its just not possible to do that many tests)...and hiring Harding to head up the trace element while also over-promising just what was possible with that.
    Johnson lives or dies based on the quality of the team around him.

    Now, I wonder what big changes in his team were made around 6 months ago..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    They should have employed LeadronicT, who at least has the ability to project his predictions back in time ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,040
    edited May 2021
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Dawn Butler proving the civil servant / certain type of politician mindset...but but but you asked for help from these tech companies, booooooo....those would be the ones staffed by mega brains and massive technological resources.

    Oh no, how dare Mercedes F1 engine shop reverse-engineer a CPAP machine, then manufacture and deliver 10,000 of them to the NHS in less than a month - then open-source the whole project, so anyone in the world who needs them can now produce CPAP machines.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Unlike your hero David ‘Brexit’ Cameron? How’s his reputation, now?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Yes, that's why I said it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    Cummings says “there was no proper border policy because the prime minister never wanted a proper border policy”.

    He says they could have just copied what Singapore or Taiwan did. But Boris Johnson was at this point arguing that lockdown was a mistake, and he wanted to be like the mayor in Jaws.

    He says Johnson was worried about the impact on the tourism industry. But he was told if they did not control April there would not be a tourism industry. He says Johnson was also being influenced by the Daily Telegraph’s “stupid campaign” on this topic, and Tory MPs were “going crackers” about this too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,613
    I've been on calls for the last hour or so, have they discussed the September and November lockdowns yet?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,613
    FPT

    Just looking through some work emails from last March.

    Monday 2nd of March - General email sent out telling everyone to take their work laptops home on a daily basis.

    Tuesday 3rd of March - Email sent out asking people if they could work from home for a period of at least three months, if they could what did they need to make sure they could work from home, and that the firm would pay for things like desk, chairs, extra broadband.

    Same day - Email sent asking for thoughts about updating policies relating to Data Protection Issues and that was initiated.

    Friday 6th of March - Staff asked to read new policies and flag up any issues, and work out what they needed to take home with them, and how to do that.

    Sunday 8th of March - General work from home policy until further notice policy was agreed.

    Monday 9th of March - Work from home order issued.

    Home come my firm was about a fortnight ahead and more organised on Covid-19 than the government.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,078
    They should ban questions in the form "on a scale of xyz, how would you rate abc?"
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Taz said:

    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Israel, surely
    Wales.

    Unless Wales is just between waves.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,529
    Luke Evans MP is a doctor with a full-page photo on page 49 of your hymn book 2019 manifesto.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,613
    Also has Cummings mentioned Gove at all today?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Taz said:

    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Israel, surely
    Do they really qualify as a 'major' country? Only 8 million population and an economy outside the top 30...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,078
    DavidL said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    France announces compulsory quarantine for Brits going to France. Well this is going to ruin the plans of tens of thousands of British families, I suspect, if this stays in place for long.

    https://twitter.com/BBCJonSopel/status/1397524364837351424?s=20

    Anyone who thinks Boris has had a bad crisis (and Lord knows its been pretty mixed) really needs to look over the Channel for a comparator. I find the fact that Macron is still favourite to be re-elected genuinely astonishing.
    He's quasi-unopposed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    Does Cummings read PB?!

    ‘Goes on to say self isolation needs to be stick and carrot - threat of prison plus food delivered to door.

    "If we had just cut and pasted when they were doing in Singapore or Taiwan and said that's our policy things would have been better. No doubt about that at all."’

    I’m pretty sure I said exactly this a few weeks ago. Some other Dom lines are pure MaxPB

    Is he one of us?!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,988
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Also has Cummings mentioned Gove at all today?

    I have not heard him mention Gove so far and have listened to all the hearing so far
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    Just looking through some work emails from last March.

    Monday 2nd of March - General email sent out telling everyone to take their work laptops home on a daily basis.

    Tuesday 3rd of March - Email sent out asking people if they could work from home for a period of at least three months, if they could what did they need to make sure they could work from home, and that the firm would pay for things like desk, chairs, extra broadband.

    Same day - Email sent asking for thoughts about updating policies relating to Data Protection Issues and that was initiated.

    Friday 6th of March - Staff asked to read new policies and flag up any issues, and work out what they needed to take home with them, and how to do that.

    Sunday 8th of March - General work from home policy until further notice policy was agreed.

    Monday 9th of March - Work from home order issued.

    Home come my firm was about a fortnight ahead and more organised on Covid-19 than the government.

    On a point of order, that's a week ahead of the government, not two.

    Government, 16 March 2020:

    "As we said last week, our objective is to delay and flatten the peak of the epidemic by bringing forward the right measures at the right time, so that we minimise suffering and save lives. And everything we do is based scrupulously on the best scientific advice.... So, second, now is the time for everyone to stop non-essential contact with others and to stop all unnecessary travel. We need people to start working from home where they possibly can. And you should avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and other such social venues."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness
  • eekeek Posts: 30,532
    Leon said:

    Does Cummings read PB?!

    ‘Goes on to say self isolation needs to be stick and carrot - threat of prison plus food delivered to door.

    "If we had just cut and pasted when they were doing in Singapore or Taiwan and said that's our policy things would have been better. No doubt about that at all."’

    I’m pretty sure I said exactly this a few weeks ago. Some other Dom lines are pure MaxPB

    Is he one of us?!

    Has MaxPB posted since Cummings start talking?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Johnson not doing well in this afternoon's testimony:

    Rashford:
    Comms people "Don't pick a fight with Rashford"
    Johnson: "Pick a fight with Rashord"
    Johnson backs down twice.
    Comms get blamed....
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    No, people died because closing the border was thought not to have an effect. It's right there in the SAGE minutes.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited May 2021
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    Just looking through some work emails from last March.

    Monday 2nd of March - General email sent out telling everyone to take their work laptops home on a daily basis.

    Tuesday 3rd of March - Email sent out asking people if they could work from home for a period of at least three months, if they could what did they need to make sure they could work from home, and that the firm would pay for things like desk, chairs, extra broadband.

    Same day - Email sent asking for thoughts about updating policies relating to Data Protection Issues and that was initiated.

    Friday 6th of March - Staff asked to read new policies and flag up any issues, and work out what they needed to take home with them, and how to do that.

    Sunday 8th of March - General work from home policy until further notice policy was agreed.

    Monday 9th of March - Work from home order issued.

    Home come my firm was about a fortnight ahead and more organised on Covid-19 than the government.

    There was government planning going on. They were discussing it, thinking about it.

    They were going to inject Boris with COVID on live tv to prove it’s a scare story. Like most the press reaction supporting that the next day, I admit I would have found it reassuring, because I was getting worried.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,988
    edited May 2021
    'Did you say to the PM that you did not feel competent' !!!!!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,613
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    Just looking through some work emails from last March.

    Monday 2nd of March - General email sent out telling everyone to take their work laptops home on a daily basis.

    Tuesday 3rd of March - Email sent out asking people if they could work from home for a period of at least three months, if they could what did they need to make sure they could work from home, and that the firm would pay for things like desk, chairs, extra broadband.

    Same day - Email sent asking for thoughts about updating policies relating to Data Protection Issues and that was initiated.

    Friday 6th of March - Staff asked to read new policies and flag up any issues, and work out what they needed to take home with them, and how to do that.

    Sunday 8th of March - General work from home policy until further notice policy was agreed.

    Monday 9th of March - Work from home order issued.

    Home come my firm was about a fortnight ahead and more organised on Covid-19 than the government.

    On a point of order, that's a week ahead of the government, not two.

    Government, 16 March 2020:

    "As we said last week, our objective is to delay and flatten the peak of the epidemic by bringing forward the right measures at the right time, so that we minimise suffering and save lives. And everything we do is based scrupulously on the best scientific advice.... So, second, now is the time for everyone to stop non-essential contact with others and to stop all unnecessary travel. We need people to start working from home where they possibly can. And you should avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and other such social venues."
    True, it is 23rd of March I think of as when the legal lockdown began, prior to that, most things were still open.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Also has Cummings mentioned Gove at all today?

    Curiously enough, not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    No, people died because closing the border was thought not to have an effect. It's right there in the SAGE minutes.
    Sorry, I trust Dom Cummings here, not ‘the white rabbit’
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,698
    Philip_Thompson said:

    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Yes, that's why I said it.
    successful trade deal?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    CNN:

    Cummings claimed that the Prime Minister believed the coronavirus to be little more than a scare story and would say things like he wanted to have England's chief medical officer "inject him with Covid" live on air to prove it was nothing to worry about.

    Central to Cummings's criticism of Johnson and his government is a lack of preparedness, leading to lockdowns being delayed and policies like herd immunity being pursued.

    Cummings listed numerous reasons for this delay, ranging from a belief that the British public would not go along with "Wuhan-style" measures, to external distractions. These ranged from then-US President Donald Trump wanting the UK to join a bombing mission in the Middle East, to stories about Johnson's fiance, Carrie Symonds, being upset about stories in newspapers about the couple's dog. But ultimately, his main accusation was that the government was simply unprepared and the plan in place at this time was based on falsehoods.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Hi Carlotta,

    We’re launching!

    GB News is coming to your screens on Sunday 13th June. We’ll be kicking off with a special programme at 8pm, called "Welcome to GB News."

    You can join us on Freeview and YouView channel 236, Freesat channel 216, Sky, Virgin Media and online. Become part of the GB News family by following us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

    Best wishes,

    The GB News Team
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,449
    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    As I perviously said - to immigration lawyers of my aquaintance, a closed border combined with detention for anyone without correct documents is a dystopian nightmare they joke about after too much wine.

    Much as contrarian of this parish thinks the state wants to hang onto power gained during the crisis, any such lawyer would believe that once created, such a system would be retained.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,613
    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Also has Cummings mentioned Gove at all today?

    Curiously enough, not.
    I'll say it again, Cummings was, and always is, Gove's consigliere.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    CNN:

    Beyond the pandemic, Cummings criticized the whole system of British politics, saying that a system that offers a choice between Johnson or the former leader of the opposition, Jeremy Corbyn "something's gone extremely, extremely, wrong."

    He painted the Prime Minister as a man "a thousand times too obsessed with the media" and said that the Health Secretary should have been sacked for numerous reasons, including "publicly lying."

    He painted a picture of an insular political system that promotes the wrong types of people and gives them incentives that don't result in the best form of governance.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,465
    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    The loyalty of folk like you to a clearly flawed "leader" ( I use that term advisedly) is genuinely fascinating. It is like a psychosis. I guess such uncritical loyalty is how dictators maintain themselves.

    Are you not in the slightest bit concerned about what Cummings is saying? I seem to remember you being quite loyal to him as well a while ago. Who do you think is lying? Johnson or Cummings? Or maybe you think it doesn't matter? And if it does not matter, what does it say of the judgement of Johnson that he should have appointed Cummings in the first place?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,532
    edited May 2021
    CarlottaVance said:

    Hi Carlotta,

    We’re launching!

    GB News is coming to your screens on Sunday 13th June. We’ll be kicking off with a special programme at 8pm, called "Welcome to GB News."

    You can join us on Freeview and YouView channel 236, Freesat channel 216, Sky, Virgin Media and online. Become part of the GB News family by following us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

    Best wishes,

    The GB News Team

    channel 236 so well beyond the point I give up and select something from an on demand service.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,698
    Leon said:

    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now

    How dare you, it wasn't my fault...

    :smile:
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Leon said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    No, people died because closing the border was thought not to have an effect. It's right there in the SAGE minutes.
    Sorry, I trust Dom Cummings here, not ‘the white rabbit’
    The thing is Leon, the truth is just that regardless of who you believe.

    "The SAGE previously advised that restricting travel to the UK would have little impact on the COVID-19 epidemic in the UK and would not be a useful measure in containing the outbreak. " - per its updated report on 22 March 2020.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890030/S0076-scientific-advice-restricting-flights-from-specific-countries-220320-sage18.pdf
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Perhaps you are right on that. What about your idol, Alex Salmond? What does the same court think of him? His QC said he was a bully and a sex pest. How do you feel about blind loyalty to a person with such a rep?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Leon said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Unlike your hero David ‘Brexit’ Cameron? How’s his reputation, now?
    Damaged. But, wow, what a fantastically good government that one was compared with its two successors - and that's what matters.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    You are being silly now. You are calling the most anti woke government ever, as acting on woke ideas.

    They will win majority at next election on basis they are 110% non woke, yet you are saying their decision making is woke.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    It's always the "Holier than thow"s isn't it?

    Green MSPs including 2 co-leaders breached Covid law by gathering in upmarket bar yesterday in a group of more than 3 households. Patrick Harvie (from Glasgow - Level 3) also likely to face Qs re breaking rules by being in hospitality premises in Edinburgh


    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1397533162822160385?s=20
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,779
    Oh good. We get to argue about the Barnard Castle Eye Test again.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,800
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FPT

    Just looking through some work emails from last March.

    Monday 2nd of March - General email sent out telling everyone to take their work laptops home on a daily basis.

    Tuesday 3rd of March - Email sent out asking people if they could work from home for a period of at least three months, if they could what did they need to make sure they could work from home, and that the firm would pay for things like desk, chairs, extra broadband.

    Same day - Email sent asking for thoughts about updating policies relating to Data Protection Issues and that was initiated.

    Friday 6th of March - Staff asked to read new policies and flag up any issues, and work out what they needed to take home with them, and how to do that.

    Sunday 8th of March - General work from home policy until further notice policy was agreed.

    Monday 9th of March - Work from home order issued.

    Home come my firm was about a fortnight ahead and more organised on Covid-19 than the government.

    On a point of order, that's a week ahead of the government, not two.

    Government, 16 March 2020:

    "As we said last week, our objective is to delay and flatten the peak of the epidemic by bringing forward the right measures at the right time, so that we minimise suffering and save lives. And everything we do is based scrupulously on the best scientific advice.... So, second, now is the time for everyone to stop non-essential contact with others and to stop all unnecessary travel. We need people to start working from home where they possibly can. And you should avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and other such social venues."
    True, it is 23rd of March I think of as when the legal lockdown began, prior to that, most things were still open.
    The 'work at home' order was before that though. It was a sliding process.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Leon said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Unlike your hero David ‘Brexit’ Cameron? How’s his reputation, now?
    Damaged. But, wow, what a fantastically good government that one was compared with its two successors - and that's what matters.
    Cameron achieved the diametric opposite of what he fundamentally desired. He failed abysmally by his own metric
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,944
    Leon said:

    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now

    Oh do shut up. Post about the weather and UFOs instead - you make more sense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Leon said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me

    ‘On border closures 👇
    Before April: Official repeated advice was not to close borders. "Another groupthink thing said it was basically racist to close the borders." That was the official advice, the official advice was closing the borders would have no effect.’

    50,000 were killed by Wokeness

    No, people died because closing the border was thought not to have an effect. It's right there in the SAGE minutes.
    Sorry, I trust Dom Cummings here, not ‘the white rabbit’
    The thing is Leon, the truth is just that regardless of who you believe.

    "The SAGE previously advised that restricting travel to the UK would have little impact on the COVID-19 epidemic in the UK and would not be a useful measure in containing the outbreak. " - per its updated report on 22 March 2020.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890030/S0076-scientific-advice-restricting-flights-from-specific-countries-220320-sage18.pdf
    And why did SAGE offer this ludicrous, plainly wrong advice? Because, ‘racisms are bad, innit’
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,529
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Luke Evans MP is a doctor with a full-page photo on page 49 of your hymn book 2019 manifesto.

    Luke Evans has dug out some interesting revelations about the security background to Barnard Castle but failed to skewer Cummings. There does seem to be a concerted attack here. Something of a reverse ferret from the previous line of Barnard Castle being insignificant.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    I think you will find scientists invented those, not your hero. I know that is a blow to you. We have one of the best (yes, genuinely) pharma sectors in the world and consequently there is good advice available, and exceptionally good relations with pharma and supply chains. All this predated Boris Johnson.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,826
    Thoughts: Has DC rather done a bit of this? : "Lots of people are to blame, including me. I am going into forensic and savage detail about some of the others blame but much less detail about how I personally am to blame."

    Getting this right is a test of whether his evidence is tainted by personalities etc.

    Secondly, since the events of last year DC is not a trusted witness for well known reasons. In order to restore this it would have to be obvious that he is being as critical about himself, and in detail, as he is about others.

    I am not convinced he is passing the tests.

    Thirdly, he has given a number of hostages by way of evidence which another person may be able directly to contradict. This is not an especially safe procedure when it may be a bundle of rats in a sack involved.

    Tentative conclusion: Boris and friends safe for now.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Philip_Thompson said:

    gealbhan said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Successful furlough scheme.
    Successful Brexit deal.
    Successful trade deal.

    First country in the world to get a vaccine.
    First major country in the world to end the pandemic.

    The 'disasters' just keep piling up!

    I don't think Hancock will be too worried about Cummings claims - the PM clearly stood by him earlier on and now Hancock will just keep shouting about the success of the vaccines and get vaccinated (while jogging in an England Cricket shirt, good man!)

    Who's the PM and public going to back? The man who became a butt of jokes about Specsavers at Barnard Castle (even though I think it was defensible, I'm in a minority there), or the Health Secretary who has for months now been so associated with the vaccines?
    “ First major country in the world to end the pandemic.”

    You think so?
    Yes, that's why I said it.
    Okay. 🙂

    So if wave 3 is bad one for UK, will you leave PB for good. Are you THAT confident?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    Northern_Al said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now

    Oh do shut up. Post about the weather and UFOs instead - you make more sense.
    Cummings just said this. Not me
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2021
    It shouldn’t be so, but I think the most damaging “revelation” for Boris is about Carrie and the dog.

    The tabloids will lap it up
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,973
    Northern_Al said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now

    Oh do shut up. Post about the weather and UFOs instead - you make more sense.
    Are you sure?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,698
    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    Why should he get loads of credit there, surely it is a given that it is a duty of every government in the world to look after its citizens. Perhaps he should be praised for providing oxygen and food for us all? I can't help thinking that like Indiana Jones in Temple of the lost Ark, his presence was a little irrelevant there.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Leon said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Leon said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Unlike your hero David ‘Brexit’ Cameron? How’s his reputation, now?
    Damaged. But, wow, what a fantastically good government that one was compared with its two successors - and that's what matters.
    Cameron achieved the diametric opposite of what he fundamentally desired. He failed abysmally by his own metric
    All political careers end in failure. The central premise of what Richard said was correct, even if your reply is also correct.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    ping said:

    It shouldn’t be so, but I think the most damaging “revelation” for Boris is about Carrie and the dog.

    The tabs will lap it up

    Yes, that was bad. There’s a lot of bad in here
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    I think you will find scientists invented those, not your hero. I know that is a blow to you. We have one of the best (yes, genuinely) pharma sectors in the world and consequently there is good advice available, and exceptionally good relations with pharma and supply chains. All this predated Boris Johnson.
    Thats not how the public see it
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,433
    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Probably because he was good at what he did. Trouble is that too many people in the cabinet including Johnson were and are interested in self advancement rather than actually doing something right.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,736
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Leon said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Johnson must be wondering why on earth he employed Cummings in the first place.

    Well he was warned by multiple people, including lots of Tory MPs.

    But, in this case, the biggest mistake was promoting Johnson, who has as predicted been a disaster.
    Unlike your hero David ‘Brexit’ Cameron? How’s his reputation, now?
    Damaged. But, wow, what a fantastically good government that one was compared with its two successors - and that's what matters.
    The key to the quality of that government was Osborne. He was the one who kept it together through the quad and focused. Driving him out of politics is probably not amongst most peoples' top charge list against Mrs May (in fairness the list is long and complicated) but it was an enormous disservice to the United Kingdom.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Cookie said:

    Dominic Cummings has achieved the unexpected feat of making me side with Matt Hancock.
    While I have faith neither in Hancock's competence nor his chosen strategies, he has worked unbelievably hard this past year. Rarely in peacetime can a politician have appeared so tired for so long. Under these circumstances, I'd like to see him kicked a little less viciously.

    I think he was very poor to start with, but has improved. Lots of very good decisions in the past 6-9 months, not just the vaccine task force. The NHS react trials, the genome sequencing / surveillance, the real ramping up of the testing capacity.

    The big black marks are the initial reaction, especially to testing (which I think he got lead by the likes of PHE that said its just not possible to do that many tests)...and hiring Harding to head up the trace element while also over-promising just what was possible with that.
    There is something about human nature where we find it difficult to comprehend and address issues around exponential change. This is because most of the time we don't need to. I think they have done OK.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,944
    IanB2 said:

    Northern_Al said:

    Leon said:

    We’ve all wondered why they didn’t close the borders. Now we know. It was The Woke. Closing borders is ‘racist’

    This is pretty explosive stuff now

    Oh do shut up. Post about the weather and UFOs instead - you make more sense.
    Are you sure?
    No, but it was worth a try.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,651
    ping said:

    It shouldn’t be so, but I think the most damaging “revelation” for Boris is about Carrie and the dog.

    The tabloids will lap it up

    What was the revelation?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 62,532
    This is the most compelling evidence ever given in a UK Parliamentary Committee, that I can remember. It dwarfs everything else
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    NerysHughes said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    I think you will find scientists invented those, not your hero. I know that is a blow to you. We have one of the best (yes, genuinely) pharma sectors in the world and consequently there is good advice available, and exceptionally good relations with pharma and supply chains. All this predated Boris Johnson.
    Thats not how the public see it
    You are most certainly correct. The public can be supremely gullible and Boris Johnson loves that fact.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,698
    NerysHughes said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    I think you will find scientists invented those, not your hero. I know that is a blow to you. We have one of the best (yes, genuinely) pharma sectors in the world and consequently there is good advice available, and exceptionally good relations with pharma and supply chains. All this predated Boris Johnson.
    Thats not how the public see it
    Not at the moment, but a lot of people are being paid 80% for doing bugger all curtouesy of Boris et al, maybe when the job losses work through.......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,719
    Lol he really doesn't like Hancock.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,871
    Leon said:

    This is the most compelling evidence ever given in a UK Parliamentary Committee, that I can remember. It dwarfs everything else

    It's just a shame he wasn't reading PB when it was all happening.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    NerysHughes said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    NerysHughes said:

    malcolmg said:

    gealbhan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cummings says Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, told Boris Johnson that the cabinet system was not set up to deal with a minister like Matt Hancock who repeatedly lied in meetings.

    Hunt says that is a serious allegation. He says Hancock himself will be giving evidence to the committee next month.

    Firstly Boris has made clear at PMQs he didn’t hear Sedders say that. Secondly, Seders can now now contradict Cummings by saying never said it, calling out Cummings evidence as unsubstantiated lies. Thirdly, it doesn’t mean Hancock has ever told a lie in a meeting, unless there is evidence which proves he has. There is no kangaroo court UK, we are innocent unless proven guilty.
    In the court of public opinion he is guilty as charged on multiple offences.
    Providing the best vaccine programme in the world?
    I think you will find scientists invented those, not your hero. I know that is a blow to you. We have one of the best (yes, genuinely) pharma sectors in the world and consequently there is good advice available, and exceptionally good relations with pharma and supply chains. All this predated Boris Johnson.
    Thats not how the public see it
    At the moment, but ultimately all politicians are held in low esteem.
This discussion has been closed.