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With the Cummings Commons Committee starting at 0930 – the former advisor Tweets a pic of pre-lockdo

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,874
    maaarsh said:

    He appears to live in a fantasy world of high performing organisations which respond to catastrophic shock with calm and capability.

    I've no doubt number 10 and the civil service are a shit show - I just don't share his faith in the existance of impressive alternatives.
    Especially not as Cummings wants to centralise command and control.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,935
    edited May 2021
    MrEd said:

    Surrounded on all sides by a potentially hostile rump and with its other components likely to be against the concept of a London mini-state.

    Mmm, I can see that working well
    A bit like an England surrounded by three ex-British states in the EU. None of these plans are practically plausible or viable on the island of Britain. Coming to a modus operandi means compromise.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,340
    malcolmg said:

    Sooner the better, but as you are a bunch of cowards and cannot stand on your own two feet or do without our money that will not happen.
    HahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

    pause

    HahahaHAHADR%HYUU77875CHI67UUJPFFFGFFF

    Haddaway and Shite
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    No-one, which is half the problem.

    “Be quiet and serve your time”

    Meanwhile, successful large business today look very different organisationally than they did a few decades ago, the CS looks exactly the same but with more diversity training.
    It's like the old joke/thought about the BBC: You can have every kind of diversity except diversity of thought.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966

    Damn, I have to leave for a 1300 hours meeting!

    You go to meetings?? How....quaint.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    HYUFD said:

    The main problem is it is no longer a Union as such but a Federal UK excluding England.

    Give England its own Parliament or at least English regional assemblies and the problem would be resolved
    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,473

    Does this apply if you don't have the NHS app?
    Its almost certainly not related to the NHS ap - it'll be your NHS records.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    He’s Scottish. He won’t be allowed to work in England without a visa.

    I’m quite serious. Enough of this Scottish whining. Let them go. And ‘going’ means GOING. No special treatment. This is not Ireland. Scots who want to work in London will need visas
    He's married to an English person AFAIK.

    Edit: no, I'm wrong to my surprise - Ms Vine is Welsh by birth.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225

    Does this apply if you don't have the NHS app?
    Not quite sure what you're asking.

    The data discussed are those recored by GP practices to manage care. The plan is that all of this (in England) will be shared centrally to NHS Digital and will be available for research (pseudonymised, which is in lay terms anonymised - the difference is that the identifier is an encrypted form of the ID, not a random ID, to the end user researcher it's the same thing as they don't have the decryption key) and with other sensitive data such as address, date of birth etc stripped out and data minimised to be just enough for the research question.

    The general NHS app is irrelevant (unless opting out/in is possible via the app? that would make sense). You can access some of your data via the app, but that will be different (full, non-anonymised) to the data shared for research.

    The Covid NHS app is irrelevant too as no data should be shared from there.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    It's like the old joke/thought about the BBC: You can have every kind of diversity except diversity of thought.
    Dan Hannan: “BBC diversity: people who look different but think the same”.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Can the Hillsborough verdict be appealed upward ?
    I assume it will be if it can be.

    The prosecution has confirmed they are not seeking leave to appeal.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    malcolmg said:

    Sooner the better, but as you are a bunch of cowards and cannot stand on your own two feet or do without our money that will not happen.
    hahahahahahahahahaha
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Beth Rigby
    @BethRigby
    ·
    1m
    Hancock was interfering in T&T because he's made this public target and was gearing it all hitting my target. "He should have been fired for that thing alone". "It was criminal, disgraceful behaviour that caused serious harm"


    Cummings clearly wants Hancock gone. Helps clear way for Gove?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966

    And why the vaccine task force worked....got rid of the civil servants, hired top people with specific expert knowledge in a variety of niche roles, told them to get on with it, no time for dicking about, diversity training, etc etc etc.

    Compare with PHE roll out of testing.....but Mr Hancock we can't do more than 10,000 a day, its too hard, its too complicated, there is this issue and that issue, and we will only use PHE labs, and no we won't use outside contractors. My Excel spreadsheet can't cope.
    Exactly so. A good example of what DC is talking about and what needs to be done, at least in an emergency. Whether you can generalise from that happy experience to government as a whole is more problematic.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Lukashenko chastened by EU sanctions: “Lukashenko also suggested critics of Belarus should have been grateful he did not order the plane to be shot down”

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1397514472642785282?s=20
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,607

    The only interesting thing on that whiteboard are the words, “Who do we not save?”

    Is some MP going to ask about that?
    DavidL said:

    Interesting. In law the idea that you can say anything meaningful in a brief phrase without qualifications is risible. In tech equations etc may mean that the board actually has something significant on it.
    "Caveat emptor"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    edited May 2021
    kingbongo said:

    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,340
    Carnyx said:

    He's married to an English person AFAIK.

    Edit: no, I'm wrong to my surprise - Ms Vine is Welsh by birth.
    So they both have to go home. I can hear the quark-sized chamber orchestra tuning up

    I’m quite serious here, however. If Scotland goes they need to know the consequences. They will be treated like, say, Denmark, or Portugal. Not Ireland. Ireland was a special case

    A hard border at the border. Visas to work down south
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160
    edited May 2021

    Beth Rigby
    @BethRigby
    ·
    1m
    Hancock was interfering in T&T because he's made this public target and was gearing it all hitting my target. "He should have been fired for that thing alone". "It was criminal, disgraceful behaviour that caused serious harm"


    Cummings clearly wants Hancock gone. Helps clear way for Gove?

    That was a bad thing? Given how piss poor PHE had been for a month they were given to ramp up testing? We would never have got to 100k tests a day without that stretch target (even if there was some fudging going on to save political face at the end).

    I genuinely believe without that change in attitude we would still be like Italy doing f##k all tests for a year after the pandemic, trying to tell the public that smart small scale targeted testing was superior.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951
    Cummings confirms that they thought Boris might die and government collapsed until Cummings returned in April
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    Good to see Hancock taking his exercise seriously this morning.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Especially not as Cummings wants to centralise command and control.
    His twin thoughts seem to be

    * The Department of Health (and Hancock) were overwhelmed and needed splitting up as it was too much for them to deal with.
    * There needed to be all power channeled to a single dictator.

    There seems to be a clash between those two.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,473

    I think that summary - PM made some very bad misjudgements *and* he was badly let down by advisers/the system - is fair and accurate.

    https://twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1397505495834009602?s=20

    This is key really. It was never all on Boris, he never had the right information at the time. Off course his personality is entirely wrong for this crisis, and that has been evident from the start. It was not the Premiership he wanted - complete Brexit and then head for the sunlit uplands (in his view). Instead he found himself in a once in a century pandemic, when almost any other politician would have been a better choice for the top job (not Corbyn). Personally I thought Raab did a good job when Johnson was out of action, others will disagree.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Beth Rigby
    @BethRigby
    ·
    1m
    Hancock was interfering in T&T because he's made this public target and was gearing it all hitting my target. "He should have been fired for that thing alone". "It was criminal, disgraceful behaviour that caused serious harm"


    Cummings clearly wants Hancock gone. Helps clear way for Gove?

    You could also argue that the other way around, that Hancock’s public testing target was the only thing that was moving things along down the line.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656
    malcolmg said:

    Sooner the better, but as you are a bunch of cowards and cannot stand on your own two feet or do without our money that will not happen.
    The guy who is definately, absolutely, 100% not Anti-English in any way shape or form replies to the UFO and weather obsessive. What a time to be on this board.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    malcolmg said:

    Sooner the better, but as you are a bunch of cowards and cannot stand on your own two feet or do without our money that will not happen.
    Writes the man from a country that voted to REMAIN in its current union of the people in the country that voted to LEAVE theirs.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Writes the man from a country that voted to REMAIN in its current union of the people in the country that voted to LEAVE theirs.....
    Wrong sequence there; 2014 was entirely predicated on the UK remaining in the EU, as you well know. It's not even as if you are in the UK or EU yourself.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    MattW said:

    Yes.

    Fortunately we have some competent critical groups who will be on this, to hold them to account.
    Yep, NHS data applications go before IGARD, after first getting cleared by NHS Digital internally
    https://digital.nhs.uk/about-nhs-digital/corporate-information-and-documents/independent-group-advising-on-the-release-of-data/igard-member-profiles
    (mix of scientists, clinicians and lay members - i.e. general public not in the above groups).
    They have periodic open recruitment.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    “They vacillate, we vaccinate”

    Starmer floored onto canvas again, PM sailing untroubled through another PMQs
  • algarkirk said:

    The point of law can be appealed but not the acquittal. That can only be appealed on the basis of fresh and compelling evidence with a view to a retrial (eg the Stephen Lawrence case).
    That's not quite right. You can appeal a "no case to answer" but need to do it immediately when the judge makes the ruling (or request a short adjornment to consider whether to appeal, then do so the next morning basically).

    In this case, the prosecution has said it's not appealing, so that's that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,252

    Terrible question imo. Effectively AB MP has moved the discussion away from Covid decision-making. From HMG's POV, job done.
    His Ministerial post is, er, in the post....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    "If we don't fire [Hancock] then people will die" - Cummings claims.

  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,179
    One suspects the headlines of the day are all going to be around Hancock, not Boris.

    From what i have heard, bits and pieces here and there between work commitments, Boris isn't coming out of this badly at all. Hancock could be in trouble unless he can effectively rebut these points. Cummings just looks like Cummings.

    I doubt much of this will play outside the Westminster & media bubble. Are folk in Bolton or Burnley or Batley really bothered by this minutiae and score settling?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951

    "If we don't fire [Hancock] then people will die" - Cummings claims.

    The media are going to go after Hancock after today
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160
    DavidL said:

    Exactly so. A good example of what DC is talking about and what needs to be done, at least in an emergency. Whether you can generalise from that happy experience to government as a whole is more problematic.
    I think we all know the civil service approach is to start from no, it can't be done, its too hard, too expensive....where as those leading the world, your Elon Musks, start from the it can be done, I will make it happen, now how do I do that, first of all hire some really good people.

    We need to have reform to more the Elon end. The problem is that again, as we said early about ministers admitting I actually don't know, any government programme that fails gets all the attention, not if 4 succeed and 1 fails.

    One of the leading people on the vaccine task force actually said they very nearly didn't join because they knew if all the vaccines didn't work, he would be in front of select committee and being branded by the media as the man who wasted billions...with no room for nuance of we took educated bets on uncertain technologies, because the upside vastly outweighed the downside.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Sandpit said:

    You could also argue that the other way around, that Hancock’s public testing target was the only thing that was moving things along down the line.
    Dom says you are wrong and he's a genius!! :smiley:
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,874
    Cummings is hammering Matt Hancock for lying. Can any PBers think of a Prime Minister whose veracity is also in doubt?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966

    Lukashenko chastened by EU sanctions: “Lukashenko also suggested critics of Belarus should have been grateful he did not order the plane to be shot down”

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1397514472642785282?s=20

    With Americans on board. Yes, that would have gone well...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    Sounds like the worst charge against BoJo is that he (and, importantly, Carrie) were fiddling while the UK was about to combust.

    It may have legs, that said.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Sympathies to government supporters defending this shower on PB today.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,335
    malcolmg said:

    Sooner the better, but as you are a bunch of cowards and cannot stand on your own two feet or do without our money that will not happen.
    "To cut off your nose to spite your face" is also an expression in Russian, so maybe you trolls should increase your dosage before spouting such tosh.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Health Service Journal
    @HSJnews
    ·
    2m
    Mr Cummings says he repeatedly - from Feb/March - "if we don't fire
    @MattHancock
    and get on top of the testing catastrophe we will see a lot of people dead".

    "In April, we had this terrible pledge distorting the system and constant lying about PPE."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,340
    Carnyx said:

    Wrong sequence there; 2014 was entirely predicated on the UK remaining in the EU, as you well know. It's not even as if you are in the UK or EU yourself.
    What a load of bollocks

    You supported YES in 2014. A YES vote would have meant immediate exit from the EU by Scotland. You were voting for your own mini-Brexit. It might have taken Scotland ten years to re-enter the EU, maybe 20, and you might not have done it. Because currency, etc

    So exiting the EU was what you VOTED FOR in 2014, you pathetic creature, and now suddenly exiting the EU is so bad you want another vote so this time you can vote for... what? Maybe rejoining the EU? Or the EEA? Or not? Or what? You have no idea, do you? It is beyond lame


  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think we all know the civil service approach is to start from no, it can't be done, its too hard, too expensive....where as those leading the world, your Elon Musks, start from the it can be done, I will make it happen, now how do I do that, first of all hire some really good people.

    We need to have reform to more the Elon end. The problem is that again, as we said early about ministers admitting I actually don't know, any government programme that fails gets all the attention, not if 4 succeed and 1 fails.

    One of the leading people on the vaccine task force actually said they very nearly didn't join because they knew if all the vaccines didn't work, he would be in front of select committee and being branded by the media as the man who wasted billions...with no room for nuance of we took educated bets on uncertain technologies, because the upside vastly outweighed the downside.
    Going even further than 4 succeeds and 1 fails, to make real progress sometimes you need an attitude of it doesn't matter if 4 fail so long as 1 succeeds. Or more.

    Hence Musk with his rapid fire rocket tests that fail gloriously and he's happy with that as he's got good data to help build the rocket 5 from now (since the next 4 are already being constructed and they'll fail too).
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,592
    DavidL said:

    Hence why I say that the answers are more complicated than he wants to admit. But the days of the great British generalist in the Civil Service who goes from department to department learning just enough about each new area of responsibility to justify a promotion to somewhere else are surely coming to an end? We need specialists, employed for their specialism and respected within that field but only listened to at best outside it. He is right about this.
    Except he's saying PHE was awful and all the people he calls brilliant are generalists.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Carnyx said:

    Wrong sequence there; 2014 was entirely predicated on the UK remaining in the EU,
    Not in the Scottish Government's "Scotland's Future":

    If we remain in the UK, the Conservative Party’s promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership raises the serious possibility that Scotland will be forced to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland.

    Page 60.

    Of course their lying and obfuscation about Scotland's quick accession to the EU in the event of independence might have undermined belief in this claim - which, almost uniquely, turned out to be true...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160

    Health Service Journal
    @HSJnews
    ·
    2m
    Mr Cummings says he repeatedly - from Feb/March - "if we don't fire
    @MattHancock
    and get on top of the testing catastrophe we will see a lot of people dead".

    "In April, we had this terrible pledge distorting the system and constant lying about PPE."

    What is Cummings arguing, we should have done less testing? Imagine if Hancock hadn't promised 100k a day...we had one week in September when some people couldn't get a test and it was like the world was about to end.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,874
    Jonathan said:

    Sympathies to government supporters defending this shower on PB today.

    Will CCHQ circle the wagons to defend Matt Hancock?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966

    "If we don't fire [Hancock] then people will die" - Cummings claims.

    Personally I thought that Hancock had a terrible first 6 months of the crisis where he frequently seemed quite overwhelmed (and understandably so). If that is the period that Cummings is focusing on then his criticism is hardly surprising.

    But Hancock has got better. He has worked hard to get on top of his brief and understand what works and what doesn't. He has a legacy of past mistakes such as T&T and the app but generally speaking he has done well recently. The way the NHS has handled the roll out in England has been pretty exemplary, certainly better than we have managed north of the border.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,951

    Will CCHQ circle the wagons to defend Matt Hancock?
    I expect his appearance before this committee in two weeks and their report in late June will decide his fate
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited May 2021

    I think we all know the civil service approach is to start from no, it can't be done, its too hard, too expensive....where as those leading the world, your Elon Musks, start from the it can be done, I will make it happen, now how do I do that, first of all hire some really good people.

    We need to have reform to more the Elon end. The problem is that again, as we said early about ministers admitting I actually don't know, any government programme that fails gets all the attention, not if 4 succeed and 1 fails.

    One of the leading people on the vaccine task force actually said they very nearly didn't join because they knew if all the vaccines didn't work, he would be in front of select committee and being branded by the media as the man who wasted billions...with no room for nuance of we took educated bets on uncertain technologies, because the upside vastly outweighed the downside.
    Great analogy

    If you want to build a rocket that lands back, then build one every fortnight and fly it. After a few holes in the ground you’ll have a rocket that lands back. Takes a year or two.

    Alternatively, spend 10 years designing a rocket that lands back, test it on a computer, build models and test them in wind tunnels, spend five years more building the actual rocket, find a problem in the design and spend more time on the computer and in the wind tunnel, then eventually get your rocket. But well done, because you kept 10,000 people employed in 43 different states, for 15 years.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    What is Cummings arguing, we should have done less testing? Imagine if Hancock hadn't promised 100k a day...we had one week in September when some people couldn't get a test and it was like the world was about to end.
    No, he is arguing that the arbitrary target was actually counter productive as it disrupted the whole development of the test and trace programme. That much seems blindingly obvious.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Ian Dunt
    @IanDunt
    ·
    1h
    That is.... quite a thing to say. The Cabinet secretary had no confidence that the secretary of state for health would tell the truth during a pandemic.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160
    edited May 2021
    Cummings says he was pushing for a system which would have allowed the government to look at positive test cases and consider bank data, phone data, to triangulate where people were and what they were doing.

    ---

    So he wanted a South Korean model.....given the media had a meltdown about dep-ing an app to go to the pub, just imagine the reaction to well the government is going to covertly spy on your every move.

    Some of us said way back, the only effective trace approach was the South Korean model, but no Western government could ever go for it, because the public just wouldn't accept it.

    Also, Google and Apple have done everything in their power to ensure phone that runs their tech can't do proper tracking.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    kingbongo said:

    no it wouldn't - a UK government would only be allowed to work if the constituent nations accepted the federal government and allowed the federal government to control the overall economic direction of the nation, its defence etc- the English government let alone others would have no incentive to do this - a federal UK could only work if you broke England into pieces so no part was too powerful, and why should England want that?
    Why would the other countries want to be dealing with county councils , it will never ever happen. Westminster is the de facto English government and as such everything it does it with respect to England, if it does not suit the other countries then it is tough luck.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,179
    Ian Dunt
    @IanDunt
    ·
    4m
    Reminder that Johnson just said explicitly in the Commons [Cab Sec saying Hancock lies] that this did not happen. Either he is misleading the House or Cummings is misleading the select committee.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Ian Dunt
    @IanDunt
    ·
    1h
    That is.... quite a thing to say. The Cabinet secretary had no confidence that the secretary of state for health would tell the truth during a pandemic.

    Except it’s a Cummings lie, as Boris has just said at the dispatch box, it was never said to him.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    Not in the Scottish Government's "Scotland's Future":

    If we remain in the UK, the Conservative Party’s promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership raises the serious possibility that Scotland will be forced to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland.

    Page 60.

    Of course their lying and obfuscation about Scotland's quick accession to the EU in the event of independence might have undermined belief in this claim - which, almost uniquely, turned out to be true...
    We know who the liars are, they may have made assumptions , it is the English government at Westminster that runs on lies and is full of liars.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,893

    What is Cummings arguing, we should have done less testing? Imagine if Hancock hadn't promised 100k a day...we had one week in September when some people couldn't get a test and it was like the world was about to end.
    Yes, I was told that the "system" stated that increasing testing was impossible because of capacity at the "proper" labs and lacked of skilled technicians.

    The obvious answer wa to set up new labs and use technology to fill the skill gap.

    Shades of the Manhattan project Caultrons - The US Army took one look at the claim that only a PhD could monitor a Caultron, laughed, and trained women from the secretarial pool (IIRC) to do a better job than the scientists....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242

    Cummings says he was pushing for a system which would have allowed the government to look at positive test cases and consider bank data, phone data, to triangulate where people were and what they were doing.

    ---

    So he wanted a South Korean model.....given the media had a meltdown about dep-ing an app to go to the pub, just imagine the reaction to well the government is going to covertly spy on your every move.

    Some of us said way back, the only effective trace approach was the South Korean model, but no Western government could ever go for it, because the public just wouldn't accept it.

    Just like everyone kept saying they wouldn't accept lockdown - until they did.

    For better or for worse I think many commentators have a very wrong headed view of what the public will accept when their lives are threatened.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Ironically, Dominic Cummings has saved Matt Hancock. Some very serious allegations to be answered but no way that Boris Johnson will act on Cummings' evidence. Interesting to see what happens at the next Cabinet reshuffle though.

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1397519058942271488?s=20
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242
    gealbhan said:

    Except it’s a Cummings lie, as Boris has just said at the dispatch box, it was never said to him.
    Well I believe Cummings before I believe Boris.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    He is obviously right on this. It happened in front of our eyes

    At the time I remember thinking ‘this must make the meetings pointless, because no one will say anything important but contentious, because sturgeon will leak it’

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but it’s possibly time to kick Scotland out of the union. Fuck them
    Or to charge Sturgeon with something under a national security law for actions injurious to the country
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160

    Just like everyone kept saying they wouldn't accept lockdown - until they did.

    For better or for worse I think many commentators have a very wrong headed view of what the public will accept when their lives are threatened.
    Lockdown is one thing, especially with furlough payments....having the government spy on your ever move...I don't think that would fly.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    edited May 2021

    Like my Gran used to say, "I want never gets...."
    Currently trying to teach a 3 year old. Our approach to "I want" is for daddy to tell mummy (or vice versa) "Dominic* wants x" to which the other replies "Does he? Interesting..." while neither of us moves a muscle to give Dominic X. Seems to be working, slowly.

    Mummy also had a campaign to replace "what?" with "pardon?", despite me telling her that was unbearably common :wink: That's worked so 'well' that he thinks 'what' is completely verboten and utters sentences such as "what did he do, mummy, pardon?" :frowning:

    *identiy changed to protect the innocent/guilty
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    malcolmg said:

    Why would the other countries want to be dealing with county councils , it will never ever happen. Westminster is the de facto English government and as such everything it does it with respect to England, if it does not suit the other countries then it is tough luck.
    On current polling the only way Starmer becomes UK PM in 2024 is with SNP confidence and supply in a hung parliament.

    In which case England would still have a Tory majority but not have the UK government it voted for and not have its own Parliament or Assemblies to run most of its own domestic policy as the other home nations have either.

    That would be untenable
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 2021

    What is Cummings arguing, we should have done less testing? Imagine if Hancock hadn't promised 100k a day...we had one week in September when some people couldn't get a test and it was like the world was about to end.
    Of all the things to criticise him for, the target seems an odd one. One of the few things politicians can bring to the table during a complex crisis is strategic direction and clear instructions on where to focus efforts and prioritise resources.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160
    edited May 2021
    Cummings approach for test and trace again comes from if I ruled the world, I would do x, and everybody would just have to follow along...without considering that a) many powerful voices would rally against it, b) many powerful companies would rally against it and c) absolutely no guarantee the people wouldn't rally against it and d) the practical aspect of it.

    He makes it sound like it would be a piece of piss to just look back all the info of somebody who has tested positive. If it was that easy, the security services could track the few 1000 radical Islamists while sitting on their arses playing video games all day....not struggling to even keep track of a small percentage of those people and unfortunately from time to time one slipping through the net.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,753
    edited May 2021
    Just caught up on Cummings, and PMQ.

    He does not rate the PM at all, does he? He was absolutely categorical that there is something wrong with a political system that throws up a choice between Johnson and Corbyn as PM. Hard to disagree, though this is not just a UK problem - Trump or Biden? Macron or Le Pen?

    Cummings clearly thinks BJ is unfit to be PM and is a bit of an idiot. Luckily for Boris, his comments on Hancock are likely to distract from his view of the PM.

    And I thought Starmer was good at PMQ. I suspect Cummings would rate his ability higher than Johnson or Corbyn, despite him being Labour.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    HYUFD said:

    The UK government already does control the overall economic direction and defence of the whole UK. Just England is the only country in the UK which does not have its own Parliament to run the rest of its domestic policy.

    There is no reason an English Parliament would not work other than leftwingers don't want it as it would normally have a Tory majority, otherwise we should at least have regional assemblies which would still be better than the current situation where England has no government of its own at national or regional level outside of the UK (except in the London region with the Mayor and Assembly)
    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Swiss foreign ministry, in response to Lukashenko claim: "The Swiss authorities have no knowledge of a bomb threat on the Ryanair Athens-Vilnius flight"

    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1397520140120506369?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    Is Stringer the last old school Lexiter in parliament ?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    No, he is arguing that the arbitrary target was actually counter productive as it disrupted the whole development of the test and trace programme. That much seems blindingly obvious.
    This is true. It’s documented that rather than drive quality, it drove fiddling to meet the targets. Test kits mailed out on mass were being counted as testing done.

    Conservative supporting newspapers like Telegraph, Mail, Sun let the country down by not calling the government out on this, and by accepting target had been reached.

    When Blair’s government was obsessed by targets, the Conservatives used to speak very eloquently about the dangers of targets.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,225
    Sandpit said:

    Great analogy

    If you want to build a rocket that lands back, then build one every fortnight and fly it. After a few holes in the ground you’ll have a rocket that lands back. Takes a year or two.

    Alternatively, spend 10 years designing a rocket that lands back, test it on a computer, build models and test them in wind tunnels, spend five years more building the actual rocket, find a problem in the design and spend more time on the computer and in the wind tunnel, then eventually get your rocket. But well done, because you kept 10,000 people employed in 43 different states, for 15 years.
    You also get the advantage, with the first approach, of hiring the best people, because all they really want to do is actually get to launch some damn rockets, rather than spend a career pontificating about launching a rocket.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Not in the Scottish Government's "Scotland's Future":

    If we remain in the UK, the Conservative Party’s promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership raises the serious possibility that Scotland will be forced to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland.

    Page 60.

    Of course their lying and obfuscation about Scotland's quick accession to the EU in the event of independence might have undermined belief in this claim - which, almost uniquely, turned out to be true...
    It was the No campaign that made 'vote No and stay in the EU' a central plank of their platform. And they won, so they take the credit/blame, whichever ypou want to call it.

    I actually pointed out that possibility to friends and family members before the referendum - but they would not believe me, because of the No campaign's relentless promises that voting No was the only way tyo stay in the EU.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966
    Cyclefree said:

    Is some MP going to ask about that? "Caveat emptor"?
    A good example. It is so qualified by, for example, Consumer Protection legislation or even the terms of the Sale of Goods Act that on its own it is vacuous and meaningless.

    But I am happy to accept that it is useful in other fields. My son is taking his advanced higher maths exam this morning and his calculations have expanded from his white board over his mirrored doors. It clearly helps him think through difficult problems.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    The Belarusian official who made the claim about Hamas blowing up the Ryanair plane said the fake bomb threat came from a Protonmail address. They're based in Switzerland and Lukashenko clearly has no idea how the internet works....

    Protonmail say they "have not seen any credible evidence that the Belarusian claims are true and have not received any requests from the authorities regarding any Proton accounts in connection to the incident."


    https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1397477206151008258?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966
    malcolmg said:

    We know who the liars are, they may have made assumptions , it is the English government at Westminster that runs on lies and is full of liars.
    I think the liar in that case Malcolm made the mistake of adhibiting his name. It was an Alex Salmond. Whatever happened to him?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    I expect his appearance before this committee in two weeks and their report in late June will decide his fate
    He is safe as houses. Just ignore all this, it will be gone in a week.

    Much more serious for Hancock and Boris, they should have learnt from Welsh Government about how to run a vaccination programme more effectively.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    malcolmg said:

    We know who the liars are, they may have made assumptions , it is the English government at Westminster that runs on lies and is full of liars.
    So says the man that supports Alex Salmond. Th fat little toad is so amoral he makes Boris Johnson look like a pillar of moral rectitude (sorry you may need to use a dictionary for those biggy words).

    How do you feel about being a fanbois of a man described as a sex pest by his own QC and his own protege, Ms Sturgeon? And of course, she never never knew of the allegations. How any nationalist has the gall to call others liars. Another case of your psychological projection problem I guess. And how is the anger management going btw?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    And why the vaccine task force worked....got rid of the civil servants, hired top people with specific expert knowledge in a variety of niche roles, told them to get on with it, no time for dicking about, diversity training, etc etc etc.

    Compare with PHE roll out of testing.....but Mr Hancock we can't do more than 10,000 a day, its too hard, its too complicated, there is this issue and that issue, and we will only use PHE labs, and no we won't use outside contractors. My Excel spreadsheet can't cope.
    I admit I am biased here, but the civil service overall is the wrong target there. The problem is the framework it has to operate in (a political choice, and once the choice is made the civil service has to obey) and a complete lack of balls at the top end of the civil service amongst those who should challenge and push against the nonsense.

    The problem isn’t “the civil service”, it’s the ineffectual civil service leadership, and a lack of political desire to strengthen it (e.g. a stronger leader as Perm Sec in the Home Office would have had Patel on toast for bullying his staff).

    I actually don’t think Cummings would disagree with me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    kingbongo said:

    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    Rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations, from the US to Canada, Germany, India and Australia work as Federations, no reason we cannot do too.

    Only the left don't want an English Parliament as it would normally have a Tory majority that is all
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Paul Waugh thread on Cummings evidence on Hancock:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1397490778100977666?s=20
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    HYUFD said:

    Rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations, from the US to Canada, Germany, India and Australia work as Federations, no reason we cannot do too.

    Only the left don't want an English Parliament as it would normally have a Tory majority that is all
    “Only the left”? No, they are right. An English first minister would undermine the U.K. PM at every turn. It’s an unworkable idea.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,753

    I admit I am biased here, but the civil service overall is the wrong target there. The problem is the framework it has to operate in (a political choice, and once the choice is made the civil service has to obey) and a complete lack of balls at the top end of the civil service amongst those who should challenge and push against the nonsense.

    The problem isn’t “the civil service”, it’s the ineffectual civil service leadership, and a lack of political desire to strengthen it (e.g. a stronger leader as Perm Sec in the Home Office would have had Patel on toast for bullying his staff).

    I actually don’t think Cummings would disagree with me.
    Absolutely agree. It was noticeable that Cummings went out of his way to say that there were lots of extremely talented civil servants; the problem was the ineffective (at times) deployment of those talents, as a result of ineffectual leadership.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    HYUFD said:

    Rubbish. Most large and many medium sized nations, from the US to Canada, Germany, India and Australia work as Federations, no reason we cannot do too.

    Only the left don't want an English Parliament as it would normally have a Tory majority that is all
    sigh... no other nation has a country as dominant in its setup as England - that is the problem but, as you are notably dogged in your insistence on sticking to absolutely bonkers ideas no matter what, we should leave it there.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    gealbhan said:

    This is true. It’s documented that rather than drive quality, it drove fiddling to meet the targets. Test kits mailed out on mass were being counted as testing done.

    Conservative supporting newspapers like Telegraph, Mail, Sun let the country down by not calling the government out on this, and by accepting target had been reached.

    When Blair’s government was obsessed by targets, the Conservatives used to speak very eloquently about the dangers of targets.
    Yes, but the only thing in the news was that testing was in the hundreds per day, even as hundreds were dying every day.

    This wasn’t trying to routinely fiddle whether someone waits 3:59 or 4:01 in A&E, it was trying to increase the testing by orders of magnitude within weeks, pushing against a system that had better things to do in their own minds.

    It’s definitely possible to argue for both sides on this one, it’s one of few things DC had said with which I disagree.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Carnyx said:

    voting No was the only way to stay in the EU.
    So they didn't believe the SNP either?
    On one of the few things they told the truth on.....

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    kingbongo said:

    this is nuts - if there were an English government it would be like the SNP on steroids - questioning every single action of the UK govt and attempting to delegitimise it, be allowed to 'approve' its decisions etc - the UK is not suited to be a federation as England dominates - everybody who has thought about this for more than 10 minutes understands this.
    The sensible and easy answer to all this is have an English, Scottish and Welsh parliaments and the current MPs remain at Westminster as a revising chamber for their respective regions, with direct oversight of UK only legislation on defence etc. The current arrangement is completely inequitable. I would also throw in direct election of the PM.

    None of this will happen of course, because we are only an unwritten constitutional quasi-democracy, which some might describe as a pragmatic oligarchy.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Well I believe Cummings before I believe Boris.
    There’s a lot Boris pointedly refused to refute at PMQs, talked jabs and levelling up instead, but he did refute that one which means he must be pretty confident his version can’t be undermined?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    kingbongo said:

    sigh... no other nation has a country as dominant in its setup as England - that is the problem but, as you are notably dogged in your insistence on sticking to absolutely bonkers ideas no matter what, we should leave it there.
    Ontario dominates in Canada for example but it makes no difference as the Federal government only decides for other non English nations on just tax and defence now essentially which would not change
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,242
    gealbhan said:

    There’s a lot Boris pointedly refused to refute at PMQs, talked jabs and levelling up instead, but he did refute that one which means he must be pretty confident his version can’t be undermined?
    Except as Paul Waugh has just pointed out he denied a claim which he then admitted he had not actually heard.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,097
    It was quite obvious sturgeon was deliberately leaking Cobra meetings.

    It is also interesting the SNP continue to stoke anti English sentiment. Their ultimate goal is for people in rUK to get so utterly pissed off we are happy to see them go.

    I don’t subscribe to that view. But there are many many MalcolmGs in Scotland who insanely believe Scotland can swan off with an amazing surplus of money, water and wind and encounter no difficulty whatsoever.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    Wrong sequence there; 2014 was entirely predicated on the UK remaining in the EU, as you well know. It's not even as if you are in the UK or EU yourself.
    The data suggests Brexit has not impacted views in independence
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,236
    DougSeal said:

    The guy who is definately, absolutely, 100% not Anti-English in any way shape or form replies to the UFO and weather obsessive. What a time to be on this board.
    It's like the Algonquin Round Table.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766
    kingbongo said:

    sigh... no other nation has a country as dominant in its setup as England - that is the problem but, as you are notably dogged in your insistence on sticking to absolutely bonkers ideas no matter what, we should leave it there.
    Except that it isn't bonkers if it were done correctly. Have you never heard of constitutional checks and balances? Our constitution was already a mess, but the asymmetrical devolution settlement which the uncharitable might describe as a gerrymandering attempt gone wrong by Labour, only made it even worse. We need a complete constitutional overhaul , including the HoL, the electoral system and direct election of PMs so we are not left with an absurd choice between two complete clowns.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966

    “Only the left”? No, they are right. An English first minister would undermine the U.K. PM at every turn. It’s an unworkable idea.
    No, no, they would be loyal, public spirited and focused on the general good. Just like Nicola. I mean, who could doubt it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,966
    gealbhan said:

    There’s a lot Boris pointedly refused to refute at PMQs, talked jabs and levelling up instead, but he did refute that one which means he must be pretty confident his version can’t be undermined?
    Presumably he's asked Sedwell?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,893
    Selebian said:

    You also get the advantage, with the first approach, of hiring the best people, because all they really want to do is actually get to launch some damn rockets, rather than spend a career pontificating about launching a rocket.
    Tom Mueller, left his job as a top rocket engine designer for SpaceX. Because he met Elon Musk at a hobbyist conference, where he (Mueller) was looking for a test stand to fire the rocket engine he was building in his garage.
    One of the best rocket engine designers in the world was so bored with his day job not actually involving rocket engines - so he was building his own at home....
This discussion has been closed.