Let’s admit it: the Good Friday Agreement is incompatible with Brexit – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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If this global warming thing is going to happen we need to start pulling our weight and stop expecting India & China to do all the hard work.Leon said:11C. Noon. May 1
Sigh
Anyway, last year we had an incredible April followed by a deeply ordinary summer, so I'll happily take a reverse this time.2 -
It's going to be funny if the tories have to do a deal with this radged bastard with a Dickensian name at the next GE.squareroot2 said:I dont know if it has been.mentioned on the thread but the Times is reporting that the favourite to succeed ArlenFoster, Edwin Poots, is a Creationist who believes the Earth was formed only 6000 yrs ago...where do these loons come from?
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Tell me about it. I have an early flowering rhododendron that has been absolutely b*ll*xed by frost. A host of beautiful red blooms turned to shrivelled brown squibs overnight. That's it for another year.Leon said:11C. Noon. May 1
Sigh
I reckon the garden is about three weeks behind where it would normally be at this time of year because of the cold dry weather.0 -
It would appear that the PM's dissembling is contagious. It really doesn't matter what the size of the fishing industry is. What matters is that Boris promised, ad infinitum, that a "fantastic" deal for the fishing industry would result from the Brexit negotiations. If he didn't mean it, he lied repeatedly. If he meant it, he failed miserably.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?5 -
I'm not angry. Just amused at the way you are getting in a froth when asked a simple question you are either unwilling or unable to answer.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
The government of this country lied to this sector and has now abandoned it. It made promises it had no intention of keeping. Fishing folk may have been daft to believe it. Even dafter are people like you who claim to be much more intelligent and knowledgeable about the ways of the world. who support this government, excuse its lies, adopt a world weary cynicism when asked to justify or explain what the government they support is doing and then lash out at those who point this out to them.6 -
Insert your pol of choice for next Friday.
I'm going for Galloway masel (though his results will probably be Saturday).
https://twitter.com/afilina/status/1387882050770833409?s=210 -
Particularly the ones carved from flint !Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest Nick I think all polls need to be taken with caution, especially with a range of 1-14 lead for the conservativesNickPalmer said:
For betting purposes, it's worth noting that this is relatively old YouGov data, cumulating subsamples from ranging from April 14 to 28. It seems credible that the Tories are making progress in the Red Wall area, but this method of sampling, like a constituency poll, doesn't necessarily reflect the demographic mix (because national polls don't try to do that at constituency or regional level) and should be taken with caution.Andy_JS said:"Labour is on course to lose dozens of seats in Red Wall councils to the Conservatives next week, according to a poll in the party’s former heartlands.
The Tories are likely to win majorities in key marginals including Dudley, Northumberland and Derby and increase their number of seats in Red Wall areas by a third, a YouGov survey for The Times has found. The Conservatives are also likely to be the largest party in Bolton." {£}
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-wall-blues-to-deepen-in-former-labour-heartlands-8n5870r7n
(Have we done that one?
) 0 -
Frost took over negotiations in 2019, three years after the fishy Brexit referendum.MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?0 -
It is now a pretty exceptional period of cold weather. We may end up with the coldest spring in decades, and this after a cold hard winter, and a remarkably grey six months, which stared in Septembercontrarian said:
Tell me about it. I have an early flowering rhododendron that has been absolutely b*ll*xed by frost. A host of beautiful red blooms turned to shrivelled brown squibs overnight. That's it for another year.Leon said:11C. Noon. May 1
Sigh
I reckon the garden is about three weeks behind where it would normally be at this time of year because of the cold dry weather.
When they open the borders people will bolt like rats
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Oh be a grown up.Northern_Al said:
It would appear that the PM's dissembling is contagious. It really doesn't matter what the size of the fishing industry is. What matters is that Boris, ad infinitum, promised a "fantastic" deal for the fishing industry would result from the Brexit negotiations. If he didn't mean it, he lied repeatedly. If he meant it, he failed miserably.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Negotiators don't get 100% of what they're going for in any set of tough negotiations. Being in office means making choices, difficult choices, having priorities. If you go into negotiations being "completely honest" you'll be taken to the cleaners and still not get what you ask for, so you'll still be lambasted for being dishonest.
Try to be serious.0 -
I have a cherry tree which usually flowers in late march but still hasn't. The other one I've got has already flowered and finished but it's usually weeks after the other one.contrarian said:
Tell me about it. I have an early flowering rhododendron that has been absolutely b*ll*xed by frost. A host of beautiful red blooms turned to shrivelled brown squibs overnight. That's it for another year.Leon said:11C. Noon. May 1
Sigh
I reckon the garden is about three weeks behind where it would normally be at this time of year because of the cold dry weather.0 -
You have to be in the sun, and sheltered from the wind. As soon as the sun disappears, it is shivering. People outside my flat are wearing winter coatsCyclefree said:
Quite warm in my garden in West Hampstead. Positively sunny in fact.Leon said:11C. Noon. May 1
Sigh
It's miserable. No getting round it
Anyway I think I peaked with "let them eat hake" so I'm away or a few hours. Later, PB, later0 -
And what would you do? In really difficult negotiations, what exactly would you do?Cyclefree said:
I'm not angry. Just amused at the way you are getting in a froth when asked a simple question you are either unwilling or unable to answer.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
The government of this country lied to this sector and has now abandoned it. It made promises it had no intention of keeping. Fishing folk may have been daft to believe it. Even dafter are people like you who claim to be much more intelligent and knowledgeable about the ways of the world. who support this government, excuse its lies, adopt a world weary cynicism when asked to justify or explain what the government they support is doing and then lash out at those who point this out to them.
Be "honest", get taken to the cleaners and get nothing?
In case you missed it the EU didn't get a lot of what they'd been saying in advance they would too. Its called compromise, its how grown ups need to work.0 -
I got mine at the same place as Leon (in Camden) and a couple of days before him. Our posteriors would have graced the exact same seat. Mine first, then just a short while later - his.ThomasNashe said:
I'm rather jealous of those who've received their jabs at Salisbury Cathedral or Westminster Abbey. Colourless, municipal building in Ealing for me.kinabalu said:
Very lyrical. Is that an effect of your jab?Philip_Thompson said:
Its a tale as old as time.Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it!kinabalu said:
But TBF, if to be an authentic socialist you have to opt out of capitalism in a capitalist society there will not be many authentic socialists. It's a pretty high bar to ask someone to jump. Hence the popularity of this view on the right of politics. It's a bit like if I said that to be an authentic believer in free enterprise and a small state a person had to argue for a liquid market in body parts.Sandpit said:
Capitalism always wins!rottenborough said:
It's not cheap running a revolution in North London, comrade.MattW said:
This is Owen Jones with 1800 patrons on Patreon who pay between £3 and £100 a month each?Fishing said:
I forget, did Owen end up supporting Corbyn or not in the end? ISTR he opposed him up to the 2017 election, when Corbyn did alright, then supported him until the 2019 election, which he lost disastrously. When Owen says something, a wise man does the opposite, at least when it comes to winning over Middle England.kinabalu said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/labour-go-for-jugular-tories-rank-elitism
Owen's take on Tory sleaze. His thrust is that Labour risk boring people by focusing on standards in public life and need to inject a fizzy class element - "One rule for them and their rich mates. Another for everyone else."
The history of Labour since Blair is the party trying to get floating voters fired up about inequality, and the floating voters just not being that interested. Oh, that, and four successive election defeats.
https://www.patreon.com/owenjones84
How many religions have preached about 'charity' and living a life of abstinence etc from cathedrals full of gold?0 -
Random fact.kjh said:squareroot2 said:I dont know if it has been.mentioned on the thread but the Times is reporting that the favourite to succeed ArlenFoster, Edwin Poots, is a Creationist who believes the Earth was formed only 6000 yrs ago...where do these loons come from?
I wonder why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible?squareroot2 said:I dont know if it has been.mentioned on the thread but the Times is reporting that the favourite to succeed ArlenFoster, Edwin Poots, is a Creationist who believes the Earth was formed only 6000 yrs ago...where do these loons come from?
George Washington was totally unaware of dinosaurs.0 -
You should read the provisions on LPF and governance. They are not the prize you seem to think they are. In some respects they are worse than what other third party countries get, for instance, Canada, which was endlessly cited by the PM's supporters.Philip_Thompson said:
Clear as day once the deal came through, Barnier got bogged down in fish while Frost made out like a bandit on the other issues.MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Funnily enough since that happened all those who were saying "who cares about fish, its meaningless" have suddenly started saying "but the fish"
Still the facts don't seem to matter tho those who want to believe what they would like to be true.
And I have a garden to clear so have a good day all.0 -
1) Trade patterns should be analysed between NI and GB, using data for the last 5 years
2) These should be risk-assesed for goods that are genuinely at risk of moving from GB to NI to Eire to the EU via a circuitous route (I suspect it's somewhat unlikely a Somerset sausage sent to an Antrim supermarket somehow secretly ends up in Brittany via Cork) and if it's a 1% risk it's simply tolerated with occasional intelligence led spot checks by Irish/EU officials to check
3) Ireland and the UK need to form a British Isles arrangement on SPS standards, just as they currently do for free movement of people under the CTA
4) Ireland needs a special status within the EU to facilitate (2) and (3)
5) That rebalances the GFA - with very light borders in the Irish sea with spot checks and technology for intra GB-NI trade and intra Eire-EU trade - and restablises the situation.
The GFA can then be updated. Job done.2 -
I sort of feel like, having decided that the counting is not going to happen immediately after polls close but scheduled over the weekend, it seems like we really ought to be able to package the whole elections results business up into a nice neat Eurovision style programme for a couple of hours.Theuniondivvie said:Insert your pol of choice for next Friday.
I'm going for Galloway masel (though his results will probably be Saturday).0 -
Indeed. In cahoots with Poots. What a prospect.Dura_Ace said:
It's going to be funny if the tories have to do a deal with this radged bastard with a Dickensian name at the next GE.squareroot2 said:I dont know if it has been.mentioned on the thread but the Times is reporting that the favourite to succeed ArlenFoster, Edwin Poots, is a Creationist who believes the Earth was formed only 6000 yrs ago...where do these loons come from?
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They're far closer to Canada's than the EU, Scott and everyone that side of the fence were claiming was possible this time last year. Far closer.Cyclefree said:
You should read the provisions on LPF and governance. They are not the prize you seem to think they are. In some respects they are worse than what other third party countries get, for instance, Canada, which was endlessly cited by the PM's supporters.Philip_Thompson said:
Clear as day once the deal came through, Barnier got bogged down in fish while Frost made out like a bandit on the other issues.MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Funnily enough since that happened all those who were saying "who cares about fish, its meaningless" have suddenly started saying "but the fish"
Still the facts don't seem to matter tho those who want to believe what they would like to be true.
And I have a garden to clear so have a good day all.
Its a compromise, a compromise we can live with. That's all most sensible adults can ask for. For those who lost out, that's a shame, but as your side of the argument were saying last year its also inconsequential.0 -
Brexiter MPs 2016-20: the people knew exactly what they were voting for in the referendum that didn't specify what Brexit meant.
Brexiter MPs 2021: we didn't know what we were voting for in the parliamentary legislation that specified what Brexit meant.
Sigh. https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/13877371950087290886 -
I'm not saying he is exceptionally "nice" - I don't know him personally - but he certainly doesn't make a habit of posting nasty stuff. I don't know where you're getting this from.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.0 -
You never know, your vaccine may kick in tomorrow and help you to recognise that it may just be preferable to have a PM renowned for honesty and integrity rather than lying and grifting. But my hopes are low.Philip_Thompson said:
Oh be a grown up.Northern_Al said:
It would appear that the PM's dissembling is contagious. It really doesn't matter what the size of the fishing industry is. What matters is that Boris, ad infinitum, promised a "fantastic" deal for the fishing industry would result from the Brexit negotiations. If he didn't mean it, he lied repeatedly. If he meant it, he failed miserably.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Negotiators don't get 100% of what they're going for in any set of tough negotiations. Being in office means making choices, difficult choices, having priorities. If you go into negotiations being "completely honest" you'll be taken to the cleaners and still not get what you ask for, so you'll still be lambasted for being dishonest.
Try to be serious.0 -
Partisan one-sided self-justifying nonsense.NickPalmer said:Enjoyable piece as always from David - I especially like the concept of Schroedinger's Province.
The difficulty is that, although people in GB are as David says largely indifferent to events in NI, people in NI are largely indifferent to the priorities of the UK government. Compared with maintaining peace in NI, Brexit is a very secondary issue for NI voters. Therefore, the proposal to revise the GFA in order to make Brexit work better is explosive, because of the perception that this *might* reignite the Troubles. And that's before you think how the US Congress would react.
Moreover, there is a third way which almost certainly commands popular consent ("support" would overstate it) in NI, which is to make NI a de facto associate member of the EU with close links to Eire, but still independent of Eire. And that's exactly what's happened. In everything that matters in everyday life (trade, cross-border movement), NI is effectively in the EU. And yes, it creates a border in the Irish Sea for trade purposes, but the inconveniences caused by that are minor compared with a real border between NI and Eire, because for now the UK and EU have the same regulations, so there isn't much to check.
Is it logical? No. Is it durable? For a while, until UK and EU legislation differ so much that the Irish Sea border needs to start checking seriously whether, for instance, genetically-engineered food is crossing. Perhaps by then, there will be a wider consensus for Irish unity, or some other solution. But as a pragmatic solution for now, it works, and that's what matters to most people.
PS And yes, it means Johnson lied when he said there wouldn't be an Irish Sea border. But supporting the Conservatives these days requires a certain insouciance about truth.
The only solution that maintains peace in NI is where both communities (who largely voted very differently on the issue of Brexit) are treated equitably.
That means giving equal attention to both mitigating the land border and the sea border in parallel with how the UK and Ireland decide to treat with the EU.0 -
Yes and the difference in how the negotiations went between when Frost was doing it, to when Robbins was, is like night and day.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Frost took over negotiations in 2019, three years after the fishy Brexit referendum.MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Barnier ran rings around Robbins. Frost got Barnier bogged down in fish and sorted everything else out.0 -
I share the unfashionable opinion that most MPs could earn more in other fields. I also hold the equally unfashionable opinion that most are in politics for the right reason - public service.Fysics_Teacher said:
More of a problem I think is the fact that for someone like Owen Jones (who love him or loath him is a very articulate and interesting writer and speaker) would take a significant pay cut if he were elected as an MP: not exactly an incentive to get the brightest and best in when many can earn significantly more outside.kinabalu said:
Hardly a shattering sum. And what do you want him to do? Either stop knocking capitalism or stop earning decent money?Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
It’s not a popular opinion, but I think our MPs are badly underpaid for the job we expect them to do. My solution would be to get them to stop pretending to be social workers and concentrate on the legislative role, letting those that want to carry on with their day job. After all we expect the PM to be able to do that job while being an MP so it should be doable for many other jobs as well.5 -
-
Or very unlucky. It's remarkable how sanguine people are about it.SouthamObserver said:
Unification is around 20 years away if that polling you linked to is right, so Joe is very unlikely to live to see it. We might, though, if we are lucky.Alanbrooke said:
:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.SouthamObserver said:
The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.Alanbrooke said:
America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.SouthamObserver said:
The age gap in the North is very striking.Alanbrooke said:On topic
Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )
South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.
Northerners think they will be worse off financially
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html
America will pay.
As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.
How do you think hardcore Unionists are going to take it if they lose 51% to 49%?
They will resist it with force.
A border poll doesn't work unless majorities in both communities back it (which would look like a 65-70% result) so the extremists can then be marginalised.0 -
Yeah right, and post-lockdown perhaps we can meet up to play Poker? You can operate with honesty and integrity telling me what cards you're dealt before each hand.Northern_Al said:
You never know, your vaccine may kick in tomorrow and help you to recognise that it may just be preferable to have a PM renowned for honesty and integrity rather than lying and grifting. But my hopes are low.Philip_Thompson said:
Oh be a grown up.Northern_Al said:
It would appear that the PM's dissembling is contagious. It really doesn't matter what the size of the fishing industry is. What matters is that Boris, ad infinitum, promised a "fantastic" deal for the fishing industry would result from the Brexit negotiations. If he didn't mean it, he lied repeatedly. If he meant it, he failed miserably.MaxPB said:
Honestly, this is why your righteous anger never really hits the mark. Why he obtuse, you know the answers the the question, I know the answer the the question. In fact the whole world realises and no one cares because fishing is worth about 3p to the UK economy.Cyclefree said:
And Ministers told the fishing industry this, did they? And voters? Or are you saying that they lied?MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Negotiators don't get 100% of what they're going for in any set of tough negotiations. Being in office means making choices, difficult choices, having priorities. If you go into negotiations being "completely honest" you'll be taken to the cleaners and still not get what you ask for, so you'll still be lambasted for being dishonest.
Try to be serious.
I'm sure that will go well and you'll feel self-satisfied. Sound good?0 -
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.1 -
@Philip_Thompson pleased to hear you've got your jab.
It's now only one year away from me on the age threshold!2 -
Re Northern Ireland.
I notice all the 'empty supermarket shelves' stories have stopped.1 -
Will you two young pups stop boasting please.Casino_Royale said:@Philip_Thompson pleased to hear you've got your jab.
It's now only one year away from me on the age threshold!1 -
Another day another fall:
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
Data not dates is the slogan
Dates not data is the strategy0 -
I reside in Northern Ireland, awful terminology from the author.0
-
Your first point is almost certainly true, and the second is obviously a matter of opinion. But I wonder if you don't overstate your agency in this. What Labour really needs to win power in the 2020s is for the Conservatives to screw up completely and unmistakably about some issue which really affects people every day, in the same way that Conservative mistakes in the 1990s paid such enormous dividends to Tony Blair. But Boris with an 80-seat majority is a much more formidable politician than John Major without a working majority.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.0 -
This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.16 -
So you would advocate the immediate lifting of all restrictions or perhaps treat May 17th as some form of "Final Freedom Monday" (all these "Freedom Mondays" are getting boring)?another_richard said:Another day another fall:
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
Data not dates is the slogan
Dates not data is the strategy
I presume the Government wants to increase the fully vaccinated numbers further before the final ending of restrictions.0 -
Same here technically (38, but will be 39 in July which is what they base it on). But I got the text, not sure why, my GP must just be ahead of schedule. 🤷♂️Casino_Royale said:@Philip_Thompson pleased to hear you've got your jab.
It's now only one year away from me on the age threshold!1 -
We have quite clearly hit herd immunity. It should be open by now.another_richard said:Another day another fall:
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
Data not dates is the slogan
Dates not data is the strategy0 -
Yes but you cannot claim this was known in 2016 when people voted for Brexit. Some, no doubt, because of the fishing claims by the Brexit side.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes and the difference in how the negotiations went between when Frost was doing it, to when Robbins was, is like night and day.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Frost took over negotiations in 2019, three years after the fishy Brexit referendum.MaxPB said:
To get the EU to waste time and resources on it in the negotiations. Anyone who was paying attention realised that from the moment Frost took over, fish was only ever a negotiating tool for the UK. They were always going to get sold down the river in order to give leverage in other bits of the negotiations such as the LPF and governance where we got much bigger prizes.Cyclefree said:
Hang on. This is not what we were told in the lead up to the referendum. Nor in the lead up to the deal the PM agreed when a lot of other far more valuable sectors were sacrificed. The fishing industry was never off the lips of senior Ministers. It seemed to be the only thing they cared about.MaxPB said:
They export oil and gas to the UK. It's not as if they won't find other buyers for it in about 2.3 seconds.Leon said:The UK is Norway's largest export market. We take 20% of everything they ship out. Without us, they'd be fucked
In that light, why aren't we waterboarding them, metaphorically?
Close our market to them until they yield on fish
Ultimately the government has made the (correct IMO) call that fishing is an industry that will have to live or die without significant support from the state. It simply isn't a key industry for us.
So what was it all for, if not them?
Barnier ran rings around Robbins. Frost got Barnier bogged down in fish and sorted everything else out.0 -
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.1 -
All recent polls remain consistent with (and only with) Con 42 Lab 35/36. Should be enough to keep Hartlepool Labour.MattW said:
Particularly the ones carved from flint !Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest Nick I think all polls need to be taken with caution, especially with a range of 1-14 lead for the conservativesNickPalmer said:
For betting purposes, it's worth noting that this is relatively old YouGov data, cumulating subsamples from ranging from April 14 to 28. It seems credible that the Tories are making progress in the Red Wall area, but this method of sampling, like a constituency poll, doesn't necessarily reflect the demographic mix (because national polls don't try to do that at constituency or regional level) and should be taken with caution.Andy_JS said:"Labour is on course to lose dozens of seats in Red Wall councils to the Conservatives next week, according to a poll in the party’s former heartlands.
The Tories are likely to win majorities in key marginals including Dudley, Northumberland and Derby and increase their number of seats in Red Wall areas by a third, a YouGov survey for The Times has found. The Conservatives are also likely to be the largest party in Bolton." {£}
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/red-wall-blues-to-deepen-in-former-labour-heartlands-8n5870r7n
(Have we done that one? )
2 -
You're very kind, and the respect is reciprocated. But if you're in a system you don't agree with, you have to make the best of it, while being honest about your disagreement. It would be hypocritical if OJ secretly thought that capitalism was splendid, but argued otherwise to make money. But if people want to pay him to express his honest opinions, why not? It's not even a very capitalist thing to do.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
Whether one likes his opinions or not is a separate issue, of course. In the same way, I don't object to the editor of the Daily Express making a living out of what are presumably his or her opinions. He'd be equally entitled to do that in my preferred democratic socialist society too, though he might pay more tax and could spend his time demanding the return of capitalism.1 -
Good luck raising money in the bond markets:
EXCL: Alex Salmond says Scotland should pursue 'clean break' with UK on national debt during any independence talks:
"That is no debt and no assets shared."
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1388391594940899328?s=20
You could kiss goodbye to the CTA while you were at it.....2 -
Taking the word 'we' at the end to mean the writer and the reader - in this case me - could Northern Monkey explain what either he, me or any PB readers have done that is so shameful? I would love to know because then I could do something about it. Until I do, I won't feel shame; but will feel strongly about others who use violence for political ends in a one person one vote democracy.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
0 -
I too was stopped by some soldiers pre-GFA in NI, though it wasn't as unsettling for me as it was for you, maybe because I was younger, or maybe because I'd already crossed the Iron Curtain.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
The only people who need to hang their heads in shame are the ones committing the violence, often just using political slogans to cover their protection of their drug empires or extortion rackets. We shouldn't legitimise their violence by pretending it is justified by the implementation of the largest popular mandate in British history.2 -
I would bring the May 17th lifting forward one week - allowing people preparation time - and the June restriction lifting forward two weeks.stodge said:
So you would advocate the immediate lifting of all restrictions or perhaps treat May 17th as some form of "Final Freedom Monday" (all these "Freedom Mondays" are getting boring)?another_richard said:Another day another fall:
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
Data not dates is the slogan
Dates not data is the strategy
I presume the Government wants to increase the fully vaccinated numbers further before the final ending of restrictions.
I think that takes into account the better than expected situation without overly upsetting the more nervous.3 -
Meanwhile, even in MD - one of the States with the highest uptake levels, it appears that supply is outstripping demand in the US. Local neighborhood chat sites here are posting locations (plural) daily where doses will have to be binned if not used that evening. All 4 local pharmacies (in a small town, 15,000 population) have and are administering the vaccines now to the general population on a walk-in basis.Philip_Thompson said:
Same here technically (38, but will be 39 in July which is what they base it on). But I got the text, not sure why, my GP must just be ahead of schedule. 🤷♂️Casino_Royale said:@Philip_Thompson pleased to hear you've got your jab.
It's now only one year away from me on the age threshold!
PS And it was announced last night on the news that 100M US citizens are now fully vaccinated.1 -
Wasn't that more-or-less the British Government's position under David Cameron or am I misremembering?CarlottaVance said:Good luck raising money in the bond markets:
EXCL: Alex Salmond says Scotland should pursue 'clean break' with UK on national debt during any independence talks:
"That is no debt and no assets shared."
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1388391594940899328?s=20
You could kiss goodbye to the CTA while you were at it.....0 -
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.0 -
aah, the old Gun-Runners defence.Fishing said:
I too was stopped by some soldiers pre-GFA in NI, though it wasn't as unsettling for me as it was for you, maybe because I was younger, or maybe because I'd already crossed the Iron Curtain.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
The only people who need to hang their heads in shame are the ones committing the violence, often just using political slogans to cover their protection of their drug empires or extortion rackets. We shouldn't legitimise their violence by pretending it is justified by the implementation of the largest popular mandate in British history.0 -
That makes sense, but of course the other question is whether anybody else in the running would do any better?kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.0 -
I won't pretend to understand the nuances of Northern Ireland.TheGreenMachine said:I reside in Northern Ireland, awful terminology from the author.
From where I sit, the departure of the UK from the EU fundamentally changed the economic relationship between London and Dublin. For the first time since 1922, arguably, Ireland is now an independent state at least in terms of it being treated by the UK in economic terms on the same level as Belgium or Holland.
From independence to 1973, there was in effect a common economic area, or single market, to use the modern vernacular, between the UK and the Republic. People moved freely between the two countries and the currencies were effectively linked.
To be fair, though, the divergence has been evident for some time. The decades of being an impoverished agricultural backwater are over - the Ireland of the 2020s is a very different place. Dublin, Cork and Galway all buzz with prosperity - the huge Microsoft building overlooking Leopardstown Racecourse screams modernity.
Perhaps it's more about historical preconceptions and misconceptions that no longer chime with any reality. Sometimes, the politics doesn't keep up with those changes - the world overtakes the politics and renders it anachronistic. You see that everywhere.0 -
“No debt and no assets”? “No assets”? Any British government offered that would be unable to believe it’s luck!CarlottaVance said:Good luck raising money in the bond markets:
EXCL: Alex Salmond says Scotland should pursue 'clean break' with UK on national debt during any independence talks:
"That is no debt and no assets shared."
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1388391594940899328?s=20
You could kiss goodbye to the CTA while you were at it.....
2 -
It’s just a shame they hunt out the most unpleasant people they can find and elect them as their politicians.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
An interesting and thoughtful lead, which was going well until it arrived at the point where its thesis required some leadership from number ten.0 -
Careful. I got my vaccine in the morning, but the side effects kicked in at about 9 o'clock that night.Philip_Thompson said:Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪
Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.
No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?0 -
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.2 -
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.0 -
Broadly agree. This Johnson manifestation of the Cons has a strong grip on a big enough base - derived from Leave - as to make them a bugger to shift, let alone in one go. So we need help from them. A massive identifiable screw-up would be great, of course, and it's very possible, but what might also do the trick is something I judge more likely - a long slow dreary hangover after the quick succession dopamine hits of Brexit delivery and pandemic beating vaccines.Fishing said:
Your first point is almost certainly true, and the second is obviously a matter of opinion. But I wonder if you don't overstate your agency in this. What Labour really needs to win power in the 2020s is for the Conservatives to screw up completely and unmistakably about some issue which really affects people every day, in the same way that Conservative mistakes in the 1990s paid such enormous dividends to Tony Blair. But Boris with an 80-seat majority is a much more formidable politician than John Major without a working majority.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.1 -
This x 100%Fishing said:
I too was stopped by some soldiers pre-GFA in NI, though it wasn't as unsettling for me as it was for you, maybe because I was younger, or maybe because I'd already crossed the Iron Curtain.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
The only people who need to hang their heads in shame are the ones committing the violence, often just using political slogans to cover their protection of their drug empires or extortion rackets. We shouldn't legitimise their violence by pretending it is justified by the implementation of the largest popular mandate in British history.
People are justifying or excusing violence, or threats of violence, to justify their own agendas. When the perpetrators agenda is drug trafficking, trafficking etc and all of this is incidental to them.
Democracy shouldn't get trumped by violence, or the threat of it.1 -
Fair enough.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.2 -
How do you explain Rishi's last budget (which No 10 had to clear as first secretary of the treasury) then?Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.1 -
The people of NI are at liberty to elect decent moderate democrats without tribal baggage if they wish. It is notable that they often have not.IanB2 said:
It’s just a shame they hunt out the most unpleasant people they can find and elect them as their politicians.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
An interesting and thoughtful lead, which was going well until it arrived at the point where its thesis required some leadership from number ten.
0 -
I've had such zero side effects I sometimes wonder if I've even had an immune response ! Pfizer, not AZ though.Stark_Dawning said:
Careful. I got my vaccine in the morning, but the side effects kicked in at about 9 o'clock that night.Philip_Thompson said:Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪
Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.
No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?0 -
Afternoon all
I'll wait for others to expound at length on the latest Kantar poll on EU membership.
I suspect a lengthy exposition on the intricacies of Latvian politics would be of greater interest and relevance.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1388422033525051392/photo/1
Now, the share enjoyed by the five-party coalition Government has fallen from 57.6% at the 2018 election to 49.3% now. The winners are the Green parties who have advanced from 5.8% to 10.5% while the Social Democrats have also fallen back.
Now, you're no doubt asking who is the LuK? Is it Love the United Kingdom, a pro-British party? I fear not - it stands for Likums un Kartiba which, and I realise most of you are fluent in Latvian, stands for "Law and Order". Now, parties of that name tend to be of a particular type - a bit populist, a bit on the right side of the fence, usually led by some disgruntled politician from another party.
Well, LuK ticks all those boxes - it was founded in January by one Aldis Gobzems who left the KPV LV (who, as you can see, have suffered the kind of post-election slump even the LDs have avoided).
Latvia goes to the polls in October 2022.2 -
People talk about that but forget that in 2010-12 - less than 10 years ago - Ireland was in real trouble. In fact, we had to bail them out. Lots of people lost their shirts on collapsing house prices.stodge said:
I won't pretend to understand the nuances of Northern Ireland.TheGreenMachine said:I reside in Northern Ireland, awful terminology from the author.
From where I sit, the departure of the UK from the EU fundamentally changed the economic relationship between London and Dublin. For the first time since 1922, arguably, Ireland is now an independent state at least in terms of it being treated by the UK in economic terms on the same level as Belgium or Holland.
From independence to 1973, there was in effect a common economic area, or single market, to use the modern vernacular, between the UK and the Republic. People moved freely between the two countries and the currencies were effectively linked.
To be fair, though, the divergence has been evident for some time. The decades of being an impoverished agricultural backwater are over - the Ireland of the 2020s is a very different place. Dublin, Cork and Galway all buzz with prosperity - the huge Microsoft building overlooking Leopardstown Racecourse screams modernity.
Perhaps it's more about historical preconceptions and misconceptions that no longer chime with any reality. Sometimes, the politics doesn't keep up with those changes - the world overtakes the politics and renders it anachronistic. You see that everywhere.
Yes, there are a few big American corporate HQs there that provide well-paid jobs, but don't be misled into thinking that's representative or that the Irish all live the Life of Riley.0 -
Nothing really unique about any of it, but rather interesting conversation between Shearer and Wright on race. I know its hard to get people to watch a conversation rather than, say, a short TV interview or just trawling for comments of one side or another on twitter, but it feels like a much more effective way of getting people to engage in these issues without getting dismissive or defensive.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/569493600 -
Not sure which sub-thread to answer on, so I'll try this onekinabalu said:
Hardly a shattering sum. And what do you want him to do? Either stop knocking capitalism or stop earning decent money?Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system. .
Personally I think Owen Jones is a bit of an oaf, though that's not the key issue here.
I think the problems with being a wealthy person who preaches a variety of socialism are twofold: verisimilitude and losing the link between the theory and experience so you cannot speak without seeming like a performing seal.
For Jones, he will be bringing in a far larger income than he needs which (without some setup to show it is untrue) says that his practice does not underpin his belief in redistribution.
More problematically, if he is living a semi-celeb life on 4 or 10 times the average income, he will lose the practical experience to speak for the 'poor' and 'oppressed' he would claim to represent. He will need to get that from somewhere or he will lose a sense of what 'ordinary' is. "I lived on a Council Estate 25 years ago" will not cut the mustard.
He will have a platform, but he will be addressing people like himself rather than people he wants to speak for.
I think that Michael Meacher is *perhaps* one example of what happens - an alleged far (ish) left old Lab type preaching against evil landlords, whilst having his own multimillion string of rental property. It doesn't ring true. I could make a similar point about Benn - living in a huge house for decades, whilst talking about housing shortages, which he could have met himself by converting parts of it to flats.
I'm impressed by @NickPalmer because he has what I would call a Rule of Life, or Discipline, to help causes, and equally importantly to keep himself honest.
If someone is having a lecture about green things, my normal test is to ask them the Energy Efficiency of their own house. If they don't know or if it is not as good as it can be, that is a flag that they don't really believe what they claim; if they did, they would have done something about it.
I like to hold people who wish to tell everybody else what to do to a higher standard than those who do not seek to interfere.
Now out in the sun for a bit.1 -
That’s my point really. I don’t think he will either. I think the post-Covid pitch will be “let the good times role” and “pave the red wall with gold”. The bill will come due, but not until after he’s been re-elected.Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful careerSandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.
That’s the challenge for Labour.
0 -
Any links to the SS at all?stodge said:Afternoon all
Now, you're no doubt asking who is the LuK? Is it Love the United Kingdom, a pro-British party? I fear not - it stands for Likums un Kartiba which, and I realise most of you are fluent in Latvian, stands for "Law and Order". Now, parties of that name tend to be of a particular type - a bit populist, a bit on the right side of the fence, usually led by some disgruntled politician from another party.
Oh Tim. How we miss you.0 -
F1: pre-qualifying (no tip):
https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/05/portugal-pre-qualifying-2021.html1 -
Shhhhh - don’t let the sceptics in on the secret placebo strategy.Pulpstar said:
I've had such zero side effects I sometimes wonder if I've even had an immune response ! Pfizer, not AZ though.Stark_Dawning said:
Careful. I got my vaccine in the morning, but the side effects kicked in at about 9 o'clock that night.Philip_Thompson said:Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪
Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.
No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?
0 -
You don't know until you give them the job. I voted for Nandy and if Starmer goes before the GE (which I doubt) I probably would again. I'm on here for next PM at 120 to cover exactly this scenario. Starmer doesn't cut it and goes. She takes over and does well. The GE comes and returns a hung parliament with enough Labour seats to form a government. This is (for me) a bigger slim chance than 120.Fishing said:
That makes sense, but of course the other question is whether anybody else in the running would do any better?kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.1 -
It was until the GFA, certainly from the IRA side, now the Irish Sea border has effectively ended the GFA for the loyalist paramilitary side.Philip_Thompson said:
This x 100%Fishing said:
I too was stopped by some soldiers pre-GFA in NI, though it wasn't as unsettling for me as it was for you, maybe because I was younger, or maybe because I'd already crossed the Iron Curtain.northern_monkey said:This article gives me a splendid opportunity to shoehorn in a personal anecdote.
Many moons ago I ended up with a Northern Irish, Catholic, girlfriend. By pure coincidence the first time I went over there to meet her family was when the GFA was signed.
They picked me up from the airport, a few days before the agreement was signed, and we set off for the hour or so drive down to Newry. As we approached the town suddenly the traffic ahead of us slowed and stopped. There was a temporary roadblock, set up by a British Army foot patrol.
When we got to the front my then-girlfriend, her older sister and mother were unfazed. They’d obviously been through this scenario many times before. They sat there, passive aggressive, answering the questions.
I’ve never forgotten how much of an unsettling experience it was for me. I had a young Scouse squaddie, SA80 slung round his neck with the barrel pointed uncomfortably close to me, shining a torch in my face, asking me quite aggressively who I was, where I was going and why. He seemed to soften slightly when he heard my broad Yorkshire accent saying ‘I’m English mate, just got here, visiting my girlfriend.’
It was so strange to have to go through that in what is my own country. I felt sorry for NI people having to go through that, day in day out, and I felt sorry for the poor squaddies who had to hassle their fellow countrymen in that way.
The next day we were driving along, turned a corner and in the field at the side of the road there was a helicopter landing, squaddies jumping out and aiming their rifles all around, including at the car I was in.
I visited the place a few more times before we split up and I never saw anything like that again. The GFA quickly reduced the military presence and the place felt much like the rest of the UK.
I am no fan of Brexit, in any way shape of form. But the idea that NI might return to violence, to quasi-military occupation, breaks my heart. The NI people were never anything but friendly and welcoming, even in the border, Catholic areas I primarily visited. I never felt unsafe going into bars and pubs in nationalist areas, indeed I was always made to feel very welcome.
Most people in Northern Ireland just want peace. If Brexit leads to a return to violence we should hang our heads in shame.
The only people who need to hang their heads in shame are the ones committing the violence, often just using political slogans to cover their protection of their drug empires or extortion rackets. We shouldn't legitimise their violence by pretending it is justified by the implementation of the largest popular mandate in British history.
People are justifying or excusing violence, or threats of violence, to justify their own agendas. When the perpetrators agenda is drug trafficking, trafficking etc and all of this is incidental to them.
Democracy shouldn't get trumped by violence, or the threat of it.
If last night's Survation poll is correct the Tories would lose their majority and have to get DUP support again at minimum to stay in power which would mean they would have to remove the Irish Sea border to keep office.
So the choice would likely be a hard border in Ireland rather than the Irish Sea with the Tories or regulatory alignment with the single market again for the whole UK under Starmer0 -
It is rather unlikely. But if we're lucky something external will occur (eg market malfunction) and the roof will fall in.Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.0 -
Just to say the final "polls" (those conducted after the legal ban) continue to suggest a huge win for the Popular Party in the Madrilenian (that's the term) regional election tomorrow.
Looks like a 13% swing from PSOE to PP which wouldn't be of any significance in East Ham Central but in Madrid it's going to mean, just as happened in the UK in 2015, the "junior partner" in the regional government, Citizens, are going to be swept away with the PP picking up most of their votes and seats.
The PP leader basically threw the Citizens out of the Coalition (why didn't that nice Mr Cameron do that, some may ask?) and called a snap election.
Mas Madrid (a regional split from Podemos) are going to do well enough to be a strong third with VOX and UP little changed. Their combined vote with PSOE will be about the same as PP but the only result I can see is a re-elected PP Government.2 -
Really? You want the roof to fall in on UK plc? Where were you planning to live next?kinabalu said:
It is rather unlikely. But if we're lucky something external will occur (eg market malfunction) and the roof will fall in.Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.1 -
Finally, some politicians with nothing to hide.
2 -
Sort of like Covid19?kinabalu said:
It is rather unlikely. But if we're lucky something external will occur (eg market malfunction) and the roof will fall in.Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.
You want to go through something like this again? You're wishing for that?0 -
A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.0
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In this green & pleasant land, detoxed from Johnson. Going misty-eyed just at the thought.DavidL said:
Really? You want the roof to fall in on UK plc? Where were you planning to live next?kinabalu said:
It is rather unlikely. But if we're lucky something external will occur (eg market malfunction) and the roof will fall in.Dura_Ace said:
It's delusional to think any Johnson helmed government is going to think or act in financially constrained way.Time_to_Leave said:
I think the State Opening in a few weeks will tell us a lot. It will show what the Government thinks it has to offer, and how much it’s likely to feel like a financially constrained fag end administration.kinabalu said:
I'm giving SKS another year before I decide whether he can or he can't make the next GE competitive. We'll have had enough post pandemic, post Brexit time by then for me to judge him.Casino_Royale said:
A very effective Labour leader would be able to put a modernising and moderate message in a way that resonates with the Left. It's about the story you tell and how you link it with policy to the challenges of the future.kinabalu said:
We won't win an election if we put the left in charge. And we won't have a platform worth winning on if we ignore the left. That's how I view things in Labour atm.Fishing said:
He makes money telling woke Guardianistas what they want to hear. Fair enough. It's a good business model, and even an honourable one if he believes most of what he says. But it's not a good model for winning elections in Milton Keynes or wherever.squareroot2 said:
For someone who is a "nice guy" he posts some pretty nasty stuff.kinabalu said:
Yes, all "tiers" get the same content. So it's 3 quid basically. Glad to see that. Very different to Lozza's offering. There the £100 per month "Top Fox" membership gets you all sorts of perks such as "dinner once a year" with the man himself. How about that eh? Dinner with Laurence Fox once a year. Just imagine the suspense as that day approaches and finally dawns. Making a list of things to talk about. The agonizing over what to wear. Just the whole sense of occasion.Northern_Al said:
You're being somewhat unfair to Owen Jones. His Patreon channel offers exactly the same content to all subscribers, whether they pay £3 per month or £100. Socialism in action, I'd say. I'd guess most pay £3. And the income is not used to line his own pockets - it's used to hire staff and resources to produce videos, podcasts etc. I'm sure Jones has a healthy income from his journalism and his books, so I'd be astonished if he uses any of the Patreon subscriptions for personal gain.Sandpit said:
I didn’t mean you Nick, who had a successful private sector career and then went into politics as an elected representative.NickPalmer said:
Is it? Through a mixture of hard work and sheer luck, I've had a very successful career in private industry, two self-employed businesses and a senior charity role. But I'd rather live in a society which paid me less and was more equal. In the absence of that, I live fairly modestly and give the rest away. What's the inconsistency? Do I need to fail in work in order to qualify to criticise the system?Sandpit said:
It’s amazing how many people preaching socialism, have found themselves a way to make a good living from it [Sandpit is referring to capitalism]!
In general, there are lots of people who are talented or fortunate enough to do well under any system, but who would like one with more equal outcomes, reflecting the degree of luck in making a success of life in financial terms.
I was referring to the likes of Owen Jones, who seems to be earning close to ten grand a month from Patreon, writing polemic about how capitalism is awful and we need to smash up the system.
No, Owen is a good guy. The reason people hate him is that he's articulate and effective. Plus his youthful look and motormouth vibe turns some off. But I like him. And if you read/view the actual output you find it's nothing like the crazed lefty of caricature.
Alas, I can't see Starmer doing a Kinnock. Yet alone a Blair.0 -
Well, putting aside the credibility of that information for a moment, if that was not the case they would have no chance would they? PVs tend to be older people who are disproportionately Conservative voters. They will be ahead right now. The question is whether they are ahead enough.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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The gap between voting closing and then weekend counting (in Scotland anyway, don't know the rest of the election counting strategies) might prove additional fertile ground for rumour.kle4 said:
Ah, the siren song of rumour and suggestions regarding postal votes, how I have missed thee.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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That picture on the second must be public domain or something, I recall seeing it in an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Season 5 Episode 7. They aren't nude, they're wearing jeans. So even this party has something to hide (or the show photoshopped jeans on).Quincel said:Finally, some politicians with nothing to hide.
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Did they make it to the TV debates?Quincel said:Finally, some politicians with nothing to hide.
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How does the mechanics of weekend counting work, do they collect all the ballot boxes on Thursday night and lock them in a police station or guarded room?solarflare said:
The gap between voting closing and then weekend counting (in Scotland anyway, don't know the rest of the election counting strategies) might prove additional fertile ground for rumour.kle4 said:
Ah, the siren song of rumour and suggestions regarding postal votes, how I have missed thee.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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Northern Al's experience of aggressive policing in NI is interesting. Without getting into the intracies of Israeli politics, I get the impression that life on the West Bank is rather similar. I don't underestimate how nerve-wracking it is to police an area with people who'd like to kill you, but in the long run, it's unwise to give people the impression of a default assumption that they're enemies, since they may come to decide that perhaps they are.0
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PP looking likely to get around 60 seats. With 69 needed for a majority.stodge said:Just to say the final "polls" (those conducted after the legal ban) continue to suggest a huge win for the Popular Party in the Madrilenian (that's the term) regional election tomorrow.
Looks like a 13% swing from PSOE to PP which wouldn't be of any significance in East Ham Central but in Madrid it's going to mean, just as happened in the UK in 2015, the "junior partner" in the regional government, Citizens, are going to be swept away with the PP picking up most of their votes and seats.
The PP leader basically threw the Citizens out of the Coalition (why didn't that nice Mr Cameron do that, some may ask?) and called a snap election.
Mas Madrid (a regional split from Podemos) are going to do well enough to be a strong third with VOX and UP little changed. Their combined vote with PSOE will be about the same as PP but the only result I can see is a re-elected PP Government.
Any speculation on who they will turn to for partners now they have brutally done away with C's?0 -
Haven't a clue if I'm honest but would be interested to know the exact specificsSandpit said:
How does the mechanics of weekend counting work, do they collect all the ballot boxes on Thursday night and lock them in a police station or guarded room?solarflare said:
The gap between voting closing and then weekend counting (in Scotland anyway, don't know the rest of the election counting strategies) might prove additional fertile ground for rumour.kle4 said:
Ah, the siren song of rumour and suggestions regarding postal votes, how I have missed thee.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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The UK contributed to an overall bailout package. We provided £3.25 billion, the final repayment of which was due at the end of March - the overall EU package was 85 billion euros so, to be blunt, we made a small contribution which, of course, we weren't obliged to as we weren't part of the Eurozone.Casino_Royale said:
People talk about that but forget that in 2010-12 - less than 10 years ago - Ireland was in real trouble. In fact, we had to bail them out. Lots of people lost their shirts on collapsing house prices.
Yes, there are a few big American corporate HQs there that provide well-paid jobs, but don't be misled into thinking that's representative or that the Irish all live the Life of Riley.
I'm under no illusion Ireland, just like the UK and many other places, has areas of wealth and areas of poverty. I suspect there are parts of North Dublin and parts of rural Ireland which are still in relative poverty but that's true of the UK as well.
Indeed, I'd observe the same economic conditions and issues apply in Ireland as apply in the UK - as an example, housing affordability for the young is, I believe, a big issue in parts of Ireland as it is in many parts of the UK.0 -
Dear lord, you are quite right!kle4 said:
That picture on the second must be public domain or something, I recall seeing it in an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Season 5 Episode 7. They aren't nude, they're wearing jeans. So even this party has something to hide (or the show photoshopped jeans on).Quincel said:Finally, some politicians with nothing to hide.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/two-naked-seniors-laughing-fighting-fun-1085206250 -
Well the boxes are all sealed and in secure locations, I'm not sure if guards will be generally used, but possibly, as I suppose ordinarily they'd not be out of someone's sight until opened. I'd have thought most were being verified on Friday even if counting is being done over the weekend, so wouldn't be alone for long.Sandpit said:
How does the mechanics of weekend counting work, do they collect all the ballot boxes on Thursday night and lock them in a police station or guarded room?solarflare said:
The gap between voting closing and then weekend counting (in Scotland anyway, don't know the rest of the election counting strategies) might prove additional fertile ground for rumour.kle4 said:
Ah, the siren song of rumour and suggestions regarding postal votes, how I have missed thee.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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They won’t get left alone, it will take two or three days for MI5 to rub out all the pencil crosses for the SNP and replace them.Sandpit said:
How does the mechanics of weekend counting work, do they collect all the ballot boxes on Thursday night and lock them in a police station or guarded room?solarflare said:
The gap between voting closing and then weekend counting (in Scotland anyway, don't know the rest of the election counting strategies) might prove additional fertile ground for rumour.kle4 said:
Ah, the siren song of rumour and suggestions regarding postal votes, how I have missed thee.justin124 said:A suggestion on the Vote UK forum that early PVs in Hartlepool have been good for the Tories.
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It isn't only useless political minutae I retain.Quincel said:
Dear lord, you are quite right!kle4 said:
That picture on the second must be public domain or something, I recall seeing it in an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Season 5 Episode 7. They aren't nude, they're wearing jeans. So even this party has something to hide (or the show photoshopped jeans on).Quincel said:Finally, some politicians with nothing to hide.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/two-naked-seniors-laughing-fighting-fun-108520625
The plot thickens though - the image from the episode I watched seems to have different coloured trousers/jeans, so either its a lighting issue or they adjusted the stock image for some reason, or there's several versions.0
