Let’s admit it: the Good Friday Agreement is incompatible with Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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Let’s admit it: the Good Friday Agreement is incompatible with Brexit – politicalbetting.com

No-one cares about Northern Ireland. Lots of people say they do of course but in reality, as long as bombs aren’t going off (or, at worst, are only going off in Derry or Strabane or the like), then it’s either left to get on by itself, an insoluble problem best left alone, or a political football to be kicked in the interests of whoever’s kicking it. If they did care, it would have had a much higher profile during the Brexit debate, and would have been treated with greater respect and awareness during the negotiations afterwards.

Read the full story here

Carnyx

First. Mmm, interesting.

Isn't the holding of the border poll explicitly put in the hands of the SoSfNI to decide on? So it's up to Mr Johnson to decide. Which implies ...

Sean_F

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

SouthamObserver

In the abstract, David's piece makes a lot of sense. In the real world, it means a whole heap of trouble in so many different ways. To steer a path through the debris that Brexit has created in Northern Ireland would require a level of leadership that is just not available. Fudge is the only alternative. And that means the GFA is here to stay.

tlg86

Interesting stuff, thanks David.

The assumption about a border poll in NI is that the options would be the status quo v a United Ireland. But it is interesting to think of it might be a United Ireland v a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Sean_F

FPT, Southam Observer, I expect the real Conservative lead is about 7%, and Yougov and Survation are the outliers.

SouthamObserver

Sean_F said:

FPT, Southam Observer, I expect the real Conservative lead is about 7%, and Yougov and Survation are the outliers.

Yep, I agree. Labour will be delighted it is the YouGov poll that everyone is looking at.

kjh

Excellent article David, thank you.

SouthamObserver

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

My guess is that it is primarily younger, mainly middle class professionals who would previously have been Unionists.

Scott_xP

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

Foxy

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

moonshine

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

Charles

moonshine said:

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

People obsessing about the GFA rather than replicating what the GFA was designed to achieve is the problem

DavidL

David is right, we rarely think of NI and when we do it is in the context of a problem to be managed (solving it is beyond anyone) not as part of the UK. SNP supporters claim that Westminster "neglects" Scotland. It is showered with love and attention by comparison.

So, having got our attention on NI this sunny morning when coffee shops are open with fresh cakes....sorry, back to the matter in hand, what do we do?

I think go back to first principles. NI is a part of the UK and will remain so until the people of the Provence decide otherwise. That makes the NI protocol that Boris signed an abomination, it has to go. One of the larger gifts of the Union, and I again inevitably think of this in a Scottish context, is access to the SM of the UK and NI is being denied that gift. That is not acceptable.

I agree with David that means a rewriting of aspects of the GFA but actually not that much of it. The problem is not in the terms of the GFA, it is in the access to the EU that comes through a soft border. How do we reach such an agreement? Its not easy which is why Boris rather sold NI down the river with the NI protocol. It will require more flexibility by the EU than has been shown to date and it will need patient cooperation between the UK and Ireland. It should be a priority for the government but it probably won't be unless we can use NI as a tool to open up better reciprocal access to the EU SM for the whole of the UK.

The story the government wants to sell is Brexit delivered but the truth is that our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve over the coming decades and it will continue to take up a lot of our government's energy. The government won't want to talk about that but this is probably a good thing because open statements about NI rarely help. Getting rid of the protocol is nowhere near as economically important as financial services access but I very much hope that it is top of Lord Frost's in-tray. We let the people of NI down. We need to fix that and offer our apologies.

Now, did someone mention cake?

moonshine

https://nypost.com/2021/04/30/feds-cover-up-of-ufos-puts-us-at-risk/

US press getting louder on the Big Story. I have no doubt it’s getting them clicks but they could presumably have got clicks at any time by plugging this narrative. So why now.

Sean_F

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Jonathan

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

RochdalePioneers

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

squareroot2

Well written DH thank you

Mexicanpete

moonshine said:

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

The border in the Irish Sea/North Channel has already opened those wounds. The GFA always was a holding position, that worked just fine until Brexit.

Mr Herdson"s analysis is accurate in that Mrs May considered the implications and Mr Johnson did not, and it was her downfall.

On my initial reading I thought you were the first poster to blame the authors of the GFA for not predicting Brexit, but you don't, someone will be along with that nugget of genius later.

Foxy

moonshine said:

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

The GFA was a tacit admission by our government that the Republic should have a say in the governance of NI. It was after all put to a plebiscite in RoI as well as NI. Indeed that was why some Unionists opposed it. The GFA effectively allowed people in NI to be either Irish or British, or indeed both simultaneously. They still can be, but Brexit makes that economically difficult.

One option is for our government to abide by the NI protocol that it agreed and signed just 18 months ago as part of its "Oven Ready Deal". I appreciate that keeping his word is a novelty to the PM, but there is a first time for everything.

A border poll is inevitable at some point, and maybe now is the time, a century on from when the partition of Ireland happened.

squareroot2

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

Labour would know.. if you elect a left wing loon as leader, you get trashed at the Election

RochdalePioneers

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

HYUFD

Good article in the early stages, the Good Friday Agreement did ensure peace in Northern Ireland as it kept an open border with Ireland and GB and ensured powersharing between Unionist and Nationalist at Stormont.

However the idea a border poll would settle anything is absurd, it would exacerbate sectarianism and tensions even further. The Alliance have risen in the polls mainly because they are committed to non sectarianism and respecting the views of both Unionists and Nationalists ie not imposing a United Ireland on Unionists as much as not imposing direct rule from London again on Nationalists (indeed even the Irish PM has now said if there was eventually a United Ireland Dublin would keep the Northern Ireland Assembly for NI domestic policy as he knows imposing direct rule from Dublin would lead to as violent a response from loyalists and loyalist paramilitaries in Ireland as imposing direct rule from London did from the IRA in Northern Ireland and GB).
Plus as Unionist parties still win more votes combined than Nationalist parties there will be no border poll for the foreseeable future anyway.

While the US and EU demanded an open border in Ireland which has been kept, the border in the Irish Sea is continuing to anger loyalists and will lead a hardliner to replace Foster to step up resistance from the DUP to it. The only way to avoid it other than the EU backing down or the UK government ripping up the deal with the EU and shifting the border to Ireland to appease the DUP but leading to Nationalist resentment would be for closer alignment with the single market by GB and that probably would require a PM Starmer after the next election

SouthamObserver

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

HYUFD

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

The Alliance are basically the Northern Irish wing of the Liberal Democrats, indeed the 2 are sister parties, they are more pro EU and centrist than leftwing

DavidL

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

But the point of David's piece is that is not what we are getting. One of the major flaws in the GFA was it was built on the premise that the 2 divided communities would be set in aspic indefinitely. The Alliance party's manifesto has zero attraction to me as @Sean_F points out, but the increase in the proportion of NI who are willing to back a non sectarian party is a very positive thing and to be welcomed. We need a centre right alternative and that is not the DUP unless it can change with new leadership out of all recognition.

SouthamObserver

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

LostPassword

All the problems that have flown from the Brexit referendum have been because it should have been a referendum on English independence from the UK.

An English vote for independence from the UK in 2016 would have achieved everything the Brexit referendum achieved, but without the problems in NI because Unionism would be done, and without the uncertainty over Scotland's future - I'm opposed to a border dividing the island of Britain, but at least the question would have been settled.

Mexicanpete

RochdalePioneers said:

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

Absolutely true. And as to what happens next, rather than English sovereignty reigning supreme post Brexit, a Celtic sovereignty is running out of control. The only control Johnson has left is holding off the inevitable break up of the Union until after he relinquishes office. No wonder he is so antagonistic towards Cummings, the architect of this mess.

Foxy

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

The Republic has moved on a lot from it's inward looking Catholic conservatism of 50 years ago. It has become a country much more in tune with modern liberal ideas, on abortion, gay rights etc. There is still a Craggy Island element, but fading fast. I am sure that there is a significant element in NI that wants to modernise too, and get away from pre-enlightenment sectarianism too.

In short, the changes in the Republic, politically and economically over recent decades, mean that reunification is more appealing.

ydoethur

Scott_xP said:

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

HYUFD

LostPassword said:

All the problems that have flown from the Brexit referendum have been because it should have been a referendum on English independence from the UK.

An English vote for independence from the UK in 2016 would have achieved everything the Brexit referendum achieved, but without the problems in NI because Unionism would be done, and without the uncertainty over Scotland's future - I'm opposed to a border dividing the island of Britain, but at least the question would have been settled.

It wouldn't, loyalists in Antrim etc would declare UDI rather than accept direct rule from Dublin

ydoethur

Foxy said:

moonshine said:

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

The GFA was a tacit admission by our government that the Republic should have a say in the governance of NI. It was after all put to a plebiscite in RoI as well as NI. Indeed that was why some Unionists opposed it. The GFA effectively allowed people in NI to be either Irish or British, or indeed both simultaneously. They still can be, but Brexit makes that economically difficult.

One option is for our government to abide by the NI protocol that it agreed and signed just 18 months ago as part of its "Oven Ready Deal". I appreciate that keeping his word is a novelty to the PM, but there is a first time for everything.

A border poll is inevitable at some point, and maybe now is the time, a century on from when the partition of Ireland happened.

As I recall, the reason there was a referendum on it in Ireland was because it required a constitutional amendment, specifically the drastic emendation of Articles 2 and 3 that claimed sovereignty and authority over the whole island of Ireland. Not because it was something that gave the Irish ‘more power’ over Northern Ireland.

HYUFD

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

The Republic has moved on a lot from it's inward looking Catholic conservatism of 50 years ago. It has become a country much more in tune with modern liberal ideas, on abortion, gay rights etc. There is still a Craggy Island element, but fading fast. I am sure that there is a significant element in NI that wants to modernise too, and get away from pre-enlightenment sectarianism too.

In short, the changes in the Republic, politically and economically over recent decades, mean that reunification is more appealing.

The Alliance Party does not support a United Ireland, it supports powersharing in Northern Ireland between Unionist and Nationalist as the main way to keep peace in the province

Scott_xP

ydoethur said:

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

The implication is that leading the Brexit campaign was not a disaster.

It's a view...

DavidL

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

The Republic has moved on a lot from it's inward looking Catholic conservatism of 50 years ago. It has become a country much more in tune with modern liberal ideas, on abortion, gay rights etc. There is still a Craggy Island element, but fading fast. I am sure that there is a significant element in NI that wants to modernise too, and get away from pre-enlightenment sectarianism too.

In short, the changes in the Republic, politically and economically over recent decades, mean that reunification is more appealing.

That is undoubtedly true and one of the major flaws of the GFA is that it gave power to the extremes in the DUP and Sinn Fein wiping out the middle ground. In that respect it was about as useful as Blair's half arsed devolution package in Scotland. The problem at the moment is the other way around. Why would a modern country like Ireland want to have representation by a group of dinosaurs like the DUP in its government? They will look at Israel and the problems caused by the religious parties there and say, err, no.

The Alliance party is a step forward but we need politics in NI to evolve across the spectrum. The DUP are a major part of the problem rather than a part of the solution.

ydoethur

HYUFD said:

LostPassword said:

All the problems that have flown from the Brexit referendum have been because it should have been a referendum on English independence from the UK.

An English vote for independence from the UK in 2016 would have achieved everything the Brexit referendum achieved, but without the problems in NI because Unionism would be done, and without the uncertainty over Scotland's future - I'm opposed to a border dividing the island of Britain, but at least the question would have been settled.

It wouldn't, loyalists in Antrim etc would declare UDI rather than accept direct rule from Dublin

Oh lor.

Hyufd, we just don’t have enough tanks.

HYUFD

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

Absolutely true. And as to what happens next, rather than English sovereignty reigning supreme post Brexit, a Celtic sovereignty is running out of control. The only control Johnson has left is holding off the inevitable break up of the Union until after he relinquishes office. No wonder he is so antagonistic towards Cummings, the architect of this mess.

Celtic Wales voted for Brexit

Sean_F

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

The DUP have made themselves very unappealing in numerous ways, not least their corruption.

Foxy

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

I see that Hull's last distant water trawler has been made redundant by Brexit. The end of an era, even though it is owned by a Dutch-Icelandic Company.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/hull-vessel-kirkella-yorkshires-last-distant-water-trawler-scuppered-after-government-walks-away-from-talks-with-norway-3219797

Dura_Ace

HYUFD said:

LostPassword said:

All the problems that have flown from the Brexit referendum have been because it should have been a referendum on English independence from the UK.

An English vote for independence from the UK in 2016 would have achieved everything the Brexit referendum achieved, but without the problems in NI because Unionism would be done, and without the uncertainty over Scotland's future - I'm opposed to a border dividing the island of Britain, but at least the question would have been settled.

It wouldn't, loyalists in Antrim etc would declare UDI rather than accept direct rule from Dublin

Do you think they would be supported in this endeavour by the government of England & Wales?

Sean_F

DavidL said:

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

But the point of David's piece is that is not what we are getting. One of the major flaws in the GFA was it was built on the premise that the 2 divided communities would be set in aspic indefinitely. The Alliance party's manifesto has zero attraction to me as @Sean_F points out, but the increase in the proportion of NI who are willing to back a non sectarian party is a very positive thing and to be welcomed. We need a centre right alternative and that is not the DUP unless it can change with new leadership out of all recognition.

Under STV, Alliance would always get a vote from me (as would SDLP) because I’d want to keep Sinn Fein representation to a minimum.

SouthamObserver

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

Absolutely true. And as to what happens next, rather than English sovereignty reigning supreme post Brexit, a Celtic sovereignty is running out of control. The only control Johnson has left is holding off the inevitable break up of the Union until after he relinquishes office. No wonder he is so antagonistic towards Cummings, the architect of this mess.

Celtic Wales voted for Brexit

Wasn't it English Wales? ;-)

Fishing

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

He won, or helped win, the 2016 referendum against the odds, so I'd say there he was a success. But he's a much better political campaigner than government functionary - like Tony Blair, or Boris Johnson.

Sean_F

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

The Republic has moved on a lot from it's inward looking Catholic conservatism of 50 years ago. It has become a country much more in tune with modern liberal ideas, on abortion, gay rights etc. There is still a Craggy Island element, but fading fast. I am sure that there is a significant element in NI that wants to modernise too, and get away from pre-enlightenment sectarianism too.

In short, the changes in the Republic, politically and economically over recent decades, mean that reunification is more appealing.

My mother always said the best thing about being a Protestant in 1950’s Dublin was that the Catholic Church took no interest in you. You were damned, a heathen, so why would they bother?

Mexicanpete

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

Absolutely true. And as to what happens next, rather than English sovereignty reigning supreme post Brexit, a Celtic sovereignty is running out of control. The only control Johnson has left is holding off the inevitable break up of the Union until after he relinquishes office. No wonder he is so antagonistic towards Cummings, the architect of this mess.

Celtic Wales voted for Brexit

Little Englanders!

DavidL

Sean_F said:

DavidL said:

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

But the point of David's piece is that is not what we are getting. One of the major flaws in the GFA was it was built on the premise that the 2 divided communities would be set in aspic indefinitely. The Alliance party's manifesto has zero attraction to me as @Sean_F points out, but the increase in the proportion of NI who are willing to back a non sectarian party is a very positive thing and to be welcomed. We need a centre right alternative and that is not the DUP unless it can change with new leadership out of all recognition.

Under STV, Alliance would always get a vote from me (as would SDLP) because I’d want to keep Sinn Fein representation to a minimum.

Me too but the problem is the Unionist community where the lunatics are the asylum. NI desperately needs a modern, non sectarian centre right party. It is a disappointment that the Conservative's efforts there have been so half hearted and totally unsuccessful. The truth is that the GFA was a disaster leaving a bunch of psychopaths in charge on the condition that they don't kill each other. We and NI need to move on from it.

ydoethur

Fishing said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

He won, or helped win, the 2016 referendum against the odds, so I'd say there he was a success. But he's a much better political campaigner than government functionary - like Tony Blair, or Boris Johnson.

Well, yes, but at the cost at some rather longer term problems.

I suppose though that wasn’t a *complete* disaster given he got what he wanted.

SouthamObserver

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

The DUP have made themselves very unappealing in numerous ways, not least their corruption.

So if you are not comfortable with Protestant fundamentalism laced with corruption or Irish nationalism/republicanism, who do you vote for in Northern Ireland? It's the Alliance or the Ulster Unionists, isn't it?

HYUFD

Dura_Ace said:

HYUFD said:

LostPassword said:

All the problems that have flown from the Brexit referendum have been because it should have been a referendum on English independence from the UK.

An English vote for independence from the UK in 2016 would have achieved everything the Brexit referendum achieved, but without the problems in NI because Unionism would be done, and without the uncertainty over Scotland's future - I'm opposed to a border dividing the island of Britain, but at least the question would have been settled.

It wouldn't, loyalists in Antrim etc would declare UDI rather than accept direct rule from Dublin

Do you think they would be supported in this endeavour by the government of England & Wales?

They would be supported by the Brexiteer Tory right certainly whether in government or not

Nemtynakht

moonshine said:

Correct diagnosis, wrong prescription. A border poll would open old wounds, you only have to look at the Brexit ref on a much more esoteric issue.

The GFA was ostensibly a big pile of fudge to buy time until demographic trends inevitably lead to reunification. It needs another big dollop of fudge to put everyone in a sugar coma until the same point in time.

Absolutely. I think the idea in the NI protocol that NI Government can routinely reject the current deal is a good one but it is uneven. If a more generous deal was introduced, but all sides could routinely reject it. So if the EU are worried that quasi EU status erodes their EU single market or standards, or if GB sees the NI route as being key to cross border crime or illegal immigration, or if NI don't feel the other 2 are respecting the agreement. At the moment the EU sees itself seperate from Ireland and therefore not responsible for any mutual collapse - Brexit caused this and because they didn't want it they can't accept it. Only when they do will a solution be found.

Mexicanpete

ydoethur said:

Fishing said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

He won, or helped win, the 2016 referendum against the odds, so I'd say there he was a success. But he's a much better political campaigner than government functionary - like Tony Blair, or Boris Johnson.

Well, yes, but at the cost at some rather longer term problems.

I suppose though that wasn’t a *complete* disaster given he got what he wanted.

I am amazed at the ruthless retaliation heaped on Cummings by the Daily Borisgraph. Fortunate for Cummings then, that their hero isn't a similarly vindictive b******. And by the way where was Johnson when Cummings was creating this chaos in NI and elsewhere? With brush in hand decorating his apartment perhaps.

SouthamObserver

DavidL said:

Sean_F said:

DavidL said:

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

But the point of David's piece is that is not what we are getting. One of the major flaws in the GFA was it was built on the premise that the 2 divided communities would be set in aspic indefinitely. The Alliance party's manifesto has zero attraction to me as @Sean_F points out, but the increase in the proportion of NI who are willing to back a non sectarian party is a very positive thing and to be welcomed. We need a centre right alternative and that is not the DUP unless it can change with new leadership out of all recognition.

Under STV, Alliance would always get a vote from me (as would SDLP) because I’d want to keep Sinn Fein representation to a minimum.

Me too but the problem is the Unionist community where the lunatics are the asylum. NI desperately needs a modern, non sectarian centre right party. It is a disappointment that the Conservative's efforts there have been so half hearted and totally unsuccessful. The truth is that the GFA was a disaster leaving a bunch of psychopaths in charge on the condition that they don't kill each other. We and NI need to move on from it.

Given what preceded it, describing the GFA as a disaster is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

LostPassword

2017 assembly election
Unionist 43.6%
Nationalist 39.8%
Other 16.6%

2017 general election
Unionist 49.2%
Nationalist 41.1%
Other 9.7%

2019 general election
Unionist 43.3%
Nationalist 38.9%
Other 17.8%

Latest assembly opinion poll
Unionist 41%
Nationalist 37%
Other 22%

The political crisis in Unionism is talked about more than the decline in the Nationalist vote share. I think the one thing a border poll would do now would be to drive voters back into the sectarian silos. I think that would be counterproductive.

FF43

The truth is, Brexit is incompatible with the United Kingdom, as was. Particularly the sort of Brexit pursued by Johnson. The Northern Ireland Protocol is the miserable consequence of that fact.

I suspect the Protocol may be surprising durable. No-one at all likes it, but it is not as bad as a realistic alternative for most people having to deal with the fallout.

Alanbrooke

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

The DUP have made themselves very unappealing in numerous ways, not least their corruption.

So if you are not comfortable with Protestant fundamentalism laced with corruption or Irish nationalism/republicanism, who do you vote for in Northern Ireland? It's the Alliance or the Ulster Unionists, isn't it?

Wot no Labour candidates ?

DavidL

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

Sean_F said:

DavidL said:

Jonathan said:

If you stoke nationalism, don’t be surprised if you get nationalism.

But the point of David's piece is that is not what we are getting. One of the major flaws in the GFA was it was built on the premise that the 2 divided communities would be set in aspic indefinitely. The Alliance party's manifesto has zero attraction to me as @Sean_F points out, but the increase in the proportion of NI who are willing to back a non sectarian party is a very positive thing and to be welcomed. We need a centre right alternative and that is not the DUP unless it can change with new leadership out of all recognition.

Under STV, Alliance would always get a vote from me (as would SDLP) because I’d want to keep Sinn Fein representation to a minimum.

Me too but the problem is the Unionist community where the lunatics are the asylum. NI desperately needs a modern, non sectarian centre right party. It is a disappointment that the Conservative's efforts there have been so half hearted and totally unsuccessful. The truth is that the GFA was a disaster leaving a bunch of psychopaths in charge on the condition that they don't kill each other. We and NI need to move on from it.

Given what preceded it, describing the GFA as a disaster is a bit of a stretch, IMO.

It achieved its objective of giving the IRA a graceful way to stop a war that it had been losing for a long time and of course the end of the killing (in the main) was a good thing. It was right that Ireland was given some influence and the all Ireland economy was encouraged.

But it positively encouraged both parts of the sectarian divide to vote for those who were at the extremes. The DUP wiped out the rather more rational UUP and allowed SInn Fein to wipe out the SDLP. This was, in 1066 terms, not a good thing.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

Fishing

ydoethur said:

Fishing said:

ydoethur said:

Scott_xP said:

Dominic Cummings isn’t a genius – he was a disaster in No 10. Correct analysis by @CamillaTominey https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/cummings-isnt-genius-disaster-no-10/ https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1388390432753717253/photo/1

That’s an odd way of putting it.

It implies that there was a role he held somewhere that wasn’t a complete disaster.

He won, or helped win, the 2016 referendum against the odds, so I'd say there he was a success. But he's a much better political campaigner than government functionary - like Tony Blair, or Boris Johnson.

Well, yes, but at the cost at some rather longer term problems.

I suppose though that wasn’t a *complete* disaster given he got what he wanted.

You have to judge a man's performance in a job against the objectives of that job.

squareroot2

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

SouthamObserver

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Of course. And most people will credit him and the Tories, too. That's the way it works.

kinabalu

Thanks for interesting Header. I feel the same way about the reunification of Ireland as about independence for Scotland. Both are close to certain as ultimate outcomes, but that's the easy bit. The timing is what's difficult to predict. Will either or both happen in, say, this decade? I'd say probably not. Inertia is one of the strongest forces there is, especially when it squats in opposition to traumatic and messy change. "Muddle on" is always a big contender and always takes a lot of beating.

nico679

The last thing NI needs is a border poll. One can only imagine the fallout of a very close vote . The DUP do though deserve to be punished at the assembly elections for their support for Brexit and then backing a hard Brexit , clearly they wanted a hard border between NI and Ireland and it all blew up in their face when they decided to trust the pathological liar in no 10.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

Big_G_NorthWales

Good morning

I found David's piece very interesting as I do not have a good knowledge of NI

I recently read that the Irish government, in the event of a unification poll, would want to retain NI much as it is with devolved powers guaranteed by a joint Irish-UK Council

I expect we all want a peaceful answer for NI and maybe, as has been said, it needs ladles of 'fudge'

Philip_Thompson

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

Fishing

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Knowing when to delegate is perhaps the greatest of all leadership skills.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.

algarkirk

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

A clue: I am centre right, pro Brexit and unwoke. If I had a vote in NI I would be in queue first to vote for a party which was not the voice of a pseudo religious and potentially violent tribe. My disagreements with it would be those of civilised political discourse and not the stuff of certain other NI parties. I can live with any amount of genuine democracy, whether I like the policies or not.

Foxy

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

A good article David. I disagree with the headline as the body of the piece points out: it was not departure from the EU that causes the problem, rather it is departure from the EEA that causes the problem.

The first one is Brexit. The second one is what we chose to do after Brexit

Absolutely true. And as to what happens next, rather than English sovereignty reigning supreme post Brexit, a Celtic sovereignty is running out of control. The only control Johnson has left is holding off the inevitable break up of the Union until after he relinquishes office. No wonder he is so antagonistic towards Cummings, the architect of this mess.

Celtic Wales voted for Brexit

Wasn't it English Wales? ;-)

Of course, "England" is just occupied Wales...

kjh

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

Wait until tomorrow!

rottenborough

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

Great news.

My experience is the side effects start 24 hours after the dose.

Taz

Morning one and all. Cold pizza for breakfast is a thing of joy.

squareroot2

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Knowing when to delegate is perhaps the greatest of all leadership skills.

Indeed it is. I have delegated all my life.. its been expensive mind.. window cleaner grass cutter gardener handyman and all those other jobs don't come cheap. My wife is able to accomplish these and many other tasks......🤣🤣🤣🤣😍

rottenborough

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I found David's piece very interesting as I do not have a good knowledge of NI

I recently read that the Irish government, in the event of a unification poll, would want to retain NI much as it is with devolved powers guaranteed by a joint Irish-UK Council

I expect we all want a peaceful answer for NI and maybe, as has been said, it needs ladles of 'fudge'

The Unionist community are extremely keen to stay in the union as part of UK.

But what if the union doesn't really exist anymore, which could be soon? Scotland independent.

Many ulster people are of Scots descendent.

Is it a union with England they really want to remain in?

FrankBooth

The problem with island nations is an inability to understand land borders. To us the border is the sea.

kinabalu

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/labour-go-for-jugular-tories-rank-elitism

Owen's take on Tory sleaze. His thrust is that Labour risk boring people by focusing on standards in public life and need to inject a fizzy class element - "One rule for them and their rich mates. Another for everyone else."

RochdalePioneers

FF43 said:

The truth is, Brexit is incompatible with the United Kingdom, as was. Particularly the sort of Brexit pursued by Johnson. The Northern Ireland Protocol is the miserable consequence of that fact.

I suspect the Protocol may be surprising durable. No-one at all likes it, but it is not as bad as a realistic alternative for most people having to deal with the fallout.

"Brexit" is leaving the European Union. That is fine. It is what we did after we left the EU that is the big problem. As "hey lets leave the EEA as well, we'll gain loads of trade" descends into shit, I'm going to keep pulling the argument all the way back to basics.

We didn't have to leave the EEA. The referendum didn't demand that. Shutting down whole industries such as fishing was a political choice - all the more ironic that the Downing Street Dipshits honestly believed that in cutting ourselves off from our main markets we would gain trade and opportunities. Mmmmmmm.

SouthamObserver

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.

Unification is around 20 years away if that polling you linked to is right, so Joe is very unlikely to live to see it. We might, though, if we are lucky.

Fishing

squareroot2 said:

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Knowing when to delegate is perhaps the greatest of all leadership skills.

Indeed it is. I have delegated all my life.. its been expensive mind.. window cleaner grass cutter gardener handyman and all those other jobs don't come cheap. My wife is able to accomplish these and many other tasks......🤣🤣🤣🤣😍

Whereas I on the other hand repeatedly try to do DIY tasks far above my skill level. I know which of us would make the better Prime Minister.

Alistair

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

I had no side effects right up until I went to bed at which point I started shivering uncontrollably all night and felt nauseous. Was a total wreck the next day.

MarqueeMark

kinabalu said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/labour-go-for-jugular-tories-rank-elitism

Owen's take on Tory sleaze. His thrust is that Labour risk boring people by focusing on standards in public life and need to inject a fizzy class element - "One rule for them and their rich mates. Another for everyone else."

These days, Labour is just as much the party of "rich mates" though.

Razedabode

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.

Unification is around 20 years away if that polling you linked to is right, so Joe is very unlikely to live to see it. We might, though, if we are lucky.

I’d be hard pressed to imagine what the state of the world will be like in 20 years time - as fair as I’m concerned, Brexit could have been considered a roaring success (unlikely, but I would never have imagined living through a pandemic...)

Dura_Ace

RochdalePioneers said:

FF43 said:

The truth is, Brexit is incompatible with the United Kingdom, as was. Particularly the sort of Brexit pursued by Johnson. The Northern Ireland Protocol is the miserable consequence of that fact.

I suspect the Protocol may be surprising durable. No-one at all likes it, but it is not as bad as a realistic alternative for most people having to deal with the fallout.

"Brexit" is leaving the European Union. That is fine. It is what we did after we left the EU that is the big problem. As "hey lets leave the EEA as well, we'll gain loads of trade" descends into shit, I'm going to keep pulling the argument all the way back to basics.

We didn't have to leave the EEA. The referendum didn't demand that. Shutting down whole industries such as fishing was a political choice - all the more ironic that the Downing Street Dipshits honestly believed that in cutting ourselves off from our main markets we would gain trade and opportunities. Mmmmmmm.

You're going to cop it once Thommo has booted up and completed his initiation sequence.

Foxy

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

The DUP have made themselves very unappealing in numerous ways, not least their corruption.

So if you are not comfortable with Protestant fundamentalism laced with corruption or Irish nationalism/republicanism, who do you vote for in Northern Ireland? It's the Alliance or the Ulster Unionists, isn't it?

Wot no Labour candidates ?

Isn't the SDLP Labour's sister party?

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.

Unification is around 20 years away if that polling you linked to is right, so Joe is very unlikely to live to see it. We might, though, if we are lucky.

Well Im 60 this summer and all my life Ive been told its 10 years to an all island state and it hasnt happened yet. And until someone cracks the economics I still cant see it happening more so since this is a time when all governments has blown the budget and have no largesse to throw around.

Your premise is based on Northerners voting for a 25+% cut in their standard of living and the RoI voting to bankrupt itself. I cant see that happening personally.

rottenborough

In depth: Andy Street's success shows how quickly the shift in British politics has occurred

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/30/depth-andy-streets-success-shows-quickly-shift-british-politics/

Carnyx

Alistair said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

I had no side effects right up until I went to bed at which point I started shivering uncontrollably all night and felt nauseous. Was a total wreck the next day.

Similar here, but milder. The timing is spot on. (Had my anti-pox about 11 am FWIW.)

NickPalmer

Foxy said:

Isn't the SDLP Labour's sister party?

Yes.

kjh

Alistair said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

I had no side effects right up until I went to bed at which point I started shivering uncontrollably all night and felt nauseous. Was a total wreck the next day.

Funny how different it is for different people. It was the same for a friend of mine, for both the 1st and 2nd jab. Really quite unwell.

In my case I had very very, very mild flu symptoms (but no headache) the next day. The following day it felt like someone had really punched my arm, but really no big deal.

In my wife's case she had a splitting headache the following day but nothing else.

Carnyx

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Knowing when to delegate is perhaps the greatest of all leadership skills.

Indeed it is. I have delegated all my life.. its been expensive mind.. window cleaner grass cutter gardener handyman and all those other jobs don't come cheap. My wife is able to accomplish these and many other tasks......🤣🤣🤣🤣😍

Whereas I on the other hand repeatedly try to do DIY tasks far above my skill level. I know which of us would make the better Prime Minister.

I don'tr know. Mr Johnson can paint cardboard boxes into buses when he needs an internet meme to swamp the Boris Bus on google.

Northern_Al

kinabalu said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/labour-go-for-jugular-tories-rank-elitism

Owen's take on Tory sleaze. His thrust is that Labour risk boring people by focusing on standards in public life and need to inject a fizzy class element - "One rule for them and their rich mates. Another for everyone else."

Yep. Let Angela Rayner loose all over the airwaves. That line would be better coming from her than from Starmer.

Alanbrooke

Foxy said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Foxy said:

Sean_F said:

I wonder what's driving the growth in support for Alliance. I must say, I can think of almost nothing on which I would find myself in agreement with that party, being left wing, fervently pro-EU, and very woke.

Perhaps those things are quite popular there?

After all, what else is the choice? Sectarian hard left and hard right parties in SF, DUP and TUV, and fairly soft left Nationalism in the SDLP.?

If you want a non-sectarian party in tune with the modern world, then it is hard to see past the Alliance Party.

Obviously, there's a constituency that such things appeal to, and not a lot of choice on offer. But, they're essentially, the equivalent of the left wing of the Liberal Democrats/Greens in terms of English politics. I could see the appeal in a constituency like South Belfast, but not so much in a place like North Down.

Look at the alternatives. The next leader of the DUP is set to be someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old.

The DUP have made themselves very unappealing in numerous ways, not least their corruption.

So if you are not comfortable with Protestant fundamentalism laced with corruption or Irish nationalism/republicanism, who do you vote for in Northern Ireland? It's the Alliance or the Ulster Unionists, isn't it?

Wot no Labour candidates ?

Isn't the SDLP Labour's sister party?

No.

Labour has a NI organisation after local activists sued the party for discrimination by not letting them organise ( just your usual Labour casusal bigotry ).

Labour refused at the Last GE to let them field candidates. I believe it's all to do with Labour's commitment to offering ordinary working people a non sectarian alternative cough cough

https://www.labourpartyni.org/news/

Fishing

kinabalu said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/labour-go-for-jugular-tories-rank-elitism

Owen's take on Tory sleaze. His thrust is that Labour risk boring people by focusing on standards in public life and need to inject a fizzy class element - "One rule for them and their rich mates. Another for everyone else."

I forget, did Owen end up supporting Corbyn or not in the end? ISTR he opposed him up to the 2017 election, when Corbyn did alright, then supported him until the 2019 election, which he lost disastrously. When Owen says something, a wise man does the opposite, at least when it comes to winning over Middle England.

The history of Labour since Blair is the party trying to get floating voters fired up about inequality, and the floating voters just not being that interested. Oh, that, and four successive election defeats.

Sandpit

Philip_Thompson said:

Got the Oxford vaccine as a first dose. 💉💪

Incredibly fast moving like a military operation. This GP surgery is doing a thousand people today, went in and didn't stop moving until had to wait here for ten minutes as I'm driving.

No side effects. Where can I go now to buy a Zune?

Awesome, sounds really well organised. The whole process should be much easier to organise, now that we are down to the young and able-bodied.

squareroot2

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

Fishing said:

squareroot2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic but related: let's all praise Liz Truss for the brilliant deal she has signed with the North Sea EEA countries. Fishing communities like here in Aberdeenshire are delighted that they will be able to catch all the fish they were promised...

Or in reality, what an utter farce. So much for the "Truss and the UK are signing brilliant new trade deals!" gift written by the remaining PB Johnsonites. Pretty much the only thing that their version of Brexit has done is delivered the polar opposite of what was promised.

Let's quit the CFP so we can regain sovereignty over our waters! Yay! Except that in practice they have willfully and with total ignorance tied up and shut down the fishing industry.

"But we have a majority of 80 and we're ahead in the polls so who cares" say certain posters. Yes, who cares about things that are actually good for the country, what a ludicrous argument to make...

Every day we should thank the Lord that ministers have had so little to do with the vaccine roll-out. Imagine if they had actually been in charge of implementing it!

It won't stop Boris taking the plaudits...

Knowing when to delegate is perhaps the greatest of all leadership skills.

Indeed it is. I have delegated all my life.. its been expensive mind.. window cleaner grass cutter gardener handyman and all those other jobs don't come cheap. My wife is able to accomplish these and many other tasks......🤣🤣🤣🤣😍

Whereas I on the other hand repeatedly try to do DIY tasks far above my skill level. I know which of us would make the better Prime Minister.

I rarely attempt them. We employ people to do most things. It is the way the world works. If we could all do everything, white van man would not exist.

Big_G_NorthWales

rottenborough said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I found David's piece very interesting as I do not have a good knowledge of NI

I recently read that the Irish government, in the event of a unification poll, would want to retain NI much as it is with devolved powers guaranteed by a joint Irish-UK Council

I expect we all want a peaceful answer for NI and maybe, as has been said, it needs ladles of 'fudge'

The Unionist community are extremely keen to stay in the union as part of UK.

But what if the union doesn't really exist anymore, which could be soon? Scotland independent.

Many ulster people are of Scots descendent.

Is it a union with England they really want to remain in?

A compromise as suggested in the report I read seems very sensible but when it comes to NI the word seems inappropriate

And I have doubts Scotland will be independent anytime soon

Big_G_NorthWales

Razedabode said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

On topic

Lots of interesting polling re Ireland in this centeary poll ( 100 years since partition )

South supports a UI but only 1 in 5 is prepared to pay for it. Majority think Ireland will need to change its flag and emblems.

Northerners think they will be worse off financially

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/centenaries/centenarypoll/majority-favour-a-united-ireland-but-just-22pc-would-pay-for-it-40375875.html

The age gap in the North is very striking.

America will pay.

America is going to chip in $14bm dollars a year ? Firstly why inst it the EUs responsibility and secondly Joe says a lot but the Paddies are screaming he's fking Ireland with his tax reforms. Oh and at present hes flying to the UK but not stopping off to admire the 40 shades of green.

As I ve said to you before Irish America is dying. Theres no flow of immigration across the Atlantic to make it worth chasing votes all the hypenated Americans worth chasing are Latino or Asian and the Dems will soon drop the Irish and send them off to MAGA land.

The US pays a shedload more a year to keep Israel safe. And the Jewish vote in the US is far, far smaller than the Irish-American one. Being the US President with the beaming face standing behind the Irish and British leaders as the articles of unification are signed will carry huge political dividends.

:Last time I looked Israel was doing a lot of Americas work in the ME. Ireland usually takes a neutral or anti US posture in most things. Joe wont be signing anything in the near future, nobody wants to pay the bills.

Unification is around 20 years away if that polling you linked to is right, so Joe is very unlikely to live to see it. We might, though, if we are lucky.

I’d be hard pressed to imagine what the state of the world will be like in 20 years time - as fair as I’m concerned, Brexit could have been considered a roaring success (unlikely, but I would never have imagined living through a pandemic...)

I will be delighted to be on the planet in 20 years to be fair