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If it looks like an outlier, walks like an outlier, and talks like an outlier then it probably is an

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  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Oh. Yet again, the fog of war.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We have a potentially dangerous variant from India, but I don't think India has been put on the red list yet?

    Looking grim:

    BREAKING: India reports 233,757 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase so far, and a record 1,338 new deaths

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1383127597236764676?s=19
    As I said a few days ago, India has the potential to be the worst Covid story of all (it was likewise the worst in Spanish flu)

    If this variant evades the vaccines, and if it can reinfect, then we are fucked. These are big ifs. But it is possible. Our government is, apparently, incapable of closing our borders, so it will come here in big waves (it is here already, in small numbers, of course)

    Well done, Boris. Well done
    Has anyone published the criteria for 'red listing' a country yet? It seems to be a rather arcane process. If there were a set of criteria it would be easier to hold politicians to account for not doing it.
    The red list should be: the entire world.

    Tough shit if you get stuck on the wrong side of the barrier. We’re an island and we’re making the most of that. NZ, OZ and Taiwan show that this WORKS
    Yes. There's something a little follow-the-money-esque about the whole thing isn't there? The Government just don't seem to want aviation to take a hit. Likewise commuting and London. Perhaps it relates to large scale projects like HS2 and Runway 3 that are considered too big to fail.
    It's also a little more complex than that.

    We have truckers coming in, and the other islands don't. Completely sealing the borders is therefore much harder for us than for them. I mean, we could do it, but there would be an economic impact for us that the other islands simply don't get.

    But here's the other thing. Israel is a little bit ahead of us, and has opened the borders and removed restrictons and...

    They're doing fine. All the evidence - so far - is that vaccines are incredibly effective at preventing both serious disease and transmission of the virus.

    Truckers is one thing.

    People flying in from Africa or Peru or India is another.
    Exactly. Stop what can be stopped. Allow only absolutely essential freight and so on.

    This is what Starmer needs to be smashing the government on every single day.

    "The government has undoubtedly done a wonderful job with procuring vaccines for the country and the NHS has duly given them out to 33m people, why then is the government risking this great work by keeping the border open [list examples of imported variants]."

    Just ask Boris the same fucking question six times until he answers, do it every fucking week and every single time there's a new imported variant get a boost in the polls and also get the huge "I fucking told you, you lying cunt" moment. He'd have had three of these already vs none at the moment.
    Starmer won’t. Because he’s pathetically Woke. Closing the borders is too Farageist. Heavens, they might have to do something about the illegal immigrants in the Channel, as well. How do you address that and also keep the Guardian happy??

    Labour is too Woke, the Tories too Stupid. So the borders stay open
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    That is jolly good news
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492
    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Phew.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,547
    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I’ve travelled all over the world but many of my best holidays have been in England. I just don’t understand the implication that it’s some sort of second-class holiday.

    (I’m not convinced it’s cheaper either - good accommodation and food here is pricey: what I save on fly-drive I seem to sink back in to inns and taverns)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,547
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    Yes, it seems stupid not to.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    One reads that Italy, having effectively dumped its four-tier regional Covid restrictions in March, when it went back into a national lockdown, is to start bringing them back again from April 26th. Lower prevalence areas are to be placed back into lower tiers.

    According to Our World in Data, Italy has only vaccinated about a third as many people per capita as the UK, and its case rate is ten times as high as ours and appears to have levelled off.

    If the UK's lengthy shutdown of the hospitality sector was excessive then we may get an indication of this from Italy's progress. Outdoor service at bars and restaurants is to be restored in the lower risk areas (along with limited audiences at cinemas and theatres.)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,618
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    GB or UK?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,724

    Three years is a long time in politics, a very long time. Nonetheless, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that it's not long enough for Sir Keir to turn things round. He's dull as ditchwater, he's an awful speaker, he doesn't seem to have any coherent position on anything, and Labour is starting from a very bad position electorally, organisationally, and in terms of public perception following the Corbyn years.

    Even all that might not be irretrievable if it weren't for the fact that his shadow cabinet is even worse. At least one can envisage Starmer as PM without difficulty, but even Labour party members don't seem to think much of the Shadow Chancellor, Shadow Health Sec or Shadow Home Sec, if indeed they've noticed them at all.

    It's a hell of a lot to turn round, and as things stand he seems to be losing ground, not gaining it.

    For someone with an astute political sixth sense, and with such an analytical track record as yourself, I am surprised you aren't considering how volatlle or even soft three or four percent of the Tory vote has been over the last year. That could make a big difference, come the next election.

    As it stands today, it looks like a comfortable Johnsonian Conservatives win, but if Johnson has another mare of a few months, as he his from late spring to December last year, and it occurs between now and the next election he could be in a spot of bother. Remember too, since mid December and the vaccine roll out, the news agenda until this week was wholly positive to the Johnson cause. That has changed this week and the news has been more Boris neutral (which is why I am more surprised by the YouGov than the Survation). I say Boris neutral as I am convinced the Cameron saga is associated with the Blair era rather than the Johnson era. If the Yougov is true it might be a case of the captives thanking their captors for their release this week.

    And then there is the economy to consider. Will it play out as a three year post Brexit and post pandemic spending boom, as Philip Thompson asserts or will it be somewhat less impressive?

    Starmer is no Blair, but neither is he an IDS or a Corbyn. Maybe he is Michael Howard, and the time is not quite right, but as I keep saying, Starmer doesn't scare the horses, and Governments lose elections. Besides which, after five years of Johnson, we might decide we want a Prime Minister who is somewhat less erratic.
    I don't disagree with most of that, and I do agree that the most likely thing is that the current government (which is, after all, IMO the worst since WWII) will become very unpopular over the next couple of years.

    But that's not enough. The mantra that it is governments that lose elections is only half-true in my view. Yes, government unpopularity is a necessary condition for a change of regime, but it's not a sufficient condition: the opposition also needs to be a credible alternative. Think 1992 or 2005.

    In addition, there's the Scotland millstone hanging around Starmer's neck, making the task even harder than it was for his predecessors.
    My view is that Sir Keir’s value-add is to detoxify the party following the Corbyn years. Labour will need a rapid-fire switch to a telegenic female leader to win. This switch should be made close to the general election. Novelty can work, if you have a fairly benign party in place to back it up.

    Rosena Allin-Khan is the one to watch.
    If only Rosena was MP for Barnsley she would be perfect.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Charles said:

    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I stay in my own home when I go to California. Does that make it a staycation?
    Presumably you also stay in your own home when you visit St Barts, Cassis or Capri?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    edited April 2021

    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I’ve travelled all over the world but many of my best holidays have been in England. I just don’t understand the implication that it’s some sort of second-class holiday.

    (I’m not convinced it’s cheaper either - good accommodation and food here is pricey: what I save on fly-drive I seem to sink back in to inns and taverns)
    Er, most people accept that a holiday in Britain is MORE expensive than, say, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal. Because it is

    And for that you often get somewhat inferior accommodation with definitely inferior weather. That’s why it is seen as an inferior holiday

    It’s not because Britain is less beautiful. It is a ravishingly beautiful country, in places, and, if you don’t mind forking out, it has sublime accommodation. And the food is vastly improved and often more varied than abroad.

    But it is pricier, colder, and rainier. Them’s the facts
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319

    Three years is a long time in politics, a very long time. Nonetheless, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that it's not long enough for Sir Keir to turn things round. He's dull as ditchwater, he's an awful speaker, he doesn't seem to have any coherent position on anything, and Labour is starting from a very bad position electorally, organisationally, and in terms of public perception following the Corbyn years.

    Even all that might not be irretrievable if it weren't for the fact that his shadow cabinet is even worse. At least one can envisage Starmer as PM without difficulty, but even Labour party members don't seem to think much of the Shadow Chancellor, Shadow Health Sec or Shadow Home Sec, if indeed they've noticed them at all.

    It's a hell of a lot to turn round, and as things stand he seems to be losing ground, not gaining it.

    For someone with an astute political sixth sense, and with such an analytical track record as yourself, I am surprised you aren't considering how volatlle or even soft three or four percent of the Tory vote has been over the last year. That could make a big difference, come the next election.

    As it stands today, it looks like a comfortable Johnsonian Conservatives win, but if Johnson has another mare of a few months, as he his from late spring to December last year, and it occurs between now and the next election he could be in a spot of bother. Remember too, since mid December and the vaccine roll out, the news agenda until this week was wholly positive to the Johnson cause. That has changed this week and the news has been more Boris neutral (which is why I am more surprised by the YouGov than the Survation). I say Boris neutral as I am convinced the Cameron saga is associated with the Blair era rather than the Johnson era. If the Yougov is true it might be a case of the captives thanking their captors for their release this week.

    And then there is the economy to consider. Will it play out as a three year post Brexit and post pandemic spending boom, as Philip Thompson asserts or will it be somewhat less impressive?

    Starmer is no Blair, but neither is he an IDS or a Corbyn. Maybe he is Michael Howard, and the time is not quite right, but as I keep saying, Starmer doesn't scare the horses, and Governments lose elections. Besides which, after five years of Johnson, we might decide we want a Prime Minister who is somewhat less erratic.
    I don't disagree with most of that, and I do agree that the most likely thing is that the current government (which is, after all, IMO the worst since WWII) will become very unpopular over the next couple of years.

    But that's not enough. The mantra that it is governments that lose elections is only half-true in my view. Yes, government unpopularity is a necessary condition for a change of regime, but it's not a sufficient condition: the opposition also needs to be a credible alternative. Think 1992 or 2005.

    In addition, there's the Scotland millstone hanging around Starmer's neck, making the task even harder than it was for his predecessors.
    My view is that Sir Keir’s value-add is to detoxify the party following the Corbyn years. Labour will need a rapid-fire switch to a telegenic female leader to win. This switch should be made close to the general election. Novelty can work, if you have a fairly benign party in place to back it up.

    Rosena Allin-Khan is the one to watch.
    If only Rosena was MP for Barnsley she would be perfect.
    Agreed, but I’m not convinced that her being MP for Tooting should rule her out. Good back story and Tooting isn’t exactly posh!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,683
    Good night. Busy day tommorow,

    One reads that Italy, having effectively dumped its four-tier regional Covid restrictions in March, when it went back into a national lockdown, is to start bringing them back again from April 26th. Lower prevalence areas are to be placed back into lower tiers.

    According to Our World in Data, Italy has only vaccinated about a third as many people per capita as the UK, and its case rate is ten times as high as ours and appears to have levelled off.

    If the UK's lengthy shutdown of the hospitality sector was excessive then we may get an indication of this from Italy's progress. Outdoor service at bars and restaurants is to be restored in the lower risk areas (along with limited audiences at cinemas and theatres.)

    To be fair, out door dining in Rome looks more pleasant than Leicester at the moment.

    The frost seems to have clobbered France too. It may be a very poor year for them. Covid and no wine.

    https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1382574674337538049?s=19
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    Jonathan said:



    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    GB or UK?
    GB

    Sorry, Ireland and NI
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    That is jolly good news
    Even better news given the likely age and immune profile of the residents.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,618
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:



    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    GB or UK?
    GB

    Sorry, Ireland and NI
    I can see that going down like a bucket of cold sick.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    Yes, it seems stupid not to.
    Israel is our idol, apparently. And their vax program is certainly working, it seems.

    Israel also has completely sealed borders (with a few rare exceptions for Israeli citizens). Plus a rigorous quarantine system

    They don’t intend to ease anything until late May

    Why can’t we just copy them?

    Head::desk
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I’ve travelled all over the world but many of my best holidays have been in England. I just don’t understand the implication that it’s some sort of second-class holiday.

    (I’m not convinced it’s cheaper either - good accommodation and food here is pricey: what I save on fly-drive I seem to sink back in to inns and taverns)
    Er, most people accept that a holiday in Britain is MORE expensive than, say, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal. Because it is

    And for that you often get somewhat inferior accommodation with definitely inferior weather. That’s why it is seen as an inferior holiday

    It’s not because Britain is less beautiful. It is a ravishingly beautiful country, in places, and, if you don’t mind forking out, it has sublime accommodation. And the food is vastly improved and often more varied than abroad.

    But it is pricier, colder, and rainier. Them’s the facts
    Yes fair enough. I think what I was trying to say was that holidays in England are great if you are prepared to pay for them. That all said, holidays in France and Italy (where we tend to go) are expensive too: it’s only really the countries you mention which are notably cheaper.

    You make a fair point about budget/bang for your buck.
  • lloydylloydy Posts: 36
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We have a potentially dangerous variant from India, but I don't think India has been put on the red list yet?

    Looking grim:

    BREAKING: India reports 233,757 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase so far, and a record 1,338 new deaths

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1383127597236764676?s=19
    To put this into perspective though, 233,757 scaled for population is the equivalent of 11,405 cases in the UK, and 1,338 deaths is like 65 deaths. It's such a huge country. And the anecdotal reports of "most households having someone" with Covid this week suggest to me some places may already be getting close to saturation.

    Of course variants don't care about per capita figures, they just like lots and lots of infections so India like Brazil is an ideal variant breeding ground, but there's a long way to go before India gets even close to the levels of infection and death of most of Western Europe. And they're the world's biggest vaccine producer.

    The Latin American story is the most tragic. Just month upon month of relentless infection and death in Mexico, Peru, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina and so on.
    I think though that India should be regarded as a continent, and the rates considered by state. It seems to be mostly Maharashta, Delhi and Gujerat that are affected, with much lower rates elsewhere. This must be very hard on those particular areas.

    Ahmedabad sounds bad. A lot of Leicester folk have family there.

    https://twitter.com/LangaMahesh/status/1382913258286370818?s=09
    Wasn't Ahmedabad where they had some Test Matches with 50,000 spectators?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:



    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    According to Newsnight the Lambeth care home covid cases amongst vaccinated residents were asymptomatic.

    Potentially very reassuring news. If the vaccines are sufficiently effective even against variants that they prevent serious illness, that is, ultimately, all we need. If they prevent mild symptomatic cases as well, even better; prevention of asymptomatic cases is a nice-to-have.
    Even better, AIUI, the vaxxed residents had been given AZ. So this could be truly brilliant news

    Still need to shut the damn borders tho. Just for a while. Just do it. No one in the UK is going anywhere until June anyway. We’ve all accepted it
    GB or UK?
    GB

    Sorry, Ireland and NI
    I can see that going down like a bucket of cold sick.
    So we invite them to join our british isles quarantine, or have a hard border in Ireland, or accept a GB quarantine
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Foxy said:

    Good night. Busy day tommorow,

    One reads that Italy, having effectively dumped its four-tier regional Covid restrictions in March, when it went back into a national lockdown, is to start bringing them back again from April 26th. Lower prevalence areas are to be placed back into lower tiers.

    According to Our World in Data, Italy has only vaccinated about a third as many people per capita as the UK, and its case rate is ten times as high as ours and appears to have levelled off.

    If the UK's lengthy shutdown of the hospitality sector was excessive then we may get an indication of this from Italy's progress. Outdoor service at bars and restaurants is to be restored in the lower risk areas (along with limited audiences at cinemas and theatres.)

    To be fair, out door dining in Rome looks more pleasant than Leicester at the moment.

    The frost seems to have clobbered France too. It may be a very poor year for them. Covid and no wine.

    https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1382574674337538049?s=19
    Was out this evening and it was lovely in the sunshine.

    People need to stop whining about what is endlessly dry, mostly sunny, weather.

    Buy a stylish new jumper and wear it to the bar.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I’ve travelled all over the world but many of my best holidays have been in England. I just don’t understand the implication that it’s some sort of second-class holiday.

    (I’m not convinced it’s cheaper either - good accommodation and food here is pricey: what I save on fly-drive I seem to sink back in to inns and taverns)
    Er, most people accept that a holiday in Britain is MORE expensive than, say, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal. Because it is

    And for that you often get somewhat inferior accommodation with definitely inferior weather. That’s why it is seen as an inferior holiday

    It’s not because Britain is less beautiful. It is a ravishingly beautiful country, in places, and, if you don’t mind forking out, it has sublime accommodation. And the food is vastly improved and often more varied than abroad.

    But it is pricier, colder, and rainier. Them’s the facts
    Yes fair enough. I think what I was trying to say was that holidays in England are great if you are prepared to pay for them. That all said, holidays in France and Italy (where we tend to go) are expensive too: it’s only really the countries you mention which are notably cheaper.

    You make a fair point about budget/bang for your buck.
    Last summer I took the kids on a spontaneous road trip across eastern England. From Osea island in the river Blackwater to Maldon, Suffolk, lavenham, the Stour, Bury St Edmunds and Cambridge

    We lucked out with the weather but it was brilliant. Much better than the two-weeks-of-heat we did in Corfu the prior august. We ate fabulous varying food (curries to tapas to slap up pub breakfasts). We went swimming and boating. We stayed in medieval inns and Georgian coaching houses. We toured Cambridge, one of the most fascinating, mysterious, beautiful cities in the world

    It was fabulous. Memories I will take, as a parent, to my grave. But it was definitely not cheap

    The villa in Corfu was much cheaper
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    If every airline and every airport goes bust in order to keep us safe, and to allow socialising with family and friends, hugs, staycations and pints in pubs with friends, then, sorry airline industry, it’s been nice knowing you.

    If by staycation you mean holidays in the UK then the description should be holidays in the UK.

    Is there any other country in which people describe a holiday in their own country as something other than a holiday ?
    Yes, until recently a staycation was a holiday IN YOUR OWN HOUSE.
    If a holiday has to leave this country to be a holiday then significant chunks of our population never have a holiday.
    I have, as it happens, been abroad a handful of times in the last twelve years (three). But I consider holidays no less of a holiday for not leaving these shores.
    I’ve travelled all over the world but many of my best holidays have been in England. I just don’t understand the implication that it’s some sort of second-class holiday.

    (I’m not convinced it’s cheaper either - good accommodation and food here is pricey: what I save on fly-drive I seem to sink back in to inns and taverns)
    Er, most people accept that a holiday in Britain is MORE expensive than, say, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal. Because it is

    And for that you often get somewhat inferior accommodation with definitely inferior weather. That’s why it is seen as an inferior holiday

    It’s not because Britain is less beautiful. It is a ravishingly beautiful country, in places, and, if you don’t mind forking out, it has sublime accommodation. And the food is vastly improved and often more varied than abroad.

    But it is pricier, colder, and rainier. Them’s the facts
    Yes fair enough. I think what I was trying to say was that holidays in England are great if you are prepared to pay for them. That all said, holidays in France and Italy (where we tend to go) are expensive too: it’s only really the countries you mention which are notably cheaper.

    You make a fair point about budget/bang for your buck.
    Last summer I took the kids on a spontaneous road trip across eastern England. From Osea island in the river Blackwater to Maldon, Suffolk, lavenham, the Stour, Bury St Edmunds and Cambridge

    We lucked out with the weather but it was brilliant. Much better than the two-weeks-of-heat we did in Corfu the prior august. We ate fabulous varying food (curries to tapas to slap up pub breakfasts). We went swimming and boating. We stayed in medieval inns and Georgian coaching houses. We toured Cambridge, one of the most fascinating, mysterious, beautiful cities in the world

    It was fabulous. Memories I will take, as a parent, to my grave. But it was definitely not cheap

    The villa in Corfu was much cheaper
    Lovely part of the country to tour.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited April 2021
    Disaster in Canada, of all places:

    -Case rates exceed the United States for the first time in the pandemic
    -Children's hospitals in Ontario now admitting adult Covid patients
    -Field clinic being built in car park of hospital in Toronto

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56779428

    The only province with a higher case rate than Ontario at the moment appears to be Alberta, where I have friends for whom I am genuinely concerned. Fortunately I am given to understand that the medical situation there is a great deal better than out East (Ontario and Quebec have been described to me as "a total shitshow,") so I'm assuming that their caseload must've been building up from a much lower base. Alberta is under significant restrictions, but not nearly as tough as the Winter lockdown from which we're gradually emerging. I hope they're enough.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I wouldn't worry too much about Alberta. While it's growing there they're still well below the European average and social distancing is a way of life over there.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,470
    edited April 2021

    Disaster in Canada, of all places:

    -Case rates exceed the United States for the first time in the pandemic
    -Children's hospitals in Ontario now admitting adult Covid patients
    -Field clinic being built in car park of hospital in Toronto

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56779428

    The only province with a higher case rate than Ontario at the moment appears to be Alberta, where I have friends for whom I am genuinely concerned. Fortunately I am given to understand that the medical situation there is a great deal better than out East (Ontario and Quebec have been described to me as "a total shitshow,") so I'm assuming that their caseload must've been building up from a much lower base. Alberta is under significant restrictions, but not nearly as tough as the Winter lockdown from which we're gradually emerging. I hope they're enough.

    Having a Federation problem. Weak Central government providing poor vaccine procurement and rollout. Provinces were competing to prove they were less restrictive than the next.
    Ontario and Alberta have the two most populist Right Premiers.
    Neither have been very good.
    BC with a Leftist government not too hot either.
    All Parties not doing well.

    Still nowt like our January though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492

    I wouldn't worry too much about Alberta. While it's growing there they're still well below the European average and social distancing is a way of life over there.

    You've clearly never been to Cowboys in Calgary on a Friday night.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,075

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 606
    And they started work in January, so it’s two-and-a-half years (maximum).
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    rcs1000 said:

    I wouldn't worry too much about Alberta. While it's growing there they're still well below the European average and social distancing is a way of life over there.

    You've clearly never been to Cowboys in Calgary on a Friday night.
    I don’t know what you are referring to, but it sounds an unwise trip.

    Is it a DIY store?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,494
    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Another confession

    Last night I drove COMPLETELY PISSED

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

    ok it was after midnight. The roads were deserted. And I only drive 30 yards to repark my car. BUT STILL

    I AM THE LORD OF MISRULE

    In all seriousness I wouldn’t have done that - drive 30 yards drunk at 1am - a year ago. A spirit of anarchy is abroad. The Rebel Yell echoes through the pine-stands

    About 5 years ago I reparked our car after a wedding. I swear my wife is a worse driver tired than I am after and long night of drinking (caveat - alcohol may have altered my mental faculties... ). It was only in a hotel car park but still felt daring...

    One wedding I went to, many years ago, I snorted coke off the bonnet of the happy couple’s hired Rolls Royce - in broad daylight, at 3pm, along with one of the bridesmaids. It was parked outside the very posh hotel, booked for the reception.

    Then I took the bridesmaid back to my family house and fucked her on the washing machine (spin cycle)

    I was a younger man then. These days I get excited if I drive tipsy for 30 meters on an empty road. SIGH
    You tumbled her on a washing machine?

    Sounds like the sort of crazy thing old @SeanT would do.
    Dunno about him, but I once co-hosted a very wild house party in Islington with quite famous people like **** ******* and ******* ******* all doing endless drugs in rather a surreal way. The surreality culminated when one of my housemates went into the bathroom to find a Bananarama being fucked on the tumbledryer
    Indeed. Very surreal to have a tumbledryer in the bathroom
    You will never understand
    How it feels to live your life
    With no meaning or control
    And with nowhere left to go
    You are amazed that they exist
    And they burn so bright
    Whilst you can only wonder why
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492
    gealbhan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I wouldn't worry too much about Alberta. While it's growing there they're still well below the European average and social distancing is a way of life over there.

    You've clearly never been to Cowboys in Calgary on a Friday night.
    I don’t know what you are referring to, but it sounds an unwise trip.

    Is it a DIY store?
    It's the nightclub for alberta's oil workers. They've just spent ten days in Fort McMurray, working 12 hour shifts every day, and now they're in Calgary, there's money in their pockets, and they aren't working for another four or five days.

    And Cowboys opens late.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,753
    On topic, the YouGov unfortunately feels like an outlier. Which is a shame, as a kick up the backside is what Labour needs. It is amazing that so many of them are still underestimating Boris after losing to him in London twice and being trounced by him in 2019.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    More seriously, THIS could destroy the Tories overnight


    ‘New Covid variants appear to be escaping vaccines, with the latest figures showing a doubling in cases of the South African mutation in the UK in the last month.’

    ‘The outbreak in London is thought to have been triggered by an individual travelling from a country in Africa to the UK in February, with cases spreading to members of their household and then to a care home in Lambeth, which is understood to have suffered at least 23 infections.’

    Why was ANYONE allowed into the UK from Africa in February? If they did get in, why weren’t they isolated in a prison-like environment for 3 weeks until tested 9 times and proven safe? I don’t care if they were coming back to see a dying mother. Tough shit. I haven’t seen my mother since last summer. No one in the UK can go anywhere

    This boils my blood. If all our lockdowns prove pointless because Boris couldn’t seal the borders I will vote Anything But Tory for the rest of recorded time

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/16/fears-covid-variants-escaping-vaccines-cases-south-african-strain/

    23 cases in a care home? Would have all been well post vaccination. Ominous.

    Were any of them admitted
    I was told earlier this that the government will not place new residents in care homes unless at least 70% of staff are vaccinated. It’s causing some concern in the industry - hence Pete Calveley’s comments
    Yes, that’s all well and good, Charles, but the more pressing question is: do you have a room dedicated to fucking-a-Bananarama-on-the-tumble-dryer, and, presuming you do, like most well-educated English gentlefolk, what do you do with this room on the rare occasions when it doesn’t actually contain a Bananarama being fucked on the tumbledryer?

    You can’t avoid these questions forever, it’s like the SNP and the currency issue.
    I spent a very fun evening with Marianne Faithful when I was young. She could have made one of your devices out of her voice
    I thought she favoured confectionery.
    Men are from Mars, women from Venus.

    Marianne Faithful is the exception that proves the rule.
    I wonder whether @MarqueeMark 's movie biopic of Sir Mick's former squeeze will contain any product placement?
    a) It's my wife's movie.

    b) No, because (killing an urban myth) Marianne says it never happened*. Although no doubt much imitated over the years on the basis of that story...

    * She did a lot of heroin, so might not have full recall of all things that happened. So perhaps it did after all!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,839
    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Inquiries were replaced by hearings two reviews back. They’re sessions where people make representations, now, nothing more.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,937
    First Friday night since the pubs reopen. Some good lager shed chat to catch up on while the rest of you lie in. Had to Google the Mars bar. Ooh urr missus
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,839
    Kent police say catching suspects has become even trickier as putting together an accurate efit – which officers use like wanted posters – is difficult when the person in question is wearing a mask.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Kent police say catching suspects has become even trickier as putting together an accurate efit – which officers use like wanted posters – is difficult when the person in question is wearing a mask.

    They’re bright down there, they are
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 42,839
    Line of Duty appeals not just because of the outrageous plotting, but because it touches a raw nerve in British society. When Hastings rails against the fact of “a barefaced liar promoted to our highest office”, the character is talking of his own fictional police force. Viewers, though, may see a wider picture.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,075

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Don't follow
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    edited April 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
    That shouldn't take years to resolve though!
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
    That shouldn't take years to resolve though!
    It may have taken years to find a map simple enough for the BCE to understand.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
    Especially when the "criteria set out by the government" includes bending the system to create more seats for them and less seats for the opposition. Which was explicitly the aim of the pre-2015 review.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,405

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? ...
    The criteria set out by government include such consultation ?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
    Especially when the "criteria set out by the government" includes bending the system to create more seats for them and less seats for the opposition. Which was explicitly the aim of the pre-2015 review.
    That’s a ridiculous, unconscionable statement.

    It should be, ‘fewer seats for the Opposition.’
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
  • ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
    Especially when the "criteria set out by the government" includes bending the system to create more seats for them and less seats for the opposition. Which was explicitly the aim of the pre-2015 review.
    That’s a ridiculous, unconscionable statement.

    It should be, ‘fewer seats for the Opposition.’
    Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I'm from Lancashire. One day I'll teach the world to talk propper like what I do.
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    And his readiness to believe everything the Guardian writes as gospel

    His comments are so ill-informed as is his post
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,092
    edited April 2021

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    He had sought permission before accepting them and declared them

    You need another holiday to catch up on the facts

    And this story was widely discussed on here yesterday

    And maybe your habit of calling conservative politicians by immature names reflects more on you than them
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
    ...and some of the seat names would no doubt be great puns too!
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,022

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
    There is a great piece in Crossman's diaries about the Wilson Cabinet's response to the proposals from a Boundary Commission review.

    Harold Wilson says the Government must not be seen to gerrymander, and then goes on to say the main job of the Government response is to prevent Labour seats becoming Tory ..... or, err, to gerrymander.

    This is of course one reason why it takes so long.

    There are Tory objections that try to make Tory seats, Labour objections that try to make more Labour seats, etc.

    As our parties are cunning, these are obviously dressed up as Ward X has historically belonged to the constituency of X Central rather than X North West, we must not break precedent ... blah, blah, blah.

    But, really, the job is not hard, and there should be very limited reasons for objections, IMO. And limited time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
    ...and some of the seat names would no doubt be great puns too!
    Absolutely.

    How does ‘Alyn Wrexham’ grab you?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,361
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
    My recollection is that this started in the first government of the Coalition so we are approaching a decade to date. In fact its even longer. The last time the boundaries were updated was 2010 in rUK, 2005 in Scotland. The changes were based on a review started in 2000 so 21 years and counting. It really is a piece of nonsense.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
    A bit harsh to call it a “silly mistake”. Clearly an error, but a reasonable one for someone without local knowledge to make. Hence why you have the ability to make representations locally.
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
    Ooh! Get her!

    To respond to you and Big Vern in North Wales, I am happy to be corrected on the specifics. If you have evidence to disprove that:
    1) Jenrick did not intervene to gift Desmond a £45m rax saving having sat next to him at a £12k a plate Tory fundraiser
    2) Hancock did not hand out contracts at £107m a pop without tender to Tories including his pub landlord
    3) Cameron didn't lobby the Chancellor for public cash to unlock his $60m
    then lets hear it. Otherwise I will take comments about me being ignorant of the facts under advisement.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,628
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    We have a potentially dangerous variant from India, but I don't think India has been put on the red list yet?

    Looking grim:

    BREAKING: India reports 233,757 new coronavirus cases, by far the biggest one-day increase so far, and a record 1,338 new deaths

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1383127597236764676?s=19
    As I said a few days ago, India has the potential to be the worst Covid story of all (it was likewise the worst in Spanish flu)

    If this variant evades the vaccines, and if it can reinfect, then we are fucked. These are big ifs. But it is possible. Our government is, apparently, incapable of closing our borders, so it will come here in big waves (it is here already, in small numbers, of course)

    Well done, Boris. Well done
    Has anyone published the criteria for 'red listing' a country yet? It seems to be a rather arcane process. If there were a set of criteria it would be easier to hold politicians to account for not doing it.
    The red list should be: the entire world.

    Tough shit if you get stuck on the wrong side of the barrier. We’re an island and we’re making the most of that. NZ, OZ and Taiwan show that this WORKS
    Yes. There's something a little follow-the-money-esque about the whole thing isn't there? The Government just don't seem to want aviation to take a hit. Likewise commuting and London. Perhaps it relates to large scale projects like HS2 and Runway 3 that are considered too big to fail.
    It's also a little more complex than that.

    We have truckers coming in, and the other islands don't. Completely sealing the borders is therefore much harder for us than for them. I mean, we could do it, but there would be an economic impact for us that the other islands simply don't get.

    But here's the other thing. Israel is a little bit ahead of us, and has opened the borders and removed restrictons and...

    They're doing fine. All the evidence - so far - is that vaccines are incredibly effective at preventing both serious disease and transmission of the virus.

    Truckers is one thing.

    People flying in from Africa or Peru or India is another.
    Exactly. Stop what can be stopped. Allow only absolutely essential freight and so on.

    This is what Starmer needs to be smashing the government on every single day.

    "The government has undoubtedly done a wonderful job with procuring vaccines for the country and the NHS has duly given them out to 33m people, why then is the government risking this great work by keeping the border open [list examples of imported variants]."

    Just ask Boris the same fucking question six times until he answers, do it every fucking week and every single time there's a new imported variant get a boost in the polls and also get the huge "I fucking told you, you lying cunt" moment. He'd have had three of these already vs none at the moment.
    He's called for hotel quarantine for everyone coming from abroad. That would have done the trick I think, had it been implemented.

    It doesn't make a difference either way. A decent chunk of the public blindly likes Boris Johnson.
  • So going off BigVern and Al the Pub Landlord, PB Tories are perfectly happy to see their money transferred into trouser pockets, as long as its the right colour of trouser pocket.

    Figures.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    Perhaps post a link to demonstrate Hancock awarding a contract between NHS Wales and his sister’s company?

    Or not accuse him of corruption?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,758
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
    My recollection is that this started in the first government of the Coalition so we are approaching a decade to date. In fact its even longer. The last time the boundaries were updated was 2010 in rUK, 2005 in Scotland. The changes were based on a review started in 2000 so 21 years and counting. It really is a piece of nonsense.
    Sounds more like a beurocracy than democracy to me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
    Except what you call "democracy" is merely an opportunity for political parties to keep the status quo of their nice cosy safe seats!

    Example. You could have a city where there are currently 5 safe Labour inner city seats, 2 marginals, 5 safe Tory suburban/rural seats. Now, it could be independently decided that the fairest way to divide the population in that region was to have 12 slices of pizza out from the city centre, taking in inner city/suburbia/countryside. Making 12 marginal seats. You think the parties would accept that? Like hell they would. But why should they be allowed to bitch for months or years to keep 10 out of 12 seats safe?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,022

    So going off BigVern and Al the Pub Landlord, PB Tories are perfectly happy to see their money transferred into trouser pockets, as long as its the right colour of trouser pocket.

    Figures.

    I think you need a lie down to wait for the medication to work 👍
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    He, quite rightly, declared the shareholding.

    He, quite rightly, was not involved in awarding of the contract

    He, quite rightly, is not involved in operational matters at his sister’s company

    The fact of the contract is, quite rightly, a matter of public record

    I’m not sure what you are upset about?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,864

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,092
    edited April 2021
    @RochdalePioneers

    You were making an ill informed comment about Hancock and you were wrong

    As far as the issues with Cameron, the civil service, other politicians and hangers on, 8 enquiries ars taking place and the truth will come out and changes will follow

    And again your immature reference to me, maybe time to grow up and have an adult discussion
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Because we are a democracy. Decisions of such import should never be made behind closed doors where citizens cannot "put their oar in".
    Except what you call "democracy" is merely an opportunity for political parties to keep the status quo of their nice cosy safe seats!

    Example. You could have a city where there are currently 5 safe Labour inner city seats, 2 marginals, 5 safe Tory suburban/rural seats. Now, it could be independently decided that the fairest way to divide the population in that region was to have 12 slices of pizza out from the city centre, taking in inner city/suburbia/countryside. Making 12 marginal seats. You think the parties would accept that? Like hell they would. But why should they be allowed to bitch for months or years to keep 10 out of 12 seats safe?
    The only way to do this fairly is to have an independent commission who both set the criteria and decide the changes. The risk of having politicians involved is we get as bad as the Americans with their redistricting.

    Or better still, adopt STV and/or multi-member constituencies. I can't see anyone complaining up here about the boundaries of the regional list areas.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963
    edited April 2021
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The main reason it takes so long is in order to allow ordinary people to take part in the process by making objections and representations. Inquiries have to be held for each area, sometimes more than once.
    Which completely undermines the work of an independent body, when local self-interested parties say "What? Me have a council estate/posh new development moved into my constituency? Bugger that....." How does that serve democracy?
    Eh?

    All independent bodies allow people to make representations - whether it's planning or drawing boundaries.

    But in this instance, why? If the independent body has done its job on the criteria set out by Government, why should I be able to put my oar in and say "I don't want X bit of Y in my constituency"? The objections are invariably down to a) political unhappiness or b) snobbery. They should not be grounds for interfering in the process, especially if it causes years of delay.
    Well, in fairness they have been known to make silly mistakes. ISTR they put two contiguous bits of Cumbria in a successor seat to Copeland, unaware there was a bloody great mountain in the way and it was an hour’s drive from one part of the proposed constituency to the other.
    A bit harsh to call it a “silly mistake”. Clearly an error, but a reasonable one for someone without local knowledge to make. Hence why you have the ability to make representations locally.
    Someone without local knowledge and unable to understand these things called ‘maps?’

    I’ll stick with ‘silly mistake.’

    ETA - if they’re going to take three years, they can damn well visit these areas anyway. If they’re not going to bother doing that, it should only take a few weeks.
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
    Have Welsh Labour been leaned on to give public cash to unlock $60m in shares for Carwyn Jones? Even the fantastic scandal involving Unite and various Liverpool Labour members isn't on the same scale. And I would be delighted to see Liverpudlian voters sweep Labour out of power there.

    To read posts from Charles et al it seems clear that there has been no problems whatsoever with NHS contracts or Cameron or Jenrick or Patel. All entirely above board. Like I said, figures. I'll shut up about it now, having been away for 3 days I was curious as to what the take was from PB Tories. I was right...
  • So going off BigVern and Al the Pub Landlord, PB Tories are perfectly happy to see their money transferred into trouser pockets, as long as its the right colour of trouser pocket.

    Figures.

    Time to go on holiday again

    You are to be fair being idiotic
  • So going off BigVern and Al the Pub Landlord, PB Tories are perfectly happy to see their money transferred into trouser pockets, as long as its the right colour of trouser pocket.

    Figures.

    Time to go on holiday again

    You are to be fair being idiotic
    If you are fine with Robert Jenrick and David Cameron's behaviour then good for you. If condemning the trousering and attempted trousering of your money and my money makes me idiotic then I've been called worse.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
    Have Welsh Labour been leaned on to give public cash to unlock $60m in shares for Carwyn Jones? Even the fantastic scandal involving Unite and various Liverpool Labour members isn't on the same scale. And I would be delighted to see Liverpudlian voters sweep Labour out of power there.

    To read posts from Charles et al it seems clear that there has been no problems whatsoever with NHS contracts or Cameron or Jenrick or Patel. All entirely above board. Like I said, figures. I'll shut up about it now, having been away for 3 days I was curious as to what the take was from PB Tories. I was right...
    I was commenting on your misrepresentation of the facts on this specific case.

    On the Cameron/Greensill case (based on what I’ve seen) it stinks. There is quite rightly a review. I’m not aware that the *government* as opposed to Cameron did anything wrong. Perhaps you have some evidence you would share?

    Jenrick I don’t know enough about to form a view, but the timing looks questionable. Patel I must have missed the scandal?
  • Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
    Have Welsh Labour been leaned on to give public cash to unlock $60m in shares for Carwyn Jones? Even the fantastic scandal involving Unite and various Liverpool Labour members isn't on the same scale. And I would be delighted to see Liverpudlian voters sweep Labour out of power there.

    To read posts from Charles et al it seems clear that there has been no problems whatsoever with NHS contracts or Cameron or Jenrick or Patel. All entirely above board. Like I said, figures. I'll shut up about it now, having been away for 3 days I was curious as to what the take was from PB Tories. I was right...
    No you were wrong in your accusation

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,618
    edited April 2021
    PB Tories on Tory sleaze...

    https://youtu.be/aKnX5wci404
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047


    3) Cameron didn't lobby the Chancellor for public cash to unlock his $60m
    then lets hear it. Otherwise I will take comments about me being ignorant of the facts under advisement.

    You seem ignorant of the fact that despite the lobbying of the former PM, the regime of the current PM politely listened - then ignored him.

    No public money was "unlocked". Exactly right. Where's the beef? Other than "It's a Tory Government. Surely it SHOULD have, er, handed over the money, because....er...Tory scum!!"
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,753
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
    Am I the only one who doesn't understand WHY it takes so long? Let's look at the case of Wales.

    There are FOUR Boundary Commissioners for Wales (they are supplied with plenty of backroom help).

    They have to redraw 31 seats. (Because Ynys Mon is protected and so its boundaries are fixed by the Irish Sea).

    How on earth does this take THREE YEARS?

    A competent individual should be able to get the job done in an afternoon with a penalized optimisation code.

    All right, so there is a comments & consultation process ... but this is NOT three years work for four people.
    The Commissioners final report is due to be implemented in mid-2023 - ie just over two years from now.
    The work began in 2020. But, three years, two years ... it doesn't matter.

    As @dixiedean has shown, the redrawing of 31 Welsh can be done much more quickly.

    In fact, pay the no doubt well-reimbursed Boundary Commissioner's salaries to pb.com, and we'll do it very quickly.
    You, me, GarethoftheVale and Dixiedean, one afternoon, couple of pints each, sorted.
    My recollection is that this started in the first government of the Coalition so we are approaching a decade to date. In fact its even longer. The last time the boundaries were updated was 2010 in rUK, 2005 in Scotland. The changes were based on a review started in 2000 so 21 years and counting. It really is a piece of nonsense.
    I think we should have given the boundary review to Prince Philip. As he said, we only need 200 MPs - the rest are a waste of space. Probably too late for that now, though.
  • So going off BigVern and Al the Pub Landlord, PB Tories are perfectly happy to see their money transferred into trouser pockets, as long as its the right colour of trouser pocket.

    Figures.

    Time to go on holiday again

    You are to be fair being idiotic
    If you are fine with Robert Jenrick and David Cameron's behaviour then good for you. If condemning the trousering and attempted trousering of your money and my money makes me idiotic then I've been called worse.
    Read my post properly

    There are 8 enquiries and it is only correct to let them do their work and report the findings

    Sadly your comments this morning were ill informed and reflect back on you and your lack of knowledge when making allegations against Hancock

    And where there is corruption it has to be revealed and dealt with wherever it occurs and this applies to all political parties and organisations
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
    Oh come off it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what RP is saying today, that prize belongs to Contrarian.

    Honourable mentions to Hyufd, Topping, Justin.
  • Charles said:

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
    Have Welsh Labour been leaned on to give public cash to unlock $60m in shares for Carwyn Jones? Even the fantastic scandal involving Unite and various Liverpool Labour members isn't on the same scale. And I would be delighted to see Liverpudlian voters sweep Labour out of power there.

    To read posts from Charles et al it seems clear that there has been no problems whatsoever with NHS contracts or Cameron or Jenrick or Patel. All entirely above board. Like I said, figures. I'll shut up about it now, having been away for 3 days I was curious as to what the take was from PB Tories. I was right...
    I was commenting on your misrepresentation of the facts on this specific case.

    On the Cameron/Greensill case (based on what I’ve seen) it stinks. There is quite rightly a review. I’m not aware that the *government* as opposed to Cameron did anything wrong. Perhaps you have some evidence you would share?

    Jenrick I don’t know enough about to form a view, but the timing looks questionable. Patel I must have missed the scandal?
    Glad we are back to having a measured discussion.

    With the Cameron case it seems pretty clear what was being asked for. It is to Sunak's credit that he resisted. However, the news about civil servants also wearing private sector hats is disturbing, and Johnson's response is to continue to try and bury it rather than accept there is an issue.

    Perhaps the Arcuri issue and £126k is the reason for Johnson's reticence on this matter.

    Jenrick seems fairly straight forward. Patel bullies her advisers and breaks the ministerial code. Johnson overrules his own ethics adviser who resigns in disgust. The government have not filled the post and no longer have an ethics adviser.

    NHS contracts get handed out without tender like sweeties to children visiting their granny. Yes, in times of crisis you fall back on people you know. But it wasn't procurement experts we know who were relied upon. It was the landlord of the Health Secretary's local pub. It was a company set up 5 minutes before by a Tory that gets a vast sum of cash without question to do something they have no experience in doing.

    You don't see the problem? One issue on its own is bad. All of them combined is a government openly doing what it can to bin both the rules and any semblance of propriety. Led by the man at the top with his own cash for lovers scandal.

    All I was wondering was if PB Tory grandees like yourself see anything wrong with this. Poilitically it won't make a jot of difference, this isn't about partisanship. This is about calling out wrong - and Labour may not have anything this bad in their own back catalogue, but until they sever ties with Unite they will struggle to be anything other than hypocrites.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,466
    The drawing of boundaries is always going to be fraught, because they aim to optimise three different things, when you can realistically get only two:

    - Close to equal numbers of constituents per MP
    - Single MP per constituency
    - Constituencies being natural communities.

    Pick any two.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963
    edited April 2021
    I know Johnson has said he’s not going to bring in vaccine passports ATM. However, more opposition to them in the last few hours:

    Covid-19: Vaccine passports 'unethical', church ministers warn
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56781724

    If mosques were to say the same, as would schools have to of course, that would render them more or less useless anyway.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,505
    ydoethur said:

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
    Oh come off it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what RP is saying today, that prize belongs to Contrarian.

    Honourable mentions to Hyufd, Topping, Justin.
    Your three "honourable mentions" wouldn't feature on any list of mine. HYUFD in particular, save for his military intervention tendencies, is one of our more informed posters

    Save for my awesome Marianne Faithful pun last night, I pride myself on posting unreconstructed and ill-informed b*ll*cks. So my failure to get an "honourable mention" has been taken as a personal insult!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    It has already been pointed out endless times that Labour's VAUGHAN GETHING was the minister responsible for awarding the contract to Matt Hancock's sister's firm.

    It was a contract with NHS Wales.

    Despite moving to Scotland, your knowledge of devolution seems as poor as ever.
    It isn't the award of the contract thats the issue. I have no doubt that it was done properly. Its the lack of a DECLARATION by ManCock. After awarding so many £107m contracts with no tender to Tories, the idea that awarding a contract to a company owned by his mum and his sister with himself a 15% shareholder and him NOT declaring it is ok is mad.

    He's had to declare it now. He didn't do before because he thought he'd not need to as they can do anything.
    No doubt it should have been declared, but .... maybe Hancock has been a bit busy this last year with something.

    Sure Hancock should be reprimanded ... but get some perspective, this is not a big deal about the worst SLEAZE ever.

    Produce some real Tory SLEAZE, and I'll happily condemn. Or come to Wales, and we'll show you some Labour SLEAZE.
    Have Welsh Labour been leaned on to give public cash to unlock $60m in shares for Carwyn Jones? Even the fantastic scandal involving Unite and various Liverpool Labour members isn't on the same scale. And I would be delighted to see Liverpudlian voters sweep Labour out of power there.

    To read posts from Charles et al it seems clear that there has been no problems whatsoever with NHS contracts or Cameron or Jenrick or Patel. All entirely above board. Like I said, figures. I'll shut up about it now, having been away for 3 days I was curious as to what the take was from PB Tories. I was right...
    I was commenting on your misrepresentation of the facts on this specific case.

    On the Cameron/Greensill case (based on what I’ve seen) it stinks. There is quite rightly a review. I’m not aware that the *government* as opposed to Cameron did anything wrong. Perhaps you have some evidence you would share?

    Jenrick I don’t know enough about to form a view, but the timing looks questionable. Patel I must have missed the scandal?
    Glad we are back to having a measured discussion.

    With the Cameron case it seems pretty clear what was being asked for. It is to Sunak's credit that he resisted. However, the news about civil servants also wearing private sector hats is disturbing, and Johnson's response is to continue to try and bury it rather than accept there is an issue.

    Perhaps the Arcuri issue and £126k is the reason for Johnson's reticence on this matter.

    Jenrick seems fairly straight forward. Patel bullies her advisers and breaks the ministerial code. Johnson overrules his own ethics adviser who resigns in disgust. The government have not filled the post and no longer have an ethics adviser.

    NHS contracts get handed out without tender like sweeties to children visiting their granny. Yes, in times of crisis you fall back on people you know. But it wasn't procurement experts we know who were relied upon. It was the landlord of the Health Secretary's local pub. It was a company set up 5 minutes before by a Tory that gets a vast sum of cash without question to do something they have no experience in doing.

    You don't see the problem? One issue on its own is bad. All of them combined is a government openly doing what it can to bin both the rules and any semblance of propriety. Led by the man at the top with his own cash for lovers scandal.

    All I was wondering was if PB Tory grandees like yourself see anything wrong with this. Poilitically it won't make a jot of difference, this isn't about partisanship. This is about calling out wrong - and Labour may not have anything this bad in their own back catalogue, but until they sever ties with Unite they will struggle to be anything other than hypocrites.
    I’m not a particular fan of this government - they strike me as the sort of people “who did well out of the war”.

    I don’t get worked up about the bullying claim. Frankly someone who aspires to be the head of a department (meaning the civil servant) should be robust enough to have fiery discussion with their minister. I’ve not met Patel but I suspect she can be brusque and unpleasant. But if the relationship isn’t working he should have stepped down or moved to another role and not have gone whining to the press.

    Bullying is about abuse of a power relationship. If you are head of a department that power relationship doesn’t exist: you are the equal to the minister
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,963
    edited April 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
    Oh come off it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what RP is saying today, that prize belongs to Contrarian.

    Honourable mentions to Hyufd, Topping, Justin.
    Your three "honourable mentions" wouldn't feature on any list of mine. HYUFD in particular, save for his military intervention tendencies, is one of our more informed posters

    Save for my awesome Marianne Faithful pun last night, I pride myself on posting unreconstructed and ill-informed b*ll*cks. So my failure to get an "honourable mention" has been taken as a personal insult!
    I was thinking of his geographical aberrations. The Ullapool Inverness ferry, and the suggestion that Iran’s blockade of the Strait of Hormuz could be avoided by going round the Cape of Good Hope.

    Plus his persistent refusal to accept he was wrong.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047
    Anyway, Prince Philip's service has given us all a day off pounding politics on the pavements. Time to take the day off here too and attack the garden, I reckon.

    Play nice, children.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    Morning all! After a 3 day business trip I'm now back home in sunny Aberdeenshire not missing England one little bit.

    Great piece from Freedland in the Grauniad this morning - the open corruption in the Tory party is off the scale to previous "Tory sleaze". As for why they get away with it, (1) people have been told that all politicians are as bad (they aren't), and (2) Labour are so inept that the likes of Hancock think that they can award contracts to their family company not declare it and nobody will find out.

    We do have PB Tories of course, and your party is going nowhere. In office and likely to remain in office. So this isn't about party politics, this is basic right and wrong. Can PB Tories condemn the openly bent members of their government and call on them to behave? That they are your party makes it more important that their own call it out and get them to reform.

    Corruption is wrong even when your side are the ones who are corrupt. Call it out guys. Its your money they are pocketing.

    And we in England are not missing you one little bit!

    Has there ever been anyone on this site consistently more ill informed or ignorant about anything?

    PS why does it take you three days to get your welfare handouts? Can't you sort it out locally in Scotland?
    Oh come off it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what RP is saying today, that prize belongs to Contrarian.

    Honourable mentions to Hyufd, Topping, Justin.
    Your three "honourable mentions" wouldn't feature on any list of mine. HYUFD in particular, save for his military intervention tendencies, is one of our more informed posters

    Save for my awesome Marianne Faithful pun last night, I pride myself on posting unreconstructed and ill-informed b*ll*cks. So my failure to get an "honourable mention" has been taken as a personal insult!
    Your pun was a confection of delight
  • Charles said:

    I’m not a particular fan of this government - they strike me as the sort of people “who did well out of the war”.

    I don’t get worked up about the bullying claim. Frankly someone who aspires to be the head of a department (meaning the civil servant) should be robust enough to have fiery discussion with their minister. I’ve not met Patel but I suspect she can be brusque and unpleasant. But if the relationship isn’t working he should have stepped down or moved to another role and not have gone whining to the press.

    Bullying is about abuse of a power relationship. If you are head of a department that power relationship doesn’t exist: you are the equal to the minister

    With Patel and Sir Alex Allan it read that he quit because he considered his position to be untenable. He found that she broke the ministerial code which ordinarily prompts resignation or a sacking. When the response of Johnson was to ask Allan to tone down his conclusions and when he did not to simply overrule the report, the man quit.

    There is a very simple propriety issue - ministers get away with things that in any other government would have forced their removal. Which has significantly damaged the Tories in Scotland when Douglas Ross decided to go after Nippie demanding her resignation - the obvious hypocrisy is laughable. Any other opposition party could have made that attack with credibility, not the Tories.

    I have respected many Tory ministers and PMs even if I disagreed with them politically. With very few exceptions the current lot are a disgrace to the party and what it supposedly stands for. And yet people like yourself seem to say nothing and do nothing. This isn't even about the need to stay in power - that's happening anyway.

    Wouldn't you prefer a decent and honourable Tory government instead of *this*?
This discussion has been closed.