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If it looks like an outlier, walks like an outlier, and talks like an outlier then it probably is an

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited April 2021 in General
If it looks like an outlier, walks like an outlier, and talks like an outlier then it probably is an outlier – politicalbetting.com

Westminster voting intention:CON: 43% (+2)LAB: 29% (-5)GRN: 8% (+2)LDEM: 8% (+2)REFUK: 3% (-)via @YouGov, 12 – 13 AprChgs. w/ 08 Aprhttps://t.co/iLUFQC28FB pic.twitter.com/MBO4Y10HGc

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  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,247
    edited April 2021
    Interesting poll on Boris v Other Conservative leaders

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1383086531359957000?s=19
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2021
    Does this pass for a proper political interview these days? I am no fan of Salmond, but over half the interview talking about what random people said on twitter in the past.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wfFoBMO-JI
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,763
    edited April 2021
    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk
  • Options

    Does this pass for a proper political interview these days? I am no fan of Salmond, but over half the interview talking about what random people said on twitter in the past.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wfFoBMO-JI

    It was hilarious and Nicola must have enjoyed it immensely
  • Options
    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,442
    Evening PB. Something interesting always seems to happen when I don't visit the site for 24 hours, and this time it's a 14 point Labour lead thanks to the Greens being on 8%.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    At the rate things are going, Labour won't be nearly strong enough to stand comparison with the mighty Boudicca. It'll be more like the Battle of the M'boto Gorge than the Battle of Watling Street.

    But there's still time, of course, for things to get better.

    Or worse.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
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    Andy_JS said:

    Evening PB. Something interesting always seems to happen when I don't visit the site for 24 hours, and this time it's a 14 point Labour lead thanks to the Greens being on 8%.

    Are you sure about the labour lead !!!!!!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    BBC news piece said it’s because the Americans have used these vaccines on pregnant women without any problems. Very good of them to act as a test bed for everyone else!
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited April 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    BBC news piece said it’s because the Americans have used these vaccines on pregnant women without any problems. Very good of them to act as a test bed for everyone else!
    My boss, who lives over the river in New Jersey, is expecting and has just had her first dose of Pfizer. She had told me she was unsure about getting vaccinated while pregnant but has decided the benefits outweigh the risks.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280
    edited April 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    Yup.

    My father says the Oxford AstraZeneca is the new MMR, i.e. the most calls/texts he receives from friends is them asking 'is it safe?' and it just isn't the vaccine hesitant groups asking.

    He's worried that if it is decided that kids need to receive a Covid-19 vaccine then the uptake is going to be significantly lower as parents have doubts just not about the Oxford AZN one but all Covid-19 vaccines.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Evening all :)

    YouGov occasionally throws out "outlier" numbers for one of the parties which generates a lot of press coverage (one could be cynical about that I suppose). It's the highest poll rating for the Greens since the GE.

    Sometimes a lot changes, sometimes it doesn't - the latest Opinium poll shows Labour still 16 points ahead of the Conservatives in London (49-33). Both parties are up a point since Dec 2019, the Greens are up three to six and the LDs down six to nine.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    I would.
    I wouldn't be surprised if they had 8% support, mind. Just won't get that under FPTP.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    I would.
    I wouldn't be surprised if they had 8% support, mind. Just won't get that under FPTP.
    Ukip 2015 say hello.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    dixiedean said:

    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.

    If the Tories can hold their voter coalition together, and consequently maintain a floor of 40%, then - given that the SNP show no sign of weakening, and the Lib Dems seem able to command 8% even under the most dire circumstances - it will be impossible for Labour to get anywhere close to winning a General Election. The best they can possibly do is scrape in as a minority, the 2017 result shows how difficult even that might be to achieve, and if it looks even remotely plausible then the Conservatives can simply wheel out the Nicola-Sturgeon-as-puppeteer memes again, probably to considerable effect amongst the majority of voters in provincial England that loathe Scottish Nationalism.

    The political landscape continues to evolve not necessarily to Keir Starmer's advantage.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    edited April 2021
    dixiedean said:

    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.

    Yes that's a worry. The coalition they put together to Get Brexit Done might prove solid enough to Get More Tory Landslides Done.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280
    edited April 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    There's a bit of misunderstanding going on about the Greens.

    There's no one unified Green Party.

    The Vegan Branch of the SNP probably won't put up a full slate of candidates in Scottish Westminster seats if there's a risk to the SNP, they only put up 22 candidates out of 59 seats in 2019.

    Then there's the E&W Green Party who made pacts with the Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru at GE2019, I can see something similar happening in 2024 so the Green support is already capped.

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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    It's worth pointing out it's been an exceptional period since the last election and comparisons with past Parliaments just aren't valid - the post-Covid political landscape may well be favourable in the short term for the Government - will that last? I just don't know.

    I'm also left to wonder what will happen on May 6th - will those who came out and voted for Boris and Brexit on December 12th 2019 come out in numbers to back local Conservative councils and councillors?

    @HYUFD rightly mentions split voting at local level and we'll see how that manifests. It's often the case in low turnout elections those wanting to kick the Government are more motivated than those wanting to back it. It's also worth pointing out the 2017 County contests were held at the peak of Theresa May's popularity (those words still don't sit well together) so for the Conservatives to hold all those seems improbable.

    Now, I'm not going to discount a Conservative victory in 2024 - it's the most likely outcome for no other reason than Brand "Boris" will still be popular in much of England and Wales. As others have said, 2019 increasingly "feels" like an opposition winning power after a long period of Government by another party.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2021

    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    There's a bit of misunderstanding going on about the Greens.

    There's no one unified Green Party.

    The Vegan Branch of the SNP probably won't put up a full slate of candidates in Scottish Westminster seats if there's a risk to the SNP, they only put up 22 candidates out of 59 seats in 2019.

    Alison Johnson must not have got the memo.

    The Greens ensuring Baroness Ruth fluked her way to a seat actually ensured the Greens got a list seat. If the SNP had won Ed Central then the Cons would have taken the list seat not the Greens.

  • Options
    Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    There's a bit of misunderstanding going on about the Greens.

    There's no one unified Green Party.

    The Vegan Branch of the SNP probably won't put up a full slate of candidates in Scottish Westminster seats if there's a risk to the SNP, they only put up 22 candidates out of 59 seats in 2019.

    Alison Johnson must not have got the memo.

    The Greens ensuring Baroness Ruth flunked her way to a seat actually ensured the Greens got a list seat. If the SNP had won Ed Central then the Cons would have taken the lost seat not the Greens.

    A PR election is different to a FPTP election, the Greens have learned that lesson.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748
    Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Mid-term polls aren’t particularly useful, but I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking in this thread header.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the Greens get 8% at the next election.

    There's a bit of misunderstanding going on about the Greens.

    There's no one unified Green Party.

    The Vegan Branch of the SNP probably won't put up a full slate of candidates in Scottish Westminster seats if there's a risk to the SNP, they only put up 22 candidates out of 59 seats in 2019.

    Alison Johnson must not have got the memo.

    The Greens ensuring Baroness Ruth flunked her way to a seat actually ensured the Greens got a list seat. If the SNP had won Ed Central then the Cons would have taken the lost seat not the Greens.

    The Greens are of course useless currently. However they are working on something approaching a 21st Century mindset. Labour, in part operate on a 19th Century one.

    If the Greens started freeing themselves from the really stupid people that they've always embraced then who knows.

    Actual 'Green' policy things like climate change are being handled much better by the mainstream parties.
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    edited April 2021
    No other pollster has the Greens above their usual 5%, but even if they were on 8%, Labour must not waver prioritising targeting Tory voters this term, there is no other viable strategy. If they lose the next election it's far, far more likely to be because they haven't won over enough Tory voters than because they've bled too many from the left.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    Yup.

    My father says the Oxford AstraZeneca is the new MMR, i.e. the most calls/texts he receives from friends is them asking 'is it safe?' and it just isn't the vaccine hesitant groups asking.

    He's worried that if it is decided that kids need to receive a Covid-19 vaccine then the uptake is going to be significantly lower as parents have doubts just not about the Oxford AZN one but all Covid-19 vaccines.
    I take it they’ve abandoned the idea of AZ for secondary school children?
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    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    Yup.

    My father says the Oxford AstraZeneca is the new MMR, i.e. the most calls/texts he receives from friends is them asking 'is it safe?' and it just isn't the vaccine hesitant groups asking.

    He's worried that if it is decided that kids need to receive a Covid-19 vaccine then the uptake is going to be significantly lower as parents have doubts just not about the Oxford AZN one but all Covid-19 vaccines.
    I take it they’ve abandoned the idea of AZ for secondary school children?
    Pass, he just jabs people.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.
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    Artist said:

    No other pollster has the Greens above their usual 5%, but even if they were on 8%, Labour must not waver prioritising targeting Tory voters this term, there is no other viable strategy. If they lose the next election it's far, far more likely to be because they haven't won over enough Tory voters than because they've bled too many from the left.

    Maybe the question is have they won over any conservative voters
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    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Bear in mind that Survation uses UK data , so the equivalent GB figures would be Con 44% Lab 36%.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    You mean *both* the Labour voters in Totnes are now backing the Greens?
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Leon said:



    What a ridiculous hypothetical. America is rich, China isn’t, yet.

    Would you rather live in Detroit or Singapore? That’s a more interesting and telling question. Fifty years ago, Detroit, for sure. Now no one would give that answer

    Ditto Pittsburgh v Taipei, or Cleveland v Seoul

    Pittsburgh often places high in lists of the nation's most liveable cities. After placing fourth and first in the first two editions of Places Rated Almanac, Pittsburgh finished first in 1985, third in 1989, fifth in 1993, 14th in 1997, and 12th in 2000, before reclaiming the number one spot in 2007. The survey's primary author, David Savageau, has noted Pittsburgh is the only city to finish in the top 20 of every edition.

    In 2005, 2009, and 2011, Pittsburgh was ranked as the most liveable city in the United States by The Economist and, in those years, between the 26th- and 29th-most liveable city worldwide. Pittsburgh ranked No. 28 in the book Cities Ranked and Rated (2004) by Bert Sperling and Peter Sander.

    In 2010, Forbes and Yahoo! ranked Pittsburgh as the most liveable city in the United States.

    ...

    Liveability rankings typically consider factors such as cost of living, crime, and cultural opportunities. Pittsburgh has a low cost of living compared to other northeastern U.S. cities. According to the Federal Housing Board, the average price for a 3- to 4-bedroom, 2-bath family home in Pittsburgh for 2004 is $162,000, well below the national average of $264,540. Average 2010 rent for all bedrooms in Pittsburgh was $789. This compares to the nationwide average of $1,087. Pittsburgh has five city parks and several parks managed by the Nature Conservancy. The largest, Frick Park, provides 664 acres (269 ha) of woodland park with extensive hiking and biking trails throughout steep valleys and wooded slopes. Birding enthusiasts love to visit the Clayton Hill area of Frick Park, where well over 100 species of birds have been recorded.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh#Livability

    Perhaps not the things that a flint knapper from Camden Town might be looking for but it suits many people.

    And you can find similar in the UK:

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/04/03/the-truth-behind-the-tories-northern-strongholds
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    rpjs said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    CatMan said:

    "Pregnant women in UK given green light to have Covid jab"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/16/pregnant-women-offered-covid-vaccine-uk

    Wise move to not give them the Oxford vaccine.
    Pfizer or Moderna I assume - high risk of thrombosis whilst pregnant as it is
    BBC news piece said it’s because the Americans have used these vaccines on pregnant women without any problems. Very good of them to act as a test bed for everyone else!
    My boss, who lives over the river in New Jersey, is expecting and has just had her first dose of Pfizer. She had told me she was unsure about getting vaccinated while pregnant but has decided the benefits outweigh the risks.
    Being pregnant seems to be quite a risk factor. We had 3 perinatal cases on ICU in Leicester at one point.

    It's all about balancing risks.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    At the rate things are going, Labour won't be nearly strong enough to stand comparison with the mighty Boudicca. It'll be more like the Battle of the M'boto Gorge than the Battle of Watling Street.

    But there's still time, of course, for things to get better.

    Or worse.

    In any event I don’t think Labour want to be associated with riots and arson in London
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    LeonLeon Posts: 46,745
    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Three years is a long time in politics, a very long time. Nonetheless, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that it's not long enough for Sir Keir to turn things round. He's dull as ditchwater, he's an awful speaker, he doesn't seem to have any coherent position on anything, and Labour is starting from a very bad position electorally, organisationally, and in terms of public perception following the Corbyn years.

    Even all that might not be irretrievable if it weren't for the fact that his shadow cabinet is even worse. At least one can envisage Starmer as PM without difficulty, but even Labour party members don't seem to think much of the Shadow Chancellor, Shadow Health Sec or Shadow Home Sec, if indeed they've noticed them at all.

    It's a hell of a lot to turn round, and as things stand he seems to be losing ground, not gaining it.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Leon said:



    What a ridiculous hypothetical. America is rich, China isn’t, yet.

    Would you rather live in Detroit or Singapore? That’s a more interesting and telling question. Fifty years ago, Detroit, for sure. Now no one would give that answer

    Ditto Pittsburgh v Taipei, or Cleveland v Seoul

    Pittsburgh often places high in lists of the nation's most liveable cities. After placing fourth and first in the first two editions of Places Rated Almanac, Pittsburgh finished first in 1985, third in 1989, fifth in 1993, 14th in 1997, and 12th in 2000, before reclaiming the number one spot in 2007. The survey's primary author, David Savageau, has noted Pittsburgh is the only city to finish in the top 20 of every edition.

    In 2005, 2009, and 2011, Pittsburgh was ranked as the most liveable city in the United States by The Economist and, in those years, between the 26th- and 29th-most liveable city worldwide. Pittsburgh ranked No. 28 in the book Cities Ranked and Rated (2004) by Bert Sperling and Peter Sander.

    In 2010, Forbes and Yahoo! ranked Pittsburgh as the most liveable city in the United States.

    ...

    Liveability rankings typically consider factors such as cost of living, crime, and cultural opportunities. Pittsburgh has a low cost of living compared to other northeastern U.S. cities. According to the Federal Housing Board, the average price for a 3- to 4-bedroom, 2-bath family home in Pittsburgh for 2004 is $162,000, well below the national average of $264,540. Average 2010 rent for all bedrooms in Pittsburgh was $789. This compares to the nationwide average of $1,087. Pittsburgh has five city parks and several parks managed by the Nature Conservancy. The largest, Frick Park, provides 664 acres (269 ha) of woodland park with extensive hiking and biking trails throughout steep valleys and wooded slopes. Birding enthusiasts love to visit the Clayton Hill area of Frick Park, where well over 100 species of birds have been recorded.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh#Livability

    Perhaps not the things that a flint knapper from Camden Town might be looking for but it suits many people.

    And you can find similar in the UK:

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/04/03/the-truth-behind-the-tories-northern-strongholds
    Has there ever been a flint-knapper from Camden Town?

    It seems unpromising flint territory. and knapping flint smacks of work.
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    Leon said:

    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH

    I was bored of lockdown in April 2020.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,200

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    Which one? Survation? :lol:
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,442
    Leon said:

    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH

    Looking at the data, the end of lockdown ought to be brought forward a bit from 21st June. But I doubt Johnson will do it.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:



    What a ridiculous hypothetical. America is rich, China isn’t, yet.

    Would you rather live in Detroit or Singapore? That’s a more interesting and telling question. Fifty years ago, Detroit, for sure. Now no one would give that answer

    Ditto Pittsburgh v Taipei, or Cleveland v Seoul

    Pittsburgh often places high in lists of the nation's most liveable cities. After placing fourth and first in the first two editions of Places Rated Almanac, Pittsburgh finished first in 1985, third in 1989, fifth in 1993, 14th in 1997, and 12th in 2000, before reclaiming the number one spot in 2007. The survey's primary author, David Savageau, has noted Pittsburgh is the only city to finish in the top 20 of every edition.

    In 2005, 2009, and 2011, Pittsburgh was ranked as the most liveable city in the United States by The Economist and, in those years, between the 26th- and 29th-most liveable city worldwide. Pittsburgh ranked No. 28 in the book Cities Ranked and Rated (2004) by Bert Sperling and Peter Sander.

    In 2010, Forbes and Yahoo! ranked Pittsburgh as the most liveable city in the United States.

    ...

    Liveability rankings typically consider factors such as cost of living, crime, and cultural opportunities. Pittsburgh has a low cost of living compared to other northeastern U.S. cities. According to the Federal Housing Board, the average price for a 3- to 4-bedroom, 2-bath family home in Pittsburgh for 2004 is $162,000, well below the national average of $264,540. Average 2010 rent for all bedrooms in Pittsburgh was $789. This compares to the nationwide average of $1,087. Pittsburgh has five city parks and several parks managed by the Nature Conservancy. The largest, Frick Park, provides 664 acres (269 ha) of woodland park with extensive hiking and biking trails throughout steep valleys and wooded slopes. Birding enthusiasts love to visit the Clayton Hill area of Frick Park, where well over 100 species of birds have been recorded.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh#Livability

    Perhaps not the things that a flint knapper from Camden Town might be looking for but it suits many people.

    And you can find similar in the UK:

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/04/03/the-truth-behind-the-tories-northern-strongholds
    Has there ever been a flint-knapper from Camden Town?

    It seems unpromising flint territory. and knapping flint smacks of work.
    They are artisan flints.

    So perhaps its low production but sold at very high prices to insecure nouveaux.

    Alternatively its some sort of money laundering scam.
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    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    But the FTPA hasn't been repealed yet and a 2023 election risks the boundary changes not being enacted, which are expected to be favourable to the Tories.
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,489
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:



    What a ridiculous hypothetical. America is rich, China isn’t, yet.

    Would you rather live in Detroit or Singapore? That’s a more interesting and telling question. Fifty years ago, Detroit, for sure. Now no one would give that answer

    Ditto Pittsburgh v Taipei, or Cleveland v Seoul

    Pittsburgh often places high in lists of the nation's most liveable cities. After placing fourth and first in the first two editions of Places Rated Almanac, Pittsburgh finished first in 1985, third in 1989, fifth in 1993, 14th in 1997, and 12th in 2000, before reclaiming the number one spot in 2007. The survey's primary author, David Savageau, has noted Pittsburgh is the only city to finish in the top 20 of every edition.

    In 2005, 2009, and 2011, Pittsburgh was ranked as the most liveable city in the United States by The Economist and, in those years, between the 26th- and 29th-most liveable city worldwide. Pittsburgh ranked No. 28 in the book Cities Ranked and Rated (2004) by Bert Sperling and Peter Sander.

    In 2010, Forbes and Yahoo! ranked Pittsburgh as the most liveable city in the United States.

    ...

    Liveability rankings typically consider factors such as cost of living, crime, and cultural opportunities. Pittsburgh has a low cost of living compared to other northeastern U.S. cities. According to the Federal Housing Board, the average price for a 3- to 4-bedroom, 2-bath family home in Pittsburgh for 2004 is $162,000, well below the national average of $264,540. Average 2010 rent for all bedrooms in Pittsburgh was $789. This compares to the nationwide average of $1,087. Pittsburgh has five city parks and several parks managed by the Nature Conservancy. The largest, Frick Park, provides 664 acres (269 ha) of woodland park with extensive hiking and biking trails throughout steep valleys and wooded slopes. Birding enthusiasts love to visit the Clayton Hill area of Frick Park, where well over 100 species of birds have been recorded.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh#Livability

    Perhaps not the things that a flint knapper from Camden Town might be looking for but it suits many people.

    And you can find similar in the UK:

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/04/03/the-truth-behind-the-tories-northern-strongholds
    Has there ever been a flint-knapper from Camden Town?

    It seems unpromising flint territory. and knapping flint smacks of work.
    Punters and other aficionados of Pennsylvania politics should note, that there is a WORLD of difference these days between the City of Pittsburgh and suburbs on one hand, and the rest of western PA on the other.

    Pittsburgh has left steel and smoke behind, and has embraced technology & medical services. Outside of the city & its immediate environs, it's one big rust belt of small cities interspersed among farms, woods & hills. A few bright spots, relatively, but essentially two different worlds.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    Are you suggesting serious seepage from Labour to Greens in Totnes ?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,442

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Although that doesn't always work. For instance in 2015 the Tories unexpectedly won a majority when the shares were Con 38%, Lab 31%.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
    It would be good to get those thoughts because the logic of share works for both.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Three years is a long time in politics, a very long time. Nonetheless, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that it's not long enough for Sir Keir to turn things round. He's dull as ditchwater, he's an awful speaker, he doesn't seem to have any coherent position on anything, and Labour is starting from a very bad position electorally, organisationally, and in terms of public perception following the Corbyn years.

    Even all that might not be irretrievable if it weren't for the fact that his shadow cabinet is even worse. At least one can envisage Starmer as PM without difficulty, but even Labour party members don't seem to think much of the Shadow Chancellor, Shadow Health Sec or Shadow Home Sec, if indeed they've noticed them at all.

    It's a hell of a lot to turn round, and as things stand he seems to be losing ground, not gaining it.

    Labour are in awful trouble. They simply don't have the backbench resources the Tories do.

    Their best people (Benn, Mrs EdB, Cruddas, etc) have rather stepped aside - too scarred by the Corbyn experience. Their current people are very wishy-washy, and they have a whole load of colleagues who frankly are more hostile than the Tories.

    When I'm seriously considering whether Lammy is a value bet for next leader then I think it tells you all you need to know. (I will say of Lammy that he's much improved, and no I haven't backed him)
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    Ah yes, the nation's bell-weather.

    75% Conservative vote in every street - must be getting boring.

    There's a by-election in East Han Central - perhaps you can help the local Tories find their vote as they're not having any joy.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.

    Yes that's a worry. The coalition they put together to Get Brexit Done might prove solid enough to Get More Tory Landslides Done.
    Yep. IF the Tories can hold 42% they win. Regardless of SKS doing owt or nowt. 2017 showed that.
    Unless and until that starts to fracture, all talk of potential other Labour leaders is moot.
    As @Black_Rook astutely observes there just aren't the voters to get Labour in with the Tories that high.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079

    Three years is a long time in politics, a very long time. Nonetheless, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that it's not long enough for Sir Keir to turn things round. He's dull as ditchwater, he's an awful speaker, he doesn't seem to have any coherent position on anything, and Labour is starting from a very bad position electorally, organisationally, and in terms of public perception following the Corbyn years.

    Even all that might not be irretrievable if it weren't for the fact that his shadow cabinet is even worse. At least one can envisage Starmer as PM without difficulty, but even Labour party members don't seem to think much of the Shadow Chancellor, Shadow Health Sec or Shadow Home Sec, if indeed they've noticed them at all.

    It's a hell of a lot to turn round, and as things stand he seems to be losing ground, not gaining it.

    He's dull, an awful communicator, has no ideas, yet you can "easily envisage him as Prime Minister" ??

    Talk about your low bars!
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.

    Yes that's a worry. The coalition they put together to Get Brexit Done might prove solid enough to Get More Tory Landslides Done.
    It's all about the economy. Does it crash before or after the next election? It is possible Johnson sanctions enough magic money tree economics between now and then for re-election. After that ...
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    ...
  • Options

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
    It would be good to get those thoughts because the logic of share works for both.
    It's all about context 37% in 2015 wins the Tories a majority, in 2017 42.4% doesn't win the Tories a majority, you need to look at the other side.

    But specifically on leader ratings the net score is important because it contextualises things, and it also tells you just how unpopular someone is.

    Take 2015, Farage's absolute positives were similar to the leaders of other third parties, how his net score wasn't because he was so unpopular, it is the reason why say Kennedy in 2001 (absolute rating 35%, net 15%) ended up with a lot more MPs than Farage in 2015, (absolute 31%, net minus 25%).

    The Lib Dems/Kennedy net scores showed they were very tactical voting friendly, Farage's net scores showed he wasn't going to get any tactical votes.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    stodge said:

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    Ah yes, the nation's bell-weather.

    75% Conservative vote in every street - must be getting boring.

    There's a by-election in East Han Central - perhaps you can help the local Tories find their vote as they're not having any joy.
    Don't blame me if my reporting back from the front proves painful to the LibDems. Our door-knocking in 2019 got our vote to within 0.2%. We know our shit. And I was happy to share with the punters here (if perhaps not to the liking of the Dr Sarah Wollaston rampers).

    I presume you meant East Ham Central.

    Oh and it's bellwhether.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435

    From the doorsteps of Totnes, it doesn't look like an outlier.....

    LibDems surging by 33%?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,359
    Evening all.
    A day's time travel for the Cookie family today. Forwards or backwards wasn't 100% clear- but we have had a FAMILY DAY OUT which wasn't a walk: a visit to a low-watt family theme park in Cheshire. Hundreds of smiling faces and the only face masks in sight were worn by staff. A few polite notices suggesting you give each other space, the odd discreet hand sanitiser - but no aggressive black and yellow tape. And no-one treating each other like plague-carriers. (I did see one family arrive, all facemasked up in their car; I noticed them later, gacemasks all discarded.) Made me think we will put this sorry episode behind us quicker than I had thought.
    Also: the roads were busier than Ihave seen them for over a year.
    Also: a trip into Sale in the evening, which was also bustling: outside spaces thronging with eaters and drinkers. All slightly misleading of course: the insides were dutifully empty - but again, shows the appetite for a restoration of normality.
    Another bit of time travel too: a quick trip to the nearest shop in No Man's Heath, for some calpol for my youngest. No Man's Heath is a tiny hamlet, but it is still hard to find its shop, which is down a little residential cul-de-sac. The shop was full of unappetising tinned food and didn't take credit cards or do contactless payment. Still, it did sell my calpol and a tin of ribena.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    If we give children AZ, could we give them a smaller dose? It’s a very powerful vaccine. Is giving fit and healthy 11 year olds the same dose as 95 year olds the right strategy?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    Too many police officers don’t have a fecking clue. I see the ones who closed that Good Friday service have apologised after they realised they’d broken the law.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,287
    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Floater, sorry to hear that. Sounds heavy-handed jobsworth nonsense from the police. Hope your son can get it straightened out.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748
    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    That sounds bizarre. Isn’t serving outside the only way he is allowed to trade?
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    @ZackBornstein: If your country looks like this, you don’t need to worry about the J&J blood clots



    https://twitter.com/ZackBornstein/status/1383126910041878532
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    If we give children AZ, could we give them a smaller dose? It’s a very powerful vaccine. Is giving fit and healthy 11 year olds the same dose as 95 year olds the right strategy?

    I think my question would be, if other vaccines are available why give them AZ if there is a risk involved in the latter?

    Which is why (for example) the risk vector for under 30s now we have Moderna is different from that for over 50s two months ago.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    Good in what sense?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Artist said:

    No other pollster has the Greens above their usual 5%, but even if they were on 8%, Labour must not waver prioritising targeting Tory voters this term, there is no other viable strategy. If they lose the next election it's far, far more likely to be because they haven't won over enough Tory voters than because they've bled too many from the left.

    Most of those Greens will go Labour in a GE, particularly in the marginals, whatever they say now.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Talking of outliers did anyone else notice that the SNP were down to 3% in the Survation poll linked to on the last thread? As best as I could read their tables this seemed to equiperate to 29%. 5% nationally is pretty normal for the SNP, that poll was an outlier of an outlier. All on a small subsample of course.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Survation and Yougov both give the same Tory and LD voteshares, the difference is the Green vote with Yougov is double what it is with Survation at Labour's expense.

    I suspect Survation is as usual closer to the reality
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    If they are enforcing the law, that is good.

    If they are trying to enforce the law, that is good.

    If they are breaking the law to feel important, that is not good.

    In that case, we might as well farm law enforcement out to the Mafia, who would probably do a better job. After all, to cut crime, they just have to do less work.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    Good in what sense?
    Good in the sense that they re the police and that there are infringements of the current regulations.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    That sounds bizarre. Isn’t serving outside the only way he is allowed to trade?
    Exactly
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040

    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.

    Johnson smashed the cosy concensus in June 2019. He is the new post-Blairite regime.

    P.S. it is unusual to see the words "Boris" and "worker" in the same sentence.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    I'm struggling to see a good in this tbh
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    ydoethur said:

    If we give children AZ, could we give them a smaller dose? It’s a very powerful vaccine. Is giving fit and healthy 11 year olds the same dose as 95 year olds the right strategy?

    I think my question would be, if other vaccines are available why give them AZ if there is a risk involved in the latter?

    Which is why (for example) the risk vector for under 30s now we have Moderna is different from that for over 50s two months ago.
    Presumably other vaccines also generate a strong immune response in the young, so I guess my question should apply to all vaccines. If we are going to vaccinate children, should it be with a smaller dose?
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH

    Looking at the data, the end of lockdown ought to be brought forward a bit from 21st June. But I doubt Johnson will do it.
    Though if the timetable is followed then many of the most tedious measures will be scrapped on May 17th. It will certainly be an almighty relief to be rid of the prohibition on hotels opening and overnight home stays: visits to parents haven't happened since last September and we're eager to go.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH

    Looking at the data, the end of lockdown ought to be brought forward a bit from 21st June. But I doubt Johnson will do it.
    From personal experience (anecdotally) lots of people are already doing 17th May stuff now, and openly admitting to it, particularly where the parents have both been fully vaccinated.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    Floater said:

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    I'm struggling to see a good in this tbh
    Indeed. A very strange comment from
    @Opinium
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    New German poll has the CDU/CSU up to 38% if CSU leader Soder is their chancellor candidate with the SPD on 19%, the Greens on 16%, the AfD on 11% and the FDP on 8%.

    With CDU leader Laschet however the CDU/CSU are only on 27% with the SPD on 23%, the Greens on 20%, the AfD on 11% and the FDP on 10%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1383102918463778822?s=20
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    GIN1138 said:

    "The only thing in Starmer’s favour is that we’re a little over three years away from the scheduled date of the next general election, that gives him time to turn things around."

    Boris won't wait until the last minutes though. He'll do a Maggie and call the election in the fourth year (2023) IMO.

    To take advantage of new boundaries he would have to wait until Autumn 2023.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2021

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
    It would be good to get those thoughts because the logic of share works for both.
    It's all about context 37% in 2015 wins the Tories a majority, in 2017 42.4% doesn't win the Tories a majority, you need to look at the other side.

    But specifically on leader ratings the net score is important because it contextualises things, and it also tells you just how unpopular someone is.

    Take 2015, Farage's absolute positives were similar to the leaders of other third parties, how his net score wasn't because he was so unpopular, it is the reason why say Kennedy in 2001 (absolute rating 35%, net 15%) ended up with a lot more MPs than Farage in 2015, (absolute 31%, net minus 25%).

    The Lib Dems/Kennedy net scores showed they were very tactical voting friendly, Farage's net scores showed he wasn't going to get any tactical votes.
    I don't think that's really a good comparison, 2001 the Lib Dems gained a grand total of 6 MPs not dozens of them. They were starting from a completely different bar than UKIP were.

    Afterall if that's what we're going off then in 1987 General Election Kinnock had net -30%, Steel +15%, Owen +12
    Or 1983 Foot had -39%, Steel +26%

    Kinnock ended up with a lot more MPs than Steel and Owen.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    Good in what sense?
    Good in the sense that they re the police and that there are infringements of the current regulations.
    You do not need a takeaway license as I understand it - so what law has he breached?

    The police said it was for not having a takeaway license - this is why I have asked him to get them to tell him exactly which law he has broken
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,420

    dixiedean said:

    The consistent 43% is the most significant.
    That is plenty to win re-election, and it seems pretty sticky. Lowest Tory share in any poll since January is 39%, suggesting it is about right as a ballpark figure.

    If the Tories can hold their voter coalition together, and consequently maintain a floor of 40%, then - given that the SNP show no sign of weakening, and the Lib Dems seem able to command 8% even under the most dire circumstances - it will be impossible for Labour to get anywhere close to winning a General Election. The best they can possibly do is scrape in as a minority, the 2017 result shows how difficult even that might be to achieve, and if it looks even remotely plausible then the Conservatives can simply wheel out the Nicola-Sturgeon-as-puppeteer memes again, probably to considerable effect amongst the majority of voters in provincial England that loathe Scottish Nationalism.

    The political landscape continues to evolve not necessarily to Keir Starmer's advantage.
    Another reason why Boris will veto IndyRef2, of course. The threat of the SNP having a say in the governance of the UK is very useful to the Conservatives.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Bit bored of lockdown now. TBH

    Looking at the data, the end of lockdown ought to be brought forward a bit from 21st June. But I doubt Johnson will do it.
    Though if the timetable is followed then many of the most tedious measures will be scrapped on May 17th. It will certainly be an almighty relief to be rid of the prohibition on hotels opening and overnight home stays: visits to parents haven't happened since last September and we're eager to go.
    Yes, there’s not much difference between 17 May and 21 June in practical terms. clubbing, wedding, festivals are all very important but don’t massively affect day to day lives.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.

    The local election results will give a better idea.

    Estimated national equivalent shares for the opposition party in earlier years:

    1980 42% Lab
    1981 41%
    1982 29%
    1983 36%
    1984 37%
    1985 39%
    1986 37%
    1987 32%
    1988 38%
    1989 42%
    1990 44%
    1991 38%
    1992 30%
    1993 39%
    1994 40%
    1995 47%
    1996 43%
    1998 31% Con
    1999 34%
    2000 38%
    2002 34%
    2003 35%
    2004 37%
    2006 39%
    2007 40%
    2008 43%
    2009 35%
    2011 37% Lab
    2012 39%
    2013 29%
    2014 31%
    2016 33%
    2017 28%
    2018 36%
    2019 31%
  • Options

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
    It would be good to get those thoughts because the logic of share works for both.
    It's all about context 37% in 2015 wins the Tories a majority, in 2017 42.4% doesn't win the Tories a majority, you need to look at the other side.

    But specifically on leader ratings the net score is important because it contextualises things, and it also tells you just how unpopular someone is.

    Take 2015, Farage's absolute positives were similar to the leaders of other third parties, how his net score wasn't because he was so unpopular, it is the reason why say Kennedy in 2001 (absolute rating 35%, net 15%) ended up with a lot more MPs than Farage in 2015, (absolute 31%, net minus 25%).

    The Lib Dems/Kennedy net scores showed they were very tactical voting friendly, Farage's net scores showed he wasn't going to get any tactical votes.
    I don't think that's really a good comparison, 2001 the Lib Dems gained a grand total of 6 MPs not dozens of them. They were starting from a completely different bar than UKIP were.

    Afterall if that's what we're going off then in 1987 General Election Kinnock had net -30%, Steel +15%, Owen +12

    Kinnock ended up with a lot more MPs than Steel and Owen.
    I just gave one example, there's plenty more.

    I just cited just one third party example.

    When you see the rest of it then you'll agree with me.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    Good in what sense?
    Good in the sense that they re the police and that there are infringements of the current regulations.
    Infringements in what respect? He sounds like he is running his business in the only way he can. Why should the police be bothering him?
  • Options

    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.

    It has been said by several posters that Boris's government is a very different one to May's and Cameron's and in a way Boris has reinvented the party, almost as if it is not a continuation of a decade of conservative governments

    I do believe there is some truth in this analysis
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    HYUFD said:

    Survation and Yougov both give the same Tory and LD voteshares, the difference is the Green vote with Yougov is double what it is with Survation at Labour's expense.

    I suspect Survation is as usual closer to the reality

    The Green surge is probably the left-wing Twitterati signalling that they're not happy that Starmer isn't Corbyn.
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    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.

    Johnson smashed the cosy concensus in June 2019. He is the new post-Blairite regime.

    P.S. it is unusual to see the words "Boris" and "worker" in the same sentence.
    Stick a ‘sex’ in there and see how that plays..
    I assumed it was an autocorrect where it turned a six letter word beginning with w and ending in ker into worker.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    edited April 2021

    Artist said:

    No other pollster has the Greens above their usual 5%, but even if they were on 8%, Labour must not waver prioritising targeting Tory voters this term, there is no other viable strategy. If they lose the next election it's far, far more likely to be because they haven't won over enough Tory voters than because they've bled too many from the left.

    Most of those Greens will go Labour in a GE, particularly in the marginals, whatever they say now.
    The Green vote share in the seats of in NW Durham, Bury North, +South, Haywood and Middleton, Gedling, High Peak, Delyn and Stroud in 2019 were all larger than the Tory majority. That’s just the ones I could be bothered to check.

    And in some of those seats, the candidates had close Green links (David Drew in Stroud, for example, sat as an independent on the district council and worked with the Greens not Labour).

    We cannot assume that people will vote tactically just because it seems to others it’s the rational thing to do.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    I'm struggling to see a good in this tbh
    Indeed. A very strange comment from
    @Opinium
    I just realised this was the poster who called me a liar just the other day for linking to a story clearly viewable on multiple MSM sites.

    Shrugs shoulders
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Has any opposition, even in an 'outlier', polled this badly against a government in modern British political history? Perhaps the Tories in the immediate aftermath of Tone's 1997 landslide. But the Tories have now ruled for a decade. All Labour can hope for is that Covid has someone shattered polling methodology, and things really aren't this bad. The alternative is that Boris is a miracle worker.

    Yes - the first 18 months of the 1987 Parliament saw some stonking Tory leads - indeed Labour failed to take the lead at all until May 1989. Under Starmer Labour has already bettered that with quite a few poll leads in the Autumn of 2020. I expect to see Labour ahead again by the end of 2021.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258
    Floater said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Floater said:

    Sons bar has been closed by police for selling alcohol outside - at tables socially distanced - they argue that he heeds a takeaway license.

    As far as I can see he does not need one and have advised him to have them tell him exactly what law he is breaching

    No doubt a pain for him, but the fact the police are trying is good.
    Good in what sense?
    Good in the sense that they re the police and that there are infringements of the current regulations.
    You do not need a takeaway license as I understand it - so what law has he breached?

    The police said it was for not having a takeaway license - this is why I have asked him to get them to tell him exactly which law he has broken
    Sometimes the police just want a scalp.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    "One of the earliest lessons I learned on PB from the great Sir Bob Worcester was to not focus on the leads but the shares"

    100% agreed.

    Hope this is remembered next time we discuss leadership approval.

    Sir Bob said to focus on the net scores when it comes to leader ratings.

    I'm hoping to get his thoughts for a piece I'm doing in the next couple of months.
    It would be good to get those thoughts because the logic of share works for both.
    It's all about context 37% in 2015 wins the Tories a majority, in 2017 42.4% doesn't win the Tories a majority, you need to look at the other side.

    But specifically on leader ratings the net score is important because it contextualises things, and it also tells you just how unpopular someone is.

    Take 2015, Farage's absolute positives were similar to the leaders of other third parties, how his net score wasn't because he was so unpopular, it is the reason why say Kennedy in 2001 (absolute rating 35%, net 15%) ended up with a lot more MPs than Farage in 2015, (absolute 31%, net minus 25%).

    The Lib Dems/Kennedy net scores showed they were very tactical voting friendly, Farage's net scores showed he wasn't going to get any tactical votes.
    I don't think that's really a good comparison, 2001 the Lib Dems gained a grand total of 6 MPs not dozens of them. They were starting from a completely different bar than UKIP were.

    Afterall if that's what we're going off then in 1987 General Election Kinnock had net -30%, Steel +15%, Owen +12

    Kinnock ended up with a lot more MPs than Steel and Owen.
    I just gave one example, there's plenty more.

    I just cited just one third party example.

    When you see the rest of it then you'll agree with me.
    As I said, I'll be curious to see it.

    But people vote for a party not against it, so being deeply more unpopular certainly could be a factor but I'd rather be 20% more gross popular and 2% less net than the other way around.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079

    Artist said:

    No other pollster has the Greens above their usual 5%, but even if they were on 8%, Labour must not waver prioritising targeting Tory voters this term, there is no other viable strategy. If they lose the next election it's far, far more likely to be because they haven't won over enough Tory voters than because they've bled too many from the left.

    Maybe the question is have they won over any conservative voters
    I sense that you are wavering - so that's one. And you're surely not alone.
This discussion has been closed.