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My email from Boris suggests the Tory database is not as sophisticated as you might expect – politic

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  • https://twitter.com/JoeCatcheside/status/1380089848527257613

    Wait until Joe hears who Mrs Attlee voted for.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500
    Vinyl is far too Shoreditch hipster for me. Spotify is the way to be.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,642

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    Have you tried speaking to them?

    I had a Google Play subscription that got converted to a YouTube subscription (music and ad-free YouTube) but I needed to speak to them to get it sorted properly. There was an online chat I went to and it was all sorted rather quickly.
    Thanks. I might try that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,055
    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456
    Barnesian said:

    I got the same email from the Tories as Mike.

    I get frequent emails as a "supporter" from the Tories, Labour and Reform UK (as well as from the LibDems).

    It enables me to keep an eye on their activities and their latest "lines".

    I am beginning to feel that my email from my Bestie Boris was just a little less personal than I had assumed. I am so disappointed. The founding donor thing is a little bit weird. Did the Tories not have an election fund before?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 45,495

    The sophisticated database would be the doorknocking one. If Smithson were to receive repeated canvassing visits then that would indicate a lack of sophistication in the use or design of that database.

    I've never been canvassed by the Tories for an election, which is either indicative of the wards and seats in which I've lived, or indicates an impressive level of sophistication in being able to predict my response before doing so.

    Mike's in Bedford and you need to keep tabs on the vote in that closest of seats, to see who he is voting for this time. With no Corbyn for him to vote for, maybe they think his vote is up for grabs!
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,287

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    This is why Apple is the best.
    Can I recommend Amazon music? I subscribed a while back and it solves a few problems for me

    - access to almost all music including for wife and kids
    - my old collection of CDs - 90% of which are damaged or missing / borrowed / stolen - now mostly available and good condition
    - mostly don't buy CDs anymore.

    For £96 a year this seems reasonable to me.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,706
    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    That doesn't real stand up.

    The Welsh voted to leave.

    The Scots didn't, but if you look at Indy polls, there was an average 7% lead for No in the year after the referendum, compared with a 3% lead in the year before. At best it made no significant difference.

    And Northern Ireland - fine, maybe it caused problems for them, but we're better off without them.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500
    Also I’ve watched enough TV to know that you don’t discuss “favours” over electronic communication — you meet up for a coffee and ask in person. School boy error Mr Cameron.
  • Vinyl is far too Shoreditch hipster for me. Spotify is the way to be.

    Spotify all the way. With the Good Stuff recorded onto MiniDisc so that I have a hard copy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,000
    Charles said:

    eek said:

    Charles said:

    Good Morning everyone. Or such as up and about at almost 7am. Not entirely surprised that the N.Irelans situation is biting our PM on the bum.
    As was posted yesterday, Conservative short-term solutions in Ireland have a habit of doing that.

    That’s unbelievably unfair and partisan.

    Sunnyngdale and the AngloIrish Agreement worked well, and Major deserves a lot of credit for the GFA (although it was Blair who got it over the line).

    Stop trying to make political jibes from something that is so important.
    John Major left politics almost 20/24 years ago (depending on whether you think leaving was when he was no longer on the front line or no longer an MP).
    The AngloIrish Agreement was in 99 I think. If you read George Mitchell’s biography you’ll see how important Major was.
    Agree; perhaps surprisingly. And if something is a 'habit' one usually does it (or wears it!) Not necessarily every time.

    And, if I were you I'd 'save' your first line; you'll find it useful here. Quite often!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    I’ve worked with some pretty shady clients over the years. You’d be surprised who you sometimes see in the waiting room. Gupta of course anyone with a brain didn’t touch with a 10ft barge pole.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    This is why Apple is the best.
    Can I recommend Amazon music? I subscribed a while back and it solves a few problems for me

    - access to almost all music including for wife and kids
    - my old collection of CDs - 90% of which are damaged or missing / borrowed / stolen - now mostly available and good condition
    - mostly don't buy CDs anymore.

    For £96 a year this seems reasonable to me.

    Amazon Music, Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube Premium (or whatever its called), Tidal, etc are all the same.

    It all come down to which interface you like the best and which services your friends use.

    I use Spotify because all my friends use Spotify so its easy to share and collaborate on playlists and send links to each other.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    David Cameron is an idiot - you only have to look at his approach to the 2016 referendum to see that.

    Remember the biggest screw up he made then was negotiating our relationship before that referendum when the referendum should have been our existing relationship with the EU (as it was prior to January 2016) or something else.

    Something else would have won which would have allowed him to stay in power while negotiation something sane which may or may not have resulted in us leaving the EU.

    It's very hard to work out what the stupidest decision Cameron and Co made during 2015/16 as when you look back there are a large number of "Why did you think that was a good idea"
  • On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059
    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,706
    IanB2 said:

    The Guardian’s report of the same government briefing is more measured.

    What they are trying to do is give the impression things are being made easier for summer travel whilst in practice continuing to make it exceptionally difficult. No wonder the travel industry appears to be unhappy. It would be more honest to continue with a ban, rather than have so many costs and restrictions that in practice only those with a lot of spare money and time can go abroad.
    That has the feeling of trying to be too clever by half - I can't see it surviving as a policy when millions of families want to go on a summer holiday without pointlessly shelling out hundreds of pounds for tests that the government provides everyone who stays at home for free, especially when Boris wants everyone to get tested twice a week anyway. It's a typical Matt Hancock solution - deceitful, nanny state, not really based on any data, and will probably fall apart at the first serious test.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,863

    Scott_xP said:

    Another cartoon the fanbois will not like


    I doubt that such imagery will distress that portion of the electorate that both voted Leave and doesn't particularly care about Northern Ireland - i.e. most of them.

    I'm afraid that a lot of Unionists still haven't appreciated that Brexit isn't their real problem, it's that the British state itself has been fatally undermined by the total mess created by devolution. De jure the UK is still a unitary state; de facto it's neither that nor a fully-functional federation, but a wobbly, uneven, lop-sided confederacy, in which - unlike the vast majority of the world's nations - a right of secession is assumed. The result is that, with every passing year, the percentage of people within its borders who think of themselves as actually being British declines and the forces pulling it apart become that bit stronger.

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise. The cause is that the UK is now a horrible chimera of an institution, still with some of the attributes of a conventional sovereign state but in many respects rather like a small, crap European Union - with a central authority that nobody likes, where all the members increasingly dislike each other, and where there's a one-way ratchet not of "more powers" but "less powers" as the clock ticks balefully towards its inevitable collapse.

    As to whether the reality of their doomed situation has yet to dawn on the Loyalist rioters in Belfast, and they therefore think that their nonsense might still get them somewhere, or it has and they're acting out of nihilistic despair, who can say? The important point to absorb is that most voters in England, especially those likely to support the Conservatives, don't care very much about Northern Ireland - and why should they? In Scotland, Northern Ireland, and increasingly in Wales as well (where Labour is a nationalistic force that now offers pro-independence candidates to the electorate,) the political scene is full of angry nationalists who like nothing about England except its money. For them, the devolved parliaments represent the sole legitimate expression of the political will of their respective peoples; the British state is an imperial master to be defied and pulled down. The English, meanwhile, who don't get to have a parliament, are meant to sit there, disregard their own interests and hand over fat bribes every year in order to prevent the whole thing collapsing. It's small wonder that this doesn't work very well.
    Poor little England, abused, exploited and without the balls to do anything about it. When will the agony end?!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
  • ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    This is why Apple is the best.
    Can I recommend Amazon music? I subscribed a while back and it solves a few problems for me

    - access to almost all music including for wife and kids
    - my old collection of CDs - 90% of which are damaged or missing / borrowed / stolen - now mostly available and good condition
    - mostly don't buy CDs anymore.

    For £96 a year this seems reasonable to me.

    I'm too buried in the Apple ecosystem and then there's also the fact that thanks to EE I get Apple Music free with my contract.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059
    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,287
    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
  • DavidL said:

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
    Which reminds me, I'm spending three days in Aberdeen in the summer, any decent places to visit, also any decent restaurants.

    My previous trips were limited to the Malmaison.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 17,941

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    You are seriously complaining because Scott has failed to insult the Welsh?
    It is truly amazing that having had centuries of practice, the English seem to have forgotten the ability to slag off the Welsh in their hour of need.

    Apart from when we brutally hammer them to pieces on the rugby pitch, of course.
    Don't remind me of the rugby. Didn't know there were so many Welsh refs.
    Well, given we produce so many awesome players with a thorough understanding of the game, it’s not surprising they make the best refs as well :smile:
    The blessed Max Boyce had a song about charity contributions, which included something about contributing to the 'Sunshine Home in Dublin for blind Irish referees'. Written after one particular egregious incident.
    Paul Ringer's sending off, which led to Billy Beaumont's Grand Slam. On the current try scoring system our two unconverted tries would have beaten the three English penalties.
    Not that you're still bitter or anything!
    It was fortnight before that I realise, as a teenager, that I despised the English press. Our magnificent victory against the French was undermined to bolster England, citing violent tactics from Ringer and Graham Price.(Ringer and Pricey??? Surely not.) Wales then lost heavily to Ireland and except for 1987, the 1980s were written off as a disaster.

    Bitter? Of course not.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059

    Also I’ve watched enough TV to know that you don’t discuss “favours” over electronic communication — you meet up for a coffee and ask in person. School boy error Mr Cameron.

    Covid and the initial Lockdown made that approach impossible. Also I suspect Sunak might have been avoiding diary appointments and phone calls given that he knew what it would be about.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,935
    Interesting report from Ireland here

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20210407-oireachtas-health-committee-launches-report-on-addressing-vitamin-d-deficiency-in-ireland/#:~:text=The Joint Committee on Health,established to address that deficiency

    Welcoming the publication of the report, Health Committee Chairman Seán Crowe TD said:“As we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic, international studies, and the experience of Finland in particular, show just how effective daily Vitamin D supplementation can be when it is implemented as part of an enhanced public health policy. This supplementation represents a safe, practical, and effective means of protecting human health.

    “The State needs to review preventative measures that might have led to fewer mortalities and lower morbidity. In that regard, the role of Vitamin D needs to be addressed as part of an enhanced public health policy to protect the population against respiratory infections and other illnesses. “


    Vitamin D will NOT cure severe Covid, and it's no substitute for a vaccine. But if you live in a cloudy northern european nation you're likely deficient. And it has definite benefits. I am adding 4,000 ITU to my daily regime.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 22,537
    edited April 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,780
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    The unfortunate fact is that many English don't give the slightest thought to And Wales that you reference three times in your two line post.

    Which maybe has something to do with Scott's "Little Englander" comment.
  • ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    You are seriously complaining because Scott has failed to insult the Welsh?
    It is truly amazing that having had centuries of practice, the English seem to have forgotten the ability to slag off the Welsh in their hour of need.

    Apart from when we brutally hammer them to pieces on the rugby pitch, of course.
    Don't remind me of the rugby. Didn't know there were so many Welsh refs.
    Well, given we produce so many awesome players with a thorough understanding of the game, it’s not surprising they make the best refs as well :smile:
    The blessed Max Boyce had a song about charity contributions, which included something about contributing to the 'Sunshine Home in Dublin for blind Irish referees'. Written after one particular egregious incident.
    Paul Ringer's sending off, which led to Billy Beaumont's Grand Slam. On the current try scoring system our two unconverted tries would have beaten the three English penalties.
    Not that you're still bitter or anything!
    It was fortnight before that I realise, as a teenager, that I despised the English press. Our magnificent victory against the French was undermined to bolster England, citing violent tactics from Ringer and Graham Price.(Ringer and Pricey??? Surely not.) Wales then lost heavily to Ireland and except for 1987, the 1980s were written off as a disaster.

    Bitter? Of course not.
    I thought the thing Welsh rugby fans were the most bitter about was the 2003 QF against England when England accidentally had 16 players on the pitch for a few seconds.

    But for that the Welsh think they would have won the 2003 coupe du monde.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,287

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    This is why Apple is the best.
    Can I recommend Amazon music? I subscribed a while back and it solves a few problems for me

    - access to almost all music including for wife and kids
    - my old collection of CDs - 90% of which are damaged or missing / borrowed / stolen - now mostly available and good condition
    - mostly don't buy CDs anymore.

    For £96 a year this seems reasonable to me.

    I'm too buried in the Apple ecosystem and then there's also the fact that thanks to EE I get Apple Music free with my contract.
    After losing my iPhone at redundancy last year I have moved to Android. Apple music was OK but not having had iPods or purchased lots of music on the platform, I was not tied in. The one thing I miss is the podcasts app, and the general slickness of Apple.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,863
    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    I got the same email from the Tories as Mike.

    I get frequent emails as a "supporter" from the Tories, Labour and Reform UK (as well as from the LibDems).

    It enables me to keep an eye on their activities and their latest "lines".

    I am beginning to feel that my email from my Bestie Boris was just a little less personal than I had assumed. I am so disappointed. The founding donor thing is a little bit weird. Did the Tories not have an election fund before?
    BJ spraying his charms around a bit too liberally, has this ever happened before?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.
    Ever stop to ask why people were discontent ?
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059
    edited April 2021

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, I keep on getting emails like this on an alarmingly regularly basis since I ceased to be a member.

    Apparently they also need my campaigning skills in the upcoming locals, mayorals. and police commissioner elections.

    I'm guessing the coffers are pretty low from having three general elections and a UK wide referendum in a little over four years.

    They obviously don’t read PB, or they would have offered you another referendum on AV :smile:

    More seriously, lack of funds seems to be quite the issue for all UK political parties at the moment. If rumours are to be believed, Labour have lost a big chunk of funding from Unite, while the SNP have had to draw on the £600,000 set aside for Sindy II to stay afloat (assuming that Wings’ implicit analysis that Sturgeon paid the money to the independent inquiry to be cleared is wrong).

    That will make campaigns a bit quieter going forward, and will surely accelerate the trend towards internet campaigning.
    One of the many reasons that Shaun Bailey is going to do so badly next month is that the Tory party effectively pulled funding for his campaign, and redeployed it elsewhere, to more winnable Mayoral elections.

    Even internet campaigns cost a lot of money, you need to place the ads in the right place, usually before YouTube videos.

    But even that is proving problematic with YouTube premium and the fact say Vodafone is offering free subscription to YouTube premium.

    Facebook is bricking it for several reasons, and have also jacked up their prices.

    I was told digital campaign costs have gone up 70% since 2015.
    Google has pissed me off. They pulled Google Play off my Android phone and all the music I'd paid, like, £200+ to download.

    They told me they'd transfer it all automatically to YouTube Music but did no such thing. So now that's all been permanently lost.

    And people wonder why I still like to buy CDs and DVDS.
    This is why Apple is the best.
    Can I recommend Amazon music? I subscribed a while back and it solves a few problems for me

    - access to almost all music including for wife and kids
    - my old collection of CDs - 90% of which are damaged or missing / borrowed / stolen - now mostly available and good condition
    - mostly don't buy CDs anymore.

    For £96 a year this seems reasonable to me.

    I'm too buried in the Apple ecosystem and then there's also the fact that thanks to EE I get Apple Music free with my contract.
    I suspect it's not free but "free" and that you are paying for it somewhere in the contract.

    I just pay £20 a month for Apple Family (its cheaper when you've got 3 other people all wanting to stream music) and 150gb of photos because someone doesn't bother to delete the bad ones.
  • DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,000
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Guardian’s report of the same government briefing is more measured.

    What they are trying to do is give the impression things are being made easier for summer travel whilst in practice continuing to make it exceptionally difficult. No wonder the travel industry appears to be unhappy. It would be more honest to continue with a ban, rather than have so many costs and restrictions that in practice only those with a lot of spare money and time can go abroad.
    That has the feeling of trying to be too clever by half - I can't see it surviving as a policy when millions of families want to go on a summer holiday without pointlessly shelling out hundreds of pounds for tests that the government provides everyone who stays at home for free, especially when Boris wants everyone to get tested twice a week anyway. It's a typical Matt Hancock solution - deceitful, nanny state, not really based on any data, and will probably fall apart at the first serious test.
    There may be a cheaper test on the way.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989
    The general view from most local Tory parties at the moment is that supporters should donate to their local elections fund given the local elections are just a month away rather than to a new fund for a general election at least 3 years away
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    It’s a perfect anecdote to represent the chumocracy he presided over. Cant see the bad in people because they went to Oxford so must be a good sort.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited April 2021
    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The Government aren't the ones responding, the FA are - and its to UEFA not FIFA.

    And the FA definitely care what UEFA think.

    The FA quite reasonably want to make commitments they know they can honour. Plus you're missing the point of these pledges, UEFA are trying to decide which countries/stadia hold onto their planned games and which lose them and get them rescheduled. The FA have pledged well above what they need to in order to keep their games (and pick up any lost elsewhere) while also pledging what they know they can commit to.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,364

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    Should soon be able to change their name to the United Kingdom Cricket Board.
    Or the Cricketing Union of National Teams.

    The initials would describe them very well...
    Are you sure you don’t have any Australian blood?
    Quite sure. I want England to win, and therefore I hate the ECB.
    Any organisation which could some up with the idea for The Hundred deserves contempt!
    I'm anti The Hundred but my friends who work at LCCC say normal cricket fans aren't the target market.

    The Hundred is designed to bring in people who aren't cricket fans, to get them hooked.
    They already had a great way of doing that - T20. Not least because I can go with all three daughters for a combined cost for the four of us of £11.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,189
    HYUFD said:

    The general view from most local Tory parties at the moment is that supporters should donate to their local elections fund given the local elections are just a month away rather than to a new fund for a general election at least 3 years away

    Local parties always prefer local donations. Then it is their money!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500
    moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    It’s a perfect anecdote to represent the chumocracy he presided over. Cant see the bad in people because they went to [redacted] so must be a good sort.
    Your post is now Civil Service compliant. You're welcome.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,780
    edited April 2021



    I doubt that such imagery will distress that portion of the electorate that both voted Leave and doesn't particularly care about Northern Ireland - i.e. most of them.

    I'm afraid that a lot of Unionists still haven't appreciated that Brexit isn't their real problem, it's that the British state itself has been fatally undermined by the total mess created by devolution. De jure the UK is still a unitary state; de facto it's neither that nor a fully-functional federation, but a wobbly, uneven, lop-sided confederacy, in which - unlike the vast majority of the world's nations - a right of secession is assumed. The result is that, with every passing year, the percentage of people within its borders who think of themselves as actually being British declines and the forces pulling it apart become that bit stronger.

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise. The cause is that the UK is now a horrible chimera of an institution, still with some of the attributes of a conventional sovereign state but in many respects rather like a small, crap European Union - with a central authority that nobody likes, where all the members increasingly dislike each other, and where there's a one-way ratchet not of "more powers" but "less powers" as the clock ticks balefully towards its inevitable collapse.

    As to whether the reality of their doomed situation has yet to dawn on the Loyalist rioters in Belfast, and they therefore think that their nonsense might still get them somewhere, or it has and they're acting out of nihilistic despair, who can say? The important point to absorb is that most voters in England, especially those likely to support the Conservatives, don't care very much about Northern Ireland - and why should they? In Scotland, Northern Ireland, and increasingly in Wales as well (where Labour is a nationalistic force that now offers pro-independence candidates to the electorate,) the political scene is full of angry nationalists who like nothing about England except its money. For them, the devolved parliaments represent the sole legitimate expression of the political will of their respective peoples; the British state is an imperial master to be defied and pulled down. The English, meanwhile, who don't get to have a parliament, are meant to sit there, disregard their own interests and hand over fat bribes every year in order to prevent the whole thing collapsing. It's small wonder that this doesn't work very well.

    This gets to the nub of the Brexit contradiction and deserves a proper response. Briefly, the contradiction will play out differently for people in England (And Wales!!!), Ireland and Scotland from what many thought and were hoping for. Partly because the "Brexit" moniker implies BRritain EXITing, when it is all actually about England.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,690
    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The football tournament starts just ten days earlier - would it really make that much difference to pull the June 21st step forward by ten days?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
    Which reminds me, I'm spending three days in Aberdeen in the summer, any decent places to visit, also any decent restaurants.

    My previous trips were limited to the Malmaison.
    Can't really help I'm afraid. Even before Covid there had been absolute carnage in the Aberdeen restaurant industry as the oil money dried up and many of the best places had closed. God knows what it will be like now. The Rustico used to be a nice Italian but whether it will have survived lockdown who can say?

    Aberdeen is a pale shadow of the place it used to be when hotel rooms were very hard to find because the oil companies would have block bookings just in case people came onshore unexpectedly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989
    edited April 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Another cartoon the fanbois will not like


    I doubt that such imagery will distress that portion of the electorate that both voted Leave and doesn't particularly care about Northern Ireland - i.e. most of them.

    I'm afraid that a lot of Unionists still haven't appreciated that Brexit isn't their real problem, it's that the British state itself has been fatally undermined by the total mess created by devolution. De jure the UK is still a unitary state; de facto it's neither that nor a fully-functional federation, but a wobbly, uneven, lop-sided confederacy, in which - unlike the vast majority of the world's nations - a right of secession is assumed. The result is that, with every passing year, the percentage of people within its borders who think of themselves as actually being British declines and the forces pulling it apart become that bit stronger.

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise. The cause is that the UK is now a horrible chimera of an institution, still with some of the attributes of a conventional sovereign state but in many respects rather like a small, crap European Union - with a central authority that nobody likes, where all the members increasingly dislike each other, and where there's a one-way ratchet not of "more powers" but "less powers" as the clock ticks balefully towards its inevitable collapse.

    As to whether the reality of their doomed situation has yet to dawn on the Loyalist rioters in Belfast, and they therefore think that their nonsense might still get them somewhere, or it has and they're acting out of nihilistic despair, who can say? The important point to absorb is that most voters in England, especially those likely to support the Conservatives, don't care very much about Northern Ireland - and why should they? In Scotland, Northern Ireland, and increasingly in Wales as well (where Labour is a nationalistic force that now offers pro-independence candidates to the electorate,) the political scene is full of angry nationalists who like nothing about England except its money. For them, the devolved parliaments represent the sole legitimate expression of the political will of their respective peoples; the British state is an imperial master to be defied and pulled down. The English, meanwhile, who don't get to have a parliament, are meant to sit there, disregard their own interests and hand over fat bribes every year in order to prevent the whole thing collapsing. It's small wonder that this doesn't work very well.
    Leave voters should care about Northern Ireland and the DUP in particular. After all if the DUP had not been in the Commons in 2017 to prop up the Tories there would have been a majority in the Commons for EUref2, EEA or the Customs Union at least combining Labour, the SNP, some LDs, the Greens, Plaid and anti Brexit Tories like Grieve and Soubry and Ken Clarke.

    Remember 276 MPs voted against staying in the Customs Union in early 2019 (including the 10 DUP) and 273 voted to stay in.

    Plus of course Wales voted Leave, London voted Remain
  • moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    It’s a perfect anecdote to represent the chumocracy he presided over. Cant see the bad in people because they went to Oxford so must be a good sort.
    I hate to shit on your theory, but Lex Greensill went to the Universities of Queensland and Manchester.

    He saw sense and avoided Oxford.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500

    moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    It’s a perfect anecdote to represent the chumocracy he presided over. Cant see the bad in people because they went to Oxford so must be a good sort.
    I hate to shit on your theory, but Lex Greensill went to the Universities of Queensland and Manchester.

    He saw sense and avoided Oxford.
    🤢 he sounds like a right pleb
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 34,571

    The sophisticated database would be the doorknocking one. If Smithson were to receive repeated canvassing visits then that would indicate a lack of sophistication in the use or design of that database.

    I've never been canvassed by the Tories for an election, which is either indicative of the wards and seats in which I've lived, or indicates an impressive level of sophistication in being able to predict my response before doing so.

    I was canvassed by the local Tory candidate for our council election the other day.

    I still get emails from Labour too, perhaps because of being a £3 "supporter" in 2015.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The Government aren't the ones responding, the FA are - and its to UEFA not FIFA.

    And the FA definitely care what UEFA think.

    The FA quite reasonably want to make commitments they know they can honour. Plus you're missing the point of these pledges, UEFA are trying to decide which countries/stadia hold onto their planned games and which lose them and get them rescheduled. The FA have pledged well above what they need to in order to keep their games (and pick up any lost elsewhere) while also pledging what they know they can commit to.
    FIFA crooks, Uefa crooks potato potarto.

    Youre nuts if you think the FA haven’t spoken to government about this before responding. So why are the government not telling them they should be shooting for 100%? Because a backslide is on the way perhaps.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,500
    On the local election front, I am yet to receive any literature other than a crappy Labour leaflet.

    Who am I supposed to vote for?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,863
    Warning of the face eating leopards now means that you are to blame for the face eating leopards.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1380425628277743620?s=21
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
    Which reminds me, I'm spending three days in Aberdeen in the summer, any decent places to visit, also any decent restaurants.

    My previous trips were limited to the Malmaison.
    Can't really help I'm afraid. Even before Covid there had been absolute carnage in the Aberdeen restaurant industry as the oil money dried up and many of the best places had closed. God knows what it will be like now. The Rustico used to be a nice Italian but whether it will have survived lockdown who can say?

    Aberdeen is a pale shadow of the place it used to be when hotel rooms were very hard to find because the oil companies would have block bookings just in case people came onshore unexpectedly.
    Cheers, that's a shame about Aberdeen.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The Government aren't the ones responding, the FA are - and its to UEFA not FIFA.

    And the FA definitely care what UEFA think.

    The FA quite reasonably want to make commitments they know they can honour. Plus you're missing the point of these pledges, UEFA are trying to decide which countries/stadia hold onto their planned games and which lose them and get them rescheduled. The FA have pledged well above what they need to in order to keep their games (and pick up any lost elsewhere) while also pledging what they know they can commit to.
    FIFA crooks, Uefa crooks potato potarto.

    Youre nuts if you think the FA haven’t spoken to government about this before responding. So why are the government not telling them they should be shooting for 100%? Because a backslide is on the way perhaps.
    Because they have no reason to commit to 100% before they know for certain that its possible.

    If they commit to 50% but then are able to do 100% that's a good news story.
    If they commit to 100% but then are able to do 50% that's a terrible story.

    So why commit to more than 50% right now? Under promise, over deliver.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
  • moonshine said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    It’s a perfect anecdote to represent the chumocracy he presided over. Cant see the bad in people because they went to Oxford so must be a good sort.
    I hate to shit on your theory, but Lex Greensill went to the Universities of Queensland and Manchester.

    He saw sense and avoided Oxford.
    🤢 he sounds like a right pleb
    Worse, he's an Aussie.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,780
    edited April 2021
    On topic, communications like this are interesting for understanding what particular form of bollocks the senders want you believe. If the Conservatives have any problems at all vis-a-vis Labour, being outspent by them in Red/Blue Wall seats isn't one of them. Not least because they have been targeting millions of taxpayer money at those very seats.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 53,918

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The football tournament starts just ten days earlier - would it really make that much difference to pull the June 21st step forward by ten days?
    The government seems to want to retain the option of continued social distancing even after end of June date. This might be because various SAGE-related modellers have predicted summer surges or it might be because they want use it as a stick to sell vaxports as a way out of social distancing at certain types of venue (and of course the vax app wont be ready by June).

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,169

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    About right. It is of course possible to be a unionist about Britain (looking at a map indicates why) while thinking that being a unionist about the island of Ireland (again, look at a map) involves a union of the whole island self determining its future, either as one island state or in union with Britain. As the second is even less plausible than the first, a state called Ireland embracing the whole is the only option

    The rioters + the DUP having only negative policies and no affirmative ones, and, crucially having no better plan for Brexit than all the ones they voted against, all suggest that they know this.

    However the end of the union with Scotland isn't in sight; there isn't the support and I don't think there will be. Of the two islands, critical to the future is the whole island either being in or out of the EU.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989
    edited April 2021
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    As I am a diehard Unionist and we will each be weaker if the Union breaks up.

    As our conservative cousins in the PP in Spain showed separatist nationalist governments trying to undermine the unity of the state can be ignored
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The Government aren't the ones responding, the FA are - and its to UEFA not FIFA.

    And the FA definitely care what UEFA think.

    The FA quite reasonably want to make commitments they know they can honour. Plus you're missing the point of these pledges, UEFA are trying to decide which countries/stadia hold onto their planned games and which lose them and get them rescheduled. The FA have pledged well above what they need to in order to keep their games (and pick up any lost elsewhere) while also pledging what they know they can commit to.
    FIFA crooks, Uefa crooks potato potarto.

    Youre nuts if you think the FA haven’t spoken to government about this before responding. So why are the government not telling them they should be shooting for 100%? Because a backslide is on the way perhaps.
    Because they have no reason to commit to 100% before they know for certain that its possible.

    If they commit to 50% but then are able to do 100% that's a good news story.
    If they commit to 100% but then are able to do 50% that's a terrible story.

    So why commit to more than 50% right now? Under promise, over deliver.
    I am not one for this logic. Just do what you fucking promise to. Which was no restrictions after 21 June if no alarm in the stats (which there is not).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Its worth remembering the 21 June pledge isn't for social distancing to end either.

    The 21 June step, as written on Sky's ad-break is: "All legal limits on social contact removed. Social distancing, facemasks and working from home reviewed".

    What's the difference between a legal limit on social contact and social distancing?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    As I am a diehard Unionist and we will each be weaker if the Union breaks up.
    Yes that’s all fine. Why? What do you mean?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    He turned down several directorships and took Greensill Capital? Did he not ask George?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,095

    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    I got the same email from the Tories as Mike.

    I get frequent emails as a "supporter" from the Tories, Labour and Reform UK (as well as from the LibDems).

    It enables me to keep an eye on their activities and their latest "lines".

    I am beginning to feel that my email from my Bestie Boris was just a little less personal than I had assumed. I am so disappointed. The founding donor thing is a little bit weird. Did the Tories not have an election fund before?
    BJ spraying his charms around a bit too liberally, has this ever happened before?
    Could you please avoid using the word 'spraying' in reference to BJ's charms? It produced a disconcerting image in my fevered imagination.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    eek said:

    moonshine said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/08/fa-wants-45000-fans-at-wembley-for-euro-2020-semi-finals-and-final

    Let me get this right. The semis and finals take place after June 21st. The day when “all restrictions will be lifted”. And they’re still only aiming for a pathetic 50% capacity at Wembley?

    Nope it's 50% capacity whatever happens - it may well be more than that but best to under estimate and over deliver rather than the reverse.

    My question is why? What invisible hurdle must be cleared for stadia to return to full capacity?
    Is there a hurdle or is it expectation management so we don't upset the people we need on side to get the 2032 world cup.
    Who cares what those crooks in FIFA think. This just sends a signal to anyone thinking of investing (especially in events) that the goalposts will move forever on a normal return. It directly contradicts the roadmap. The government should be saying loudly that so long as the roadmap stays on course, it will be capacity crowds at every match after 21 June. And possibly even England Scotland a few days earlier.
    The Government aren't the ones responding, the FA are - and its to UEFA not FIFA.

    And the FA definitely care what UEFA think.

    The FA quite reasonably want to make commitments they know they can honour. Plus you're missing the point of these pledges, UEFA are trying to decide which countries/stadia hold onto their planned games and which lose them and get them rescheduled. The FA have pledged well above what they need to in order to keep their games (and pick up any lost elsewhere) while also pledging what they know they can commit to.
    FIFA crooks, Uefa crooks potato potarto.

    Youre nuts if you think the FA haven’t spoken to government about this before responding. So why are the government not telling them they should be shooting for 100%? Because a backslide is on the way perhaps.
    Because they have no reason to commit to 100% before they know for certain that its possible.

    If they commit to 50% but then are able to do 100% that's a good news story.
    If they commit to 100% but then are able to do 50% that's a terrible story.

    So why commit to more than 50% right now? Under promise, over deliver.
    I am not one for this logic. Just do what you fucking promise to. Which was no restrictions after 21 June if no alarm in the stats (which there is not).
    But they've not promised social distancing will end on 21 June, merely that it will be "reviewed". 😒
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989
    edited April 2021
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    About right. It is of course possible to be a unionist about Britain (looking at a map indicates why) while thinking that being a unionist about the island of Ireland (again, look at a map) involves a union of the whole island self determining its future, either as one island state or in union with Britain. As the second is even less plausible than the first, a state called Ireland embracing the whole is the only option

    The rioters + the DUP having only negative policies and no affirmative ones, and, crucially having no better plan for Brexit than all the ones they voted against, all suggest that they know this.

    However the end of the union with Scotland isn't in sight; there isn't the support and I don't think there will be. Of the two islands, critical to the future is the whole island either being in or out of the EU.

    Of course the loyalist violence in Northern Ireland against the Irish Sea border would increase tenfold if a United Ireland was imposed on loyalists in Antrim and Down and Derry without their consent.

    The IRA violence pre GFA against direct rule from London would be replaced with loyalist paramilitary violence against direct rule from Dublin.

    Loyalists would also likely declare UDI for Antrim and much of Down and Derry rather than submit to the whole of Northern Ireland coming under direct Dublin rule.

    Even the Irish PM knows that which is why, coupled with the subsidy Dublin would have to provide for NI for years, he has no desire for a United Ireland any time soon
    https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-interview/20210219-irish-pm-micheál-martin-rules-out-border-poll-over-the-next-number-of-years
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,655
    On topic - yes, I get these emails too (I posted part of this one here a day or two back) and I've been a Labour member for 50 years and have stood against the Tories countless times. I assume it's because I've spoken at Tory fringes for my day job, which I believe doesn't make it GDPR-compliant to send me fundraising requests every week. I don't actually complain as it's quite funny and, as Mike says, gives an interesting insight into the way their minds are working.

    The Labour ones are similar in style - one might almost think both parties use the same agency - with the big difference being that Labour's request starts at £1 while the Tories start at a tenner, as I recall. Given that personal income is no longer a reliable guide to voting, I wonder whether one of the parties is raising less than it could by their approach, or if they're simply pursuing different strategies, with Labour more focused on gettring more people to buy in and the Tories more on maximum cash?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708

    Its worth remembering the 21 June pledge isn't for social distancing to end either.

    The 21 June step, as written on Sky's ad-break is: "All legal limits on social contact removed. Social distancing, facemasks and working from home reviewed".

    What's the difference between a legal limit on social contact and social distancing?

    Laughable. We’re past excess death, the nhs is under no strain, they’re having to try hard to find cases even any more and ucl tell us we are mere days away from herd immunity. Seems like half the country has turned into Red from Shawshank. I sure as hell won’t be wearing a mask after 21 June and the law as written cannot compel me to either.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,000
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    As I am a diehard Unionist and we will each be weaker if the Union breaks up.

    As our conservative cousins in the PP in Spain showed separatist nationalist governments trying to undermine the unity of the state can be ignored
    Just like Franco did!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,780
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    But equally why do you push back on Scott's "Little Englander" comment, when that seems to be what you want?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 44,456
    Crikey, another one:

    The Conservative Party
    David,

    This morning the Prime Minister asked you to become a founding donor of our Elections Fund.

    Our campaigns are fuelled by grassroots supporters who care about delivering for the British people, contributing whatever they can:

    Make a Donation
    Because whilst Labour may be able to fall back on alarming levels of union cash, we’re relying on you at this pivotal moment.

    So David, with less than a month until the biggest ever set of elections, will you take the immediate action we need to fund our campaigns?

    Yes
    Thank you for all your continued support.

    Yours sincerely,

    Conservatives Campaign Team

    A bit keen don't you think?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    Barnesian said:

    I got the same email from the Tories as Mike.

    I get frequent emails as a "supporter" from the Tories, Labour and Reform UK (as well as from the LibDems).

    It enables me to keep an eye on their activities and their latest "lines".

    Maybe it's "if we email Mike Smithson we get lots of publicity among politically-aware people". I imagine someone at CCHQ has seen this and could take him off the list if they wanted.
    That’s what I thought
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,838

    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    I got the same email from the Tories as Mike.

    I get frequent emails as a "supporter" from the Tories, Labour and Reform UK (as well as from the LibDems).

    It enables me to keep an eye on their activities and their latest "lines".

    I am beginning to feel that my email from my Bestie Boris was just a little less personal than I had assumed. I am so disappointed. The founding donor thing is a little bit weird. Did the Tories not have an election fund before?
    BJ spraying his charms around a bit too liberally, has this ever happened before?
    Could you please avoid using the word 'spraying' in reference to BJ's charms? It produced a disconcerting image in my fevered imagination.
    Why? Hattersley famously sprayed Boris is a gentleman to his lady friends...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 102,989

    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    As I am a diehard Unionist and we will each be weaker if the Union breaks up.

    As our conservative cousins in the PP in Spain showed separatist nationalist governments trying to undermine the unity of the state can be ignored
    Just like Franco did!
    Franco at least kept the Communists out and kept Spain united
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    He turned down several directorships and took Greensill Capital? Did he not ask George?
    He went for the biggest potential payoff to avoid working 24/7
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    He turned down several directorships and took Greensill Capital? Did he not ask George?
    George has had a hectic private life in recent years, getting divorced, getting a new fiancée, knocking her up.

    Just to make it even more exciting, Thea Rogers is Chief Customer Experience Offer at Deliveroo, which had a bit of a disaster recently with their IPO.

    People are asking whose bright idea it was to spam the users of the App and their email and encourage the customers to invest in Deliveroo.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 43,105

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    Name me the last decent Welsh test player?

    Simon Jones, and he last played for England in 2005.
    He was better than decent.
    Could have been one of the all time greats if his knee hadn't gone.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    eek said:

    Charles said:

    Good Morning everyone. Or such as up and about at almost 7am. Not entirely surprised that the N.Irelans situation is biting our PM on the bum.
    As was posted yesterday, Conservative short-term solutions in Ireland have a habit of doing that.

    That’s unbelievably unfair and partisan.

    Sunnyngdale and the AngloIrish Agreement worked well, and Major deserves a lot of credit for the GFA (although it was Blair who got it over the line).

    Stop trying to make political jibes from something that is so important.
    John Major left politics almost 20/24 years ago (depending on whether you think leaving was when he was no longer on the front line or no longer an MP).
    The AngloIrish Agreement was in 99 I think. If you read George Mitchell’s biography you’ll see how important Major was.
    Agree; perhaps surprisingly. And if something is a 'habit' one usually does it (or wears it!) Not necessarily every time.

    And, if I were you I'd 'save' your first line; you'll find it useful here. Quite often!
    Ireland matters too much. Ever since Bonar Law’s grubby deal with Craig party politics has bedevilled the province
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    About right. It is of course possible to be a unionist about Britain (looking at a map indicates why) while thinking that being a unionist about the island of Ireland (again, look at a map) involves a union of the whole island self determining its future, either as one island state or in union with Britain. As the second is even less plausible than the first, a state called Ireland embracing the whole is the only option

    The rioters + the DUP having only negative policies and no affirmative ones, and, crucially having no better plan for Brexit than all the ones they voted against, all suggest that they know this.

    However the end of the union with Scotland isn't in sight; there isn't the support and I don't think there will be. Of the two islands, critical to the future is the whole island either being in or out of the EU.

    Of course the loyalist violence in Northern Ireland against the Irish Sea border would increase tenfold if a United Ireland was imposed on loyalists in Antrim and Down and Derry without their consent.

    The IRA violence pre GFA against direct rule from London would be replaced with loyalist paramilitary violence against direct rule from Dublin.

    Loyalists would also likely declare UDI for Antrim and much of Down and Derry rather than submit to the whole of Northern Ireland coming under direct Dublin rule.

    Even the Irish PM knows that which is why, coupled with the subsidy Dublin would have to provide for NI for years, he has no desire for a United Ireland any time soon
    https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-interview/20210219-irish-pm-micheál-martin-rules-out-border-poll-over-the-next-number-of-years
    The problem for the Irish is that the trigger for a border poll isn't in their control.

    But equally no-one wants Northern Ireland as it's a money pit and makes Scotland's look fiscally sane.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 34,863

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
    Which reminds me, I'm spending three days in Aberdeen in the summer, any decent places to visit, also any decent restaurants.

    My previous trips were limited to the Malmaison.
    Can't really help I'm afraid. Even before Covid there had been absolute carnage in the Aberdeen restaurant industry as the oil money dried up and many of the best places had closed. God knows what it will be like now. The Rustico used to be a nice Italian but whether it will have survived lockdown who can say?

    Aberdeen is a pale shadow of the place it used to be when hotel rooms were very hard to find because the oil companies would have block bookings just in case people came onshore unexpectedly.
    Cheers, that's a shame about Aberdeen.
    Aberdeen Art Gallery reopens at the end of April (it went through a lengthy and expensive renovation and only opened for a few months before Covid struck so I haven’t seen the new look). It’s got a good collection, even a couple of my pals in there.

    Kafka used to be the place for expensive designer tat, just 200m from the art gallery (everything’s pretty close in Aberdeen city centre).
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,708
    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    But equally why do you push back on Scott's "Little Englander" comment, when that seems to be what you want?
    I am like Don Corleone. I’m not interested in things that don’t concern me. If a majority of Scots want self rule then what business is that of mine? Equally very happy to have them in the Union of that’s what they want.

    My overriding belief is power is best exercised by the individual. Where thats not possible or is inappropriate, it should be as localised, accountable and transparent as possible.

    Where does the current arrangement sit against that metric? That’s for the Scots to decide, whatever my private view.
  • Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    Why do you EU extremists always forget the Welsh? England and Wales Cricket team. England and Wales Law. And Wales voted for Brexit too.
    Name me the last decent Welsh test player?

    Simon Jones, and he last played for England in 2005.
    He was better than decent.
    Could have been one of the all time greats if his knee hadn't gone.
    I know, I know. The highlight of the 2005 Ashes was Aussie batsman after Aussie batsman shouldering arms to Simon Jones deliveries only to see their stumps rearranged.

    That decision to put Australia in at the Gabba in 2002 haunts Nasser Hussain, it well and truly ruined Simon Jones.
  • FF43 said:



    I doubt that such imagery will distress that portion of the electorate that both voted Leave and doesn't particularly care about Northern Ireland - i.e. most of them.

    I'm afraid that a lot of Unionists still haven't appreciated that Brexit isn't their real problem, it's that the British state itself has been fatally undermined by the total mess created by devolution. De jure the UK is still a unitary state; de facto it's neither that nor a fully-functional federation, but a wobbly, uneven, lop-sided confederacy, in which - unlike the vast majority of the world's nations - a right of secession is assumed. The result is that, with every passing year, the percentage of people within its borders who think of themselves as actually being British declines and the forces pulling it apart become that bit stronger.

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise. The cause is that the UK is now a horrible chimera of an institution, still with some of the attributes of a conventional sovereign state but in many respects rather like a small, crap European Union - with a central authority that nobody likes, where all the members increasingly dislike each other, and where there's a one-way ratchet not of "more powers" but "less powers" as the clock ticks balefully towards its inevitable collapse.

    As to whether the reality of their doomed situation has yet to dawn on the Loyalist rioters in Belfast, and they therefore think that their nonsense might still get them somewhere, or it has and they're acting out of nihilistic despair, who can say? The important point to absorb is that most voters in England, especially those likely to support the Conservatives, don't care very much about Northern Ireland - and why should they? In Scotland, Northern Ireland, and increasingly in Wales as well (where Labour is a nationalistic force that now offers pro-independence candidates to the electorate,) the political scene is full of angry nationalists who like nothing about England except its money. For them, the devolved parliaments represent the sole legitimate expression of the political will of their respective peoples; the British state is an imperial master to be defied and pulled down. The English, meanwhile, who don't get to have a parliament, are meant to sit there, disregard their own interests and hand over fat bribes every year in order to prevent the whole thing collapsing. It's small wonder that this doesn't work very well.

    This gets to the nub of the Brexit contradiction and deserves a proper response. Briefly, the contradiction will play out differently for people in England (And Wales!!!), Ireland and Scotland from what many thought and were hoping for. Partly because the "Brexit" moniker implies BRritain EXITing, when it is all actually about England.
    In summary:
    England: Brexit population, Brexit government;
    Wales: Brexit population, Remainer government;
    NI: Remainer population, Brexit government;
    Scotland: Remainer population, Remainer government.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,059

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    I missed the previous Sunak thread but on its topic I'm not seeing anything that makes me question my bet. I'm letting my bet ride to the end (in one part because I don't know how to lay it off without putting £5000 in cash into Betfair considering it wasn't a Betfair bet to begin with), but I don't see anything in those texts that would cause Sunak to be fired from being Chancellor. I don't see anything there that will be significant for the next leadership election with MPs nominating or the membership vote either. So I don't see how its a factor.

    I suspect Sunak's fate will be far more tied to whether and how the UK economy bounces back from Covid than anything to do with texts with Dave.

    Greensill didn't get the loans they were after - so I'm at a loss as to why it's even vaguely a story. Sunak's emails are the exact thing you do to move an issue elsewhere
    Indeed. Former minister lobbies current minister isn’t exactly a story.

    Company employing former minister gets preferential treatment would have been; but the preferential treatment they hoped to get by employing the former minister never arrived.
    It’s not really a huge story in itself.

    However, it isn’t just a “former minister”, it’s a former prime minister, who I naively assumed would be above such things.

    Can’t he swan off to the middle east to advocate for peace or something?
    Like you I feel that this is more than a little grubby for an ex PM and it does not reflect well on him, whether it worked or not.
    Dave (pbuh) doesn't have a sleazy bone in his body, I know he's turned down several jobs/directorships with firms because he didn't think it would be proper.

    This story is an example of Dave being nice and helpful to people he knows.
    He turned down several directorships and took Greensill Capital? Did he not ask George?
    George has had a hectic private life in recent years, getting divorced, getting a new fiancée, knocking her up.

    Just to make it even more exciting, Thea Rogers is Chief Customer Experience Offer at Deliveroo, which had a bit of a disaster recently with their IPO.

    People are asking whose bright idea it was to spam the users of the App and their email and encourage the customers to invest in Deliveroo.
    There is not a single part of the Deliveroo / Just Eat or Uber Eats business model that makes any actual sense. It's a combination of doing everything and anything to pretend their delivery workers aren't employees attached to charging takeaways 30% to attract customers too lazy to pick up the phone.
  • DavidL said:

    Crikey, another one:

    The Conservative Party
    David,

    This morning the Prime Minister asked you to become a founding donor of our Elections Fund.

    Our campaigns are fuelled by grassroots supporters who care about delivering for the British people, contributing whatever they can:

    Make a Donation
    Because whilst Labour may be able to fall back on alarming levels of union cash, we’re relying on you at this pivotal moment.

    So David, with less than a month until the biggest ever set of elections, will you take the immediate action we need to fund our campaigns?

    Yes
    Thank you for all your continued support.

    Yours sincerely,

    Conservatives Campaign Team

    A bit keen don't you think?

    Fits in with the theory that all parties don't have a pot to piss in after so many elections and plebiscites in recent years.

    Will the Blue Meanies put a tithe on the allowances of their councillors ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,780
    moonshine said:

    FF43 said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    All the bad tempered arguments over Brexit, who did and did not vote for it, and its effects are primarily a symptom rather than a cause of the malaise.

    Brexit was and is a Little Englander project that will lead to the break up of the Union.

    This was known before the vote.

    And still the fanbois cheer.
    How can 17 million people be little Englanders? This is the level of analysis of a 12 year old. Why don't you stick to posting other people's tweets.

    If you think me questioning your intelligence and insulting you is unlikely to change your mind, then perhaps your approach might not work on Brexit supporters.
    The project was driven by Little Englanders - they recruited a large number of the gullible and discontented.

    I note you haven't adressed @Scott_xP's point. Brexit is going to destroy the union.
    No its not. Black_Rook hit the nail on the head before, the union was destroyed by devolution.

    Its only a matter of time now. Brexit is coincidental to it. There's no solution to the West Lothian Question still, half a century after it was asked and the forces against the union now are ratchetting one way.

    The union will end. Brexit isn't why.
    Utter rubbish, the Union will not end.

    We Tories will refuse a legal indyref2 under all circumstances for starters.

    However I do agree in my local party at least a majority of Tories support an English Parliament within the UK now
    I don’t mean this in an inflammatory way. But why do you care so much? If there’s a popular majority for independence in what was a historically sovereign nation, who are you to stand on the way? It’s also a somewhat counterproductive position to take if I may say so.

    But equally why do you push back on Scott's "Little Englander" comment, when that seems to be what you want?
    I am like Don Corleone. I’m not interested in things that don’t concern me. If a majority of Scots want self rule then what business is that of mine? Equally very happy to have them in the Union of that’s what they want.

    My overriding belief is power is best exercised by the individual. Where thats not possible or is inappropriate, it should be as localised, accountable and transparent as possible.

    Where does the current arrangement sit against that metric? That’s for the Scots to decide, whatever my private view.
    I assume you are English? What do you want for England?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,008
    HYUFD said:



    Even the Irish PM knows that which is why, coupled with the subsidy Dublin would have to provide for NI for years, he has no desire for a United Ireland any time soon
    https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/the-interview/20210219-irish-pm-micheál-martin-rules-out-border-poll-over-the-next-number-of-years

    That analysis will not survive a Sinn Fein government. They are already the largest party in the Dail and FG/FF had to form a coalition of the unwilling to keep them out.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic, the email from the Tories doesn't surprise me. The Labour membership database was also woefully out of date - don't forget that for a long time the only real way to quit the party was to stop paying your subs. That meant a database with a whole load of lapsed "members".

    I stopped being CLP secretary in something like 2018, quit the party in 2019 and yet was still receiving post addressed to me as CLP Secretary in 2020. Post containing cheques with affiliation fees from trade unions!

    Well, these new houses in Aberdeenshire have got to be paid for somehow! (You do realise that at least until independence it is not difficult to be extradited back to England?)_
    Which reminds me, I'm spending three days in Aberdeen in the summer, any decent places to visit, also any decent restaurants.

    My previous trips were limited to the Malmaison.
    Can't really help I'm afraid. Even before Covid there had been absolute carnage in the Aberdeen restaurant industry as the oil money dried up and many of the best places had closed. God knows what it will be like now. The Rustico used to be a nice Italian but whether it will have survived lockdown who can say?

    Aberdeen is a pale shadow of the place it used to be when hotel rooms were very hard to find because the oil companies would have block bookings just in case people came onshore unexpectedly.
    Cheers, that's a shame about Aberdeen.
    Aberdeen Art Gallery reopens at the end of April (it went through a lengthy and expensive renovation and only opened for a few months before Covid struck so I haven’t seen the new look). It’s got a good collection, even a couple of my pals in there.

    Kafka used to be the place for expensive designer tat, just 200m from the art gallery (everything’s pretty close in Aberdeen city centre).
    Ta.
This discussion has been closed.