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One Woman’s Perspective – politicalbetting.com

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  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797

    Can someone talk me through this love for Drakeford, please? Is it just because the vaccine rate in Wales has been impressive the last 4-5 weeks?

    Because 2 months ago absolutely everyone thought he was a total pillock, and the absurdity of him locking down supermarket shelves was widely derided.

    I've been assuming that it's largely ironic, but he was being criticised when he was stockpiling doses and Wales as falling behind, so only fair to give him some credit when Wales does better.
    Probably they like the case numbers being so much better than the rest of the UK as well. And they're ahead in opening up.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Taz said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    Ahem: Anne Cryer MP, various female social workers and female police officers (Maggie Oliver whistle blew over Rochdale) did raise the issue. And were shut down. By male MPs and senior male police officers, as it happens.
    Anne Cryer was treated dreadfully by, mostly,male, colleagues and accused of being a racist and BNP enabler. A similar thing happened to Sarah Chanpion.

    This simply allowed the far right to own the issue as mainstream politicians were too scared to tackle it. It’s shameful. Girls were raped and molested on an industrial scale and many in positions of peer main concern were the optics not the victims. One victim was even arrested for abusing in the street one of her abusers. It’s insane.

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/ann-cryer-and-fight-expose-child-grooming-gangs-yorkshire-1751079
    Simply put, the victims were lower down the "victim hierarchy" than the perpetrators. I experienced the same when reporting my girlfriend being spat on and called a white whore in the street over several occasions, the police didn't want to know.
    If they had misgendered her on Twitter you’d have had a better chance of action from them.
    This was back in the early noughties so twitter wasn't a thing really
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,399
    From Europe Elects

    Germany: Rhineland-Palatinate regional election today

    8.14 PM CET Infratest dimap seat projection

    SPD-S&D: 40 (+1)
    CDU-EPP: 29 (-6)
    AfD-ID: 10 (-4)
    GRÜNE-Greens/EFA: 9 (+3)
    FW-RE: 7 (+7)
    FDP-RE: 6 (-1)

    +/- vs. 2016 final result

    Note: Majority at 51
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,787

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    Incels are an example of the sort of of entitled male anger that is the problem. Men who make no concessions to being pleasant or respectful to women who believe they are entitled to sex. Too much time on the Internet watching porn, I suppose.

    It is not women who are to blame for their behaviour, nor their parents or teachers. They taught themselves to hate women, down a rabbit hole of their own choice.
    I had not previously heard the term “incel”. 20 minutes with google later... Jesus Christ!
    Yep. He was one. But not involuntary.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,125
    Andy_JS said:
    Reminds me of one of the characters from The Queens Gambit, played by the boy from Love Actually
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,787
    edited March 14
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Perhaps a preparatory step might be to stop wanking and leave their bedrooms.
    A pleasant conversation with a female might follow some time later.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    edited March 14
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670
    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,787
    edited March 14

    From Europe Elects

    Germany: Rhineland-Palatinate regional election today

    8.14 PM CET Infratest dimap seat projection

    SPD-S&D: 40 (+1)
    CDU-EPP: 29 (-6)
    AfD-ID: 10 (-4)
    GRÜNE-Greens/EFA: 9 (+3)
    FW-RE: 7 (+7)
    FDP-RE: 6 (-1)

    +/- vs. 2016 final result

    Note: Majority at 51

    Incumbents up 3.
    Combined opposition down 3.
    Actually down 10 as the FW weren't part of the outgoing parliament.
  • I remember the Boris Johnson fanboys denied this.

    https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/1371194415050588160
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    edited March 14
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the top 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,265
    edited March 14

    I remember the Boris Johnson fanboys denied this.

    https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/1371194415050588160

    Knowing what we no know, there would have been no international travel after December 2019.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    Speaking of elections in the far-flung reaches of Her Majesty's Great White North:

    > Newfoundland & Labrador GE, March 25
    most recent polling (as per wiki) from Feb has incumbent Liberal govt ahead at 53% versus Progressive Conservatives at 32%, New Democratic Party at 9%, and Newfoundland Alliance at 2%

    > Yukon GE, April 12
    most recent polling (again per wiki) from Feb has incumbent Liberal govt at 31%, Yukon Party (conservative) at 30%, and NDP at 33% so clearly all to play for in the Klondike.

    Note that by law, territorial election for Nunavut will be held on or before October 25.

    Further note that a Federal general election MAY also take place in 2021.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,866
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,375
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    MaxPB said:

    The Sunday Times carries an interesting article about the German Greens.

    Essentially, they have adopted a more pro-business, economically liberal approach (stripping off CDU voters) whilst also maintaining their counter-cultural/radical vibe too, and thus stripping off SDP, so they get enough votes to win.

    A bit of a textbook case of "AND" politics; riding two horses at once.

    That lasts until you get into power, look at what happened to the Lib Dems here. They had to choose which policies to push and which to give up and voters haven't forgiven them for that. Even Boris is threading a very small needle with keeping blue wallers and shire Tories in the same coalition. He's waved goodbye to fiscally dry, social liberals like myself but we were never a huge part of the voting coalition and we're unlikely to vote Labour so it's not very damaging. How he will ride the working class Tory horse and keep the shire Tories happy will be interesting to see if Labour doesn't fall into any major trap that allows Boris to get the leave band back together.
    Yes, like Blair (and Boris) it has a lifespan and is difficult to keep all parties happy at the same time but, it's often the only route to power.

    Labour will certainly have to do it, if they want to regain office.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Apart from you still live in the 12 century, barely less than half the population for the uk are married in the 21st century (50.4%) and its declining for all age groupd under 70
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    So AZ actually REDUCES the chance of blood clots. It is positively therapeutic. Another genius move by our European friends and neighbours.

    When the tragic history of Covid-19 is written, the chapter on the European Reaction to the Vaccines will at least provide some surreal comic relief. I wonder if people will believe it
    They've quite literally gone insane.
    It’s the Irish reaction that is most baffling, to me, at the moment (with many rivals). Suspending AZ for ‘one week’. Why? What possible rationale do they have? What do they expect to happen in that week??
    I think Ireland is starting to feel the pressure over Brexit in a new way.
    https://twitter.com/RSylvesterTimes/status/1370665879344668678
    It has to be said that this thing seemed bizarre - apparently the EU has no current plans to get involved in re-opening trade negotiations with the US.

    Given the disaster that is EU-UK trade, they can hardly expect the UK not to attempt to make up some ground elsewhere.
    There's been a few rumours that the EU are threatening to cut off trade talks with Australia if the UK is allowed to join the CPTPP. I didn't put much stock in the idea until Australia were singled out with the vaccine export ban. It shows just how paranoid the EU is about the UK's success outside of it, joining the CPTPP would be a huge vindication of leaving and at the same time we'd get a lot more leverage to address the deficiencies in the EU deal in 2026 as we'd be in a much stronger position to actually walk away.
    That would be utterly extraordinary. Outright hostility and a blatant attempt to harm us, out of nothing but spite.

    The EU has done so many mad things recently I suppose it might be true, but it would still astonish me
    I'm not sure anything would surprise me anymore.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Apart from you still live in the 12 century, barely less than half the population for the uk are married in the 21st century (50.4%) and its declining for all age groupd under 70
    So still over half the population are married then and most of the remainder over the age of 35 or so will be in long term relationships
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    I agree, and I think this founders on what men think is "nice" compared to women.

    To be called a "nice guy" by a woman is normally the kiss of death for a guy, because it means he's unobjectionable enough and pleasant, but otherwise devoid of personality or interest, dull and maybe a bit of a lemon.

    What "nice" really means is funny, confident and considerate, but also comfortable in their own skin and interesting - and far too few men think you're a bad-boy ass, or a wet lettuce, with nothing inbetween.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    A huge percentage of Trump supporters simply don't believe anything said about him. So conditioned are they against "the MSM", and so deep into the cult. Even when he damn near confirms it with his own words.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,375
    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    A huge percentage of Trump supporters simply don't believe anything said about him. So conditioned are they against "the MSM", and so deep into the cult. Even when he damn near confirms it with his own words.
    The worst thing I ever got called by a woman was "cute but scary" I still to this day have no idea how to work out what that meant
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,558
    AnneJGP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    So AZ actually REDUCES the chance of blood clots. It is positively therapeutic. Another genius move by our European friends and neighbours.

    When the tragic history of Covid-19 is written, the chapter on the European Reaction to the Vaccines will at least provide some surreal comic relief. I wonder if people will believe it
    They've quite literally gone insane.
    It’s the Irish reaction that is most baffling, to me, at the moment (with many rivals). Suspending AZ for ‘one week’. Why? What possible rationale do they have? What do they expect to happen in that week??
    Politico might surmise, that the Micks are wanting to show solidarity with the EU, without unduly pissing off the Brits?

    Medico might think (perhaps?) that they (and rest of them) are waiting for some more scientific evidence?

    And could truth (at least small-t) be somewhere in between?
    They have to be seen to be taking the reports (or maybe think they have to be seen to be) seriously because just ignoring them would perhaps make matters worse. I don’t know. They will get there in the end. If we can put a lid on this thing by July and hunker down on our own island for 12 months nor so while they catch up that’s fine by me. Ireland is a special case given the CTA but, if reports are to be believed, we are soon to be vaccinating the population equivalent of the entire island of Ireland every 10 days. That will not go unnoticed over there.
    If we just keep supplying NI with vaccines once the NI population is dealt with, the vaccination centres can simply go on jabbing anyone who cares to cross the border and show up, surely.
    It’s a long way from Cork to Belfast
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    Yes, absolutely right. If you’re in that top 10% of men getting all the attention, why settle down with one woman? You can have endless sexual variety into your 40s. A male fantasy come true

    This makes the most-desired men more commitment-phobic, which makes the women even more paranoid and yielding, and so the vicious cycle tightens

    The only choice for the beta minus men is to get rich. Easier said than done, of course
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,458
    Another 26,343 cases in France.

    image
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    Every point made by Cyclefree about female grievances about the dangers faced from men in random areas deserves sympathy but it leaves out that in real life females chose the male in their life for intimate relationships not the other way around.
    And while it may be extremely unlucky if a female ends up in a relationship with a violent or abusive man anybody who looked around them prior to Covid would notice that there are lots of females who chose to go with males who have obvious demons rather the go out with a boring or passive male.
    As regards the Sex Grooming Gangs tragic stories partly why the 'underclass' females complaints were ignored was about class.Plenty of females in authority will have turned a blind eye to the complaints because they look down on females from those backgrounds.Academic feminists tend to cover up just how much they look down on other females not just on class grounds but on values .They dislike socially conservative females and basically think any female who does not have a BBC/Guardian worldview is either bad or stupid.Look at the response of academic feminists to any right wing female such a Thatcher,Patel Sarah Palin etc - in every case they are either labelled bad or stupid
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797
    edited March 14

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Maybe, but don't the stats show that 80-90% of people get married?

    So, most men do find a woman?

    Admittedly, this might mean just 1-2 sexual partners, when the top 10% get 30-50 each, and those they are marrying aren't necessarily their ideal preferred partner, but it's not like 90% of men are incels on the rampage.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,688
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    So AZ actually REDUCES the chance of blood clots. It is positively therapeutic. Another genius move by our European friends and neighbours.

    When the tragic history of Covid-19 is written, the chapter on the European Reaction to the Vaccines will at least provide some surreal comic relief. I wonder if people will believe it
    They've quite literally gone insane.
    It’s the Irish reaction that is most baffling, to me, at the moment (with many rivals). Suspending AZ for ‘one week’. Why? What possible rationale do they have? What do they expect to happen in that week??
    I think Ireland is starting to feel the pressure over Brexit in a new way.
    https://twitter.com/RSylvesterTimes/status/1370665879344668678
    Is he serious? Why should the EU care what trade deals the UK does.
    I think some of our "friends" in the EU are slowly starting to realise that the UK might be serious about Brexit. I expect to see a lot more of this "I can't believe they've done this to us" from our neighbours in the years ahead.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    A huge percentage of Trump supporters simply don't believe anything said about him. So conditioned are they against "the MSM", and so deep into the cult. Even when he damn near confirms it with his own words.
    Some, but NOT as many as many think, methinks.

    Personally think what you might call the King David Syndrome was much more prevalent: the idea that a Great Man often/usually has terrible flaws, but that God/history/destiny uses his other gifts (such as capacity for being a Class A a-hole) for good (however defined).
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    DougSeal said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    So AZ actually REDUCES the chance of blood clots. It is positively therapeutic. Another genius move by our European friends and neighbours.

    When the tragic history of Covid-19 is written, the chapter on the European Reaction to the Vaccines will at least provide some surreal comic relief. I wonder if people will believe it
    They've quite literally gone insane.
    It’s the Irish reaction that is most baffling, to me, at the moment (with many rivals). Suspending AZ for ‘one week’. Why? What possible rationale do they have? What do they expect to happen in that week??
    Politico might surmise, that the Micks are wanting to show solidarity with the EU, without unduly pissing off the Brits?

    Medico might think (perhaps?) that they (and rest of them) are waiting for some more scientific evidence?

    And could truth (at least small-t) be somewhere in between?
    They have to be seen to be taking the reports (or maybe think they have to be seen to be) seriously because just ignoring them would perhaps make matters worse. I don’t know. They will get there in the end. If we can put a lid on this thing by July and hunker down on our own island for 12 months nor so while they catch up that’s fine by me. Ireland is a special case given the CTA but, if reports are to be believed, we are soon to be vaccinating the population equivalent of the entire island of Ireland every 10 days. That will not go unnoticed over there.
    If we just keep supplying NI with vaccines once the NI population is dealt with, the vaccination centres can simply go on jabbing anyone who cares to cross the border and show up, surely.
    It’s a long way from Cork to Belfast
    Even further than Tipperary.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,185
    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
    Fro time to time a story does the rounds that men don't want to earn less than their girlfriends/wives. I have no idea if it's true or not, but I find it odd as I'd have thought it really good news to have your partner earning good money.

    I suppose there are child considerations, but shared parental leave has helped in that regard. A colleague of mine was very satisfied with taking four months parental leave in 2019. It just so happened to coincide with the cricket world cup and the Ashes. And the thing is, the woman still does the harder leg of the 12 months.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,866
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
    It may well surprise you, but there are other ways of meeting women than Tinder.

    While I haven't been on the pull for 35 years, neither of my boys has been short of girl friends and girlfriends, met through friends or shared interests. Indeed, with his interest in theatre and art, Fox Jr2 is very popular with the girls.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797

    Another 26,343 cases in France.

    image

    Increasingly suspicious about deaths numbers in some European countries. Maybe the vaccines (even in current relatively small numbers) really are having an impact. But the contrast between the numbers (pro-rata) in the central European countries and, say, France are quite stark.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Maybe, but don't the stats show that 80-90% of people get married?

    So, most men do find a woman?

    Admittedly, this might mean just 1-2 sexual partners, when the top 10% get 30-50 each, and those they are marrying aren't necessarily their ideal preferred partner, but it's not like 90% of men are incels on the rampage.
    Not sure where you get 90%

    Quote
    Patterns of marital status in England and Wales have changed over time. In 2018, just over half of the population (50.5%) in England and Wales were married. The second-largest proportion was the single (never married or civil-partnered) population at 35.0%, followed by divorced at 8.0%, widowed at 6.4% and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    Source
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2018#:~:text=In 2018, just over half,and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    As far as I understand that 35% is a growing figure
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,137
    Good article by Cyclefree, as always. I've been discussing it a lot on local websites - my original post simply expressing sympathy and showing the torch from the doorstep vigil got nearly 500 "likes" and sparked off a series of conversations on what men can do or not do that will help. The kind of gross behaviour that Cyclefree has experienced herself came up less in the discussion than worries about safety in the street.

    There have been quite a few incidents here of youths shouting abusively or just intrusively at passing women, and although they very rarely lead to anything physical, the women concerned don't know that until the ordeal is over. The British tradition of minding your own business gets in the way of bystanders intervening helpfully, although a few people had horror stories of trying to intervene when they see what seems to be a man harassing a woman and having them both turn on the "helper". As it's all Facebook, it's hard to tell if those incidents were real or made up, and there were other comments by women who really appreciated someone showing concern, even just a vague "everything OK, love?"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    DougSeal said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Floater said:
    So AZ actually REDUCES the chance of blood clots. It is positively therapeutic. Another genius move by our European friends and neighbours.

    When the tragic history of Covid-19 is written, the chapter on the European Reaction to the Vaccines will at least provide some surreal comic relief. I wonder if people will believe it
    They've quite literally gone insane.
    It’s the Irish reaction that is most baffling, to me, at the moment (with many rivals). Suspending AZ for ‘one week’. Why? What possible rationale do they have? What do they expect to happen in that week??
    Politico might surmise, that the Micks are wanting to show solidarity with the EU, without unduly pissing off the Brits?

    Medico might think (perhaps?) that they (and rest of them) are waiting for some more scientific evidence?

    And could truth (at least small-t) be somewhere in between?
    They have to be seen to be taking the reports (or maybe think they have to be seen to be) seriously because just ignoring them would perhaps make matters worse. I don’t know. They will get there in the end. If we can put a lid on this thing by July and hunker down on our own island for 12 months nor so while they catch up that’s fine by me. Ireland is a special case given the CTA but, if reports are to be believed, we are soon to be vaccinating the population equivalent of the entire island of Ireland every 10 days. That will not go unnoticed over there.
    If we just keep supplying NI with vaccines once the NI population is dealt with, the vaccination centres can simply go on jabbing anyone who cares to cross the border and show up, surely.
    It’s a long way from Cork to Belfast
    A five hour drive. So there & back in a day, or over the weekend with time left for shopping.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670
    edited March 14
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
    Miranda on Sex in the City was a high flying lawyer who married working class Steve and it worked out fine
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,375
    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
    Miranda on Sex in the City was a high flying lawyer who married working class Steve and it worked out fine
    Oh, well if it happened on Sex & the City I'm sure that's how it works in real life for everyone.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Yes. I can confidently say I never did anything I think is morally wrong, but I’ve no doubt that some of my actions when I was 18 taken out of context and read back to me in court would be a bit uncomfortable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    A huge percentage of Trump supporters simply don't believe anything said about him. So conditioned are they against "the MSM", and so deep into the cult. Even when he damn near confirms it with his own words.
    The worst thing I ever got called by a woman was "cute but scary" I still to this day have no idea how to work out what that meant
    Definite compliment. Cherish it
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797
    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
    Miranda on Sex in the City was a high flying lawyer who married working class Steve and it worked out fine
    Lol. There's anecdotal evidence and there's anecdotal evidence from a fictional TV series!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,002
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    When do people swap nude photos in a relationship these days ? I constantly read all these articles about how "my picture ended up on site xyz" and am thinking err...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Cyclefree said:


    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    I wasn't implying that, I meant more women are holding out for the perfect one rather than 50 years ago where they would settle for a good one.

    There is a reason the phrase "nice guys finish last" came about
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    Indeed. But the effect of doing so was to send a message that his behaviour was not as unacceptable as all that.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,797
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    A huge percentage of Trump supporters simply don't believe anything said about him. So conditioned are they against "the MSM", and so deep into the cult. Even when he damn near confirms it with his own words.
    The worst thing I ever got called by a woman was "cute but scary" I still to this day have no idea how to work out what that meant
    Definite compliment. Cherish it
    But don't seek a high powered position with a public profile.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    Heh. I used to assume 2nd - 3rd date. I’m guessing there’s 10-15 years between us so it must have been declining in a straight line.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Maybe, but don't the stats show that 80-90% of people get married?

    So, most men do find a woman?

    Admittedly, this might mean just 1-2 sexual partners, when the top 10% get 30-50 each, and those they are marrying aren't necessarily their ideal preferred partner, but it's not like 90% of men are incels on the rampage.
    Not sure where you get 90%

    Quote
    Patterns of marital status in England and Wales have changed over time. In 2018, just over half of the population (50.5%) in England and Wales were married. The second-largest proportion was the single (never married or civil-partnered) population at 35.0%, followed by divorced at 8.0%, widowed at 6.4% and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    Source
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2018#:~:text=In 2018, just over half,and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    As far as I understand that 35% is a growing figure
    61.4% of the population (29.3 million) were living with a partner in England and Wales. This breaks down to:

    48.3% of the population were living as “married or civil partner couples”

    10.4% of the population as “cohabiting, never married or civil partnered”

    2.7% of the population as “cohabiting, previously married or civil partnered”
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2018#:~:text=In 2018, just over half,and civil partnered at 0.2%
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
    It may well surprise you, but there are other ways of meeting women than Tinder.

    While I haven't been on the pull for 35 years, neither of my boys has been short of girl friends and girlfriends, met through friends or shared interests. Indeed, with his interest in theatre and art, Fox Jr2 is very popular with the girls.
    Back in his misspent youth, my Daddy Dearest (a member of his high school football team) took home economics, partly to learn how to cook, but mostly to meet & hang out with girls.

    Suspect he focused on the latter, as his cooking was pretty rudimentary!
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    alex_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Yes but ultimately the best looking 10% of men cannot marry 80% of women can they? So while the 10% can play the field more even they will eventually settle down with the top 10% of women looks wise, leaving the remaining 90% of women for the remaining 90% of men
    Nope, there's a matching set of celibate women - women won't marry down and for an increasing number of middle class women with good jobs it means they end up living their 'best lives' alone.
    Well that is their own fault then if they are so fussy
    In crude terms, men are more likely to select for physical attractiveness, and women are more likely to select for status.

    Worked absolutely fine when men were the breadwinners. Now we have a more equal jobs market, it leads to quite the quandry for successful, but less physically attractive women.
    Miranda on Sex in the City was a high flying lawyer who married working class Steve and it worked out fine
    Lol. There's anecdotal evidence and there's anecdotal evidence from a fictional TV series!
    I was mislead by Bond films. I never encountered a single honey trap and it shattered my sense of self importance.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    Yes, absolutely right. If you’re in that top 10% of men getting all the attention, why settle down with one woman? You can have endless sexual variety into your 40s. A male fantasy come true

    This makes the most-desired men more commitment-phobic, which makes the women even more paranoid and yielding, and so the vicious cycle tightens

    The only choice for the beta minus men is to get rich. Easier said than done, of course
    Confession: I read the very unWoke books "The Game", "The Mystery Method", and "Millions of Women are Waiting to Meet You" in my 20s.

    They WORKED.

    I'd previously only had two relationships. After reading these, I had a far higher number (which I will not disclose) in the space of less than two years. I had a number of successful relationships (admittedly, all short-lived but that was partly through choice as I was a bit of a kamikaze) with extremely intelligent and beautiful young women. Amazing. And they are not supposed to "work", because they are all about demonstrating higher social value and the fact you don't care about the rules; you're fun, exciting and a risk-taker.

    Did I behave slightly selfishly and greedily? Yes. But, then, I met my wife, possibly through lessons and skills learned through this, calmed down and it all changed. But, the memories.

    Oh, the memories.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,102
    edited March 14
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    Of course if most people still waited until marriage for sex and then never divorced it would not be an issue
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    The first girl I lived with I met by landing on top of her after falling of an upright piano, she didn't seem in a hurry to get out from under me so I kissed her....my way was quicker
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670
    edited March 14
    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    I wasn't implying that, I meant more women are holding out for the perfect one rather than 50 years ago where they would settle for a good one.

    There is a reason the phrase "nice guys finish last" came about
    If women held out for the perfect one, the human race would have died out a long time ago.

    I am, it is true, not au fait with current dating. I do have a daughter who is. My impression is that what women want is what women have always wanted: love, commitment, kindness, fun and, to put it at its mildest, not being a slob or an arsehole.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    To be controversial (for a change :) )

    The header calls for men to change, I do wonder however women shouldn't also look at themselves and think about their behaviour. Now maybe I am unusual in this but I have known many women ditch boyfriends who were steady and respectful and stable for those that were shall we say less respectful. The habitual cheats and regularly unemployed and worse because apparently "well bob was sort of boring".

    I don't think its just me because girls like a bad boy has become somewhat of a cliche and certainly seen it happen. The bad boy however is also quite often the sort railed against in this thread.

    No before you say so not claiming its all womens fault by any means just that there is also as well as men behaving badly women rewarding them almost for being like that

    Yes - the number of women who voted for Trump despite his appalling behaviour and attitudes is evidence that women too can admire and reinforce bad behaviour. If we want better behaviour we all need to play our part.
    Methinks majority of women who voted for Trumpsky, did so DESPITE his sexual bad behavior NOT because of it.

    Certainly true for (most) evangelical Christina church ladies who voted for the swine.
    Indeed. But the effect of doing so was to send a message that his behaviour was not as unacceptable as all that.
    Quite correct. Same thing happened re: King David. Though the Bible WAS a bit critical re: Bathsheba's unfortunate hubby.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Some incels seriously make that argument, and it’s not *quite* as outrageous as it sounds

    Wait! I know, I know, but bear with me

    The argument goes like this: in modern, liberal western societies, we make sure no one goes completely without food. Or shelter. Or healthcare. Even if it’s their own damn fault, we don’t let anyone starve to death

    And yet we happily let men (and it is nearly all men) go completely without sex, which - the incels argue - is just as cruel, and just as emotionally damaging as starvation or homelessness.

    I can see their logic, however bitterly and insanely they express it. Sex is fundamental to human happiness, just like decent food and a bed.

    Tho how you develop universal credit for sex I dunno. Some say the government should pay sex workers to gratify incels.

    In the end, as I say, sex bots will be the answer. Eventually
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    The first girl I lived with I met by landing on top of her after falling of an upright piano, she didn't seem in a hurry to get out from under me so I kissed her....my way was quicker
    Your efficiency is to be admired.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    Second or third date in my experience. First date was always stigmatised in my time as a ONS type of affair, and wouldn't say something good about either party.

    That stigma has now gone??
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    When do people swap nude photos in a relationship these days ? I constantly read all these articles about how "my picture ended up on site xyz" and am thinking err...
    I've got yours saved as a jpeg in mydocuments, big boy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,096
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
    It may well surprise you, but there are other ways of meeting women than Tinder.

    While I haven't been on the pull for 35 years, neither of my boys has been short of girl friends and girlfriends, met through friends or shared interests. Indeed, with his interest in theatre and art, Fox Jr2 is very popular with the girls.
    The apps seem to be a real London phenomenon.

    All my mates who live elsewhere met their partners through mutual friends, at work etc. Those in London, increasingly, on apps.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,866
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Indeed, and little recognition that treating women as notches on a bedpost is a form of misogyny itself.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    Maybe, but don't the stats show that 80-90% of people get married?

    So, most men do find a woman?

    Admittedly, this might mean just 1-2 sexual partners, when the top 10% get 30-50 each, and those they are marrying aren't necessarily their ideal preferred partner, but it's not like 90% of men are incels on the rampage.
    Not sure where you get 90%

    Quote
    Patterns of marital status in England and Wales have changed over time. In 2018, just over half of the population (50.5%) in England and Wales were married. The second-largest proportion was the single (never married or civil-partnered) population at 35.0%, followed by divorced at 8.0%, widowed at 6.4% and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    Source
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationestimatesbymaritalstatusandlivingarrangements/2018#:~:text=In 2018, just over half,and civil partnered at 0.2%.

    As far as I understand that 35% is a growing figure
    Ok, 65% at any one time.

    I must admit I'm surprised by 35% - higher than I'd thought - although, of course, it'd cover everyone under 30 years old who is yet to marry, as well as bachelors and spinsters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    Second or third date in my experience. First date was always stigmatised in my time as a ONS type of affair, and wouldn't say something good about either party.

    That stigma has now gone??
    For sure
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:


    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    I wasn't implying that, I meant more women are holding out for the perfect one rather than 50 years ago where they would settle for a good one.

    There is a reason the phrase "nice guys finish last" came about
    If women held out for the perfect one, the human race would have died out a long time ago.

    I am, it is true, not au fait with current dating. I do have a daughter who is. My impression is that what women want is what women have always wanted: love, commitment, kindness, fun and, to put it at its mildest, not being a slob or an arsehole.
    My point was more that is how we seem to be heading with dating apps these days, used to be you would find the best available partner in your town and grab him or her and hold onto them. Now you can constantly search out something a little better with a swipe
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,866
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
    It may well surprise you, but there are other ways of meeting women than Tinder.

    While I haven't been on the pull for 35 years, neither of my boys has been short of girl friends and girlfriends, met through friends or shared interests. Indeed, with his interest in theatre and art, Fox Jr2 is very popular with the girls.
    The apps seem to be a real London phenomenon.

    All my mates who live elsewhere met their partners through mutual friends, at work etc. Those in London, increasingly, on apps.

    Fox Jr2 lives in London.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Some incels seriously make that argument, and it’s not *quite* as outrageous as it sounds

    Wait! I know, I know, but bear with me

    The argument goes like this: in modern, liberal western societies, we make sure no one goes completely without food. Or shelter. Or healthcare. Even if it’s their own damn fault, we don’t let anyone starve to death

    And yet we happily let men (and it is nearly all men) go completely without sex, which - the incels argue - is just as cruel, and just as emotionally damaging as starvation or homelessness.

    I can see their logic, however bitterly and insanely they express it. Sex is fundamental to human happiness, just like decent food and a bed.

    Tho how you develop universal credit for sex I dunno. Some say the government should pay sex workers to gratify incels.

    In the end, as I say, sex bots will be the answer. Eventually
    So what about women who have to go without sex because there are no decent men around? Or do you think that women - of all ages - don't have strong sexual desires?

    What happens to their unrequited lust? Do they go round threatening to do terrible things if they don't get gorgeous hunk of their choice to service their needs?

    Because this incel view of the world does seem to assume that women are there to be done to but are presumed to have no active desires or wishes of their own. Which does rather sound like the sort of view pushed by porn - on which see my header.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,002
    Isn't dating a breach of Covid protocol at the moment :) ?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,670

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    The first girl I lived with I met by landing on top of her after falling of an upright piano, she didn't seem in a hurry to get out from under me so I kissed her....my way was quicker
    Your efficiency is to be admired.
    I want to know what he was doing on top of the upright piano. It sounds very Laurel and Hardy-esque.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Some incels seriously make that argument, and it’s not *quite* as outrageous as it sounds

    Wait! I know, I know, but bear with me

    The argument goes like this: in modern, liberal western societies, we make sure no one goes completely without food. Or shelter. Or healthcare. Even if it’s their own damn fault, we don’t let anyone starve to death

    And yet we happily let men (and it is nearly all men) go completely without sex, which - the incels argue - is just as cruel, and just as emotionally damaging as starvation or homelessness.

    I can see their logic, however bitterly and insanely they express it. Sex is fundamental to human happiness, just like decent food and a bed.

    Tho how you develop universal credit for sex I dunno. Some say the government should pay sex workers to gratify incels.

    In the end, as I say, sex bots will be the answer. Eventually
    So what about women who have to go without sex because there are no decent men around? Or do you think that women - of all ages - don't have strong sexual desires?

    What happens to their unrequited lust? Do they go round threatening to do terrible things if they don't get gorgeous hunk of their choice to service their needs?

    Because this incel view of the world does seem to assume that women are there to be done to but are presumed to have no active desires or wishes of their own. Which does rather sound like the sort of view pushed by porn - on which see my header.
    There are no excuses for the incel view
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    When do people swap nude photos in a relationship these days ? I constantly read all these articles about how "my picture ended up on site xyz" and am thinking err...
    Some do it within hours of first meeting (online). Even before the first physical date. It seems crazy dangerous to me, especially the girls - it is usually girls sexting men - but that’s how it goes these days
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    When do people swap nude photos in a relationship these days ? I constantly read all these articles about how "my picture ended up on site xyz" and am thinking err...
    Some do it within hours of first meeting (online). Even before the first physical date. It seems crazy dangerous to me, especially the girls - it is usually girls sexting men - but that’s how it goes these days
    Some do it before meeting cf services like chatroulette
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,671

    The Sunday Times carries an interesting article about the German Greens.

    Essentially, they have adopted a more pro-business, economically liberal approach (stripping off CDU voters) whilst also maintaining their counter-cultural/radical vibe too, and thus stripping off SDP, so they get enough votes to win.

    A bit of a textbook case of "AND" politics; riding two horses at once.

    Proper liberalism, unlike our own watermelon "Greens".

    I thought in Germany that was typically the FDP?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    Heh. I used to assume 2nd - 3rd date. I’m guessing there’s 10-15 years between us so it must have been declining in a straight line.
    When I was at university in the mid-70s many students were attached - ie 'going steady' - but not having sex.I know of couples who had been together for several years , yet not become physically intimate. It was by no means uncommon to adhere to 'chastity until marriage.' We often would speculate as to whether X and Y were sleeping together - but never assumed that they were. Quite a few clearly did 'go all the way' - though that usually took months rather than weeks - whilst many did not.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    I do feel sorry for kids today. Getting to know women in the real world, spending time getting drunk with them (initially in larger groups), and then eventually falling into a consensual relationship was my main dating technique. Closely followed by “sod it the worst she can say is no” leading to a lot of first dates. None of that quote works if you live through the filter of the internet.
    Not even that given how far the acceptable boundaries seem to have shifted. We've moved a long way in a very short space of time when the only absolutely hard and fast rule was to not engage in sex without clear consent.
    Sex on the first date is now the norm. A pretty huge change from my youth, when it was third date. And a vast gulf from 150 years ago, when you had to wait until you were nearly dead
    When do people swap nude photos in a relationship these days ? I constantly read all these articles about how "my picture ended up on site xyz" and am thinking err...
    Some do it within hours of first meeting (online). Even before the first physical date. It seems crazy dangerous to me, especially the girls - it is usually girls sexting men - but that’s how it goes these days
    I think Industry tries to show a little bit of this (arguably The Bridge too several years earlier, but she was outwardly autistic) and it's made it much more transactional.

    I met everyone through house parties or clubs, and then we exchanged Facebook details and followed up that way. Always started with a drink, and maybe a nice meal first in a swish restaurant, and then a club or two.

    If that all went well- and we both were having fun and comfortable with each other - then it could end in a home run but it'd strictly count as a prolonged second date, as we'd already "met" before.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832

    Confession: I read the very unWoke books "The Game", "The Mystery Method", and "Millions of Women are Waiting to Meet You" in my 20s.

    The guy who wrote the last one used to post on here.

    Bit of an arse...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,412

    The Sunday Times carries an interesting article about the German Greens.

    Essentially, they have adopted a more pro-business, economically liberal approach (stripping off CDU voters) whilst also maintaining their counter-cultural/radical vibe too, and thus stripping off SDP, so they get enough votes to win.

    A bit of a textbook case of "AND" politics; riding two horses at once.

    Proper liberalism, unlike our own watermelon "Greens".

    I thought in Germany that was typically the FDP?
    Could it be that the greater political flexibility & pragmatism of German Greens compared with UK version, is proportional representation? Which encourages - indeed increasingly demands - coaltions?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,125

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    Yes, absolutely right. If you’re in that top 10% of men getting all the attention, why settle down with one woman? You can have endless sexual variety into your 40s. A male fantasy come true

    This makes the most-desired men more commitment-phobic, which makes the women even more paranoid and yielding, and so the vicious cycle tightens

    The only choice for the beta minus men is to get rich. Easier said than done, of course
    Confession: I read the very unWoke books "The Game", "The Mystery Method", and "Millions of Women are Waiting to Meet You" in my 20s.

    They WORKED.

    I'd previously only had two relationships. After reading these, I had a far higher number (which I will not disclose) in the space of less than two years. I had a number of successful relationships (admittedly, all short-lived but that was partly through choice as I was a bit of a kamikaze) with extremely intelligent and beautiful young women. Amazing. And they are not supposed to "work", because they are all about demonstrating higher social value and the fact you don't care about the rules; you're fun, exciting and a risk-taker.

    Did I behave slightly selfishly and greedily? Yes. But, then, I met my wife, possibly through lessons and skills learned through this, calmed down and it all changed. But, the memories.

    Oh, the memories.
    I noticed you "negging" Cyclefree earlier... old habits eh?!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Some incels seriously make that argument, and it’s not *quite* as outrageous as it sounds

    Wait! I know, I know, but bear with me

    The argument goes like this: in modern, liberal western societies, we make sure no one goes completely without food. Or shelter. Or healthcare. Even if it’s their own damn fault, we don’t let anyone starve to death

    And yet we happily let men (and it is nearly all men) go completely without sex, which - the incels argue - is just as cruel, and just as emotionally damaging as starvation or homelessness.

    I can see their logic, however bitterly and insanely they express it. Sex is fundamental to human happiness, just like decent food and a bed.

    Tho how you develop universal credit for sex I dunno. Some say the government should pay sex workers to gratify incels.

    In the end, as I say, sex bots will be the answer. Eventually
    So what about women who have to go without sex because there are no decent men around? Or do you think that women - of all ages - don't have strong sexual desires?

    What happens to their unrequited lust? Do they go round threatening to do terrible things if they don't get gorgeous hunk of their choice to service their needs?

    Because this incel view of the world does seem to assume that women are there to be done to but are presumed to have no active desires or wishes of their own. Which does rather sound like the sort of view pushed by porn - on which see my header.

    I am not remotely defending these people. I’m just saying their argument is not completely illogical, and it’s not. We see food and shelter as human rights, but not sex, even tho a life of unwanted celibacy must be utterly immiserating. It didn’t matter before because it was so rare. You married who you could, you didn’t have much choice. Nearly everyone found ‘someone’. Now there is infinite choice, which paradoxically means much more involuntary celibacy

    As for female desires, of course they exist. But, frankly, the disparity in basic libido between men (always horny) and women (much more choosy) means virtually no woman has to go completely without. If she wants sex, almost any young woman can get it pretty instantly - there are too many desperate unchoosy men who will eagerly agree
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,226
    Leon said:

    Some good articles on the rise of the incel, and how a lot of it is driven by tech like Tinder. A few alpha men get all the sex, huge numbers get none. At all


    ‘In the past decade there has been a three-fold increase in the number of men who have not had sex in the past year.‘

    https://unherd.com/2020/02/why-incels-are-the-losers-in-the-age-of-tinder/

    https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/social-media/2020/01/how-she-ghosted-me-men-being-radicalised-tinder-data

    Haven't they heard of masturbation?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    So, this is weird - Shamima Begum is now posing in designer western clothes in a western way for ...The Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/14/exclusive-shamima-begum-seen-make-up-western-clothes-seeks-break/
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,671
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    Incels are an example of the sort of of entitled male anger that is the problem. Men who make no concessions to being pleasant or respectful to women who believe they are entitled to sex. Too much time on the Internet watching porn, I suppose.

    It is not women who are to blame for their behaviour, nor their parents or teachers. They taught themselves to hate women, down a rabbit hole of their own choice.
    I had not previously heard the term “incel”. 20 minutes with google later... Jesus Christ!
    Yep. He was one. But not involuntary.
    Mary Magdalene might have differed on that opinion.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,992

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    They don’t have agency. The apps destroy it. If a girl always swipes left it doesn’t matter how witty or friendly you are

    You clearly don’t understand the basics of this change, I suggest you do some reading. Martha Gill - a journalist - has written several excellent pieces on this, and she’s crunched the numbers. There is also a growing body of social studies
    It may well surprise you, but there are other ways of meeting women than Tinder.

    While I haven't been on the pull for 35 years, neither of my boys has been short of girl friends and girlfriends, met through friends or shared interests. Indeed, with his interest in theatre and art, Fox Jr2 is very popular with the girls.
    Back in his misspent youth, my Daddy Dearest (a member of his high school football team) took home economics, partly to learn how to cook, but mostly to meet & hang out with girls.

    Suspect he focused on the latter, as his cooking was pretty rudimentary!
    In my mid-teens I did a course in shorthand and typing to be with a girl I fancied. I got a distinction in shorthand. Still got the certificate. And I still exchange Xmas cards with the girl. It happened over 60 years ago.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,963
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    Yes, absolutely right. If you’re in that top 10% of men getting all the attention, why settle down with one woman? You can have endless sexual variety into your 40s. A male fantasy come true

    This makes the most-desired men more commitment-phobic, which makes the women even more paranoid and yielding, and so the vicious cycle tightens

    The only choice for the beta minus men is to get rich. Easier said than done, of course
    Confession: I read the very unWoke books "The Game", "The Mystery Method", and "Millions of Women are Waiting to Meet You" in my 20s.

    They WORKED.

    I'd previously only had two relationships. After reading these, I had a far higher number (which I will not disclose) in the space of less than two years. I had a number of successful relationships (admittedly, all short-lived but that was partly through choice as I was a bit of a kamikaze) with extremely intelligent and beautiful young women. Amazing. And they are not supposed to "work", because they are all about demonstrating higher social value and the fact you don't care about the rules; you're fun, exciting and a risk-taker.

    Did I behave slightly selfishly and greedily? Yes. But, then, I met my wife, possibly through lessons and skills learned through this, calmed down and it all changed. But, the memories.

    Oh, the memories.
    I noticed you "negging" Cyclefree earlier... old habits eh?!
    It does risk the Lady Cyclefree thinking slightly less of me but I was a young hedonistic slightly reckless twenty-something once, and I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I'm not judged too harshly for it.

    I remember her once saying she was a bit naughty in her youth too, which gives me some grounds for hope, but she has the good sense not to share the details about it!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483
    It’s going to kick off a huge boom in US stocks and shares. The Roaring 20s indeed
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,839
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    It's almost as if some (many?) men think of women as booty to be shared out among them.

    Some incels seriously make that argument, and it’s not *quite* as outrageous as it sounds

    Wait! I know, I know, but bear with me

    The argument goes like this: in modern, liberal western societies, we make sure no one goes completely without food. Or shelter. Or healthcare. Even if it’s their own damn fault, we don’t let anyone starve to death

    And yet we happily let men (and it is nearly all men) go completely without sex, which - the incels argue - is just as cruel, and just as emotionally damaging as starvation or homelessness.

    I can see their logic, however bitterly and insanely they express it. Sex is fundamental to human happiness, just like decent food and a bed.

    Tho how you develop universal credit for sex I dunno. Some say the government should pay sex workers to gratify incels.

    In the end, as I say, sex bots will be the answer. Eventually
    So what about women who have to go without sex because there are no decent men around? Or do you think that women - of all ages - don't have strong sexual desires?

    What happens to their unrequited lust? Do they go round threatening to do terrible things if they don't get gorgeous hunk of their choice to service their needs?

    Because this incel view of the world does seem to assume that women are there to be done to but are presumed to have no active desires or wishes of their own. Which does rather sound like the sort of view pushed by porn - on which see my header.
    Many years ago I read a book which postulated that men see themselves/other men as 'people' and see women as 'women' - ie not 'people': also that women see themselves as 'women' rather than as 'people'.

    It does partly account for the attitude of being there to be done to.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
    And yet we ARE making progress there. After MeToo. Powerful men are much less likely to abuse that power, sexually, because society is much less tolerant. That’s good.

    It’s the powerLESS men we should be worried about. The incels. They are already one of the biggest terror threats in the USA
    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.
    They don’t tho. You’re being naive. Social media (and other changes) really have altered dating fundamentally. Read the links I posted, and others. There’s plenty of material out there. 80% of women compete for 10% of men.

    What has happened in many other human endeavors - from the arts to football teams to banking - is now happening to sex. A lucky few at the top do incredibly well and get all the money and glory. A huge chunk - the bottom half of the pyramid - get little or nothing.

    Trouble is, this is sex, not children’s fiction. So it has a grave potential to destabilize
    It is not just the incels losing out it is fair to note either, a lot of the top 5% now find they can have a different girl most nights and woman are increasingly opting to hold out for them, the bottom 5% which are the incels are getting no more than they ever did and the mid 90% of nice guys is getting a lower share
    Yes, absolutely right. If you’re in that top 10% of men getting all the attention, why settle down with one woman? You can have endless sexual variety into your 40s. A male fantasy come true

    This makes the most-desired men more commitment-phobic, which makes the women even more paranoid and yielding, and so the vicious cycle tightens

    The only choice for the beta minus men is to get rich. Easier said than done, of course
    Confession: I read the very unWoke books "The Game", "The Mystery Method", and "Millions of Women are Waiting to Meet You" in my 20s.

    They WORKED.

    I'd previously only had two relationships. After reading these, I had a far higher number (which I will not disclose) in the space of less than two years. I had a number of successful relationships (admittedly, all short-lived but that was partly through choice as I was a bit of a kamikaze) with extremely intelligent and beautiful young women. Amazing. And they are not supposed to "work", because they are all about demonstrating higher social value and the fact you don't care about the rules; you're fun, exciting and a risk-taker.

    Did I behave slightly selfishly and greedily? Yes. But, then, I met my wife, possibly through lessons and skills learned through this, calmed down and it all changed. But, the memories.

    Oh, the memories.
    I noticed you "negging" Cyclefree earlier... old habits eh?!
    It does risk the Lady Cyclefree thinking slightly less of me but I was a young hedonistic slightly reckless twenty-something once, and I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I'm not judged too harshly for it.

    I remember her once saying she was a bit naughty in her youth too, which gives me some grounds for hope, but she has the good sense not to share the details about it!
    Hmmm why do I expect the surprise sequel where we eventually find out you were one of cyclefrees youthful conquests much to both of your surprises?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,483

    So, this is weird - Shamima Begum is now posing in designer western clothes in a western way for ...The Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/14/exclusive-shamima-begum-seen-make-up-western-clothes-seeks-break/

    That’s... borderline creepy
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,137
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:



    They could try being nice to women. Plenty of women would welcome funny kind men who make them feel good.

    Exactly. They have agency, and are voluntary celibate rather than involuntary.

    It really isn't that hard to be nice to women. Sure, you might land in the friendzone, but that is a step in the right direction.
    Yes - and the working assumption that everyone wants loads of different partners, or even one partner, doesn't always hold up. A different girl every night? Fun for a week, sure, but in the long run many would feel it was getting to be a bit of a chore, even if everyone involved was happy about it. And I know a number of people of both sexes who've decided they'd rather live alone (just less hassle, they feel) and with luck have a sexy holiday with someone from time to time. They might regret it when they're 90 and in need of loving care, but for now it works for them.
This discussion has been closed.