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One Woman’s Perspective – politicalbetting.com

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  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,186

    Big three weeks coming up in the UK fight against COVID:

    Deaths: now 1,000 a week. Falling quickly, Boris will want to see this down to 200 in Easter week, three weeks time. Possible on current rate of fall.

    Hospitalisations: now 8,000 in hospital. Boris will be looking for 2,000 by Easter Sunday. Again possible.

    Vaccinations: hopefully we are now seeing the impact of the new supply, maybe 0.5m per day plus start of significant progress on 2nd dose, maybe 50% first dose 10% second dose done by Easter.

    Cases: will they soar with all the extra testing? Early signs say no, but we need to watch the figures in the next few weeks. But 'cases' on their own are not in the four key criteria identified by the Government.

    Summary: if all of the above happens we are on track, maybe then scope to accelerate 17 May/21 June relaxations.

    Don't know about seconds but we should be through halfway on the firsts before the end of the week.

    I don't expect the unlocking to be hurried along but so long as it doesn't get significantly later I'll be satisfied.

    The other thing to keep an eye on (if you're in England) is the NHS booking website. It's currently still stuck at 55+, but hopefully the age requirement will be dropped again this week.
    I think that if the existing unlocking timetable can be kept to - and there is no need to go backwards - then most people will be satisfied!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,299
    Tres said:

    Cyclefree said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Truly excellent post by Cyclefree, and one that PBers - especially those of us in the Y-chromosome contingent - should re-read and REALLY take to heart.

    Sorry the thred's been somewhat hijacked by the Megahan nonsense but well that's life I guess.

    On THAT, my own view is that the Duchess of Sussex would be a BETTER bet for the White House that say, Baby Don or anyone else named Trump(sky).

    Really?

    This is all irrelevant to me, and I hope to the vast majority of PBers, as neither a perpetrator, enabler nor condoner of any of this stuff. But, oh look, a visible-a-mile-off little booby trap has been cunningly incorporated into the piece to stop me saying that: "there is something narcissistic (grotesque even) about the rush by some men to focus on how they are not to blame, should not be victimised and should not have their freedoms curbed." I am not rushing to focus on anything, I don't claim to be victimised or to have had my freedoms curbed, I have yet to say anything at all on the subject and I am saying this now merely to rebut the insinuation to the contrary in the piece. We are not all guilty.
    Oh dear. You will be accused of "whining".

    Having spent a lifetime being never a perpetrator, enabler nor condoner of any of this stuff, I have huge sympathy for women who suffer the horrors meted out by that smallish percentage of twattish blokes who think they can use their physical form or belief in some inherent male advantage of "the system". But marking all our cards gets women nowhere, other than embedding the victimhood. Recruits us, don't paint us as all part of the problem.

    I don't paint all men as part of the problem. And you clearly have not read the last paragraph.

    "To change a culture for the better, all must play their part. Men have a vital role to play to change the world in which women live – as allies, as champions, as teachers, as exemplars, as defenders – so that, whether they are 18 or 80, women can live their lives to the fullest and without fear of men behaving badly."

    Which bit of this do you have a problem with?
    Hmm. I think yesterday @MarqueeMark posted some reservations about painting all men as part of the problem.

    You weren't on the thread much but suddenly popped up and went for him with both barrels posting a polemic in response starting with "Oh, do stop whining.."

    Not surprisingly, that turned him off. And it got close to turning me off too.

    I think we all want this unfair skewing of risk and responsibility against women to end. But the words and language you use to mobilise your allies is important, and needs to be measured - not uncompromising.
    Yes, some men are such petite buttercups that you have got to speak gently to them to avoid them getting all emotional.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6wetejGqh0
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,159

    In terms of the response to this, I do worry that the most likely action on this is that the policing of language (censoring any word ending with the syllable 'man') will be turned up to eleven, and that men will be lectured by E&DI advisors on the problems they cause for women in the workplace. They might even be encouraged to do an exercise to think of examples of where their behaviour (or another's behaviour) might have caused problems for women.

    One unintended consequence of this will be that some men will try to minimise their interactions with their female colleagues above what's essential as they will think they're treading on eggshells, be coy about telling women what they really think, and will minimise socialising with women after work for fear of misinterpretation or misunderstanding. I've seen some of this happen already, surprisingly amongst younger male staff too, in particular, who were terrified of saying or doing the wrong thing and tried to pretend they weren't attracted to any too.

    I used to regularly have lunches and coffees 1:1 with other women at work (which I enjoyed) and occasionally got comments, yes, that "(I) fancied so and so" but social interaction is where you really find out about a person and what makes them tick and, crucially, it's where a lot of professional networking conversations take place, which are absolutely crucial for career advancement and women getting ahead.

    So, I ignored the comments, and the Woke vibe, and ploughed on, because I enjoyed their company and their conversations. I even found one or two of them attractive but there's a difference between recognising that and acting on it sexually and inappropriately. And they told me they appreciated how rare it was that I took an interest in them, and listened to them, as people.

    As a result my friendship network and professional network is broader and more 'balanced' than it otherwise would be. So I think there's a lot to be said for it.

    Completely agree with your approach CR and take a similar one myself. The co-founder of my new venture inside the bank is a woman and we've spoken at length on how best we can attract women into the available jobs that we've got, the adverts have been written differently and the benefits reflect the modern era of being a working mother or woman of child bearing age.

    One of the other measures we're taking is to try and get our intake of juniors to a more even level, the wider organisation is probably 70/30 and we're aiming for 50/50. I know the cynics will say why not at all levels and only junior - we realised that the issue starts right at the bottom and the only way to fix it is to recruit more women at the junior ranks and give them experience and training so that they can advance their careers in the same way as so many men do in the industry. It's difficult to hire senior women because so few of them exist as not enough were given the chance 10-15 years ago.

    We've realised that creating a workplace fit for men and women is a truly great place for everyone to work, socialise and grow both professional and personally.

    Ultimately, our standards aren't going to change for who we hire, they're still really high. The way we've written the adverts has helped bring more women into the funnel and I think that's something all industries need to do and all interviewers should be trained on asking the right questions rather than unnecessarily aggressive tactics that I got used to using becuase it's what I was subjected to earlier on in my own career.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    Meanwhile, back at the ranch (or rather golf course) . . .

    Politico.com - Trump was supposed to be a political Godzilla in exile. Instead, he’s adrift.
    Even allies say the president is lacking an apparatus and direction as he sorts out just what he wants to do in his post-presidency.

    He backed away from creating a third party and has soured on the costly prospect of launching his own TV empire or social media startup.

    His vow to target disloyal Republicans with personally-recruited primary challengers has taken a backseat to conventional endorsements of senators who refused to indulge his quest to overturn the 2020 election.

    And though he was supposed to build a massive political apparatus to keep his MAGA movement afloat, it’s unclear to Republicans what his PAC is actually doing, beyond entangling itself in disputes with Republican icons and the party’s fundraising arms.

    Ex-president Donald Trump finds himself adrift while in political exile. And Republicans, and even some allies, say he is disorganized, torn between playing the role of antagonist and party leader.

    “There is no apparatus, no structure and part of that is due to a lack of political understanding on Trump’s behalf,” said a person close to the former president, noting that Trump has struggled to learn the ropes of post-presidential politicking. . . . .

    The version of Trump that has emerged in the month and a half since he left office is far from the political godzilla many expected him to be. He was supposed to unleash hell on a party apparatus that recoiled when his supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 and declined to fiercely defend him during his second impeachment. Instead, Trump has maintained close ties to GOP officials who have committed to supporting incumbents, stayed almost entirely out of the spotlight, delivered fairly anodyne remarks the one time he emerged, and offered only sparse criticism of his successor, Joe Biden.

    The cumulative result is political whiplash, as the former president shifts from wanting to support the GOP with his resources and grassroots appeal one day to refocusing on his own brand and thirst for vengeance the next. In the past week alone, Trump has gone from threatening party bodies for using his name and likeness in their fundraising efforts to offering up his Mar-a-Lago estate as a host site for part of the Republican National Committee’s spring donor retreat. He savagely attacked veteran GOP operative Karl Rove for criticizing his first post-presidency speech at the annual Conservative Political Action Committee, and endorsed Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kan.), who repeatedly scrutinized Trump’s own trade practices while in office. . . . .

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/14/trump-post-presidency-475733
  • Spurs really are a dirty side.

    Kane & Lamela both deserve to go.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245
    edited March 14
    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,633

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,172
    edited March 14

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Omnium said:

    The good old days of policing when they weren't a shouty aggressive militia.

    https://twitter.com/MarcDavenant/status/1370999581132079104

    The police are the good guys. They may not always get 'being the good guys' right but that's their role. I think it's a very ugly thing to say otherwise.
    I don't even understand the point you are trying to make. It's ugly to criticise the police when they deviate from the role they are supposed to uphold?

    Surely if that is their role it is our duty to point out if they do not live up to it, to push them into doing so?
    My point was that they are not "a shouty aggressive militia" as TSE suggested. I thought it was pretty clear.
    I was taking the piss out of the prize idiot Peter Hitchens, who appears to be unaware of things like Black Friday, the Tonypandy riots, and the history of the RUC.

    https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1371060326813331462
    So to make a barb at Hitchins you chose to tarnish the police force with a slur? Wasn't there some talk of a moral compass?
    It was Hitchens who said the Feds were a "shouty aggressive militia".
    So TSE accusing the police generally of this can be excused by the suggestion that Peter Hitchens once said something along the same lines and that TSE is actually both using this as an excuse for offence and a protective defence?

    If you say so.

    I thought you were a big fan of Pompous Pete?
    Please explain. I've never heard of the phrase/person.

    Edit: Sorry - I guess you mean Hitchens - no, you brought his name into this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,159
    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809

    Brom said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Government getting the blame for last night...

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1371142781234733059?s=20

    Depressing viewing.
    They probably think that abusing the female Home Secretary is in some way big, clever, and not at all self-defeating...
    These people won’t settle until the police are defunded. Too many on PB defending them last night when it was clear the rabble causing trouble were not there to remember Sarah Everard but merely to cause division.
    No most are measured here about the police the only extremist is you claiming the police can do no wrong when all evidence does show they fuck up constantly
    I don’t say they do no wrong, I’m saying last night they did the right thing. The difference is I knew the type of people involved last night and now the mask has slipped there’s a lot of backtracking.

    If you’re still on the side of this rabble then more fool you. Baying for blood and resignations won’t make the streets safer.
    If you think the police did the right thing last night then, well, I only hope you’re in the extreme minority. I have no doubt a lot of the protestors would be politically motivated, have nothing to do with the victim, and would hate me; but you either believe in proportionate policing or you don’t. Last night was the wrong approach.
    Whether the police could have acted differently last night (and clearly it was a PR disaster, if not worse) i really don't think you can overlook the extent to which the principle of employing "proportionate policing" has been undermined by the ramping up of laws against protesting under the Coronavirus legislation.

    Remember at the time of BLM last year, mass demonstrations weren't explicitly outlawed - albeit they had to be agreed in advance and required masking and social distancing etc. Since when the law has been significantly tightened with the message from the Government (and not just in relation to protests but across the board) has been one of zero tolerance and prosecute/fine to the max. A message that the police seem to have responded to enthusiastically, but no doubt to the approval of the Home Secretary.

    When one considers that the protest last night was even explicitly banned by the courts, with organisers urging doorstep vigils etc, i think it is almost certain that they would have thought that they had the tacit support of the Government, whatever they might say now.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 14
    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Another variable is those of us who have worked in big cities where you come across them more and the police are (in my experience) 10-15% unpleasant and 85-90% great. I am very conscious that I only get to challenge and push back at the 10-15% because I am a white middle class male*. Some friends of mine have had very different experiences.

    *Top tip, if a police officer is being heavy handed and unpleasant, they really hate you asking under which powers they are doing what they are doing. They rarely know, and they therefore mostly back down.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,633
    IanB2 said:

    Karma really has it in for the clown.

    First he had to implement Brexit, which he never believed in in the first place and never expected to win.

    Then along came the pandemic, with its relentless gloomy news, requiring hard work, attention to detail, quick decisions, and a willingness to curtail people’s liberties, cruelly exposing almost all of his flaws as a national leader.

    Just as he thought the end is in sight, the next issue on his plate will be....sexism and respect for women.

    And after the Boris Bridge being one of several failures or appropriations to be attached to his name, BJ is going to try and implement one of the most difficult and hazardous bridge building projects seen for virtually no economic benefits and supported only by the DUP. Magnifique!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,520
    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Once we get to under 40s, if we're still going at the same rate and cases are still low, then there will be a lot of pressure to accelerate the reopening timetable.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,354
    alex_ said:

    Brom said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Government getting the blame for last night...

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1371142781234733059?s=20

    Depressing viewing.
    They probably think that abusing the female Home Secretary is in some way big, clever, and not at all self-defeating...
    These people won’t settle until the police are defunded. Too many on PB defending them last night when it was clear the rabble causing trouble were not there to remember Sarah Everard but merely to cause division.
    No most are measured here about the police the only extremist is you claiming the police can do no wrong when all evidence does show they fuck up constantly
    I don’t say they do no wrong, I’m saying last night they did the right thing. The difference is I knew the type of people involved last night and now the mask has slipped there’s a lot of backtracking.

    If you’re still on the side of this rabble then more fool you. Baying for blood and resignations won’t make the streets safer.
    If you think the police did the right thing last night then, well, I only hope you’re in the extreme minority. I have no doubt a lot of the protestors would be politically motivated, have nothing to do with the victim, and would hate me; but you either believe in proportionate policing or you don’t. Last night was the wrong approach.
    Whether the police could have acted differently last night (and clearly it was a PR disaster, if not worse) i really don't think you can overlook the extent to which the principle of employing "proportionate policing" has been undermined by the ramping up of laws against protesting under the Coronavirus legislation.

    Remember at the time of BLM last year, mass demonstrations weren't explicitly outlawed - albeit they had to be agreed in advance and required masking and social distancing etc. Since when the law has been significantly tightened with the message from the Government (and not just in relation to protests but across the board) has been one of zero tolerance and prosecute/fine to the max. A message that the police seem to have responded to enthusiastically, but no doubt to the approval of the Home Secretary.

    When one considers that the protest last night was even explicitly banned by the courts, with organisers urging doorstep vigils etc, i think it is almost certain that they would have thought that they had the tacit support of the Government, whatever they might say now.
    How many times have (some of) us on here said what the likely consequences of this past year of unprecedented restrictions of our freedoms might be.

    Just the pandemic, right? Except wrong. Now it's demonstrations by women following a horrific abduction and murder.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Can I add those of us who have had professional dealings with the police.

    Consider this a public service announcement, never believe the police when they say this will all be so quickly without a solicitor present and a caution means you can leave here without a stain on your character.

    1) Always have legal representation when being questioned by the rozzers.

    2) Never ever accept a caution.
    Learnt that early on in life
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Another variable is those of us who have worked in big cities where you come across them more and the police are (in my experience) 10-15% unpleasant and 85-90% great. I am very conscious that I only get to challenge and push back at the 10-15% because I am a white middle class male*. Some friends of mine have had very different experiences.

    *Top tip, if a police officer is being heavy handed and unpleasant, they really hate you asking under which powers they are doing what they are doing. They rarely know, and they therefore mostly back down.
    I actually have a printed copy of pace to refer to constantly in my jacket pocket
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    alex_ said:

    Brom said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    Government getting the blame for last night...

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1371142781234733059?s=20

    Depressing viewing.
    They probably think that abusing the female Home Secretary is in some way big, clever, and not at all self-defeating...
    These people won’t settle until the police are defunded. Too many on PB defending them last night when it was clear the rabble causing trouble were not there to remember Sarah Everard but merely to cause division.
    No most are measured here about the police the only extremist is you claiming the police can do no wrong when all evidence does show they fuck up constantly
    I don’t say they do no wrong, I’m saying last night they did the right thing. The difference is I knew the type of people involved last night and now the mask has slipped there’s a lot of backtracking.

    If you’re still on the side of this rabble then more fool you. Baying for blood and resignations won’t make the streets safer.
    If you think the police did the right thing last night then, well, I only hope you’re in the extreme minority. I have no doubt a lot of the protestors would be politically motivated, have nothing to do with the victim, and would hate me; but you either believe in proportionate policing or you don’t. Last night was the wrong approach.
    Whether the police could have acted differently last night (and clearly it was a PR disaster, if not worse) i really don't think you can overlook the extent to which the principle of employing "proportionate policing" has been undermined by the ramping up of laws against protesting under the Coronavirus legislation.

    Remember at the time of BLM last year, mass demonstrations weren't explicitly outlawed - albeit they had to be agreed in advance and required masking and social distancing etc. Since when the law has been significantly tightened with the message from the Government (and not just in relation to protests but across the board) has been one of zero tolerance and prosecute/fine to the max. A message that the police seem to have responded to enthusiastically, but no doubt to the approval of the Home Secretary.

    When one considers that the protest last night was even explicitly banned by the courts, with organisers urging doorstep vigils etc, i think it is almost certain that they would have thought that they had the tacit support of the Government, whatever they might say now.
    All fair points, but I still think a competent commander would have said “softly, softly, let’s take all the circumstances into account”.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,277
    edited March 14
    Leon said:

    Fuck them, then. A noble cause already hijacked by the usual wankers.

    I loathe this All Cops Are Bastards crap. Dehumanizing and offensive and juvenile.
    I agree with you, however I am astounded by some of those who have given you a "like". Yesterday evening some of them had gone into full Corbynista Anarchist, we hate the police mode. Thankfully normal service has been resumed, and they all love the Old Bill again, bless!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,932

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967
    edited March 14

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809
    edited March 14

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?


    TSE clearly just wants to promote him to knock him down, such is his instinctive dislike of monarchy ;)

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,277
    edited March 14

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Can I add those of us who have had professional dealings with the police.

    Consider this a public service announcement, never believe the police when they say this will all be so quickly without a solicitor present and a caution means you can leave here without a stain on your character.

    1) Always have legal representation when being questioned by the rozzers.

    2) Never ever accept a caution.
    When my autistic son was diagnosed in the 2000s, the advice you have provided was exactly the same as that given by an autism specialist Consultant at the Heath Hospital in Cardiff. He cited Stefan Kizsko as an extreme example.

    Sound advice.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,567
    kle4 said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?
    Rex Walensium
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,221
    The updated exit polls from the German provincial elections in Baden-Wurttemburg and Rheinland-Pfalz are through.

    In Baden, the Greens are on 30.9% and the CDU on 23.9%, the AfD on 12.5% and the FDP on 11.5% with the SPD on 10.7%. That's a strong result for the FDP and the Greens can feel pretty happy as well - disappointing for the CDU and SPD and also AfD who have fallen back a little from 2016.

    The Greens are set for 53 seats in the new Landtag (+6) and the CDU 39 (-3) with AfD on 21 (-2) and FDP on 20 (+8) and the SPD on 18 (-1). The old Landtag had 143 seats but the new one looks set to have 153 members.

    If correct, this will be the worst result for both the CDU and SPD in Baden since 1952.

    In Rheinland-Palatinate, the current poll numbers are SPD 34.2% CDU 26.5%, AfD 9.8%, Greens 8.5%, FDP 6.0% and Free voters 5.9%. Compared to 2016, the SPD are down 2%, the CDU are down 5.3%, the AfD are down 2.8%, the Greens are up 3.2% and the FDP down 0.2%.

    The Free Voters are coming into the Landtag for the first time - an equivalent group in Bavaria won 27 seats in 2018.

    In terms of seats, the SPD are on 38 (-1), the CDU on 30 (-5), AfD 11 (-3), Greens 9 (+3) and FDP 7 (uc) with the Free Voters on 6 (+6).

    In Baden, the Greens can either continue with the CDU or dump them for an alternative alignment with the FDP and SPD while in Rheinland-Palatinate the SPD can form a majority with Greens and FDP.

    It's worth stressing this is another poor result for the CDU in a state which it used to dominate - it's again the worst result of the party since 1952 - back in 1983 the CDU won 52% of the vote so that vote has halved.

    The latest national poll has the CDU/CSU on 31% with the Greens second on 19% and the SPD third on 16%.
  • kle4 said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?
    Well we have the title of Master of the Horse, how about Master of the Sheep?

    But we really should go all Idi Amin, and give him many titles.

    His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,507
    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186

    Leon said:

    Fuck them, then. A noble cause already hijacked by the usual wankers.

    I loathe this All Cops Are Bastards crap. Dehumanizing and offensive and juvenile.
    I agree with you, however I am astounded by some of those who have given you a "like". Yesterday evening some of them had gone into full Corbynista Anarchist, we hate the police mode. Thankfully normal service has been resumed, and they all love the Old Bill again, bless!
    Or

    We accept that a lot of police try to do the right thing whilst being clear that last night was a disgrace.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,245

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Can I add those of us who have had professional dealings with the police.

    Consider this a public service announcement, never believe the police when they say this will all be so quickly without a solicitor present and a caution means you can leave here without a stain on your character.

    1) Always have legal representation when being questioned by the rozzers.

    2) Never ever accept a caution.
    When my autistic son was diagnosed in the 2000s, the advice you have provided was exactly the same as that given by an autism specialist Consultant at the Heath Hospital in Cardiff. He cited Stefan Kizsko as an extreme example.

    Sound advice.
    Not just advice for the autistic
    My late step father was always gung ho for the police, if you were arrested in his mind that meant you must be guilty...

    Then an incident occurred where his puppy was stolen from his garden. Being cornwall he rang the police and they said would be about 4 hours but as the thief had legged it up the coastal path and he knew where it came out he drove round and headed off the thief.

    He said to me "I grabbed him by the coat and demanded the puppy back and scared him so got it back". My response was when the police turn up don't tell them that. His response was "don't be stupid"

    The police came he told them, he was quite shocked to get a phone call the next day saying that as they hadn't found the thief they would not be prosecuting him for assault as they had no witness
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,567
    Floater said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck them, then. A noble cause already hijacked by the usual wankers.

    I loathe this All Cops Are Bastards crap. Dehumanizing and offensive and juvenile.
    I agree with you, however I am astounded by some of those who have given you a "like". Yesterday evening some of them had gone into full Corbynista Anarchist, we hate the police mode. Thankfully normal service has been resumed, and they all love the Old Bill again, bless!
    Or

    We accept that a lot of police try to do the right thing whilst being clear that last night was a disgrace.
    I don't think that's a controversial statement.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967
    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
    I think that is not correct. Or it should not be -- otherwise areas with larger number of older people will lag behind areas with mainly younger people.

    If you want to get the old & vulnerable vaccinated everywhere as quickly as possible, then the proportion of vaccines received in any health area should scale with the proportion of older people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,159

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Once we get to under 40s, if we're still going at the same rate and cases are still low, then there will be a lot of pressure to accelerate the reopening timetable.
    Yes, especially if the second dose programme has done >90% groups 1-6 by the end of April, which seems possible.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 14

    kle4 said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?
    Well we have the title of Master of the Horse, how about Master of the Sheep?

    But we really should go all Idi Amin, and give him many titles.

    His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular
    Surely we have now reached the point that “Mark Drakeford” is all he needs, and it’s other world leaders who will now wish to be known as “the Mark Drakeford of X”?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,366
    edited March 14


    Well we have the title of Master of the Horse, how about Master of the Sheep?

    But we really should go all Idi Amin, and give him many titles.

    His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular

    I'd go for "Emperor of the Known Universe"

    https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Padishah_Emperor
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Can I add those of us who have had professional dealings with the police.

    Consider this a public service announcement, never believe the police when they say this will all be so quickly without a solicitor present and a caution means you can leave here without a stain on your character.

    1) Always have legal representation when being questioned by the rozzers.

    2) Never ever accept a caution.
    Very sound advice
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,277

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    Don't undersell Boris and RT please. The official line is Johnson procured for, and managed the vaccination programme in Wales, whilst Drakeford mismanaged the lockdowns.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,471
    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
  • Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Can I add those of us who have had professional dealings with the police.

    Consider this a public service announcement, never believe the police when they say this will all be so quickly without a solicitor present and a caution means you can leave here without a stain on your character.

    1) Always have legal representation when being questioned by the rozzers.

    2) Never ever accept a caution.
    When my autistic son was diagnosed in the 2000s, the advice you have provided was exactly the same as that given by an autism specialist Consultant at the Heath Hospital in Cardiff. He cited Stefan Kizsko as an extreme example.

    Sound advice.
    My friend's autistic brother nearly got tasered by the rozzers, it was only thanks to his neighbours, who pretty much formed a human shield in front of him, that things de-escalated.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,186

    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.

    Let's hope Boris stands firm if this happens and continues to focus on the 4 key criteria which don't directly include cases.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,414

    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.

    Pleasantly surprised that didn't happen this week - although clearly the cases number has been pumped up, it hasn't gone backwards.

    LFD positives were 2/3rds confirmed by PCR a month ago. Now it's less than 1/3rd. Fortunately the underlying decline (ZOE down 10% today) is strong enough to outweight this nonsense.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809
    edited March 14

    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
    I think that is not correct. Or it should not be -- otherwise areas with larger number of older people will lag behind areas with mainly younger people.

    If you want to get the old & vulnerable vaccinated everywhere as quickly as possible, then the proportion of vaccines received in any health area should scale with the proportion of older people.
    Vaccine procurement may have been UK competence, but i believe that vaccine distribution is a devolved matter. So the Government would have been asking for serious political trouble if they distributed vaccines to Scotland/Wales/NI (and other UK dependencies) on anything other than a pro-rata basis.

    And whilst all UK nations are broadly following similar vaccination strategies (old and vulnerable first) that is largely because all their scientists are giving similar advice - they are free to follow their own path if they want (eg. i think Scotland prioritised care homes at first more than others).


  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    AP (via New Haven Register) - Merkel's party suffers defeats in 2 German state elections

    "Amid discontent over a sluggish start to Germany’s vaccination drive, with coronavirus restrictions easing only gradually and infections rising again, Merkel’s Union bloc has been hit over the past two weeks by allegations that two lawmakers profited from deals to procure masks early in the coronavirus pandemic.

    Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union already faced a challenging task against the states' well-liked governors. Projections for ARD and ZDF public television, based on exit polls and a partial count of votes, indicated that those governors’ parties -- the environmentalist Greens in Baden-Wuerttemberg and the center-left Social Democrats in Rhineland-Palatinate -- were set to finish first, 7 to 9 percentage points ahead of the CDU. The CDU's showings of about 23% and 26%, respectively, would be the party's worst since World War II in both states.

    “To say it very clearly, this isn't a good election evening for the CDU,” said the party's general secretary, Paul Ziemiak. “We would have liked different, better results.” . . . .

    In Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany's only Green party governor, Winfried Kretschmann, has become popular with centrist . . . Kretschmann, 72, a fatherly figure with a conservative image, featured on Green election posters with the slogan “You know me.” That was a slogan Merkel famously once used in a pre-election debate to underline her own largely ideology-free appeal.

    The Greens' success bolstered their confidence for the national election campaign, in which the traditionally left-leaning environmentalist party is expected to make its first bid for the chancellery. . . . .

    The center-left Social Democrats have led Rhineland-Palatinate for 30 years — currently under governor Malu Dreyer, whose personal popularity has kept her party’s support above its dismal national ratings. The Greens are a junior partner in her three-party governing coalition that also includes the pro-business Free Democrats, and looked set to improve somewhat on their showing five years ago.

    The far-right Alternative for Germany party appeared to have lost some support in both states, though still polled 10% or a bit more. . . . .

    Many people had already voted by mail, so it’s unclear how far the scandal over lawmakers in the CDU and its Bavaria-only sister party, the Christian Social Union, allegedly enriching themselves through mask deals impacted Sunday’s vote. . . .

    “What we see today is that forming a government is possible without the CDU,” said the Social Democrats' candidate for chancellor, current Finance Minister Olaf Scholz. “And that is what we are aiming for in the federal election campaign.”

    https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/German-election-year-opens-with-tough-test-for-16024419.php
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,277
    Floater said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck them, then. A noble cause already hijacked by the usual wankers.

    I loathe this All Cops Are Bastards crap. Dehumanizing and offensive and juvenile.
    I agree with you, however I am astounded by some of those who have given you a "like". Yesterday evening some of them had gone into full Corbynista Anarchist, we hate the police mode. Thankfully normal service has been resumed, and they all love the Old Bill again, bless!
    Or

    We accept that a lot of police try to do the right thing whilst being clear that last night was a disgrace.
    No it was more general than that. Some had actually morphed into Rik from The Young Ones.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,414

    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.

    Let's hope Boris stands firm if this happens and continues to focus on the 4 key criteria which don't directly include cases.
    The 4 criteria are undefined nonsense. Just a fig leaf to claim they've been open whilst keeping the decisions entirely opaque and discretionary.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 10,507

    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.

    Let's hope Boris stands firm if this happens and continues to focus on the 4 key criteria which don't directly include cases.
    Positive tests! (NOT CASES!)

    😉
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,569

    Prepare for positive tests to turn upwards next week on the back of massively accelerated testing, and for this to be presented as rising cases, and for this to be cited as evidence by the Zero Covid psychopaths to delay the roadmap.

    Nailed on.

    Let's hope Boris stands firm if this happens and continues to focus on the 4 key criteria which don't directly include cases.
    Positive tests! (NOT CASES!)

    😉
    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1371053674508730370
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
    I think that is not correct. Or it should not be -- otherwise areas with larger number of older people will lag behind areas with mainly younger people.

    If you want to get the old & vulnerable vaccinated everywhere as quickly as possible, then the proportion of vaccines received in any health area should scale with the proportion of older people.
    Vaccine procurement may have been UK competence, but i believe that vaccine distribution is a devolved matter. So the Government would have been asking for serious political trouble if they distributed vaccines to Scotland/Wales/NI (and other UK dependencies) on anything other than a pro-rata basis.

    And whilst all UK nations are broadly following similar vaccination strategies that is largely because all their scientists are giving similar advice - they are free to follow their own path if they want (eg. i think Scotland prioritised care homes at first more than others)

    They did distribute it on a pro rata basis.

    If say, you are vaccinating the over 60s, you distribute it pro rata on the number of over 60s in each Health Area.

    It is simple to implement and the most scientifically & medically effective thing to do.

    It will also have been done within each country as well, so areas of England with more old folk (eg South Coast) will have received proportionately more vaccines when we were jabbing the over 60s.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,299
    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?


    TSE clearly just wants to promote him to knock him down, such is his instinctive dislike of monarchy ;)

    MONARCHY = SOCIALISM! :innocent:
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,221
    You know you're getting old when the Polish Deputy Finance Minister looks young.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,512
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I don't paint all men as part of the problem. And you clearly have not read the last paragraph.

    "To change a culture for the better, all must play their part. Men have a vital role to play to change the world in which women live – as allies, as champions, as teachers, as exemplars, as defenders – so that, whether they are 18 or 80, women can live their lives to the fullest and without fear of men behaving badly."

    Which bit of this do you have a problem with?
    Hmm. I think yesterday @MarqueeMark posted some reservations about painting all men as part of the problem.

    You weren't on the thread much but suddenly popped up and went for him with both barrels posting a polemic in response starting with "Oh, do stop whining.."

    Not surprisingly, that turned him off. And it got close to turning me off too.

    I think we all want this unfair skewing of risk and responsibility against women to end. But the words and language you use to mobilise your allies is important, and needs to be measured - not uncompromising.
    Let me try and respond without getting everyone would up again. And let me make it clear that none of this is personally addressed to you or the lovely
    @MarqueeMark.

    You see this feels to me like men expecting women to tiptoe around their feelings. But our feelings - well that's us giving both barrels and putting people off and all the rest of it. And that exemplifies in a small way part of the problem. Perhaps for a change men could consider our feelings first and understand why women feel so bloody furious about it all.

    At a time when a woman was abducted off the streets and murdered, one of the first reactions on here by some of our eminent posters was to say that they weren't to blame. Well of course they aren't. But timing is everything in life. Is that really the time to make this point?

    As opposed to perhaps asking oneself some tough questions about why - if the majority of men aren't horrible sex pests - so much sexual harassment is happening. Why - if schools are teaching respect - are so many young men behaving and talking about women in a way that suggests they never attended any of those lessons?

    I mention the middle aged clients making obscene suggestions at breakfast. That happened to me. The men were fathers and grandfathers, successful professionals. Together they behaved like a bunch of dirty-minded 13 year olds. When spoken to individually they spoke with pride and love about their wives and daughters. They were ordinary men, much like many others. And yet they still behaved appallingly to me - a young barrister. Presumably I was not someone's loved daughter or wife. Just a girl who had to sit and endure and could not answer back.

    Or the traders who wrote vile stuff about what childbirth does to a certain part of a woman's autonomy - in workplace chats about a colleague then on maternity leave. When challenged and asked whether they would like this said about their wives one said they'd punch anyone doing that. They looked at me blankly until the penny dropped when I asked why then they thought it ok for them to write that about someone else's wife, about someone they worked with.

    Where does all this vileness come from? And how can we reduce or, ideally, stop it?

    There is I think a bit of cognitive dissonance in some men who do not realise how they are behaving, how they appear to women. It is easy for us all to think our behaviour impeccable when it really may not be as good as we like to think. And I include myself in that.

    Ms Cyclefree, we both know I am lovely - and I take no personal offence. But what I see is you trying to get acceptance that many men are awful - but with no acceptance in return that yes, to many guys they they are seen as arseholes too. The "jock" mentality of the "pussy-grabbing" Trump really is alien to most guys. Those that engage in such sexual braggadocio have a sixth sense about who their fellow pussy-grabbers are. It's not talk I have been party to, because they instinctively know they would be told where to go.


    I worked for a company that was rare in having a female CFO in a FTSE250 company, back in the day. Far less worthy of comment now. Some men might still feel weirdly threatened by a female boss. Women may feel that is still the norm. You have had the misfortune to work in areas of business where the shit floats upwards. But reality is, they are few and getting fewer. There is likely a big overlap between those remaining people who have a problem with a female boss and those who have authority issues with a male boss too.

    Most guys already DO learn respect towards women at school - and exercise that respect, throughout their lives. There is perhaps an issue that is a subset of the problem - those who now see no real distinction in how they behave as between men and women. Treat the ladies as one of the lads. Those boundaries around equality and equals don't always come with nice clear dividing lines, despite many women still wanting the "equal but different" to be respected more.

    My real issue is that your frustration/anger comes without agenda items on how to change anything. "Just think on how bad some men are." We know. But the problem guys aren't us is a fair response, when nothing more concrete is listed, no behavioural changes set out.

    I flagged an idea on the previous thread that would be controversial, but would send a distinct message that male sexual violence towards women needs special measures to help end it. It would cut across centuries of gender equality under the law. But perhaps, to get more prosecutions of men for sexual violence towards women, we need differing standards of proof. I suggested that perhaps for accused men, the standard of proof should be reduced from beyond all reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. That doesn't come without some risk of injustice to men, but it would provoke a real debate.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186
    stodge said:

    You know you're getting old when the Polish Deputy Finance Minister looks young.

    You could be 15 and still think he looks young - :smiley:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,569

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    Never, ever, accept a caution. Ever.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967
    But, you have just anointed as Prince of Wales someone whose son is in prison for rape.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
    I think that is not correct. Or it should not be -- otherwise areas with larger number of older people will lag behind areas with mainly younger people.

    If you want to get the old & vulnerable vaccinated everywhere as quickly as possible, then the proportion of vaccines received in any health area should scale with the proportion of older people.
    Vaccine procurement may have been UK competence, but i believe that vaccine distribution is a devolved matter. So the Government would have been asking for serious political trouble if they distributed vaccines to Scotland/Wales/NI (and other UK dependencies) on anything other than a pro-rata basis.

    And whilst all UK nations are broadly following similar vaccination strategies that is largely because all their scientists are giving similar advice - they are free to follow their own path if they want (eg. i think Scotland prioritised care homes at first more than others)

    They did distribute it on a pro rata basis.

    If say, you are vaccinating the over 60s, you distribute it pro rata on the number of over 60s in each Health Area.

    It is simple to implement and the most scientifically & medically effective thing to do.

    It will also have been done within each country as well, so areas of England with more old folk (eg South Coast) will have received proportionately more vaccines when we were jabbing the over 60s.
    That's almost certainly what happened within England. I'm querying whether it happened for distribution to devolved governments. That would be the UK Government setting vaccination policy for the devolved governments - who could, if they so wishes have chosen to prioritise eg. spreaders as opposed to vulnerable groups, or maybe specific professions (eg. teachers)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,538

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I don't paint all men as part of the problem. And you clearly have not read the last paragraph.

    "To change a culture for the better, all must play their part. Men have a vital role to play to change the world in which women live – as allies, as champions, as teachers, as exemplars, as defenders – so that, whether they are 18 or 80, women can live their lives to the fullest and without fear of men behaving badly."

    Which bit of this do you have a problem with?
    Hmm. I think yesterday @MarqueeMark posted some reservations about painting all men as part of the problem.

    You weren't on the thread much but suddenly popped up and went for him with both barrels posting a polemic in response starting with "Oh, do stop whining.."

    Not surprisingly, that turned him off. And it got close to turning me off too.

    I think we all want this unfair skewing of risk and responsibility against women to end. But the words and language you use to mobilise your allies is important, and needs to be measured - not uncompromising.
    Let me try and respond without getting everyone would up again. And let me make it clear that none of this is personally addressed to you or the lovely
    @MarqueeMark.

    You see this feels to me like men expecting women to tiptoe around their feelings. But our feelings - well that's us giving both barrels and putting people off and all the rest of it. And that exemplifies in a small way part of the problem. Perhaps for a change men could consider our feelings first and understand why women feel so bloody furious about it all.

    At a time when a woman was abducted off the streets and murdered, one of the first reactions on here by some of our eminent posters was to say that they weren't to blame. Well of course they aren't. But timing is everything in life. Is that really the time to make this point?

    As opposed to perhaps asking oneself some tough questions about why - if the majority of men aren't horrible sex pests - so much sexual harassment is happening. Why - if schools are teaching respect - are so many young men behaving and talking about women in a way that suggests they never attended any of those lessons?

    I mention the middle aged clients making obscene suggestions at breakfast. That happened to me. The men were fathers and grandfathers, successful professionals. Together they behaved like a bunch of dirty-minded 13 year olds. When spoken to individually they spoke with pride and love about their wives and daughters. They were ordinary men, much like many others. And yet they still behaved appallingly to me - a young barrister. Presumably I was not someone's loved daughter or wife. Just a girl who had to sit and endure and could not answer back.

    Or the traders who wrote vile stuff about what childbirth does to a certain part of a woman's autonomy - in workplace chats about a colleague then on maternity leave. When challenged and asked whether they would like this said about their wives one said they'd punch anyone doing that. They looked at me blankly until the penny dropped when I asked why then they thought it ok for them to write that about someone else's wife, about someone they worked with.

    Where does all this vileness come from? And how can we reduce or, ideally, stop it?

    There is I think a bit of cognitive dissonance in some men who do not realise how they are behaving, how they appear to women. It is easy for us all to think our behaviour impeccable when it really may not be as good as we like to think. And I include myself in that.

    Ms Cyclefree, we both know I am lovely - and I take no personal offence. But what I see is you trying to get acceptance that many men are awful - but with no acceptance in return that yes, to many guys they they are seen as arseholes too. The "jock" mentality of the "pussy-grabbing" Trump really is alien to most guys. Those that engage in such sexual braggadocio have a sixth sense about who their fellow pussy-grabbers are. It's not talk I have been party to, because they instinctively know they would be told where to go.


    I worked for a company that was rare in having a female CFO in a FTSE250 company, back in the day. Far less worthy of comment now. Some men might still feel weirdly threatened by a female boss. Women may feel that is still the norm. You have had the misfortune to work in areas of business where the shit floats upwards. But reality is, they are few and getting fewer. There is likely a big overlap between those remaining people who have a problem with a female boss and those who have authority issues with a male boss too.

    Most guys already DO learn respect towards women at school - and exercise that respect, throughout their lives. There is perhaps an issue that is a subset of the problem - those who now see no real distinction in how they behave as between men and women. Treat the ladies as one of the lads. Those boundaries around equality and equals don't always come with nice clear dividing lines, despite many women still wanting the "equal but different" to be respected more.

    My real issue is that your frustration/anger comes without agenda items on how to change anything. "Just think on how bad some men are." We know. But the problem guys aren't us is a fair response, when nothing more concrete is listed, no behavioural changes set out.

    I flagged an idea on the previous thread that would be controversial, but would send a distinct message that male sexual violence towards women needs special measures to help end it. It would cut across centuries of gender equality under the law. But perhaps, to get more prosecutions of men for sexual violence towards women, we need differing standards of proof. I suggested that perhaps for accused men, the standard of proof should be reduced from beyond all reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. That doesn't come without some risk of injustice to men, but it would provoke a real debate.
    A truly, truly appalling idea. That’s worse than the 6pm curfew. ‘Sorry you’re a man so you have a much bigger chance of being jailed unjustly. That’s because we’re trying to be fair’.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,932
    edited March 14

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    I've always assumed it was a way for police to get a quick admission to a minor crime in their stats by selling it to the other party as a quick and painless way of getting the police off their back, and the painless part is not true.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    Re: Germany, are today's results in B-W & R-P evidence of (among other things) certain degree of Mutti fatigue?

    IIRC similar ailment contributed to the final electoral defeat of her political mentor and predecessor as leader of CDU and Chancellor of Germany.

    In this case, methinks that Merkel's creole goodbye has NOT alleviated the situation.

    Like the old song says, "How can I miss you if you won't go away?"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,569
    In re Zero Covid - the Chief Medical Officer ripped the concept a new one in front of the relevant Commons committee last week. Really, they have no influence, Neil Ferguson does, and he sounds positively chipper at the moment.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,343

    But, you have just anointed as Prince of Wales someone whose son is in prison for rape.
    Sins of your father son?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 96,752
    edited March 14

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record but avoid a trial.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,512

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
    The friendliness at the centres really is a thing. Those doing the vaxxing really do seem to be loving that they are bringing protection from Covid to those attending. It almost has a religious element to it.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809
    RobD said:

    But, you have just anointed as Prince of Wales someone whose son is in prison for rape.
    Sins of your father son?
    Bit of a problem in a monarchy though
  • DougSeal said:

    In re Zero Covid - the Chief Medical Officer ripped the concept a new one in front of the relevant Commons committee last week. Really, they have no influence, Neil Ferguson does, and he sounds positively chipper at the moment.

    If you go back to April-July last year, the likes of Whitty, Vallance, and Ferguson were saying the same thing, the only we get out of this pandemic is with a vaccine.

    It explains their happiness today.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,093
    edited March 14
    Not much uglier than a mob with ACAB signs.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    The Great Drakeford is mentioned ... and coincidentally just as we are talking about the importance of the upbringing and education of young men in the matters of sexual consent. Something in which the Great Drakeford was less conspicuously successful.

    [The median age of the Welsh population is 2.5 years larger than the median age of the English population. So, if you are vaccinating according to age cohorts from the oldest first, a greater proportion of Wales will be vaccinated as compared to England. It is simple arithmetic.]
    To be fair, aren't all the vaccines being distributed on a pro-rata basis between nations? So if Wales are vaccinating quicker then they are just... vaccinating quicker. They haven't been given more vaccines by virtue of having an older population.
    I think that is not correct. Or it should not be -- otherwise areas with larger number of older people will lag behind areas with mainly younger people.

    If you want to get the old & vulnerable vaccinated everywhere as quickly as possible, then the proportion of vaccines received in any health area should scale with the proportion of older people.
    Vaccine procurement may have been UK competence, but i believe that vaccine distribution is a devolved matter. So the Government would have been asking for serious political trouble if they distributed vaccines to Scotland/Wales/NI (and other UK dependencies) on anything other than a pro-rata basis.

    And whilst all UK nations are broadly following similar vaccination strategies that is largely because all their scientists are giving similar advice - they are free to follow their own path if they want (eg. i think Scotland prioritised care homes at first more than others)

    They did distribute it on a pro rata basis.

    If say, you are vaccinating the over 60s, you distribute it pro rata on the number of over 60s in each Health Area.

    It is simple to implement and the most scientifically & medically effective thing to do.

    It will also have been done within each country as well, so areas of England with more old folk (eg South Coast) will have received proportionately more vaccines when we were jabbing the over 60s.
    That's almost certainly what happened within England. I'm querying whether it happened for distribution to devolved governments. That would be the UK Government setting vaccination policy for the devolved governments - who could, if they so wishes have chosen to prioritise eg. spreaders as opposed to vulnerable groups, or maybe specific professions (eg. teachers)
    If the scientists and medical professions were in charge of the vaccine distribution, then I am sure it will have happened, as it make most medical sense.

    Suppose the politicians were in charge.

    Then, surely, it would have been political dynamite to do otherwis. Wales could then argue -- completely correctly -- that its old people were not being treated fairly as compared to old people in England or Scotland.

    If there are more over 60s in a part of the UK, then they will have got proportionately more of the vaccines earlier.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    stodge said:

    You know you're getting old when the Polish Deputy Finance Minister looks young.


    He looks somewhat older than 14, resembling Michael J. Fox when he was playing a teenage would-be land pirate.

    Or maybe he's Jacob Rees-Mogg's Polish love child?

    https://www.gov.pl/web/finance/piotr-patkowski
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record but avoid a trial.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    But gets sold to the perps (esp. the young and semi-innocent) as a soft option?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,685

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
    The friendliness at the centres really is a thing. Those doing the vaxxing really do seem to be loving that they are bringing protection from Covid to those attending. It almost has a religious element to it.
    I was very impressed by the organisation at the place where I got my first dose. There was a real sense of collective endeavour and friendliness, as well as efficiency.

    Daughter has done the training with St John Ambulance to vaccinate and will be doing this next month at various centres in Cumbria. Maybe she might end up giving me my 2nd dose!

    All those involved in the vaccination programme deserve praise and thanks.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
    The friendliness at the centres really is a thing. Those doing the vaxxing really do seem to be loving that they are bringing protection from Covid to those attending. It almost has a religious element to it.
    It is reassuring that the depressing stuff coming out of the rest of Europe really seems to be having absolutely zero impact on UK enthusiasm for the vaccines, and Oxford-AZ especially.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,074
    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Although I don't specialise in criminal law, I've had considerable contact with the criminal justice system, in various capacities. Overall, I would say that a large majority of judges, magistrates, police officers and jurors I have encountered are honest and conscientious.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,538
    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    Potentially not just future employers - I am aware of employers in my industry doing background checks on current employees
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,809
    Sean_F said:

    Pagan2 said:

    An interesting survey would be how many have confidence in the police and justice system split between

    a) Those who have had no real contact with them
    b) Those that have had contact as a victim

    If the police and justice system is doing a good job then b should be a higher value

    Although I don't specialise in criminal law, I've had considerable contact with the criminal justice system, in various capacities. Overall, I would say that a large majority of judges, magistrates, police officers and jurors I have encountered are honest and conscientious.
    But the barristers...? ;)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,569
    edited March 14

    DougSeal said:

    In re Zero Covid - the Chief Medical Officer ripped the concept a new one in front of the relevant Commons committee last week. Really, they have no influence, Neil Ferguson does, and he sounds positively chipper at the moment.

    If you go back to April-July last year, the likes of Whitty, Vallance, and Ferguson were saying the same thing, the only we get out of this pandemic is with a vaccine.

    It explains their happiness today.
    Looking back that was one of the things that caused me some despair - what if there never was a vaccine? Now I know that they knew (and maybe I would have found out if I had read deeper) that what would become the Moderna vaccine was designed on 15 January 2020 FFS - five days after the virus was sequenced. If I had known that (and that the Az and Pfizer vaccines were so far along by then already) I would not have been quite as depressed as I was.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,512
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I don't paint all men as part of the problem. And you clearly have not read the last paragraph.

    "To change a culture for the better, all must play their part. Men have a vital role to play to change the world in which women live – as allies, as champions, as teachers, as exemplars, as defenders – so that, whether they are 18 or 80, women can live their lives to the fullest and without fear of men behaving badly."

    Which bit of this do you have a problem with?
    Hmm. I think yesterday @MarqueeMark posted some reservations about painting all men as part of the problem.

    You weren't on the thread much but suddenly popped up and went for him with both barrels posting a polemic in response starting with "Oh, do stop whining.."

    Not surprisingly, that turned him off. And it got close to turning me off too.

    I think we all want this unfair skewing of risk and responsibility against women to end. But the words and language you use to mobilise your allies is important, and needs to be measured - not uncompromising.
    Let me try and respond without getting everyone would up again. And let me make it clear that none of this is personally addressed to you or the lovely
    @MarqueeMark.

    You see this feels to me like men expecting women to tiptoe around their feelings. But our feelings - well that's us giving both barrels and putting people off and all the rest of it. And that exemplifies in a small way part of the problem. Perhaps for a change men could consider our feelings first and understand why women feel so bloody furious about it all.

    At a time when a woman was abducted off the streets and murdered, one of the first reactions on here by some of our eminent posters was to say that they weren't to blame. Well of course they aren't. But timing is everything in life. Is that really the time to make this point?

    As opposed to perhaps asking oneself some tough questions about why - if the majority of men aren't horrible sex pests - so much sexual harassment is happening. Why - if schools are teaching respect - are so many young men behaving and talking about women in a way that suggests they never attended any of those lessons?

    I mention the middle aged clients making obscene suggestions at breakfast. That happened to me. The men were fathers and grandfathers, successful professionals. Together they behaved like a bunch of dirty-minded 13 year olds. When spoken to individually they spoke with pride and love about their wives and daughters. They were ordinary men, much like many others. And yet they still behaved appallingly to me - a young barrister. Presumably I was not someone's loved daughter or wife. Just a girl who had to sit and endure and could not answer back.

    Or the traders who wrote vile stuff about what childbirth does to a certain part of a woman's autonomy - in workplace chats about a colleague then on maternity leave. When challenged and asked whether they would like this said about their wives one said they'd punch anyone doing that. They looked at me blankly until the penny dropped when I asked why then they thought it ok for them to write that about someone else's wife, about someone they worked with.

    Where does all this vileness come from? And how can we reduce or, ideally, stop it?

    There is I think a bit of cognitive dissonance in some men who do not realise how they are behaving, how they appear to women. It is easy for us all to think our behaviour impeccable when it really may not be as good as we like to think. And I include myself in that.

    Ms Cyclefree, we both know I am lovely - and I take no personal offence. But what I see is you trying to get acceptance that many men are awful - but with no acceptance in return that yes, to many guys they they are seen as arseholes too. The "jock" mentality of the "pussy-grabbing" Trump really is alien to most guys. Those that engage in such sexual braggadocio have a sixth sense about who their fellow pussy-grabbers are. It's not talk I have been party to, because they instinctively know they would be told where to go.


    I worked for a company that was rare in having a female CFO in a FTSE250 company, back in the day. Far less worthy of comment now. Some men might still feel weirdly threatened by a female boss. Women may feel that is still the norm. You have had the misfortune to work in areas of business where the shit floats upwards. But reality is, they are few and getting fewer. There is likely a big overlap between those remaining people who have a problem with a female boss and those who have authority issues with a male boss too.

    Most guys already DO learn respect towards women at school - and exercise that respect, throughout their lives. There is perhaps an issue that is a subset of the problem - those who now see no real distinction in how they behave as between men and women. Treat the ladies as one of the lads. Those boundaries around equality and equals don't always come with nice clear dividing lines, despite many women still wanting the "equal but different" to be respected more.

    My real issue is that your frustration/anger comes without agenda items on how to change anything. "Just think on how bad some men are." We know. But the problem guys aren't us is a fair response, when nothing more concrete is listed, no behavioural changes set out.

    I flagged an idea on the previous thread that would be controversial, but would send a distinct message that male sexual violence towards women needs special measures to help end it. It would cut across centuries of gender equality under the law. But perhaps, to get more prosecutions of men for sexual violence towards women, we need differing standards of proof. I suggested that perhaps for accused men, the standard of proof should be reduced from beyond all reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. That doesn't come without some risk of injustice to men, but it would provoke a real debate.
    A truly, truly appalling idea. That’s worse than the 6pm curfew. ‘Sorry you’re a man so you have a much bigger chance of being jailed unjustly. That’s because we’re trying to be fair’.
    Someone of your acquaintance might have especially firm views on it. But we have a huge problem in getting convictions for sexual assaults by men on women. Come up with something else then, to level that playing field. Because it isn't working as is.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,471

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
    The friendliness at the centres really is a thing. Those doing the vaxxing really do seem to be loving that they are bringing protection from Covid to those attending. It almost has a religious element to it.
    It was.. well, amazing. One of the volunteers picked up my wife was nervous, and got the nurses over unprompted to sit through with her.

    The vaccinator was lovely. Put everyone at ease. And when we walked out, it was almost like we’d one an Oscar or something.

    Just remarkable
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,484
    How would defunding the police help protect women against criminals?
  • kle4 said:

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    I've always assumed it was a way for police to get a quick admission to a minor crime in their stats by selling it to the other party as a quick and painless way of getting the police off their back, and the painless part is not true.
    Exactly.

    Far too many coppers outright lie when it comes to cautions.

    They also prey on the fact that far too many people panic when they find themselves in such a predicament.

    I said the other day one of the most common questions to duty solicitors is 'Will/is it in the papers/media?'

    I think the people think even if they are found not guilty they think the public will think 'No smoke without fire.'

    I've mentioned on here when I have my regular ethics seminar and I'm asked for reasons why I shouldn't do dodgy things one of my reasons is that the scandal would kill my mother, this is the woman who fainted when she opened my first ever speeding letter.
  • "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record but avoid a trial.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    But gets sold to the perps (esp. the young and semi-innocent) as a soft option?
    Yes.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,967

    Of Cyclefree's suggestions, one stands out as very simple & practical to implement.

    " Understand, for instance, why single sex spaces and places of refuge matter to them. Fund the latter properly. Erin Pizzey had to fight hard to get them established. Now they are losing funding or being made gender neutral by those who refuse to understand why they are needed."

    That surely is an absolute minimum that we could do quickly & easily and it will save lives.

    Most women are killed by abusive partners in their own homes. There is a need for refuges in every town and city and it is wrong that they are losing funding.
  • Floater said:

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    Potentially not just future employers - I am aware of employers in my industry doing background checks on current employees
    Yup, I get DBS'd every two years, and credit checked every 12 months.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,569

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record but avoid a trial.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    But gets sold to the perps (esp. the young and semi-innocent) as a soft option?
    It get sold as if it were little worse than a parking ticket.

  • Andy_JS said:

    How would defunding the police help protect women against criminals?

    Defunding isn't what you think it means.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,685
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    Ahem: Anne Cryer MP, various female social workers and female police officers (Maggie Oliver whistle blew over Rochdale) did raise the issue. And were shut down. By male MPs and senior male police officers, as it happens.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,484

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I don't paint all men as part of the problem. And you clearly have not read the last paragraph.

    "To change a culture for the better, all must play their part. Men have a vital role to play to change the world in which women live – as allies, as champions, as teachers, as exemplars, as defenders – so that, whether they are 18 or 80, women can live their lives to the fullest and without fear of men behaving badly."

    Which bit of this do you have a problem with?
    Hmm. I think yesterday @MarqueeMark posted some reservations about painting all men as part of the problem.

    You weren't on the thread much but suddenly popped up and went for him with both barrels posting a polemic in response starting with "Oh, do stop whining.."

    Not surprisingly, that turned him off. And it got close to turning me off too.

    I think we all want this unfair skewing of risk and responsibility against women to end. But the words and language you use to mobilise your allies is important, and needs to be measured - not uncompromising.
    Let me try and respond without getting everyone would up again. And let me make it clear that none of this is personally addressed to you or the lovely
    @MarqueeMark.

    You see this feels to me like men expecting women to tiptoe around their feelings. But our feelings - well that's us giving both barrels and putting people off and all the rest of it. And that exemplifies in a small way part of the problem. Perhaps for a change men could consider our feelings first and understand why women feel so bloody furious about it all.

    At a time when a woman was abducted off the streets and murdered, one of the first reactions on here by some of our eminent posters was to say that they weren't to blame. Well of course they aren't. But timing is everything in life. Is that really the time to make this point?

    As opposed to perhaps asking oneself some tough questions about why - if the majority of men aren't horrible sex pests - so much sexual harassment is happening. Why - if schools are teaching respect - are so many young men behaving and talking about women in a way that suggests they never attended any of those lessons?

    I mention the middle aged clients making obscene suggestions at breakfast. That happened to me. The men were fathers and grandfathers, successful professionals. Together they behaved like a bunch of dirty-minded 13 year olds. When spoken to individually they spoke with pride and love about their wives and daughters. They were ordinary men, much like many others. And yet they still behaved appallingly to me - a young barrister. Presumably I was not someone's loved daughter or wife. Just a girl who had to sit and endure and could not answer back.

    Or the traders who wrote vile stuff about what childbirth does to a certain part of a woman's autonomy - in workplace chats about a colleague then on maternity leave. When challenged and asked whether they would like this said about their wives one said they'd punch anyone doing that. They looked at me blankly until the penny dropped when I asked why then they thought it ok for them to write that about someone else's wife, about someone they worked with.

    Where does all this vileness come from? And how can we reduce or, ideally, stop it?

    There is I think a bit of cognitive dissonance in some men who do not realise how they are behaving, how they appear to women. It is easy for us all to think our behaviour impeccable when it really may not be as good as we like to think. And I include myself in that.

    Ms Cyclefree, we both know I am lovely - and I take no personal offence. But what I see is you trying to get acceptance that many men are awful - but with no acceptance in return that yes, to many guys they they are seen as arseholes too. The "jock" mentality of the "pussy-grabbing" Trump really is alien to most guys. Those that engage in such sexual braggadocio have a sixth sense about who their fellow pussy-grabbers are. It's not talk I have been party to, because they instinctively know they would be told where to go.


    I worked for a company that was rare in having a female CFO in a FTSE250 company, back in the day. Far less worthy of comment now. Some men might still feel weirdly threatened by a female boss. Women may feel that is still the norm. You have had the misfortune to work in areas of business where the shit floats upwards. But reality is, they are few and getting fewer. There is likely a big overlap between those remaining people who have a problem with a female boss and those who have authority issues with a male boss too.

    Most guys already DO learn respect towards women at school - and exercise that respect, throughout their lives. There is perhaps an issue that is a subset of the problem - those who now see no real distinction in how they behave as between men and women. Treat the ladies as one of the lads. Those boundaries around equality and equals don't always come with nice clear dividing lines, despite many women still wanting the "equal but different" to be respected more.

    My real issue is that your frustration/anger comes without agenda items on how to change anything. "Just think on how bad some men are." We know. But the problem guys aren't us is a fair response, when nothing more concrete is listed, no behavioural changes set out.

    I flagged an idea on the previous thread that would be controversial, but would send a distinct message that male sexual violence towards women needs special measures to help end it. It would cut across centuries of gender equality under the law. But perhaps, to get more prosecutions of men for sexual violence towards women, we need differing standards of proof. I suggested that perhaps for accused men, the standard of proof should be reduced from beyond all reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. That doesn't come without some risk of injustice to men, but it would provoke a real debate.
    "differing standards of proof"
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 4,069
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Been out this afternoon walking in the rain so just catching up on this thread.

    Once again to join with other contributors, an excellent piece and nothing I can disagree with in there.

    I think the key point to be understood is education of boys and young men. Never has Aristotle's aphorism been more true than in the treatment of women.

    Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man.

    There certainly seem to be a lot of emotionally stunted blokes forever frozen at the age of seven on twitter.
    Not just on twitter.

    I have mused on @Cyclefree header whilst pottering in the garden. The problem seems intractable, and while better education and police who are competent are clearly good things, they do have a rather apple pie appeal. Who doesn't favour these things?

    The problem is men, and while only a minority behave physically violently, it is a big problem for women. While fear of random street violence is legitimate in men, the threat is violence or robbery rather than sexual assault, so of a different order.

    There is a lot of male anger out there, and part of that is that for many men anger is the only permissable emotional outlet. It is the goto for any stress or difficulty. The threat to status from female equality and emancipation brings it to the fore.

    I work in a majority female workplace, and cannot recall seeing any misogyny, but at a recent pre-pandemic team day the subject #metoo came up.

    I was the only male at a lunchtable with a half dozen female colleagues aged from mid twenties to mid fifties. I asked them to tell me of their #metoo stories. Everyone of them had several, mostly inappropriate behaviour from male patients. Indeed they had devised a way of marking notes for certain patients to be never be seen without a witness.

    Perhaps the most important thing for men to do is to listen to the women in their lives and workplace, without interrupting or arguing. These experiences are very common, only yesterday Mrs Foxy told me of an incident where a van driver cut her up, blocked the road in front of her, got out and pounded on her car window swearing at her and accusing her of dangerous driving. These incidents are so common that all women seem able to tell similar tales. So my advice to men is to raise the issue, and listen, just listen.

    It would be nice if these angry metropolitan women had marched in the name of the THOUSANDS of girls systematically groomed, raped, abused and sometimes killed - with the connivance of police and politicians - across the north and Midlands in the last 30 years, but maybe I am over-optimistic about human nature.

    On your larger point, I agree, but I fear misogyny and male violence - clearly very real problems - are likely to get WORSE before they get better. Why? Involuntary celibacy. Incels. More and more young men are getting less and less sex, for various reasons - apps like Tinder, inequality, declining employment prospects for young men, and so on.

    Young men deprived of sex quite quickly turn to violence. See the rise of Islamism in sexually suppressive societies.

    Eventually this problem will probably be solved by technology. Sex bots. GPT3 with fake boobs.

    But we could be in for a rocky decade or three before then. It’s a major issue, not really acknowledged
    Except.

    Plenty of those sleazeballs are in high status roles, like policemen, bankers or politicians. They have money and partners.

    They just get greedy; they assume that because they are bursting with spunk (to take a phrase I must have picked up from someone famous) they can take without asking. Biologically, that's what males do, but civilisation is turning away from pure biological urges, because they lead to nasty, brutish and short lives.

    But some men don't bother with that. Because they're alphas, dontchaknow?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hopefully the vaccine surge over the next few weeks will allow for ~500k first doses per day plus whatever the second dose programme needs (~100k per day rising to 350k per day by the end of the month) as that would see us get to under 40s by Easter time and under 30s by the end of April.

    Bring on the under 40s

    My wife (aged 32) was vaccinated as a result of her asthma on Friday at Heathrow. I was so mightily impressed how efficient and friendly the whole thing was.

    Obviously she is ahead of me now in terms of full vaccination, but I really don’t underestimate the huge achievement of bringing this about. (She had the Oxford and was ill for a day after - recovered really quickly(
    The friendliness at the centres really is a thing. Those doing the vaxxing really do seem to be loving that they are bringing protection from Covid to those attending. It almost has a religious element to it.
    I was very impressed by the organisation at the place where I got my first dose. There was a real sense of collective endeavour and friendliness, as well as efficiency.

    Daughter has done the training with St John Ambulance to vaccinate and will be doing this next month at various centres in Cumbria. Maybe she might end up giving me my 2nd dose!

    All those involved in the vaccination programme deserve praise and thanks.
    My own experience in Seattle matches with those of MM & Cyc.

    Had mine at UW Medical Center (the folks with the model were prob. in a nearby building) which is a massive complex. Atmosphere was friendly, efficient & very professional on part of greeters, checkers and nurses, with sizable lines keep moving smoothly with reasonable dispatch.

    As for us jabees, well, collectively and individually we were all VERY happy to be there. Cooperative and friendly with the jabers AND each other. True community spirit.

    AND more and more of my friends and neighbors are getting vaccinated, now starting to reach some of those under 65 with special circumstances. Such as the young woman in the apartment above me who works as a nanny. And another friend whose son is severely disabled.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,318
    Andy_JS said:

    How would defunding the police help protect women against criminals?

    The radical left want to abolish private property thus also abolishing the need for the police to protect it, supposedly we then all live in a hippy collective commune with no violence
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,159

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record but avoid a trial.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    I find the system completely ridiculous. Also the hate incident record should be dumped. Anyone who isn't convicted of a crime shouldn't have their details in the criminal justice system at any level. The mission creep of these "public safety" databases which now routinely store DNA, fingerprints and other data on people who aren't criminals is something that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately we have a disgraceful Home Secretary who is likely to go in the other direction and ramp up data retention of innocent people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,159

    Floater said:

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    It means you get a criminal record.

    Which causes all sorts of problems down the line such with future employers who carrying out DBS checks on you, checks which show you have a criminal record.
    Potentially not just future employers - I am aware of employers in my industry doing background checks on current employees
    Yup, I get DBS'd every two years, and credit checked every 12 months.
    Yes, same here. Isn't it standard in financial services?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 89,318

    alex_ said:

    Wales now has over 10% fully vaccinated after receiving their second dose. They've overtaken every EU member state on second doses.

    Drakeford is the true Prince of Wales.

    The Welsh are so lucky to have him.
    You dare suggest the title of Prince is sufficient for him?


    TSE clearly just wants to promote him to knock him down, such is his instinctive dislike of monarchy ;)

    MONARCHY = SOCIALISM! :innocent:
    No, state control of the economy =socialism, socialist Labour voters are far more likely to oppose having a monarchy than conservative Tories

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1371057919610007561?s=20
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,436

    kle4 said:

    "Caution" is one of the aspects of English (and Scots?) law that many Americans are familiar with from literature, movies, TV, etc., etc., but about which most of us (yours truly included) really know nothing. That is, what does it really mean and how is it really used?

    Wiki tells me that "Accepting a caution requires an admission of guilt" which enough for me to be en garde.

    I've always assumed it was a way for police to get a quick admission to a minor crime in their stats by selling it to the other party as a quick and painless way of getting the police off their back, and the painless part is not true.
    Exactly.

    Far too many coppers outright lie when it comes to cautions.

    They also prey on the fact that far too many people panic when they find themselves in such a predicament.

    I said the other day one of the most common questions to duty solicitors is 'Will/is it in the papers/media?'

    I think the people think even if they are found not guilty they think the public will think 'No smoke without fire.'

    I've mentioned on here when I have my regular ethics seminar and I'm asked for reasons why I shouldn't do dodgy things one of my reasons is that the scandal would kill my mother, this is the woman who fainted when she opened my first ever speeding letter.
    Best damn reason in the world - even when it's NOT Mothering Sunday!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,186
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How would defunding the police help protect women against criminals?

    The radical left want to abolish private property thus also abolishing the need for the police to protect it, supposedly we then all live in a hippy collective commune with no violence
    More likely they set up their own politicised force which will use ever more violence and repression if history offers any clues
This discussion has been closed.