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On the day that a Times poll has the Tories 13% ahead it will be Mail that will get the most attenti

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  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited March 2021

    eek said:

    Off-topic, can I say how much I enjoyed last night's discussion on AI. This site has become more fun since the Jezziah AI programme was switched back on. Especially as the 2019 election has been deleted from its programming.

    Given Starmers great polling it was clear all along that being left wing was the problem and any other leader would be 20 points ahead, you were right, I was wrong.

    I just thought centrism was a dead ideology but the dramatic response to Starmers charismatic leadership have blown me away and turned me into a true believer.
    Would Starmer have been considered a centrist pre-Corbyn?

    Apart from now talking about Yemen instead of Israel how much has Starmer actually moved Labour to the "centre".
    Starmer was (and is) centre left of the labour party...
    Agreed.

    And centre left of the Labour Party is pretty far left for the country as a whole.

    Its like replacing Foot with Benn in the 80s.
    But that's not surprising given that the Labour party during Corbyn's time has been like the Republican party's membership during Trump.

    The more centralist people have walked away leaving only the left wingers behind.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Off-topic, can I say how much I enjoyed last night's discussion on AI. This site has become more fun since the Jezziah AI programme was switched back on. Especially as the 2019 election has been deleted from its programming.

    Given Starmers great polling it was clear all along that being left wing was the problem and any other leader would be 20 points ahead, you were right, I was wrong.

    I just thought centrism was a dead ideology but the dramatic response to Starmers charismatic leadership have blown me away and turned me into a true believer.
    Would Starmer have been considered a centrist pre-Corbyn?

    Apart from now talking about Yemen instead of Israel how much has Starmer actually moved Labour to the "centre".
    TBH I wouldn't take much convincing that Starmer cares less for the people of Yemen than Boris Johnson does.

    There are some Blairites who don't want to kill people in Yemen (admittedly there are those that do) I don't think it is an exclusively left wing position (a mostly left wing one maybe) but if his leadership was more like that people would probably think of him as left wing, more of an exception than the rule though in Starmers time as leader his actions have been far more anti left.
    Insane.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/05/eu-accused-of-neocolonial-plundering-of-tuna-in-indian-ocean

    Interesting how so many people seem to think the EU is some kind of enlightened, liberal force-for-good as compared with, say, the rapacious, environment-ravaging Brexiteering Brits. The evidence, such as over emissions, generally points in exactly the opposite direction.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    eek said:

    Off-topic, can I say how much I enjoyed last night's discussion on AI. This site has become more fun since the Jezziah AI programme was switched back on. Especially as the 2019 election has been deleted from its programming.

    Given Starmers great polling it was clear all along that being left wing was the problem and any other leader would be 20 points ahead, you were right, I was wrong.

    I just thought centrism was a dead ideology but the dramatic response to Starmers charismatic leadership have blown me away and turned me into a true believer.
    Would Starmer have been considered a centrist pre-Corbyn?

    Apart from now talking about Yemen instead of Israel how much has Starmer actually moved Labour to the "centre".
    Starmer was (and is) centre left of the labour party...
    Have not most Labour leaders drifted rightwards over the course of time?

    Warmonger Blair started out a member of CND. Wilson was a leftist firebrand who resigned over the imposition of NHS charges.

    To get the leadership, SKS emphasised his leftist credentials.

    But, the signs are already there that he is moving sharply rightwards. E.g., all the bloody Union Jacks.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    How is our elected officials accepting cash bungs a private matter?

    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?
    We voted to dissolve them in 2016, along with various other things.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    How is our elected officials accepting cash bungs a private matter?

    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?
    Has a cash bung been accepted
    Ive no idea, but the Daily Mail reports it was discussed with the PM present.

    "The Daily Mail has been told that Mr Johnson was present when a plan was mooted to ask Tory donors – including environment minister Lord [Zac] Goldsmith, a close friend of Miss Symonds, and billionaire JCB construction boss Lord Bamford – to contribute. It is not known whether either man has provided funds."
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    eek said:

    Off-topic, can I say how much I enjoyed last night's discussion on AI. This site has become more fun since the Jezziah AI programme was switched back on. Especially as the 2019 election has been deleted from its programming.

    Given Starmers great polling it was clear all along that being left wing was the problem and any other leader would be 20 points ahead, you were right, I was wrong.

    I just thought centrism was a dead ideology but the dramatic response to Starmers charismatic leadership have blown me away and turned me into a true believer.
    Would Starmer have been considered a centrist pre-Corbyn?

    Apart from now talking about Yemen instead of Israel how much has Starmer actually moved Labour to the "centre".
    Starmer was (and is) centre left of the labour party...
    Starmer is Mandelson, Blair, and all the other worst ghouls of Labours most right wing factions who he listens too.

    I'm sure Starmer said some left wing stuff when he was younger, hell I'm sure he even believed some of it that is the past though.
  • It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    DRS zone should include the stumps I think !

    It does, doesn't it?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    No it is not a private matter.

    If a Minister is financially benefiting then it needs to be transparent. Sunshine is the best disinfectant for corruption.
    I agree if public money is involved
    It applies to private money also. Do you think all the brown envelope stuff that happened in the past was ok?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    edited March 2021
    Really struggling to see why this 10 Downing Street makeover issue would bother any voters when you consider the budget, vaccine rollout and the chaos in Scotland. I don't think Boris deserves a 13 point polling lead but given how unimpressive Starmer has been you could say he's lucky to be on 32.

    I also suspect there will be a payrise for nurses in the next budget, to me it makes sense to reward them after a pandemic rather than during it. There's nothing to say the Unions won't try for another unrealistic rise in 6 or 12 months time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    DougSeal said:

    I take it as a hopeful sign of a transition to a post-Covid world that we are arguing the toss over interior design.

    I thought there were a couple of local byelections in Scotland yesterday. Did I get the date wrong? Seen nothing of the results.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    Off-topic, can I say how much I enjoyed last night's discussion on AI. This site has become more fun since the Jezziah AI programme was switched back on. Especially as the 2019 election has been deleted from its programming.

    Given Starmers great polling it was clear all along that being left wing was the problem and any other leader would be 20 points ahead, you were right, I was wrong.

    I just thought centrism was a dead ideology but the dramatic response to Starmers charismatic leadership have blown me away and turned me into a true believer.
    Would Starmer have been considered a centrist pre-Corbyn?

    Apart from now talking about Yemen instead of Israel how much has Starmer actually moved Labour to the "centre".
    Starmer was (and is) centre left of the labour party...
    Have not most Labour leaders drifted rightwards over the course of time?

    Warmonger Blair started out a member of CND. Wilson was a leftist firebrand who resigned over the imposition of NHS charges.

    To get the leadership, SKS emphasised his leftist credentials.

    But, the signs are already there that he is moving sharply rightwards. E.g., all the bloody Union Jacks.
    Having the flag of your own country isn't rightwing.

    The fact that you think it is or that its even controversial just shows how far off the deep end Labour have gone.

    image
  • It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    If it turns out that the cost is being paid either directly by taxpayers or indirectly by making it a charity (If someone's bedroom redecoration is a charity, where do you draw the line?), then I think people will indeed be outraged. If it's merely paid by some Tory chums, then most people will shrug, though if Tory HQ is paying then some of the supporters who chip in £50 to the email appeals may feel a bit miffed.

    Four points:-

    1. Taxpayers' money should not be used for extravagant interior decoration, beyond the normal appointment already budgeted for. If extra is wanted it should be paid for by the PM personally.
    2. Interior decoration is not a charitable purpose. The idea of creating a "charity" for such a purpose is simply taking the piss and unlawful under current U.K. laws.
    3. Donors funding it should not be permitted. It creates an obvious conflict of interest. It's no different from bunging the PM a few quid in the hope of some reward. Bluntly it risks being seen as - or actually being - a bribe.
    4. The PM has a very grand country house to enjoy and a 4 - bedroom flat in Central London. Let's get real: this is extravagant by any normal standards. Rather than moan about it he - and his other half - should reflect on their good fortune and enjoy it while it lasts.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883



    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?


    Nobody give a fuck about them. The opposition are dreaming if they think Johnson pivoting the office of PM to a Patreon model is going to move the polls.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    For all the reasons previously discussed I think it’s wrong for the PM to ever benefit from personal donations like this, but I think most voters will hear “not using public money” and move on until one of the donors is ennobled.

    Where the NHS is concerned, the Gvt is, as usual, failing to point out that a 1% raise isn’t a 1% raise because they get increments too (I think that’s still true). Also this is the terms of reference for the review and Hancock/Boris might get to “heroically” overturn it later.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    On topic: I don't see how this damages the PM. OK, so £200k on decorations sounds utterly absurd. To most normals it also sounds impossible. Gender politics comes into effect - most married men understand what its like when their better half pushes the button on spending cash for their project. And I suspect that many women reading it will treat the story with the same outraged anti-woman tone that all of the Mail's SHE'S FAT, WHAT UGLY CLOTHES, LOOK - CELLULITE! photo exclusives.

    Shagger dumped his wife and kids whilst she was having cancer treatment, knocked up the fling, shagged a musician on the side for good measure. And people still think "he's a lad". So there are no stories of basic ethics and morality that can get him. None.

    His wife kicked him out, he didn’t dump her.
    He treated her badly that even she finally had enough and kicked him out. The real question is why she put up with him for so long.
    What has it got to do with you or anyone else for that matter? How do you know she wasn't equally awful to him if indeed he was awful.to her.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Not a bad idea at all, but wait for Charles before doing it.
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Agree Max.

    The problem is that pensioners are stuffed with gold and house owners can anticipate some lovely price inflation to make them feel wealthier.

    The budget was too clever by half.

    This is early term, and Rishi had a chance to right some wrongs and set us up on a better path for growth.

    He flunked it.

    (With the exception of the investment subsidy).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    Of course we should. The Crown Estate should 100% belong to the nation.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,184

    Mr. Eagles, your EU-fixation is showing.

    I just said that there were legitimate grounds to attack both the pay rise and the track and trace spending. That doesn't make a stupid statistical comparison anything other than stupid.

    No, I was pointing out the Tory party and their supporters yesterday were gleefully taking a quote out of context by Starmer, don't be surprised when other people start taking other things out of context to attack them.
    "Don't be surprised when other people start"?
    Taking things out of context has been going on in politics for my entire lifetime.
  • MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    Dura_Ace said:



    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?


    Nobody give a fuck about them. The opposition are dreaming if they think Johnson pivoting the office of PM to a Patreon model is going to move the polls.
    I certainly dont expect them to move the polls but a few of us do still care about them, and lament the current lack of standards and decency.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Cookie said:

    Mr. Eagles, your EU-fixation is showing.

    I just said that there were legitimate grounds to attack both the pay rise and the track and trace spending. That doesn't make a stupid statistical comparison anything other than stupid.

    No, I was pointing out the Tory party and their supporters yesterday were gleefully taking a quote out of context by Starmer, don't be surprised when other people start taking other things out of context to attack them.
    "Don't be surprised when other people start"?
    Taking things out of context has been going on in politics for my entire lifetime.
    Yep I'm looking forward to our MP explaining why his law firm was shut down for fraud*

    * it happened 9 months after he sold it but what is that to do with anything.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
  • kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    No it is not a private matter.

    If a Minister is financially benefiting then it needs to be transparent. Sunshine is the best disinfectant for corruption.
    I agree if public money is involved
    It applies to private money also. Do you think all the brown envelope stuff that happened in the past was ok?
    O course not
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    Ah retrospective tax, the tool of despots and kleptocrats all over the world.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Agree Max.

    The problem is that pensioners are stuffed with gold and house owners can anticipate some lovely price inflation to make them feel wealthier.

    The budget was too clever by half.

    This is early term, and Rishi had a chance to right some wrongs and set us up on a better path for growth.

    He flunked it.

    (With the exception of the investment subsidy).
    I think that is coming - the awkward tax change consultations appear on March 23rd.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,090
    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    £200k is the price of a nice semi with garden in Darlington. Wonder what they'll make of this up there?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Might be an idea to let Lawrence have a twirl.

    Posts an Essex member!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Cyclefree said:

    If it turns out that the cost is being paid either directly by taxpayers or indirectly by making it a charity (If someone's bedroom redecoration is a charity, where do you draw the line?), then I think people will indeed be outraged. If it's merely paid by some Tory chums, then most people will shrug, though if Tory HQ is paying then some of the supporters who chip in £50 to the email appeals may feel a bit miffed.

    Four points:-

    1. Taxpayers' money should not be used for extravagant interior decoration, beyond the normal appointment already budgeted for. If extra is wanted it should be paid for by the PM personally.
    2. Interior decoration is not a charitable purpose. The idea of creating a "charity" for such a purpose is simply taking the piss and unlawful under current U.K. laws.
    3. Donors funding it should not be permitted. It creates an obvious conflict of interest. It's no different from bunging the PM a few quid in the hope of some reward. Bluntly it risks being seen as - or actually being - a bribe.
    4. The PM has a very grand country house to enjoy and a 4 - bedroom flat in Central London. Let's get real: this is extravagant by any normal standards. Rather than moan about it he - and his other half - should reflect on their good fortune and enjoy it while it lasts.
    The preservation & maintenance of the interior of a historic building is certainly listed as a charitable purpose by the Charity Commissioners.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    You can be sure that future favours, ie gongs or plum contracts, will result though.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    A nurse with 10 years service already gets 10 weeks holiday
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
    No. They tend to debauch the country ethically and economically.

    See Trump, Berlusconi etc.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Actually, to his credit Starmer did say yes support the triple lock being suspended or axed. It's a wholly owned Tory policy to shaft NHS workers to pay oldies a gigantic increase in pensions while claming poverty.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    No it is not a private matter.

    If a Minister is financially benefiting then it needs to be transparent. Sunshine is the best disinfectant for corruption.
    I agree if public money is involved
    Even more important where private money is involved!

    I would have less problem with public money. It may be extravagant but isn't potentially corrupt.
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    Cyclefree said:

    If it turns out that the cost is being paid either directly by taxpayers or indirectly by making it a charity (If someone's bedroom redecoration is a charity, where do you draw the line?), then I think people will indeed be outraged. If it's merely paid by some Tory chums, then most people will shrug, though if Tory HQ is paying then some of the supporters who chip in £50 to the email appeals may feel a bit miffed.

    Four points:-

    1. Taxpayers' money should not be used for extravagant interior decoration, beyond the normal appointment already budgeted for. If extra is wanted it should be paid for by the PM personally.
    2. Interior decoration is not a charitable purpose. The idea of creating a "charity" for such a purpose is simply taking the piss and unlawful under current U.K. laws.
    3. Donors funding it should not be permitted. It creates an obvious conflict of interest. It's no different from bunging the PM a few quid in the hope of some reward. Bluntly it risks being seen as - or actually being - a bribe.
    4. The PM has a very grand country house to enjoy and a 4 - bedroom flat in Central London. Let's get real: this is extravagant by any normal standards. Rather than moan about it he - and his other half - should reflect on their good fortune and enjoy it while it lasts.
    5. The only correct course of action: Wind in the extravagance as much as you can for the remaining work, come to an agreement with the contractors on a payment schedule for the amount above allowance, pay.

    Boris is happy to be photographed with his hands in his pockets, let's see the money come out. He's allowed the overspend to go unchecked, he should take responsibility.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    We dodged a bullet though, as it could have been Jennifer Arcuri.

    She’d have installed a stripper’s pole in the kitchen, and requisitioned a bedroom as the HQ of her “digital business”.
  • MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    edited March 2021

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    A nurse with 10 years service already gets 10 weeks holiday
    One problem with 10 or so weeks holiday is that, as posted elsewhere, you can't afford to do much with all of it. Staff rotas are a bugger, too.
    Back in the day I used to get 7 weeks, plus Time in Lieu for nights and Sundays. I did know one or two people who tried to save them up for a major trip, but that was frowned upon.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    I don't know - I estimated the "schoolroom and left". This plan is probably from 1800 or similar, though. So we are very speculating.

    Time for something more serious, I think.
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074


    1.

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    How is our elected officials accepting cash bungs a private matter?

    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?
    Remember Sir Alex Allan, the PM's advisor on Ministerial standards, who resigned 3 months ago, when the PM ignored his report on Priti Patel and bullying, the same Priti Patel whose treatment of Sir Philip Rutnam has led to a rumoured payout of £340,000 to him?

    No. Not a surprise. The PM seems to have forgotten too. No replacement has been announced. There are no Ministerial standards anymore. Or, indeed, any standards in public life. Those who think there should be are stupid and/or naive old fogies. Snouts in the trough is the new and only standard.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Comedy Dave on EU blocking exports of AZN vaccine... nothing to see.

    https://youtu.be/FVPEhKGbFME
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,090
    edited March 2021

    IanB2 said:

    I was playing with that AI thingy, tasking it with coming up with Facebook content imagining I am standing for the council in May (I’m not, other than for the parish). Despite logging in via Facebook as myself, it’s pulling up a lot of content from other people in politics with the same or similar names. And its pitch is, shall we say, ‘Direct’; for example the following:

    “It’s everybody else’s fault that the town is in the state it’s in. Elect me to sort it out. I’ll put things right and make a difference.”

    It may be a while before it finds a use in political campaigning?

    Dunno, gets to the nub of the matter admirably I think.
    Direct, as I said. But I doubt voters would respond well to blaming everyone else so brazenly.

    Here are some more of its suggestions, some of which are better:

    IanB2 has an impressive track record of ensuring that residents get value for money, with waste minimised and services improved. He will continue working to ensure residents get the best deal possible.

    I am proud that the local media refer to me as the town's "frustrated accountant" and "euro-sceptic councillor" (
    where it got those from, I have no idea!)

    If you live here and want something done about the state of our town, please vote for IanB2 this May.(
    credit to it for working out the election was in May, by itself!)

    IanB2 believes it is time to give local people a voice once again

    IanB2 has grown up in Peninsular Garages - started working there as soon as he left school at the age of 15.

    That last one we can count as a 100% fail - factually incorrect in every respect, inexplicable, and with no appeal for any voter. I don't think Peninsular Garages is even a place?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,090

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
    No. They tend to debauch the country ethically and economically.

    See Trump, Berlusconi etc.
    That was my impression too, and Berlusconi's Italy is kinda where I fear we're heading.
    Are there any exceptions people would like to present?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
    But that's part of the problem, the policies aren't really anything. Not protectionist, not globally facing, not even populist tbh. At least I couldn't detect any populist policies in the budget, if it were then the NHS front line workers would be getting a tax free bonus of some kind.

    I think that's the issue, it's just nothing, if anything it feels like the kind of budget a technocratic body would come up with, very similar to Brown with really specific line by line spending items, two CT rates and a complicated taper, fiscal drag etc...

    It feels like we're back in 2005/6 where the government adopted a policy of steady state decline.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    Liked, but also wanted to say I liked, because I liked it so much.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I was at the hospital last week and this week and whilst I am sure many are knocking their socks off in covid wards etc, there are plenty with cushy numbers, good few around lollygagging and wife had two nurses to herself just for blood tests as she was only customer on one visit. Targeted as you say would be much better.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
    Time to roll out Al Tytler. Apocryphal or not it hits the spot right now.

    “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    I like TSEs point on twitter that maybe pensions should be linked to NHS pay

    NHS staff would have been significantly higher paid over the last decade as the outcry from pensioners would have been deafening
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    This story is ridiculous. I can't believe that Carrie was on the verge of forking out £200,00 for refurbishments, and then suddenly Boris got wind of it and was all queasy and shamefaced and stepped in to halt it. Most likely the pair of them were involved from the start, but now Boris's henchmen are trying to make it look like it was all Carrie's doing with Boris as the wronged party.
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    No it is not a private matter.

    If a Minister is financially benefiting then it needs to be transparent. Sunshine is the best disinfectant for corruption.
    I agree if public money is involved
    It applies to private money also. Do you think all the brown envelope stuff that happened in the past was ok?
    O course not
    There you go then. What is the difference?
  • Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
    Doctors have always been poorly paid.

    I cannot tell you the hard life I had growing up as the son of an NHS doctor.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    OT - great new (actually 3 years old) series on BBC iPlayer on the loss of HMS Erebus & Terror in the North West passage:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0954ks6/the-terror?seriesId=p0954l6v
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
    Big G.

    It is this Tory government that is responsible for keeping pensioners stuffed with gold, while ordinary working people and younger folk can only look forward to austerity.

    Or worse if you are one of the poor schmucks paying 5.6% on your university loan.

    Putting the blame on Labour is truly pathetic, you are better than that.
  • MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    OT - great new (actually 3 years old) series on BBC iPlayer on the loss of HMS Erebus & Terror in the North West passage:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0954ks6/the-terror?seriesId=p0954l6v

    Why post that here? No one watches the Beeb.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    I would probably have preferred a consolidated amount as done, plus perhaps a £10k tax free oneoff cash bonus. A 5% or a 12% or whatever is every year for the next century, and on into pensions. And a bonus would be more likely to go into the economy quickly.

    But it runs into all the same problems that we had with priority groups - everyone would want in (do you think Teachers' Unions would keep quiet), and we would have all the same arguments.

    But OTOH it is public sector working all hours who will be coming out of this relatively financially stronger already...
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
    Big G.

    It is this Tory government that is responsible for keeping pensioners stuffed with gold, while ordinary working people and younger folk can only look forward to austerity.

    Or worse if you are one of the poor schmucks paying 5.6% on your university loan.

    Putting the blame on Labour is truly pathetic, you are better than that.
    The political consensus as of now is to keep it

    I hope Rishi abolishes it next year but you cannot discount labour having ensured that it continued
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    I really think the chancellor's budget is set to fall apart by Sunday morning. The CT rise is already being labelled as investment and job killing (which it is). The treasury's own homework on it says as much as does the OBR EFO.

    As I said on the day, we should be going in the other direction. Lowering CT, putting measures in place to allow companies to invest their money in the UK and growing the economy so that we catch up to pre-COVID rates and have a higher baseline.

    This was a Tory chancellor turning a Thatcherite economy into something that looks positively French. A high debt, high tax, low yield economy that had lost its dynamism because the state is afraid of bad headlines and still manages to pick them up.

    I also see that the 1% NHS payrise has been noticed. Absolutely insulting for the frontline workers who have tirelessly battled against COVID this year. Even a one off 5% bonus would do well if they didn't want to set a higher baseline. It's a nothing amount of money either, ~£1.6bn I think for a 5% bonus.

    Thing is, we have a national-populist government. I can think of lots of examples where such governments do very well electorally. Are there any examples of countries thriving under their rule?
    Time to roll out Al Tytler. Apocryphal or not it hits the spot right now.

    “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
    Portillo used to make this point a lot on This Week.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    You are making a stout effort, but surely Carrie was only focused on wallpaper, paint and new furniture?

    Farrow and Ball’s “Breakfast Room Green” is expensive but not *that* expensive.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Did they then ask how much extra tax are you prepared to pay to fund those salaries ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Not a bad idea at all, but wait for Charles before doing it.
    I thought you meant Charles on here but he would not countenance downgrading.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited March 2021

    Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
    Doctors have always been poorly paid.

    I cannot tell you the hard life I had growing up as the son of an NHS doctor.
    My other half's mum retired as a GP around 1996 due to ill health right before the bumper pay packets began. The pay was comfortable but not whopping during your childhood years, that began post 97 iirc.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    On topic: I don't see how this damages the PM. OK, so £200k on decorations sounds utterly absurd. To most normals it also sounds impossible. Gender politics comes into effect - most married men understand what its like when their better half pushes the button on spending cash for their project. And I suspect that many women reading it will treat the story with the same outraged anti-woman tone that all of the Mail's SHE'S FAT, WHAT UGLY CLOTHES, LOOK - CELLULITE! photo exclusives.

    Shagger dumped his wife and kids whilst she was having cancer treatment, knocked up the fling, shagged a musician on the side for good measure. And people still think "he's a lad". So there are no stories of basic ethics and morality that can get him. None.

    His wife kicked him out, he didn’t dump her.
    He treated her badly that even she finally had enough and kicked him out. The real question is why she put up with him for so long.
    What has it got to do with you or anyone else for that matter? How do you know she wasn't equally awful to him if indeed he was awful.to her.
    It doesn't. I didn't start the comment thread. I was merely correcting the error that he dumped her. It was the other way around.

    Cyclefree said:

    If it turns out that the cost is being paid either directly by taxpayers or indirectly by making it a charity (If someone's bedroom redecoration is a charity, where do you draw the line?), then I think people will indeed be outraged. If it's merely paid by some Tory chums, then most people will shrug, though if Tory HQ is paying then some of the supporters who chip in £50 to the email appeals may feel a bit miffed.

    Four points:-

    1. Taxpayers' money should not be used for extravagant interior decoration, beyond the normal appointment already budgeted for. If extra is wanted it should be paid for by the PM personally.
    2. Interior decoration is not a charitable purpose. The idea of creating a "charity" for such a purpose is simply taking the piss and unlawful under current U.K. laws.
    3. Donors funding it should not be permitted. It creates an obvious conflict of interest. It's no different from bunging the PM a few quid in the hope of some reward. Bluntly it risks being seen as - or actually being - a bribe.
    4. The PM has a very grand country house to enjoy and a 4 - bedroom flat in Central London. Let's get real: this is extravagant by any normal standards. Rather than moan about it he - and his other half - should reflect on their good fortune and enjoy it while it lasts.
    The preservation & maintenance of the interior of a historic building is certainly listed as a charitable purpose by the Charity Commissioners.

    Preservation and maintenance is very different from someone wanting to do different interior decor. That presumably is what the existing £30k budget is for. Given how often the flat has been redecorated by the Camerons and Mrs May and others I doubt there is very much that is historic about the interior or the John Lewis furniture. And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
    Big G.

    It is this Tory government that is responsible for keeping pensioners stuffed with gold, while ordinary working people and younger folk can only look forward to austerity.

    Or worse if you are one of the poor schmucks paying 5.6% on your university loan.

    Putting the blame on Labour is truly pathetic, you are better than that.
    The political consensus as of now is to keep it

    I hope Rishi abolishes it next year but you cannot discount labour having ensured that it continued
    Max above notes that Keir has agreed it should be suspended (although I missed that myself).

    Presume you will hastily change your vote to Labour in principle.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    On topic - the thing I don't get is that this is hardly the worst story in the world. Boris worried about renovation costs is not Boris has undertaken secret refurbishment and got donor to pay and hidden it from the public. He seems to be condemned for something he might do in the future.

    Personally I don't think the PM should have to pay but he should also not be allowed to undertake works to a historic building. As others have said there is a flat and country house attached to being PM. Clearly Downing St is a working building of state and a conservation specialist should be in charge of building maintenance and decoration.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,462

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I agree with Foxy and you on this. I don't think an extra pay rise is appropriate, but it looks bad for Boris by not doing so. If a £1000 tax free bonus was offered to those on the frontline for cleaners, nurses, doctors below consultants, etc, etc in the budget it would have gone down well. I have no idea what that would have cost.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    BBC News - Covid-19: Ministers urged to give NHS 'heroes' better pay rise
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56288237

    The unions don't do themselves a lot of favours. 1% isn't enough, perhaps a one off payment is better, but caling for 12.5% increase.......
  • Pulpstar said:

    Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
    Doctors have always been poorly paid.

    I cannot tell you the hard life I had growing up as the son of an NHS doctor.
    My other half's mum retired as a GP around 1996 due to ill health right before the bumper pay packets began.
    It's why I'll never heard a bad word said against Blair and Brown.

    They in effect helped me get on the housing ladder at the age of 21.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    Why would you change a door , they are renting the place and rent free at that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,080

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    For a cunning CoE, an extra week or two of paid leave as a one off doesn't inflate subsequent years too.

    And investment in remedial training would truly be an investment. It is essential for both staff retention and tackling those backlogs.

    Incidentally my Trust is building in decompression time to the return of redeployed staff, many of whom like Mrs Foxy have found it very gruelling.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    If we want to replace Downing Street as government homes why not relocate across the road to the MoD buildings.

    Given the run down of the UK's military they must have plenty of space.

    Better still we could relocate the MoD somewhere else in the country - I remember a 'Yes, Prime Minister' episode on that idea.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    malcolmg said:

    If asked if their tax should double to pay for it those numbers would be sub 30K pronto. People are always happy to be generous until they have to pay for it.
    Apart from his predilection for Sindy, Malc is invariably the voice of reason.

    BTW, Malc, has Eck got anything left after the Sturgeon masterclass in obfuscation?
  • I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
    Big G.

    It is this Tory government that is responsible for keeping pensioners stuffed with gold, while ordinary working people and younger folk can only look forward to austerity.

    Or worse if you are one of the poor schmucks paying 5.6% on your university loan.

    Putting the blame on Labour is truly pathetic, you are better than that.
    The political consensus as of now is to keep it

    I hope Rishi abolishes it next year but you cannot discount labour having ensured that it continued
    Max above notes that Keir has agreed it should be suspended (although I missed that myself).

    Presume you will hastily change your vote to Labour in principle.
    I voted for Blair, but labour today are not electable, so no
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited March 2021

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    You are making a stout effort, but surely Carrie was only focused on wallpaper, paint and new furniture?

    Farrow and Ball’s “Breakfast Room Green” is expensive but not *that* expensive.
    I know because I have the up-keep of my listed "Valleys dunghill" to worry about 😁.

    Anyhow, it is a Daily Merkle story, so I expect it is mainly bollocks.

    The only relevance perhaps is this.

    We know dreary Theresa gets paid 120k a speech.

    If that is the going rate for a dumbster like Theresa, then Boris is really going to coin it as an ex-PM.

    200k will then be nothing to him then -- mebbe just an hour's work -- so these money woes (if true) do suggest that Boris is likely to piss off sooner rather than later.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
    There are quite a large number of GPs on more than £200k, which is pretty impressive when you factor in their pensions, working hours and conditions and the fact that they are largely un-sackable. Not bad for one of the few "jobs for life" that still exist. Hospital consultants salaries start at £80k plus the generous pension and go up to £110k (plus the final salary pension), and on top of that many are making considerable sums in private patients and sometimes royalties from agreements with healthcare companies. Even in non-covid times, being an NHS hospital doctor is no doddle, but it is certainly pretty much unique when you consider the perks, prestige and job security.

    Nursing staff have a case when complaining about pay and conditions. Medics, tho, are on v thin ice, particularly when so many people are losing jobs, going on furlough or taking major cuts to their income.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Go down that route and the BMA will be demanding £200k for GPs and £300k for consultants.

    Meanwhile folk in the private sector are left picking up the crumbs.
    Doctors have always been poorly paid.

    I cannot tell you the hard life I had growing up as the son of an NHS doctor.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHP-qgzUVLM
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    For a cunning CoE, an extra week or two of paid leave as a one off doesn't inflate subsequent years too.

    And investment in remedial training would truly be an investment. It is essential for both staff retention and tackling those backlogs.

    Incidentally my Trust is building in decompression time to the return of redeployed staff, many of whom like Mrs Foxy have found it very gruelling.
    I imagine the danger of offering just an extra weeks holiday is that it can easily be spun as "that won't pay the mortgage"...."what am I supposed to do with it, I can't afford to go anywhere".
This discussion has been closed.