Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

On the day that a Times poll has the Tories 13% ahead it will be Mail that will get the most attenti

12467

Comments

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,781
    Cyclefree said:



    1.

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    How is our elected officials accepting cash bungs a private matter?

    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?
    Remember Sir Alex Allan, the PM's advisor on Ministerial standards, who resigned 3 months ago, when the PM ignored his report on Priti Patel and bullying, the same Priti Patel whose treatment of Sir Philip Rutnam has led to a rumoured payout of £340,000 to him?

    No. Not a surprise. The PM seems to have forgotten too. No replacement has been announced. There are no Ministerial standards anymore. Or, indeed, any standards in public life. Those who think there should be are stupid and/or naive old fogies. Snouts in the trough is the new and only standard.
    No, its not stupid or naive to expect standards. They will come back in fashion eventually and those who ignore them currently should be shamed, even if they neither feel personally ashamed nor suffer electorally for it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,799
    England doing an England in the cricket...
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I agree with Foxy and you on this. I don't think an extra pay rise is appropriate, but it looks bad for Boris by not doing so. If a £1000 tax free bonus was offered to those on the frontline for cleaners, nurses, doctors below consultants, etc, etc in the budget it would have gone down well. I have no idea what that would have cost.
    And it should have been given to them in time for shops, pubs and restaurants opening up. A flat figure would have been worth more to those on lower salaries who would also be most likely to spend it soon and in the UK.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,081

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    For a cunning CoE, an extra week or two of paid leave as a one off doesn't inflate subsequent years too.

    And investment in remedial training would truly be an investment. It is essential for both staff retention and tackling those backlogs.

    Incidentally my Trust is building in decompression time to the return of redeployed staff, many of whom like Mrs Foxy have found it very gruelling.
    I imagine the danger of offering just an extra weeks holiday is that it can easily be spun as "that won't pay the mortgage"...."what am I supposed to do with it, I can't afford to go anywhere".
    Well NHS staff will all be the first ones off on foreign jollies with their fasttracked Covid jabs
  • NestacresNestacres Posts: 17
    edited March 2021
    The Daily Mail turned against Boris once the remainer Georide Greig took over and have lambasted him and the government every day since lockdown started, using Piers Morgan as a mouthpiece. If Tory Mail readers were bothered, they wouldnt be ahead in nearly every poll.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    You are making a stout effort, but surely Carrie was only focused on wallpaper, paint and new furniture?

    Farrow and Ball’s “Breakfast Room Green” is expensive but not *that* expensive.
    I know because I have the up-keep of my listed "Valleys dunghill" to worry about 😁.

    Anyhow, it is a Daily Merkle story, so I expect it is mainly bollocks.

    The only relevance perhaps is this.

    We know dreary Theresa gets paid 120k a speech.

    If that is the going rate for a dumbster like Theresa, then Boris is really going to coin it as an ex-PM.

    200k will then be nothing to him then -- mebbe just an hour's work -- so these money woes (if true) do suggest that Boris is likely to piss off sooner rather than later.
    If it listed, I assume your dung-hill is of great architectural or historic merit.

    Was it, perhaps, the last known midden of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,901

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
    Bidey-ins for we North British.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,981
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    For a cunning CoE, an extra week or two of paid leave as a one off doesn't inflate subsequent years too.

    And investment in remedial training would truly be an investment. It is essential for both staff retention and tackling those backlogs.

    Incidentally my Trust is building in decompression time to the return of redeployed staff, many of whom like Mrs Foxy have found it very gruelling.
    @Foxy

    What do you get for a feel of the 50k increase planned in nurse numbers over the Parliament.

    The last numbers I saw said they were 12k up on the year. How do you see that going?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,837

    I may have mentioned it a few times on here but the focus groups have consistently picked up on the monies spent on track & trace and on contracts that seem to end up with Tory donors but what is really egregious is the fact the contracts are seemingly to those inexperienced and unqualified to deliver them.

    It is a bonanza for Tory donors, pensioners are safe, and austerity for the rest of us.

    We locked down to save granny, but granny doesn’t give a shite.
    You really are very unpleasant today.

    This pensioner does care and expects the triple lock to go, indeed it would have but for labour who decided they wanted it to stay for some strange reason (politics)
    Wait, so it is Labour’s fault?

    Wow. You have severe Stockholm Syndrome.
    The continuation of the triple lock was a labour commitment like it or not
    When?
    GE 2019
    Remind me who won that election?
    I do recall Corbyn lost it.
    The labour 2019 manifesto stated

    We will maintain the ‘triple lock’ and
    guarantee the Winter Fuel Payment,
    free TV licences and free bus passes
    as universal benefits.

    It is still labour policy unless you can show me where they have rejected it since December 2019
    Big G.

    It is this Tory government that is responsible for keeping pensioners stuffed with gold, while ordinary working people and younger folk can only look forward to austerity.

    Or worse if you are one of the poor schmucks paying 5.6% on your university loan.

    Putting the blame on Labour is truly pathetic, you are better than that.
    The political consensus as of now is to keep it

    I hope Rishi abolishes it next year but you cannot discount labour having ensured that it continued
    Good to see that you are falling in with @TheJezziah in agreeing that actually Labour under Jeremy Corbyn won the last election.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    Why would you change a door , they are renting the place and rent free at that.
    Well, things do wear out, you know. Things do need replacing every now and then. Particularly in an older property.

    The only point I am trying to make is it is not reasonable to compare the maintenance & up-keep of the fabric of 10 Downing Street to a family home.

    It is a heritage property and it will be more costly.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Nestacres said:

    The Daily Mail turned against Boris once the remainer Georide Greig took over and have lambasted him and the government every day since lockdown started, using Piers Morgan as a mouthpiece. If Tory Mail readers were bothered, they wouldnt be ahead in nearly every poll.

    Always nice to hear the latest ludicrous spin from Conservative Central Office. Thank you
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I agree with Foxy and you on this. I don't think an extra pay rise is appropriate, but it looks bad for Boris by not doing so. If a £1000 tax free bonus was offered to those on the frontline for cleaners, nurses, doctors below consultants, etc, etc in the budget it would have gone down well. I have no idea what that would have cost.
    £1.5bn approx.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,981

    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I agree with Foxy and you on this. I don't think an extra pay rise is appropriate, but it looks bad for Boris by not doing so. If a £1000 tax free bonus was offered to those on the frontline for cleaners, nurses, doctors below consultants, etc, etc in the budget it would have gone down well. I have no idea what that would have cost.
    And it should have been given to them in time for shops, pubs and restaurants opening up. A flat figure would have been worth more to those on lower salaries who would also be most likely to spend it soon and in the UK.
    Scottish Gov tried a £500 bonus last Christmas and got hammered for it: "derisory". Same problem as 1% pay rise in the circs. Remember how Gordon Brown was kebabbed for the pennies pension rise?

    Having seen it said, I do like the idea of 2 weeks extra hol, perhaps with a bonus to do something special with it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,743
    F1: the 'totally not a flag' livery of Haas is being investigated:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367777213576282112

    and Portugal's going to be the third round, which I think means I need to amend my spreadsheet. Bugger:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367766578436202498
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,837
    Cyclefree said:

    And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog.

    I think you'll find that most big houses are populated by plenty of both.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    kjh said:

    kjh said:



    However on the point you thought I was making about prices - they do seem somewhat high, but I suspect we are talking about different things when we say refurbishing. However I suspect there are also some decorators who charge a lot more for the same service to the gullible rich.

    I think the point is that -- in a building like No 10 -- you will need to use heritage craftspeople, not trustatrader.

    If you need to replace a door, or some flooring, or a toilet cistern, then it will have to be constructed bespoke because the building & its interior is listed.

    The bespoke door or flooring will need to be made by a craftsman. The cistern may have to be sourced from a specialist dealer or made bespoke.

    That is how historic, listed buildings work.😉

    I have no idea whether the DM story is true, whether the sum is 200k, but your analogy was always ridiculous.
    I agree with the point you are making but we are talking about order of magnitude here. It is gross. And we are talking about decoration and furnishings. Now going back to my house (no please don't) my stairs and porch are solid oak and handmade. So how do you account for that difference? None of the stuff you mention even if by craftsman should cost this unless you are paying through the nose.
    Your stairs and porch are bespoke solid oak, sure.

    But if you replace something in Downing Street -- say a door -- then it will have to be exactly the same as the original.

    In practice, this will need to be a bespoke door made by a craftsperson in the same style as the original and with the same original material (if it can even be still sourced).

    The rates charged by heritage craftspeople are very different from the rates charged by builders. It is a completely different scale, and it probably is an order of magnitude.

    (As the building is listed, then any changes will need listed building consent, and so this will be insisted upon -- it is not Boris' and PNN's choice).
    You are making a stout effort, but surely Carrie was only focused on wallpaper, paint and new furniture?

    Farrow and Ball’s “Breakfast Room Green” is expensive but not *that* expensive.
    I know because I have the up-keep of my listed "Valleys dunghill" to worry about 😁.

    Anyhow, it is a Daily Merkle story, so I expect it is mainly bollocks.

    The only relevance perhaps is this.

    We know dreary Theresa gets paid 120k a speech.

    If that is the going rate for a dumbster like Theresa, then Boris is really going to coin it as an ex-PM.

    200k will then be nothing to him then -- mebbe just an hour's work -- so these money woes (if true) do suggest that Boris is likely to piss off sooner rather than later.
    I wish he would get on with it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,185

    Cyclefree said:



    1.

    Jonathan said:

    The bottom line is that decorating number ten should not be a priority at this moment. It's a total indulgence.

    And it is a private matter unless public money is involved which as I understand it is not the case
    How is our elected officials accepting cash bungs a private matter?

    What on earth has happened to standards in public life?
    Remember Sir Alex Allan, the PM's advisor on Ministerial standards, who resigned 3 months ago, when the PM ignored his report on Priti Patel and bullying, the same Priti Patel whose treatment of Sir Philip Rutnam has led to a rumoured payout of £340,000 to him?

    No. Not a surprise. The PM seems to have forgotten too. No replacement has been announced. There are no Ministerial standards anymore. Or, indeed, any standards in public life. Those who think there should be are stupid and/or naive old fogies. Snouts in the trough is the new and only standard.
    No, its not stupid or naive to expect standards. They will come back in fashion eventually and those who ignore them currently should be shamed, even if they neither feel personally ashamed nor suffer electorally for it.
    They'll come back eventually... The only question is how bad things have to get first.

    At the moment, Pinocchio is still on Pleasure Island.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Cyclefree said:



    Preservation and maintenance is very different from someone wanting to do different interior decor. That presumably is what the existing £30k budget is for. Given how often the flat has been redecorated by the Camerons and Mrs May and others I doubt there is very much that is historic about the interior or the John Lewis furniture. And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog.

    This is nonsense. If the interior is listed, then preservation & maintenance of the interior will be a legitimate charitable purpose, as defined by the Charity Commissioners. Its maintenance will include suitable interior decoration (e.g. paint or wallpaper in the appropriate style). Any changes to the interior fabric will need listed building consent, and they will have to be appropriate & signed off by heritage experts.

    "And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog"

    You seem to be completely unaware that lots of people live in buildings with listed interiors. And they have children and pets.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,901
    The Tele employing a deranged, Covid denying anti-vaxxer? How could that have happened?

    https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1367779343393562624?s=20
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pants on fire.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,081
    Stokes is cream crackered
  • MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
    Bidey-ins for we North British.
    I've never heard of the term Bidey-in before.

    Is it a benign term or does it have a judgmental/disapproving tone that might get me slapped if I used towards a Scot?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    MattW said:

    kjh said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    I agree with Foxy and you on this. I don't think an extra pay rise is appropriate, but it looks bad for Boris by not doing so. If a £1000 tax free bonus was offered to those on the frontline for cleaners, nurses, doctors below consultants, etc, etc in the budget it would have gone down well. I have no idea what that would have cost.
    And it should have been given to them in time for shops, pubs and restaurants opening up. A flat figure would have been worth more to those on lower salaries who would also be most likely to spend it soon and in the UK.
    Scottish Gov tried a £500 bonus last Christmas and got hammered for it: "derisory". Same problem as 1% pay rise in the circs. Remember how Gordon Brown was kebabbed for the pennies pension rise?

    Having seen it said, I do like the idea of 2 weeks extra hol, perhaps with a bonus to do something special with it.
    The problem is that whatever is offered people will immediately demand more.

    So governments might as well start with a small offer in the expectation that they will have to pay more whatever they do.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
    You do know that the all the Crown Estate's income already goes directly to the Treasury, don't you?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    If it listed, I assume your dung-hill is of great architectural or historic merit.

    Was it, perhaps, the last known midden of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd?

    Many famous Welshmen have taken a dump on my dung-hill.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,901

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
    Bidey-ins for we North British.
    I've never heard of the term Bidey-in before.

    Is it a benign term or does it have a judgmental/disapproving tone that might get me slapped if I used towards a Scot?
    There certainly used to be a curtain twitching element to it but it's pretty harmless nowadays, can be used in an ironic, post modern way without getting a slap.

    We may be almost at the point when the last Church of Scotland minister has been strangled by the last copy of the Sunday Post.
  • Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
    You do know that the all the Crown Estate's income already goes directly to the Treasury, don't you?
    And has done for centuries yes, "the crown" belongs to the country and is not the plaything of the House of Windsor - but that should be made official and irreversible once we become a republic.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    A woman for our times.....

    Keep it up Carrie. Labour and the other good guys need all the help they can get
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
    Bidey-ins for we North British.
    I've never heard of the term Bidey-in before.

    Is it a benign term or does it have a judgmental/disapproving tone that might get me slapped if I used towards a Scot?
    Surely you should use the term Scotchman? Afterall, Mr Divvie thinks, in his nationalistic divisive mind, that all English people refer to his countrymen as such does he not?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    OMFG!!!! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1367770518636683269
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295



    If it listed, I assume your dung-hill is of great architectural or historic merit.

    Was it, perhaps, the last known midden of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd?

    Many famous Welshmen have taken a dump on my dung-hill.
    I hope they secured Council permission in advance.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,388
    edited March 2021

    Cyclefree said:



    Preservation and maintenance is very different from someone wanting to do different interior decor. That presumably is what the existing £30k budget is for. Given how often the flat has been redecorated by the Camerons and Mrs May and others I doubt there is very much that is historic about the interior or the John Lewis furniture. And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog.

    This is nonsense. If the interior is listed, then preservation & maintenance of the interior will be a legitimate charitable purpose, as defined by the Charity Commissioners. Its maintenance will include suitable interior decoration (e.g. paint or wallpaper in the appropriate style). Any changes to the interior fabric will need listed building consent, and they will have to be appropriate & signed off by heritage experts.

    "And if it is indeed a historic interior a la Kedleston Hall then it is wholly unsuitable to be lived in by a couple with toddler and dog"

    You seem to be completely unaware that lots of people live in buildings with listed interiors. And they have children and pets.
    What surprises me is that no-one who has been involved with redecoration in the past ..... think Cherie Blair ...... has thought about fund-raising to do so.

    Or if they did, has followed the thought through.
  • MattW said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    RobD said:

    kjh said:

    I can't grasp how it is possible to spend £200k on a decoration unless you have more money than sense. I spent a similar amount between 2012 and 2014 but that got me a huge oak porch, a large extension to the garage, new heating to 17 room house, a massive patio, a concrete raised pond demolished and filled in, new natural style pond dug, new oak staircase, walls demolished and new walls built with several beams, 4 bathrooms bought and fitted and a kitchen and utility room, etc, etc.

    Oh and decorated.

    A couple of years ago we bought a terrace house in Southwold. Gutted, new kitchen, bathroom, electrics and heating for about £20k.

    Oh and decorated.

    Admit it, you just made this comment for the humblebrag about your £200k refurb. ;)
    Nope. I suspect there are several on here who can outbrag me. I know I am lucky to be able to afford it, but how else do you make the point that £200k on a flat is ridiculous.

    I am also retired. It is the consequence of two well paid older individuals who aren't gullible and waste money on overpriced stuff.
    As a rule of thumb for a complete refurbishment London is about £150-£200 psf for a flat.

    I don’t know how large their flat is but if it is being totally redone I’m not surprised by the price.
    I would say the same, but that includes rewiring and plumbing etc.

    How big is the bloody flat anyway.
    PB Decor Service, at your Service

    It's 4 bedroom. The Daily Mail has an article about the last 3 makeovers. 64k for the Camerons for a bathroom, kitchen area, and new floor and ceiling. Dualit toaster and Britannia Range Cooker.

    And 127k over several years for the Blairs. But then Cherie probably made more money than Boris, and did not have umpteen former husbands.

    Here's the old plan, which you can access on the site mentioned I assume. It is some of this:



    I will refrain from adding the Hello photos, unless you ask nicely.

    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9316209/The-modern-makeovers-Number-11-Downing-Street.html
    You say its 4 bedroom but that floor plan shows - between No 10 and No 11 - a total of 18 bedrooms. How much of that do they have to refurbish?
    Not that much, the issue is that Mrs May followed David Cameron's & Margaret Thatcher's lead that the taxpayer shouldn't lavish Number 10 but Ms Symonds really doesn't like Mrs May's John Lewis nightmare choice of decor.
    If she doesn't like it she should pay for the changes herself. I can understand making changes/redecorating because of wear and tear but it should be within a fixed budget and on a fixed timescale - every so many years. And both those should be decided by someone other than the PM and his current sleeping partner.
    There's an annual £30k maintenance budget for the PM and their spouse to use on the upkeep for Downing Street.

    Clearly that's not enough for Boris Johnson and his inamorata.
    What’s the plural of inamorata?
    Or is it already a plural.
    Google tells me the plural of inamorata is inamoratas.
    Bidey-ins for we North British.
    I've never heard of the term Bidey-in before.

    Is it a benign term or does it have a judgmental/disapproving tone that might get me slapped if I used towards a Scot?
    There certainly used to be a curtain twitching element to it but it's pretty harmless nowadays, can be used in an ironic, post modern way without getting a slap.

    We may be almost at the point when the last Church of Scotland minister has been strangled by the last copy of the Sunday Post.
    Thanks, I'm trying to think of my Scottish friends who have a bidey-in and asking how they are doing.

    For my Scottish friends, me using Scottish vernacular amuses them greatly, something akin to hearing the Queen swearing.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    Marina Wheeler is a barrister - why does he have to support her ?

    Most of his children are adults - why does he have to support them ?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    When he leaves office the country's finances will look like a facsimile of his own.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
    You do know that the all the Crown Estate's income already goes directly to the Treasury, don't you?
    And has done for centuries yes, "the crown" belongs to the country and is not the plaything of the House of Windsor - but that should be made official and irreversible once we become a republic.
    Why on earth would we want to do that?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    I see the hashtag #toryscum is trending. I wonder if the angry of Islington will ever realise that most people even they think something is wrong don't live in a perpetual state of outrage and hatred all the time, and this is actually putting the average person off.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    F1: the 'totally not a flag' livery of Haas is being investigated:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367777213576282112

    and Portugal's going to be the third round, which I think means I need to amend my spreadsheet. Bugger:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367766578436202498

    Reaching Casino levels of anger here. F1 absolutely fucks the braking areas of tracks rendering them poor for bike track days. Portimao was my favourite on a bike...
  • Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    Marina Wheeler is a barrister - why does he have to support her ?

    Most of his children are adults - why does he have to support them ?
    There are least two children who are nowhere near close to adulthood.

    As for the support of Ms Wheeler, I believe he needs to help pay off the mortgage they took out.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    The betting implications of Nut Nut's Grand Designs are obvious: Johnson is not going anywhere any time soon.

    #nutnutmustfall
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
    You do know that the all the Crown Estate's income already goes directly to the Treasury, don't you?
    And has done for centuries yes, "the crown" belongs to the country and is not the plaything of the House of Windsor - but that should be made official and irreversible once we become a republic.
    Why on earth would we want to do that?
    Why not?

    The alternative suggested is that if we become a republic then the House of Windsor could decide they no long desire for the Crown Estates income to go to the exchequer and want to keep it for themselves instead. That should not be an option, the Crown Estates in reality belong to the country and that needs to be made official as part of ending the monarchy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,799
    edited March 2021

    I see the hashtag #toryscum is trending. I wonder if the angry of Islington will ever realise that most people even they think something is wrong don't live in a perpetual state of outrage and hatred all the time, and this is actually putting the average person off.

    I don't think a day goes by without tories / tory leader at the time out... didn't cameron out hashtag trend for months in a row...then he won a GE outright.

    Talking of outraged of Islington, no sign of Jezza having had his jab in his twitter timeline, where as most / all MPs see it as public duty to tell everybody they have had it and then tell everybody to go get it. Maybe he has been listening to his brother?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    When he leaves office the country's finances will look like a facsimile of his own.
    So with no dodges despite his political opponents assuming there was? 🤔
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,388

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    When he leaves office the country's finances will look like a facsimile of his own.
    So with no dodges despite his political opponents assuming there was? 🤔
    were!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    So what you're saying is he's not dodgy and plays by both the spirit and letter of the tax rules despite people assuming he would be dodging his taxes?

    And that's a criticism?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,388
    edited March 2021

    TBH I can't believe that, given the plethora of new Schools of Pharmacy at universities over the past 10 or so years that there's a shortage of pharmacists.

    And when I look at pharmacy chat forums there appears to be a shortage of work, not people to do it.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,677
    Why did they feel the need to do it 'quietly'?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,899

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    IIRC didn't it turn out that it was Ken who was the one who was making use of all the tax avoidance tricks? And Boris did basically nothing to minimise his taxes.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,255

    Why did they feel the need to do it 'quietly'?
    Was it done quietly. The press seem to both want a press release for everything and not to be disturb by anything that isn't of interest to them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,681

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    So what you're saying is he's not dodgy and plays by both the spirit and letter of the tax rules despite people assuming he would be dodging his taxes?

    And that's a criticism?
    In the same way that someone might praise Donald Trump for getting away with not paying tax at all...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,781
    glw said:

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    IIRC didn't it turn out that it was Ken who was the one who was making use of all the tax avoidance tricks? And Boris did basically nothing to minimise his taxes.
    Tell that to the IRS!
  • Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    So what you're saying is he's not dodgy and plays by both the spirit and letter of the tax rules despite people assuming he would be dodging his taxes?

    And that's a criticism?
    No, after that he changed his financial position around to be more tax efficient.

    But he admitted like most authors he needs to write a new book to help pay the tax on his old book, something which he cannot do whilst being a minister/Prime Minister.

    As his ex boss noted, he didn't resign as Foreign Secretary for principle, more he needed the money.
  • glw said:

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    IIRC didn't it turn out that it was Ken who was the one who was making use of all the tax avoidance tricks? And Boris did basically nothing to minimise his taxes.
    Yup, it was amusing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,542

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    For a cunning CoE, an extra week or two of paid leave as a one off doesn't inflate subsequent years too.

    And investment in remedial training would truly be an investment. It is essential for both staff retention and tackling those backlogs.

    Incidentally my Trust is building in decompression time to the return of redeployed staff, many of whom like Mrs Foxy have found it very gruelling.
    I imagine the danger of offering just an extra weeks holiday is that it can easily be spun as "that won't pay the mortgage"...."what am I supposed to do with it, I can't afford to go anywhere".
    Many Trusts operate a scheme like my own, where with managerial agreement leave can be bought and sold. On the whole though the leave should be taken. It is a psychological restorative.

    We know from work with military PTSD and combat fatigue that short periods of rest and group discussion are very effective at maintaining morale and cohesion. This can be both formal counselling or informal R and R in the style of @Dura_Ace.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238
    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    Marina Wheeler is a barrister - why does he have to support her ?

    Most of his children are adults - why does he have to support them ?
    There are least two children who are nowhere near close to adulthood.

    As for the support of Ms Wheeler, I believe he needs to help pay off the mortgage they took out.
    So two kids and part of a mortgage.

    Even at Eton and Mayfair prices that's a few weeks 'earnings' for an ex Prime Minister.
  • GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
  • F1: the 'totally not a flag' livery of Haas is being investigated:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367777213576282112

    That is totally not a flag. How outrageous of people to suggest that it is :D

  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    The voters of Clywd South say hello.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,047

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Yep. He'll be selling out the Palladium. I picture him making the crowd wait, excitement building, and then on he comes, riding a unicycle in wibbly wobbly fashion around the stage as the people chuckle and roar.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,542

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    Marina Wheeler is a barrister - why does he have to support her ?

    Most of his children are adults - why does he have to support them ?
    It is perhaps because Wheeler is a Barrister, and Johnson is impecunious that he has been fleeced!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,470
    MaxPB said:

    Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    So what you're saying is he's not dodgy and plays by both the spirit and letter of the tax rules despite people assuming he would be dodging his taxes?

    And that's a criticism?
    In the same way that someone might praise Donald Trump for getting away with not paying tax at all...
    That someone would be Donald Trump!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    The voters of Clywd South say hello.
    LOL!

    I guess it still grates that Cameron and Osborne were scrabbling around to try and get a majority in 2010 an 2015 and then along comes Boris and gets an 80 seat majority in 2019... ;)
  • Even if it is 200k why doesn't Boris pay for it himself ?

    After he leaves politics he'll be able to 'earn' that much by giving a speech or two.

    Boris Johnson is not a man of sound personal finances.

    Remember back in 2008 when Ken Livingstone challenged Boris Johnson to publish his tax returns hoping to find tax dodges only to find that Johnson was on PAYE for everything and paying way more tax than he should than if he went limited liability.

    Remember Johnson has two ex wives and countless kids to support.

    I suspect every future bit of income is already spoken for.
    Marina Wheeler is a barrister - why does he have to support her ?

    Most of his children are adults - why does he have to support them ?
    There are least two children who are nowhere near close to adulthood.

    As for the support of Ms Wheeler, I believe he needs to help pay off the mortgage they took out.
    So two kids and part of a mortgage.

    Even at Eton and Mayfair prices that's a few weeks 'earnings' for an ex Prime Minister.
    At *least* two kids.

    I think his other issue is that if he had a consistent income level for the last decade or so it wouldn't be an issue, but when not being Foreign Secretary/PM he's been able to earn decent outside income, so over the last five years he's only been able to rely on that once in five years has impacted him.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    MaxPB said:

    It interesting that Boris Johnson has been more focussed on getting the money for doing up Number 10 than say feeding starving kids.

    Marcus Rashford really has shamed him on that front.

    I dont actually mind public money being spent on the refurb, but pretending its a charitable cause or hoping for cash bungs is out of order.
    Agree, I've said for years the entire Downing Street complex is unsuitable for the leader of our country.

    Kick Brenda out of Buckingham Palace and move the PM and most of the government there.

    It costs the country nothing.
    Isn't there hundreds of millions worth of refurbishment to do to Buckingham palace as well that the crown estate currently pays for? Unless of course you're suggesting we expropriate that too?
    350 million pounds worth of renovations. The Crown would still pay for that, think of it as all the backdated income tax the Queen and her antecedents failed to pay.
    There shouldn't be anything backdated but anything belonging to "The Crown" including the full Crown Estates should belong to the country upon becoming a republic.

    The Royals should be thanked for their service and given a generous payoff and pension.
    You do know that the all the Crown Estate's income already goes directly to the Treasury, don't you?
    And has done for centuries yes, "the crown" belongs to the country and is not the plaything of the House of Windsor - but that should be made official and irreversible once we become a republic.
    Why on earth would we want to do that?
    Why not?

    The alternative suggested is that if we become a republic then the House of Windsor could decide they no long desire for the Crown Estates income to go to the exchequer and want to keep it for themselves instead. That should not be an option, the Crown Estates in reality belong to the country and that needs to be made official as part of ending the monarchy.
    I meant why on earth would we want to become a republic? Having seen the example of Republicans in the US I for one would not want to go anywhere near that idea.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,542
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    Not yet, but just wait. As old Enoch foresaw, all political careers end in failure.
  • F1: the 'totally not a flag' livery of Haas is being investigated:
    https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1367777213576282112

    That is totally not a flag. How outrageous of people to suggest that it is :D

    What is even sillier is that they can't even claim it is the colours of their sponsor. Uralkali use Red and Green as their corporate colours. So not only have they put Russian flag colours on the wings, the side of the nose and the engine colour, they have changed Uralkali to use the same Russian flag colours.

    Haas still claims to be "America's #F1 team".
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    The voters of Clywd South say hello.
    LOL!

    I guess it still grates that Cameron and Osborne were scrabbling around to try and get a majority in 2010 an 2015 and then along comes Boris and gets an 80 seat majority in 2019... ;)
    It doesn't.

    Dave started on 198 MPs, thanks to Dave's hard work, Boris Johnson started on 317 MPs, it would have been 331 MPs but for Mrs May.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,081
    I've just backed England. Which means I'll lose £20.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,681
    What a way to get a century!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,047

    Pants on fire.

    Having been dropped?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:



    We know from work with military PTSD and combat fatigue that short periods of rest and group discussion are very effective at maintaining morale and cohesion. This can be both formal counselling or informal R and R in the style of @Dura_Ace.

    Also...

    In my experience it's really important to try to retain people in the institution after the period of maximum trauma so they are in a somewhat familiar structure. Leaving everything behind immediately might seem like a good idea but my observation is that it's not.

    I am sure there will be plenty of people who feel like quitting the NHS after the Goldman Sachs Elf's 1% kick in the teeth but the conditions for recovery and recuperation are worse on the outside.

    I went straight from the mean streets of Basra to unemployed in four days and was utterly lost. I went into my parents' garden shed and stayed in it for nearly a year talking only to the dog. Comrades who experienced far worse than me but stayed in for a few years in a low pressure job seemed to cope much better.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,542


    TBH I can't believe that, given the plethora of new Schools of Pharmacy at universities over the past 10 or so years that there's a shortage of pharmacists.

    And when I look at pharmacy chat forums there appears to be a shortage of work, not people to do it.
    I suspect it is like Medicine. The shortage is not newly qualified rookies, needing training and supervision, but rather in specialist areas.

    This is where the loss of mutual recognition of EEA postgraduate qualifications counts. We can recruit House officers, but not Consultants from abroad.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Iain Dale in ConHome:

    The EU has no interest in Northern Ireland’s future prosperity. It just sees it as a mechanism to exert its power. It is a constitutional outrage that British companies are not free to trade without restriction to all parts of the sovereign United Kingdom. The checks that are now being demanded by the EU are so disproportionate as to be totally unreasonable. The British government bent over backwards to make a compromise to meet EU concerns that the Single Market could be compromised, but its goodwill has been exploited at every turn.

    At some point this has to stop, and the unilateral extension of the grace period is the inevitable consequence of EU inflexibility. It is not, as the Irish government unhelpfully says, a breach of international law. What it is, is a sign that Britain’s patience with the EU on this issue is about to expire.


    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2021/03/iain-dale-the-eu-has-no-interest-in-northern-irelands-future-prosperity-it-just-sees-it-as-a-mechanism-to-exert-its-power.html

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,485
    edited March 2021

    I see the hashtag #toryscum is trending. I wonder if the angry of Islington will ever realise that most people even they think something is wrong don't live in a perpetual state of outrage and hatred all the time, and this is actually putting the average person off.

    To win Labour have two big jobs, neither close to being done yet: They have to explain convincingly what they are for when we have a Heseltine + Brexit+ populist style government spending money like water.

    And they have to convince millions of people currently inclined to vote Tory that they don't believe that they are 'scum', 'vermin' etc but that they are bright centrists who vote both with their hearts and heads.

    The Labour membership have lost so many Rochdale Pioneers (see yesterday's brilliant analysis) that the remaining ones are unable to get the point that you cannot get people to vote for you by calling them scum. This alone renders them unfit to govern.

    This is hard, but the first problem - What is Labour for? - is harder.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,481
    edited March 2021

    Iain Dale in ConHome:

    The EU has no interest in Northern Ireland’s future prosperity. It just sees it as a mechanism to exert its power. It is a constitutional outrage that British companies are not free to trade without restriction to all parts of the sovereign United Kingdom. The checks that are now being demanded by the EU are so disproportionate as to be totally unreasonable. The British government bent over backwards to make a compromise to meet EU concerns that the Single Market could be compromised, but its goodwill has been exploited at every turn.

    At some point this has to stop, and the unilateral extension of the grace period is the inevitable consequence of EU inflexibility. It is not, as the Irish government unhelpfully says, a breach of international law. What it is, is a sign that Britain’s patience with the EU on this issue is about to expire.


    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2021/03/iain-dale-the-eu-has-no-interest-in-northern-irelands-future-prosperity-it-just-sees-it-as-a-mechanism-to-exert-its-power.html

    Ah yes, Iain Dale, the convicted criminal who used to say it was project fear to warn that Brexit might lead to problems in Northern Ireland says we should listen to him on Northern Ireland.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    The voters of Clywd South say hello.
    LOL!

    I guess it still grates that Cameron and Osborne were scrabbling around to try and get a majority in 2010 an 2015 and then along comes Boris and gets an 80 seat majority in 2019... ;)
    It doesn't.

    Dave started on 198 MPs, thanks to Dave's hard work, Boris Johnson started on 317 MPs, it would have been 331 MPs but for Mrs May.
    That explains 2010. But 2015?

    Whichever way you cut it Boris Johnson is the most successful Tory politician since Mrs Thatcher and it doesn't look like his election winning run will be ending in 2023 if these midterm polls are anything to go by. :open_mouth:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,542
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:



    We know from work with military PTSD and combat fatigue that short periods of rest and group discussion are very effective at maintaining morale and cohesion. This can be both formal counselling or informal R and R in the style of @Dura_Ace.

    Also...

    In my experience it's really important to try to retain people in the institution after the period of maximum trauma so they are in a somewhat familiar structure. Leaving everything behind immediately might seem like a good idea but my observation is that it's not.

    I am sure there will be plenty of people who feel like quitting the NHS after the Goldman Sachs Elf's 1% kick in the teeth but the conditions for recovery and recuperation are worse on the outside.

    I went straight from the mean streets of Basra to unemployed in four days and was utterly lost. I went into my parents' garden shed and stayed in it for nearly a year talking only to the dog. Comrades who experienced far worse than me but stayed in for a few years in a low pressure job seemed to cope much better.
    Yes, I would heartily agree. Sometimes being put in charge of the paperclips for a while is the right thing to do before getting back to either frontline or discharge.

    Veterans services are very poor in the UK.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854
    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    That was what Marie Antoinette thought.
  • Looks like the fake news posting has stopped, so I will return briefly.

    Starmer should be looking to Cameron and dare I say it Howard for inspiration. They took the Tory Party from 2001 losing in another landslide to governing from 2010.

    Realistically the best Labour could hope for IMHO, is a reverse 2010 situation, so how does that happen?

    Well a war didn't help - don't think we'll being seeing that.

    There was a GFC which the Tories - and I hate them for it but strategically it was genius - managed to blame on Labour. During 2007 Brown way way ahead of Cameron on "most capable PM" and that had reversed by 2009, I can surely put that down to the crash, at least in part - and Labour's supposed role in it, specifically Brown's as Chancellor.

    Now we can see why Labour is trying to play a reverse Cameron and make out the economy was screwed before COVID and to put the blame for our being so badly impacted (still remains to be seen) on the Tories, who have been in Government for over 10 years.

    That's the strategy - now Labour needs to actually have an alternative vision, as Cameron had one, even if in hindsight it was a disaster.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238
    Con +10%? Tactical voting to get the SNP out?
  • https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1367790037102960641

    I know it won't win him any points but I really do agree with him on the fact that during COVID we want the Government to do well. I am delighted with the vaccine rollout - it's been fantastic. We should not be scared to praise where it goes well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,370

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    A nurse with 10 years service already gets 10 weeks holiday
    One problem with 10 or so weeks holiday is that, as posted elsewhere, you can't afford to do much with all of it. Staff rotas are a bugger, too.
    Back in the day I used to get 7 weeks, plus Time in Lieu for nights and Sundays. I did know one or two people who tried to save them up for a major trip, but that was frowned upon.
    This is certainly a huge problem in many private companies. A lot of the staff people I work with who get 25 days a year plus public but who also have to do additional time for operations and get it in lieu will get to the end of the year and find they still have 3 or 4 weeks worth of holiday that they just can't take. Most companies have a 'use it or lose it' policy as they can't afford to have staff build up huge amounts of holiday time and as a result giving people extra holiday time as a reward is pretty pointless.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284
    algarkirk said:

    I see the hashtag #toryscum is trending. I wonder if the angry of Islington will ever realise that most people even they think something is wrong don't live in a perpetual state of outrage and hatred all the time, and this is actually putting the average person off.

    To win Labour have two big jobs, neither close to being done yet: They have to explain convincingly what they are for when we have a Heseltine + Brexit+ populist style government spending money like water.

    And they have to convince millions of people currently inclined to vote Tory that they don't believe that they are 'scum', 'vermin' etc but that they are bright centrists who vote both with their hearts and heads.

    The Labour membership have lost so many Rochdale Pioneers (see yesterday's brilliant analysis) that the remaining ones are unable to get the point that you cannot get people to vote for you by calling them scum. This alone renders them unfit to govern.

    This is hard, but the first problem - What is Labour for? - is harder.

    What is Labour for? To provide a viable alternative government for the Conservative Party seems to be a good answer to me...
  • Keith on the radio rightly talking about the real terms pay cut announced for the NHS staff doing such a brilliant job in vaccinating us. Whilst he is absolutely right and the Tories are egregiously taking the piss, I don't think he will land a punch.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    Well Boris Johnson has been sacked twice for being liar.
    Never by the electorate though... ;)
    The voters of Clywd South say hello.
    But, Boris -- dumbo though he is -- would at least have got the name of the constituency right.

    You can't even do that.

    It is Clwyd South.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238
    edited March 2021
    Roger said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see the Mail's campaign against Boris and Carrie going anywhere. When it comes to stories like this Boris is like Blair - Teflon.

    That was what Marie Antoinette thought.
    I hope are aren't implying the delightful Carrie will be facing the Guillotine soon! She only wants to do a bit home improvement... would be a bit of an overreaction I think... ;)
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Two genuinely stupid moves by Johnson yesterday and both can easily be linked. The first is this story about the No 10 refit which is just crass and stupid. It says Johnson is worried - well he bloody well should be. And if the story is true then he should be ashamed.

    The second story - which for me is linked - is the idiotic decision to give NHS staff a pay rise below inflation. It just looks callous and makes a mockery of all the claims about how important they are and how much they are valued.

    Yes things are tough and yes we can't keep splashing taxpayers money around all over the place without regard for the debt but a 1% pay rise is £340 million. So go for 5% and make it meaningful. As the study by the London Economics consultancy shows the Government will get most of that back anyway in increased taxes.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/18/government-pay-rise-cost-nhs-england-staff-report

    As OGH says. Very poor optics across the board yesterday for Johnson.

    Agree 100%. I can live without a pay rise for next year - it would be nice but times are tough and I’m aware others are ahead in the queue - but after the year they’ve had NHS medical staff definitely deserve one. Especially nursing staff.

    I actually think this ridiculously low one for a small number is worse than none at all. It looks tokenistic.
    Personally, I have no problem with 1%, and a blanket payrise for all NHS staff is poorly targeted.

    An extra 2 weeks paid holiday for all those who worked in covid units, to be taken later in the year for recovery would be my suggestion.

    As would be investment in training, so redeployed staff are not punished for not acquiring the skills that they should have been developing. My registrar has been on covid ICU for 3 months so has missed a large chunk of her Specialist Training. She is at risk of missing career progression as a result.
    Paid holiday is a great idea. Give them all £1,000 tax free to spend on it too.

    But the next couple of years are also going to see the NHS under extreme stress as they deal with the vast backlog of treatment deferred. The staff are going to be under the cosh into the mid-distance.

    And politically, unlike the NHS there are going to be so many people in the private sector who have lost their jobs, taken pay cuts, lost pensions. They might also rightly claim they have made a huge sacrifice in these times of Covid.
    A nurse with 10 years service already gets 10 weeks holiday
    One problem with 10 or so weeks holiday is that, as posted elsewhere, you can't afford to do much with all of it. Staff rotas are a bugger, too.
    Back in the day I used to get 7 weeks, plus Time in Lieu for nights and Sundays. I did know one or two people who tried to save them up for a major trip, but that was frowned upon.
    This is certainly a huge problem in many private companies. A lot of the staff people I work with who get 25 days a year plus public but who also have to do additional time for operations and get it in lieu will get to the end of the year and find they still have 3 or 4 weeks worth of holiday that they just can't take. Most companies have a 'use it or lose it' policy as they can't afford to have staff build up huge amounts of holiday time and as a result giving people extra holiday time as a reward is pretty pointless.
    "Holiday that they just can't take" is not a concept that has ever occurred to me before, but then I have never been given any choice as to when my holiday time will be.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Floater said:

    OMFG!!!! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1367770518636683269

    Don’t knock it. Chris Waddle would definitely have scored his penalty had he not cut his off!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,238

    Excuses, excuses, excuses.

    He's not cutting the mustard. That's all there is to it.
This discussion has been closed.