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Polling Klaxon: Why you shouldn’t read too much into a small subsample, see this Scottish subsample

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 28 in General
Polling Klaxon: Why you shouldn’t read too much into a small subsample, see this Scottish subsample as the perfect example – politicalbetting.com

Calm down, that's a sub sample with a massive MOE, it is next to useless. https://t.co/CMfWE40Bbl

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926
    First
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 32,646
    Second rate Scottish subsample.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 34,764
    Third
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    About 10th.
  • SmithersSmithers Posts: 24
    This is an interesting piece. Just wonder however if it should be set in the context of what appears to be a clear fall in support for Scottish independence?

    4 polls in a row now have shown that support for independence has fallen. I know that the SNP Holyrood and Indy votes are not synonymous but they’re closely related

    And all of this before Alex Salmond’s evisceration of Sturgeon & Co.

    I suspect that this tiny sub sample may be a bellweather.

    https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2021/02/has-the-constitutional-wind-changed-direction/

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19082212.scottish-independence-support-falls-first-time-since-december/



  • SmithersSmithers Posts: 24
    If New Zealand carries on lockdowns after 1 case then they will quite simply never re-open to the world.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    Thank-you for the piece, @TSE .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Smithers said:

    If New Zealand carries on lockdowns after 1 case then they will quite simply never re-open to the world.

    Well, you need widespread (65+%) vaccine adoption at a very least.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 23,276
    Foggy this morning; seem that the sun and blue sky of yesterday has left us.

    On topic, does this represent a straw in the wind for independence, or simply a reaction to the shenanigans between the present and former Leaders of the SNP?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Glengyle said:

    A bellweather indeed. A sample of 154 might not contain precise information but it does contain some information, namely a powerful hint that SNP support is being hit. It is only in the past couple of days, with Alex Salmond's appearance (and whatever the rights and wrongs involved, an impressive appearance) before the Holyrood Committee, that this latest phase of the SNP civil war has achieved full media traction i.e. lead story status. We can expect at least another week of this, only 10 weeks before the Holyrood election. It is entirely conceivable that the SNP will fail to achieve the seats they need to legitimate their demand for another referendum. Now is not the time to interpret, or dismiss, individual polls in isolation. Each is a clue which is part of a fast-moving story.

    1) It’s a sub sample. It’s like taking a few posts from Topping or Malcolm and saying all discussion on PB consists of pointless abuse, when such we know is not the case.

    2) If there is a hit to SNP support, it is more likely to be showing up in the next fortnight or so as Salmond’s appearance and the further documentation play out. Equally, Sturgeon has yet to respond and may be able to defeat or at least deflect the allegations against her.

    So for all those reasons I am ignoring this sub sample.

    However - and it is a big however - the current situation probably means pollsters shouldn’t be polling subsamples in Scotland at the moment because the dynamic is so different from England and Wales right now. Either they should be concentrating on England and Wales and doing Scotland separately, or they should be sampling Scotland much more throughly in any overall poll (which I suppose amounts to the same thing). Otherwise they will always be slightly overstating Blue and Red support and laying themselves wide open to random fluctuations among the Yellows.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Sandpit said:

    So, last day of the Test match, a finely poised game, and with the day/night format in India being a great time zone for millions of families in the UK, all set to generate one of the largest TV sport audiences of the year, the biggest for cricket since 2005 and inspiring so many kids to pick up a bat and a ball.

    Oh...

    What is the score?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    edited February 28
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, last day of the Test match, a finely poised game, and with the day/night format in India being a great time zone for millions of families in the UK, all set to generate one of the largest TV sport audiences of the year, the biggest for cricket since 2005 and inspiring so many kids to pick up a bat and a ball.

    Oh...

    What is the score?
    Home Umpires 2 Umpires of Ability 1
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268
    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268
    It 's a mystery indeed. Time for 'mutti' to take one in the arm for the team and 'macca' for one in the derriere for France?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035
    rcs1000 said:

    Smithers said:

    If New Zealand carries on lockdowns after 1 case then they will quite simply never re-open to the world.

    Well, you need widespread (65+%) vaccine adoption at a very least.
    They'll reopen, likely requiring proof of vaccination.
    Right now they've got a 100% unvaxxed population though.
    They're being rightly cautious for their position
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    edited February 28
    I've just watched Salmond's opening statement that I missed yesterday. A decent summary of the charges he is making. Plus a kit of Kinnock-style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCrmvnWcaQ
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,149
    Good morning, everyone.

    *bellwether

    A wether is a castrated ram. One with a bell around its neck leads the flock.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268

    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 32,646
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    So, last day of the Test match, a finely poised game, and with the day/night format in India being a great time zone for millions of families in the UK, all set to generate one of the largest TV sport audiences of the year, the biggest for cricket since 2005 and inspiring so many kids to pick up a bat and a ball.

    Oh...

    What is the score?
    Indian groundsmen and umpires 1 - 0 Inspiring the next generation of cricketers.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Worth comparing the statistical rationale for not interpreting sub-sample estimates in political polling versus sub-group estimates in vaccine trial RCTs.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,379
    MattW said:

    I've just watched Salmond's opening statement that I missed yesterday. A decent summary of the charges he is making. Plus a kit of Kinnock-style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCrmvnWcaQ

    Talking of Kinnock -this has to be the best impression of him- take it away Steve Coogan!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY7aqvR9oD0
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    Good morning, everyone.

    *bellwether

    A wether is a castrated ram. One with a bell around its neck leads the flock.

    Appropriate, given Scottish subsamples are all cock.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    To the extent that one can trust polls to tell you anything, by far the most interesting results here are overwhelming support both for the road map and for the end of restrictions. This would lead one to believe that folk are willing to listen to the entreaties to stick with it for a few months longer whilst the jabs continue to be rolled out, but then expect the walls of the open prison we're all presently trapped in to be demolished. Backing for lockdown remains, but is now strictly time-limited.

    In other news, it's reported this morning that around two million people aged 60-63 are to receive booking letters from Monday, so if they've not already been called up for vaccination then one assumes that they should be able to book this coming week. That completes Cohort 7, so just the fiftysomethings left to go after that to clear Phase One. Happy days :smile:
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,449

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1365926854159454208?s=20

    The leading large nation, far ahead of the US and, more gallingly for us frothing Remoaners, miles ahead of Europe. Nothing could be more depressing for the honest self-loathing liberal Brit. You know the type. Recycle assiduously but fly once a fortnight.

    Part of me feels sorry for the journalist. The relentless grind of having to continually produce copy inevitably means from time to time you have to write tosh like that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 34,764
    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    Shocking that 15% want Dilyn rehoused. I never knew the heartless party had such support (other than the 42%, obvs)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 49,939
    Britain’s scientific response to the pandemic has been a mirror image of its political one. Although the government’s scientific advisers share blame for the original sin—the delayed response in March—they have since run a world-leading campaign. Alongside vast clinical trials, the country has been home to most of the world’s genetic sequencing, the development of a successful jab and its fast roll-out. Elite institutions, streamlined regulation and big datasets are a potent combination—as, it turns out, are close links between business, academia and government.

    https://amp.economist.com/britain/2021/02/27/how-british-science-came-to-the-rescue?__twitter_impression=true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1365926854159454208?s=20

    The leading large nation, far ahead of the US and, more gallingly for us frothing Remoaners, miles ahead of Europe. Nothing could be more depressing for the honest self-loathing liberal Brit. You know the type. Recycle assiduously but fly once a fortnight.

    We must be thankful for the cricketers. Presumably reading about the vaccination rates from their bubble in Gujarat, they took the trouble to engineer one of their most craven defeats in memory. When everything else is looking up, it’s nice to have failures you can rely on.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    It's a bit bloody late now, ain't it? One can imagine the reaction from the sceptical:

    'It's a fiddle, they're bigging it up because they're desperate. It will still kill all my sperm and let Bill Gates read my brainwaves with his microchips, just like before they oh-so-mysteriously changed their minds. No thanks matey.'
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,484
    Sturgeon resigned yet ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    edited February 28

    Britain’s scientific response to the pandemic has been a mirror image of its political one. Although the government’s scientific advisers share blame for the original sin—the delayed response in March—they have since run a world-leading campaign. Alongside vast clinical trials, the country has been home to most of the world’s genetic sequencing, the development of a successful jab and its fast roll-out. Elite institutions, streamlined regulation and big datasets are a potent combination—as, it turns out, are close links between business, academia and government.

    https://amp.economist.com/britain/2021/02/27/how-british-science-came-to-the-rescue?__twitter_impression=true

    Does the "twitter_impression=true" mean it gets delivered in words of fewer syllables? :wink:
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    Shocking that 15% want Dilyn rehoused. I never knew the heartless party had such support (other than the 42%, obvs)
    I see overnight the latest delta poll had con 42 % lab 38 %
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    Shocking that 15% want Dilyn rehoused. I never knew the heartless party had such support (other than the 42%, obvs)
    How about poor old Larry?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 49,939
    It has been more than six years since Alex Salmond was First Minister but he continues to haunt Scottish politics. The Ghost of Holyrood Past took physical form in Committee Room No 1, the Robert Burns Room, where what has come to be known as the Salmond Inquiry was picking over the best-laid schemes o’ mice, men and First Ministers.

    https://stephendaisley.com/2021/02/27/the-ghost-of-holyrood-past-returns-to-haunt-sturgeon/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    edited February 28
    Today is the 20th anniversary of the Selby railway accident:

    Selby rail crash: Disaster remembered 20 years on
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-56085631

    I suppose it says something for the extraordinary safety record of the railways in recent years that that’s the last but one mainline accident in which more than one passenger was killed, and the only one in the 21st century with a fatality count in double figures.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    edited February 28
    Yesterday I was asking about powers within Section 23 of the Scotland Act for the Parliament to demand documents using a "Section 23 Notice".

    This is an exchange I had over on LDV, which adds a little more light. Not quite exactly what I was after, but it helps.

    Q:
    "Salmond’s last act (literally the last 90 seconds of 6 hours) was to invite the Committee to serve a “reveal evidence” notice on his solicitor to access all the evidence held about the previous Court Actions under Section 23 of the Scotland Act – a “Section 23” Notice – which may will leapfrog all of the blockages. At least one committee member has already said they will pursue it.

    Is it possible that Malcolm Bruce, or one of the other knowledgeable LDV contributors who know the Holyrood setup more intimately than me, can comment on the process and implications of Alex Salmond’s offer?"


    A: from a commenter called 'Hireton', which does add some useful info.
    It looks like Salmond must be referring to information which was revealed to the defence by the Crown Office for the purposes of the trial.

    As I understand it under Scots law, this may only be used for the defence and any subsequent appeals and not disclosed or used for any other purpose. So it seems unlikely that his defence team could reveal it.

    We know that Salmond’s team tried to argue in front of Lady Dorrian in pre-trial hearings that certain evidence should be allowed to be put before the Court. She ruled that it was inadmissible and there was no appeal from his team against that ruling. This may be the same evidence.

    It seems highly unlikely that if the defence team had credible evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct the ends of justice that it would be ruled as inadmissible or that, if it was, they would not have appealed against Lady Dorrian’s ruling.

    You may recall that Salmond and his supporters previously argued that WhatsApp messages between the complainants revealed evidence of a conspiracy between them and SNP officials. In a highly controversial move the Parliamentary Committee used its powers to obtain the messages from the Crown Office only to return them almost immediately when it became apparent they were simply messages of mutual support and had no bearing on its inquiry. Rape Crisis Scotland issued a statement on behalf of the women which is worth reading criticising both the Committee and the Crown Office.


    The statement from RCS adds further context.
    https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/blogs/news/1004/redir/
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Today is the 20th anniversary of the Selby railway accident:

    Selby rail crash: Disaster remembered 20 years on
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-56085631

    I suppose it says something for the extraordinary safety record of the railways in recent years that that’s the last but one mainline accident in which more than one passenger was killed, and the only one in the 21st century with a fatality count in double figures.

    Yes I remember it well worked for the police through that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,538
    An excellent piece of poll watching TSE. You're far too modest.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    edited February 28
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    Link to the comment I quoted from LDV above for a credit:
    https://www.libdemvoice.org/whither-scottish-nationalism-67083.html?#comment-549967
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,538

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    I hear she needs a bit of excitement so she's thinking of going for the vacant Lady Mayoress of Ludlow
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Today is the 20th anniversary of the Selby railway accident:

    Selby rail crash: Disaster remembered 20 years on
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-56085631

    I suppose it says something for the extraordinary safety record of the railways in recent years that that’s the last but one mainline accident in which more than one passenger was killed, and the only one in the 21st century with a fatality count in double figures.

    Yes I remember it well worked for the police through that.
    Must have been a pretty grim experience. However you look at the statistics, they’re horrifying. Frankly, I am amazed that there were so many survivors.
  • https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1365926854159454208?s=20

    The leading large nation, far ahead of the US and, more gallingly for us frothing Remoaners, miles ahead of Europe. Nothing could be more depressing for the honest self-loathing liberal Brit. You know the type. Recycle assiduously but fly once a fortnight.

    Part of me feels sorry for the journalist. The relentless grind of having to continually produce copy inevitably means from time to time you have to write tosh like that.
    That's a bizarre article. The UK has utterly fucked up its response to pandemic management and absolutely aced its vaccine development and deployment. These are not either/or, it can be - and IS - both. Its not at all confusing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Roger said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    I hear she needs a bit of excitement so she's thinking of going for the vacant Lady Mayoress of Ludlow
    Clerk to Handsforth Parish Council, shurely?

    As the Improper Officer...
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    I hear she needs a bit of excitement so she's thinking of going for the vacant Lady Mayoress of Ludlow
    Clerk to Handsforth Parish Council, shurely?

    As the Improper Officer...
    Lacks the gravitas.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,538
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Yorkcity said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
    I don’t think she can actually be subjected to mind control to write a letter of resignation, if that’s what you’re asking.

    I think the more interesting question is whether either the Scottish Parliament or Boris Johnson have the power to dismiss her if it is found she does breach the ministerial code.

    The former clearly have the power, but may choose not to exercise it - the latter may not, but would doubtless use it if he thought he had (hypocritical though it would be given Patel).

    What this shows is we need a proper process of impeachment, maybe by a two-thirds vote of the Commons and Lords in common assembly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    edited February 28
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,538
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.
    You can and it's relatively easy.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
    I don’t think she can actually be subjected to mind control to write a letter of resignation, if that’s what you’re asking.

    I think the more interesting question is whether either the Scottish Parliament or Boris Johnson have the power to dismiss her if it is found she does breach the ministerial code.

    The former clearly have the power, but may choose not to exercise it - the latter may not, but would doubtless use it if he thought he had (hypocritical though it would be given Patel).

    What this shows is we need a proper process of impeachment, maybe by a two-thirds vote of the Commons and Lords in common assembly.
    Isn’t a bit easier than that for us? If 50% + 1 of the Commons don’t support you, you’re out because you hold no direct mandate. Same in Hollyrood. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Let the voters take a view later if the Parliament won’t take one now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    I like it too, but it's a bit jubilant for 50/50.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,035
    Hopefully we will break 20 million first jabs today
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.
    You can and it's relatively easy.
    Then by all means go and do it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    Shocking that 15% want Dilyn rehoused. I never knew the heartless party had such support (other than the 42%, obvs)
    How about poor old Larry?
    Hes an employee.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
    I don’t think she can actually be subjected to mind control to write a letter of resignation, if that’s what you’re asking.

    I think the more interesting question is whether either the Scottish Parliament or Boris Johnson have the power to dismiss her if it is found she does breach the ministerial code.

    The former clearly have the power, but may choose not to exercise it - the latter may not, but would doubtless use it if he thought he had (hypocritical though it would be given Patel).

    What this shows is we need a proper process of impeachment, maybe by a two-thirds vote of the Commons and Lords in common assembly.
    Isn’t a bit easier than that for us? If 50% + 1 of the Commons don’t support you, you’re out because you hold no direct mandate. Same in Hollyrood. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Let the voters take a view later if the Parliament won’t take one now.
    The issue is that Parliament is whipped. So Patel would have been safe even if a vote of confidence had been called in her.

    I suppose in theory Parliament could vote to remove Sturgeon or suspend Holyrood, but my goodness what a row that would cause.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703

    Your occasional reminder of what was being said around this time last year...

    The UK faces having to wait longer and pay more to acquire a coronavirus vaccine because it has left the EU, health experts and international legal experts warn today.

    In an article published today on the Guardian website, the academics and lawyers say Boris Johnson’s determination to “go it alone”, free of EU regulation, after Brexit means the UK will probably have to join other non-EU countries in a queue to acquire the vaccine after EU member states have had it, and on less-favourable terms.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive

    I was one persuaded by such things, but it's pretty clear i and they were just going on gut feeling. Being an academic or legal expert definitely didn't prevent them from pretending a gut feeling was based on actual analysis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 40,502
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    Shocking that 15% want Dilyn rehoused. I never knew the heartless party had such support (other than the 42%, obvs)
    How about poor old Larry?
    Hes an employee.
    Surely he’s the boss?
    https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1364195862142984197
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    The reference is to 'ethnic minority' - of course as always the Tories were way ahead of the pack...
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
    I don’t think she can actually be subjected to mind control to write a letter of resignation, if that’s what you’re asking.

    I think the more interesting question is whether either the Scottish Parliament or Boris Johnson have the power to dismiss her if it is found she does breach the ministerial code.

    The former clearly have the power, but may choose not to exercise it - the latter may not, but would doubtless use it if he thought he had (hypocritical though it would be given Patel).

    What this shows is we need a proper process of impeachment, maybe by a two-thirds vote of the Commons and Lords in common assembly.
    Isn’t a bit easier than that for us? If 50% + 1 of the Commons don’t support you, you’re out because you hold no direct mandate. Same in Hollyrood. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Let the voters take a view later if the Parliament won’t take one now.
    The issue is that Parliament is whipped. So Patel would have been safe even if a vote of confidence had been called in her.

    I suppose in theory Parliament could vote to remove Sturgeon or suspend Holyrood, but my goodness what a row that would cause.
    I meant the Scottish Parliament. I think it works - we all know Patel should have gone but she didn’t because of the Tory party, and we can take that into account in 2024. Likewise, if the SNP doesn’t remove Sturgeon then it takes the electoral risks going forward.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 33,173
    Adonis comparing against a very very low bar there. Anas has been here before and got hammered, just a case of when they are having their next "leader" election. He is super lightweight and more right wing than the Tories.
  • felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
    It is at best contentious to describe Jews as an ethnic minority. PB is never at its best on race issues.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,079
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.
    You can and it's relatively easy.
    Then by all means go and do it.
    Lol.
  • malcolmg said:

    Adonis comparing against a very very low bar there. Anas has been here before and got hammered, just a case of when they are having their next "leader" election. He is super lightweight and more right wing than the Tories.
    Great to see you back, Malc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    It's being a bit casual on terminology and thus creating an easy thing to poke at, which is unfortunate. I vaguely recall reading a piece last year about such things around MPs, with the first Asian mps ignored when.

    Things often happen earlier than we think as they can go backwards. There were briefly some black senators in the 1860s, then not again for 100 years or so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
    It is at best contentious to describe Jews as an ethnic minority
    I wasnt aware that was a contentious point. It seems to be the typical classification, ethnoreligious issues aside.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,385

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    In other news, it's reported this morning that around two million people aged 60-63 are to receive booking letters from Monday
    Most frustrating g aspect of the vaccine program has been the antiquated reliance on mass letter send outs.

    The NHS app should have been upgraded in advance to allow for vaccine notifications / end of day stock use based on location.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 28,079
    kle4 said:

    I like it too, but it's a bit jubilant for 50/50.
    My crystal ball forecasts a quick swivel from a sotto voce ‘you’re not getting a referendum cos you’d win it’ to a bellow of ‘you’re not getting a referendum cos you’d lose it, what’s the point?’
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,268

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
    It is at best contentious to describe Jews as an ethnic minority. PB is never at its best on race issues.
    The Spectator:
    Are Jews BAME? Jews are recognised by provisions in the Race Relations Act as a distinct racial group. Judaism is an ethno-religious grouping. Within living memory, two thirds of Europe’s Jews were murdered on account of their ethnicity; the Nazis were keen to include in their slaughter even those with no cultural or religious ties to Judaism. Yet in the 21st Century, despite the continued killing in Europe of Jews for being Jewish, some consider Jews to be the beneficiaries of ‘white privilege’.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    Does she have to if she broke the ministerial code in Scotland ?
    Priti Patel did not in England.
    I don’t think she can actually be subjected to mind control to write a letter of resignation, if that’s what you’re asking.

    I think the more interesting question is whether either the Scottish Parliament or Boris Johnson have the power to dismiss her if it is found she does breach the ministerial code.

    The former clearly have the power, but may choose not to exercise it - the latter may not, but would doubtless use it if he thought he had (hypocritical though it would be given Patel).

    What this shows is we need a proper process of impeachment, maybe by a two-thirds vote of the Commons and Lords in common assembly.
    Isn’t a bit easier than that for us? If 50% + 1 of the Commons don’t support you, you’re out because you hold no direct mandate. Same in Hollyrood. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Let the voters take a view later if the Parliament won’t take one now.
    Us? Scotland is us, too.
    kle4 said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
    It is at best contentious to describe Jews as an ethnic minority
    I wasnt aware that was a contentious point. It seems to be the typical classification, ethnoreligious issues aside.
    Perhaps the term to revisit is BAME.

    Not that that helps Jewish people, though :smile: .
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,181
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.
    That's not true. It is possible but difficult. My cousin's daughter did so to marry her Jewish boyfriend and we all then had a very jolly Irish-Jewish wedding near Harrogate a few years back.

    Could someone please explain - briefly - why Salmond and Sturgeon fell out. I thought they were best mates. So why would she be - allegedly - trying to put him in prison?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    DavidL said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    No and she is not going to. There are 2 SNP muppets and an ex Green sock-puppet on the committee who will protect her regardless of the evidence. Fraser and Baillie are outgunned. The Lib Dems seem too stupid to contribute anything of note. At worst the head of our Civil Service will take early retirement on a generous package.

    I'd like to think that this would cause both Sturgeon and her party real damage. It should. But it won't. People support the SNP because they want independence. Not because they are competent, honest, trustworthy or whatever. Its a very happy situation for a political party to be in.

    Only the vague suspicion that Sturgeon is rather too fond of the trappings of office and doesn't want to risk a second referendum has caused murmurings in the ranks. A Sturgeon with a manifesto of a second referendum in the next Parliament will prevail over her domestic critics and all too probably over the opposing parties as well.
    Is it even possible that the committee will get talked out until the Election?

    Court challenge on something?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited February 28
    JonathanD said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    In other news, it's reported this morning that around two million people aged 60-63 are to receive booking letters from Monday
    Most frustrating g aspect of the vaccine program has been the antiquated reliance on mass letter send outs.

    The NHS app should have been upgraded in advance to allow for vaccine notifications / end of day stock use based on location.
    Probably too complex an IT operation to be attempted, especially at short notice. We all know what happens when "NHS" meets "new IT system". Although I believe that at least some recipients have been notified by text and invited to book into mass vaccination centres, rather than having to wait for old fashioned letters. I'm pretty sure that's how my Dad (73) ended up getting his appointment.

    One would imagine that, with the capacity and apparent efficiency of the distribution system, there isn't a significant problem with leftover supply.

    Beyond that, snail mail continues to have its place. A significant fraction of the population doesn't own a smartphone, the NHS won't have the current number for a great many of those that do, and not nearly everyone who owns one leaves it on the whole time and regularly checks it either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 42,918
    If Hong Kong had been hundreds of miles from the Chinese mainland, if we'd had a 999 year lease on the new territories or a permanent concession, or if China had been a smaller less militarised and rational democracy - like Spain - Hong Kong would either still be British, like Gibraltar or Bermuda, or it would be independent within the Commonwealth with very strong ties to Britain, like Singapore.

    We handed it back because we had no choice, and nor did the Hong Kong people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 66,703

    JonathanD said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    In other news, it's reported this morning that around two million people aged 60-63 are to receive booking letters from Monday
    Most frustrating g aspect of the vaccine program has been the antiquated reliance on mass letter send outs.

    The NHS app should have been upgraded in advance to allow for vaccine notifications / end of day stock use based on location.
    Probably too complex an IT operation to be attempted, especially at short notice. We all know what happens when "NHS" meets "new IT system". Although I believe that at least some recipients have at least been notified by text and invited to book into mass vaccination centres, rather than having to wait for old fashioned letters. I'm pretty sure that's how my Dad (73) ended up getting his appointment.

    One would imagine that, with the capacity and apparent efficiency of the distribution system, there isn't a significant problem with leftover supply.

    Beyond that, snail mail continues to have its place. A significant fraction of the population doesn't own a smartphone, the NHS won't have the current number for a great many of those that do, and not nearly everyone who owns one leaves it on the whole time and regularly checks it either.
    True, people get quite irritated with me for not picking up or responding swiftly, as I often leave in another room and dont check it all day.

    For now, letters are needed at least as backup.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 38,440
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    Sturgeon resigned yet ?

    No and she is not going to. There are 2 SNP muppets and an ex Green sock-puppet on the committee who will protect her regardless of the evidence. Fraser and Baillie are outgunned. The Lib Dems seem too stupid to contribute anything of note. At worst the head of our Civil Service will take early retirement on a generous package.

    I'd like to think that this would cause both Sturgeon and her party real damage. It should. But it won't. People support the SNP because they want independence. Not because they are competent, honest, trustworthy or whatever. Its a very happy situation for a political party to be in.

    Only the vague suspicion that Sturgeon is rather too fond of the trappings of office and doesn't want to risk a second referendum has caused murmurings in the ranks. A Sturgeon with a manifesto of a second referendum in the next Parliament will prevail over her domestic critics and all too probably over the opposing parties as well.
    Is it even possible that the committee will get talked out until the Election?

    Court challenge on something?
    Very possible. The way things are going it is quite likely that Crown Office will demand changes to the report and who knows how long that might take?

    A bit like the report on the desperate state of Scottish education that is on Swinney's desk but will not be published until after the election. These things happen in a one party state.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,333

    I got Pfizered last week, a surgery local to my station is offering a shot to emergency services when they have any vaccines going spare. I was in and out in just over 20 minutes (I managed to convince them I didn't need to sit down for 15 minutes). Absolutely no side effects so far. A mate who had a jab the same day who is a copper has been shivering and crying all weekend. Proof, if it were needed, that we are the premier emergency service.

    I spoke to a guy aged ~20 who had the jab because he has got a job at a vaccine hub. He said he woke in the middle of the night with violent shivers and spent 24 hours with a horrible fever. His dad, on the other hand, was completely unaffected. According to Dr Campbell on YouTube you get a worse reaction if you have had the bug, even if you didn't know about it. Also at his age, I suppose his immune reaction might be particularly strong.
  • The claims about Sarwar are unfortunate for Labour:
    1. Sarwar is not the leader of a political party
    2. Were he the leader of a party he wouldn't be the first BAME leader - multiple Jewish leaders
    3. Labour exceptionalism at its worst - only Labour apparently can have an interest in anti-racism apparently
    4. Labour saying that Jews Don't Count. Again.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Wrong type of ethnic minority?
    It is at best contentious to describe Jews as an ethnic minority. PB is never at its best on race issues.
    The Spectator:
    Are Jews BAME? Jews are recognised by provisions in the Race Relations Act as a distinct racial group. Judaism is an ethno-religious grouping. Within living memory, two thirds of Europe’s Jews were murdered on account of their ethnicity; the Nazis were keen to include in their slaughter even those with no cultural or religious ties to Judaism. Yet in the 21st Century, despite the continued killing in Europe of Jews for being Jewish, some consider Jews to be the beneficiaries of ‘white privilege’.
    Have a look at the census in a couple of weeks. There was some debate as to whether Jews would be an option and tbh I cannot remember which way it was settled.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 8,766
    edited February 28

    JonathanD said:

    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    In other news, it's reported this morning that around two million people aged 60-63 are to receive booking letters from Monday
    Most frustrating g aspect of the vaccine program has been the antiquated reliance on mass letter send outs.

    The NHS app should have been upgraded in advance to allow for vaccine notifications / end of day stock use based on location.
    Probably too complex an IT operation to be attempted, especially at short notice. We all know what happens when "NHS" meets "new IT system". Although I believe that at least some recipients have been notified by text and invited to book into mass vaccination centres, rather than having to wait for old fashioned letters. I'm pretty sure that's how my Dad (73) ended up getting his appointment.

    One would imagine that, with the capacity and apparent efficiency of the distribution system, there isn't a significant problem with leftover supply.

    Beyond that, snail mail continues to have its place. A significant fraction of the population doesn't own a smartphone, the NHS won't have the current number for a great many of those that do, and not nearly everyone who owns one leaves it on the whole time and regularly checks it either.
    Even text message reminders etc are not Universal yet.

    They deliver a benefit in all the circs I know eg in appointment attendance rates, but eg my local GP only made it routine a year ago after trials.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 23,276
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ed Miliband been unpersoned in Scotland over 2015?
    Is he the first Asian leader of a major UK political party ?
    Yes, if you don’t count Johnson (which for all my mischievous trolling, you probably shouldn’t). And I fully agree that is a good thing. And I have no doubt he will be the first of many.

    But ‘ethnic minority’ and ‘Asian’ are not quite the same thing. All Asians in this country are members of an ethnic minority, but not all ethnic minorities are Asian.

    The annoying thing about this claim he is the first EM leader of a political party is it distracts from the real achievement that you highlight above.
    Thanks I said yesterday ethnic minority my mistake .
    His family have done very well from coming to Scotland a few generations ago.
    From hearing his acceptance speech, which was good.
    Hardly your mistake, it’s Labour that were pushing that line.

    Even Bastani pulled them up over it, although he forgot Sir John Simon:
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365636159632781315
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1365649793037516802

    Edit - not Sir John Simon, Sir Herbert Samuel!
    If Jews are BAMEs does that mean you can convert to BAMEhood?
    It is almost impossible to ‘convert’ to Judaism. It is not like Islam or Christianity. The only effective way to do it is to marry somebody who is Jewish.

    Could someone please explain - briefly - why Salmond and Sturgeon fell out. I thought they were best mates. So why would she be - allegedly - trying to put him in prison?
    Ms Cyclefree I'm also puzzled. And the fact that none of the experts on this board have come on in the last 10 or so minutes suggests that's there a lot more to it than meets the eye.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,538
    felix said:


    Some interesting polling especially on the leaders:


    It's like one of those fill in the missing words on HIGNFY. This week it's 'Goldfish Monthly'

    (This garbage could only be the Mail surely?)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 8,138
    It seems weird, if not creepy, to keep referring to Michael Howard as “BAME”.
This discussion has been closed.